After a year of two of virtual silence, the HD on my TF5800 has started
making a noise. You can't really hear it if you're watching something, but
it noticable throughout the day.

It's 'normal' HD reading/writing noise on a computer.

I was wondering if the HD was dying - we do record a lot and the Topfiled is
on from 9am to about midnight with the HD running.

Ta

On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 11:17:29 UTC, Willie  
wrote:

> After a year of two of virtual silence, the HD on my TF5800 has started
> making a noise. You can't really hear it if you're watching something, but
> it noticable throughout the day.
> 
> It's 'normal' HD reading/writing noise on a computer.
> 
> I was wondering if the HD was dying - we do record a lot and the Topfiled is
> on from 9am to about midnight with the HD running.
> 
> Ta

There are PSU problems. If you have a meter get the top of and check 
the voltage at the molex. The PSU is right on its limits and any 
slight drop causes all sorts of disk related problems.

HTH

-- 
Regards
Dave Saville

NB Remove nospam. for good email address

"Dave Saville"  wrote:

> On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 11:17:29 UTC, Willie 
> wrote:
> 
> > After a year of two of virtual silence, the HD on my TF5800 has started
> > making a noise. You can't really hear it if you're watching something,
> > but it noticable throughout the day.
> > 
> > It's 'normal' HD reading/writing noise on a computer.
> > 
> > I was wondering if the HD was dying - we do record a lot and the
> > Topfiled is on from 9am to about midnight with the HD running.
> > 
> > Ta
> 
> There are PSU problems. If you have a meter get the top of and check the
> voltage at the molex. The PSU is right on its limits and any slight drop
> causes all sorts of disk related problems.

Thanks.

How much of a drop are we talking about then, 0.1v, 0.2v, 0.5v?
Could I power it externally?

On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 14:30:38 UTC, News Will  
wrote:

.
> 
> How much of a drop are we talking about then, 0.1v, 0.2v, 0.5v?

Not a lot. Do a search for "molex" over on the www.toppy.org.uk 
forums. More info than you want :-)

> Could I power it externally?

I think someone did - but a replacement PSU is not expensive and a 
doddle to fit.

-- 
Regards
Dave Saville

NB Remove nospam. for good email address

The message 
from News Will  contains these words:

> "Dave Saville"  wrote:

> > On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 11:17:29 UTC, Willie 
> > wrote:
> > 
> > > After a year of two of virtual silence, the HD on my TF5800 has started
> > > making a noise. You can't really hear it if you're watching something,
> > > but it noticable throughout the day.
> > > 
> > > It's 'normal' HD reading/writing noise on a computer.
> > > 
> > > I was wondering if the HD was dying - we do record a lot and the
> > > Topfiled is on from 9am to about midnight with the HD running.
> > > 
> > > Ta
> > 
> > There are PSU problems. If you have a meter get the top of and check the
> > voltage at the molex. The PSU is right on its limits and any slight drop
> > causes all sorts of disk related problems.

> Thanks.

> How much of a drop are we talking about then, 0.1v, 0.2v, 0.5v?
> Could I power it externally?

 The design brief for a PC PSU (and the TF5800 is PC technology) is that
it should maintain its various voltage rails within +/- 5% of their
nominal voltage. 
Otoh, the voltage _requirements_ of the various chips and other
components used in a PC are based on a +/- 10% tolerance.

 Provided the +12v is no lower than 11.4v and no higher than 12.6v and
the +5v is no lower than 4.75v and no higher than 5.25v, the PSU is
within tolerance and shouldn't cause any problem.

 There may be other voltage rails present (-12v, -5v, +5vsb and 3.3v)
which might be more tricky to access. These should also be within the
+/- 5% tolerance range. However, one wouldn't expect to see problems
until the +/- 10% tolerance range of the powered devices is exceeded.

 The problem with using a voltmeter to make such measurements
(particularly when a digital meter is used), is that short term dips or
excessive ripple content due to ageing capacitors will not be detected,
so it is quite possible that voltage readings within the 5% tolerance
range can still be obtained even in the presence of short term dips
below the 10% device minimum (possibly agravated by excessive ripple
content).

