I live in a conservation area and the local council are starting a purge 
on satellite dishes, they have issued enforcement orders against owners of 
listed buildings with dishes and apparently intend to move on to the rest 
of us.

I will have a real problem - there is an 8 foot high listed cob wall to 
the south of my bungalow so I need the dish to be above that. The south 
facing part of the bungalow is visible from the road. I have a flat roof 
at the back but a dish there would point into a group of evergreen trees 
(not mine and also protected).

Anybody got any suggestions as to ways round this - step 1 would be to 
apply for planning permission but if that is refused might I get away with 
sticking a post in the ground, say 4x4 and about 8 feet high and put the 
dish on that? Anybody got any wrinkles or tips? The village is in a valley 
so there is no hope of any other type of reception apart from satellite.

-- 
Jeff Gaines Damerham Hampshire UK
There is no reason anyone would want a computer in their home.
(Ken Olson, president Digital Equipment, 1977)

On 12 May 2008 21:34:50 GMT, "Jeff Gaines"
 wrote:

>
>I live in a conservation area and the local council are starting a purge 
>on satellite dishes, they have issued enforcement orders against owners of 
>listed buildings with dishes and apparently intend to move on to the rest 
>of us.
>
>I will have a real problem - there is an 8 foot high listed cob wall to 
>the south of my bungalow so I need the dish to be above that. The south 
>facing part of the bungalow is visible from the road. I have a flat roof 
>at the back but a dish there would point into a group of evergreen trees 
>(not mine and also protected).
>
>Anybody got any suggestions as to ways round this - step 1 would be to 
>apply for planning permission but if that is refused might I get away with 
>sticking a post in the ground, say 4x4 and about 8 feet high and put the 
>dish on that? Anybody got any wrinkles or tips? The village is in a valley 
>so there is no hope of any other type of reception apart from satellite.
>
Have you got anywhere that a ground-level (but not fixed) dish has an
unobstructed signal path ?

"Jeff Gaines"  wrote in message 
news:xn0fq3upsoe39i002@news.individual.net...
> Anybody got any suggestions as to ways round this - step 1 would be to 
> apply for planning permission but if that is refused might I get away with 
> sticking a post in the ground, say 4x4 and about 8 feet high and put the 
> dish on that? Anybody got any wrinkles or tips? The village is in a valley 
> so there is no hope of any other type of reception apart from satellite.

If your latter statement is correct I suggest you put the onus on the 
council to find a solution. Otherside they are infringing your human rights. 
No doubt someone here will be able to quote the relevant ECC legislation.

Otherwise:

Without seeing the place it's impossible to advise on a solution, but I can 
tell you that in 99.9% of cases a good installer will be able to find a 
place where the dish works, yet can't be seen. Most trees have gaps.

Don't forget that the signal comes down at quite a steep angle so you will 
most likely be able to put the dish on the ground or at least very low down.

There are various disguised dishes on the market.

Could you put up a small shed or dog kennel with a wall or aperture made of 
very thin plastic sheet, painted wood colour? Or a screen for a 'compost 
heap'?

In extremis, it is possible to make a mount that the dish will simply slot 
into without any alignment. The stucture is then 'not permanent'. This works 
if you can put the mount somewhere convenient to reach.


Bill

Jeff Gaines wrote:
> 
> I live in a conservation area and the local council are starting a purge 
> on satellite dishes, they have issued enforcement orders against owners 
> of listed buildings with dishes and apparently intend to move on to the 
> rest of us.
> 
> I will have a real problem - there is an 8 foot high listed cob wall to 
> the south of my bungalow so I need the dish to be above that. The south 
> facing part of the bungalow is visible from the road. I have a flat roof 
> at the back but a dish there would point into a group of evergreen trees 
> (not mine and also protected).
> 
> Anybody got any suggestions as to ways round this - step 1 would be to 
> apply for planning permission but if that is refused might I get away 
> with sticking a post in the ground, say 4x4 and about 8 feet high and 
> put the dish on that? Anybody got any wrinkles or tips? The village is 
> in a valley so there is no hope of any other type of reception apart 
> from satellite.
> 

Make it "mobile". eg, half a barrel, filled with concrete and a pole 
sticking out the top. The smaller the dish the better, as the less 
precisely it has to remain aligned with the satellite.

