I am considering buying a pvr with hard disk, but want to know if it
is possible to copy from the hard disk for pemanent storage

wrote in message 
news:1186845398.337275.310200@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
>I am considering buying a pvr with hard disk, but want to know if it
> is possible to copy from the hard disk for pemanent storage
>



might help if you told us which one......



-- 
Gareth.

That fly... is your magic wand.
http://www.last.fm/user/dsbmusic/

lovell28@btinternet.com wrote:
> I am considering buying a pvr with hard disk, but want to know if it
> is possible to copy from the hard disk for pemanent storage
> 
It's certainly possible with a Topfield
Cheers
Ian.

the dog from that film you saw 
wrote:

>  wrote in message 
> news:1186845398.337275.310200@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
> >I am considering buying a pvr with hard disk, but want to know if it
> > is possible to copy from the hard disk for pemanent storage
> >
> 
> 
> 
> might help if you told us which one......

It can certainly be done (on the Humax and Topfield), though it can be
argues that installing a larger hard disk to the PVR might be a better
solution.

The official method of transfer from the Humax has problems (mainly that
it is very slow) but there is a much better way if one is prepared to
open the machine. I should warn you, though, that the latest Humax
machines have a seal that would be destroyed if you opned it, while
older ones do not.
-- 
http://www.decohen.com
Send e-mail to the Reply-To address;
mail to the From address is never read

On 11 Aug, 16:22, "the dog from that film you saw"
 wrote:
>  wrote in message
>
> news:1186845398.337275.310200@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
>
> >I am considering buying a pvr with hard disk, but want to know if it
> > is possible to copy from the hard disk for pemanent storage
>
> might help if you told us which one......
>
> --
> Gareth.
>
> That fly... is your magic wand.http://www.last.fm/user/dsbmusic/

My choice right now would be Inverto IDL7000 T, but you may know
better. Where would I find the info on how its done

Regards, Norman

wrote:

> My choice right now would be Inverto IDL7000 T, but you may know
> better. Where would I find the info on how its done

Humax and Topfield are generally considered the best. I don'y know
anything about the Inverto. You would have to check whether there is
software available for transfer, from that machine as the hard drive may
well not be formatted in a way that a PC can directly recognise.
-- 
http://www.decohen.com
Send e-mail to the Reply-To address;
mail to the From address is never read

>
> My choice right now would be Inverto IDL7000 T, but you may know
> better. Where would I find the info on how its done
>
When I was looking last year I was put off by what seemed some 
uncertainty about the ability of this to transfer files to a PC.  But 
I'm sure you'd get better and up-to- date advice from 
http://www.invertoforum.co.uk/forum/index.php

-- 
Robin

On 12 Aug, 17:20, "Robin"

wrote:
> > My choice right now would be Inverto IDL7000 T, but you may know
> > better. Where would I find the info on how its done
>
> When I was looking last year I was put off by what seemed some
> uncertainty about the ability of this to transfer files to a PC.  But
> I'm sure you'd get better and up-to- date advice fromhttp://www.invertoforum.co.uk/forum/index.php
>
> --
> Robin
Further research has turned my opinion towards Humax. I will be
looking for the best deals.

Norman

On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 00:25:40 -0700, lovell28@btinternet.com wrote:

>Further research has turned my opinion towards Humax. I will be
>looking for the best deals.

I would do a lot more research until your opinions turns towards the
Topfield.
-- 
Andrew, contact via http://interpleb.googlepages.com
Help make Usenet a better place: English is read downwards,
please don't top post. Trim replies to quote only relevant text.
Check groups.google.com before asking an obvious question.

> I would do a lot more research until your opinions turns towards the
> Topfield.

I am sure the OP finds that very informative.  While you are about it 
could you also explain to him why some of its owners feel the need to be 
quite so evangelical in case it is contagious?  (I would now rather 
invite the Mormons in than most Toppy owners.)

FWIW I looked at both and spoke to friends who have the Topfield before 
opting for the Humax.  Both seem to me good machines.  But I chose on 
objective criteria of what *we* wanted from a PVR.

-- 
Robin

On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 13:17:47 GMT, "Robin"

wrote:

>I am sure the OP finds that very informative.  While you are about it 
>could you also explain to him why some of its owners feel the need to be 
>quite so evangelical in case it is contagious?  (I would now rather 
>invite the Mormons in than most Toppy owners.)

Because I have had the displeasure of using a Humax, and the pleasure
of using my Toppy with MyStuff installed. Pardon me for speaking from
experience.
-- 
Andrew, contact via http://interpleb.googlepages.com
Help make Usenet a better place: English is read downwards,
please don't top post. Trim replies to quote only relevant text.
Check groups.google.com before asking an obvious question.

> Because I have had the displeasure of using a Humax, and the pleasure
> of using my Toppy with MyStuff installed. Pardon me for speaking from
> experience.

OK but I am not clear how that helps the OP.  I think it help if, for 
example, you could elaborate on what it was about the PVR9200T that 
displeased you so Norman could weigh it in the balance against other 
factors which may interest him (including price).

Norman: you probably already know "Which?" have reported on PVRs again 
this month.  I have also seen both on display in John Lewis stores but 
not, I think, with the MyStuff add-on.

-- 
Robin

Andrew  wrote:

> On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 00:25:40 -0700, lovell28@btinternet.com wrote:
> 
> >Further research has turned my opinion towards Humax. I will be
> >looking for the best deals.
> 
> I would do a lot more research until your opinions turns towards the
> Topfield.

Might nver happen.

Yes, as a Humax owner, I agree that the Topfield needs researching. But
the final decision depends on a number of factors that people can judge
differently.
-- 
http://www.decohen.com
Send e-mail to the Reply-To address;
mail to the From address is never read

Robin 
wrote:

> OK but I am not clear how that helps the OP.  I think it help if, for
> example, you could elaborate on what it was about the PVR9200T that 
> displeased you so Norman could weigh it in the balance against other 
> factors which may interest him (including price).

As a Humax user, who likes it in general, the fact that the EPG is not
saved to disk, and consequently taks fifteen minutes or so to load, is
an issue. My method of scheduling items to record means that this isn't
a great problem for me, but some people find it makes it almost
unusable.

> 
> Norman: you probably already know "Which?" have reported on PVRs again
> this month.  I have also seen both on display in John Lewis stores but
> not, I think, with the MyStuff add-on.

I am not sure what the situation is with the Topfield and the EPG out of
the box. It may have the same issue, but this can be dealt with by an
add-on.

And that's the feature of the Topfield that one may either love or
loathe. Its behaviour can be improved a lot in some very interesting
ways by add-ons, but if one doesn't want to bother with add-ons then I
don't know why anone would prefer it to the Humax.
-- 
http://www.decohen.com
Send e-mail to the Reply-To address;
mail to the From address is never read

"Robin"  
wrote in message news:Ch_vi.6138$cw7.4508@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...

> Norman: you probably already know "Which?" have reported on PVRs again 
> this month.

Ok I haven't seen this particular report, but I feel sometimes they are 
taken a bit too seriously.
I can't speak for everyone in the brown-goods trade, but I know I, and 
everyone of my acquaintance, lost a lot of faith in these reports when they 
reported the Amstrad video recorder to be top of the pile.
As repairers we considered them 'Cheap & Cheerful and found they piled up 
more on the in-bench.
I would prefer to take an opinion from someone concerned with the day to day 
repairing of Humax/Toppfield PVRs as to their quality/reliability and leave 
users to debate the very subjective issue of  their functionality.

My own belief, as previously stated, is neither will achieve mass market 
appeal until their basic function can match a VCR, that is the ability to 
archive material internally to removable media. Pointlessly regurgitating 
the mantra that they have BIG hard drives doesn't address this argument, I 
think any reasonable person sees that the hard drive doesn't exist to cope 
with everything you're ever going to want to store and even if it did it's 
failure (a not uncommon eventuality for any electro-mechanical device) would 
prove catastrophic.
At the moment the two box 'cludge' is favourite that is PVR/DVD-recorder 
which is a bit like TV/DVB box, one box too many.

Oh and if anyone else wants to tell me twin tuner PVRs with built in DVD 
recorders don't yet exist -
DUH!    Hold on a bit, they will.

Just my 2p
    Djimbo. 



-- 
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

djimbo wrote:
> 
> Oh and if anyone else wants to tell me twin tuner PVRs with built in DVD 
> recorders don't yet exist -
> DUH!    Hold on a bit, they will.
> 

I've been holding on for four years now. Will they be along soon, do you 
reckon? Hardly a Duh moment...

