Yesterday I went out to a domestic job -- a rare event these days, but I do 
need the exercise. As it happened the house had a basic distribution system 
installed by me about thirty years ago for some long forgotten previous 
occupier. There must have been a problem with using a mains powered device 
in the loft (in those days some people were afraid of this) because the amp 
was behind the living room telly and it fed a six way splitter in the loft. 
Probably the VCR had been looped though for distribution. Ah, happy days!

The present complaints were (a) I can't record C5 (b) the digital pictures 
in the kitchen stop and start.

I noticed that the aerial cable in the kitchen came though the wall via a 
Sky-type 'I've made a mess of the the wall so this plastic thing hides it' 
device, and that the cable was new, and cheap. It transpired that the lady 
had initially called out a firm which I will call Brown Shite Aerials. The 
young man had extended the cable to the kitchen to allow the re-siting of 
the TV set, as requested, and also 'fiddled about' with the aerial 
connection in the bedroom. Reception in the kitchen and bedroom remaining 
poor, and that in the living room remaining sans analogue C5, he had then 
looked at the aerial, looked in the loft, declared himself baffled, and 
buggered off.

In the living room the VCR was indeed unable to record C5, which was no 
surprise because the aerials comprised a Gp B on Emley and a Gp A on 
Bilsdale, with a 21 to34/39 to 68 diplexer. So, no C5 on ch37 then. In the 
living room the aerial downlead showed obvious signs of 'moisture ingress'. 
All this was put right, yet reception in the bedroom was still terrible. The 
coax plug (a new one) had been assembled in a way that caused a short 
circuit. In the kitchen reception appeared to be OK but the analyser said 
'something wrong'. Outside on the wall I found an electrical joint box with 
the old and new coax connected inside by twisting together and the whole 
thing full of mastic.

OK, now the thing is, this Brown Shite outfit appeared in this area about 
six months ago. A big advertising budget for a one man band, a half decent 
website. As far as the public can tell it's a good reliable firm with an 
experienced man behind it. The van, apparently, is neat and tidy, as is the 
man. But the guy obviously knows absolutely nothing about the job.

Isn't it about time this trade had some sort of mandatory training and 
certification?

Bill

"Bill Wright"  wrote in message 
news:ksqdncg0tMoAQ__VnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@pipex.net...
> Yesterday I went out to a domestic job -- a rare event these days, but I 
> do need the exercise. As it happened the house had a basic distribution 
> system installed by me about thirty years ago for some long forgotten 
> previous occupier. There must have been a problem with using a mains 
> powered device in the loft (in those days some people were afraid of this) 
> because the amp was behind the living room telly and it fed a six way 
> splitter in the loft. Probably the VCR had been looped though for 
> distribution. Ah, happy days!
>
> The present complaints were (a) I can't record C5 (b) the digital pictures 
> in the kitchen stop and start.
>
> I noticed that the aerial cable in the kitchen came though the wall via a 
> Sky-type 'I've made a mess of the the wall so this plastic thing hides it' 
> device, and that the cable was new, and cheap. It transpired that the lady 
> had initially called out a firm which I will call Brown Shite Aerials. The 
> young man had extended the cable to the kitchen to allow the re-siting of 
> the TV set, as requested, and also 'fiddled about' with the aerial 
> connection in the bedroom. Reception in the kitchen and bedroom remaining 
> poor, and that in the living room remaining sans analogue C5, he had then 
> looked at the aerial, looked in the loft, declared himself baffled, and 
> buggered off.
>
> In the living room the VCR was indeed unable to record C5, which was no 
> surprise because the aerials comprised a Gp B on Emley and a Gp A on 
> Bilsdale, with a 21 to34/39 to 68 diplexer. So, no C5 on ch37 then. In the 
> living room the aerial downlead showed obvious signs of 'moisture 
> ingress'. All this was put right, yet reception in the bedroom was still 
> terrible. The coax plug (a new one) had been assembled in a way that 
> caused a short circuit. In the kitchen reception appeared to be OK but the 
> analyser said 'something wrong'. Outside on the wall I found an electrical 
> joint box with the old and new coax connected inside by twisting together 
> and the whole thing full of mastic.
>
> OK, now the thing is, this Brown Shite outfit appeared in this area about 
> six months ago. A big advertising budget for a one man band, a half decent 
> website. As far as the public can tell it's a good reliable firm with an 
> experienced man behind it. The van, apparently, is neat and tidy, as is 
> the man. But the guy obviously knows absolutely nothing about the job.
>
> Isn't it about time this trade had some sort of mandatory training and 
> certification?
>
> Bill
>

It does become rather annoying doesn't it. Round here there are huge 
companies with huge advertising budgets, tidy & well signed vans but the 
guys just seem like they don't have a clue. They all employ the "aerials 
start from £60" tactics and most uninformed customers fall for it and end up 
paying £300 for a Wideband Unix 52 on a bean pole. I've had jobs where 5 
different firms have been called to the same job to see if they could solve 
a problem, and all of them failed.. All that was needed was a masthead 
amplifier, some good aerial positioning and tidying up a few connection 
bodges in the loft.

The amount of phone calls I get where people are just enquiring about cost, 
and when I give it to them straight some people seem shocked that I could 
quote more than £100, when everyone else is "quoting £60". I used to spend a 
few minutes explaining how they've got more chance knitting fog than getting 
an new aerial installed for £60, but I just can't be bothered anymore. 
Although saying that I did get a bit annoyed with one lady who phoned the 
other day. She gasped at my £150 quotation, and when I asked her how much 
she thought it would be, she said around £40 all in. Exasperated, I asked 
her how much she thought the parts would cost me, and she said "perhaps 
about £30"?

So I said do you really expect someone to come out and spend 2 hours labour, 
for £10 before they have taken out any costs. She said "ok well maybe £15 
tops for labour then".

>> Isn't it about time this trade had some sort of mandatory 
>> training and certification?
>>
A reasonable reaction from a reasonable expert who cares 
about his trade/profession/vocation.

But do you remember Part P and all the restrictions on what 
an uncertifictaed person can lawfully do by way of 
electrical work?  Seems to me you wish to start down the 
same slippery slope to:

o    compulsory registration with one or more certificating 
bodies (with costs passed on to the consumer)
o    a ban on DIY work (on the basis that they might kill 
themselves, or fall on a neighbour, or pass to the next 
owner dodgy coax)
o    ever more people who believe that someone else should 
do all the thinking for them (not to mention ever fewer 
opportunities for natural selection) .

