Hi all,

Having bought a Tivo many years ago (well 3 or 4) and thinking it would have 
a lifespan of a year or 2 until something better came along I did not take 
out the lifetime subscription.

Now having upgraded the disk & fitted an Ethernet card it is like one of the 
family and I have the dilemma of should I subscribe or not (I know I should 
have originally).

I am quite happy to replace the disk should that die and probably the power 
supply, is there anything else that is likely to break which would could not 
be repaired ?.

Resident Drunk wrote:
> Having bought a Tivo many years ago (well 3 or 4) and thinking it
> would have a lifespan of a year or 2 until something better came
> along I did not take out the lifetime subscription.

£10/month vs £200 lifetime, yes I ended up paying £10/month for
years too. Fiver years on, and there really isn't anything better out
there, HDTV is the only reason to move IMO.

> Now having upgraded the disk & fitted an Ethernet card it is like one
> of the family and I have the dilemma of should I subscribe or not (I
> know I should have originally).

I`d do it now, as they've just stopped US lifetime subs - they lose
money, you gain after 20 months.

> I am quite happy to replace the disk should that die and probably the
> power supply, is there anything else that is likely to break which
> would could not be repaired ?.

Should the motherboard fail then complete tivos are only £100 on
ebay,  and tivo will transfer a lifetime sub from one machine to
another anyway.

-- 
Mike

"Mike Redrobe"  wrote in message 
news:AlcQf.33504$wl.30939@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
> Resident Drunk wrote:
>> Having bought a Tivo many years ago (well 3 or 4) and thinking it
>> would have a lifespan of a year or 2 until something better came
>> along I did not take out the lifetime subscription.
>
> £10/month vs £200 lifetime, yes I ended up paying £10/month for
> years too. Fiver years on, and there really isn't anything better out
> there, HDTV is the only reason to move IMO.
>
>> Now having upgraded the disk & fitted an Ethernet card it is like one
>> of the family and I have the dilemma of should I subscribe or not (I
>> know I should have originally).
>
> I`d do it now, as they've just stopped US lifetime subs - they lose
> money, you gain after 20 months.
>
>> I am quite happy to replace the disk should that die and probably the
>> power supply, is there anything else that is likely to break which
>> would could not be repaired ?.
>
> Should the motherboard fail then complete tivos are only £100 on
> ebay,  and tivo will transfer a lifetime sub from one machine to
> another anyway.

That is the decider - I didn't think they would do this.

Thanks

Resident Drunk wrote:
> I am quite happy to replace the disk should that die and probably the power 
> supply, is there anything else that is likely to break which would could not 
> be repaired ?. 

Suggest if you are using the phone connection, to fit a good surge 
suppressor to the TiVo incoming phone line. Some may say do the same 
with the mains supply... probably depends where you are, I've never felt 
the need to worry about my supply.

Oh, and buy a few remote controls. Got mine from a guy 'komodopb' on 
Ebay who sells 2 original remotes and a PSU board for £11.

-- 
Adrian C

Phone lines already have a 'whole house' type protector installed free
by the telco on phone lines.  These protectors have existed for longer
than every poster and lurker here has existed.

  The most common source of modem damage are transients on AC mains.
This because AC mains would not be properly earthed by a 'whole house'
protector.   Earthing - not protectors - are Tivo protection.  Every
incoming utility - cable, telephone, and AC electric - must connect
every wire to earth when entering the building.  If not connected
directly to earth (ie coax cable), then that wire must be earthed
through a protector - a 'whole house' type protector.

  That telco installed protector is so effective and so inexpensive
that the telco installs it for free.  The most common source of modem,
fax, and portable phone base station damage is due to no 'whole house'
protector properly earthed on AC mains.