*I* know and *you* know and seemingly *every other potential customer* 
knows that's what we want. But it doesn't seem to have got through to 
the manufacturers for some reason.

djimbo wrote:

> 
> "Robin"
>  wrote
> in message news:Ch_vi.6138$cw7.4508@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
> 
>> Norman: you probably already know "Which?" have reported on PVRs
>> again this month.
> 
> Ok I haven't seen this particular report, but I feel sometimes they
> are taken a bit too seriously.
> I can't speak for everyone in the brown-goods trade, but I know I, and
> everyone of my acquaintance, lost a lot of faith in these reports when
> they reported the Amstrad video recorder to be top of the pile.
> As repairers we considered them 'Cheap & Cheerful and found they piled
> up more on the in-bench.
> I would prefer to take an opinion from someone concerned with the day
> to day repairing of Humax/Toppfield PVRs as to their
> quality/reliability and leave
> users to debate the very subjective issue of  their functionality.
> 
> My own belief, as previously stated, is neither will achieve mass
> market appeal until their basic function can match a VCR, that is the
> ability to archive material internally to removable media. Pointlessly
> regurgitating the mantra that they have BIG hard drives doesn't
> address this argument, I think any reasonable person sees that the
> hard drive doesn't exist to cope with everything you're ever going to
> want to store and even if it did it's failure (a not uncommon
> eventuality for any electro-mechanical device) would prove
> catastrophic. At the moment the two box 'cludge' is favourite that is
> PVR/DVD-recorder which is a bit like TV/DVB box, one box too many.
> 
> Oh and if anyone else wants to tell me twin tuner PVRs with built in
> DVD recorders don't yet exist -
> DUH!    Hold on a bit, they will.
> 
> Just my 2p
>     Djimbo.
> 
> 
> 

<advocacy>
If want one now, you can build it using a reasonable spec PC and DVB-S/T
cards and a Linux distro and MythTV.
</advocacy>
I have a PC running KnoppMyth with 2 DVB-T cards and a PVR-350 to
capture the output from a Cable STB and I'm able to burn recorded
programmes to DVD.

Bruce S
-- 
Replace the by by blueyonder.

"Ian"  wrote in message
news:13bs4gh2h56drcb@corp.supernews.com...
> lovell28@btinternet.com wrote:
> > I am considering buying a pvr with hard disk, but want to know if it
> > is possible to copy from the hard disk for pemanent storage
> >
> It's certainly possible with a Topfield
> Cheers
> Ian.
>

Ah yes but only via a USB connection....... My PC is too far from my TV for
USB.  I've read that you can use some kind of box (NSLU?) to bridge the gap
but I'm without the technical knowledge, or the time to acquire the
technical knowlege, to get this to work.  A simple Ethernet card in the back
of the Topfield and I would buy one tomorrow. ........

David at brsince78 dot co dot uk wrote:

> Ah yes but [the Topfield can transfer the recordings to a
> PC] only via a USB connection....... My PC is too far from
> my TV for USB.  I've read that you can use some kind of box
> (NSLU?) to bridge the gap but I'm without the technical
> knowledge, or the time to acquire the technical knowlege,
> to get this to work.  A simple Ethernet card in the back
> of the Topfield and I would buy one tomorrow. ........

The Dreambox DM 7025 has a 10/100Mbps Ethernet connector and can record 
directly to Windows(/SMB) or NFS network shares:

 <http://www.saunalahti.fi/znark/dreambox/dm7025/pictu
re_gallery/case/backside.jpg>

Internal HDD is optional - not necessarily required at all. I don't have 
one in mine.

* * *

Configuring the DM 7025 to record to network shares requires some 
technical knowledge, though, as that kind of "advanced" configuration is 
not officially supported by the manufacturer. Here are the instructions 
(in Finnish, which probably does not help you much, but might give you 
some general idea of the level of complexity):

 <http://www.saunalahti.fi/znark/dreambox/dm7025/tallen
nukset_verkkojakoon/>

-- 
znark

"Jukka Aho"  wrote in message
news:bBowi.207259$UX5.28339@reader1.news.saunalahti.fi...
> David at brsince78 dot co dot uk wrote:
>
> > Ah yes but [the Topfield can transfer the recordings to a
> > PC] only via a USB connection....... My PC is too far from
> > my TV for USB.  I've read that you can use some kind of box
> > (NSLU?) to bridge the gap but I'm without the technical
> > knowledge, or the time to acquire the technical knowlege,
> > to get this to work.  A simple Ethernet card in the back
> > of the Topfield and I would buy one tomorrow. ........
>
> The Dreambox DM 7025 has a 10/100Mbps Ethernet connector and can record
> directly to Windows(/SMB) or NFS network shares:
>
>  <http://www.saunalahti.fi/znark/dreambox/dm7025/pictu
> re_gallery/case/backside.jpg>
>
> Internal HDD is optional - not necessarily required at all. I don't have
> one in mine.
>
> * * *
>
> Configuring the DM 7025 to record to network shares requires some
> technical knowledge, though, as that kind of "advanced" configuration is
> not officially supported by the manufacturer. Here are the instructions
> (in Finnish, which probably does not help you much, but might give you
> some general idea of the level of complexity):
>
>  <http://www.saunalahti.fi/znark/dreambox/dm7025/tallen
> nukset_verkkojakoon/>
>
> -- 
> znark
>

I've researched the Dreambox.  From what I can see it ships with Satellite
tuners.  I would need to purchase 2 DVB-T tuners, a hard drive.  When I've
priced this up it comes to in excess of £400 which is significnatly more
than the Topfield and more than I'd like to spend.

Also how does the level of support for user developed software for the
Topfield and the Dreambox compare?

Bruce Stewart  wrote:

> <advocacy>
> If want one now, you can build it using a reasonable spec PC and DVB-S/T
> cards and a Linux distro and MythTV.
> </advocacy>
> I have a PC running KnoppMyth with 2 DVB-T cards and a PVR-350 to
> capture the output from a Cable STB and I'm able to burn recorded
> programmes to DVD.

For anyone thinking about this approach, there's an article in the
curren issue of Personal Computer World.
-- 
http://www.decohen.com
Send e-mail to the Reply-To address;
mail to the From address is never read

"PC Paul"  wrote in message 
news:oYlwi.6929$cw7.5296@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
> djimbo wrote:
>>
>> Oh and if anyone else wants to tell me twin tuner PVRs with built in DVD 
>> recorders don't yet exist -
>> DUH!    Hold on a bit, they will.
>>
>
> I've been holding on for four years now. Will they be along soon, do you 
> reckon? Hardly a Duh moment...
>
> *I* know and *you* know and seemingly *every other potential customer* 
> knows that's what we want. But it doesn't seem to have got through to the 
> manufacturers for some reason.

Yes I know, I feel the same... why don't these people make what WE want not 
what they want to make?
My guess though is that as soon as the Chinese/Japanese/Koreans/Philippinoes 
perceive a mass market appeal for these things, they will happen.
Particularly as they're ALWAYS on the lookout for the next 'boom' object to 
flood the market with, and to bouy up the flagging brown goods market 
generaly.
Have a look how many different brands of VHS to DVD machines the box 
shifters now have available.
When it happens it will be overnight and you're choice will be from Humax to 
Sony in price range with all the twiddly in between bits
like Sanyo & LuckyGoldstar.
I'm quite surprised the Topfield people have taken this long to wake up to 
the fact that they could be runaway market leaders with such a machine, it 
would be a shame if they were to lose the lead they've built up, 
particularly among the 'technically minded' users who usually drive these 
trends in the market.

(Oh the DUH! was just for previous replies who hadn't even read my post but 
felt the need to point out the (bleedin) obvious to me ;-)
(too many brackets, that's just the PASCAL in my soul)
rgds...
Djimbo. 



-- 
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

"Bruce Stewart"  wrote in message 
news:RGmwi.6944$cw7.4634@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
> <advocacy>
> If want one now, you can build it using a reasonable spec PC and DVB-S/T
> cards and a Linux distro and MythTV.
> </advocacy>
> I have a PC running KnoppMyth with 2 DVB-T cards and a PVR-350 to
> capture the output from a Cable STB and I'm able to burn recorded
> programmes to DVD.
>
> Bruce S

Hi Bruce..
I wish we had cable out here in the boonies...
Yep, advocating the use of Linux in the box puts you firmly at the head of 
the techno brigade, a whole order of magnitude beyond the average Topfield 
user ;-)
Do you have a liquid cooled PSU too?
OK, It can also be achieved to a greater or lesser degree by the slightly 
less technically adept with a Windaz peecee (As I do) but the thrust of my 
comments were towards mass-market  availability, where people want a 'black 
box' to match the amp that'll do it all from the arm chair (Without a 
buzzing lashup box hidden behind the TV)..
My xtal balls seem to be tingling to say it won't be long now before the 
manufacturers wake up to this need.

Djimbo..



-- 
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

> I've researched the Dreambox [DM 7025].  From what I can see it
> ships with Satellite tuners.

I ordered mine from hm-sat.de. Didn't get any sat tuners with it. When 
you place the order in their online shop, they let you choose any 
possible tuner combination (T+T, C+C, S+S, T+S, C+S, T+C) which they 
will then preinstall for you.

A DM 7025 equipped with two DVB-T tuners (which is what I ordered) was 
more expensive than a DM 7025 equipped with two DVB-S tuners, though, so 
you're probably right in that the "default" option seems to be 2×DVB-S 
tuners.

You can also choose whether you want your DM 7025 with or without a 
preinstalled HDD.

