As I write this ITV 2, 3 and 4 have been on a static caption for more than 
half an hour on both Sky and Freeview. ITV 1 is ok on Sky and Analogue, but 
it's a black screen on Freeview, and I know my reception of the ITV Freeview 
multiplex is ok because I'm getting Channel 4 on Freeview fine (tx Crystal 
Palace).

I guess they've had a catastophic failure of the playout system for ITV 2, 3 
and 4, but I wonder why it has killed off ITV 1 on Freeview? Must be rather 
worrying for ITV's advertisers. I wonder if anyone still works at ITV's 
Network centre at 2 in the morning, or have they all been "released"?

ITV 2+1, and 3+1 are still working, so I guess the system that creates the 1 
hour delay is unaffected.

Stephen wrote:
> As I write this ITV 2, 3 and 4 have been on a static caption for more than 
> half an hour on both Sky and Freeview. ITV 1 is ok on Sky and Analogue, but 
> it's a black screen on Freeview, and I know my reception of the ITV Freeview 
> multiplex is ok because I'm getting Channel 4 on Freeview fine (tx Crystal 
> Palace).
> 
> I guess they've had a catastophic failure of the playout system for ITV 2, 3 
> and 4, but I wonder why it has killed off ITV 1 on Freeview? Must be rather 
> worrying for ITV's advertisers. I wonder if anyone still works at ITV's 
> Network centre at 2 in the morning, or have they all been "released"?
> 
> ITV 2+1, and 3+1 are still working, so I guess the system that creates the 1 
> hour delay is unaffected. 

Blow by blow account of it all here:-

http://www.tvforum.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27932&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0

I don't think anything particularly important or compelling was lost.

-- 
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.

On Sat, 31 May 2008 02:48:30 +0100, "Stephen"
 wrote:

>As I write this ITV 2, 3 and 4 have been on a static caption for more than 
>half an hour on both Sky and Freeview. ITV 1 is ok on Sky and Analogue, but 
>it's a black screen on Freeview, and I know my reception of the ITV Freeview 
>multiplex is ok because I'm getting Channel 4 on Freeview fine (tx Crystal 
>Palace).
>
>I guess they've had a catastophic failure of the playout system for ITV 2, 3 
>and 4, but I wonder why it has killed off ITV 1 on Freeview? Must be rather 
>worrying for ITV's advertisers. I wonder if anyone still works at ITV's 
>Network centre at 2 in the morning, or have they all been "released"?
>
>ITV 2+1, and 3+1 are still working, so I guess the system that creates the 1 
>hour delay is unaffected. 
>
Bit of an exaggeration to describe no ITV as a catastrophe.  I can't
see Bob Geldof organising a global appeal :-)

In message , Mark Carver 
<mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote

>I don't think anything particularly important or compelling was lost.

No, only episode 2 of Pushing Daisies :)

-- 
Alan
news2006 {at} amac {dot} f2s {dot} com

>>I don't think anything particularly important or compelling was lost.
>
> No, only episode 2 of Pushing Daisies :)

Available online at itv.com i think after tonights ep.

"Dave Healey" <zen*1*0*0*9*8*8@zendotco.uk> wrote in message 
news:4841286f$0$10637$fa0fcedb@news.zen.co.uk...
>>>I don't think anything particularly important or compelling was 
>>>lost.
>>
>> No, only episode 2 of Pushing Daisies :)
>
> Available online at itv.com i think after tonights ep.
>

Whilst the whole series will be repeated later in the year anyway, 
according to ITV, personally I can't see any reason why they couldn't 
just drop one of the football matches, ITV must really want to 
decimate their audience base...

"Mark Carver" <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote in message 
news:6ace67F37eg43U1@mid.individual.net...
<snip>
>
> Blow by blow account of it all here:-
>
> http://www.tvforum.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27932&postdays=0&postorder=asc&start=0
>

Blimy, looking at that lot (and the time message stamps) all I can say 
is that there were an awful lot of (non) ITV broadcast engineers on 
their night-shifts last night or an awful lot of utterly sad 
insomniacs around!

Stephen wrote:
> As I write this ITV 2, 3 and 4 have been on a static caption for more than 
> half an hour on both Sky and Freeview. ITV 1 is ok on Sky and Analogue, but 
> it's a black screen on Freeview, and I know my reception of the ITV Freeview 
> multiplex is ok because I'm getting Channel 4 on Freeview fine (tx Crystal 
> Palace).
> 
> I guess they've had a catastophic failure of the playout system for ITV 2, 3 
> and 4, but I wonder why it has killed off ITV 1 on Freeview? Must be rather 
> worrying for ITV's advertisers. I wonder if anyone still works at ITV's 
> Network centre at 2 in the morning, or have they all been "released"?

There'll be no-one at ITV Network Centre at the time in the morning as 
it's just offices in Grays Inn Road. Although all ITVs transmission 
staff have been 'released' as it's been sold off to Thomson/Technicolour.

Are there (m)any adverts at that time of night?

> ITV 2+1, and 3+1 are still working, so I guess the system that creates the 1 
> hour delay is unaffected. 

But it does mean that everyone can watch whatever happened as hour later!

Stuart wrote:

> There'll be no-one at ITV Network Centre at the time in the morning as 
> it's just offices in Grays Inn Road. Although all ITVs transmission 
> staff have been 'released' as it's been sold off to Thomson/Technicolour.

The move to Chiswick must be imminent ?  Perhaps last night's mess was the 
migration of services going horribly wrong ?

-- 
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.

On Sat, 31 May 2008 14:19:49 +0100, Mark Carver
<mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>The move to Chiswick must be imminent ?  Perhaps last night's mess was the 
>migration of services going horribly wrong ?

Straightforward power failure - no more, no less. 