 However, having said all that, a noisy hard drive is more likely to be
a hard disk issue (possibly related to overheat conditions) rather than
a PSU one.

 I've only ever had the top cover off the one time to identify the 250GB
drive and don't recall seeing a cooling fan. I was extremely surprised
to discover that the drive was a standard 7,200rpm Spinpoint unit rather
than the 5,400rpm versions which Samsung make specially for just such
equipment (where even 5,400rpm is 'overkill' performancewise with a
suitably optimised OS to allow the simultaneous recording of two channel
streams and the playback of a third stream from the archive).

 Although the measired [1] mains consumption is a mere 25 watts active,
there is still a risk of overheat damage to the hard disk if the unit is
sat on top of other heat producing equipment or its vent slots
obstructed.

 The upper limit on hard drive temperature is either 55 or 60 deg
celcius and this can quite easily be approached or even exceeded if
inadequate cooling provision has been made in the design of the box.

 I don't believe the TF5800 monitors the SMART data to monitor drive
temperature (possibly on account such monitoring would be disruptive to
the design function of the drive as a streaming data store), but if you
are concerned, you could always attach the drive to a PC and boot from
the drive manufacturer's hdd diagnostics disk (CD or Floppy) and check
the SMART logs. In any case, you could run the non-destructive
diagnostics tests and verify whether or not there is trouble brewing (as
well as isolate the drive from what might be the real noise source
elsewhere in the TF5800 box).

 It's just possible there might even be a TAP for checking drive
temperature (or the SMART log data), I haven't looked at the TAPs list
for nearly a year so couldn't say, but it might be worth a look.

[1] Using a real watt meter, not a cheap digital unit.

-- 
Regards, John.

 Please remove the "ohggcyht" before replying.
The address has been munged to reject Spam-bots.

On 31 Jan 2008 18:00:50 GMT, "Dave Saville" 
wrote:

>On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 14:30:38 UTC, News Will  
>wrote:
>
>.
>> 
>> How much of a drop are we talking about then, 0.1v, 0.2v, 0.5v?
>
>Not a lot. Do a search for "molex" over on the www.toppy.org.uk 
>forums. More info than you want :-)
>
>> Could I power it externally?
>
>I think someone did - but a replacement PSU is not expensive and a 
>doddle to fit.


Will a toppy work with a cable box?

On Fri, 1 Feb 2008 11:14:27 UTC, Lister  wrote:

> Will a toppy work with a cable box?

This has to be the most frequent FAQ - for *all* PVR's. As far as I 
know *no* currently available freeview PVR will record from anywhere 
other than its own tuners. 

Reason: They all record the raw data stream to HDD, hence the playback
quality. To record from external sources you need an encoding chip, 
and licence for its firmware, it all puts the price up.  
-- 
Regards
Dave Saville

NB Remove nospam. for good email address

Dave Saville wrote:
> On Fri, 1 Feb 2008 11:14:27 UTC, Lister  wrote:
> 
>> Will a toppy work with a cable box?
> 
> This has to be the most frequent FAQ - for *all* PVR's. As far as I 
> know *no* currently available freeview PVR will record from anywhere 
> other than its own tuners. 
> 
> Reason: They all record the raw data stream to HDD, hence the playback
> quality. To record from external sources you need an encoding chip, 
> and licence for its firmware, it all puts the price up.  

Correct. However, get a machine with a built-in DVD recorder as well as 
the hard drive and cable / external analoge recording becomes a 
possibility. But best for Cable is either their own PVR solution, or TiVo.

-- 
Adrian C

Johnny B Good  wrote:

> The message  from News
> Will  contains these words:
> 
> > "Dave Saville"  wrote:
> 
[snip]......

>  It's just possible there might even be a TAP for checking drive
> temperature (or the SMART log data), I haven't looked at the TAPs list for
> nearly a year so couldn't say, but it might be worth a look.
> 
> [1] Using a real watt meter, not a cheap digital unit.
> 
It was suggested that I try HDDInfo, which seems to have done the trick. I
set it to quiet and it's nows back to being near inaudible again.

Unfortunately I couldn't see a temperature reading in SMART data, but the
machine (even in the summer of 2006) never really got hot.