For me, one of the main reasons for getting a DM 7025 was its capability 
of recording directly to network shares. I didn't want a "local" HDD in 
the actual set-top box at all and so didn't order one. Instead, I have a 
separate Linux server (actually, just an old clunky PC that couldn't 
possibly handle today's desktop apps) sitting in a closet at the other 
end of the house. The recordings go there over the home network. One of 
the advantages of this setup is that the DM 7025 - missing a local HDD 
or any other moving parts - is completely silent when recording or 
playing back the recordings.

A stand-alone NAS device or a Windows PC would have done just as well 
for remote storage. The Dreambox doesn't really care as long as it can 
access the remote HDD via a shared folder. But I already had that Linux 
server running there in the closet as it is used for other tasks, too - 
it is acting as a firewall for the entire home network, and as a 
personal web server for the family - so I figured it could be used for 
this purpose just as well.

> I would need to purchase 2 DVB-T tuners, a hard drive.

See above.

> When I've priced this up it comes to in excess of £400 which
> is significnatly more than the Topfield and more than I'd like to
> spend.

The DM 7025 is pretty expensive, that's true.

> Also how does the level of support for user developed software
> for the Topfield and the Dreambox compare?

 - The actual PVR software (Enigma 2) that the remote control
   wielding user sees on his tv screen is open source and under
   the GPL licence; you can hack the thing to your heart's
   content.

 - You can program your plugins in Python. (Also in C or C++
   or whatever, if you want to, but even most of the original
   user interface logic is written in Python.)

 - The device is running Linux behind the curtains - with
   everything that that entails. For example, you can log in
   to your DM 7025 over the network via telnet/ssh and run
   Linux commands/programs. The default firmware image comes
   with a Busybox shell environment, telnet and ssh servers,
   and the "joe" text editor if you want to examine the
   underbelly of the machine. There's even a Samba server
   running by default. (If you have a local HDD installed,
   it's sort of like a NAS at the same time.) You can compile
   and run Linux programs/services that run in the background
   and that can be totally unrelated to the set-top box
   functionality (such as IRC or IM clients, the "screen"
   terminal multiplexer, etc.) I've even had an old-fashioned
   "dumb" serial terminal connected to the serial port,
   providing an access to the command prompt locally...
   <http://www.saunalahti.fi/znark/dreambox-irc.jpg> ...but
   you can also do that on the tv screen, with a USB or an
   IR keyboard:
   <http://www.saunalahti.fi/znark/dreambox-irc-2.jpg>. So
   it's pretty flexible.

 - There is a web interface for viewing the EPG and setting
   up timers over the network - even when you're physically
   far away from the box.

 - There are unofficial customized software releases from
   various 3rd parties (with preinstalled plugins and
   enhancements, etc.)

 - There's even an alternative PVR software (Neutrino) that
   fully replaces the original one (Enigma 2), if you'd rather
   use something different.

 - There is semi-shady cardsharing software that allows
   sharing smartcards with the other Dreamboxes in the
   house. (The other Dreamboxes do not need to be the
   same model.)

 - The DM 7025 can record an unspecified number of services
   (programmes) simultaneously as long as they're located
   within at most two multiplexes at any given time. For
   example, recording four or five programmes simultaneously
   is no biggie. You can also record the same channel in
   multiple files simultaneously which may come handy if
   you're making use of the built-in feature that allows
   automatically extending timed EPG recordings in both
   directions by a predefined amount of minutes. (Does the
   DM 7025 / Enigma 2 support "Freeview Playback"? Not yet,
   to my knowledge, but feel free to add the support for
   that - it's open source, after all.)

The user community is less organized than on the Topfield side, though. 
There are many Dreambox forums out there (one of them "offical" and 
maintained by Dream Multimedia themselves) but the majority of them seem 
to be German-speaking, or mixed language with English subforums and 
English language threads among the German discussions.

There are also sites which collect and offer plugins and unofficial 
firmware images for download (so that you don't have to hunt them down 
from the authors' websites or random forum threads), but currently 
nothing as nice or organized as some of the main TAP sites for the 
Topfield models.

-- 
znark

"Jukka Aho"  wrote in message
news:0ECwi.207538$ji2.105484@reader1.news.saunalahti.fi...
> > I've researched the Dreambox [DM 7025].  From what I can see it
> > ships with Satellite tuners.
>
> I ordered mine from hm-sat.de. Didn't get any sat tuners with it. When
> you place the order in their online shop, they let you choose any
> possible tuner combination (T+T, C+C, S+S, T+S, C+S, T+C) which they
> will then preinstall for you.
> <snip>
>..........................
> </snip>
> -- 
> znark
>

Food for thought.... Thanks for the feedback..... I like the idea of not
running an HDD in the box.  Presumably this avoids at least some of the
issues around dissipation of heat when the box is running?
Two further questions:-
1.  If I purchase a Dreambox wihtout HDD and with 2 DVB-T tuners.  How much
is it liekyl to se me back?
2.  I don't have Linux in my skill set so can I get by setting up and using
the box with a remote HDD without it?
--
David Wainwright
Web:  http://www.brsince78.co.uk
Email: david@-deletethisbit-brsince78.co.uk

David at brsince78 dot co dot uk wrote:

> Food for thought.... Thanks for the feedback..... I like
> the  idea of not running an HDD in the box.  Presumably
> this avoids at least some of the issues around dissipation
> of heat when the box is running?

It runs pretty warm even without an HDD inside, but not warm enough to 
worry me. However, I know that many of those who are using an internal 
HDD with a DM 7025 have decided to install a fan inside the case - which 
is another thing I wouldn't want to do as I think noisy equipment with 
cooling fans just doesn't belong to a living room.

Some of those with an internal HDD even recommend using a (supposedly) 
less power-hungry, cooler 2.5" laptop drive with a 3.5" mounting bracket 
and an adapter cable. I don't have any experience on that so I can't 
comment on whether that would help. Laptop drives are more expensive 
than the ordinary 3.5" drives, though...

> Two further questions:-
> 1.  If I purchase a Dreambox wihtout HDD and with 2 DVB-T tuners.
> How much is it liekyl to se me back?

Here's what hm-sat.de would charge you:

 <http://www.hm-sat-shop.de/receiver-digital-dreambox/dream
box-dm-7025-t.html/>

There are UK companies importing Dreamboxes but I don't know about their 
pricing:

 <http://google.com/search?q=dreambox+site%3Aco.uk>

My experience with hm-sat was good. Delivery to Finland (which is where 
I live) took about a week from placing the order. I would have had the 
choice of using a local vendor, but their price was a bit higher so it 
made sense to order from Germany.

> 2.  I don't have Linux in my skill set so can I get by setting
> up and using the box with a remote HDD without it?

If you're using the plain, official "Enigma 2" firmware image - straight 
from Dream Multimedia, without any 3rd party plugins or such -you will 
need to log in to the command line of the box over the network using a 
telnet client (such as PuTTY <http://www.atlantawebhost.com/putty/>) and 
edit two text-based configuration files a bit.

Alternatively, if you're using an unofficial 3rd party firmware image 
such as Gemini 2 (the latest version of which can be downloaded from 
this forum: <http://www.i-have-a-dreambox.com/wbb2/index.php>), those 
often come with a preinstalled automounter plugin that lets you set up 
permanent connections to network shares simply by using menus on the tv 
screen and the remote.

It's nothing overly complicated either way.

* * *

You might want to download the user manual here to check out what the 
"normal" user interface looks like, what functionality it offers 
(out-of-the-box, without any 3rd party plugins or low-level 
configuration on the Linux side) and how it works:

 <http://www.dream-multimedia-tv.de/english/downloads.php>

Note, however, that even the standard Enigma 2 firmware image from Dream 
Multimedia comes with some nicer-looking skins than the default one that 
is depicted in the manul. You can see some screenshots of an alternative 
skin here (with the user interface set to Finnish language, though):

 <http://www.saunalahti.fi/znark/dreambox/dm7025/picture_gallery/>

* * *

As for firmware updates, those can be done basically two ways: either 
via Ethernet or via a serial (null-modem RS-232) cable. The Ethernet 
option is usually more convenient: you simply push some buttons on the 
front panel, point a web browser to the DM 7025's IP address and upload 
a new firmware image that way.

 <http://www.dream-multimedia-tv.de/dm7025/index_eng.php>
 <http://www.dream-multimedia-tv.de/dm7025/eng_browser.php>

There are also multiboot plugins which allow having multiple separate 
firmware images / configurations available at any one time. That may 
come handy if you're into developing for the box or if you otherwise 
just want to test out different images in a convenient way.

The alternative firmware images can be saved to a CompactFlash card 
(there is a CF card reader slot on the front panel), to a USB flash 
drive, or even to the internal HDD (if you have one connected.) This 
also saves the internal flash memory from wearing out (it isn't a 
problem in normal use but if you're into tinkering all kind of things, 
or developing for the box, you might rather want to use an external 
flash memory for your tests than subject the internal flash to an 
excessive number of write cycles...)

