Although off-topic, my question is sort of relevant to this group in
that it is prompted by my wishing to buy a PVR. (As to which one, I'll
leave that to a future, fully on topic, question!).  Consequently I'll
need to at least store the VCR away in a cupboard, if not get rid of
it altogether, as there won't be room for it alongside the new
gadget.  This won't be a problem on the whole as it is currently used
mainly for time shifting so will become almost redundant.  However,
there are a few VHS tapes that I would like to transfer onto DVD.  As
I don't plan to buy a DVD recorder but do have DVD burning facilities
in my PC, I'm thinking that some sort of video capture via the PC is
the way to go.  I have been able to find two basic approaches:

1. USB video capture device that I plug the VCR into and it produces
some kind of digitised output.  There are a few alternatives out
there.  Most come with some kind of editing/DVD creation software.
Reviews are very mixed.  Overall I get the impression that none are
particularly good and the bundled software is pretty ropey.

2. Internal card to be installed inside the PC.  These seem to be
variations on TV tuner cards - I haven't found anything specifically
for the job I want but at least some of them seem that they will do it
as an extra.  On the whole these seem to be more expensive than the
external devices, but I suspect this is because of the additional
functionality.  However, I wonder whether the fact that they are
internal devices provides significant benefit to make the extra
expense worthwhile.

I'm looking for reasonable quality without problems such as losing
sync with the sound.  Some of the tapes may be a couple of hours or
so.  I will want to do some basic editing.  e.g. some of these tapes
contain sections that are used for teaching by a family member.
Sometimes these sections are in the middle of a load of irrelevant
stuff that we won't keep; sometimes there are a bunch of sections such
that it would be nice to split them up into individual DVD items.
However, there isn't a huge amount of this sort of thing and it
doesn't have to be too precise in terms of the chopping or very snazzy
in terms of menu presentation or anything.

One thing I'm not sure about is whether my PC graphics card is
relevant to any of this.  My current PC is one I recently built so has
decent processor and memory but I am currently using the integrated
graphics provided by the motherboard. This has been absolutely fine
for everything I have needed it for so far.

I don't have so many VHS tapes that I want to spend too much on this -
£100 is probably my limit.

Recommendations for hardware / software and any tips will be
appreciated.

Thanks.
~~
Bob

Or this?

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Tony.



 wrote in message 
news:dda3d6cb-6f34-494d-a5d3-e43884633eb1@a8g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
Although off-topic, my question is sort of relevant to this group in
that it is prompted by my wishing to buy a PVR. (As to which one, I'll
leave that to a future, fully on topic, question!).  Consequently I'll
need to at least store the VCR away in a cupboard, if not get rid of
it altogether, as there won't be room for it alongside the new
gadget.  This won't be a problem on the whole as it is currently used
mainly for time shifting so will become almost redundant.  However,
there are a few VHS tapes that I would like to transfer onto DVD.  As
I don't plan to buy a DVD recorder but do have DVD burning facilities
in my PC, I'm thinking that some sort of video capture via the PC is
the way to go.  I have been able to find two basic approaches:

1. USB video capture device that I plug the VCR into and it produces
some kind of digitised output.  There are a few alternatives out
there.  Most come with some kind of editing/DVD creation software.
Reviews are very mixed.  Overall I get the impression that none are
particularly good and the bundled software is pretty ropey.

2. Internal card to be installed inside the PC.  These seem to be
variations on TV tuner cards - I haven't found anything specifically
for the job I want but at least some of them seem that they will do it
as an extra.  On the whole these seem to be more expensive than the
external devices, but I suspect this is because of the additional
functionality.  However, I wonder whether the fact that they are
internal devices provides significant benefit to make the extra
expense worthwhile.

I'm looking for reasonable quality without problems such as losing
sync with the sound.  Some of the tapes may be a couple of hours or
so.  I will want to do some basic editing.  e.g. some of these tapes
contain sections that are used for teaching by a family member.
Sometimes these sections are in the middle of a load of irrelevant
stuff that we won't keep; sometimes there are a bunch of sections such
that it would be nice to split them up into individual DVD items.
However, there isn't a huge amount of this sort of thing and it
doesn't have to be too precise in terms of the chopping or very snazzy
in terms of menu presentation or anything.

One thing I'm not sure about is whether my PC graphics card is
relevant to any of this.  My current PC is one I recently built so has
decent processor and memory but I am currently using the integrated
graphics provided by the motherboard. This has been absolutely fine
for everything I have needed it for so far.

I don't have so many VHS tapes that I want to spend too much on this -
£100 is probably my limit.

Recommendations for hardware / software and any tips will be
appreciated.

Thanks.
~~
Bob

Hi All

Whilst on the subject of VHS/DVD transfer.

I am  about to transfer hundreds (literally hundreds) of VHS tapes to 
dvd and am thinking of using a VHS/DVD recorder combo unit.  They are 
almost entirely home recordings of obscure art and photography 
programmes that will never be available on commercial dvd, along with a 
fair few classic comedies.

