A player on a the teeing ground tees his ball up takes a swing but it is an 
air shot, he then moves his ball and tee.
what is the penalty and ruling please?

On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 21:08:23 +0100, "Thomopac"
 wrote:

> A player on a the teeing ground tees his ball up takes a swing but it is an 
> air shot, he then moves his ball and tee.
> what is the penalty and ruling please? 

See 18-2a/1.  Player Who Misses Tee Shot Tees Ball Lower Before Making
Next Stroke
Q. A player playing from the teeing ground misses the ball completely.
He pushes his tee further into the ground and plays. What is the
ruling?

A. When the player made a stroke, the ball was in play (see Definition
of “Ball in Play”). By pushing the tee further into the ground, he
moved the ball and incurred a penalty of one stroke under Rule 18-2a
and was required to replace it. However, when the player made a stroke
at the ball without replacing it, he played under penalty of stroke
and distance (see Rule 27-1a). This procedure overrides Rule 18-2a
and, therefore, the penalty under Rule 18-2a does not apply. (Revised)

So, his air shot is #1.
Stroke and distance penalty is #2.
Shot is #3.

It's the same as if he'd parked his first shot out of bounds.

p.

Peter Strauss in :

>> A player on a the teeing ground tees his ball up takes a swing but it is an 
>> air shot, he then moves his ball and tee.
>> what is the penalty and ruling please? 
>
>See 18-2a/1.  Player Who Misses Tee Shot Tees Ball Lower Before Making
>Next Stroke
>Q. A player playing from the teeing ground misses the ball completely.
>He pushes his tee further into the ground and plays. What is the
>ruling?
>
>A. When the player made a stroke, the ball was in play (see Definition
>of “Ball in Play”). By pushing the tee further into the ground, he
>moved the ball and incurred a penalty of one stroke under Rule 18-2a
>and was required to replace it. However, when the player made a stroke
>at the ball without replacing it, he played under penalty of stroke
>and distance (see Rule 27-1a). This procedure overrides Rule 18-2a
>and, therefore, the penalty under Rule 18-2a does not apply. (Revised)
>
>So, his air shot is #1.
>Stroke and distance penalty is #2.
>Shot is #3.

ACK.

Interesting enough, if you cannot apply 27-1 (stroke and distance), unduely
moving a ball in play becomes a real score killer - see decision 18-2a/3:

One penalty stroke acc. to 18-2a (move ball at rest)
plus _two_ penalty strokes acc. to 20-7 c (or loss of hole - 20-7 b) for
playing from the wrong place.


Q: Is the latter also applicable if the player in the OP refuses to have
deemed his ball unplayable?

Ciao,

Paul

On 29 Jun, 08:12, Paul Schmitz-Josten  wrote:
> Peter Strauss in :
>
>
>
>
>
> >> A player on a the teeing ground tees his ball up takes a swing but it is an
> >> air shot, he then moves his ball and tee.
> >> what is the penalty and ruling please?
>
> >See 18-2a/1.  Player Who Misses Tee Shot Tees Ball Lower Before Making
> >Next Stroke
> >Q. A player playing from the teeing ground misses the ball completely.
> >He pushes his tee further into the ground and plays. What is the
> >ruling?
>
> >A. When the player made a stroke, the ball was in play (see Definition
> >of “Ball in Play”). By pushing the tee further into the ground, he
> >moved the ball and incurred a penalty of one stroke under Rule 18-2a
> >and was required to replace it. However, when the player made a stroke
> >at the ball without replacing it, he played under penalty of stroke
> >and distance (see Rule 27-1a). This procedure overrides Rule 18-2a
> >and, therefore, the penalty under Rule 18-2a does not apply. (Revised)
>
> >So, his air shot is #1.
> >Stroke and distance penalty is #2.
> >Shot is #3.
>
> ACK.
>
> Interesting enough, if you cannot apply 27-1 (stroke and distance), unduely
> moving a ball in play becomes a real score killer - see decision 18-2a/3:
>
> One penalty stroke acc. to 18-2a (move ball at rest)
> plus _two_ penalty strokes acc. to 20-7 c (or loss of hole - 20-7 b) for
> playing from the wrong place.
>


Two strokes total.  20-7c refers you to the applicable rule, see
penalty statement at the end of rule 18

"Thomopac"  wrote in message 
news:kPydndoqEdCsB_vVnZ2dnUVZ8rOdnZ2d@eclipse.net.uk...
>A player on a the teeing ground tees his ball up takes a swing but it is an 
>air shot, he then moves his ball and tee.
> what is the penalty and ruling please?