  'Whole house' protectors are manufactured by those who have good
reputations - GE, Square D, Siemens, Cutler-Hammer, Intermatic, and
Leviton.  They are available in Home Depot, Lowes, and most electrical
supply houses.  Effective solutions have never been observed in Sears,
Radio Shack, Kmart, Staples, Circuit City, Office Max, Wal-Mart, or
Best Buy.  There is no effective plug-in protector.  A short connection
to single point earthing electrode is essential to effective modem
protection.

Adrian C wrote:
> Suggest if you are using the phone connection, to fit a good surge
> suppressor to the TiVo incoming phone line. Some may say do the same
> with the mains supply... probably depends where you are, I've never felt
> the need to worry about my supply.
> ....

Phone lines already have a 'whole house' type protector installed free
by the telco on phone lines.  These protectors have existed for longer
than every poster and lurker here has existed.

  The most common source of modem damage are transients on AC mains.
This because AC mains would not be properly earthed by a 'whole house'
protector.   Earthing - not protectors - are Tivo protection.  Every
incoming utility - cable, telephone, and AC electric - must connect
every wire to earth when entering the building.  If not connected
directly to earth (ie coax cable), then that wire must be earthed
through a protector - a 'whole house' type protector.

  That telco installed protector is so effective and so inexpensive
that the telco installs it for free.  The most common source of modem,
fax, and portable phone base station damage is due to no 'whole house'
protector properly earthed on AC mains.

  'Whole house' protectors are manufactured by those who have good
reputations - GE, Square D, Siemens, Cutler-Hammer, Intermatic, and
Leviton.  They are available in Home Depot, Lowes, and most electrical
supply houses.  Effective solutions have never been observed in Sears,
Radio Shack, Kmart, Staples, Circuit City, Office Max, Wal-Mart, or
Best Buy.  There is no effective plug-in protector.  A short connection
to single point earthing electrode is essential to effective modem
protection.

Adrian C wrote:
> Suggest if you are using the phone connection, to fit a good surge
> suppressor to the TiVo incoming phone line. Some may say do the same
> with the mains supply... probably depends where you are, I've never felt
> the need to worry about my supply.
> ....

Mike Redrobe wrote:

>and tivo will transfer a lifetime sub from one machine to
>another anyway.

They do on occasions, when the wind is right. They aren't obliged to
at all.

-- 
Digibox problem? : A reboot solves 90% of these.
The Sky Digital FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/8vef5
UK TV overseas: http://tinyurl.com/6p73
BBC reception questions? ; http://www.astra2d.com/
Fed up with on-screen logos? : http://logofreetv.org/
----
Only the truth as I see it.
No monies return'd. ;-)

w_tom wrote:

> Phone lines already have a 'whole house' type protector installed free
>by the telco on phone lines.  These protectors have existed for longer
>than every poster and lurker here has existed.

Your comments apparently apply to the US, but not Europe.

-- 
Digibox problem? : A reboot solves 90% of these.
The Sky Digital FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/8vef5
UK TV overseas: http://tinyurl.com/6p73
BBC reception questions? ; http://www.astra2d.com/
Fed up with on-screen logos? : http://logofreetv.org/
----
Only the truth as I see it.
No monies return'd. ;-)

Resident Drunk wrote:

>Now having upgraded the disk & fitted an Ethernet card it is like one of the 
>family and I have the dilemma of should I subscribe or not (I know I should 
>have originally).

I bought my Tivo about 2.5 years ago. I took a lifetime sub
immediately for the simple reason that I will not pay any sort of
permanent monthly fee for such a service, particularly such a high
fee.

If I was thinking about buying a Tivo today it would be a difficult
decision because the functionality of non-Tivo PVRs is increasing
rapidly. Satellite viewers can achieve nearly the same functionality
with a combination of the Sky EPG auto-view function and any suitable
recorder. Freeview users can buy twin-tuner PVRs. Many DVDRs have
GuidePlus+. All of these are free to use.


>I am quite happy to replace the disk should that die and probably the power 
>supply, is there anything else that is likely to break which would could not 
>be repaired ?. 

