That can be read by joe public which explains what  the  problems are going 
to be.

I'd ideally like to be able to hand out a leaflet that..
Explains the differences between freeview, Free sat and Sky Freesat.
Explains why some existing boxes might stop working  as time goes by.
Explain about hd and the differences , ie why the boxes for that are more 
expensive and why they cannot get hd in normal d, on a normal box.

Explains if the boxes they are giving away on switchover for Freeview will 
in fact still work when they decide to use the new encoding. I bloody well 
hope they do!

I bet there is no one place for all this in a layman's language because the 
truth is going to show what a shambles the switchover is becoming.

Brian

-- 
Brian Gaff - briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
Note:- In order to reduce spam, any email without 'Brian Gaff'
in the display name may be lost.
Blind user, so no pictures please!

"Brian Gaff"  wrote in message 
news:jJZmk.39454$E41.34144@text.news.virginmedia.com...
> That can be read by joe public which explains what  the  problems are 
> going to be.
>
> I'd ideally like to be able to hand out a leaflet that..
> Explains the differences between freeview, Free sat and Sky Freesat.
> Explains why some existing boxes might stop working  as time goes by.
> Explain about hd and the differences , ie why the boxes for that are more 
> expensive and why they cannot get hd in normal d, on a normal box.
>
> Explains if the boxes they are giving away on switchover for Freeview will 
> in fact still work when they decide to use the new encoding. I bloody well 
> hope they do!
>
> I bet there is no one place for all this in a layman's language because 
> the truth is going to show what a shambles the switchover is becoming.
>
> Brian
>
> -- 
> Brian Gaff - briang1@blueyonder.co.uk

It isn't the switchover that is a shambles - it's conmen who try and trick 
people
in to buying "high gain digital aerials" that need shooting.   After that 
the shop
sales people should give the "let's lie to get a sale" a rest and explain 
what the
difference in products is.  Anyone not already understanding should do some
research.  If someone in the industry can't explain to customers clearly 
then they
should think about how much they really know and make the effort.
Why is it anyone elses fault if you need to have something explained time 
after
time.

I've tried to do something like that for the occasional family member,
friend, or neighbour that has asked:
	http://tinyurl.com/5mu6re
... standing in for ...
http://www.cemh.eclipse.co.uk/JavaJive/AudioVisualTV/TVInTheUK/FrameTVInTheUK.html

It's a long way from being a leaflet, I think the subject is too
complex for that, and it's a long way from being perfect, for one
thing it's probably too technical, so feel free to criticise
constructively and/or make suggestions.

On Fri, 08 Aug 2008 15:35:43 GMT, "Brian Gaff"
 wrote:

> That can be read by joe public which explains what  the  problems are going 
> to be.
> 
> I'd ideally like to be able to hand out a leaflet that..
> Explains the differences between freeview, Free sat and Sky Freesat.
> Explains why some existing boxes might stop working  as time goes by.
> Explain about hd and the differences , ie why the boxes for that are more 
> expensive and why they cannot get hd in normal d, on a normal box.
> 
> Explains if the boxes they are giving away on switchover for Freeview will 
> in fact still work when they decide to use the new encoding. I bloody well 
> hope they do!

"JD"  wrote in message
news:g7i1k3$fi7$1@news.albasani.net...
>
> "Brian Gaff"  wrote in message
> news:jJZmk.39454$E41.34144@text.news.virginmedia.com...
>> That can be read by joe public which explains what  the  problems are
>> going to be.

> It isn't the switchover that is a shambles - it's conmen who try and trick
> people in to buying "high gain digital aerials" that need shooting.

I wanted an aerial that could pick up freeview from Crystal Palace (from 50
miles). The guy insisted on I needed a new £200 aerial with dozens of
elements (even though most aerials in the street pointing that way were
quite ordinary).

I pointed out my current aerial, designed for the local transmitter which 
didn't have freeview, still managed to pick up 6 freeview stations from 
Crystal Palace even though the polarity (and band?) was wrong, and was 
pointing 40 degrees the wrong way!