Many thanks.....

In message , News Will 
 wrote
>
>Unfortunately I couldn't see a temperature reading in SMART data, but the
>machine (even in the summer of 2006) never really got hot.
>

Did you got to the second screen in HDinfo? The temperature is in the 
'raw' data column against the entry 'device temperature' and possibly 
duplicated in the entry 'unknown attribute'.

See the second picture at
http://www.amac.f2s.com/hd/index.htm

In the first screen you may have to press the '3' key on the remote to 
enable SMART and then press the >> key.

-- 
Alan
news2006 {at} amac {dot} f2s {dot} com

Alan  wrote:

> In message , News Will
>  wrote
> >
> > Unfortunately I couldn't see a temperature reading in SMART data, but
> > the machine (even in the summer of 2006) never really got hot.
> >
> 
> Did you got to the second screen in HDinfo? The temperature is in the
> 'raw' data column against the entry 'device temperature' and possibly
> duplicated in the entry 'unknown attribute'.
> 
> See the second picture at http://www.amac.f2s.com/hd/index.htm
> 
> In the first screen you may have to press the '3' key on the remote to
> enable SMART and then press the >> key.
> 
Thanks Alan, time for an eye-test methinks!

I did get to the second screen, but did not see "Device Temperature" for
some reason.

Having just copied a film across, I get 82 (Centigrade?) assuming that Val
is the current temp. 

I shall monitor my temperature now. Thanks

In message , News Will 
 wrote
>Alan  wrote:
>
>Having just copied a film across, I get 82 (Centigrade?) assuming that Val
>is the current temp.

No,  the column labelled 'raw' is the current operating temperature of 
the disk (in Centigrade).

If you have 82C you have a major problems :)  Most hard disks are only 
rated to 60/65C for operation.  From experience,  you are only likely to 
get elevated temperatures (50+C) if you have replaced your hard disk 
with something larger than 300G bytes - although the new breed of 500G 
hard disks optimised for PVRs are lower power.

-- 
Alan
news2006 {at} amac {dot} f2s {dot} com

> On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 11:17:29 UTC, Willie  
> wrote:
> 
> > After a year of two of virtual silence, the HD on my TF5800 has started
> > making a noise. You can't really hear it if you're watching something,
> > but it noticable throughout the day.
> > 
> > It's 'normal' HD reading/writing noise on a computer.

Do you have it in the mode where you can rewind live recordings ?

Generally you get this noise only when the drive heads are moving rapidly
back and forth.  If you have 'rewind live' mode on and you're recording a
programme then you'll always hear this noise.  Or if you're recording one
programme and watching another.

Simon.
-- 
http://www.hearsay.demon.co.uk

Alan  wrote:

> In message , News Will
>  wrote
> > Alan  wrote:
> >
> > Having just copied a film across, I get 82 (Centigrade?) assuming that
> > Val is the current temp.
> 
> No,  the column labelled 'raw' is the current operating temperature of the
> disk (in Centigrade).
> 
> If you have 82C you have a major problems :)  Most hard disks are only
> rated to 60/65C for operation.  From experience,  you are only likely to
> get elevated temperatures (50+C) if you have replaced your hard disk with
> something larger than 300G bytes - although the new breed of 500G hard
> disks optimised for PVRs are lower power.
> 
RAW column was 44, which I assume is Centigrade, it certainly isn't cold.

Simon Slavin  wrote:

> > On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 11:17:29 UTC, Willie 
> > wrote:
> > 
> > > After a year of two of virtual silence, the HD on my TF5800 has
> > > started making a noise. You can't really hear it if you're watching
> > > something, but it noticable throughout the day.
> > > 
> > > It's 'normal' HD reading/writing noise on a computer.
> 
> Do you have it in the mode where you can rewind live recordings ?

Yes it's been in that mode for about 2 years.

> Generally you get this noise only when the drive heads are moving rapidly
> back and forth.  If you have 'rewind live' mode on and you're recording a
> programme then you'll always hear this noise.  Or if you're recording one
> programme and watching another.

The point was that it was barely noticeable until a few weeks ago, and as
there are hours of stuff and I was worried if the HDD was about to die.
HDD Info has quietened it although it's not as quiet it was.