By the way, they standard remote they provide with the DM 7025 can 
command two devices (possibly four, if reprogrammed via JP1) and has a 
JP1 connector:

 <http://www.hifi-remote.com/jp1/>

* * *

The DM 7025 isn't without its flaws and rough spots. Heat is one of the 
problems that needs to be dealt with somehow, at least if one is 
planning to use an internal HDD, and some things - such as the current 
state of the built-in subtitling support, and the slow booting times of 
Enigma 2 - would appear to need a bit more work and polishing. The 
documentation for aspiring plugin developers or Enigma 2 hackers is a 
bit sparse, too, and the user community could be more organized and less 
scattered around in various half-English-half-German-speaking forums.

But at the end of the day, nearly everything is open-sourced (the 
hardware drivers are not) and nearly all things can be tinkered with, if 
you only know how. If you've got any programming skills yourself, the DM 
7025 is one of those rare platforms that gives you all the power in the 
world to fix and alter everything that has ever irked you in "normal" 
DVB/DTV/Freeview/PVR set-top boxes, their user interface, and usage 
logic. Of course similar things can also be said about a mini-ITX HTPC 
that is running VDR or MythTV but building one to similar specifications 
is a challenge: PC hardware doesn't usually come in a set-top box form 
factor with a nice remote, RGB-capable SCART connectors, CI slots / 
smart card readers and the like.

The DM 7025 may require a bit more tinkering than an ordinary set-top 
box to get it going and do its magic, but once set up, it's just like 
any ordinary STB/PVR from the end-user's point-of-view: no special 
skills required - the wife and kids can use it, too.

-- 
znark

On 14/08/2007, PC Paul wrote in message
<oYlwi.6929$cw7.5296@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>:
 
> djimbo wrote:
>
> > Oh and if anyone else wants to tell me twin tuner PVRs with built in
> > DVD  recorders don't yet exist -
> 
> *I* know and *you* know and seemingly *every other potential customer* 
> knows that's what we want. But it doesn't seem to have got through to 
> the manufacturers for some reason.

They know it would sell some units, but the price would have to be so high
hardly anyone would buy it.  Something like a thousand pounds.

The problem with this device would be the different markets and standards
involved.  There are four different standards for TV broadcast and six
different sets of DVD Region locking that the manufacturer would have to
support.  It's just not worth creating, testing and debugging a device
with that many different combinations of modes.

They'd also have to fight the Intellectual Property lawyers, since such a
device would be a dream for anyone who wanted to pirate movies.  They'd
have the RIAA wanting 100 pounds for each one sold.

Simon.
-- 
http://www.hearsay.demon.co.uk

"Simon Slavin"  wrote 
in message news:fa2fju$25m$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk...
> On 14/08/2007, PC Paul wrote in message
> <oYlwi.6929$cw7.5296@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>:
>
>> djimbo wrote:
>>
>> > Oh and if anyone else wants to tell me twin tuner PVRs with built in
>> > DVD  recorders don't yet exist -
>>
>> *I* know and *you* know and seemingly *every other potential customer*
>> knows that's what we want. But it doesn't seem to have got through to
>> the manufacturers for some reason.
>
> They know it would sell some units, but the price would have to be so high
> hardly anyone would buy it.  Something like a thousand pounds.
>
> The problem with this device would be the different markets and standards
> involved.  There are four different standards for TV broadcast and six
> different sets of DVD Region locking that the manufacturer would have to
> support.  It's just not worth creating, testing and debugging a device
> with that many different combinations of modes.
>
> They'd also have to fight the Intellectual Property lawyers, since such a
> device would be a dream for anyone who wanted to pirate movies.  They'd
> have the RIAA wanting 100 pounds for each one sold.

So how come stand alone DVD recorders are selling for as little £50?
They would do exactly the same as a DVD recorder in a twin tuner PVR!!

And how would it be any more of a dream than a PC with a hard drive and DVD 
recorder in it??

"Simon Slavin"  wrote 
in message news:fa2fju$25m$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk...
> They know it would sell some units, but the price would have to be so high
> hardly anyone would buy it.  Something like a thousand pounds.
They always start off at what they consider the market will bear, then come 
down to 2p more than the cost to make/transport.
That's just the way the market crumbles..
I suspect your £1K guesstimate may be about double mine for  start-up.
Depending on manufacturer of course, Japanese made Sonys will always be 
dearer than LGs ;-)

> The problem with this device would be the different markets and standards
> involved.  There are four different standards for TV broadcast and six
> different sets of DVD Region locking that the manufacturer would have to
> support.  It's just not worth creating, testing and debugging a device
> with that many different combinations of modes.
There are ooodles more than four different TV standards which Asia is 
already happy to cater for, but the whole UK market requires only PAL I with 
5.5MHz sound intercarrier for which loads of  viewing and recording devices 
are already flooding from the far east. As to DVDs, a single region code 
covers an even greater area, coding which most hardware manufacturers are 
already more than happy to let customers circumvent.
The hardware people are always on the lookout for the next 'boom' item to 
match the Colour TV then the VCR then the Satellite booms of years gone by.
The item we're discussing bears more than a passing resemblance to the VCR, 
the technology has changed but its user functionality remains the same.

> They'd also have to fight the Intellectual Property lawyers, since such a
> device would be a dream for anyone who wanted to pirate movies.  They'd
> have the RIAA wanting 100 pounds for each one sold.
They may want, but the hardware market has always shown scant regard for 
software owners rights. A fine example being Sony Hardware which is 
perfectly capable of making copies of Sony's own Columbia software. If yours 
was a realistic argument, there would now be no VHS recorders, no DVD 
recorders, no Sony cassette to cassette tape machine etc etc..ad-nausium.
What usually seems to happen is the major companies start off worrying about 
such things while the Chinese badge buying companies (Bush/Goodmans etc) 
rush in and flood the market with tat, at which stage the big boys have no 
option but to join in.

Forgive the centre-post, I felt points had to be individually addressed.
I respect your right to your belief, it differs a little from mine, but we 
are both only guessing. I only have thirty years in the brown goods trade to 
influence my guesses which (sadly) aren't always correct...
The bottom line seems to be - you don't think these things will be made, I 
do...only time will tell (call me a poorer guesser in 12mths time. ;-)

Djimbo. 



-- 
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

djimbo wrote:

> 
> "Simon Slavin" 
> wrote in message news:fa2fju$25m$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk...
>> They know it would sell some units, but the price would have to be so
>> high
>> hardly anyone would buy it.  Something like a thousand pounds.
> They always start off at what they consider the market will bear, then
> come down to 2p more than the cost to make/transport.
> That's just the way the market crumbles..
> I suspect your £1K guesstimate may be about double mine for 
> start-up. Depending on manufacturer of course, Japanese made Sonys
> will always be dearer than LGs ;-)
> 
>> The problem with this device would be the different markets and
>> standards
>> involved.  There are four different standards for TV broadcast and
>> six different sets of DVD Region locking that the manufacturer would
>> have to
>> support.  It's just not worth creating, testing and debugging a
>> device with that many different combinations of modes.
> There are ooodles more than four different TV standards which Asia is
> already happy to cater for, but the whole UK market requires only PAL
> I with
> 5.5MHz sound intercarrier for which loads of  viewing and recording
> devices are already flooding from the far east. As to DVDs, a single
> region code covers an even greater area, coding which most hardware
> manufacturers are already more than happy to let customers circumvent.
> The hardware people are always on the lookout for the next 'boom' item
> to match the Colour TV then the VCR then the Satellite booms of years
> gone by. The item we're discussing bears more than a passing
> resemblance to the VCR, the technology has changed but its user
> functionality remains the same.
> 
>> They'd also have to fight the Intellectual Property lawyers, since
>> such a
>> device would be a dream for anyone who wanted to pirate movies. 
>> They'd have the RIAA wanting 100 pounds for each one sold.
> They may want, but the hardware market has always shown scant regard
> for software owners rights. A fine example being Sony Hardware which
> is perfectly capable of making copies of Sony's own Columbia software.
> If yours was a realistic argument, there would now be no VHS
> recorders, no DVD recorders, no Sony cassette to cassette tape machine
> etc etc..ad-nausium. What usually seems to happen is the major
> companies start off worrying about such things while the Chinese badge
> buying companies (Bush/Goodmans etc) rush in and flood the market with
> tat, at which stage the big boys have no option but to join in.
> 

The problem is now that many of the Hardware companies are now Software
companies. If VHS came out now, they would probably try some way of
stopping the recording of many types of material.
In addition the rights groups like the MPAA/RIAA seem to have a lot more
influence now that they had when dual deck VCRs and tape recorders came
out.

> Forgive the centre-post, I felt points had to be individually
> addressed. I respect your right to your belief, it differs a little
> from mine, but we are both only guessing. I only have thirty years in
> the brown goods trade to influence my guesses which (sadly) aren't
> always correct... The bottom line seems to be - you don't think these
> things will be made, I do...only time will tell (call me a poorer
> guesser in 12mths time. ;-)
> 
> Djimbo.
> 

Bruce S.
> 
> 

-- 
Replace the by by blueyonder.

wrote in message 
news:1186845398.337275.310200@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
>I am considering buying a pvr with hard disk, but want to know if it
> is possible to copy from the hard disk for pemanent storage
>



might help if you told us which one......



-- 
Gareth.