He just got back in his van and drove off.

-- 
Bartc

"Bartc"  wrote in message 
news:sr4nk.39653$E41.6741@text.news.virginmedia.com...
> didn't have freeview, still managed to pick up 6 freeview stations from 
> Crystal Palace even though the polarity (and band?) was wrong, and was 
> pointing 40 degrees the wrong way!
>
> He just got back in his van and drove off.

That's what they do when they realise the customer is too clued up to be 
conned. To get these people to work for you you have to pass a sort of 
inverted intelligence test.

Bill

Well, I'm coming at this as a charity dealing with vulnerable people. If the 
trade is being knowledgeable when dealing with the  public, its not evident 
in the people I've spoken to, many of them pretty sharp cookies though 
without web access as being blind or partially sighted tends to make them 
cut out of the loop. We can record any info in audio, and supply it, but so 
far the only info seems to be generated by those who are busy grinding their 
own axes.

Brian

-- 
Brian Gaff....Note, this account does not accept Bcc: email.
 graphics are great, but the blind can't hear them
Email: briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________


"JD"  wrote in message 
news:g7i1k3$fi7$1@news.albasani.net...
>
> "Brian Gaff"  wrote in message 
> news:jJZmk.39454$E41.34144@text.news.virginmedia.com...
>> That can be read by joe public which explains what  the  problems are 
>> going to be.
>>
>> I'd ideally like to be able to hand out a leaflet that..
>> Explains the differences between freeview, Free sat and Sky Freesat.
>> Explains why some existing boxes might stop working  as time goes by.
>> Explain about hd and the differences , ie why the boxes for that are more 
>> expensive and why they cannot get hd in normal d, on a normal box.
>>
>> Explains if the boxes they are giving away on switchover for Freeview 
>> will in fact still work when they decide to use the new encoding. I 
>> bloody well hope they do!
>>
>> I bet there is no one place for all this in a layman's language because 
>> the truth is going to show what a shambles the switchover is becoming.
>>
>> Brian
>>
>> -- 
>> Brian Gaff - briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
>
> It isn't the switchover that is a shambles - it's conmen who try and trick 
> people
> in to buying "high gain digital aerials" that need shooting.   After that 
> the shop
> sales people should give the "let's lie to get a sale" a rest and explain 
> what the
> difference in products is.  Anyone not already understanding should do 
> some
> research.  If someone in the industry can't explain to customers clearly 
> then they
> should think about how much they really know and make the effort.
> Why is it anyone elses fault if you need to have something explained time 
> after
> time.
>

On 8 Aug, 16:35, "Brian Gaff"  wrote:
> That can be read by joe public which explains what  the  problems are going
> to be.

None, _if_ your aerial works, your TV has a SCART socket, and you can
operate yet another(!) remote control.

Just wait until digital switch over starts in your area (BBC Two will
go off-air, and a caption will appear on the other channels). Then get
a Freeview STB (either a <£20 cheapie, or a nice one with recording
facilities built in for <£100) and a "fully wired" SCART cable (more
than £2 is a rip off).

Connect it like this:
1. Plug STB into power socket
2. Remove TV aerial from TV and plug into STB
3. Connect SCART cable between STB and TV.

Select "AV" on the TV, read the STB instruction manual for how to
autotune it (it might do it automatically when you switch it on), and
you should get BBC Two via the STB (as well as BBC One and BBC Three -
change between them with the STB remote). You might not need to select
"AV" on your TV - many TVs will switch to the STB when you switch the
STB on, and back to "normal" TV when you switch the STB off.

If this all works, simply wait a month until the other channels
disappear from your "normal" TV, and then auto-tune the STB again - it
should find the remaining channels.

If the STB doesn't give you BBC One, Two and Three initially, or
doesn't give you the other channels one month later, then either
you've installed it wrong, or your aerial isn't good enough. Seek
Help.

Beware though - most people's aerials will be good enough; _most_
people trying to sell you a new one now are hoping to grab your money
_before_ you find out that what you have already is fine.