The message 
from News Will  contains these words:

> Simon Slavin  wrote:

> > > On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 11:17:29 UTC, Willie 
> > > wrote:
> > > 
> > > > After a year of two of virtual silence, the HD on my TF5800 has
> > > > started making a noise. You can't really hear it if you're watching
> > > > something, but it noticable throughout the day.
> > > > 
> > > > It's 'normal' HD reading/writing noise on a computer.
> > 
> > Do you have it in the mode where you can rewind live recordings ?

> Yes it's been in that mode for about 2 years.

> > Generally you get this noise only when the drive heads are moving rapidly
> > back and forth.  If you have 'rewind live' mode on and you're recording a
> > programme then you'll always hear this noise.  Or if you're recording one
> > programme and watching another.

> The point was that it was barely noticeable until a few weeks ago, and as
> there are hours of stuff and I was worried if the HDD was about to die.
> HDD Info has quietened it although it's not as quiet it was.

 That's probably due to fragmentation causing an increase in seek
activity (possibly aggravated by the random? change of seek algorithm[1]
from 'quiet' to 'performance' setting).

 If you could bring yourself to wipe most, if not all, the recorded
programs, you'd probably get back to the almost silent operation it
started with.

[1] Possibly an automatic change to overcome the fragmentation induced
seek performance hit on the FS.

-- 
Regards, John.

 Please remove the "ohggcyht" before replying.
The address has been munged to reject Spam-bots.

On 05/02/2008, Johnny B Good wrote in message
:
 
> [fragmentation]
> If you could bring yourself to wipe most, if not all, the recorded
> programs, you'd probably get back to the almost silent operation it
> started with.

You can, of course, use one of the programs to copy the saved programs
onto your computer, use the Topfield's own functions to wipe the disk,
then copy the saved programs back onto the Topfield.  It works, though it
can take some time.

Simon.
-- 
http://www.hearsay.demon.co.uk

Johnny B Good  wrote:

> The message  from News
> Will  contains these words:
> 
> > Simon Slavin 
> > wrote:
> 
> > > > On Thu, 31 Jan 2008 11:17:29 UTC, Willie
> > > >  wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > > After a year of two of virtual silence, the HD on my TF5800 has
> > > > > started making a noise. You can't really hear it if you're
> > > > > watching something, but it noticable throughout the day.
> > > > > 
> > > > > It's 'normal' HD reading/writing noise on a computer.
> > > 
> > > Do you have it in the mode where you can rewind live recordings ?
> 
> > Yes it's been in that mode for about 2 years.
> 
> > > Generally you get this noise only when the drive heads are moving
> > > rapidly back and forth.  If you have 'rewind live' mode on and you're
> > > recording a programme then you'll always hear this noise.  Or if
> > > you're recording one programme and watching another.
> 
> > The point was that it was barely noticeable until a few weeks ago, and
> > as there are hours of stuff and I was worried if the HDD was about to
> > die. HDD Info has quietened it although it's not as quiet it was.
> 
>  That's probably due to fragmentation causing an increase in seek
> activity (possibly aggravated by the random? change of seek algorithm[1]
> from 'quiet' to 'performance' setting).
> 
>  If you could bring yourself to wipe most, if not all, the recorded
> programs, you'd probably get back to the almost silent operation it
> started with.
> 
> [1] Possibly an automatic change to overcome the fragmentation induced
> seek performance hit on the FS.

I'm slowly copying stuff across, and am deleting into the dustbin which I
thought I'd empty when the drives near full.
I should be writing in uncharted territory at the moment.

Simon Slavin  wrote:

> On 05/02/2008, Johnny B Good wrote in message
> :
>  
> > [fragmentation] If you could bring yourself to wipe most, if not all,
> > the recorded programs, you'd probably get back to the almost silent
> > operation it started with.
> 
> You can, of course, use one of the programs to copy the saved programs
> onto your computer, use the Topfield's own functions to wipe the disk,
> then copy the saved programs back onto the Topfield.  It works, though it
> can take some time.

I know! I did just that when I upgraded to the 250GB drive.
Took two days!