Interestingly, if the player after the air shot, lifted his ball and 
tee-peg, discarded the tee-peg, dropped the ball as near as possible to 
where it lay on the tee-peg and then played a stroke at the ball lying on 
the ground, he would not incur a penalty and would be lying two. After the 
air shot, the ball is lying on a movable obstruction (the tee peg) and the 
player is entitled to proceed under 24-1, with the teeing ground now being 
through the green.

Cheers

JohnT

On 29 Jun, 12:11, "John Turner"  wrote:
> "Thomopac"  wrote in message
>
> news:kPydndoqEdCsB_vVnZ2dnUVZ8rOdnZ2d@eclipse.net.uk...
>
> >A player on a the teeing ground tees his ball up takes a swing but it is an
> >air shot, he then moves his ball and tee.
> > what is the penalty and ruling please?
>
> Interestingly, if the player after the air shot, lifted his ball and
> tee-peg, discarded the tee-peg, dropped the ball as near as possible to
> where it lay on the tee-peg and then played a stroke at the ball lying on
> the ground, he would not incur a penalty and would be lying two. After the
> air shot, the ball is lying on a movable obstruction (the tee peg) and the
> player is entitled to proceed under 24-1, with the teeing ground now being
> through the green.
>

Ooh, a nice sneaky quiz question.

johnty wrote:
> On 29 Jun, 12:11, "John Turner"  wrote:
>> "Thomopac"  wrote in message
>>
>> news:kPydndoqEdCsB_vVnZ2dnUVZ8rOdnZ2d@eclipse.net.uk...
>>
>>> A player on a the teeing ground tees his ball up takes a swing but it is an
>>> air shot, he then moves his ball and tee.
>>> what is the penalty and ruling please?
>> Interestingly, if the player after the air shot, lifted his ball and
>> tee-peg, discarded the tee-peg, dropped the ball as near as possible to
>> where it lay on the tee-peg and then played a stroke at the ball lying on
>> the ground, he would not incur a penalty and would be lying two. After the
>> air shot, the ball is lying on a movable obstruction (the tee peg) and the
>> player is entitled to proceed under 24-1, with the teeing ground now being
>> through the green.
>>
> 
> Ooh, a nice sneaky quiz question.
> 


....and a sneaky but incorrect assertion. This is an old 
chestnut.....and relies on the equity allowance contained in Decision 
25-2/8. However, a tee remains a tee while it is being used as a tee (ie 
to raise the ball off the ground)....and while being used as such it is 
part of the player's own equipment and being used for the purpose 
intended. A player would not be entitled to seek 'relief' from this 
situation, as is contemplated in Decision 25-2/8. In purposely lifting 
his ball (in play) and then dropping and playing it from the teeing 
ground this player has effectively proceeded under stroke and distance 
(see Rule 20-5),and is deemed to have taken a Rule 27-1 drop. 
("....Except as otherwise provided in the Rules, if a player makes a 
stroke at a ball from the spot at which the original ball was last 
played, he is deemed to have proceeded under penalty of stroke and 
distance...").

After making the stroke the player would be lying three (not two)!

cheers
david

david s-a  writes:

> johnty wrote:
> > On 29 Jun, 12:11, "John Turner"  wrote:
> >> "Thomopac"  wrote in message
> >>
> >> news:kPydndoqEdCsB_vVnZ2dnUVZ8rOdnZ2d@eclipse.net.uk...
> >>
> >>> A player on a the teeing ground tees his ball up takes a swing but it is an
> >>> air shot, he then moves his ball and tee.
> >>> what is the penalty and ruling please?
> >> Interestingly, if the player after the air shot, lifted his ball and
> >> tee-peg, discarded the tee-peg, dropped the ball as near as possible to
> >> where it lay on the tee-peg and then played a stroke at the ball lying on
> >> the ground, he would not incur a penalty and would be lying two. After the
> >> air shot, the ball is lying on a movable obstruction (the tee peg) and the
> >> player is entitled to proceed under 24-1, with the teeing ground now being
> >> through the green.
> >>
> > Ooh, a nice sneaky quiz question.
> >
> 
> 
> ....and a sneaky but incorrect assertion. This is an old
> chestnut.....and relies on the equity allowance contained in Decision
> 25-2/8. However, a tee remains a tee while it is being used as a tee
> (ie to raise the ball off the ground)....and while being used as such
> it is part of the player's own equipment and being used for the
> purpose intended. A player would not be entitled to seek 'relief' from
> this situation, as is contemplated in Decision 25-2/8. In purposely
> lifting his ball (in play) and then dropping and playing it from the
> teeing ground this player has effectively proceeded under stroke and
> distance (see Rule 20-5),and is deemed to have taken a Rule 27-1
> drop. ("....Except as otherwise provided in the Rules, if a player
> makes a stroke at a ball from the spot at which the original ball was
> last played, he is deemed to have proceeded under penalty of stroke
> and distance...").
> 
> After making the stroke the player would be lying three (not two)!