The drive *will* die at some point. This is certain.
Then, from most to least likely, you have the remote, the power
supply, the modem.

Only the last is difficult to fix and there is a work-around if you
have an internet connection.

Other faults appear to be rare. The UK Tivo seems to have been quite
well made.

-- 
Digibox problem? : A reboot solves 90% of these.
The Sky Digital FAQ: http://tinyurl.com/8vef5
UK TV overseas: http://tinyurl.com/6p73
BBC reception questions? ; http://www.astra2d.com/
Fed up with on-screen logos? : http://logofreetv.org/
----
Only the truth as I see it.
No monies return'd. ;-)

w_tom wrote:
>  Phone lines already have a 'whole house' type protector installed free
> by the telco on phone lines.  These protectors have existed for longer
> than every poster and lurker here has existed.
> 

UK Telephone lines are twisted pair and do not have a earthing 
requirement to the customers electricity supply.

In a typical British Telecom master socket there is a surge suppressor 
device across the twisted pair but that probably has been there since 
the line was installed or upgraded. These devices deteriorate over time, 
and so probably do the US equivalents of this.

A dedicated surge device near the communications port of the TiVo is a 
*good* idea based on this, and the fact that evidence has shown the TiVo 
modem is not completely capable of standing up to spikes on it's own.

-- 
Adrian C

Jomtien wrote:
> Your comments apparently apply to the US, but not Europe.

  Rightly so.  The protector in a master socket does little for Tivo
protection if it does not have that same earthing connection.  Some
telephone line protectors for UK service that are effective as made
obvious by a dedicated earthing line:
http://www.one.co.uk/catalogue/telebyte/LightSurgeProtect/22PX.HTM
http://www.keison.co.uk/furse/furse11.htm
http://www.keison.co.uk/furse/furse08.htm

  An example of how a building system provides that protection:
http://www.telecom-protect-tech.co.uk/tp_6pp.shtml

  The six point protection plan for UK  is a same concept used most
everywhere in the world and that is defined by a British Standard
BS6651. .  What is installed in the States for free must be install in
the UK by the line subscriber (home owner).  A protector without that
short and dedicated connection to a common earthing electrody sysetm
will not be effective.

UK does not have earthing requirements for telephone lines because BT
does not typically install nor does UK code demand surge protectors at
a premise interface.  In NA, code does demand such protectors which is
why a telephone line at subscriber interface is earthed - per code.

  As BS6651 (as British standard) and those UK providers of protectors
demonstrate, the telephone line protector must connect to earthing
electrode also used by AC mains.  This for TIVO modem protection from
transients.

  BTW, in NA, Tivo modems are typically damaged by transients incoming
on AC electric that has not 'whole houjse' protector.  Modems fail
because they are in a path to earth ground.  This modem, for example,
was in a building that was not properly earthed.  By routinely tracing
why electronics are damaged, I fix such electronics and learn why they
failed.  This modem was lightning damaged maybe five years ago.  I
replaced the PNP transistor that drives an off-hook relay (error
message was No Dialtone Detected).  It worked just fine every since.
Transient was incoming on AC electric and outgoing on phone line to
earth ground.

  Every incoming utility to a Tivo must be earthed before entering the
building to avoid transient damage.  Does not matter if wires are
twisted pair, shielded, or underground.  This earthing requirement
applies to phone lines, cable TV, satellite dish, and AC electric.  If
any utility wire connects lightning to earth via building electronics,
then appliances - even Tivo - may be damaged.

  Yes protector devices degrade.  This is why number of joules must be
larger.  For example, a 365 joule plug-in protector (which is really
equivalent to a 115 joule 'whole house' protector) can protect for two
direct lightning strikes, then the 1000 joule 'whole house' protector
would be rated for about 300 of those same size direct strikes.  Yes,
if using subjective reasoning so often used to promote myths, then all
protectors degrade with use.  Then we apply numbers.  A properly sized
'whole house' protector makes such degradation irrelevant.