(Of the same type that the BBC have had three or four times this
decade.) :-)

--

"Zero Tolerance"  wrote in message 
news:48418f5f.25729843@enews.newsguy.com...
> On Sat, 31 May 2008 14:19:49 +0100, Mark Carver
> <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
>>The move to Chiswick must be imminent ?  Perhaps last night's mess 
>>was the
>>migration of services going horribly wrong ?
>
> Straightforward power failure - no more, no less.
>
> (Of the same type that the BBC have had three or four times this
> decade.) :-)
>

You mean their stand-by generator caught fire as well as the grid 
failing?...

:Jerry: wrote:
> "Zero Tolerance"  wrote in message 

>> Straightforward power failure - no more, no less.
>>
>> (Of the same type that the BBC have had three or four times this
>> decade.) :-)
>>
> 
> You mean their stand-by generator caught fire as well as the grid 
> failing?... 

It seems from the DS posting made today, that the UPS let out a nice fat spike.

-- 
Mark
Please replace invalid and invalid with gmx and net to reply.

"Mark Carver" <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote in message 
news:6adkmjF372gfkU1@mid.individual.net...
<sniP>
>
> It seems from the DS posting made today, that the UPS let out a nice 
> fat spike.
>

There is some what of an irony in that, of all the devices to *cause* 
an outage?! :~(

Somehow, I can't show any surprise ...

I used to be IT Support Person in residence for a large business
office.  One day, an engineer arrives at reception and I am summoned.
He flashes his credentials, and says he has come to test the UPS.

I take him up to the Equipment Room (you know, where the air is nice
and cool), and he busies himself over the UPS while I do one or two
chores like change the backup tapes.  Eventually he says:  "Yes!  That
all seems to be in order.  It just remains to test it!"

"Ok!", says I, expecting him to attach some sort of electrical load.
After a pause pregnant with significance, he adds: "Er, you have to do
that!"

"Right ho!", I say, unusually slow at sensing danger, "What's to be
done?"

"You throw this switch here!", he says, pointing to the electricity
supply to all the cabinets.

Aghast now, I make frantic phone calls trying to find someone a little
more senior!  "Surely this can't be right?", I query, but it was.

So I throws the switch, and there's a collective groan from all the
cabinets as all the disks spin down, and instant pandemonium out in
the office.

The first thing I notice when I examine the UPS for myself is that the
casing of the battery is split!  I write a stern email to my superiors
about the stupidity of such a test taking place during office hours,
and suggesting that in failing to spot the split battery, the engineer
was incompetent.

I am not popular for a while, but none of us are ever asked to repeat
such a test again!

On Sat, 31 May 2008 19:45:42 +0100, Mark Carver
<mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> 
> It seems from the DS posting made today, that the UPS let out a nice fat spike.

In article <g1s7h9$1ln$1@registered.motzarella.org>,
:Jerry: <INVALID@INVALID.INVALID> wrote:

>> It seems from the DS posting made today, that the UPS let out a nice 
>> fat spike.

>There is some what of an irony in that, of all the devices to *cause* 
>an outage?! :~( 

In 30 years of using computers, I have experienced innumerable
computer outages because of UPSes being installed, removed, serviced,
or exploding, and have never once had my computer stay up, or even
shut down in an orderly manner, when the mains was cut.

-- Richard
-- 
In the selection of the two characters immediately succeeding the numeral 9,
consideration shall be given to their replacement by the graphics 10 and 11 to
facilitate the adoption of the code in the sterling monetary area. (X3.4-1963)

On May 31, 8:48 am, Mark Carver <mark.car...@invalid.invalid> wrote:

>
> Blow by blow account of it all here:-
>
> http://www.tvforum.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27932&postdays=0&posto...
>
> I don't think anything particularly important or compelling was lost.

Another one of those ancient 1970's fault caption generators kicked in
at the Crystal Palace analogue tx, judging from this screenshot:

http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/9534/itv1analoguebm4.jpg

wrote in message 
news:b8b3440d-48d7-43e4-ba10-d63462124759@c58g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
> On May 31, 8:48 am, Mark Carver <mark.car...@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> Blow by blow account of it all here:-
>>
>> http://www.tvforum.co.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?t=27932&postdays=0&posto...
>>
>> I don't think anything particularly important or compelling was lost.
>
> Another one of those ancient 1970's fault caption generators kicked in
> at the Crystal Palace analogue tx, judging from this screenshot:
>
> http://img88.imageshack.us/img88/9534/itv1analoguebm4.jpg

For a while there was a newer looking fault caption on ITV2+1 on Freeview. 
It said "There is a Fault. Normal service will be resumed as soon as 
possible." in yellow letters on a light blue background (electronically 
generated), accompanied by a woman's voice reading out the same words. The 
voice sounded a bit over compressed or narrow bandwidth. It was different 
from ITV2+1 on satellite and unlike any of the other the fault captions.

ITV2+1 on Freeview is an oddity, being on a National Grid Wireless multiplex 
instead of an ITV one, so could this have been a Red Bee fault caption from 
BBC White City perhaps?

> ITV2+1 on Freeview is an oddity, being on a National Grid Wireless 
> multiplex instead of an ITV one, so could this have been a Red Bee fault 
> caption from BBC White City perhaps?

No, it goes no where near there.

"dB"  wrote in message 
news:laGdnSzk79ApBN_VRVnyjQA@posted.plusnet...
>> ITV2+1 on Freeview is an oddity, being on a National Grid Wireless 
>> multiplex instead of an ITV one, so could this have been a Red Bee fault 
>> caption from BBC White City perhaps?
>
> No, it goes no where near there.

I thought that Freeview multiplexes 1, B, C, D were put together by 
BBC/RedBee coding & multiplexing. ITV2+1 is on mux C or D (don't remember 
which), so if it doesn't go there I wonder where it does go?