"Except as otherwise provided in the Rules" includes relief from
this movable obstruction (the tee).  The player is entitled to
proceed under Rule 24-1 as described.

The tee is the player's equipment.  It is also a movable
obstruction.

-- 
--------------\              /--------------
              +\    Phil    /+ 
              ++++++++++++++++
              +/    Kyle    \+ 
--------------/              \--------------

"david s-a"  wrote in message 
news:6ctadoF3i1tkuU1@mid.individual.net...
> johnty wrote:
>> On 29 Jun, 12:11, "John Turner"  wrote:
>>> "Thomopac"  wrote in message
>>>
>>> news:kPydndoqEdCsB_vVnZ2dnUVZ8rOdnZ2d@eclipse.net.uk...
>>>
>>>> A player on a the teeing ground tees his ball up takes a swing but it 
>>>> is an
>>>> air shot, he then moves his ball and tee.
>>>> what is the penalty and ruling please?
>>> Interestingly, if the player after the air shot, lifted his ball and
>>> tee-peg, discarded the tee-peg, dropped the ball as near as possible to
>>> where it lay on the tee-peg and then played a stroke at the ball lying 
>>> on
>>> the ground, he would not incur a penalty and would be lying two. After 
>>> the
>>> air shot, the ball is lying on a movable obstruction (the tee peg) and 
>>> the
>>> player is entitled to proceed under 24-1, with the teeing ground now 
>>> being
>>> through the green.
>>>
>>
>> Ooh, a nice sneaky quiz question.
>>
>
>
> ....and a sneaky but incorrect assertion. This is an old chestnut.....and 
> relies on the equity allowance contained in Decision 25-2/8. However, a 
> tee remains a tee while it is being used as a tee (ie to raise the ball 
> off the ground)....and while being used as such it is part of the player's 
> own equipment and being used for the purpose intended. A player would not 
> be entitled to seek 'relief' from this situation, as is contemplated in 
> Decision 25-2/8. In purposely lifting his ball (in play) and then dropping 
> and playing it from the teeing ground this player has effectively 
> proceeded under stroke and distance (see Rule 20-5),and is deemed to have 
> taken a Rule 27-1 drop. ("....Except as otherwise provided in the Rules, 
> if a player makes a stroke at a ball from the spot at which the original 
> ball was last played, he is deemed to have proceeded under penalty of 
> stroke and distance...").
>
> After making the stroke the player would be lying three (not two)!
>
> cheers
> david

That is interesting, David, but surely a tee peg is a tee peg, only while it 
is being used to tee up a ball.
Before that time it is simply part of the player's equipment.
Once the player has made a stroke at the teed ball, I think the tee peg 
ceases to be his equipment until the player picks it up again.
The tee peg was therefore a tee peg only for the player's first stroke.
Unless the player re-tees the ball, I think his ball is now simply sitting 
on a movable obstruction.

If a player tees his ball too high, duffs his shot and the ball goes 
vertically upwards, coming down and striking his tee peg, I cannot see 
myself imposing a penalty stroke under 19-2 because it struck his equipment.