Works in a National Park. BTDTGTTS. A 1.2m dish was the only way I could 
get broadband at one time and no way would the Planners have approved 
that - but they couldn't do a thing against something that wasn't 
permanently attached to anything.

Unless the trees you mention are very high and/or very close, you may 
still have a line of sight - it is quite high up!.

--
Sue

On Tue, 13 May 2008 00:07:01 +0100, "Bill Wright"
 wrote:

>
>"Jeff Gaines"  wrote in message 
>news:xn0fq3upsoe39i002@news.individual.net...
>> Anybody got any suggestions as to ways round this - step 1 would be to 
>> apply for planning permission but if that is refused might I get away with 
>> sticking a post in the ground, say 4x4 and about 8 feet high and put the 
>> dish on that? Anybody got any wrinkles or tips? The village is in a valley 
>> so there is no hope of any other type of reception apart from satellite.
>
>If your latter statement is correct I suggest you put the onus on the 
>council to find a solution. Otherside they are infringing your human rights. 
>
Which human right would that be ?

>No doubt someone here will be able to quote the relevant ECC legislation.
>
>Otherwise:
>
>Without seeing the place it's impossible to advise on a solution, but I can 
>tell you that in 99.9% of cases a good installer will be able to find a 
>place where the dish works, yet can't be seen. Most trees have gaps.
>
>Don't forget that the signal comes down at quite a steep angle so you will 
>most likely be able to put the dish on the ground or at least very low down.
>
>There are various disguised dishes on the market.
>
>Could you put up a small shed or dog kennel with a wall or aperture made of 
>very thin plastic sheet, painted wood colour? Or a screen for a 'compost 
>heap'?
>
>In extremis, it is possible to make a mount that the dish will simply slot 
>into without any alignment. The stucture is then 'not permanent'. This works 
>if you can put the mount somewhere convenient to reach.
>
>
>Bill 
>

On 12 May 2008 21:34:50 GMT, Jeff Gaines wrote:

> I live in a conservation area and the local council are starting a purge 
> on satellite dishes, they have issued enforcement orders against owners of 
> listed buildings with dishes and apparently intend to move on to the rest 
> of us.

I would have thought a lot of them would be outside the 4 year limit on
enforcement.

Steve

On 13/05/2008 in message <la4Wj.720043$Gl5.475904@fe02.news.easynews.com> 
Palindrome wrote:

[snipped]

Many thanks for all the replies :-)

I have been Googling for dish alignment, I find the x degrees East of 
South terminology confusing - should the dish be aligned at about 151.8 
degrees true, about 156 degrees magnetic?

As far as vertical alignment is concerned dishes seem to be mounted almost 
flat or horizontal. If I could find a suitable place to put it on the 
ground would it need to point about 30 degrees up from horizontal? That's 
the killer for me because of this 8 foot high wall, and beyond that a 
thick tree belt and then the high ground that is to the South East of the 
village. If the satellites were overhead rather than on the horizon it 
would be a lot easier!

-- 
Jeff Gaines Damerham Hampshire UK
If you ever find something you like buy a lifetime supply because they 
will stop making it

Jeff Gaines wrote:
> On 13/05/2008 in message 
> <la4Wj.720043$Gl5.475904@fe02.news.easynews.com> Palindrome wrote:
> 
> [snipped]
> 
> Many thanks for all the replies :-)
> 
> I have been Googling for dish alignment, I find the x degrees East of 
> South terminology confusing - should the dish be aligned at about 151.8 
> degrees true, about 156 degrees magnetic?