My idea being to dump everything to dvd - whole tapes regardless of 
whether I want the entire 3 hours worth or not.  That way i can just 
have the unit sitting on my desk at work and feed tapes/dvds in as 
required and should be able to get 3 or 4 done a day with minimal 
fannying about.  Once the project is done I could always then put combo 
onto fleabay and get a few pennies back or just stick it under the tv in 
the bedroom.

I could use a VHS/USB device, my PC is more than capable but it would 
mean that it would be tied up for hours at a time which I can't really 
do.  Plus I am told that if resources do become stretched on the pc as a 
result of doing the capture and then trying to run memory hungry 
software as well that i am likely to get frames being dropped - not a 
huge issue in itself but the problem being that dropped frames result in 
cumulative sound sync problems which would be a big issue.

Having transferred them to DVD they will then be in an editable format 
where i can chop them up and then put the items I actually want onto a 1 
TB hard drive, sorting out programmes into titles or genres and dropping 
them into the relevant folder on the drive.

If paranoia sets in and I decide that the bog standard dvds I used 
initially may not be stable, instead of buying supposedly archival gold 
discs initially, I could buy a second 1TB drive with the money saved in 
the deifference between gold and standard branded discs (gold discs = 
£1 each, branded discs = 25p each. 1 TB ought to hold upto 600 hours of 
video which equates to 12p per gig compared to a gold disc at 21p per 
gig assuming you have no duff discs, overruns etc)

The downside to this method is that if my wife wants to use one of the 
art programmes at school I would have to either write her a dvd or dump 
it onto a memory stick.  The advantage is that if DVD (or rather when 
dvd)and or USB2 becomes obsolete transferring the data from the 1 TB 
drive to whatever the new format is will be relatively pain free.

The downside to both methods is the time and expense!

I reckon that a DVD/VHS recorder is going to cost 160 quid (Daewoo 
DRVT35 from Tesco is 159) although I think i would rather spend a bit 
more and buy a 'quality' branded unit - reviews of Daewoo audio visual 
kit are a bit thin on the ground so its hard to easily determine just 
how good they are.  Panasonic, Toshiba and Sony etc may not actually be 
any better but at least you can find user reviews!  Then of course there 
is the debate as to whether or not I throw around 225 quid at the unit 
and buy one with a HD built in.  I could also buy just a DVD recorder 
and wire up my video recorder output to it - not sure if this would be 
opening a can of worms with quality of transfer etc, plus I'd have to 
buy anothe VHS player as I'd not be popular at home if I comandeered the 
  VCR for a couple of months!

So question is - can anyone see a major flaw in my reasonining or a 
better solution?

All suggestions welcomed as I have been running this around in my head 
for a week and am still only half convinced that my solution is the best 
one!








amp is wrote:
> Or this?
> 
> http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=224587&C=Newsletter&U=08P10-1&T=-10736207
> 
> 
> And up to £25 off your order with this
> https://www.maplin.co.uk/Subscribe_Email.aspx
> 
> 
> 
> Tony.
> 
> 
> 
>  wrote in message 
> news:dda3d6cb-6f34-494d-a5d3-e43884633eb1@a8g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> Although off-topic, my question is sort of relevant to this group in
> that it is prompted by my wishing to buy a PVR. (As to which one, I'll
> leave that to a future, fully on topic, question!).  Consequently I'll
> need to at least store the VCR away in a cupboard, if not get rid of
> it altogether, as there won't be room for it alongside the new
> gadget.  This won't be a problem on the whole as it is currently used
> mainly for time shifting so will become almost redundant.  However,
> there are a few VHS tapes that I would like to transfer onto DVD.  As
> I don't plan to buy a DVD recorder but do have DVD burning facilities
> in my PC, I'm thinking that some sort of video capture via the PC is
> the way to go.  I have been able to find two basic approaches:
> 
> 1. USB video capture device that I plug the VCR into and it produces
> some kind of digitised output.  There are a few alternatives out
> there.  Most come with some kind of editing/DVD creation software.
> Reviews are very mixed.  Overall I get the impression that none are
> particularly good and the bundled software is pretty ropey.
> 
> 2. Internal card to be installed inside the PC.  These seem to be
> variations on TV tuner cards - I haven't found anything specifically
> for the job I want but at least some of them seem that they will do it
> as an extra.  On the whole these seem to be more expensive than the
> external devices, but I suspect this is because of the additional
> functionality.  However, I wonder whether the fact that they are
> internal devices provides significant benefit to make the extra
> expense worthwhile.
> 
> I'm looking for reasonable quality without problems such as losing
> sync with the sound.  Some of the tapes may be a couple of hours or
> so.  I will want to do some basic editing.  e.g. some of these tapes
> contain sections that are used for teaching by a family member.
> Sometimes these sections are in the middle of a load of irrelevant
> stuff that we won't keep; sometimes there are a bunch of sections such
> that it would be nice to split them up into individual DVD items.
> However, there isn't a huge amount of this sort of thing and it
> doesn't have to be too precise in terms of the chopping or very snazzy
> in terms of menu presentation or anything.
> 
> One thing I'm not sure about is whether my PC graphics card is
> relevant to any of this.  My current PC is one I recently built so has
> decent processor and memory but I am currently using the integrated
> graphics provided by the motherboard. This has been absolutely fine
> for everything I have needed it for so far.
> 
> I don't have so many VHS tapes that I want to spend too much on this -
> £100 is probably my limit.
> 
> Recommendations for hardware / software and any tips will be
> appreciated.
> 
> Thanks.
> ~~
> Bob
> 
>