On Sat, 31 May 2008 20:04:57 +0100, ":Jerry:"
<INVALID@INVALID.INVALID> wrote:

>
>"Mark Carver" <mark.carver@invalid.invalid> wrote in message 
>news:6adkmjF372gfkU1@mid.individual.net...
><sniP>
>>
>> It seems from the DS posting made today, that the UPS let out a nice 
>> fat spike.
>>
>
>There is some what of an irony in that, of all the devices to *cause* 
>an outage?! :~( 

My broadcasting experience is that we'd have had fewer bits of broken
kit and fewer outages if we hadn't had any UPSs at all!

At out new building, we don't have any - just two kinetic batteries
and a generator that comes up before the KB's spin down.

-- 
Z

In uk.tech.broadcast, on Sun, 1 Jun 2008 17:23:10, Zathras wrote:

>My broadcasting experience is that we'd have had fewer bits of broken
>kit and fewer outages if we hadn't had any UPSs at all!

Agreed!

>At out new building, we don't have any - just two kinetic batteries
>and a generator that comes up before the KB's spin down.

Outstanding idea.

-- 
Jim Crowther

"Zathras"  wrote in message 
news:fmi544prrsjulj3khmk6bfjnrejlivth1s@4ax.com...
<snip>
>
> At out new building, we don't have any - just two kinetic batteries
> and a generator that comes up before the KB's spin down.
>

I assume by "kinetic batteries" you mean 'motor-flywheel-generators', 
if so, how is this implemented?

On Sun, 01 Jun 2008 17:23:10 +0100, Zathras wrote:

> At out new building, we don't have any - just two kinetic batteries
> and a generator that comes up before the KB's spin down.

Hopefully the generator comes up before the kinetics spin down...

-- 
Cheers
Dave.

Java Jive wrote:
> Somehow, I can't show any surprise ...
> 
<snips long scary story>

Our critical servers are all fitted with dual PSUs.  The idea is that 
one is fed from the UPS, and one straight from the mains.  Lose the 
mains, and the UPS kicks in.  Lose the UPS, and they run straight from 
the mains.  (we're moving machine rooms soon, and as I now "own" some of 
the servers, I'll check that they really are like that in their new home)

Repeat after me:  "No Single Point Of Failure" :)

Andy

On 01/06/2008 23:02, Andy Champ wrote:

> Our critical servers are all fitted with dual PSUs.  The idea is that 
> one is fed from the UPS, and one straight from the mains.  Lose the 
> mains, and the UPS kicks in.  Lose the UPS, and they run straight from 
> the mains.  

Early morning generator test occurs, you loose mains for a few seconds, 
no problem UPS cuts in, generator starts, that extra server you added 
recently increases the inrush current as half of your PSUs come back on 
line at once, mains MCB trips, current drawn by the other half of your 
PSUs is double normal, workload increases on the servers as people start 
logging on for the day, servers draw that critical few extra amps, a 
circuit breaker on the UPS reaches its limit and it trips, it goes dark 
and quiet ...

On Sun, 01 Jun 2008 23:21:28 +0100, Andy Burns wrote:

> Early morning generator test occurs, you loose mains for a few seconds, 
> no problem UPS cuts in, generator starts, that extra server you added 
> recently increases the inrush current as half of your PSUs come back on 
> line at once, mains MCB trips, 

AWOOGA, AWOOGA, blooming great alarm goes off triggered by detecting 
voltage across the MCB(s)... 

-- 
Cheers
Dave.

"Richard Tobin"  wrote in message
news:g1setr$2050$1@pc-news.cogsci.ed.ac.uk...
> In article <g1s7h9$1ln$1@registered.motzarella.org>,
> :Jerry: <INVALID@INVALID.INVALID> wrote:
>
> >> It seems from the DS posting made today, that the UPS let out a nice
> >> fat spike.
>
> >There is some what of an irony in that, of all the devices to *cause*
> >an outage?! :~(
>
> In 30 years of using computers, I have experienced innumerable
> computer outages because of UPSes being installed, removed, serviced,
> or exploding, and have never once had my computer stay up, or even
> shut down in an orderly manner, when the mains was cut.
>
>

Heading up to the millenium I was responsible for maintaining a large test
facility and we were pulled in 4 weekends in a row to test the power backup
facilities. First weekend, after the power had been cut, the electricians
discovered that no one had thought to put diesel in the generator. Second
weekend the UPS went bang. Third weekend it was discovered that my test
facility was not actually connected into the power backup network. Fourth
weekend, power stayed up, but half the equipment went down because of spikes
on the voltage at switching.

The fifth weekend was the millenium itself, thankfully power backup was
never needed.

//Clive.

In article <FHksY0qWrvQIFwLO@nospam.at.my.choice.of.UID.invalid>, Jim
Crowther <Don't_bother@blackhole.do-not-spam.me.uk> scribeth thus
>In uk.tech.broadcast, on Sun, 1 Jun 2008 17:23:10, Zathras wrote:
>
>>My broadcasting experience is that we'd have had fewer bits of broken
>>kit and fewer outages if we hadn't had any UPSs at all!
>
>Agreed!
>
>>At out new building, we don't have any - just two kinetic batteries
>>and a generator that comes up before the KB's spin down.
>
>Outstanding idea.
>

Yep UPS's aren't the most reliable backup power. We directly float quite
a bit of Telecoms equipment off battery banks at either 24 or 48 volts,

Much more reliable that whopping it back up to 230 volts;))..
-- 
Tony Sayer

On Sun, 01 Jun 2008 22:01:21 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
 wrote:

>On Sun, 01 Jun 2008 17:23:10 +0100, Zathras wrote:
>
>> At out new building, we don't have any - just two kinetic batteries
>> and a generator that comes up before the KB's spin down.
>
>Hopefully the generator comes up before the kinetics spin down...