  A dedicated protector adjacent to a Tivo can even contribute to
damage of that adjacent and powered off Tivo.  For same reasons, this
is why BT, with overhead wires everywhere in town connected to their
multi-million quid computer, prefers each protector up to 50 meters
away from that computer AND near zero meters from earth ground.  That
separation between protector and transistors enhances protection.  That
short distance to earth is essential for protection.

  Meanwhile a protector at the Tivo communication port does what?  To
be effective, it must absorb surge energy.  But protectors don't do
that.  Shunt mode protectors shunt (connect, divert, share, distribute)
a surge - from one wire to all others.  The adjacent protector simply
provides a transient with more paths to find earth ground,
destructively, via that Tivo.  What kind of protection is that?  Hyped,
ineffective, not earthed, and often undersized to promote myths.

  Bottom line:  Tivo protection will only be as effective as a
protector's connection to earth ground.  Anything at the Tivo that will
provide protection is already inside that Tivo.  Effective Tivo
protection is located where all utility wires enter the building with a
connection less than 3 meters to earth.  A protector being only as
effective as its earthing.

Adrian C wrote:
> UK Telephone lines are twisted pair and do not have a earthing
> requirement to the customers electricity supply.
>
> In a typical British Telecom master socket there is a surge suppressor
> device across the twisted pair but that probably has been there since
> the line was installed or upgraded. These devices deteriorate over time,
> and so probably do the US equivalents of this.
>
> A dedicated surge device near the communications port of the TiVo is a
> *good* idea based on this, and the fact that evidence has shown the TiVo
> modem is not completely capable of standing up to spikes on it's own.
> 
> -- 
> Adrian C

w_tom wrote:
>   UK does not have earthing requirements for telephone lines because BT
> does not typically install nor does UK code demand surge protectors at
> a premise interface.

That statement is wrong for a start ;-). The master socket NTE5 is 
compulsory for UK domestic installations and does include a surge protector.

The UK TiVo's modem circuit is a bad rehash of the US one, it has no 
line transformer isolation and has been shown in UK & US especially 
fragile with lightning discharges compared with modem circutry designed 
for this market which has in-built protection. For this it *does* 
warrant the use of an additional earthed surge protector, if the user is 
keen on not having the now expensive motherboard damaged during a storm. 
Making the earth point far from the TiVo is maybe a good idea, but even 
close is better than none.

-- 
Adrian C

If a master socket contains a surge protector and that master socket
has no earth ground, then that master socket does no effective surge
protection.  Did you read a summary of BS6651?  Many people do as you
are doing.  They see a phrase "surge protector", use word association
as if it were science, and then assume 'protector' means protection.
Without a short connection to an earthing electrode, that master socket
protector would not be effective.  No earth ground means no effective
protection.

   Tivo modems are as fragile in the US as in the UK.  Without that
earthed 'whole house' protector, then its modem is at risk.  In the US,
that earthed 'whole house' protector is installed by the telephone
company, for free, because it is so inexpensive and so effective.
Therefore Tivo in the US might appear to be more robust.  In the UK, no
protector is installed AND the master socket is not earthed.  No earth
ground means no effective protection.

  Provided were UK sources for telephone protectors.  Protectors that
works as called for by a British standard BS6651.

  What would a protector between a pair of wires do?  Shunt
(distribute, connect) a transient from one wire to the other.  Now the
transient is on both wires and still seeking earth.  A master socket
protector without earth ground provides the typically destructive
transient with more wires to find earth, destructively, through a Tivo.
 But again - no earth ground means no effective protection.

  Without a connection to earthing - which the master socket does not
have - then no effective protection.  Notice that a provider of
telephone line protectors states the earthing requirement in their
reference manual:
     http://www.telebyteusa.com/catalog/manuals/m0161.htm
> "This is accomplished by using a ground wire no longer than 10
> feet ... from the ground stud, on the protector, to a building ground."