If you want to make your existing VCR, DVD-recorder etc _record_ from
Freeview, it's a bit more complicated - sometimes more hassle than
it's worth, sometimes just an extra cable is needed - it depends what
you have and what you want to do.

If you get two different TV regions at the moment (maybe you have two
TV aerials pointing different ways?), some STBs will get confused with
this, or present the two sets of channels in a confusing way. Some are
fine though.


> I'd ideally like to be able to hand out a leaflet that..
> Explains the differences between freeview, Free sat and Sky Freesat.
Freeview = through an aerial
Freesat = through a dish (currently missing some channels you might
expect to be there)
Sky Freesat = through a dish and Sky hope to sell you a subscription
later (no requirement to do so though)
Slightly different channels on each.

> Explains why some existing boxes might stop working  as time goes by.
This is really overstated on the internet. They're £20 and made in
China. Most will break before they become obsolete.

> Explain about hd and the differences , ie why the boxes for that are more
> expensive and why they cannot get hd in normal d, on a normal box.
Next big thing - better picture quality - lots more detail - larger
pictures without looking blurry / blocky. Subscription-free options
are limited - it's probably not the time to jump to this yet if you
don't even have Freeview yet. Many people think HD will make SD
obsolete eventually, just like Colour did Black and White - but it'll
take a while.
"HD Ready" TVs (which most are now) are ready to have an HD STB
connected - without a suitable HD STB, they won't receive HD on their
own. This is changing though - Panasonic make one that has Freesat HD
built in, but this is the very first.

> Explains if the boxes they are giving away on switchover for Freeview will
> in fact still work when they decide to use the new encoding. I bloody well
> hope they do!
Don't read rumour as fact. The current SD boxes will work with SD
broadcasts for years. Nothing yet available will work with "Freeview
HD" or whatever it gets called, if/when it launches along side (_not_
replaces) Freeview. The basic channels will stay on the current system
for a _very_ long time, whatever gets invented.


> I bet there is no one place for all this in a layman's language because the
> truth is going to show what a shambles the switchover is becoming.

I think it'll be mostly fine, but this will be no thanks to the
government. As you say, it will be vulnerable people, with little
access to information - and most importantly, those without friends or
family who can help them - that will struggle to understand it all,
and find it difficult to get what they need (and _only_ what they
need) without being conned.

The free STBs (if that's just what they are - the cheapest STBs given
out for free to the "vulnerable") could be a bit of silly non-help for
many.

For example, some Technophobes will want an IDTV - which will then
work in exactly the same way as their old TV - in fact, if they never
go beyond button four (or five) they might not even notice the change.
Whereas some people who do a lot of recording will want to get a
recording device with Freeview built in, and watch _everything_
through this. Neither group is going to find much use for a cheap STB.

Hope this helps a bit.

Cheers,
David.
P.S. I hope Which? magazine are going to cover all this properly, if
they haven't already.

In article 
,
 "davidrobinson@postmaster.co.uk"  
 wrote:

> If the STB doesn't give you BBC One, Two and Three initially, or
> doesn't give you the other channels one month later, then either
> you've installed it wrong, or your aerial isn't good enough. Seek
> Help.
> 
> Beware though - most people's aerials will be good enough; _most_
> people trying to sell you a new one now are hoping to grab your money
> _before_ you find out that what you have already is fine.

Just out of interest, will the transmitter power for the digital 
channels be increased when BBC2 analogue is switched off or when the 
other analogue channels are?

Chris Leuty wrote:

> Just out of interest, will the transmitter power for the digital 
> channels be increased when BBC2 analogue is switched off or when the 
> other analogue channels are?

Present plan:-

When BBC 2 analogue is switched off, it will be replaced with a high power 
64QAM mux called PSB 1. This will broadly be the same as the present Mux 1, 
i.e BBC 1, BBC 2, BBC 3, BBC News.