It's regularly run, tested and maintained - if it's like our last one,
probably a twin engine unit. Totally reliable IME.

-- 
Z

On Sun, 1 Jun 2008 20:59:13 +0100, ":Jerry:" <INVALID@INVALID.INVALID>
wrote:

>
>"Zathras"  wrote in message 
>news:fmi544prrsjulj3khmk6bfjnrejlivth1s@4ax.com...
><snip>
>>
>> At out new building, we don't have any - just two kinetic batteries
>> and a generator that comes up before the KB's spin down.
>>
>
>I assume by "kinetic batteries" you mean 'motor-flywheel-generators', 
>if so, how is this implemented? 

Two contra-rotating units (fearlessly) located on the roof. They
supply energy instantly and for a longer time than the generator takes
to start and stabilise. I don't have any more detail of our
installation so for more than that, Google is the place to look - KBs
are amazing devices! 

-- 
Z

On Sun, 01 Jun 2008 23:21:28 +0100, Andy Burns
 wrote:

>On 01/06/2008 23:02, Andy Champ wrote:
>
>> Our critical servers are all fitted with dual PSUs.  The idea is that 
>> one is fed from the UPS, and one straight from the mains.  Lose the 
>> mains, and the UPS kicks in.  Lose the UPS, and they run straight from 
>> the mains.  
>
>Early morning generator test occurs, you loose mains for a few seconds, 
>no problem UPS cuts in, generator starts, that extra server you added 
>recently increases the inrush current as half of your PSUs come back on 
>line at once, mains MCB trips, current drawn by the other half of your 
>PSUs is double normal, workload increases on the servers as people start 
>logging on for the day, servers draw that critical few extra amps, a 
>circuit breaker on the UPS reaches its limit and it trips, it goes dark 
>and quiet ...

..or..

My favourite is the 'Domestos' scenario -  where the UPS decides that
the mains frequency isn't near enough 50Hz even, ironically, though
it's good enough for the purpose. It then kicks in only to discover
its batteries are gubbed and, in its death throes, puts out *severe*
spikes killing everything it feeds..dead.

We had this with the transmission system at our old building and it
killed a Sony LMS pretty convincingly.

If you get these sorts of spikes they will likely rampage through the
UPS connected PSUs blowing them and the attached motherboards or, if
lucky, just cause them to hang.

Because of this kind of situation, IMHO, anywhere there's a UPS,
there's a single point of failure for all the attached devices
regardless of almost any other redundancy provision.

-- 
Z

"Zathras"  wrote in message 
news:bjc744h72te2bbe9209v4melucre1v3qik@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 1 Jun 2008 20:59:13 +0100, ":Jerry:" <INVALID@INVALID.INVALID>
> wrote:
>
>>
>>"Zathras"  wrote in message
>>news:fmi544prrsjulj3khmk6bfjnrejlivth1s@4ax.com...
>><snip>
>>>
>>> At out new building, we don't have any - just two kinetic batteries
>>> and a generator that comes up before the KB's spin down.
>>>
>>
>>I assume by "kinetic batteries" you mean 'motor-flywheel-generators',
>>if so, how is this implemented?
>
> Two contra-rotating units (fearlessly) located on the roof. They
> supply energy instantly and for a longer time than the generator takes
> to start and stabilise. I don't have any more detail of our
> installation so for more than that, Google is the place to look - KBs
> are amazing devices!

Where I worked, we just had a generator and no other provision for 
maintaining power when the mains went down. One notorious day, the mains 
went off so all the computers went down. A few seconds later (but too late 
to keep the computers going) there was an almighty roar from outside the 
window, accompanied by clouds of black smoke, as the generator kicked in. So 
the power came back. Just as we'd started to boot up the servers, there was 
a loud bang from the generator, a blinding flash of blue and a huge sheet or 
orange flame: it transpired that the power being drawn was vastly in excess 
of what the generator was rated to supply and it had overloaded, setting 
fire to the generator windings and then the tank of diesel. The folly of 
blocking off one of the car-park entrances as a security measure was 
highlighted when the fire engines tried to use it as the designated route to 
avoid the crowds of mingling people who had been evacuated into the car 
park, and found that they couldn't any longer - a classic case of one thing 
leading to another: lots of lessons were learned that day!

At the other end of the scale, when I was working in a small office and 
there was a power cut, they realised that not only were the computers down 
but also the phone system failed because it was VOIP and the router had no 
power. I saved the day when i remembered that I had a 12V->240V inveter in 
my car (useful for powering my laptop etc on the move) and we hooked it up 
to the phone system so we could still take phone calls. A classic "all eggs 
in one basket" failure; I think they changed things afterwards so that a 
power failure in the router failed over to a conventional analogue line with 
a non-cordless phone.

"Zathras"  wrote in message
news:pcd744la3ek9b9l06mo3aeguerqd8ln7ld@4ax.com...
> On Sun, 01 Jun 2008 23:21:28 +0100, Andy Burns
>  wrote:
>
>
> My favourite is the 'Domestos' scenario -  where the UPS decides that
> the mains frequency isn't near enough 50Hz even, ironically, though
> it's good enough for the purpose. It then kicks in only to discover
> its batteries are gubbed and, in its death throes, puts out *severe*
> spikes killing everything it feeds..dead.
>

The UPS failure I mentioned in my previous message was caused by an overload
on one of the phases, we soon discovered that some offices in the building
considered 'critical business equipment' to include the photo-copier, coffee
machine, fridge and a microwave. They had managed to string 4-gang extension
right they way round the office to ensure almost every piece of electrical
equipment was connected to the wonderful UPS, therefore overloading one of
the phases on the carefully specified UPS.