In article <g9o7vb$pql$1@gemini.csx.cam.ac.uk>, Dudley Simons wrote:
> My idea being to dump everything to dvd - whole tapes regardless of 
> whether I want the entire 3 hours worth or not.  That way i can just 
> have the unit sitting on my desk at work and feed tapes/dvds in as 
> required and should be able to get 3 or 4 done a day with minimal 
> fannying about.  Once the project is done I could always then put combo 
> onto fleabay and get a few pennies back or just stick it under the tv in 
> the bedroom.

You'll get a neater result if you use a combined HDD/DVD recorder with 
rudimentary editing facilities, and a separate VHS player fed through a 
SCART unput. Copy to HDD first, trim the rubbish at beginning and end of 
each recording, and adverts if necessary, then copy the result to DVD.

Both copying processes can be unattended (overnight if you like) and the 
HDD to DVD copy only requires one piece of equipment to be powered on. It 
only takes about 10 minutes to whittle down a two hour plus broadcast of a 
movie with adverts to an uninterrupted recording of about 90 minutes, which 
will not only be less irritating to watch but improve the quality of the 
DVD copy because the file is smaller.

If any of your VHS recordings are published ones (rather than off-air) you 
might have to buy a Macrovision remover, but you should only use it for 
recordings that actually have Macrovision coding because sometimes they 
make poor quality recordings look worse.

You probably won't want to keep a VHS/DVD combo, but a HDD/DVD combo with a 
Freeview tuner will remain useful for some time, and the only thing you'll 
want to get rid of will be a VHS machine, which is fairly cheap.

Rod.
-- 
Virtual Access V6.3 free usenet/email software from 
http://sourceforge.net/projects/virtual-access/

Roderick Stewart wrote:
> In article <g9o7vb$pql$1@gemini.csx.cam.ac.uk>, Dudley Simons wrote:
>> My idea being to dump everything to dvd - whole tapes regardless of 
>> whether I want the entire 3 hours worth or not.  That way i can just 
>> have the unit sitting on my desk at work and feed tapes/dvds in as 
>> required and should be able to get 3 or 4 done a day with minimal 
>> fannying about.  Once the project is done I could always then put combo 
>> onto fleabay and get a few pennies back or just stick it under the tv in 
>> the bedroom.
> 
> You'll get a neater result if you use a combined HDD/DVD recorder with 
> rudimentary editing facilities, and a separate VHS player fed through a 
> SCART unput. Copy to HDD first, trim the rubbish at beginning and end of 
> each recording, and adverts if necessary, then copy the result to DVD.
> 
> Both copying processes can be unattended (overnight if you like) and the 
> HDD to DVD copy only requires one piece of equipment to be powered on. It 
> only takes about 10 minutes to whittle down a two hour plus broadcast of a 
> movie with adverts to an uninterrupted recording of about 90 minutes, which 
> will not only be less irritating to watch but improve the quality of the 
> DVD copy because the file is smaller.
> 
> If any of your VHS recordings are published ones (rather than off-air) you 
> might have to buy a Macrovision remover, but you should only use it for 
> recordings that actually have Macrovision coding because sometimes they 
> make poor quality recordings look worse.
> 
> You probably won't want to keep a VHS/DVD combo, but a HDD/DVD combo with a 
> Freeview tuner will remain useful for some time, and the only thing you'll 
> want to get rid of will be a VHS machine, which is fairly cheap.
> 
> Rod.

-I am not sure if I am missing something here but i can't see the 
attraction in transferring straight to the HDD of an HDD/DVD unit and 
then writing to DVD.  I don't want to use DVD as a long term archival 
storage solution - how long can you reliably store data on a home 
written DVD be it a branded standard dvd or an archival gold one?

The HDD recorder would fill relatively quickly and I would then have to 
download to dvd to free up more space to carry on the transfer.  Given 
that I don't trust the longeviety of dvds I would also still have to 
load the dvd onto a 1 TB drive making the generation of the dvds 
pointless.  So I would probably end up downloading the HDD recorder via 
USB through my laptop to a 1 TB external drive.