That fly... is your magic wand.
http://www.last.fm/user/dsbmusic/

lovell28@btinternet.com wrote:
> I am considering buying a pvr with hard disk, but want to know if it
> is possible to copy from the hard disk for pemanent storage
> 
It's certainly possible with a Topfield
Cheers
Ian.

the dog from that film you saw 
wrote:

>  wrote in message 
> news:1186845398.337275.310200@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
> >I am considering buying a pvr with hard disk, but want to know if it
> > is possible to copy from the hard disk for pemanent storage
> >
> 
> 
> 
> might help if you told us which one......

It can certainly be done (on the Humax and Topfield), though it can be
argues that installing a larger hard disk to the PVR might be a better
solution.

The official method of transfer from the Humax has problems (mainly that
it is very slow) but there is a much better way if one is prepared to
open the machine. I should warn you, though, that the latest Humax
machines have a seal that would be destroyed if you opned it, while
older ones do not.
-- 
http://www.decohen.com
Send e-mail to the Reply-To address;
mail to the From address is never read

On 11 Aug, 16:22, "the dog from that film you saw"
 wrote:
>  wrote in message
>
> news:1186845398.337275.310200@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
>
> >I am considering buying a pvr with hard disk, but want to know if it
> > is possible to copy from the hard disk for pemanent storage
>
> might help if you told us which one......
>
> --
> Gareth.
>
> That fly... is your magic wand.http://www.last.fm/user/dsbmusic/

My choice right now would be Inverto IDL7000 T, but you may know
better. Where would I find the info on how its done

Regards, Norman

wrote:

> My choice right now would be Inverto IDL7000 T, but you may know
> better. Where would I find the info on how its done

Humax and Topfield are generally considered the best. I don'y know
anything about the Inverto. You would have to check whether there is
software available for transfer, from that machine as the hard drive may
well not be formatted in a way that a PC can directly recognise.
-- 
http://www.decohen.com
Send e-mail to the Reply-To address;
mail to the From address is never read

>
> My choice right now would be Inverto IDL7000 T, but you may know
> better. Where would I find the info on how its done
>
When I was looking last year I was put off by what seemed some 
uncertainty about the ability of this to transfer files to a PC.  But 
I'm sure you'd get better and up-to- date advice from 
http://www.invertoforum.co.uk/forum/index.php

-- 
Robin

On 12 Aug, 17:20, "Robin"

wrote:
> > My choice right now would be Inverto IDL7000 T, but you may know
> > better. Where would I find the info on how its done
>
> When I was looking last year I was put off by what seemed some
> uncertainty about the ability of this to transfer files to a PC.  But
> I'm sure you'd get better and up-to- date advice fromhttp://www.invertoforum.co.uk/forum/index.php
>
> --
> Robin
Further research has turned my opinion towards Humax. I will be
looking for the best deals.

Norman

On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 00:25:40 -0700, lovell28@btinternet.com wrote:

>Further research has turned my opinion towards Humax. I will be
>looking for the best deals.

I would do a lot more research until your opinions turns towards the
Topfield.
-- 
Andrew, contact via http://interpleb.googlepages.com
Help make Usenet a better place: English is read downwards,
please don't top post. Trim replies to quote only relevant text.
Check groups.google.com before asking an obvious question.

> I would do a lot more research until your opinions turns towards the
> Topfield.

I am sure the OP finds that very informative.  While you are about it 
could you also explain to him why some of its owners feel the need to be 
quite so evangelical in case it is contagious?  (I would now rather 
invite the Mormons in than most Toppy owners.)

FWIW I looked at both and spoke to friends who have the Topfield before 
opting for the Humax.  Both seem to me good machines.  But I chose on 
objective criteria of what *we* wanted from a PVR.

-- 
Robin

On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 13:17:47 GMT, "Robin"

wrote:

>I am sure the OP finds that very informative.  While you are about it 
>could you also explain to him why some of its owners feel the need to be 
>quite so evangelical in case it is contagious?  (I would now rather 
>invite the Mormons in than most Toppy owners.)

Because I have had the displeasure of using a Humax, and the pleasure
of using my Toppy with MyStuff installed. Pardon me for speaking from
experience.
-- 
Andrew, contact via http://interpleb.googlepages.com
Help make Usenet a better place: English is read downwards,
please don't top post. Trim replies to quote only relevant text.
Check groups.google.com before asking an obvious question.

> Because I have had the displeasure of using a Humax, and the pleasure
> of using my Toppy with MyStuff installed. Pardon me for speaking from
> experience.

OK but I am not clear how that helps the OP.  I think it help if, for 
example, you could elaborate on what it was about the PVR9200T that 
displeased you so Norman could weigh it in the balance against other 
factors which may interest him (including price).

Norman: you probably already know "Which?" have reported on PVRs again 
this month.  I have also seen both on display in John Lewis stores but 
not, I think, with the MyStuff add-on.

-- 
Robin

Andrew  wrote:

> On Mon, 13 Aug 2007 00:25:40 -0700, lovell28@btinternet.com wrote:
> 
> >Further research has turned my opinion towards Humax. I will be
> >looking for the best deals.
> 
> I would do a lot more research until your opinions turns towards the
> Topfield.

Might nver happen.

Yes, as a Humax owner, I agree that the Topfield needs researching. But
the final decision depends on a number of factors that people can judge
differently.
-- 
http://www.decohen.com
Send e-mail to the Reply-To address;
mail to the From address is never read

Robin 
wrote:

> OK but I am not clear how that helps the OP.  I think it help if, for
> example, you could elaborate on what it was about the PVR9200T that 
> displeased you so Norman could weigh it in the balance against other 
> factors which may interest him (including price).

As a Humax user, who likes it in general, the fact that the EPG is not
saved to disk, and consequently taks fifteen minutes or so to load, is
an issue. My method of scheduling items to record means that this isn't
a great problem for me, but some people find it makes it almost
unusable.

> 
> Norman: you probably already know "Which?" have reported on PVRs again
> this month.  I have also seen both on display in John Lewis stores but
> not, I think, with the MyStuff add-on.

I am not sure what the situation is with the Topfield and the EPG out of
the box. It may have the same issue, but this can be dealt with by an
add-on.

And that's the feature of the Topfield that one may either love or
loathe. Its behaviour can be improved a lot in some very interesting
ways by add-ons, but if one doesn't want to bother with add-ons then I
don't know why anone would prefer it to the Humax.
-- 
http://www.decohen.com
Send e-mail to the Reply-To address;
mail to the From address is never read

"Robin"  
wrote in message news:Ch_vi.6138$cw7.4508@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...

> Norman: you probably already know "Which?" have reported on PVRs again 
> this month.

Ok I haven't seen this particular report, but I feel sometimes they are 
taken a bit too seriously.
I can't speak for everyone in the brown-goods trade, but I know I, and 
everyone of my acquaintance, lost a lot of faith in these reports when they 
reported the Amstrad video recorder to be top of the pile.
As repairers we considered them 'Cheap & Cheerful and found they piled up 
more on the in-bench.
I would prefer to take an opinion from someone concerned with the day to day 
repairing of Humax/Toppfield PVRs as to their quality/reliability and leave 
users to debate the very subjective issue of  their functionality.

My own belief, as previously stated, is neither will achieve mass market 
appeal until their basic function can match a VCR, that is the ability to 
archive material internally to removable media. Pointlessly regurgitating 
the mantra that they have BIG hard drives doesn't address this argument, I 
think any reasonable person sees that the hard drive doesn't exist to cope 
with everything you're ever going to want to store and even if it did it's 
failure (a not uncommon eventuality for any electro-mechanical device) would 
prove catastrophic.
At the moment the two box 'cludge' is favourite that is PVR/DVD-recorder 
which is a bit like TV/DVB box, one box too many.

Oh and if anyone else wants to tell me twin tuner PVRs with built in DVD 
recorders don't yet exist -
DUH!    Hold on a bit, they will.

Just my 2p
    Djimbo. 



-- 
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

djimbo wrote:
> 
> Oh and if anyone else wants to tell me twin tuner PVRs with built in DVD 
> recorders don't yet exist -
> DUH!    Hold on a bit, they will.
> 

I've been holding on for four years now. Will they be along soon, do you 
reckon? Hardly a Duh moment...