I'd much rather the same time and money was spent teaching 
kids that you don't get owt for nowt.  But I suppose it'd be 
water off the backs.


-- 
Robin

On Thu, 26 Jun 2008 01:10:58 +0100, "Bill Wright" 
wrote:
<snip good story>
>Isn't it about time this trade had some sort of mandatory training and 
>certification?

Yes of course - call it something like Korky and get everyone to pay you £1000
per year to be a member. Get the guvmint to put out scary adds about the number
of people dying from poor reception - and don't forget the annual maintenance
agreement...

Geo

"Bill Wright"  wrote in message 
news:ksqdncg0tMoAQ__VnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@pipex.net...
> Yesterday I went out to a domestic job -- a rare event these days, but I 
> do need the exercise. As it happened the house had a basic distribution 
> system installed by me about thirty years ago for some long forgotten 
> previous occupier. There must have been a problem with using a mains 
> powered device in the loft (in those days some people were afraid of this) 
> because the amp was behind the living room telly and it fed a six way 
> splitter in the loft. Probably the VCR had been looped though for 
> distribution. Ah, happy days!
>
> The present complaints were (a) I can't record C5 (b) the digital pictures 
> in the kitchen stop and start.
>
> I noticed that the aerial cable in the kitchen came though the wall via a 
> Sky-type 'I've made a mess of the the wall so this plastic thing hides it' 
> device, and that the cable was new, and cheap. It transpired that the lady 
> had initially called out a firm which I will call Brown Shite Aerials. The 
> young man had extended the cable to the kitchen to allow the re-siting of 
> the TV set, as requested, and also 'fiddled about' with the aerial 
> connection in the bedroom. Reception in the kitchen and bedroom remaining 
> poor, and that in the living room remaining sans analogue C5, he had then 
> looked at the aerial, looked in the loft, declared himself baffled, and 
> buggered off.
>
> In the living room the VCR was indeed unable to record C5, which was no 
> surprise because the aerials comprised a Gp B on Emley and a Gp A on 
> Bilsdale, with a 21 to34/39 to 68 diplexer. So, no C5 on ch37 then. In the 
> living room the aerial downlead showed obvious signs of 'moisture 
> ingress'. All this was put right, yet reception in the bedroom was still 
> terrible. The coax plug (a new one) had been assembled in a way that 
> caused a short circuit. In the kitchen reception appeared to be OK but the 
> analyser said 'something wrong'. Outside on the wall I found an electrical 
> joint box with the old and new coax connected inside by twisting together 
> and the whole thing full of mastic.
>
> OK, now the thing is, this Brown Shite outfit appeared in this area about 
> six months ago. A big advertising budget for a one man band, a half decent 
> website. As far as the public can tell it's a good reliable firm with an 
> experienced man behind it. The van, apparently, is neat and tidy, as is 
> the man. But the guy obviously knows absolutely nothing about the job.
>
> Isn't it about time this trade had some sort of mandatory training and 
> certification?
>
> Bill
>

It's not just your trade that requires some sort of protocols Bill.
We need some sort of local register where the general public can post their 
experiences of tradesmen they have employed.
Finding a reliable trades person who cares for his/her work is getting 
harder and harder.  Times are hard, people are probably going to employ the 
services from the cheapest quote they receive.

Sounds like there is a lack of even basic research into the subject to me. 
It would need a pretty short course for a person to gain the rudimentary of 
the what you can and cannot do, and anyone who cannot even be bothered to 
find these simple things out should be awarded the hat and spurs award, no 
matter how they dress.

Brian

-- 
Brian Gaff....Note, this account does not accept Bcc: email.
 graphics are great, but the blind can't hear them
Email: briang1@blueyonder.co.uk
______________________________________________________________________________________________________________


"Bill Wright"  wrote in message 
news:ksqdncg0tMoAQ__VnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@pipex.net...
> Yesterday I went out to a domestic job -- a rare event these days, but I 
> do need the exercise. As it happened the house had a basic distribution 
> system installed by me about thirty years ago for some long forgotten 
> previous occupier. There must have been a problem with using a mains 
> powered device in the loft (in those days some people were afraid of this) 
> because the amp was behind the living room telly and it fed a six way 
> splitter in the loft. Probably the VCR had been looped though for 
> distribution. Ah, happy days!
>
> The present complaints were (a) I can't record C5 (b) the digital pictures 
> in the kitchen stop and start.
>
> I noticed that the aerial cable in the kitchen came though the wall via a 
> Sky-type 'I've made a mess of the the wall so this plastic thing hides it' 
> device, and that the cable was new, and cheap. It transpired that the lady 
> had initially called out a firm which I will call Brown Shite Aerials. The 
> young man had extended the cable to the kitchen to allow the re-siting of 
> the TV set, as requested, and also 'fiddled about' with the aerial 
> connection in the bedroom. Reception in the kitchen and bedroom remaining 
> poor, and that in the living room remaining sans analogue C5, he had then 
> looked at the aerial, looked in the loft, declared himself baffled, and 
> buggered off.
>
> In the living room the VCR was indeed unable to record C5, which was no 
> surprise because the aerials comprised a Gp B on Emley and a Gp A on 
> Bilsdale, with a 21 to34/39 to 68 diplexer. So, no C5 on ch37 then. In the 
> living room the aerial downlead showed obvious signs of 'moisture 
> ingress'. All this was put right, yet reception in the bedroom was still 
> terrible. The coax plug (a new one) had been assembled in a way that 
> caused a short circuit. In the kitchen reception appeared to be OK but the 
> analyser said 'something wrong'. Outside on the wall I found an electrical 
> joint box with the old and new coax connected inside by twisting together 
> and the whole thing full of mastic.
>
> OK, now the thing is, this Brown Shite outfit appeared in this area about 
> six months ago. A big advertising budget for a one man band, a half decent 
> website. As far as the public can tell it's a good reliable firm with an 
> experienced man behind it. The van, apparently, is neat and tidy, as is 
> the man. But the guy obviously knows absolutely nothing about the job.
>
> Isn't it about time this trade had some sort of mandatory training and 
> certification?
>
> Bill
>