After two weeks [1], the other three or four analogue transmissions will 
cease, and these will be replaced with high power muxes called PSB 2 and 3. 
These muxes will carry between them remaining BBC services, ITV channels, C4 
channels, C5, and in the relevant countries, S4C and the Scottish Gaelic 
channel. Also from 2009 PSB 3 will be in the new DVB-T2 standard, and carry HD 
services (Ofcom hope). At the existing 80 DTT sites, there will also be three 
high power muxes carrying broadly the stuff that's on Mux A,C, and D now.  The 
other 1000ish sites will only carry PSB1/2/3.

[1] This period was 4 weeks, and was so at Whitehaven. However it was thought 
that this was too long, so the next phase of DSOs will have a 2 week gap 
between BBC 2 going, and the remainder.

-- 
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.

On 11 Aug, 22:01, Mark Carver <mark.car...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> Chris Leuty wrote:
> > Just out of interest, will the transmitter power for the digital
> > channels be increased when BBC2 analogue is switched off or when the
> > other analogue channels are?
>
> Present plan:-
>
> When BBC 2 analogue is switched off, it will be replaced with a high power
> 64QAM mux called PSB 1. This will broadly be the same as the present Mux 1,
> i.e BBC 1, BBC 2, BBC 3, BBC News.
>
> After two weeks [1], the other three or four analogue transmissions will
> cease, and these will be replaced with high power muxes called PSB 2 and 3.
> These muxes will carry between them remaining BBC services, ITV channels, C4
> channels, C5, and in the relevant countries, S4C and the Scottish Gaelic
> channel. Also from 2009 PSB 3 will be in the new DVB-T2 standard, and carry HD
> services (Ofcom hope). At the existing 80 DTT sites, there will also be three
> high power muxes carrying broadly the stuff that's on Mux A,C, and D now.  The
> other 1000ish sites will only carry PSB1/2/3.
>
> [1] This period was 4 weeks, and was so at Whitehaven. However it was thought
> that this was too long, so the next phase of DSOs will have a 2 week gap
> between BBC 2 going, and the remainder.

As Mark has hinted here, at switch over, on transmitters that already
carry digital, it won't be the existing digital signals that are
"boosted" - there will be new digital transmissions on different
frequencies (i.e. the ones vacated by analogue), without the annoying
power and direction restrictions imposed on the current digital
broadcasts. If you can get analogue OK now, you'll be able to get PSB
digital OK then. The COM muxes are a different matter - the situation
varies from transmitter to transmitter - they've tried to make them
work with existing ("analogue") aerials, but this won't work out for
all transmitters/people. Even if you didn't get any of them, you
wouldn't "lose" anything compared to analogue though - you just won't
gain as many new channels as people who get all digital muxes.

Cheers,
David.

In article 
,
 "davidrobinson@postmaster.co.uk"  
 wrote:

> On 11 Aug, 22:01, Mark Carver <mark.car...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> > When BBC 2 analogue is switched off, it will be replaced with a high power
> > 64QAM mux called PSB 1. This will broadly be the same as the present Mux 1,
> > i.e BBC 1, BBC 2, BBC 3, BBC News.

> As Mark has hinted here, at switch over, on transmitters that already
> carry digital, it won't be the existing digital signals that are
> "boosted" - there will be new digital transmissions on different
> frequencies (i.e. the ones vacated by analogue), without the annoying
> power and direction restrictions imposed on the current digital
> broadcasts.

Does this mean that when BBC2 analogue closes and is replaced by PSB1, 
the current digital Mux 1 - which as Mark indicates is broadly the same 
as PSB1 - will continue for another 2 weeks until the other analogue 
channels close and the remaining PSB (& COM where available) muxes start 
on their new frequencies at the higher power?

Chris Leuty wrote:

> Does this mean that when BBC2 analogue closes and is replaced by PSB1, 
> the current digital Mux 1 - which as Mark indicates is broadly the same 
> as PSB1 - will continue for another 2 weeks until the other analogue 
> channels close and the remaining PSB (& COM where available) muxes start 
> on their new frequencies at the higher power?