With my solution the dvd is only a short term storage solution.  Once I 
have a few DVDs generated I can start editting them down and filing them 
onto a 1 TB external drive.  Having transferred an entire video cassette 
to DVD I can 'scan' the dvd into my editing software (Ulead) relatively 
quickly to see what I actually want to save long term - much quicker 
than scanning through videos, drop in the start and stops and write the 
finished programme to the TB hard drive.

or at least I think thats what I can do :o)



regards



Dudley

Dudley Simons wrote:
> -I am not sure if I am missing something here but i can't see the
> attraction in transferring straight to the HDD of an HDD/DVD unit
> and then writing to DVD.  I don't want to use DVD as a long term
> archival storage solution - how long can you reliably store data on
> a home written DVD be it a branded standard dvd or an archival gold
> one?

<snip>

I guess it depends on whether you're more paranoid about long-term DVD
storage or long-term HDD storage ;-) . I work on the assumption that
my DVD+Rs will almost certainly be readable on at least one drive on
at least one machine, and, as long as that's the case, I can then copy
them across to something else in due course.

But going back to your original reason for the query - transfer from
VHS to [something digital] - I also would be very interested in
comments on the pros and cons of specific PC cards/USB connector boxes
etc. I am used to transferring recordings from my Topfield PVR to the
PC, editing out adverts etc., then authoring and burning a DVD. What I
can't currently do is get the old VHS tapes (S-VHS, actually, so I
hope they won't be too dire) onto the PC to start the process.

André Coutanche

André Coutanche wrote:
> Dudley Simons wrote:
>> -I am not sure if I am missing something here but i can't see the
>> attraction in transferring straight to the HDD of an HDD/DVD unit
>> and then writing to DVD.  I don't want to use DVD as a long term
>> archival storage solution - how long can you reliably store data on
>> a home written DVD be it a branded standard dvd or an archival gold
>> one?
> 
> <snip>
> 
> I guess it depends on whether you're more paranoid about long-term DVD
> storage or long-term HDD storage ;-) . I work on the assumption that
> my DVD+Rs will almost certainly be readable on at least one drive on
> at least one machine, and, as long as that's the case, I can then copy
> them across to something else in due course.
> 
> But going back to your original reason for the query - transfer from
> VHS to [something digital] - I also would be very interested in
> comments on the pros and cons of specific PC cards/USB connector boxes
> etc. I am used to transferring recordings from my Topfield PVR to the
> PC, editing out adverts etc., then authoring and burning a DVD. What I
> can't currently do is get the old VHS tapes (S-VHS, actually, so I
> hope they won't be too dire) onto the PC to start the process.
> 
> André Coutanche
> 
> 
> 
> 


Do you still have an S Video VCR?

It seems to me that the various cards and conversion 'boxes' which are 
in or connected to the PC all have the potential to suffer from frame 
dropping (which in turn leads to sound synch issues?) although I haven't 
had that categorically confirmed or denied by 'an expert'.



Dudley

I've tried three generations of capture cards and they've all been
irredeemably cr*p.  The current nVidia GeForce FX5600 cannot maintain
sync between video and audio; worse still the sync gets progressively
worse, so you can't correct it by using a suitable offset when
reauthoring!

Like Rod, I plugged my VCR into a HD DVD Recorder, specifically a
Panasonic DMR-E100H, though I imagine any Panny model would certainly
do, and probably most others.

I cleaned up the recordings a bit using the recorder's primitive
editing facilities, and then copied them via DVD-RAM to my PC for
final clean up and authoring onto DVD-Rs.

DVD+-RW would also be an option for transfer, but that model doesn't
support them, and neither was there an ethernet or USB model around at
the time, otherwise that would probably have been an even better
option.

If it's any help, I've done some web pages about the recorder,
including specifically the transfer process, which is a bit of a
fiddle, here:
	http://tinyurl.com/6hhv5o
... standing in for ...
http://www.cemh.eclipse.co.uk/JavaJive/PanasonicDMRE100H/PanasonicDMRE100H.html

On Thu, 4 Sep 2008 15:53:49 +0100, "André Coutanche"
 wrote:

> But going back to your original reason for the query - transfer from
> VHS to [something digital] - I also would be very interested in
> comments on the pros and cons of specific PC cards/USB connector boxes
> etc. I am used to transferring recordings from my Topfield PVR to the
> PC, editing out adverts etc., then authoring and burning a DVD. What I
> can't currently do is get the old VHS tapes (S-VHS, actually, so I
> hope they won't be too dire) onto the PC to start the process.

Dudley Simons wrote:
> André Coutanche wrote:
>> What I can't currently do is get the old VHS tapes (S-VHS,
>> actually, so I hope they won't be too dire) onto the PC to start
>> the process.

> Do you still have an S Video VCR?

Yep - it was working when last used, and, in any case, its replacement
(now quietly biodegrading on the shelf below the PVR) can play back
(not record) S-VHS.

> It seems to me that the various cards and conversion 'boxes' which
> are in or connected to the PC all have the potential to suffer from 
> frame dropping (which in turn leads to sound synch issues?) although 
> I haven't had that categorically confirmed or denied by 'an expert'.

Oh dear. Java Jive's post following yours would seem to confirm that
:-( .