>> Isn't it about time this trade had some sort of mandatory training and 
>> certification?
>>
>> Bill
>>
>
>It's not just your trade that requires some sort of protocols Bill.
>We need some sort of local register where the general public can post their 
>experiences of tradesmen they have employed.
>Finding a reliable trades person who cares for his/her work is getting 
>harder and harder.  Times are hard, people are probably going to employ the 
>services from the cheapest quote they receive. 
>
>
And some register where "tradesmen" can post about the customers they
have who turn out to be total fecking arseholes themselves;!...
-- 
Tony Sayer

Slider wrote:

> It's not just your trade that requires some sort of protocols Bill.
> We need some sort of local register where the general public can post their 
> experiences of tradesmen they have employed.
> Finding a reliable trades person who cares for his/her work is getting 
> harder and harder.  Times are hard, people are probably going to employ the 
> services from the cheapest quote they receive. 
> 
> 

There usually is!   Which? Local for one, and many Local Councils now 
have "Shipshape" (as we in Solihull have) sites.
http://www.solihull.gov.uk/tradingstandards/shipshape.htm
I quote
  " Shipshape is a Trading Standards Scheme for Home Improvement 
Professionals to demonstrate their commitment to fair, professional and 
honest trade.
Advice and support for consumers in Solihull is now provided by Consumer 
Direct.
Consumer Direct is a telephone and online consumer advice service, which 
is supported by local authorities in The West Midlands and by Government. "

They just don't publish them.

Try looking on your local council website?

I also thought the government were due to start one up or is that just a 
load of the usual hot air?

Richard

Slider wrote:

> It's not just your trade that requires some sort of protocols Bill.
> We need some sort of local register where the general public can post their 
> experiences of tradesmen they have employed.

Nice idea, but it won't protect people who are unware of its presence if 
it does get deployed. For instance the BBC Watchdog website is basically 
searchable if you were to think to look at it before hiring the services 
of a company, but then that programme a few years later features hapless 
individuals unfortunately scammed again by the same businesses they 
could have checked out before!

Then there is the problem of slander and competition. Companies would do 
underhand things to rubbish the reputations of competitors, and that 
would certainly include false reviews being placed. Bit like eBay really.

The answer really is enforced government regulation of all services and 
constant bottom* inspection by goverment service busy bodies wandering 
about with cameras and clipboards. Because no business would put up with 
that bureaucracy without going bust, the government would have to 
provide the service. We'd become a bit like China....

* - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Viz_comic_strips

-- 
Adrian C

On 2008-06-26, Slider  wrote:
> It's not just your trade that requires some sort of protocols Bill.
> We need some sort of local register where the general public can post their 
> experiences of tradesmen they have employed.

http://www.checkatrade.com/

Local authorities sometimes have their own equivalents, such as
http://www.buywithconfidence.gov.uk/

Geo wrote:
> "Bill Wright" wrote:
>> Isn't it about time this trade had some sort of mandatory training and 
>> certification?
> Yes of course - call it something like Korky and get everyone to pay you £1000
> per year to be a member. 

Strange that you should say that - there's an outfit (called something 
like Korky) that has just "lost the contract" for gas installer 
registration (it's being given to C(r)apita who, inter alia, already do 
TV licensing ... oh, the irony) and so might be looking around for 
something to do/regulate.

Owain

In message <g3vm1g$88o$1@aioe.org>, Slider  wrote
>
>It's not just your trade that requires some sort of protocols Bill.
>We need some sort of local register where the general public can post their
>experiences of tradesmen they have employed.
>Finding a reliable trades person who cares for his/her work is getting
>harder and harder.  Times are hard, people are probably going to employ the
>services from the cheapest quote they receive.
>
>

If trade associations such as the CAI did there job properly the public 
could trust everything with a CAI logo!

-- 
Alan
news2006 {at} amac {dot} f2s {dot} com

In message , Adrian C 
<email@here.invalid> wrote


>Then there is the problem of slander and competition. Companies would 
>do underhand things to rubbish the reputations of competitors, and that 
>would certainly include false reviews being placed. Bit like eBay really.

Ebay was different. A seller couldn't leave any negative feedback 
without getting negative feedback returned by the seller.  As a result 
there are a lot of rogue traders on Ebay who appear to have a good 
feedback score because those who have a bad service from them no longer 
leave any feedback.

>
>The answer really is enforced government regulation of all services and 
>constant bottom* inspection by goverment service busy bodies wandering 
>about with cameras and clipboards.

What happens then is that the 'inspected' services become very expensive 
which leaves even more opportunity for the cowboys to undercut the 
price.

-- 
Alan
news2006 {at} amac {dot} f2s {dot} com

"Paul Murray"  wrote in message 
news:AeK8k.30525$c47.14249@en-nntp-06.am2.easynews.com...
> On 2008-06-26, Slider  wrote:
>> It's not just your trade that requires some sort of protocols Bill.
>> We need some sort of local register where the general public can post 
>> their
>> experiences of tradesmen they have employed.
>
> http://www.checkatrade.com/
>

This mob look pretty good........

http://www.checkatrade.com/IckenhamAerials

-<GB>-Carpy wrote:
> "Paul Murray"  wrote in message 
> news:AeK8k.30525$c47.14249@en-nntp-06.am2.easynews.com...
>> On 2008-06-26, Slider  wrote:
>>> It's not just your trade that requires some sort of protocols Bill.
>>> We need some sort of local register where the general public can post 
>>> their
>>> experiences of tradesmen they have employed.
>> http://www.checkatrade.com/
>>
> 
> This mob look pretty good........
> 
> http://www.checkatrade.com/IckenhamAerials
> 
> 
> 

Took a look. Have one or two issues with their 'Our Work' pics.

Otherwise, not bad...

Glenn...

"Glenn Millar"  wrote in message 
news:Et-dnVXl3-BzmfnVnZ2dnUVZ8uCdnZ2d@posted.plusnet...
> -<GB>-Carpy wrote:
>> "Paul Murray"  wrote in message 
>> news:AeK8k.30525$c47.14249@en-nntp-06.am2.easynews.com...
>>> On 2008-06-26, Slider  wrote:
>>>> It's not just your trade that requires some sort of protocols Bill.
>>>> We need some sort of local register where the general public can post 
>>>> their
>>>> experiences of tradesmen they have employed.
>>> http://www.checkatrade.com/
>>>
>>
>> This mob look pretty good........
>>
>> http://www.checkatrade.com/IckenhamAerials
>>
>>
>>
>
> Took a look. Have one or two issues with their 'Our Work' pics.
>
> Otherwise, not bad...
>
> Glenn...