No, the existing low power Mux 1 will cease at the same time as BBC 2 
analogue. The remaining lower power muxes will cease two weeks later at the 
same time as BBC1/ITV/4/5 analogue.

-- 
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.

On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 07:19:39 +0100, Mark Carver wrote:

> No, the existing low power Mux 1 will cease at the same time as BBC 2
> analogue. The remaining lower power muxes will cease two weeks later at
> the same time as BBC1/ITV/4/5 analogue.

So Multiplex 1 will be replaced with PSB-1 which will contain more 
stations than Multiplex 1 since it will be 64 QAM and have some
of the stations from Multiplex 2?

Since COM-2 and COM-3 replacing Multiplexes C and D will also be 64 QAM, 
will they have new stations not currently available?

Does this not mean that during DSO, the multiplex operators will have to
distribute 4 additional streams, because some areas will be getting PSB-1,
COM-2, and COM-3 which will have more content than Multiplexes 1, C, and D
which will still be required for those areas awaiting DSO?

Is it correct that clearing of Multiplex B will only start with DSO in
Granadaland, and will the other regions already digital only, then have
to undergo another change to their multiplex arrangements?

As you can appreciate, it seems very confusing as to how things will 
proceed.

J G Miller wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 07:19:39 +0100, Mark Carver wrote:
> 
>> No, the existing low power Mux 1 will cease at the same time as BBC 2
>> analogue. The remaining lower power muxes will cease two weeks later at
>> the same time as BBC1/ITV/4/5 analogue.
> 
> So Multiplex 1 will be replaced with PSB-1 which will contain more 
> stations than Multiplex 1 since it will be 64 QAM and have some
> of the stations from Multiplex 2?

Last time I looked at Ofcom's current thinking, that seemed to be the 
plan. Because PSB 3 will now carry HD services, and also C5 has to be 
accommodated on a PSB mux post DSO, it seems likely that the BBC, ITV, 4 
and 5 will have to all jointly share PSB 1 and 2 ?

> Since COM-2 and COM-3 replacing Multiplexes C and D will also be 64 QAM, 
> will they have new stations not currently available?

I don't know

> Does this not mean that during DSO, the multiplex operators will have to
> distribute 4 additional streams, because some areas will be getting PSB-1,
> COM-2, and COM-3 which will have more content than Multiplexes 1, C, and D
> which will still be required for those areas awaiting DSO?

Yes, I presume so.

> Is it correct that clearing of Multiplex B will only start with DSO in
> Granadaland, and will the other regions already digital only, then have
> to undergo another change to their multiplex arrangements?

Yes, that's what I heard an Ofcom man say last month.

> As you can appreciate, it seems very confusing as to how things will 
> proceed.

Indeed !

On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 14:43:06 +0100, Mark Carver wrote: 
> Last time I looked at Ofcom's current thinking, that seemed to be the
> plan. Because PSB 3 will now carry HD services, and also C5 has to be
> accommodated on a PSB mux post DSO, it seems likely that the BBC, ITV, 4
> and 5 will have to all jointly share PSB 1 and 2 ?

Now I got the impression that even though PSB-1 and PSB-2 will have extra
capacity because of the switch from 16QAM to 64QAM, not everything from
the current Multiplex 1 + 2 + five + national language services will fit
on to PSB-1 and PSB-2.

Therefore, this surely means that for viewers on local relays who have
been switched from analog to the PSB multiplexes, that not only will they
only receive half a freeview, they will then lose some stations with the
advent of DVB-t2 on PSB-3, since it is not very probable that having
just forked out money for an DVB-t MPEG-2 decoder box a mere 6-12 months
prior, that they will then rush out for a new shiny DVB-t2 MPEG-4 decoder 
box.

Are not the local relay viewers in Border and South West being given
very poor treatment in this matter? 

> I don't know
If NGW is having to pay for extra bandwidth to distribute the two sets
of its commercial multiplexes, it seems probable that they will not want
to distribute two partly empty 64QAM multiplexes from which they could be
earning more money.