André Coutanche

In article <g9os0m$ki6$1@gemini.csx.cam.ac.uk>, Dudley Simons wrote:
> I am not sure if I am missing something here but i can't see the 
> attraction in transferring straight to the HDD of an HDD/DVD unit and 
> then writing to DVD.

I do it that way because the copying process itself can be timed and 
unattended, and it allows a certain amount of "tidying up" on the hard 
drive before copying to DVD, which in my case is the archive copy. DVD 
blanks are very cheap, they have no moving parts and zero power 
consumption, and I can fit quite a lot of them into a 3 litre "Very Useful 
Box", saving a lot of shelf space.

> I don't want to use DVD as a long term archival 
> storage solution - how long can you reliably store data on a home 
> written DVD be it a branded standard dvd or an archival gold one?

I don't think they'd been invented long enough for anybody to know for 
sure, but I'll be content if my DVDs outlast me.

Rod.
-- 
Virtual Access V6.3 free usenet/email software from 
http://sourceforge.net/projects/virtual-access/

"amp is"  wrote in message 
news:g9o09e$d5c$1@aioe.org...
> Or this?
>
> http://www.maplin.co.uk/Module.aspx?ModuleNo=224587&C=Newsletter&U=08P10-1&T=-10736207
>
>
> And up to £25 off your order with this
> https://www.maplin.co.uk/Subscribe_Email.aspx
>
>
>
> Tony.
>
>
>
>  wrote in message 
> news:dda3d6cb-6f34-494d-a5d3-e43884633eb1@a8g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> Although off-topic, my question is sort of relevant to this group in
> that it is prompted by my wishing to buy a PVR. (As to which one, I'll



<SNIP>



> Recommendations for hardware / software and any tips will be
> appreciated.
>
> Thanks.
> ~~
> Bob
>
>


Hi,


You should find pretty much any of the internal TV / capture cards (PCI, 
e.g. / etc.) will happily do the job.

With current technology, really, some of the "quality" or main brand, USB 
external devices should also cope by now. In the early days, they were a bit 
poor, but they and the technology should happily have caught up or improved 
now.

In short, for example, a second hand (if you want or necessary) Hauppauge 
WinTV card should easily do what you need or want (eBay - £10/20) or you can 
just go to PC World, eBuyer, etc.

What you will probably need or want to do is to "tune" your process. I.e. 
test and evaluate a process and procedure and determine the best settings 
for your configuration and desired end result product. Once this is done, 
you really need to have the or a PC "dedicated" to the process when 
capturing. You can either do this by grabbing an "oldish" machine you still 
have lying about (if you do have such a thing!), or work out an "out of 
hours procedure". I.e. at the end of the day or first thing in the morning 
or whenever you know the machine will be unattended, not needed, etc. for 
the duration of a VHS tape, you can start your routine to process another 
tape. Equally, you obviously (I assume) have the overnight period available 
(and this can probably cover two tapes)... set one lateish in the evening, 
then when that one is done, run down and stick another tape in to let it do 
whilst you go to bed.

This, together with fitting in a few during the day on average (e.g. first 
thing in the morning, when out for the day, etc., etc.), should see you 
slowly but reliably and consistently grinding through the archive!

You will then have some nice solid video data file dumps of your VHS 
collection which you can then edit at your leisure, etc.

The Hauppauge type cards are good for a nice solid 25 / 30 frames a second, 
with your choice of compression and resolutions that easily cover that of 
the original broadcast quality or VHS itself, etc. :) (without needing an 
overly powerful machine). But... the machine really probably does need to be 
dedicated to the task whilst capturing... otherwise... you will almost 
inevitably introduce frame skip, possible audio errors / glitches or synch 
issues, you may even crash or corrupt a capture, capture session or process 
entirely.

Hope that helps a bit.


Best wishes and good luck (all)!,



News Reader

"Roderick Stewart"  wrote in 
message news:VA.000004e2.028aca4d@escapetime.removethisbit.myzen.co.uk...
> In article <g9os0m$ki6$1@gemini.csx.cam.ac.uk>, Dudley Simons wrote:
>> I am not sure if I am missing something here but i can't see the
>> attraction in transferring straight to the HDD of an HDD/DVD unit and
>> then writing to DVD.
>
> I do it that way because the copying process itself can be timed and
> unattended, and it allows a certain amount of "tidying up" on the hard
> drive before copying to DVD, which in my case is the archive copy. DVD
> blanks are very cheap, they have no moving parts and zero power
> consumption, and I can fit quite a lot of them into a 3 litre "Very Useful
> Box", saving a lot of shelf space.
>
>> I don't want to use DVD as a long term archival
>> storage solution - how long can you reliably store data on a home
>> written DVD be it a branded standard dvd or an archival gold one?
>
> I don't think they'd been invented long enough for anybody to know for
> sure, but I'll be content if my DVDs outlast me.
>
> Rod.
> -- 
> Virtual Access V6.3 free usenet/email software from
> http://sourceforge.net/projects/virtual-access/
>


Hi,


I think DVD-R / CD-R shelf lifes are actually "comparatively short". I.e. in 
theory, for a standard disc, say 10 to 25 years. However, that probably 
assumes VERY good storage conditions (humidity controlled, dust sealed, 
light proofed - i.e. military type grade storage quality!). So in a 
"half-decent" home users attempt at good storage I think you may well find 
that within five to ten years some of yours discs will begin to flake, etc. 
And you may well find some entirely unreadable / unusable discs or discs 
with significant unreadable / unrecoverable blocks within that type of time 
frame.