Can you elaborate a bit?

"-<GB>-Carpy"  wrote in message 
news:UbS8k.16365$E41.13097@text.news.virginmedia.com...
>> http://www.checkatrade.com/
>>
>
> This mob look pretty good........
>
> http://www.checkatrade.com/IckenhamAerials

I'm proud of you.

Bill

On 26/06/2008 23:07, -<GB>-Carpy wrote:

> Can you elaborate a bit? 

I've fitted one of the sat-strap brackets myself (largely because it 
looked harder to get wrong and cost wasn't an issue as a one-off) I 
found it very easy and secure, but I think I'd worry about what heat 
expansion would do to tension in upteen yards of strap.

http://www.ickenhamaerials.co.uk/DSCF1863.JPG

"-<GB>-Carpy"  wrote in message 
news:UbS8k.16365$E41.13097@text.news.virginmedia.com...
>
> "Paul Murray"  wrote in message 
> news:AeK8k.30525$c47.14249@en-nntp-06.am2.easynews.com...
>> On 2008-06-26, Slider  wrote:
>>> It's not just your trade that requires some sort of protocols Bill.
>>> We need some sort of local register where the general public can post 
>>> their
>>> experiences of tradesmen they have employed.
>>
>> http://www.checkatrade.com/
>>
>
> This mob look pretty good........
>
> http://www.checkatrade.com/IckenhamAerials

Blimey David, are you only fitting "digital aerials" these days? :-)

-<GB>-Carpy wrote:
> "Glenn Millar"  wrote in message 
> news:Et-dnVXl3-BzmfnVnZ2dnUVZ8uCdnZ2d@posted.plusnet...
>> -<GB>-Carpy wrote:
>>> "Paul Murray"  wrote in message 
>>> news:AeK8k.30525$c47.14249@en-nntp-06.am2.easynews.com...
>>>> On 2008-06-26, Slider  wrote:
>>>>> It's not just your trade that requires some sort of protocols Bill.
>>>>> We need some sort of local register where the general public can post 
>>>>> their
>>>>> experiences of tradesmen they have employed.
>>>> http://www.checkatrade.com/
>>>>
>>> This mob look pretty good........
>>>
>>> http://www.checkatrade.com/IckenhamAerials
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> Took a look. Have one or two issues with their 'Our Work' pics.
>>
>> Otherwise, not bad...
>>
>> Glenn...
> 
> Can you elaborate a bit? 
> 
> 

Far from the best way to terminate a wire lashing of the J bolt, QR10/18 
aerials should always have the dipole lid taped or cable tie to keep the 
lid closed, they often pop off.

On the Headend board, you should not clip electrical cable with steel 
staples. Also looks as if the input of the filter isn't going to be 
earth bonded. And will that aerial on the flatroof get bonded to the LPS 
that is present on the building.

Of course that is nitpicking and the job is not complete but it would be 
nice to see the pics of the completed job in order to be assured of a 
quality and complete installation...

A clear lack of PPE and fall arrest while working near an unguarded roof 
edge, and from the photo, is 3 stories or more, who did his risk assessment?

And I don't like to see the 'I did that job' marking of aerial rigs with 
coloured tape.

Glenn...

In article <1oudndW1GqmJFfnVRVnyggA@posted.plusnet>, Andy Burns
 scribeth thus
>On 26/06/2008 23:07, -<GB>-Carpy wrote:
>
>> Can you elaborate a bit? 
>
>I've fitted one of the sat-strap brackets myself (largely because it 
>looked harder to get wrong and cost wasn't an issue as a one-off) I 
>found it very easy and secure, but I think I'd worry about what heat 
>expansion would do to tension in upteen yards of strap.
>
>http://www.ickenhamaerials.co.uk/DSCF1863.JPG
>

Nice tape colour scheme;....
-- 
Tony Sayer

Glenn Millar wrote:

> On the Headend board, you should not clip electrical cable with steel 
> staples.

Not good practice, but since it's done to the protective bonding 
conductors and not to any live conductors or cables, and since the 
conductors don't appear to be damaged, I don't really see any great 
problem.  Just use proper cable clips next time :-)

However the bonding here is non-compliant for two reasons.  Firstly 
green/yellow wire *must* be used; the plain green is completely 
unacceptable - it doesn't comply with BS EN 60728-11 or with BS 7671. 
Secondly the whole point of bonding around an assembly like this is to 
allow the individual items of equipment (filter, amplifier & splitters 
in this case) to be replaced without disturbing the the integrity of the 
  system's bonding.  Therefore looping the bonding conductors around the 
items in a long daisy chain isn't acceptable.  Generally it's better to 
mount a 6 or 8-way 'earth block' on the board and star-wire to each item 
of equipment.  The block also makes a convenient point to connect the 
incoming bonding conductor.

> Also looks as if the input of the filter isn't going to be 
> earth bonded.

Grrr - there's no such thing as earth bonding.  Earthing and 
equipotential bonding are distinct and separate concepts - ask any 
properly trained electrician.

And, yes, the incoming antenna feed to the filter needs bonding. 
Conveniently there is a spare way available on the upper bonding bar.

> And will that aerial on the flatroof get bonded to the LPS 
> that is present on the building.

I believe that's now for the designers of the LPS to specify and carry 
out if it's necessary (which is probably is).

-- 
Andy

"Andy Burns"  wrote in message 
news:1oudndW1GqmJFfnVRVnyggA@posted.plusnet...
> On 26/06/2008 23:07, -<GB>-Carpy wrote:
>
>> Can you elaborate a bit?
>
> I've fitted one of the sat-strap brackets myself (largely because it 
> looked harder to get wrong and cost wasn't an issue as a one-off) I found 
> it very easy and secure, but I think I'd worry about what heat expansion 
> would do to tension in upteen yards of strap.
>
Compared to a mild steel wire?

Bill

On 27/06/2008 15:17, Bill Wright wrote:

> "Andy Burns" wrote: 
>
> > I'd worry about what heat expansion would do to tension in upteen 
yards of strap.
>>
> Compared to a mild steel wire?