//Clive.

Yes, that story took place some years ago nearer the start of my IT
career (which was itself a second career) than the beginning, but
towards the end of it, after some promotion, I was in a party from the
same firm invited to IBM in the States, where they demonstrated all
their latest servers, which featured dual everything and the then
latest hotplug technology.

The demo was quite impressive.  A rather nice petite girl set up a
presentation running off a server via the network, and then invited
some of down one by one to pull bits out of the server.  We removed a
PSU, a netcard, some RAM, a disk, and I can't remember what else, and
it never even blinked.

But the thing about my original story that I could never get my head
round was the stupidity of doing a test like that during office hours.

If the supply had never failed, or had failed out of office hours, the
test lost more collective man-hours than if we'd never had a UPS at
all, while if the supply had failed during office hours, we would have
been no worse off having no UPS at all!  And either way, we would have
saved the cost of the equipment and the 'maintenance' contract.

Such a system doesn't make any sense if it is tested at a time when
the potential consequences are as catastrophic as that which the
system itself is supposed to be guarding against.  It only makes sense
testing it at times when the consequences are not severe..

On Sun, 01 Jun 2008 23:02:41 +0100, Andy Champ 
wrote:

> Java Jive wrote:
> > Somehow, I can't show any surprise ...
> > 
> <snips long scary story>
> 
> Our critical servers are all fitted with dual PSUs.  
>
> [snip]
> 
> Repeat after me:  "No Single Point Of Failure" :)

On Mon, 02 Jun 2008 09:42:06 +0100, Zathras wrote:

> It's regularly run, tested and maintained - 

Hopefully more than check the oil, start, stopped and left until the next 
"test". It should be checked, started, run with a hefty load for several 
hours then stopped and checked again.

> if it's like our last one, probably a twin engine unit. 

Single alternator or a "twin set"? Two engines, two alternators and 
syncronishing switch gear.

> Totally reliable IME.

A lot of people say that, until the system is pressed into serious action.  
B-)

-- 
Cheers
Dave.

"Mortimer"  wrote in message 
news:NZmdnQNkU5dwId7VnZ2dnUVZ8s3inZ2d@posted.plusnet...
>
<snip>
>
> A classic "all eggs in one basket" failure; I think they changed 
> things afterwards so that a power failure in the router failed over 
> to a conventional analogue line with a non-cordless phone.
>

I always understood it as a H&S pre-requisite that at least one phone 
had to be connected (or at least fall-over to) a conventional analogue 
line for exactly the reason you cite - and that phone had to be sited 
were anyone could use it?

"Clive"  wrote in message 
news:g20e1m$5hb$1@news.al.sw.ericsson.se...
>
> "Zathras"  wrote in message
> news:pcd744la3ek9b9l06mo3aeguerqd8ln7ld@4ax.com...
>> On Sun, 01 Jun 2008 23:21:28 +0100, Andy Burns
>>  wrote:
>>
>>
>> My favourite is the 'Domestos' scenario -  where the UPS decides 
>> that
>> the mains frequency isn't near enough 50Hz even, ironically, though
>> it's good enough for the purpose. It then kicks in only to discover
>> its batteries are gubbed and, in its death throes, puts out 
>> *severe*
>> spikes killing everything it feeds..dead.
>>
>
> The UPS failure I mentioned in my previous message was caused by an 
> overload
> on one of the phases, we soon discovered that some offices in the 
> building
> considered 'critical business equipment' to include the 
> photo-copier, coffee
> machine, fridge and a microwave. They had managed to string 4-gang 
> extension
> right they way round the office to ensure almost every piece of 
> electrical
> equipment was connected to the wonderful UPS, therefore overloading 
> one of
> the phases on the carefully specified UPS.
>

There really is a case for all office equipment to be 'hard wired' 
into their respective power source, or at least any equipment/circuit 
that is UPS 'protected'...

On Sun, 1 Jun 2008 12:27:06 +0100, "Stephen"
 wrote:

>For a while there was a newer looking fault caption on ITV2+1 on Freeview. 
>It said "There is a Fault. Normal service will be resumed as soon as 
>possible." in yellow letters on a light blue background (electronically 
>generated), accompanied by a woman's voice reading out the same words. The 
>voice sounded a bit over compressed or narrow bandwidth. It was different 
>from ITV2+1 on satellite and unlike any of the other the fault captions.
>
>ITV2+1 on Freeview is an oddity, being on a National Grid Wireless multiplex 
>instead of an ITV one, so could this have been a Red Bee fault caption from 
>BBC White City perhaps? 

No, that's the generic fault caption (and audio) generated by National
Grid Wireless when an incoming feed goes down. 
--

On Sun, 1 Jun 2008 16:48:32 +0100, "Stephen"
 wrote:

>I thought that Freeview multiplexes 1, B, C, D were put together by 
>BBC/RedBee coding & multiplexing. ITV2+1 is on mux C or D (don't remember 
>which), so if it doesn't go there I wonder where it does go? 

No, Mux C and D are operated by National Grid Wireless. Nothing to do
with the BBC or Red Bee in any way.

--

"Zero Tolerance"  wrote in message
news:4843d29e.6905187@enews.newsguy.com...
> On Sun, 1 Jun 2008 12:27:06 +0100, "Stephen"
>  wrote:
>
> >For a while there was a newer looking fault caption on ITV2+1 on
Freeview.
> >It said "There is a Fault. Normal service will be resumed as soon as
> >possible." in yellow letters on a light blue background (electronically
> >generated), accompanied by a woman's voice reading out the same words.

I note the lack of words "We apologise ...." on this new, electronically
generated version.

