Hello Im just about to start in the hobby of rocketry and was
wondering which way to go I did do some of the estees a long time ago,
Some 15+ years ago. So yes I am getting on. I have been looking and
searching various sites and fourums and finding out certain things.
Asi like to try to reserch things before i get into them. Right I dont
want to go the way of a explosives cert even though I used to hold a
firearms cert which seams on paper a lot harder to hold. I was looking
more to the mid range power. But I then saw the Hybrid type engines.
Under UK law and normal rocket engines is it up to G that can be held
without the explosive cert and above you need one. Well if I have read
right the hybrid does not need any cert at all and there are engines
that exceed the G band. Am I correct in my thinking or would you need
the explosives cert for anything that exceeds a G. The other reason
that I am drawn to the hybrid is the fact that i have a 11lb NOX and
gauge sat in my workshop doing nothing.
Many thanks for you time and sorry to ramble on Regards Andy

On May 6, 11:27 am, scorpio_is_andy  wrote:

Your best bet would be to go to www.ukra.org.uk - the good news is
that you now don't need an explosives licence for the smaller motors
(up to ~K). It was not 'up to G' before, it was due to the propellant
type (AP). In fact, AP 'D' motors required a license previously.

Hybrids are interesting and can be fun to get to grips with, but I
think for getting back into it you'd be better off with smaller AP
motors, as E,F and G motors are now easily available.

Niall

On May 6, 7:04 pm, "Niall Oswald (via Google)"
 wrote:
> On May 6, 11:27 am, scorpio_is_andy  wrote:
>
> Your best bet would be to go towww.ukra.org.uk- the good news is
> that you now don't need an explosives licence for the smaller motors
> (up to ~K). It was not 'up to G' before, it was due to the propellant
> type (AP). In fact, AP 'D' motors required a license previously.

Thanks for the reply. I will have a try with the reloadable first.
(The Nox bottle can stop in storage), Where is the best place,  and
whats the best make of reloadable motor to get in the UK.. You say I
could use up to a K rated one without a licence what engine diameter/
size/length of motor would that be 29mm 38mm or?. I would be looking
at scratch building modle aound the motor (i.e.once i get a motor and
know its spec then build somthing to match it hopfully with a cad
programme as such)

Also would anyone know the nearest club or place to visit to see a
launch day and have a chat or somthing. I live in Chestefield,
Derbyshire

Again many thanks regards Andy

>You say I
>could use up to a K rated one without a licence what engine diameter/
>size/length of motor would that be 29mm 38mm or?.

Exempt stuff is mainly 29mm or 38mm up to J and 54 above J length depends on 
the reload.  Don't forget insurance is a real must for any rocket flight.

As I understand it basic BMFA membership gives you insurance for BP model 
rocket motors but they require you to fly to the UKRA safety code.  For any 
HPR recognise UKRA as the technical body and for any flight they require you 
to fly to the UKRA safety code which states you have to be L1 certified to 
fly H-I motors L2 certified to fly J-L and L3 certfied to fly M+ for 
insurance purposes.

>Where is the best place,  and
>whats the best make of reloadable motor to get in the UK

There are a number of dealers.  HPR stuff i would recommend rocketstore or 
rocket and things in no particular order.  Google will find them or a quick 
look at the UKRA website lists all the recommended dealers.  I would use one 
of them and certainly not any that aren't not listed without a 
recommendation as the list UKRA have is that which have given good honest 
service to its members and any that are not on the list have not been 
recommended by the membership for one reason or another.

Motor Makes - for easy insert and fly Ceseroni ProX motors for a more 
technical build Aerotech or Congireve motors.

AP Motors can not be delivered by post and must be collected from the shop 
or launch site.  A valid RCA document is required to transport any explosive 
from the shop/site to your house irrespective of licence exemption.