The gold discs will probably help the reasonably concerted home user 
attempting decent storage environment to achieve 25 to 100 years (again a 
lot of this assumes your ability to maintain and control the environment - 
heating failure in winter or over heating issue in summer, containers 
breaking down and starting to allow humidity issues, etc. - and things can 
change / mean unexpected failures, etc.).


Best wishes,




News Reader

In article <kHWvk.187119$Ft5.102285@newsfe29.ams2>, News Reader wrote:
> I think DVD-R / CD-R shelf lifes are actually "comparatively short". I.e. in 
> theory, for a standard disc, say 10 to 25 years.

How do we know this, if they haven't been in existence for that long?

If you're going to say "accelerated life tests", then can I pre-empt you by 
asking how we can be certain of the relationship between the rate of 
deterioration under the test conditions and the rate of deterioration under 
real life conditions, when recordable disks haven't been in existence long 
enough for this relationship to be tested, and how do we know what test 
conditions to apply anyway?

Given that I'm 60 this year, how much do you think I am likely to care about 
DVDs in 25 years time?

Rod.
-- 
Virtual Access V6.3 free usenet/email software from 
http://sourceforge.net/projects/virtual-access/

News Reader wrote:

>I think DVD-R / CD-R shelf lifes are actually "comparatively short". I.e. in 
>theory, for a standard disc, say 10 to 25 years. [...]  So in a 
>"half-decent" home users attempt at good storage I think you may well find 
>that within five to ten years some of yours discs will begin to flake, etc. 
>
>The gold discs will probably help the reasonably concerted home user 
>attempting decent storage environment to achieve 25 to 100 years 
>
If one reads that posting whilst looking back over the wider
history of recording data - sound, video, computing - it is
littered with stuff which is probably in acceptable condition,
but there is no longer means of access.

My take is that we should pragmatically select from currently
available methods, with the knowledge that we can't predict the
future, but should be able to digitally copy that which matters
to us, with little or no loss of quality.

I guess I'm likely to degrade faster than my data  ;-)

Chris
-- 
Chris J Dixon  Nottingham UK
chris@cdixon.me.uk

Have dancing shoes, will ceilidh.

"Roderick Stewart"  wrote in 
message news:VA.000004e2.028aca4d@escapetime.removethisbit.myzen.co.uk...
>
> I don't think they'd been invented long enough for anybody to know for
> sure, but I'll be content if my DVDs outlast me.
>

When I bought an Epson scanner with the ability to scan transparencies and 
negatives it gave me the incentive to dig out dozens that had been laying 
around in a box for almost 40 years, virtually all of them still perfectly 
capable of producing good quality prints.

I can't help wondering that if in say 50 years' time someone stumbles across 
a load of old forgotten photo dvds whether there'll be many domestic dvd 
players around to play them on by then, that's of course assuming that the 
discs have stood the test of time.

That's one advantage of photography, even millions of still surviving 100 + 
year old glass plate negatives are still capable of producing some superb 
results using very basic equipment.

"Roderick Stewart"  wrote in 
message news:VA.000004e9.03d5232d@escapetime.removethisbit.myzen.co.uk...
> In article <kHWvk.187119$Ft5.102285@newsfe29.ams2>, News Reader wrote:
>> I think DVD-R / CD-R shelf lifes are actually "comparatively short". I.e. 
>> in
>> theory, for a standard disc, say 10 to 25 years.
>
> How do we know this, if they haven't been in existence for that long?
>
> If you're going to say "accelerated life tests", then can I pre-empt you 
> by
> asking how we can be certain of the relationship between the rate of
> deterioration under the test conditions and the rate of deterioration 
> under
> real life conditions, when recordable disks haven't been in existence long
> enough for this relationship to be tested, and how do we know what test
> conditions to apply anyway?
>
> Given that I'm 60 this year, how much do you think I am likely to care 
> about
> DVDs in 25 years time?
>
> Rod.
> -- 
> Virtual Access V6.3 free usenet/email software from
> http://sourceforge.net/projects/virtual-access/
>


Hi,


Your time frame expectations / outlook may be reasonable or acceptable in 
your case.

I think to evaluate real world life of these products is far from 
particularly difficult. I.e. DVD's and DVD-R's have been around for well 
over 5 / 10 years... and CDs and CD-R's significantly longer than this.

Based on real world experience with these... I am sure you and probably 
others you know, but certainly plenty of people / others generally, will be 
able to advise and report on deterioration of these items. If a factory 
grade pressed disc can begin to significantly deteriorate within these 
timeframes then one can be relatively sure / certain that that more 
susceptible recordable variants will have a markedly shorter life.