Regards,
Malcolm

On 1 Jul, 13:37, "M L Wadsworth"
 wrote:
> "david s-a"  wrote in message
>
> news:6ctadoF3i1tkuU1@mid.individual.net...
>
>
>
>
>
> > johnty wrote:
> >> On 29 Jun, 12:11, "John Turner"  wrote:
> >>> "Thomopac"  wrote in message
>
> >>>news:kPydndoqEdCsB_vVnZ2dnUVZ8rOdnZ2d@eclipse.net.uk...
>
> >>>> A player on a the teeing ground tees his ball up takes a swing but it
> >>>> is an
> >>>> air shot, he then moves his ball and tee.
> >>>> what is the penalty and ruling please?
> >>> Interestingly, if the player after the air shot, lifted his ball and
> >>> tee-peg, discarded the tee-peg, dropped the ball as near as possible to
> >>> where it lay on the tee-peg and then played a stroke at the ball lying
> >>> on
> >>> the ground, he would not incur a penalty and would be lying two. After
> >>> the
> >>> air shot, the ball is lying on a movable obstruction (the tee peg) and
> >>> the
> >>> player is entitled to proceed under 24-1, with the teeing ground now
> >>> being
> >>> through the green.
>
> >> Ooh, a nice sneaky quiz question.
>
> > ....and a sneaky but incorrect assertion. This is an old chestnut.....and
> > relies on the equity allowance contained in Decision 25-2/8. However, a
> > tee remains a tee while it is being used as a tee (ie to raise the ball
> > off the ground)....and while being used as such it is part of the player's
> > own equipment and being used for the purpose intended. A player would not
> > be entitled to seek 'relief' from this situation, as is contemplated in
> > Decision 25-2/8. In purposely lifting his ball (in play) and then dropping
> > and playing it from the teeing ground this player has effectively
> > proceeded under stroke and distance (see Rule 20-5),and is deemed to have
> > taken a Rule 27-1 drop. ("....Except as otherwise provided in the Rules,
> > if a player makes a stroke at a ball from the spot at which the original
> > ball was last played, he is deemed to have proceeded under penalty of
> > stroke and distance...").
>
> > After making the stroke the player would be lying three (not two)!
>
> > cheers
> > david
>
> That is interesting, David, but surely a tee peg is a tee peg, only while it
> is being used to tee up a ball.
> Before that time it is simply part of the player's equipment.
> Once the player has made a stroke at the teed ball, I think the tee peg
> ceases to be his equipment until the player picks it up again.
> The tee peg was therefore a tee peg only for the player's first stroke.
> Unless the player re-tees the ball, I think his ball is now simply sitting
> on a movable obstruction.
>


I sort of agree, but I'd say the tee has dual status - equipment and
obstruction -rather than one, then the other.

I don't see why the player cannot treat it as an MO if he wants to
after taking the first stroke.

johnty wrote:
> On 1 Jul, 13:37, "M L Wadsworth"
>  wrote:
>> "david s-a"  wrote in message
>>
>> news:6ctadoF3i1tkuU1@mid.individual.net...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> johnty wrote:
>>>> On 29 Jun, 12:11, "John Turner"  wrote:
>>>>> "Thomopac"  wrote in message
>>>>> news:kPydndoqEdCsB_vVnZ2dnUVZ8rOdnZ2d@eclipse.net.uk...
>>>>>> A player on a the teeing ground tees his ball up takes a swing but it
>>>>>> is an
>>>>>> air shot, he then moves his ball and tee.
>>>>>> what is the penalty and ruling please?
>>>>> Interestingly, if the player after the air shot, lifted his ball and
>>>>> tee-peg, discarded the tee-peg, dropped the ball as near as possible to
>>>>> where it lay on the tee-peg and then played a stroke at the ball lying
>>>>> on
>>>>> the ground, he would not incur a penalty and would be lying two. After
>>>>> the
>>>>> air shot, the ball is lying on a movable obstruction (the tee peg) and
>>>>> the
>>>>> player is entitled to proceed under 24-1, with the teeing ground now
>>>>> being
>>>>> through the green.
>>>> Ooh, a nice sneaky quiz question.
>>> ....and a sneaky but incorrect assertion. This is an old chestnut.....and
>>> relies on the equity allowance contained in Decision 25-2/8. However, a
>>> tee remains a tee while it is being used as a tee (ie to raise the ball
>>> off the ground)....and while being used as such it is part of the player's
>>> own equipment and being used for the purpose intended. A player would not
>>> be entitled to seek 'relief' from this situation, as is contemplated in
>>> Decision 25-2/8. In purposely lifting his ball (in play) and then dropping
>>> and playing it from the teeing ground this player has effectively
>>> proceeded under stroke and distance (see Rule 20-5),and is deemed to have
>>> taken a Rule 27-1 drop. ("....Except as otherwise provided in the Rules,
>>> if a player makes a stroke at a ball from the spot at which the original
>>> ball was last played, he is deemed to have proceeded under penalty of
>>> stroke and distance...").
>>> After making the stroke the player would be lying three (not two)!
>>> cheers
>>> david
>> That is interesting, David, but surely a tee peg is a tee peg, only while it
>> is being used to tee up a ball.
>> Before that time it is simply part of the player's equipment.
>> Once the player has made a stroke at the teed ball, I think the tee peg
>> ceases to be his equipment until the player picks it up again.
>> The tee peg was therefore a tee peg only for the player's first stroke.
>> Unless the player re-tees the ball, I think his ball is now simply sitting
>> on a movable obstruction.
>>
> 
> 
> I sort of agree, but I'd say the tee has dual status - equipment and
> obstruction -rather than one, then the other.
> 
> I don't see why the player cannot treat it as an MO if he wants to
> after taking the first stroke.
> 
   My judgement in this scenario is that Rule 24-1b contemplates that 
the ball has come to rest in or on the moveable obstruction _after 
having moved in play_ . Rule 1-4 provides for a separate equity ruling 
in this case, as this is not the situation contemplated in the equity 
Decision 25-2/18. In the interests of fair play and application of the 
rules this is the ruling I would give if faced with this responsibility.