In article <g20h54$smm$2@registered.motzarella.org>, :Jerry: wrote:
> > The UPS failure I mentioned in my previous message was caused by an 
> > overload
> > on one of the phases, we soon discovered that some offices in the 
> > building
> > considered 'critical business equipment' to include the 
> > photo-copier, coffee
> > machine, fridge and a microwave. They had managed to string 4-gang 
> > extension
> > right they way round the office to ensure almost every piece of 
> > electrical
> > equipment was connected to the wonderful UPS, therefore overloading 
> > one of
> > the phases on the carefully specified UPS.
> >
> 
> There really is a case for all office equipment to be 'hard wired' 
> into their respective power source, or at least any equipment/circuit 
> that is UPS 'protected'... 

Or UPS power outlets could have non-standard sockets that you can't buy 
in the shops.

Rod.

In article , Java Jive 
 writes

>The demo was quite impressive.  A rather nice petite girl set up a
>presentation running off a server via the network, and then invited
>some of down one by one to pull bits out of the server.  We removed a
>PSU, a netcard, some RAM, a disk, and I can't remember what else, and
>it never even blinked.

When I worked for Ahem*, a friend was at Cebit (... I think. All trade 
shows blur together after a while), where Ahem decided to show off its 
partnership with Novell. In particular, server failover was to be 
demonstrated - how it might switch seamlessly to a clone without missing 
an IPX packet (or whatever).

Our tame CNE was adamant it would work beautifully, so the PR girl 
decided to present it in the most spectacular fashion possible. Squibs 
were fitted to machine "A" and some lovely hired to push a suitable 
plunger.

Sure enough it worked like a dream. Service uninterrupted. Unfortunately 
however, they forgot to mention any of this to the security guards.

I'll leave the rest to the imagination...

Regards,

Simonm.

*name changed to protect the saucy.
-- 
simonm|at|muircom|dot|demon|.|c|oh|dot|u|kay
SIMON MUIR, BRISTOL UK
EUROPEANS AGAINST THE EU                   http://www.eurofaq.freeuk.com/
GT250A'76  R80/RT'86  110CSW TDi'88  www.kc3ltd.co.uk/profile/eurofollie/

In article <g20l41$896$1@news.al.sw.ericsson.se>,
	Clive wrote:

> "Zero Tolerance"  wrote in message
> news:4843d29e.6905187@enews.newsguy.com...
>> On Sun, 1 Jun 2008 12:27:06 +0100, "Stephen"
>>  wrote:
>>
>> >For a while there was a newer looking fault caption on ITV2+1 on
> Freeview.
>> >It said "There is a Fault. Normal service will be resumed as soon as
>> >possible." in yellow letters on a light blue background (electronically
>> >generated), accompanied by a woman's voice reading out the same words.

> I note the lack of words "We apologise ...." on this new, electronically
> generated version.

Sky 3 had a "Temporary Fault" slide for a time during the wee small
hours last night. It was accompanied by the EPG background music.

-- 
Paul Martin

LOL :-)

They are some great stories coming out of this thread ...

On Mon, 02 Jun 2008 12:28:23 GMT, SpamTrapSeeSig
 wrote:
> 
> Sure enough it worked like a dream. Service uninterrupted. Unfortunately 
> however, they forgot to mention any of this to the security guards.
> 
> I'll leave the rest to the imagination...

On Mon, 2 Jun 2008 15:30:42 UTC, Java Jive  wrote:

> LOL :-)
> 
> They are some great stories coming out of this thread ...
> 
> On Mon, 02 Jun 2008 12:28:23 GMT, SpamTrapSeeSig
>  wrote:
> > 
> > Sure enough it worked like a dream. Service uninterrupted. Unfortunately 
> > however, they forgot to mention any of this to the security guards.
> > 
> > I'll leave the rest to the imagination...

Many many years ago we bought a mainframe IBM from the States - Much 
cheaper even including the shipping. However, it was of course 
American three phase. We got hold of a motor generator that could 
produce same but, for reasons that don't come readily to mind, it was 
installed outside the computer room underneath a stairway. It was 
installed well before the computer. Computer arrives. Gets installed, 
everything hunky. That night Security guard doing his rounds comes 
across said motor/generator under the stairs - "Hmm" he says to 
himself, "That's not usually on". Click........................... 


-- 
Regards
Dave Saville

NB Remove nospam. for good email address

"Zero Tolerance"  wrote in message 
news:4843d2ce.6953125@enews.newsguy.com...
> On Sun, 1 Jun 2008 16:48:32 +0100, "Stephen"
>  wrote:
>
>>I thought that Freeview multiplexes 1, B, C, D were put together by
>>BBC/RedBee coding & multiplexing. ITV2+1 is on mux C or D (don't remember
>>which), so if it doesn't go there I wonder where it does go?
>
> No, Mux C and D are operated by National Grid Wireless. Nothing to do
> with the BBC or Red Bee in any way.
>
> --

I worked for company in the early 70 s with a system UPS.  Mains driving a 
generater, on the same shaft a massive flywheel and clutch.On the other side 
of the clutch a deisel engine. When the mains failed the clutch engaged  and 
the deisel engine took over.Apart from the noise, and the fright, if you 
were in the building, the only thing that happend was a dip in the frequency 
down to 48 cps.

There was also a fire prevention system which consisted of 4 large CO2 
bottles . these discharged into the building    in the event of fire.

On 03/06/2008 17:14, Tonyatk wrote:

> I worked for company in the early 70 s with a system UPS.  Mains driving a 
> generater, on the same shaft a massive flywheel and clutch.On the other side 
> of the clutch a deisel engine. When the mains failed the clutch engaged  and 
> the deisel engine took over. Apart from the noise, and the fright, if you 
> were in the building, the only thing that happend was a dip in the frequency 
> down to 48 cps.
> 
> There was also a fire prevention system which consisted of 4 large CO2 
> bottles. these discharged into the building in the event of fire.