*I* know and *you* know and seemingly *every other potential customer* 
knows that's what we want. But it doesn't seem to have got through to 
the manufacturers for some reason.

djimbo wrote:

> 
> "Robin"
>  wrote
> in message news:Ch_vi.6138$cw7.4508@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
> 
>> Norman: you probably already know "Which?" have reported on PVRs
>> again this month.
> 
> Ok I haven't seen this particular report, but I feel sometimes they
> are taken a bit too seriously.
> I can't speak for everyone in the brown-goods trade, but I know I, and
> everyone of my acquaintance, lost a lot of faith in these reports when
> they reported the Amstrad video recorder to be top of the pile.
> As repairers we considered them 'Cheap & Cheerful and found they piled
> up more on the in-bench.
> I would prefer to take an opinion from someone concerned with the day
> to day repairing of Humax/Toppfield PVRs as to their
> quality/reliability and leave
> users to debate the very subjective issue of  their functionality.
> 
> My own belief, as previously stated, is neither will achieve mass
> market appeal until their basic function can match a VCR, that is the
> ability to archive material internally to removable media. Pointlessly
> regurgitating the mantra that they have BIG hard drives doesn't
> address this argument, I think any reasonable person sees that the
> hard drive doesn't exist to cope with everything you're ever going to
> want to store and even if it did it's failure (a not uncommon
> eventuality for any electro-mechanical device) would prove
> catastrophic. At the moment the two box 'cludge' is favourite that is
> PVR/DVD-recorder which is a bit like TV/DVB box, one box too many.
> 
> Oh and if anyone else wants to tell me twin tuner PVRs with built in
> DVD recorders don't yet exist -
> DUH!    Hold on a bit, they will.
> 
> Just my 2p
>     Djimbo.
> 
> 
> 

<advocacy>
If want one now, you can build it using a reasonable spec PC and DVB-S/T
cards and a Linux distro and MythTV.
</advocacy>
I have a PC running KnoppMyth with 2 DVB-T cards and a PVR-350 to
capture the output from a Cable STB and I'm able to burn recorded
programmes to DVD.

Bruce S
-- 
Replace the by by blueyonder.

"Ian"  wrote in message
news:13bs4gh2h56drcb@corp.supernews.com...
> lovell28@btinternet.com wrote:
> > I am considering buying a pvr with hard disk, but want to know if it
> > is possible to copy from the hard disk for pemanent storage
> >
> It's certainly possible with a Topfield
> Cheers
> Ian.
>

Ah yes but only via a USB connection....... My PC is too far from my TV for
USB.  I've read that you can use some kind of box (NSLU?) to bridge the gap
but I'm without the technical knowledge, or the time to acquire the
technical knowlege, to get this to work.  A simple Ethernet card in the back
of the Topfield and I would buy one tomorrow. ........

David at brsince78 dot co dot uk wrote:

> Ah yes but [the Topfield can transfer the recordings to a
> PC] only via a USB connection....... My PC is too far from
> my TV for USB.  I've read that you can use some kind of box
> (NSLU?) to bridge the gap but I'm without the technical
> knowledge, or the time to acquire the technical knowlege,
> to get this to work.  A simple Ethernet card in the back
> of the Topfield and I would buy one tomorrow. ........

The Dreambox DM 7025 has a 10/100Mbps Ethernet connector and can record 
directly to Windows(/SMB) or NFS network shares:

 <http://www.saunalahti.fi/znark/dreambox/dm7025/pictu
re_gallery/case/backside.jpg>

Internal HDD is optional - not necessarily required at all. I don't have 
one in mine.

* * *

Configuring the DM 7025 to record to network shares requires some 
technical knowledge, though, as that kind of "advanced" configuration is 
not officially supported by the manufacturer. Here are the instructions 
(in Finnish, which probably does not help you much, but might give you 
some general idea of the level of complexity):

 <http://www.saunalahti.fi/znark/dreambox/dm7025/tallen
nukset_verkkojakoon/>

-- 
znark

"Jukka Aho"  wrote in message
news:bBowi.207259$UX5.28339@reader1.news.saunalahti.fi...
> David at brsince78 dot co dot uk wrote:
>
> > Ah yes but [the Topfield can transfer the recordings to a
> > PC] only via a USB connection....... My PC is too far from
> > my TV for USB.  I've read that you can use some kind of box
> > (NSLU?) to bridge the gap but I'm without the technical
> > knowledge, or the time to acquire the technical knowlege,
> > to get this to work.  A simple Ethernet card in the back
> > of the Topfield and I would buy one tomorrow. ........
>
> The Dreambox DM 7025 has a 10/100Mbps Ethernet connector and can record
> directly to Windows(/SMB) or NFS network shares:
>
>  <http://www.saunalahti.fi/znark/dreambox/dm7025/pictu
> re_gallery/case/backside.jpg>
>
> Internal HDD is optional - not necessarily required at all. I don't have
> one in mine.
>
> * * *
>
> Configuring the DM 7025 to record to network shares requires some
> technical knowledge, though, as that kind of "advanced" configuration is
> not officially supported by the manufacturer. Here are the instructions
> (in Finnish, which probably does not help you much, but might give you
> some general idea of the level of complexity):
>
>  <http://www.saunalahti.fi/znark/dreambox/dm7025/tallen
> nukset_verkkojakoon/>
>
> -- 
> znark
>

I've researched the Dreambox.  From what I can see it ships with Satellite
tuners.  I would need to purchase 2 DVB-T tuners, a hard drive.  When I've
priced this up it comes to in excess of £400 which is significnatly more
than the Topfield and more than I'd like to spend.

Also how does the level of support for user developed software for the
Topfield and the Dreambox compare?

Bruce Stewart  wrote:

> <advocacy>
> If want one now, you can build it using a reasonable spec PC and DVB-S/T
> cards and a Linux distro and MythTV.
> </advocacy>
> I have a PC running KnoppMyth with 2 DVB-T cards and a PVR-350 to
> capture the output from a Cable STB and I'm able to burn recorded
> programmes to DVD.

For anyone thinking about this approach, there's an article in the
curren issue of Personal Computer World.
-- 
http://www.decohen.com
Send e-mail to the Reply-To address;
mail to the From address is never read

"PC Paul"  wrote in message 
news:oYlwi.6929$cw7.5296@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
> djimbo wrote:
>>
>> Oh and if anyone else wants to tell me twin tuner PVRs with built in DVD 
>> recorders don't yet exist -
>> DUH!    Hold on a bit, they will.
>>
>
> I've been holding on for four years now. Will they be along soon, do you 
> reckon? Hardly a Duh moment...
>
> *I* know and *you* know and seemingly *every other potential customer* 
> knows that's what we want. But it doesn't seem to have got through to the 
> manufacturers for some reason.

Yes I know, I feel the same... why don't these people make what WE want not 
what they want to make?
My guess though is that as soon as the Chinese/Japanese/Koreans/Philippinoes 
perceive a mass market appeal for these things, they will happen.
Particularly as they're ALWAYS on the lookout for the next 'boom' object to 
flood the market with, and to bouy up the flagging brown goods market 
generaly.
Have a look how many different brands of VHS to DVD machines the box 
shifters now have available.
When it happens it will be overnight and you're choice will be from Humax to 
Sony in price range with all the twiddly in between bits
like Sanyo & LuckyGoldstar.
I'm quite surprised the Topfield people have taken this long to wake up to 
the fact that they could be runaway market leaders with such a machine, it 
would be a shame if they were to lose the lead they've built up, 
particularly among the 'technically minded' users who usually drive these 
trends in the market.

(Oh the DUH! was just for previous replies who hadn't even read my post but 
felt the need to point out the (bleedin) obvious to me ;-)
(too many brackets, that's just the PASCAL in my soul)
rgds...
Djimbo. 



-- 
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

"Bruce Stewart"  wrote in message 
news:RGmwi.6944$cw7.4634@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
> <advocacy>
> If want one now, you can build it using a reasonable spec PC and DVB-S/T
> cards and a Linux distro and MythTV.
> </advocacy>
> I have a PC running KnoppMyth with 2 DVB-T cards and a PVR-350 to
> capture the output from a Cable STB and I'm able to burn recorded
> programmes to DVD.
>
> Bruce S

Hi Bruce..
I wish we had cable out here in the boonies...
Yep, advocating the use of Linux in the box puts you firmly at the head of 
the techno brigade, a whole order of magnitude beyond the average Topfield 
user ;-)
Do you have a liquid cooled PSU too?
OK, It can also be achieved to a greater or lesser degree by the slightly 
less technically adept with a Windaz peecee (As I do) but the thrust of my 
comments were towards mass-market  availability, where people want a 'black 
box' to match the amp that'll do it all from the arm chair (Without a 
buzzing lashup box hidden behind the TV)..
My xtal balls seem to be tingling to say it won't be long now before the 
manufacturers wake up to this need.

Djimbo..



-- 
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

> I've researched the Dreambox [DM 7025].  From what I can see it
> ships with Satellite tuners.

I ordered mine from hm-sat.de. Didn't get any sat tuners with it. When 
you place the order in their online shop, they let you choose any 
possible tuner combination (T+T, C+C, S+S, T+S, C+S, T+C) which they 
will then preinstall for you.

A DM 7025 equipped with two DVB-T tuners (which is what I ordered) was 
more expensive than a DM 7025 equipped with two DVB-S tuners, though, so 
you're probably right in that the "default" option seems to be 2×DVB-S 
tuners.

You can also choose whether you want your DM 7025 with or without a 
preinstalled HDD.

For me, one of the main reasons for getting a DM 7025 was its capability 
of recording directly to network shares. I didn't want a "local" HDD in 
the actual set-top box at all and so didn't order one. Instead, I have a 
separate Linux server (actually, just an old clunky PC that couldn't 
possibly handle today's desktop apps) sitting in a closet at the other 
end of the house. The recordings go there over the home network. One of 
the advantages of this setup is that the DM 7025 - missing a local HDD 
or any other moving parts - is completely silent when recording or 
playing back the recordings.