Plenty of people are likely to have experienced disc failure - partial or 
complete - in their experience or history of CDs / DVDs... perhaps you are 
relatively newer to this technology? Equally, more recently created DVDs / 
DVD-Rs etc., one hopes and might reasonably expect, are of higher quality - 
i.e. material and production technology can reasonably be expected to have 
improved from earlier generations, etc.

In any event - I think the short version is... have a sensible process or 
procedure in place, both your storage policy and conditions, also for 
performing periodic condition checks (physical and data reading performance, 
etc.), and expect and plan to re-create your DVD / CD R archives on a 
periodic basis - say... every 5/10 years conservatively or every 20/50 years 
optimistically.

As the other poster says, access to data is all that is really cared about, 
i.e. preservation and future access. Hence, it may be more sensible to go 
for alternative media now or in the future - e.g. two mirrored hard drives 
kept in separate quality environments, etc., etc.


Best wishes,




News Reader


P.s. I am not trying to be unhelpful, negative or pessimistic, just trying 
to ensure people don't take to much at face value regarding manufacturers 
claims - and advising / indicating that real world performance seems to have 
already demonstrated that with "good" (home user) storage conditions these 
products have deteriorated pretty quickly - 5/10 years rather than the 20/30 
claimed. Just trying to make sure no one gets a bitter disappointment when 
they or future generations go to use claimed archival material only to find 
it practically dis-integrating in their hands :) .

"Chris J Dixon"  wrote in message 
news:1pq1c41l2hqngoq94sf3du27vk8vo60rii@4ax.com...
> News Reader wrote:
>
>>I think DVD-R / CD-R shelf lifes are actually "comparatively short". I.e. 
>>in
>>theory, for a standard disc, say 10 to 25 years. [...]  So in a
>>"half-decent" home users attempt at good storage I think you may well find
>>that within five to ten years some of yours discs will begin to flake, 
>>etc.
>>
>>The gold discs will probably help the reasonably concerted home user
>>attempting decent storage environment to achieve 25 to 100 years
>>
> If one reads that posting whilst looking back over the wider
> history of recording data - sound, video, computing - it is
> littered with stuff which is probably in acceptable condition,
> but there is no longer means of access.
>
> My take is that we should pragmatically select from currently
> available methods, with the knowledge that we can't predict the
> future, but should be able to digitally copy that which matters
> to us, with little or no loss of quality.
>
> I guess I'm likely to degrade faster than my data  ;-)
>
> Chris
> -- 
> Chris J Dixon  Nottingham UK
> chris@cdixon.me.uk
>
> Have dancing shoes, will ceilidh.


Hi,


Thanks  :) ... pretty sure I essentially agree, please have a look at my 
previous reply to Rodericks post :).


Best wishes,



News Reader

In article <909wk.423054$JM.144758@newsfe16.ams2>, News Reader wrote:
> Based on real world experience with these... I am sure you and probably 
> others you know, but certainly plenty of people / others generally, will be 
> able to advise and report on deterioration of these items. If a factory 
> grade pressed disc can begin to significantly deteriorate within these 
> timeframes then one can be relatively sure / certain that that more 
> susceptible recordable variants will have a markedly shorter life.

I don't think that necessarily follows. Wouldn't the longevity of a recording 
depend on the materials it is made from, rather than the method used to make 
the recording? Whether it is factory pressed or laser etched ought not to make 
a difference.

> As the other poster says, access to data is all that is really cared about, 
> i.e. preservation and future access. Hence, it may be more sensible to go 
> for alternative media now or in the future - e.g. two mirrored hard drives 
> kept in separate quality environments, etc., etc.

Funny you should say that. All my photographs and documents go into my 
computer, which is backed up to two external hard drives on alternate days, so 
everything eventually exists as three physically separate copies, any one of 
which could easily be re-made from the others with a new drive. As the disks 
are 300GB and the daily backup only takes a few minutes, currently this method 
wins hands down on convenience alone.

Rod.
-- 
Virtual Access V6.3 free usenet/email software from 
http://sourceforge.net/projects/virtual-access/

In article , Ivan wrote:
> When I bought an Epson scanner with the ability to scan transparencies and 
> negatives it gave me the incentive to dig out dozens that had been laying 
> around in a box for almost 40 years, virtually all of them still perfectly 
> capable of producing good quality prints.
> 
> I can't help wondering that if in say 50 years' time someone stumbles across 
> a load of old forgotten photo dvds whether there'll be many domestic dvd 
> players around to play them on by then, that's of course assuming that the 
> discs have stood the test of time.

A good point, but once a picture is copied into electronic form, it needn't 
exist in only one place, like a negative in a box in the attic. If you can 
take on the monster task of scanning all your family photos (and once you 
start you realise what a monster task this really is), you can distribute 
disks to all your relatives, or upload them to Flickr, and that way everybody 
can have access to exactly the same files anywhere.