What about a bracket extending over more bricks with anchor bolts? would 
you really fit a lashing wire that long? (even though we can't see from 
the photo how long *that* is).

"Glenn Millar"  wrote in message 
news:fJWdnaRJdZuVBPnVnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@posted.plusnet...
> -<GB>-Carpy wrote:
>> "Glenn Millar"  wrote in message 
>> news:Et-dnVXl3-BzmfnVnZ2dnUVZ8uCdnZ2d@posted.plusnet...
>>> -<GB>-Carpy wrote:
>>>> "Paul Murray"  wrote in message 
>>>> news:AeK8k.30525$c47.14249@en-nntp-06.am2.easynews.com...
>>>>> On 2008-06-26, Slider  wrote:
>>>>>> It's not just your trade that requires some sort of protocols Bill.
>>>>>> We need some sort of local register where the general public can post 
>>>>>> their
>>>>>> experiences of tradesmen they have employed.
>>>>> http://www.checkatrade.com/
>>>>>
>>>> This mob look pretty good........
>>>>
>>>> http://www.checkatrade.com/IckenhamAerials
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> Took a look. Have one or two issues with their 'Our Work' pics.
>>>
>>> Otherwise, not bad...
>>>
>>> Glenn...
>>
>> Can you elaborate a bit?
>
> Far from the best way to terminate a wire lashing of the J bolt,

What's the best way?

>QR10/18 aerials should always have the dipole lid taped or cable tie to 
>keep the lid closed, they often pop off.

Interesting. I've experimented with these Wolsey QR aerials on and off over 
a period of about 6 years and never come across this problem. The lids close 
with a loud and reassuring snap and are a real pain to get open again once 
closed properly.

> On the Headend board, you should not clip electrical cable with steel 
> staples.

I kind of knew this photo would get picked full of holes. This was one of 
the first "headends" I constructed and mighty proud of it I was at the time. 
I hadn't considered the issue of metal staples. I can't really see it's a 
problem though as the staples don't penetrate far enough to hold down / 
crush the earth cable as they are meant for 7mm cable, although maybe best 
practice to avoid this. Perhaps No More Nails would be a better way eh 
Marky!

Andy W -  Yes the green earthing cable should be yellow & green, but the 
redundancy of the bonding isn't as bad as you're making out. Yes we do use 
earth blocks these days as it's easier and neater and maintains 100% 
redundancy but at the time I believed the amplifier or filter would be the 
only components liable to be taken out for replacement / repair, and with 
that in mind, the rest of the system would still be bonded if these were 
gone. The PME was connected to the bottom right bonding bar over on the RHS.

> And will that aerial on the flatroof get bonded to the LPS that is present 
> on the building.

That's the responsibility of the LPS company appointed by the client.

> the job is not complete but it would be nice to see the pics of the 
> completed job in order to be assured of a quality and complete 
> installation...

Fair comment. I've not updated the site at all for over 2.5 years but have a 
barrage of new photos to go up, many of which are completed systems.

> A clear lack of PPE and fall arrest while working near an unguarded roof 
> edge, and from the photo, is 3 stories or more, who did his risk 
> assessment?

Now your being a bit silly. You can't make a comment like that without more 
information. The "edge" you are referring to peers over to another large 
flat roof only a few feet down. More risk getting tangled in the fall arrest 
system and throttling yourself than being hurt by falling over the edge.

> And I don't like to see the 'I did that job' marking of aerial rigs with 
> coloured tape.

Indeed. I went through a phase of taping the cables like this, but after 
about 20 jobs I realised it was a pain in the backside and you couldn't even 
make out the colours from street level. Gave up on it after that. The idea 
was to easily identify my work but in reality I can remember all my jobs 
anyway as I revisit different areas. I'm always looking up to see how they 
are getting on.

> Of course that is nitpicking

Well no I certainly don't mind. I'm a member of this group to further my 
knowledge just like most others, so any positive criticism is welcome. I 
worked under a guy for years and he taught me plenty of stuff, but I now 
know he was and still is a total cowboy. At the time I hadn't a clue that 
the things he did routinely were dodgy as hell, so it's been a real eye 
opener coming across people like Bill several years back and having to 
re-educate myself in many areas. This group is a great place and it's from 
threads like that most of us will take away another little bit of knowledge 
we didn't have before.

Andy B - Believe me this type of strap has considerably less stretch than 
the traditional steel lashing wire, which is why I used it. Larger bracket 
and bolts would have been nowhere near as good IMO.

Doctor D - Haha yes indeed. You can see from the comments that these new 
digital aerials were replacing broken aerials, not working analogue ones!!

Bill - Thanks as always.

>> And will that aerial on the flatroof get bonded to the LPS 
>> that is present on the building.
>
>I believe that's now for the designers of the LPS to specify and carry 
>out if it's necessary (which is probably is).
>
Which they won't unless they get to inspect it from time to time. We see
this in installations on churches and the like...
-- 
Tony Sayer

"tony sayer"  wrote in message 
news:cP3E9GKCCTZIFwgA@bancom.co.uk...
>>> And will that aerial on the flatroof get bonded to the LPS
>>> that is present on the building.
>>
>>I believe that's now for the designers of the LPS to specify and carry
>>out if it's necessary (which is probably is).
>>
> Which they won't unless they get to inspect it from time to time. We see
> this in installations on churches and the like...
> -- 
> Tony Sayer
>
>

We always include a paragraph on our invoices / quotes informing the client 
it must be connected to the buildings LPS if it has one, by their LPS 
contractor.