A stand-alone NAS device or a Windows PC would have done just as well 
for remote storage. The Dreambox doesn't really care as long as it can 
access the remote HDD via a shared folder. But I already had that Linux 
server running there in the closet as it is used for other tasks, too - 
it is acting as a firewall for the entire home network, and as a 
personal web server for the family - so I figured it could be used for 
this purpose just as well.

> I would need to purchase 2 DVB-T tuners, a hard drive.

See above.

> When I've priced this up it comes to in excess of £400 which
> is significnatly more than the Topfield and more than I'd like to
> spend.

The DM 7025 is pretty expensive, that's true.

> Also how does the level of support for user developed software
> for the Topfield and the Dreambox compare?

 - The actual PVR software (Enigma 2) that the remote control
   wielding user sees on his tv screen is open source and under
   the GPL licence; you can hack the thing to your heart's
   content.

 - You can program your plugins in Python. (Also in C or C++
   or whatever, if you want to, but even most of the original
   user interface logic is written in Python.)

 - The device is running Linux behind the curtains - with
   everything that that entails. For example, you can log in
   to your DM 7025 over the network via telnet/ssh and run
   Linux commands/programs. The default firmware image comes
   with a Busybox shell environment, telnet and ssh servers,
   and the "joe" text editor if you want to examine the
   underbelly of the machine. There's even a Samba server
   running by default. (If you have a local HDD installed,
   it's sort of like a NAS at the same time.) You can compile
   and run Linux programs/services that run in the background
   and that can be totally unrelated to the set-top box
   functionality (such as IRC or IM clients, the "screen"
   terminal multiplexer, etc.) I've even had an old-fashioned
   "dumb" serial terminal connected to the serial port,
   providing an access to the command prompt locally...
   <http://www.saunalahti.fi/znark/dreambox-irc.jpg> ...but
   you can also do that on the tv screen, with a USB or an
   IR keyboard:
   <http://www.saunalahti.fi/znark/dreambox-irc-2.jpg>. So
   it's pretty flexible.

 - There is a web interface for viewing the EPG and setting
   up timers over the network - even when you're physically
   far away from the box.

 - There are unofficial customized software releases from
   various 3rd parties (with preinstalled plugins and
   enhancements, etc.)

 - There's even an alternative PVR software (Neutrino) that
   fully replaces the original one (Enigma 2), if you'd rather
   use something different.

 - There is semi-shady cardsharing software that allows
   sharing smartcards with the other Dreamboxes in the
   house. (The other Dreamboxes do not need to be the
   same model.)

 - The DM 7025 can record an unspecified number of services
   (programmes) simultaneously as long as they're located
   within at most two multiplexes at any given time. For
   example, recording four or five programmes simultaneously
   is no biggie. You can also record the same channel in
   multiple files simultaneously which may come handy if
   you're making use of the built-in feature that allows
   automatically extending timed EPG recordings in both
   directions by a predefined amount of minutes. (Does the
   DM 7025 / Enigma 2 support "Freeview Playback"? Not yet,
   to my knowledge, but feel free to add the support for
   that - it's open source, after all.)

The user community is less organized than on the Topfield side, though. 
There are many Dreambox forums out there (one of them "offical" and 
maintained by Dream Multimedia themselves) but the majority of them seem 
to be German-speaking, or mixed language with English subforums and 
English language threads among the German discussions.

There are also sites which collect and offer plugins and unofficial 
firmware images for download (so that you don't have to hunt them down 
from the authors' websites or random forum threads), but currently 
nothing as nice or organized as some of the main TAP sites for the 
Topfield models.

-- 
znark

"Jukka Aho"  wrote in message
news:0ECwi.207538$ji2.105484@reader1.news.saunalahti.fi...
> > I've researched the Dreambox [DM 7025].  From what I can see it
> > ships with Satellite tuners.
>
> I ordered mine from hm-sat.de. Didn't get any sat tuners with it. When
> you place the order in their online shop, they let you choose any
> possible tuner combination (T+T, C+C, S+S, T+S, C+S, T+C) which they
> will then preinstall for you.
> <snip>
>..........................
> </snip>
> -- 
> znark
>

Food for thought.... Thanks for the feedback..... I like the idea of not
running an HDD in the box.  Presumably this avoids at least some of the
issues around dissipation of heat when the box is running?
Two further questions:-
1.  If I purchase a Dreambox wihtout HDD and with 2 DVB-T tuners.  How much
is it liekyl to se me back?
2.  I don't have Linux in my skill set so can I get by setting up and using
the box with a remote HDD without it?
--
David Wainwright
Web:  http://www.brsince78.co.uk
Email: david@-deletethisbit-brsince78.co.uk

David at brsince78 dot co dot uk wrote:

> Food for thought.... Thanks for the feedback..... I like
> the  idea of not running an HDD in the box.  Presumably
> this avoids at least some of the issues around dissipation
> of heat when the box is running?

It runs pretty warm even without an HDD inside, but not warm enough to 
worry me. However, I know that many of those who are using an internal 
HDD with a DM 7025 have decided to install a fan inside the case - which 
is another thing I wouldn't want to do as I think noisy equipment with 
cooling fans just doesn't belong to a living room.

Some of those with an internal HDD even recommend using a (supposedly) 
less power-hungry, cooler 2.5" laptop drive with a 3.5" mounting bracket 
and an adapter cable. I don't have any experience on that so I can't 
comment on whether that would help. Laptop drives are more expensive 
than the ordinary 3.5" drives, though...

> Two further questions:-
> 1.  If I purchase a Dreambox wihtout HDD and with 2 DVB-T tuners.
> How much is it liekyl to se me back?

Here's what hm-sat.de would charge you:

 <http://www.hm-sat-shop.de/receiver-digital-dreambox/dream
box-dm-7025-t.html/>

There are UK companies importing Dreamboxes but I don't know about their 
pricing:

 <http://google.com/search?q=dreambox+site%3Aco.uk>

My experience with hm-sat was good. Delivery to Finland (which is where 
I live) took about a week from placing the order. I would have had the 
choice of using a local vendor, but their price was a bit higher so it 
made sense to order from Germany.

> 2.  I don't have Linux in my skill set so can I get by setting
> up and using the box with a remote HDD without it?

If you're using the plain, official "Enigma 2" firmware image - straight 
from Dream Multimedia, without any 3rd party plugins or such -you will 
need to log in to the command line of the box over the network using a 
telnet client (such as PuTTY <http://www.atlantawebhost.com/putty/>) and 
edit two text-based configuration files a bit.

Alternatively, if you're using an unofficial 3rd party firmware image 
such as Gemini 2 (the latest version of which can be downloaded from 
this forum: <http://www.i-have-a-dreambox.com/wbb2/index.php>), those 
often come with a preinstalled automounter plugin that lets you set up 
permanent connections to network shares simply by using menus on the tv 
screen and the remote.

It's nothing overly complicated either way.

* * *

You might want to download the user manual here to check out what the 
"normal" user interface looks like, what functionality it offers 
(out-of-the-box, without any 3rd party plugins or low-level 
configuration on the Linux side) and how it works:

 <http://www.dream-multimedia-tv.de/english/downloads.php>

Note, however, that even the standard Enigma 2 firmware image from Dream 
Multimedia comes with some nicer-looking skins than the default one that 
is depicted in the manul. You can see some screenshots of an alternative 
skin here (with the user interface set to Finnish language, though):

 <http://www.saunalahti.fi/znark/dreambox/dm7025/picture_gallery/>

* * *

As for firmware updates, those can be done basically two ways: either 
via Ethernet or via a serial (null-modem RS-232) cable. The Ethernet 
option is usually more convenient: you simply push some buttons on the 
front panel, point a web browser to the DM 7025's IP address and upload 
a new firmware image that way.

 <http://www.dream-multimedia-tv.de/dm7025/index_eng.php>
 <http://www.dream-multimedia-tv.de/dm7025/eng_browser.php>

There are also multiboot plugins which allow having multiple separate 
firmware images / configurations available at any one time. That may 
come handy if you're into developing for the box or if you otherwise 
just want to test out different images in a convenient way.

The alternative firmware images can be saved to a CompactFlash card 
(there is a CF card reader slot on the front panel), to a USB flash 
drive, or even to the internal HDD (if you have one connected.) This 
also saves the internal flash memory from wearing out (it isn't a 
problem in normal use but if you're into tinkering all kind of things, 
or developing for the box, you might rather want to use an external 
flash memory for your tests than subject the internal flash to an 
excessive number of write cycles...)

By the way, they standard remote they provide with the DM 7025 can 
command two devices (possibly four, if reprogrammed via JP1) and has a 
JP1 connector:

 <http://www.hifi-remote.com/jp1/>

* * *

The DM 7025 isn't without its flaws and rough spots. Heat is one of the 
problems that needs to be dealt with somehow, at least if one is 
planning to use an internal HDD, and some things - such as the current 
state of the built-in subtitling support, and the slow booting times of 
Enigma 2 - would appear to need a bit more work and polishing. The 
documentation for aspiring plugin developers or Enigma 2 hackers is a 
bit sparse, too, and the user community could be more organized and less 
scattered around in various half-English-half-German-speaking forums.