I will refer this point through our association for an authoritative 
opinion.

cheers
david

M L Wadsworth wrote:
> "david s-a"  wrote in message 
> news:6ctadoF3i1tkuU1@mid.individual.net...
>> johnty wrote:
>>> On 29 Jun, 12:11, "John Turner"  wrote:
>>>> "Thomopac"  wrote in message
>>>>
>>>> news:kPydndoqEdCsB_vVnZ2dnUVZ8rOdnZ2d@eclipse.net.uk...
>>>>
>>>>> A player on a the teeing ground tees his ball up takes a swing but it 
>>>>> is an
>>>>> air shot, he then moves his ball and tee.
>>>>> what is the penalty and ruling please?
>>>> Interestingly, if the player after the air shot, lifted his ball and
>>>> tee-peg, discarded the tee-peg, dropped the ball as near as possible to
>>>> where it lay on the tee-peg and then played a stroke at the ball lying 
>>>> on
>>>> the ground, he would not incur a penalty and would be lying two. After 
>>>> the
>>>> air shot, the ball is lying on a movable obstruction (the tee peg) and 
>>>> the
>>>> player is entitled to proceed under 24-1, with the teeing ground now 
>>>> being
>>>> through the green.
>>>>
>>> Ooh, a nice sneaky quiz question.
>>>
>>
>> ....and a sneaky but incorrect assertion. This is an old chestnut.....and 
>> relies on the equity allowance contained in Decision 25-2/8. However, a 
>> tee remains a tee while it is being used as a tee (ie to raise the ball 
>> off the ground)....and while being used as such it is part of the player's 
>> own equipment and being used for the purpose intended. A player would not 
>> be entitled to seek 'relief' from this situation, as is contemplated in 
>> Decision 25-2/8. In purposely lifting his ball (in play) and then dropping 
>> and playing it from the teeing ground this player has effectively 
>> proceeded under stroke and distance (see Rule 20-5),and is deemed to have 
>> taken a Rule 27-1 drop. ("....Except as otherwise provided in the Rules, 
>> if a player makes a stroke at a ball from the spot at which the original 
>> ball was last played, he is deemed to have proceeded under penalty of 
>> stroke and distance...").
>>
>> After making the stroke the player would be lying three (not two)!
>>
>> cheers
>> david
> 
> That is interesting, David, but surely a tee peg is a tee peg, only while it 
> is being used to tee up a ball.
> Before that time it is simply part of the player's equipment.
> Once the player has made a stroke at the teed ball, I think the tee peg 
> ceases to be his equipment until the player picks it up again.


Malcolm,

While a ball (in play) remains on a tee peg, it remains a tee'd ball 
placed there by the player for the purpose of raising it off the ground, 
and taking advantage of the Rule that allows it. I do not believe the 
Rules intend to change the status of the tee while it is being used for 
the purpose intended and allowed by the Rules, simply in order to 
circumvent a valid penalty under another appropriate Rule.

cheers
david

On 2 Jul, 00:31, david s-a  wrote:

>
>    My judgement in this scenario is that Rule 24-1b contemplates that
> the ball has come to rest in or on the moveable obstruction _after
> having moved in play_ .


I think your adding more than the rule intends there, David.