>(i.e.once i get a motor and
>know its spec then build somthing to match it hopfully with a cad
>programme as such)

for safety sake scratch build with the aid of some design software.  My 
personal choice is Rocksim (expensive but fully functioning 30 day demo is 
available(or SpaceCAD (cheaper but I could never get to grips with it 
compared to rocksim)  this will ensure you build with the correct CofG and 
CofP margins as well as predict flight patterns, altitude and stability 
under different motors

>Also would anyone know the nearest club or place to visit to see a
.launch day and have a chat or something. I live in Chesterfield,
>Derbyshire

EARS in Cambridge or Blacknights/ Midland Rocketry would probably be your 
best as active flying clubs for HPR  - There is a comprehensive list on the 
UKRA website.

I would certainly come to one of the next HPR meets have a look round chat 
to people to see whats going on and certainly join UKRA for access to a 
wealth of information via its members forums.  Access to its safety and 
technical areas and of course a very comprehensive public liability 
insurance.


Good look and hope to see you at future launches

Damian


Damian Burrin
UKRA 1159 Level 2 RSO

http://www.ukrocketry.com
http://www.larf-rocketry.co.uk

LARF - Putting the amateur back in rocketry!!

Thanks again for the info. I will try to get this weekend to the
midland launch. As for insurance as you say its a good idea and I will
be joining UKRA.

One thing you said about AP reloads I saw the following on a site
 "Ammonium Perchlorate (AP) Motors from Aerotech (D-N) and Cesaroni (G-
N)
Although many of these engines are for mid power rocketry, an
Explosives License and other documentation is still required in order
to purchase and transport these engines. However the law is changing
and soon you will be able to purchase and store up to 5Kg of net
propellant without the need for the documentation. "

It says the law is changing  in what way. If you can keep and use the
motors you mentioned without the need for a explosives license why do
you need one to collect them from the shop/site to transport them from
home and so on?

Are all reloads made from AP?

All being well I look forward to getting more info this weekend

Regards Andy

On 7 May, 22:25, scorpio_is_andy  wrote:

> It says the law is changing  in what way. If you can keep and use the
> motors you mentioned without the need for a explosives license why do
> you need one to collect them from the shop/site to transport them from
> home and so on?

Here is the info - http://ukra.org.uk/node/560

You do not need a *license* to transport them, but you do require an
RCA document. This - I believe - is obtained simply by asking for one,
no money/security check/etc involved, unlike an Acquire+Keep license.

1kg of AP is approximately 2000Ns (depending on motor specifics),
which covers most of the motors regularly flown in the UK (Pro54 K570
just comes in under 1kg I believe).

> Are all reloads made from AP?

Yes. There are also single use AP motors available in the mid-power (D/
E/F/G range) and HPR SU motors are certainly available in the USA.

Niall

On May 8, 9:35 am, "Niall Oswald (via Google)"
 wrote:
> On 7 May, 22:25, scorpio_is_andy  wrote:
>
> > It says the law is changing  in what way. If you can keep and use the
> > motors you mentioned without the need for a explosives license why do
> > you need one to collect them from the shop/site to transport them from
> > home and so on?
>
> Here is the info -http://ukra.org.uk/node/560
>
> You do not need a *license* to transport them, but you do require an
> RCA document. This - I believe - is obtained simply by asking for one,
> no money/security check/etc involved, unlike an Acquire⧧ license.
>
> 1kg of AP is approximately 2000Ns (depending on motor specifics),
> which covers most of the motors regularly flown in the UK (Pro54 K570
> just comes in under 1kg I believe).
>
> > Are all reloads made from AP?
>
> Yes. There are also single use AP motors available in the mid-power (D/
> E/F/G range) and HPR SU motors are certainly available in the USA.
>
> Niall