But at the end of the day, nearly everything is open-sourced (the 
hardware drivers are not) and nearly all things can be tinkered with, if 
you only know how. If you've got any programming skills yourself, the DM 
7025 is one of those rare platforms that gives you all the power in the 
world to fix and alter everything that has ever irked you in "normal" 
DVB/DTV/Freeview/PVR set-top boxes, their user interface, and usage 
logic. Of course similar things can also be said about a mini-ITX HTPC 
that is running VDR or MythTV but building one to similar specifications 
is a challenge: PC hardware doesn't usually come in a set-top box form 
factor with a nice remote, RGB-capable SCART connectors, CI slots / 
smart card readers and the like.

The DM 7025 may require a bit more tinkering than an ordinary set-top 
box to get it going and do its magic, but once set up, it's just like 
any ordinary STB/PVR from the end-user's point-of-view: no special 
skills required - the wife and kids can use it, too.

-- 
znark

On 14/08/2007, PC Paul wrote in message
<oYlwi.6929$cw7.5296@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>:
 
> djimbo wrote:
>
> > Oh and if anyone else wants to tell me twin tuner PVRs with built in
> > DVD  recorders don't yet exist -
> 
> *I* know and *you* know and seemingly *every other potential customer* 
> knows that's what we want. But it doesn't seem to have got through to 
> the manufacturers for some reason.

They know it would sell some units, but the price would have to be so high
hardly anyone would buy it.  Something like a thousand pounds.

The problem with this device would be the different markets and standards
involved.  There are four different standards for TV broadcast and six
different sets of DVD Region locking that the manufacturer would have to
support.  It's just not worth creating, testing and debugging a device
with that many different combinations of modes.

They'd also have to fight the Intellectual Property lawyers, since such a
device would be a dream for anyone who wanted to pirate movies.  They'd
have the RIAA wanting 100 pounds for each one sold.

Simon.
-- 
http://www.hearsay.demon.co.uk

"Simon Slavin"  wrote 
in message news:fa2fju$25m$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk...
> On 14/08/2007, PC Paul wrote in message
> <oYlwi.6929$cw7.5296@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>:
>
>> djimbo wrote:
>>
>> > Oh and if anyone else wants to tell me twin tuner PVRs with built in
>> > DVD  recorders don't yet exist -
>>
>> *I* know and *you* know and seemingly *every other potential customer*
>> knows that's what we want. But it doesn't seem to have got through to
>> the manufacturers for some reason.
>
> They know it would sell some units, but the price would have to be so high
> hardly anyone would buy it.  Something like a thousand pounds.
>
> The problem with this device would be the different markets and standards
> involved.  There are four different standards for TV broadcast and six
> different sets of DVD Region locking that the manufacturer would have to
> support.  It's just not worth creating, testing and debugging a device
> with that many different combinations of modes.
>
> They'd also have to fight the Intellectual Property lawyers, since such a
> device would be a dream for anyone who wanted to pirate movies.  They'd
> have the RIAA wanting 100 pounds for each one sold.

So how come stand alone DVD recorders are selling for as little £50?
They would do exactly the same as a DVD recorder in a twin tuner PVR!!

And how would it be any more of a dream than a PC with a hard drive and DVD 
recorder in it??

"Simon Slavin"  wrote 
in message news:fa2fju$25m$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk...
> They know it would sell some units, but the price would have to be so high
> hardly anyone would buy it.  Something like a thousand pounds.
They always start off at what they consider the market will bear, then come 
down to 2p more than the cost to make/transport.
That's just the way the market crumbles..
I suspect your £1K guesstimate may be about double mine for  start-up.
Depending on manufacturer of course, Japanese made Sonys will always be 
dearer than LGs ;-)

> The problem with this device would be the different markets and standards
> involved.  There are four different standards for TV broadcast and six
> different sets of DVD Region locking that the manufacturer would have to
> support.  It's just not worth creating, testing and debugging a device
> with that many different combinations of modes.
There are ooodles more than four different TV standards which Asia is 
already happy to cater for, but the whole UK market requires only PAL I with 
5.5MHz sound intercarrier for which loads of  viewing and recording devices 
are already flooding from the far east. As to DVDs, a single region code 
covers an even greater area, coding which most hardware manufacturers are 
already more than happy to let customers circumvent.
The hardware people are always on the lookout for the next 'boom' item to 
match the Colour TV then the VCR then the Satellite booms of years gone by.
The item we're discussing bears more than a passing resemblance to the VCR, 
the technology has changed but its user functionality remains the same.

> They'd also have to fight the Intellectual Property lawyers, since such a
> device would be a dream for anyone who wanted to pirate movies.  They'd
> have the RIAA wanting 100 pounds for each one sold.
They may want, but the hardware market has always shown scant regard for 
software owners rights. A fine example being Sony Hardware which is 
perfectly capable of making copies of Sony's own Columbia software. If yours 
was a realistic argument, there would now be no VHS recorders, no DVD 
recorders, no Sony cassette to cassette tape machine etc etc..ad-nausium.
What usually seems to happen is the major companies start off worrying about 
such things while the Chinese badge buying companies (Bush/Goodmans etc) 
rush in and flood the market with tat, at which stage the big boys have no 
option but to join in.

Forgive the centre-post, I felt points had to be individually addressed.
I respect your right to your belief, it differs a little from mine, but we 
are both only guessing. I only have thirty years in the brown goods trade to 
influence my guesses which (sadly) aren't always correct...
The bottom line seems to be - you don't think these things will be made, I 
do...only time will tell (call me a poorer guesser in 12mths time. ;-)

Djimbo. 



-- 
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

djimbo wrote:

> 
> "Simon Slavin" 
> wrote in message news:fa2fju$25m$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk...
>> They know it would sell some units, but the price would have to be so
>> high
>> hardly anyone would buy it.  Something like a thousand pounds.
> They always start off at what they consider the market will bear, then
> come down to 2p more than the cost to make/transport.
> That's just the way the market crumbles..
> I suspect your £1K guesstimate may be about double mine for 
> start-up. Depending on manufacturer of course, Japanese made Sonys
> will always be dearer than LGs ;-)
> 
>> The problem with this device would be the different markets and
>> standards
>> involved.  There are four different standards for TV broadcast and
>> six different sets of DVD Region locking that the manufacturer would
>> have to
>> support.  It's just not worth creating, testing and debugging a
>> device with that many different combinations of modes.
> There are ooodles more than four different TV standards which Asia is
> already happy to cater for, but the whole UK market requires only PAL
> I with
> 5.5MHz sound intercarrier for which loads of  viewing and recording
> devices are already flooding from the far east. As to DVDs, a single
> region code covers an even greater area, coding which most hardware
> manufacturers are already more than happy to let customers circumvent.
> The hardware people are always on the lookout for the next 'boom' item
> to match the Colour TV then the VCR then the Satellite booms of years
> gone by. The item we're discussing bears more than a passing
> resemblance to the VCR, the technology has changed but its user
> functionality remains the same.
> 
>> They'd also have to fight the Intellectual Property lawyers, since
>> such a
>> device would be a dream for anyone who wanted to pirate movies. 
>> They'd have the RIAA wanting 100 pounds for each one sold.
> They may want, but the hardware market has always shown scant regard
> for software owners rights. A fine example being Sony Hardware which
> is perfectly capable of making copies of Sony's own Columbia software.
> If yours was a realistic argument, there would now be no VHS
> recorders, no DVD recorders, no Sony cassette to cassette tape machine
> etc etc..ad-nausium. What usually seems to happen is the major
> companies start off worrying about such things while the Chinese badge
> buying companies (Bush/Goodmans etc) rush in and flood the market with
> tat, at which stage the big boys have no option but to join in.
> 

The problem is now that many of the Hardware companies are now Software
companies. If VHS came out now, they would probably try some way of
stopping the recording of many types of material.
In addition the rights groups like the MPAA/RIAA seem to have a lot more
influence now that they had when dual deck VCRs and tape recorders came
out.

> Forgive the centre-post, I felt points had to be individually
> addressed. I respect your right to your belief, it differs a little
> from mine, but we are both only guessing. I only have thirty years in
> the brown goods trade to influence my guesses which (sadly) aren't
> always correct... The bottom line seems to be - you don't think these
> things will be made, I do...only time will tell (call me a poorer
> guesser in 12mths time. ;-)
> 
> Djimbo.
> 

Bruce S.
> 
> 

-- 
Replace the by by blueyonder.

wrote in message 
news:1186845398.337275.310200@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com...
>I am considering buying a pvr with hard disk, but want to know if it
> is possible to copy from the hard disk for pemanent storage
>



might help if you told us which one......



-- 
Gareth.

That fly... is your magic wand.
http://www.last.fm/user/dsbmusic/

lovell28@btinternet.com wrote:
> I am considering buying a pvr with hard disk, but want to know if it
> is possible to copy from the hard disk for pemanent storage
> 
It's certainly possible with a Topfield
Cheers
Ian.