On Fri, 27 Jun 2008 18:35:02 +0100, "Carpy" 
wrote:

>
>"Glenn Millar"  wrote in message 
>news:fJWdnaRJdZuVBPnVnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@posted.plusnet...
>> -<GB>-Carpy wrote:
>>> "Glenn Millar"  wrote in message 
>>> news:Et-dnVXl3-BzmfnVnZ2dnUVZ8uCdnZ2d@posted.plusnet...
>>>> -<GB>-Carpy wrote:
>>>>> "Paul Murray"  wrote in message 
>>>>> news:AeK8k.30525$c47.14249@en-nntp-06.am2.easynews.com...
>>>>>> On 2008-06-26, Slider  wrote:
>>>>>>> It's not just your trade that requires some sort of protocols Bill.
>>>>>>> We need some sort of local register where the general public can post 
>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>> experiences of tradesmen they have employed.
>>>>>> http://www.checkatrade.com/
>>>>>>
>>>>> This mob look pretty good........
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.checkatrade.com/IckenhamAerials
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Took a look. Have one or two issues with their 'Our Work' pics.
>>>>
>>>> Otherwise, not bad...
>>>>
>>>> Glenn...
>>>
>>> Can you elaborate a bit?
>>
>> Far from the best way to terminate a wire lashing of the J bolt,
>
>What's the best way?
>
>>QR10/18 aerials should always have the dipole lid taped or cable tie to 
>>keep the lid closed, they often pop off.
>
>Interesting. I've experimented with these Wolsey QR aerials on and off over 
>a period of about 6 years and never come across this problem. The lids close 
>with a loud and reassuring snap and are a real pain to get open again once 
>closed properly.
>
>> On the Headend board, you should not clip electrical cable with steel 
>> staples.
>
>I kind of knew this photo would get picked full of holes. This was one of 
>the first "headends" I constructed and mighty proud of it I was at the time. 
>I hadn't considered the issue of metal staples. I can't really see it's a 
>problem though as the staples don't penetrate far enough to hold down / 
>crush the earth cable as they are meant for 7mm cable, although maybe best 
>practice to avoid this. Perhaps No More Nails would be a better way eh 
>Marky!
>

Hmmmm!  Tut tut!

Marky P.

Carpy wrote:
> "Glenn Millar"  wrote in message 
> news:fJWdnaRJdZuVBPnVnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@posted.plusnet...
>> -<GB>-Carpy wrote:
>>> "Glenn Millar"  wrote in message 
>>> news:Et-dnVXl3-BzmfnVnZ2dnUVZ8uCdnZ2d@posted.plusnet...
>>>> -<GB>-Carpy wrote:
>>>>> "Paul Murray"  wrote in message 
>>>>> news:AeK8k.30525$c47.14249@en-nntp-06.am2.easynews.com...
>>>>>> On 2008-06-26, Slider  wrote:
>>>>>>> It's not just your trade that requires some sort of protocols Bill.
>>>>>>> We need some sort of local register where the general public can post 
>>>>>>> their
>>>>>>> experiences of tradesmen they have employed.
>>>>>> http://www.checkatrade.com/
>>>>>>
>>>>> This mob look pretty good........
>>>>>
>>>>> http://www.checkatrade.com/IckenhamAerials
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>> Took a look. Have one or two issues with their 'Our Work' pics.
>>>>
>>>> Otherwise, not bad...
>>>>
>>>> Glenn...
>>> Can you elaborate a bit?
>> Far from the best way to terminate a wire lashing of the J bolt,
> 
> What's the best way?

There are several ways, a lot easier to demonstrate than describe, sorry...

> 
>> QR10/18 aerials should always have the dipole lid taped or cable tie to 
>> keep the lid closed, they often pop off.
> 
> Interesting. I've experimented with these Wolsey QR aerials on and off over 
> a period of about 6 years and never come across this problem. The lids close 
> with a loud and reassuring snap and are a real pain to get open again once 
> closed properly.

I've come across plenty, none of my own may I stress, but decided not to 
leave it to chance for the sake of a cable tie.

> 
>> On the Headend board, you should not clip electrical cable with steel 
>> staples.
> 
> I kind of knew this photo would get picked full of holes. This was one of 
> the first "headends" I constructed and mighty proud of it I was at the time. 
> I hadn't considered the issue of metal staples. I can't really see it's a 
> problem though as the staples don't penetrate far enough to hold down / 
> crush the earth cable as they are meant for 7mm cable, although maybe best 
> practice to avoid this. Perhaps No More Nails would be a better way eh 
> Marky!
> 

I had in the past used staples for the earth cable. That was until the 
clerk of works on one job put it on his snagging list for them to be 
insulated clips and I wasn't getting paid by the SQ until it was changed.



> Andy W -  Yes the green earthing cable should be yellow & green, but the 
> redundancy of the bonding isn't as bad as you're making out. Yes we do use 
> earth blocks these days as it's easier and neater and maintains 100% 
> redundancy but at the time I believed the amplifier or filter would be the 
> only components liable to be taken out for replacement / repair, and with 
> that in mind, the rest of the system would still be bonded if these were 
> gone. The PME was connected to the bottom right bonding bar over on the RHS.
> 
>> And will that aerial on the flatroof get bonded to the LPS that is present 
>> on the building.
> 
> That's the responsibility of the LPS company appointed by the client.


This is very true. But I've come across the argument of how could I 
possibly issue a Commissioning Certificate detailing it's completion and 
conformity to the relevant standards when the LSP connection wasn't 
completed at the time the Commissioning Certificate was issued. Catch 22...


> 
>> the job is not complete but it would be nice to see the pics of the 
>> completed job in order to be assured of a quality and complete 
>> installation...
> 
> Fair comment. I've not updated the site at all for over 2.5 years but have a 
> barrage of new photos to go up, many of which are completed systems.
> 
>> A clear lack of PPE and fall arrest while working near an unguarded roof 
>> edge, and from the photo, is 3 stories or more, who did his risk 
>> assessment?
> 
> Now your being a bit silly. You can't make a comment like that without more 
> information. The "edge" you are referring to peers over to another large 
> flat roof only a few feet down. More risk getting tangled in the fall arrest 
> system and throttling yourself than being hurt by falling over the edge.


For the benefit of a published photo, I'd always advise full fall arrest 
and hard hats, vis vests etc, or whatever is relevant for the photo. So 
people can't make comment. ;-)

> 
>> And I don't like to see the 'I did that job' marking of aerial rigs with 
>> coloured tape.
> 
> Indeed. I went through a phase of taping the cables like this, but after 
> about 20 jobs I realised it was a pain in the backside and you couldn't even 
> make out the colours from street level. Gave up on it after that. The idea 
> was to easily identify my work but in reality I can remember all my jobs 
> anyway as I revisit different areas. I'm always looking up to see how they 
> are getting on.

You always know your own work and others. I regularly impress customers 
by being able to tell them who originally did their installation just by 
looking up from the street.