I was waiting for the " ... until one day ... "

"Andy Burns"  wrote in message 
news:p6CdnRrynORnY9nVnZ2dnUVZ8vOdnZ2d@posted.plusnet...
<snip>
>>
>> There was also a fire prevention system which consisted of 4 large 
>> CO2 bottles. these discharged into the building in the event of 
>> fire.
>
> I was waiting for the " ... until one day ... "

I remember one case (in the mid 1980s) were such a fire prevention 
system was called upon to do it's job, only to find in the inquiry 
afterwards that (at some point in history) someone had either closed 
the bottles main vales or they had never been opened - as the system 
dated from the 1930s [1] and no one could find any record of when or 
if the bottle were changed these valves could have been closed for 
decades! Oh, and 1930 era tar and paper insulated cables burn quite 
well BTW...

[1] this was a large railway signalling installation

On Mon, 2 Jun 2008 11:20:54 +0200, "Clive"  wrote:

>The UPS failure I mentioned in my previous message was caused by an overload
>on one of the phases, we soon discovered that some offices in the building
>considered 'critical business equipment' to include the photo-copier, coffee
>machine, fridge and a microwave. They had managed to string 4-gang extension
>right they way round the office to ensure almost every piece of electrical
>equipment was connected to the wonderful UPS, therefore overloading one of
>the phases on the carefully specified UPS.

Kettles are deadly too!

-- 
Z

On Mon, 02 Jun 2008 10:52:01 +0100 (BST), "Dave Liquorice"
 wrote:

>On Mon, 02 Jun 2008 09:42:06 +0100, Zathras wrote:
>
>> It's regularly run, tested and maintained - 
>
>Hopefully more than check the oil, start, stopped and left until the next 
>"test". It should be checked, started, run with a hefty load for several 
>hours then stopped and checked again.

Rather than just a 'hefty load' I'd prefer it to run the *actual* load
during testing. In a big environment, there's always kit that should
and shouldn't be on the generator supply.

Why would it need to run 'for several hours'..I'd have thought that
one hour would have been more than satisfactory. 

>> if it's like our last one, probably a twin engine unit. 
>
>Single alternator or a "twin set"? Two engines, two alternators and 
>syncronishing switch gear.

No idea. I guess it's twin engine due to the load requirements.

>> Totally reliable IME.
>
>A lot of people say that, until the system is pressed into serious action.  

..except that my experience is over 20 years of systems pressed into
serious action. In that time, three utterly catastrophic UPS failures
and no diesel generator failures. IMHO, the only weakness of a well
maintained diesel generator is the startup time.

-- 
Z

"Andy Burns"  wrote in message 
news:p6CdnRrynORnY9nVnZ2dnUVZ8vOdnZ2d@posted.plusnet...
> On 03/06/2008 17:14, Tonyatk wrote:
>
>> I worked for company in the early 70 s with a system UPS.  Mains driving 
>> a generater, on the same shaft a massive flywheel and clutch.On the other 
>> side of the clutch a deisel engine. When the mains failed the clutch 
>> engaged  and the deisel engine took over. Apart from the noise, and the 
>> fright, if you were in the building, the only thing that happend was a 
>> dip in the frequency down to 48 cps.
>>
>> There was also a fire prevention system which consisted of 4 large CO2 
>> bottles. these discharged into the building in the event of fire.
>
> I was waiting for the " ... until one day ... "

Fortunatly we were well trained. So that the first thing to do was to disarm 
the co2 system as soon as we went in .In doing so a big flap came down so 
the door could not be closed. So had to arm the system be fore we left to 
close the door.

We once tested the co2 system  by setting up a remote triggering device . 
Being small room we stood some  20 yadrs away with the door open (Safty 
system disabled.) WoW ! ! !

On Mon, 2 Jun 2008 10:26:55 +0100, "Mortimer"  wrote:

>there was 
>a loud bang from the generator, a blinding flash of blue and a huge sheet or 
>orange flame: it transpired that the power being drawn was vastly in excess 
>of what the generator was rated to supply and it had overloaded, 

Hmmm..I'd have expected some kind of over-current protection on the
generator output. Sounds like a poorly maintained cowboy install?

>At the other end of the scale, when I was working in a small office and 
>there was a power cut, they realised that not only were the computers down 
>but also the phone system failed because it was VOIP and the router had no 
>power. I saved the day when i remembered that I had a 12V->240V inveter in 
>my car (useful for powering my laptop etc on the move) and we hooked it up 
>to the phone system so we could still take phone calls. A classic "all eggs 
>in one basket" failure; 

Assuming VOIP phones *always work* appears to be an increasingly
common error. I've experienced 100% VOIP failure when an errant device
on a very high bandwidth VLAN decided to produce a broadcast storm.
More entertainingly, our remote network management people hadn't a
clue because they couldn't connect to any network devices to find out
what the problem was!! BTW, I've summarised and there were specific
reasons why the LAN was deliberately not hardened for this kind of DOS
attack. Strangely, it's a little more hardened now!

-- 
Z

On Tue, 03 Jun 2008 10:40:31 +0100, Zathras wrote:

> Assuming VOIP phones *always work* appears to be an increasingly
> common error. 

Assuming that any of our modern technology always works is an increasingly 
common error.

-- 
Cheers
Dave.

On Tue, 03 Jun 2008 10:20:45 +0100, Zathras wrote:

> Rather than just a 'hefty load' I'd prefer it to run the *actual* load
> during testing. 

Being ultra cautious one would run the system into a decent dummy load 
before switching across to the actual load. Sod has a unerring abilty to 
strike when you are most vulnerable.

> In a big environment, there's always kit that should and shouldn't be on 
> the generator supply.