24-1b could have easily been written using the words 'If a ball comes
to rest in or on...'.  But it clearly says 'If the ball lies...'

johnty wrote:
> On 2 Jul, 00:31, david s-a  wrote:
> 
>>    My judgement in this scenario is that Rule 24-1b contemplates that
>> the ball has come to rest in or on the moveable obstruction _after
>> having moved in play_ .
> 
> 
> I think your adding more than the rule intends there, David.
> 
> 24-1b could have easily been written using the words 'If a ball comes
> to rest in or on...'.  But it clearly says 'If the ball lies...'


Well of course! What on earth are/were the R&A thinking?

BTW, my view on the R27-1 drop and S&D penalty is reinforced by the 
answer to D18-2a/11, and also D27-2b/10; confirming intent at the time 
of lifting is all important to make S&D over-ride breach of 18.2a.

cheers
david

david s-a  writes:

> johnty wrote:
> > On 2 Jul, 00:31, david s-a  wrote:
> >
> >>    My judgement in this scenario is that Rule 24-1b contemplates that
> >> the ball has come to rest in or on the moveable obstruction _after
> >> having moved in play_ .
> > I think your adding more than the rule intends there, David.
> > 24-1b could have easily been written using the words 'If a ball comes
> > to rest in or on...'.  But it clearly says 'If the ball lies...'
> 
> 
> Well of course! What on earth are/were the R&A thinking?

How much effort should be expended closing a loophole for
the player who misses the teed ball and then wants to
take relief from the tee?

(Answer: None [or even less].)

-- 
--------------\              /--------------
              +\    Phil    /+ 
              ++++++++++++++++
              +/    Kyle    \+ 
--------------/              \--------------

"John Turner"  wrote in message 
news:fWtak.26124$j7.470336@news.indigo.ie...
>
> "david s-a"  wrote in message 
> news:6ctadoF3i1tkuU1@mid.individual.net...
>> johnty wrote:
>>> On 29 Jun, 12:11, "John Turner"  wrote:
>>>> "Thomopac"  wrote in message
>>>>
>>>> news:kPydndoqEdCsB_vVnZ2dnUVZ8rOdnZ2d@eclipse.net.uk...
>>>>
>>>>> A player on a the teeing ground tees his ball up takes a swing but it 
>>>>> is an
>>>>> air shot, he then moves his ball and tee.
>>>>> what is the penalty and ruling please?
>>>> Interestingly, if the player after the air shot, lifted his ball and
>>>> tee-peg, discarded the tee-peg, dropped the ball as near as possible to
>>>> where it lay on the tee-peg and then played a stroke at the ball lying 
>>>> on
>>>> the ground, he would not incur a penalty and would be lying two. After 
>>>> the
>>>> air shot, the ball is lying on a movable obstruction (the tee peg) and 
>>>> the
>>>> player is entitled to proceed under 24-1, with the teeing ground now 
>>>> being
>>>> through the green.
>>>>
>>>
>>> Ooh, a nice sneaky quiz question.
>>>
>>
>>
>> ....and a sneaky but incorrect assertion. This is an old chestnut.....and 
>> relies on the equity allowance contained in Decision 25-2/8. However, a 
>> tee remains a tee while it is being used as a tee (ie to raise the ball 
>> off the ground)....and while being used as such it is part of the 
>> player's own equipment and being used for the purpose intended. A player 
>> would not be entitled to seek 'relief' from this situation, as is 
>> contemplated in Decision 25-2/8. In purposely lifting his ball (in play) 
>> and then dropping and playing it from the teeing ground this player has 
>> effectively proceeded under stroke and distance (see Rule 20-5),and is 
>> deemed to have taken a Rule 27-1 drop. ("....Except as otherwise provided 
>> in the Rules, if a player makes a stroke at a ball from the spot at which 
>> the original ball was last played, he is deemed to have proceeded under 
>> penalty of stroke and distance...").
>>
>> After making the stroke the player would be lying three (not two)!
>>
>> cheers
>> david
>
> Sorry David,
>
> It isn't an incorrect assertion or a chestnut, old or new. It is a recent 
> USGA ruling that was discussed at an RCGA level four Rules seminar that I 
> attended in May.

I get the feeling that my post of July 1st, in answer to Davids spippy and 
incorrect response to my original post, isn't showing up on most peoples 
systems. Is this true?

JohnT

On 3 Jul, 19:38, "John Turner"  wrote:

>
> I get the feeling that my post of July 1st...isn't showing up on most peoples
> systems. Is this true?
>

I didn't see it.