> 
>> Of course that is nitpicking
> 
> Well no I certainly don't mind. I'm a member of this group to further my 
> knowledge just like most others, so any positive criticism is welcome. I 
> worked under a guy for years and he taught me plenty of stuff, but I now 
> know he was and still is a total cowboy. At the time I hadn't a clue that 
> the things he did routinely were dodgy as hell, so it's been a real eye 
> opener coming across people like Bill several years back and having to 
> re-educate myself in many areas. This group is a great place and it's from 
> threads like that most of us will take away another little bit of knowledge 
> we didn't have before.

We are all always learning. This group is a good source of information 
and help. Long may it continue.

> 
> Andy B - Believe me this type of strap has considerably less stretch than 
> the traditional steel lashing wire, which is why I used it. Larger bracket 
> and bolts would have been nowhere near as good IMO.
> 
> Doctor D - Haha yes indeed. You can see from the comments that these new 
> digital aerials were replacing broken aerials, not working analogue ones!!
> 
> Bill - Thanks as always.
> 
> 
> 
>

"Glenn Millar"  wrote in message 
news:O8adnfvYV7iz3vjVnZ2dnUVZ8uydnZ2d@posted.plusnet...
> There are several ways, a lot easier to demonstrate than describe
As the bishop said to the actress, as he reached for the brandy . . .

Bill

"Glenn Millar"  wrote in message 
news:O8adnfvYV7iz3vjVnZ2dnUVZ8uydnZ2d@posted.plusnet...

>>> Far from the best way to terminate a wire lashing of the J bolt,
>>
>> What's the best way?
>
> There are several ways, a lot easier to demonstrate than describe, 
> sorry...

Post up a photo or something if you can't describe it? In the photo the wire 
goes twice around the J bolt, then wraps back around itself at least 5 times 
at tight as possible.

"neverwas"  wrote in message 
news:W2I8k.15965$E41.553@text.news.virginmedia.com...
>>> Isn't it about time this trade had some sort of mandatory training and 
>>> certification?
>>>
> A reasonable reaction from a reasonable expert who cares about his 
> trade/profession/vocation.
>
> But do you remember Part P and all the restrictions on what an 
> uncertifictaed person can lawfully do by way of electrical work?  Seems to 
> me you wish to start down the same slippery slope to:
>


 I have to agree that we need to avoid more restrictions.
 I understand tree surgeons are trying to make 'safety checks' mandatory 
and an annual inspection fee and only certified specialists allowed to prune 
trees.

If we are not carefull all DIY will be banned and we will have a never 
ending stream of 'certified specialists' calling at our homes charging us 
for tasks we do not need.

You contract a man to install an aerial, when it is shown working you pay 
him, what is the problem?

buddenbrooks wrote:
> "neverwas"  wrote in message 
> news:W2I8k.15965$E41.553@text.news.virginmedia.com...
>>>> Isn't it about time this trade had some sort of mandatory training and 
>>>> certification?
>>>>
>> A reasonable reaction from a reasonable expert who cares about his 
>> trade/profession/vocation.
>>
>> But do you remember Part P and all the restrictions on what an 
>> uncertifictaed person can lawfully do by way of electrical work?  Seems to 
>> me you wish to start down the same slippery slope to:
>>
> 
> 
>  I have to agree that we need to avoid more restrictions.
>  I understand tree surgeons are trying to make 'safety checks' mandatory 
> and an annual inspection fee and only certified specialists allowed to prune 
> trees.
> 
> If we are not carefull all DIY will be banned and we will have a never 
> ending stream of 'certified specialists' calling at our homes charging us 
> for tasks we do not need.
> 
> You contract a man to install an aerial, when it is shown working you pay 
> him, what is the problem?
> 
> 
> 
Working; and to a standard of workmanship which is safe, secure and 
reliable are 2 separate issues...

I've seen many time, electrical work which was working, but totally 
unsafe and a fire hazard.

buddenbrooks wrote:
> "neverwas"  wrote in message 
> news:W2I8k.15965$E41.553@text.news.virginmedia.com...
>>
>> But do you remember Part P and all the restrictions on what an 
>> uncertifictaed person can lawfully do by way of electrical work?  Seems to 
>> me you wish to start down the same slippery slope to:
> 
>  I have to agree that we need to avoid more restrictions.

FAOD Part P doesn't impose any restriction on what electrical work an 
unregistered person can do.  It just requires that such work is done 
safely with regard to electric shock and fire risks and that certain 
types of work are notified to building control.

-- 
Andy

Carpy wrote:
> "Bill Wright"  wrote in message 
> news:ksqdncg0tMoAQ__VnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@pipex.net...
>> Yesterday I went out to a domestic job -- a rare event these days, but I 
>> do need the exercise. As it happened the house had a basic distribution 
>> system installed by me about thirty years ago for some long forgotten >> previous occupier. There must have been a problem with using a mains 
>> powered device in the loft (in those days some people were afraid of this) 
>> because the amp was behind the living room telly and it fed a six way >> splitter in the loft. Probably the VCR had been looped though for 
>> distribution. Ah, happy days!
>>
>> The present complaints were (a) I can't record C5 (b) the digital pictures 
>> in the kitchen stop and start.
>>
>> I noticed that the aerial cable in the kitchen came though the wall via a 
>> Sky-type 'I've made a mess of the the wall so this plastic thing hides it' 
>> device, and that the cable was new, and cheap. It transpired that the lady 
>> had initially called out a firm which I will call Brown Shite Aerials. The 
>> young man had extended the cable to the kitchen to allow the re-siting of 
>> the TV set, as requested, and also 'fiddled about' with the aerial 
>> connection in the bedroom. Reception in the kitchen and bedroom remaining 
>> poor, and that in the living room remaining sans analogue C5, he had then 
>> looked at the aerial, looked in the loft, declared himself baffled, and 
>> buggered off.
>>
>> In the living room the VCR was indeed unable to record C5, which was no 
>> surprise because the aerials comprised a Gp B on Emley and a Gp A on 
>> Bilsdale, with a 21 to34/39 to 68 diplexer. So, no C5 on ch37 then. In the 
>> living room the aerial downlead showed obvious signs of 'moisture 
>> ingress'. All this was put right, yet reception in the bedroom was still 
>> terrible. The coax plug (a new one) had been assembled in a way that 
>> caused a short circuit. In the kitchen reception appeared to be OK but the 
>> analyser said 'something wrong'. Outside on the wall I found an electrical 
>> joint box with the old and new coax connected inside by twisting together 
>> and the whole thing full of mastic.
>>
>> OK, now the thing is, this Brown Shite outfit appeared in this area about 
>> six months ago. A big advertising budget for a one man band, a half decent 
>> website. As far as the public can tell it's a good reliable firm with an 
>> experienced man behind it. The van, apparently, is neat and tidy, as is 
>> the man. But the guy obviously knows absolutely nothing about the job.>> Isn't it about time this trade had some sort of mandatory training and 
>> certification?
>>
>> Bill
>>
> 
> It does become rather annoying doesn't it. Round here there are huge 
> companies with huge advertising budgets, tidy & well signed vans but the 
> guys just seem like they don't have a clue. They all employ the "aerials 
> start from £60" tactics and most uninformed customers fall for it and end up 
> paying £300 for a Wideband Unix 52 on a bean pole. I've had jobs where 5 
> different firms have been called to the same job to see if they could solve 
> a problem, and all of them failed.. All that was needed was a masthead > amplifier, some good aerial positioning and tidying up a few connection 
> bodges in the loft.
> 
> The amount of phone calls I get where people are just enquiring about cost, 
> and when I give it to them straight some people seem shocked that I could 
> quote more than £100, when everyone else is "quoting £60". I used to spend a 
> few minutes explaining how they've got more chance knitting fog than getting 
> an new aerial installed for £60, but I just can't be bothered anymore. 
> Although saying that I did get a bit annoyed with one lady who phoned the 
> other day. She gasped at my £150 quotation, and when I asked her how much 
> she thought it would be, she said around £40 all in. Exasperated, I asked 
> her how much she thought the parts would cost me, and she said "perhaps 
> about £30"?
> 
> So I said do you really expect someone to come out and spend 2 hours labour, 
> for £10 before they have taken out any costs. She said "ok well maybe £15 
> tops for labour then". 
> 
> 