The "South terminology" makes sense for those with steerable dishes. But 
you are right, just add or subtract them from 180 to get the true 
bearing. I wouldn't get too tied up about true North, magnetic North an 
grid North - just point the dish in roughly the right direction and then 
move it around a little, using a sat meter to "find" the satellite and 
align the dish. With a small dish, you shouldn't have a problem as it 
will start picking up signal even when not that well aligned.


> 
> As far as vertical alignment is concerned dishes seem to be mounted 
> almost flat or horizontal.

That is because those dishes use offset geometry, so a "look up" angle 
is built into the dish. You will need to move the dish up and down a bit 
(as well as left and right) to max the signal. Don't worry about 
aligning it - moving the dish around will soon find the satellite. Big 
dishes are a different matter..

> If I could find a suitable place to put it on 
> the ground would it need to point about 30 degrees up from horizontal?

The angle depends on the dish and the location (especially the 
latitude). When looking for a clear line of sight to the satellite, 
deduct your latitude from 90 and that is the angle up from the 
horizontal that needs to be clear of obstructions. It's quite steep!

The dish will almost certainly have a built-in offset, so the dish will 
be much nearer horizontal, even whilst looking up at a steep angle.


> That's the killer for me because of this 8 foot high wall, and beyond 
> that a thick tree belt and then the high ground that is to the South 
> East of the village. If the satellites were overhead rather than on the 
> horizon it would be a lot easier!
> 

Assuming that the bottom of your dish is 2 foot or so off the ground, it 
only needs to be about six foot from the wall to work, if you are around 
50 deg N latitude. By the time you have a metre or so of post, it can be 
so close to the wall that it would hit it, if it fell over..

--
Sue

"Charles Ellson"  wrote in message 
news:b8mh24didcf27lv8fg245imj12ugk36je6@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 13 May 2008 00:07:01 +0100, "Bill Wright"
>  wrote:
>
>>
>>"Jeff Gaines"  wrote in message
>>news:xn0fq3upsoe39i002@news.individual.net...
>>> Anybody got any suggestions as to ways round this - step 1 would be to
>>> apply for planning permission but if that is refused might I get away 
>>> with
>>> sticking a post in the ground, say 4x4 and about 8 feet high and put the
>>> dish on that? Anybody got any wrinkles or tips? The village is in a 
>>> valley
>>> so there is no hope of any other type of reception apart from satellite.
>>
>>If your latter statement is correct I suggest you put the onus on the
>>council to find a solution. Otherside they are infringing your human 
>>rights.
>>
> Which human right would that be ?
The right to watch PSB channels apparently. Thei issue was discussed here (I 
think it was here) some time ago and someone dug out the legislation.

Bill

On 13/05/2008 in message <1h8ihk6pq55dr.ra83qnqik7iq$.dlg@40tude.net> 
Steve wrote:

>I would have thought a lot of them would be outside the 4 year limit on
>enforcement.

I think it's 12 years in a conservation area unfortunately :-(

-- 
Jeff Gaines Damerham Hampshire UK
640k ought to be enough for anyone.
(Bill Gates, 1981)

"Palindrome"  wrote in message 
news:I8cWj.439439$uN4.124752@fe07.news.easynews.com...
> Jeff Gaines wrote:
>> On 13/05/2008 in message <la4Wj.720043$Gl5.475904@fe02.news.easynews.com> 
>> Palindrome wrote:
> The "South terminology" makes sense for those with steerable dishes. But 
> you are right, just add or subtract them from 180 to get the true bearing. 
> I wouldn't get too tied up about true North, magnetic North an grid 
> North - just point the dish in roughly the right direction and then move 
> it around a little, using a sat meter to "find" the satellite and align 
> the dish. With a small dish, you shouldn't have a problem as it will start 
> picking up signal even when not that well aligned.
A common misconception. To detect the presence of a signal it has to be xdB 
above the noise. Most of the noise comes from the LNB. A large dish will (on 
average) produce the same c/n ratio when x degrees off beam as will a small 
dish. The difference is that when the large dish is on beam the c/n ratio 
will be better. The reason I say 'on average' is because the side lobe 
pattern of a larger dish will be more pronounced, so at certain degrees off 
beam it will work much worse than a small dish equally misaligned, but at 
other degrees off beam it will work better. I know that it 'feels' harder to 
find a signal with a bigger dish, but it isn't really. I think it's just 
because a small dish is so much easier to move about, and when you move a 
big dish by x degrees it seems that you've moved it further than when you 
move a small dish by the same amount.