> Yes, that's what I heard an Ofcom man say last month.

So viewers in Border and South West will undergo three changes

1) initial conversion to digital (cost of new equipment for those on 
local relays)
2) clearing of multiplex 3  (loss of some stations)
3) change from 2k to 8k  (yes only minor but still another change)

I emphasize that the people who are affected most are those on the local
relays which do not yet transmit digital.  And usually people served in
these areas are likely to be less affluent than those in the major cities
served by transmitters already providing a digital service.

On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 18:21:35 +0200, J G Miller 
wrote:

>On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 14:43:06 +0100, Mark Carver wrote: 
>> Last time I looked at Ofcom's current thinking, that seemed to be the
>> plan. Because PSB 3 will now carry HD services, and also C5 has to be
>> accommodated on a PSB mux post DSO, it seems likely that the BBC, ITV, 4
>> and 5 will have to all jointly share PSB 1 and 2 ?
>
>Now I got the impression that even though PSB-1 and PSB-2 will have extra
>capacity because of the switch from 16QAM to 64QAM, not everything from
>the current Multiplex 1 + 2 + five + national language services will fit
>on to PSB-1 and PSB-2.
>
>Therefore, this surely means that for viewers on local relays who have
>been switched from analog to the PSB multiplexes, that not only will they
>only receive half a freeview, they will then lose some stations with the
>advent of DVB-t2 on PSB-3, since it is not very probable that having
>just forked out money for an DVB-t MPEG-2 decoder box a mere 6-12 months
>prior, that they will then rush out for a new shiny DVB-t2 MPEG-4 decoder 
>box.
>
>Are not the local relay viewers in Border and South West being given
>very poor treatment in this matter? 
>
>> I don't know
>If NGW is having to pay for extra bandwidth to distribute the two sets
>of its commercial multiplexes, it seems probable that they will not want
>to distribute two partly empty 64QAM multiplexes from which they could be
>earning more money.
>
>> Yes, that's what I heard an Ofcom man say last month.
>
>So viewers in Border and South West will undergo three changes
>
>1) initial conversion to digital (cost of new equipment for those on 
>local relays)
>2) clearing of multiplex 3  (loss of some stations)
>3) change from 2k to 8k  (yes only minor but still another change)
>
>I emphasize that the people who are affected most are those on the local
>relays which do not yet transmit digital.  And usually people served in
>these areas are likely to be less affluent than those in the major cities
>served by transmitters already providing a digital service.

Onfortunately the "official" response to that is likely to be
"Freesat".

-- 
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.possessive.its.has.no.apostrophe)

J G Miller wrote:
> On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 14:43:06 +0100, Mark Carver wrote: 
>> Last time I looked at Ofcom's current thinking, that seemed to be the
>> plan. Because PSB 3 will now carry HD services, and also C5 has to be
>> accommodated on a PSB mux post DSO, it seems likely that the BBC, ITV, 4
>> and 5 will have to all jointly share PSB 1 and 2 ?
> 
> Now I got the impression that even though PSB-1 and PSB-2 will have extra
> capacity because of the switch from 16QAM to 64QAM, not everything from
> the current Multiplex 1 + 2 + five + national language services will fit
> on to PSB-1 and PSB-2.

I suspect channels such as ITV 3, ITV 4, Film 4, etc might end up on the COM 
muxes, and therefore only available from the present 80 DTT sites (plus 
Fremont Point) ?

[snip]

-- 
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.

On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 18:20:31 +0100, Peter Duncanson
 wrote:

>Onfortunately
Unfortunately

-- 
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.possessive.its.has.no.apostrophe)

"Peter Duncanson"  wrote in message 
news:eja6a4lp5dt5h56ofd7s8rla0hvqboiuqh@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 13 Aug 2008 18:20:31 +0100, Peter Duncanson
>  wrote:
>
>>Onfortunately
> Unfortunately

Will that work on an Undigital box?

-- 
Max Demian