Yes, it's a strange old world. Keith Barber from KB Aerials in Sheffield (good guy, great service) was up at my place in Harrogate this week 
sorting-out some problems with my satellite installation (long story, 
another time, if anyone is interested). A couple of days later my next 
door neighbour (who'd previously commented on the aerial installation 
that Keith did for me last year) had a local guy round to install a new 
TV aerial - his old mast was very rusty. I watched this installer do his stuff. He lashed-up an clearly cheapie contract aerial on a spindly 
mast, and seeing that a masterhead amplifier was previously used, fitted one of those. I didn't see any attempt to use a meter for best alignment (Freeview in this part of darkest Harrogate is poor), the aerial doesn't point in the (general) same direction as other aerials in the area, and 
the mast is pissed, being clearly off vertical by quite a margin. 
Perhaps he was trying for Freesat.

What I find annoying about this (although clearly it's none of my 
business) is that the couple next door are OAPs and not being 
technically savvy (having previously talked to them about local TV 
reception) have probably been ripped-off by a cowboy installer. Had I 
known about their plans I would have got Keith to pop round when he'd 
finished my work so that they'd get a decent install.

I think that Bill's idea about some sort of formal certification for 
satellite and TV installation is a good idea. I've seen some botches in 
my time (as I look out of my study window I can see the results of a Sky installer's attempts to install a dish on my neighbour's house) and it's about time that this was regulated (much as I hate the idea of yet 
another chunk of HMG interference). A lot of this type of work is 
structural and should probably come under some sort of building control. More importantly, stopping the rip-off merchants sounds like a good idea to me. On the satellites.co.uk website they're running a list of 
recommended installers (I've yet to check it out). If nothing else, that sounds like a good place to start .....


Clem

"Andy Wade"  wrote in message 
news:6cp47qF3hg591U1@mid.individual.net...
> buddenbrooks wrote:
 > FAOD Part P doesn't impose any restriction on what electrical work an
> unregistered person can do.  It just requires that such work is done 
> safely with regard to electric shock and fire risks and that certain types 
> of work are notified to building control.
>


  Unfortunately most restrictive bodies are there for the member's benifit 
not the public. Try sueing a Doctor, solicitor or accountant. All of which 
have strong associations originally set up to maintain standards.

When I read the occasional reports of fires caused by electrical faults I 
notice that there is never a mention that it was due to faulty DIY. Given 
that modern plastic cables are not prone to degredation I presume the 
wireing fault was due to degraded
workmanship.

Also remember that "Work done fully complient with regulations" which is a 
common phrase used by builders and related
bussiness actually means "work to minimum standard we can do while not 
actually breaking the law"

In article <g4nlcd$smd$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk>, buddenbrooks
 wrote:

> "Andy Wade"  wrote in message
> news:6cp47qF3hg591U1@mid.individual.net...
> > buddenbrooks wrote:
>  > FAOD Part P doesn't impose any restriction on what electrical work an
> > unregistered person can do.  It just requires that such work is done
> > safely with regard to electric shock and fire risks and that certain
> > types of work are notified to building control.
> >


>   Unfortunately most restrictive bodies are there for the member's
> benifit not the public. Try sueing a Doctor, solicitor or accountant.
> All of which have strong associations originally set up to maintain
> standards.

> When I read the occasional reports of fires caused by electrical faults I
> notice that there is never a mention that it was due to faulty DIY.

I managed to prevent a fire (which would have destroyed an Elizabeth barn)
because the professional contractor failed to tighten up the cable clamp
screws on a socket.  i have also found a number of other professionally
installed faults in the theatre which I look after.  

Yes, faulty DIY can cause faults, but it's not only that.

-- 
From KT24 - in "Leafy Surrey"

Using a RISC OS computer running v5.11

"Clem Dye"  wrote in message 
news:TJHbk.21056$E41.1710@text.news.virginmedia.com...
Carpy wrote:
> "Bill Wright"  wrote in message 
> news:ksqdncg0tMoAQ__VnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@pipex.net...
>> I noticed that the aerial cable in the kitchen came though the wall via a 
>> Sky-type 'I've made a mess of the the wall so this plastic thing hides 
>> it' device, and that the cable was new, and cheap. It transpired that the 
>> lady had initially called out a firm which I will call Brown Shite 
>> Aerials.

Yesterday I was on a roof in Rotherham and I saw this J regTransit, laden to 
the gunnels, chugging painfully up a hill that can't have been more than one 
in twenty. It was our friends Brown Shite! It's an improvement on the estate 
car I must say.

Bill