You mean the odd extension lead and kettle...  B-)

> Why would it need to run 'for several hours'..I'd have thought that
> one hour would have been more than satisfactory. 

Depends how long it takes things to *fully* warm up. More of that slightly 
loose connection or hidden damage from rodents or partialy obstructed by a 
birds nest air duct than the engine and alternator.

> No idea. I guess it's twin engine due to the load requirements.

I have a feeling that twin engines on the same shaft is not easy. If one 
engine has slightly higher output than the other... Not saying it can't be 
done but it adds to the control system and for this sort of thing KISS 
rules.

-- 
Cheers
Dave.

The message <IL6dnYxPf9KQjNjVnZ2dnUVZ8tHinZ2d@posted.plusnet>
from "Tonyatk"  contains these words:


> We once tested the co2 system  by setting up a remote triggering device . 
> Being small room we stood some  20 yadrs away with the door open (Safty 
> system disabled.) WoW ! ! !



Someone once did that at one of our sites, the bottles needed changing
so it was decided to let them off in situ.

Very spectacual I believe.

When they had finished they did a test run of the diesel but it did not
start.  There was a bit of panic and worries about perhaps something
having frozen so they rang the diesel expert.  Unfortunately the Safety
man was with him and overheard the call, he asked various questions
about what they had been doing.  He quoted all sorts of safety rules
covering CO2 systems.  For a time everyone had to have a piece of paper
saying they were authorised to work on CO2 (just to lock it off) and
fill in various other bits of paper every time you did so.  The rules
were quite ambiguous and I never found anywhere else that followed the
rules and eventually the novelty wore off and no one bothered about the
paperwork.

It was eventually found that the diesel did not start because there is a
cut-off valve in the fuel pipe that needs reseting after a CO2
discharge.  



MB

"Zathras"  wrote in message 
news:ra3a44teohrfgm8b60gnvitnaq78jidrdo@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 2 Jun 2008 10:26:55 +0100, "Mortimer"  wrote:
>
>>there was
>>a loud bang from the generator, a blinding flash of blue and a huge sheet 
>>or
>>orange flame: it transpired that the power being drawn was vastly in 
>>excess
>>of what the generator was rated to supply and it had overloaded,
>
> Hmmm..I'd have expected some kind of over-current protection on the
> generator output. Sounds like a poorly maintained cowboy install?

Yes I was rather amazed that there wasn't an over-current device - either a 
trip switch to cut the fuel to the diesel engine, a circuit breaker or even 
a simple fuse.

> I've experienced 100% VOIP failure when an errant device
> on a very high bandwidth VLAN decided to produce a broadcast storm.
> More entertainingly, our remote network management people hadn't a
> clue because they couldn't connect to any network devices to find out
> what the problem was!! BTW, I've summarised and there were specific
> reasons why the LAN was deliberately not hardened for this kind of DOS
> attack. Strangely, it's a little more hardened now!

When I was developing a product for restoring a PC's hard disk from an image 
based on a server, over the LAN, one of my colleagues managed to bring the 
company LAN to a grinding halt when he connected the server and PC onto the 
company LAN instead of a private test LAN. The rate at which data was 
transferred swamped the switch and left very little time for other traffic. 
Luckily it only affected the segments supplied by that hub and didn't go 
upstream to affect other floors in the building - the benefits of switches 
rather than hubs! As a result, I managed to persuade Sysmantec to include a 
"throttling" option into Ghost so that you could artificially restrict the 
rate at which the server would supply data, so as to leave spare capacity 
for other LAN traffic - important as the product was intended for use on a 
live LAN once it was in the field.

One of the few disciplinary offences in the company was the connection of 
any DHCP server to the LAN, on the grounds that it may supply either 
duplicate addresses to the ones supplied by the real DHCP server or else 
completely different addresses if the rogue server had a different 
scope/subnet to the real one. When you have one hub on your desk that's on 
the company LAN and another one that's on a private test LAN, you need to 
make very certain which LAN you are connecting your server to!

In news:nyyfbegfubjuvyypbz.k1wd857.pminews@srv1.howhill.net,
Dave Liquorice  typed, for some strange, 
unexplained reason:
: On Tue, 03 Jun 2008 10:20:45 +0100, Zathras wrote:
:
: > Rather than just a 'hefty load' I'd prefer it to run the *actual*
: > load during testing.
:
: Being ultra cautious one would run the system into a decent dummy load
: before switching across to the actual load. Sod has a unerring abilty
: to strike when you are most vulnerable.
:
: > In a big environment, there's always kit that should and shouldn't
: > be on the generator supply.
:
: You mean the odd extension lead and kettle...  B-)

When I worked for British Rail in the late 80's/early 90's at Stanier 
House in Birmingham all our computer equipment was on a completely 
separate mains supply which was stabilised and backed up by UPS's and a 
generator. To stop people plugging kettles, etc. into the computer supply, 
they fitted non-standard plugs & sockets with the pins rotated by 90 
degrees ("Walsall" gauge, for those that know them) but it didn't take at 
least one enterprising person to find a spare plug to put on their 
kettle..!

Fortunately, I never knew the mains fail while I was there. Although the 
number of people unplugging the T-base-2 Ethernet 
connectors.................!

Ivor

Zero Tolerance wrote:
> On Sun, 1 Jun 2008 16:48:32 +0100, "Stephen"
>  wrote:
> 
> 
>>I thought that Freeview multiplexes 1, B, C, D were put together by 
>>BBC/RedBee coding & multiplexing. ITV2+1 is on mux C or D (don't remember 
>>which), so if it doesn't go there I wonder where it does go? 
> 
> 
> No, Mux C and D are operated by National Grid Wireless. Nothing to do
> with the BBC or Red Bee in any way.

IIRC the coding and Muxing is done by Siemens (ex BBC-Technology) at TV 
Centre