Rod.
-- 
Virtual Access V6.3 free usenet/email software from 
http://sourceforge.net/projects/virtual-access/

"Roderick Stewart"  wrote in 
message news:VA.000004f3.022c67c2@escapetime.removethisbit.myzen.co.uk...
> In article , Ivan wrote:
>> When I bought an Epson scanner with the ability to scan transparencies 
>> and
>> negatives it gave me the incentive to dig out dozens that had been laying
>> around in a box for almost 40 years, virtually all of them still 
>> perfectly
>> capable of producing good quality prints.
>>
>> I can't help wondering that if in say 50 years' time someone stumbles 
>> across
>> a load of old forgotten photo dvds whether there'll be many domestic dvd
>> players around to play them on by then, that's of course assuming that 
>> The
>> discs have stood the test of time.
>
> A good point, but once a picture is copied into electronic form, it 
> needn't
> exist in only one place, like a negative in a box in the attic. If you can
> take on the monster task of scanning all your family photos (and once you
> start you realise what a monster task this really is), you can distribute
> disks to all your relatives, or upload them to Flickr, and that way 
> everybody
> can have access to exactly the same files anywhere.
>

I totally agree with you Rod, I knew the instant I saw some of the very 
first demonstrations of electronic photography using a lot of large very 
bulky studio bound equipment (IIRC on Tomorrow's World back in the early 
1980s?) that if they could eventually reduce the camera down to a standard a 
35 mm size and considerably improve the not very good picture quality, that 
photography as we had known it for well over 100 years would virtually 
become obsolete almost overnight.




> Rod.
> -- 
> Virtual Access V6.3 free usenet/email software from
> http://sourceforge.net/projects/virtual-access/
>

"Roderick Stewart"  wrote in 
message news:VA.000004f2.022c665b@escapetime.removethisbit.myzen.co.uk...
> In article <909wk.423054$JM.144758@newsfe16.ams2>, News Reader wrote:
>> Based on real world experience with these... I am sure you and probably
>> others you know, but certainly plenty of people / others generally, will 
>> be
>> able to advise and report on deterioration of these items. If a factory
>> grade pressed disc can begin to significantly deteriorate within these
>> timeframes then one can be relatively sure / certain that that more
>> susceptible recordable variants will have a markedly shorter life.
>
> I don't think that necessarily follows. Wouldn't the longevity of a 
> recording
> depend on the materials it is made from, rather than the method used to 
> make
> the recording? Whether it is factory pressed or laser etched ought not to 
> make
> a difference.
>


Hi,


I believe or understand the essentially thinking here is that the record 
your own at home discs use typically organic dyes / substrates (substrate 
layers? - or something like that), and this are much more susceptible and 
less stable. Equally the recording equipment and overall total production 
environment is far less when a basic home produced version than a factory 
grade pressed output. I.e. typically, industrial grade production far 
outperforms home grade production. Perhaps the one or only real or true 
exception is excellent craft production in low volume (?).


Best wishes,




News Reader

"News Reader" <no@email.invalid> wrote in message 
news:dciwk.295743$D01.42481@newsfe17.ams2...
>
> "Roderick Stewart"  wrote in 
> message news:VA.000004f2.022c665b@escapetime.removethisbit.myzen.co.uk...
>> In article <909wk.423054$JM.144758@newsfe16.ams2>, News Reader wrote:
>>> Based on real world experience with these... I am sure you and probably
>>> others you know, but certainly plenty of people / others generally, will 
>>> be
>>> able to advise and report on deterioration of these items. If a factory
>>> grade pressed disc can begin to significantly deteriorate within these
>>> timeframes then one can be relatively sure / certain that that more
>>> susceptible recordable variants will have a markedly shorter life.
>>
>> I don't think that necessarily follows. Wouldn't the longevity of a 
>> recording
>> depend on the materials it is made from, rather than the method used to 
>> make
>> the recording? Whether it is factory pressed or laser etched ought not to 
>> make
>> a Difference.
>>
>
>
> Hi,
>
>
> I believe or understand the essentially thinking here is that the record 
> your own At Home discs use typically organic dyes / substrates (substrate 
> layers? - or something like that), and this are much more susceptible and 
> less stable. Equally the recording equipment and overall total production 
> environment is far less when a basic home produced version than a factory 
> grade pressed output. I.e. typically, industrial grade production far 
> outperforms home grade production. Perhaps the one or only real or true 
> exception is excellent craft production in low volume (?).
>
>


From the point of view of audio what would the lifespan of a vinyl recording 
would be? I still have a few knocking around that don't appear to be in the 
slightest bit different condition to what they originally were 40 years ago, 
also a while back I read that there was actually a laser player available 
for playing vinyl records.

I wonder if it would also be technically feasible to record digital data 
onto vinyl, just as can be done with plastic magnetic tape?


>

Shame you didn't have a Mac to use - I've got PCs and Macs. EyeTV Plus 
250 is ideal for this and I use it to receive DVB-T and also to copy VHS 
tapes to MPEGs exactly as you're proposing. For anyone's interest:

http://www.elgato.com

- Basil