>
>> If I could find a suitable place to put it on the ground would it need to 
>> point about 30 degrees up from horizontal?
>
> The angle depends on the dish and the location (especially the latitude). 
> When looking for a clear line of sight to the satellite, deduct your 
> latitude from 90 and that is the angle up from the horizontal that needs 
> to be clear of obstructions. It's quite steep!
Doesn't the elevation work out at just slightly less than this? Near enough 
for a visual estimate though of course.

Take a look at
http://www.wrightsaerials.tv/reference/dish%20screened%20by%20roof.pdf

It might help you figure out the wall problem.

Bill

"Jeff Gaines"  wrote in message 
news:xn0fq3upsoe39i002@news.individual.net...
>
> I live in a conservation area and the local council are starting a purge 
> on satellite dishes, they have issued enforcement orders against owners of 
> listed buildings with dishes and apparently intend to move on to the rest 
> of us.
>
> I will have a real problem - there is an 8 foot high listed cob wall to 
> the south of my bungalow so I need the dish to be above that. The south 
> facing part of the bungalow is visible from the road. I have a flat roof 
> at the back but a dish there would point into a group of evergreen trees 
> (not mine and also protected).
>
> Anybody got any suggestions as to ways round this - step 1 would be to 
> apply for planning permission but if that is refused might I get away with 
> sticking a post in the ground, say 4x4 and about 8 feet high and put the 
> dish on that? Anybody got any wrinkles or tips? The village is in a valley 
> so there is no hope of any other type of reception apart from satellite.
>
At the rear of my garden is a house which is grade 2 listed, and they have 
installed a 12 foot tall "telegraph pole" (12 feet approx above ground) at 
the bottom of their garden (it also doubles as a clothes line support (the 
clothes line is below dish height)).  from me its "hidden" by a couple of 
tree's,  so I only noticed it when the tree's were recently trimmed!  I 
don't know how easy it would be for you to do similar,  and I know nothing 
of the techno side of things..  just thought it might help!

LL 



--
Posted via NewsDemon.com - Premium Uncensored Newsgroup Service
      ------->>>>>>http://www.NewsDem

On 13 May, 13:31, "loopy livernose"
<ifyouwanttoemai...@askfor.my.address> wrote:
> "Jeff Gaines"  wrote in message
>
> news:xn0fq3upsoe39i002@news.individual.net...
>
>
>
>
>
> > I live in a conservation area and the local council are starting a purge> > on satellite dishes, they have issued enforcement orders against owners of
> > listed buildings with dishes and apparently intend to move on to the rest
> > of us.
>
> > I will have a real problem - there is an 8 foot high listed cob wall to
> > the south of my bungalow so I need the dish to be above that. The south
> > facing part of the bungalow is visible from the road. I have a flat roof> > at the back but a dish there would point into a group of evergreen trees> > (not mine and also protected).
>
> > Anybody got any suggestions as to ways round this - step 1 would be to
> > apply for planning permission but if that is refused might I get away with
> > sticking a post in the ground, say 4x4 and about 8 feet high and put the> > dish on that? Anybody got any wrinkles or tips? The village is in a valley
> > so there is no hope of any other type of reception apart from satellite.> At the rear of my garden is a house which is grade 2 listed, and they have> installed a 12 foot tall "telegraph pole" (12 feet approx above ground) at> the bottom of their garden (it also doubles as a clothes line support (the> clothes line is below dish height)).  from me its "hidden" by a couple of
> tree's,  so I only noticed it when the tree's were recently trimmed!  I
> don't know how easy it would be for you to do similar,  and I know nothing
> of the techno side of things..  just thought it might help!