  Tivo protection is only as effective as its earth ground - as was
well proven even in the 1930s and is standard even in BT's own
buildings.  An earthed 'whole house' protector must be on all incoming
utilities including AC electric - to protect Tivo and all other
electronics.  A protector inside a master socket that is not earthed
does nothing effective.  Old and well proven science - earthing -  that
was even demonstrated by Ben Franklin in 1752.

Adrian C wrote:
> w_tom wrote:
>>    UK does not have earthing requirements for telephone lines because BT
>>  does not typically install nor does UK code demand surge protectors at
>>  a premise interface.
>
> That statement is wrong for a start ;-). The master socket NTE5 is
> compulsory for UK domestic installations and does include a surge protector.
>
> The UK TiVo's modem circuit is a bad rehash of the US one, it has no
> line transformer isolation and has been shown in UK & US especially
> fragile with lightning discharges compared with modem circutry designed
> for this market which has in-built protection. For this it *does*
> warrant the use of an additional earthed surge protector, if the user is
> keen on not having the now expensive motherboard damaged during a storm.
> Making the earth point far from the TiVo is maybe a good idea, but even
> close is better than none.
> 
> Adrian C

w_tom wrote:

<snip>

OK, you are repeating yourself - and its obvious you have no idea about 
the TiVo's modem design weakness and are just trolling for contraversial 
debate. I see exactly what the problem with the device is, and maybe you 
might too - but YOU are the one buried under miscellenous literature and 
papers, a lot of which don't relate to the use of foreign modems in the UK.

Time is valuable for me. Good day.

--
Adrian C

Tivo modems in UK are less robust than those same modems in US?  This
myth proves that one is knowledgeable?  If Adrian really understood the
concept, then he could tell us how he repaired modems damaged by
lightning; having traced a transient and literally replaced
semiconductors to make that modem functional.  This is how that 1930
technology for effective Tivo protection can be learned.

  Instead Adrian's response is that he (mysteriously) knows these
things are not true; never even provides a citation, fact, or number.
To promote myths, he accuses rather than cites science fact.  Since I
have both done the work (experience) AND learned the technology
(underlying theories), then his solution is to instead disparage the
messenger.

  Funny thing when we learn from the literature and papers AND  then
repair electronics to discover why damaged occurs.  As a result,
electronics damage from direct lightning strikes no longer happens  -
using technology even proven in the 1930s.  Using technology that
Adrian somehow just knows cannot work.

  Provided were effective phone line protectors for UK Tivo protection.
 And those effective protectors require what is not provided by UK
master sockets - earth ground.

   There is no way around the basic principle.  A protector is only as
effective as its earth ground.  Repeated, in part, because Adrian still
denies this well proven fact - that even Ben Franklin demonstrated in
1752.   Notice he does not dispute the missing earth ground on those
master sockets.  Maybe he has this problem because Adrian also has the
same disrespect of Franklin that his ancestors did in 1750s?

Adrian C wrote:
> OK, you are repeating yourself - and its obvious you have no idea about
> the TiVo's modem design weakness and are just trolling for contraversial
> debate. I see exactly what the problem with the device is, and maybe you
> might too - but YOU are the one buried under miscellenous literature and
> papers, a lot of which don't relate to the use of foreign modems in the UK.
> 
> Time is valuable for me. Good day.

"w_tom"  wrote in message 
news:1142352236.320575.219590@u72g2000cwu.googlegroups.com...
> Tivo modems in UK are less robust than those same modems in US?  This
> myth proves that one is knowledgeable?  If Adrian really understood the
> concept, then he could tell us how he repaired modems damaged by
> lightning; having traced a transient and literally replaced
> semiconductors to make that modem functional.  This is how that 1930
> technology for effective Tivo protection can be learned.
>

Erm....

Thanks all - but it is networked anyway.