Thanks Niall

That simplyfies it quit alot

Regs Andy

On May 6, 7:04 pm, "Niall Oswald (via Google)"
 wrote:
> On May 6, 11:27 am, scorpio_is_andy  wrote:
>
> Your best bet would be to go towww.ukra.org.uk- the good news is
> that you now don't need an explosives licence for the smaller motors
> (up to ~K). It was not 'up to G' before, it was due to the propellant
> type (AP). In fact, AP 'D' motors required a license previously.
>
> Hybrids are interesting and can be fun to get to grips with, but I
> think for getting back into it you'd be better off with smaller AP
> motors, as E,F and G motors are now easily available.
>
> Niall

Is this official now then - I don't need an explosives license for up
to 1kg of AP propellant? I know it was mentioned a couple of times a
few months ago, but hadn't realised that it had all gone through.  Can
anyone point me towards some legal documentation on this? I may be
tempted to get back into rocketry if this is correct. I could never be
bothered with applying for an explosives license, as I wouldn't have
been able to apply for an Acquire & Keep as I live in rented
accommodation.

James.

> for safety sake scratch build with the aid of some design software.  My
> personal choice is Rocksim (expensive but fully functioning 30 day demo is
> available(or SpaceCAD (cheaper but I could never get to grips with it
> compared to rocksim)  this will ensure you build with the correct CofG and
> CofP margins as well as predict flight patterns, altitude and stability
> under different motors

There used to be a program called VCP that would do CP calculations,
and although it wouldn't do complex rocket shapes (e.g. tubular fins,
strap-on boosters) it could handle multi-stage rockets, multiple body-
diameter transistions, and was quite adequate for what I needed. It
was also very very easy to use. Don't know if it's still available,
but definitely worth googling for. If not, I have a copy of it I can
send you (I believe it was freely distributable).

James.

>Is this official now then

Yes

> I don't need an explosives license for up
to 1kg of AP propellant?

5kg net mass but each individual item must be less than 1kg net mass

>Can
>anyone point me towards some legal documentation on >this?

http://www.ukra.org.uk/node/560 not the actual document but a synopsis. 
Further detail can no doubt be got from the HSE website.

> wouldn't have
>been able to apply for an Acquire & Keep as I live in >rented
>accommodation.

Why did that keep you out of rocketry.  I've only had an aquire only for 
years now - aquire and keep got silly due to house insurance.  I only bought 
motors i intended to fly and gave back the motors i didn't use to the 
dealers.  never been a problem, what most people did.

Don't forget it is still a legal requirement to have an RCA document to 
transport the explosive even though they are exempt from an explosive cert. 
These are easily got via the HSE.

You also still need an explosive cert if you intend to aquire or aquire and 
keep BP

Damian


-- 
Damian Burrin
UKRA 1159 Level 2 RSO

http://www.ukrocketry.com
http://www.larf-rocketry.co.uk

LARF - Putting the amateur back in rocketry!!

On Thu, 15 May 2008 07:59:15 -0700 (PDT), "james.padfield@gmail.com"
 wrote:

>
>> for safety sake scratch build with the aid of some design software.  My
>> personal choice is Rocksim (expensive but fully functioning 30 day demo is
>> available(or SpaceCAD (cheaper but I could never get to grips with it
>> compared to rocksim)  this will ensure you build with the correct CofG and
>> CofP margins as well as predict flight patterns, altitude and stability
>> under different motors
>
>There used to be a program called VCP that would do CP calculations,
>and although it wouldn't do complex rocket shapes (e.g. tubular fins,
>strap-on boosters) it could handle multi-stage rockets, multiple body-
>diameter transistions, and was quite adequate for what I needed. It
>was also very very easy to use. Don't know if it's still available,
>but definitely worth googling for. If not, I have a copy of it I can
>send you (I believe it was freely distributable).

http://v-serv.com/vcp/

I particularly like the transition template generator.