And another to add to the melting pot.........

You could have a dish installed at the North side of the property such
that it "looks" up over the roof at the satellite. - Assumming the
planners aren't going to spot it at the rear easily.

cpvh@o2.co.uk wrote:
<snip>
> You could have a dish installed at the North side of the property such
> that it "looks" up over the roof at the satellite. - Assumming the
> planners aren't going to spot it at the rear easily.

The planners don't need to spot it. If this particular conservation area 
is anything like the National Park that I live in, it will be reported 
to them before the ladder is back down. I recently repainted a barn door 
(the same colour) and the planning officer that phoned me the next day 
told me that he had already got 5 complaints. He came, checked the 
colour and went away. So I can now paint it bright yellow ;)

To be fair, when I needed a dish for work, it was the planning officer 
who mentioned that he couldn't do a thing, if it wasn't "nailed down". 
That dish had new complaints made against it every month, the whole time 
it was there. Tourists and walkers could see it from a nearby public 
footpath..

--
Sue

"Palindrome"  wrote in message 
news:VihWj.267235$i_6.11407@fe06.news.easynews.com...
> cpvh@o2.co.uk wrote:
> <snip>
> To be fair, when I needed a dish for work, it was the planning officer who 
> mentioned that he couldn't do a thing, if it wasn't "nailed down". That 
> dish had new complaints made against it every month, the whole time it was 
> there. Tourists and walkers could see it from a nearby public footpath..


It's time we took a more grown up attitude to satellite dishes, and other 
things that people want to fix to their own property.

Bill

On Tue, 13 May 2008 01:20:21 +0100, "Bill Wright"
 wrote:

>
>"Charles Ellson"  wrote in message 
>news:b8mh24didcf27lv8fg245imj12ugk36je6@4ax.com...
>> On Tue, 13 May 2008 00:07:01 +0100, "Bill Wright"
>>  wrote:
>>
>>>
>>>"Jeff Gaines"  wrote in message
>>>news:xn0fq3upsoe39i002@news.individual.net...
>>>> Anybody got any suggestions as to ways round this - step 1 would be to
>>>> apply for planning permission but if that is refused might I get away 
>>>> with
>>>> sticking a post in the ground, say 4x4 and about 8 feet high and put the
>>>> dish on that? Anybody got any wrinkles or tips? The village is in a 
>>>> valley
>>>> so there is no hope of any other type of reception apart from satellite.
>>>
>>>If your latter statement is correct I suggest you put the onus on the
>>>council to find a solution. Otherside they are infringing your human 
>>>rights.
>>>
>> Which human right would that be ?
>The right to watch PSB channels apparently. Thei issue was discussed here (I 
>think it was here) some time ago and someone dug out the legislation.
>
ITYF that said legislation merely enables international trade to take
place by treaty but does not avoid any copyright or general planning
restrictions or enable a clear signal path through another's property.
Anyway, it isn't a human right unless someone's found some very small
print in the International Convention on Human Rights.

On May 13, 8:23 am, "Jeff Gaines"  wrote:
>
> I have been Googling for dish alignment, I find the x degrees East of
> South terminology confusing - should the dish be aligned at about 151.8
> degrees true, about 156 degrees magnetic?
>
>
> --
> Jeff Gaines Damerham Hampshire UK
> If you ever find something you like buy a lifetime supply because they
> will stop making it

I find this online calculator very useful for getting a rough idea of
dish alignment:-

http://www.uksatellitehelp.co.uk/2007/08/12/satellite-alignment-calculator-v2/

On 13/05/2008 in message  Bill 
Wright wrote:

[snipped]

Many thanks for all the responses and ideas :-)

I now wait in trepidation to see what action, if any, the local council 
take in respect of the planning issue.

-- 
Jeff Gaines Damerham Hampshire UK
The facts, although interesting, are irrelevant

"Jeff Gaines"  wrote in message
news:xn0fq6dm0g6lwk006@news.individual.net...
> On 13/05/2008 in message  Bill
> Wright wrote:
>
> [snipped]
>
> Many thanks for all the responses and ideas :-)
>
> I now wait in trepidation to see what action, if any, the local council
> take in respect of the planning issue.

If you have £150 to throw at the problem the "Sqish" looks very interesting.
It's a "horn array" antenna that looks more like a large brick than a dish,
and there's no arm sticking out of the front because the LNB is at the back.
But the big selling point is the customised camouflage. You take a digital
photograph of the wall where the Sqish is going, send it to the
manufacturers, and they print out a vinyl sheet to stick to the flat front
so it matches the wall behind it. The sheet is transparent to the satellite
signal.

Close up to it people might wonder why you have a brick protruding from your
wall on a bracket, but it certainly doesn't look like a dish, it's smaller
than most other disguised dishes, and from a distance the camouflage should
hide it completely. Info here www.sqish.co.uk

Manual here
http://www.sqish.co.uk/downloads/H10Dmanual-English.pdf

Photo of the horn array with covers removed here
http://www.sat-zone.it/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=4784&Itemid=75

In article <g0iorn$pnt$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk>, Stephen <stephen@ju
nkmail.sptv.demon.co.uk> scribeth thus
>"Jeff Gaines"  wrote in message
>news:xn0fq6dm0g6lwk006@news.individual.net...
>> On 13/05/2008 in message  Bill
>> Wright wrote:
>>
>> [snipped]
>>
>> Many thanks for all the responses and ideas :-)
>>
>> I now wait in trepidation to see what action, if any, the local council
>> take in respect of the planning issue.
>
>If you have £150 to throw at the problem the "Sqish" looks very interesting.
>It's a "horn array" antenna that looks more like a large brick than a dish,
>and there's no arm sticking out of the front because the LNB is at the back.
>But the big selling point is the customised camouflage. You take a digital
>photograph of the wall where the Sqish is going, send it to the
>manufacturers, and they print out a vinyl sheet to stick to the flat front
>so it matches the wall behind it. The sheet is transparent to the satellite
>signal.
>
>Close up to it people might wonder why you have a brick protruding from your
>wall on a bracket, but it certainly doesn't look like a dish, it's smaller
>than most other disguised dishes, and from a distance the camouflage should
>hide it completely. Info here www.sqish.co.uk
>

Bu**ger!, As they say in Yorkshire, "theres nowt as queer as folk"!..

Why is it OK to have a thumping great Thelves DAT 45 on a large pole on
your chimney, yet a satellite dish more often then not installed lower
down on a wall has to be "disguised"..

Where, if any, is the logic in this?....


-- 
Tony Sayer

On 16/05/2008 in message <g0iorn$pnt$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk> Stephen 
wrote:

>If you have £150 to throw at the problem the "Sqish" looks very 
>interesting.
>It's a "horn array" antenna that looks more like a large brick than a dish,
>and there's no arm sticking out of the front because the LNB is at the 
>back.
>But the big selling point is the customised camouflage. You take a digital
>photograph of the wall where the Sqish is going, send it to the
>manufacturers, and they print out a vinyl sheet to stick to the flat front
>so it matches the wall behind it. The sheet is transparent to the satellite
>signal.

That is brilliant :-)

What we could all probably do with is a section of roof tiles that are 
transparent to the satellite signal, then the dish could go in the loft.

-- 
Jeff Gaines Damerham Hampshire UK
If it's not broken, mess around with it until it is