-- 
Darren J Longhorn    http://www.geocities.com/darrenlonghorn/
NSRG #005            http://www.northstarrocketry.org.uk/
/UKRA #1094 /L2 /RSO http://www.ukra.org.uk/

On May 15, 10:47 pm, Darren J Longhorn  wrote:
> >There used to be a program called VCP that would do CP calculations,
> >and although it wouldn't do complex rocket shapes (e.g. tubular fins,
> >strap-on boosters) it could handle multi-stage rockets, multiple body-
> >diameter transistions, and was quite adequate for what I needed. It
> >was also very very easy to use. Don't know if it's still available,
> >but definitely worth googling for. If not, I have a copy of it I can
> >send you (I believe it was freely distributable).
>
> http://v-serv.com/vcp/
>
> I particularly like the transition template generator.

There you go, thanks Darren. In addition, for those who want to model
the aerodynamic drag of their rocket, I used to use another free
program called AeroLab. And for free trajectory simulation, Launch.
IIRC, both were freely distributable and written by members of DARK, a
Danish amateur rocketry group.

James.

On May 15, 6:20 pm, "Damian Burrin"  wrote:
> >Is this official now then
>
> Yes
>
> > I don't need an explosives license for up
>
> to 1kg of AP propellant?
>
> 5kg net mass but each individual item must be less than 1kg net mass

Excellent!

> >Can
> >anyone point me towards some legal documentation on >this?
>
> http://www.ukra.org.uk/node/560not the actual document but a synopsis.
> Further detail can no doubt be got from the HSE website.

Thanks Damien.

> > wouldn't have
> >been able to apply for an Acquire & Keep as I live in >rented
> >accommodation.
>
> Why did that keep you out of rocketry.  I've only had an aquire only for
> years now - aquire and keep got silly due to house insurance.  I only bought
> motors i intended to fly and gave back the motors i didn't use to the
> dealers.  never been a problem, what most people did.

Partly because of cost, and partly because of not always being able or
wanting to go to organised launches.

> Don't forget it is still a legal requirement to have an RCA document to
> transport the explosive even though they are exempt from an explosive cert.
> These are easily got via the HSE.

How does one go about getting hold of the RCA? I looked into it years
ago, but I've forgotten.

> You also still need an explosive cert if you intend to aquire or aquire and
> keep BP

The Aerotech and Cesaroni Pro38 motors don't require separate, loose
BP charges (unless you're doing some sort of dual-deployment recovery
system) do they?

James.

>How does one go about getting hold of the RCA? I >looked into it years
>ago, but I've forgotten.

Just give them a ring.  The number is on the HSE website can't remember it 
off hand.  There are some detiails on the UKRA forums.

>The Aerotech and Cesaroni Pro38 motors don't require >separate, loose
>BP charges (unless you're doing some sort of dual->deployment recovery
>system) do they?

No but if you want to do dual deployment you will have to find an 
alternative to BP unless you get the explosive cert for it.

Damian



-- 
Damian Burrin
UKRA 1159 Level 2 RSO

http://www.ukrocketry.com
http://www.larf-rocketry.co.uk

LARF - Putting the amateur back in rocketry!!

Darren J Longhorn wrote:
> On Thu, 15 May 2008 07:59:15 -0700 (PDT), "james.padfield@gmail.com"
>  wrote:
> 
>> There used to be a program called VCP that would do CP calculations,
>> and although it wouldn't do complex rocket shapes (e.g. tubular fins,
>> strap-on boosters) it could handle multi-stage rockets, multiple body-
>> diameter transistions, and was quite adequate for what I needed. It
>> was also very very easy to use. Don't know if it's still available,
>> but definitely worth googling for. If not, I have a copy of it I can
>> send you (I believe it was freely distributable).
> 
> http://v-serv.com/vcp/
> 
> I particularly like the transition template generator.

A more up to date version is available here:
http://myweb.cableone.net/cjcrowell/VCPMAIN.htm

-- 
        "It'll be fine.  I've done this before." - M. Garibaldi
-------------+------------------------------+----------------------------
  Adrian Hurt | E-mail: adrian@macs.hw.ac.uk |
              | UKRA:   1026                 | Orangutan in space: 5/8/01