John Turner wrote:
> "John Turner"  wrote in message 
> news:fWtak.26124$j7.470336@news.indigo.ie...
>> "david s-a"  wrote in message 
>> news:6ctadoF3i1tkuU1@mid.individual.net...
>>> johnty wrote:
>>>> On 29 Jun, 12:11, "John Turner"  wrote:
>>>>> "Thomopac"  wrote in message
>>>>>
>>>>> news:kPydndoqEdCsB_vVnZ2dnUVZ8rOdnZ2d@eclipse.net.uk...
>>>>>
>>>>>> A player on a the teeing ground tees his ball up takes a swing but it 
>>>>>> is an
>>>>>> air shot, he then moves his ball and tee.
>>>>>> what is the penalty and ruling please?
>>>>> Interestingly, if the player after the air shot, lifted his ball and
>>>>> tee-peg, discarded the tee-peg, dropped the ball as near as possible to
>>>>> where it lay on the tee-peg and then played a stroke at the ball lying 
>>>>> on
>>>>> the ground, he would not incur a penalty and would be lying two. After 
>>>>> the
>>>>> air shot, the ball is lying on a movable obstruction (the tee peg) and 
>>>>> the
>>>>> player is entitled to proceed under 24-1, with the teeing ground now 
>>>>> being
>>>>> through the green.
>>>>>
>>>> Ooh, a nice sneaky quiz question.
>>>>
>>>
>>> ....and a sneaky but incorrect assertion. This is an old chestnut.....and 
>>> relies on the equity allowance contained in Decision 25-2/8. However, a 
>>> tee remains a tee while it is being used as a tee (ie to raise the ball 
>>> off the ground)....and while being used as such it is part of the 
>>> player's own equipment and being used for the purpose intended. A player 
>>> would not be entitled to seek 'relief' from this situation, as is 
>>> contemplated in Decision 25-2/8. In purposely lifting his ball (in play) 
>>> and then dropping and playing it from the teeing ground this player has 
>>> effectively proceeded under stroke and distance (see Rule 20-5),and is 
>>> deemed to have taken a Rule 27-1 drop. ("....Except as otherwise provided 
>>> in the Rules, if a player makes a stroke at a ball from the spot at which 
>>> the original ball was last played, he is deemed to have proceeded under 
>>> penalty of stroke and distance...").
>>>
>>> After making the stroke the player would be lying three (not two)!
>>>
>>> cheers
>>> david
>> Sorry David,
>>
>> It isn't an incorrect assertion or a chestnut, old or new. It is a recent 
>> USGA ruling that was discussed at an RCGA level four Rules seminar that I 
>> attended in May.
> 


John,

The reference to an 'old chestnut' is the notion that the teeing ground 
of the hole being played becomes 'through the green' after a player has 
put his ball in play. This is quite incorrect, it was a notion some 
years ago and if I recall correctly was argued in connection with the 
old procedure of dropping a ball behind you over your shoulder, where, 
in a particular case, the ball rolled back onto the teeing ground. This 
concern was eventually dispelled, and unfortunately I don't have a 
reference for it. Johnty may be familiar with the episode.

As to the 'recent USGA ruling', is there a reference to this.......we 
here usually have immediate access to all USGA rulings.....and I'm 
afraid I don't see it anywhere. My inquiries through our own association 
and in discussions with fellow national level ROs suggest that the 
answer in Decision 18-2a/1 is unequivocal, you move the ball...you get 
penalised.

I will continue to chase this down.

cheers
david

david s-a  writes:

> John Turner wrote:
> > "John Turner"  wrote in message
> > news:fWtak.26124$j7.470336@news.indigo.ie...
> >> "david s-a"  wrote in message
> >> news:6ctadoF3i1tkuU1@mid.individual.net...
> >>> johnty wrote:
> >>>> On 29 Jun, 12:11, "John Turner"  wrote:
> >>>>> "Thomopac"  wrote in message
> >>>>>
> >>>>> news:kPydndoqEdCsB_vVnZ2dnUVZ8rOdnZ2d@eclipse.net.uk...
> >>>>>
> >>>>>> A player on a the teeing ground tees his ball up takes a swing
> >>>>>> but it is an
> >>>>>> air shot, he then moves his ball and tee.
> >>>>>> what is the penalty and ruling please?
> >>>>> Interestingly, if the player after the air shot, lifted his ball and
> >>>>> tee-peg, discarded the tee-peg, dropped the ball as near as possible to
> >>>>> where it lay on the tee-peg and then played a stroke at the ball
> >>>>> lying on
> >>>>> the ground, he would not incur a penalty and would be lying
> >>>>> two. After the
> >>>>> air shot, the ball is lying on a movable obstruction (the tee
> >>>>> peg) and the
> >>>>> player is entitled to proceed under 24-1, with the teeing ground
> >>>>> now being
> >>>>> through the green.
> >>>>>
> >>>> Ooh, a nice sneaky quiz question.
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> ....and a sneaky but incorrect assertion. This is an old
> >>> chestnut.....and relies on the equity allowance contained in
> >>> Decision 25-2/8. However, a tee remains a tee while it is being
> >>> used as a tee (ie to raise the ball off the ground)....and while
> >>> being used as such it is part of the player's own equipment and
> >>> being used for the purpose intended. A player would not be
> >>> entitled to seek 'relief' from this situation, as is contemplated
> >>> in Decision 25-2/8. In purposely lifting his ball (in play) and
> >>> then dropping and playing it from the teeing ground this player
> >>> has effectively proceeded under stroke and distance (see Rule
> >>> 20-5),and is deemed to have taken a Rule 27-1 drop. ("....Except
> >>> as otherwise provided in the Rules, if a player makes a stroke at
> >>> a ball from the spot at which the original ball was last played,
> >>> he is deemed to have proceeded under penalty of stroke and
> >>> distance...").
> >>>
> >>> After making the stroke the player would be lying three (not two)!
> >>>
> >>> cheers
> >>> david
> >> Sorry David,
> >>
> >> It isn't an incorrect assertion or a chestnut, old or new. It is a
> >> recent USGA ruling that was discussed at an RCGA level four Rules
> >> seminar that I attended in May.
> >
> 
> 
> John,
> 
> The reference to an 'old chestnut' is the notion that the teeing
> ground of the hole being played becomes 'through the green' after a
> player has put his ball in play. This is quite incorrect, it was a
> notion some years ago and if I recall correctly was argued in
> connection with the old procedure of dropping a ball behind you over
> your shoulder, where, in a particular case, the ball rolled back onto
> the teeing ground. This concern was eventually dispelled, and
> unfortunately I don't have a reference for it. Johnty may be familiar
> with the episode.
> 
> As to the 'recent USGA ruling', is there a reference to this.......we
> here usually have immediate access to all USGA rulings.....and I'm
> afraid I don't see it anywhere. My inquiries through our own
> association and in discussions with fellow national level ROs suggest
> that the answer in Decision 18-2a/1 is unequivocal, you move the
> ball...you get penalised.
> 
> I will continue to chase this down.

"we here usually have immediate access to all USGA rulings"

Really?  What does 'here' refer to in that sentence (uk.sport.golf,
Australia, something else)?

-- 
--------------\              /--------------
              +\    Phil    /+ 
              ++++++++++++++++
              +/    Kyle    \+ 
--------------/              \--------------

Peter Strauss  writes:

> On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 21:08:23 +0100, "Thomopac"
>  wrote:
> 
> > A player on a the teeing ground tees his ball up takes a swing but it is an 
> > air shot, he then moves his ball and tee.
> > what is the penalty and ruling please? 
> 
> See 18-2a/1.  Player Who Misses Tee Shot Tees Ball Lower Before Making
> Next Stroke
> Q. A player playing from the teeing ground misses the ball completely.
> He pushes his tee further into the ground and plays. What is the
> ruling?
> 
> A. When the player made a stroke, the ball was in play (see Definition
> of “Ball in Play”). By pushing the tee further into the ground, he
> moved the ball and incurred a penalty of one stroke under Rule 18-2a
> and was required to replace it. However, when the player made a stroke
> at the ball without replacing it, he played under penalty of stroke
> and distance (see Rule 27-1a). This procedure overrides Rule 18-2a
> and, therefore, the penalty under Rule 18-2a does not apply. (Revised)
> 
> So, his air shot is #1.
> Stroke and distance penalty is #2.
> Shot is #3.
> 
> It's the same as if he'd parked his first shot out of bounds.

Peter, don't you recall that your USGA workshop instructor
(in 2006) used this same brain-teaser after the first
day's session?

Tsk, tsk, I'm sure that he would not be pleased to know
that you weren't paying full attention.

Do you recall Day 2's question?  [below, don't peek]

-- 
--------------\              /--------------
              +\    Phil    /+ 
              ++++++++++++++++
              +/    Kyle    \+ 
--------------/              \--------------

(What is the only Decision that does not have a letter 'a'
or 'e' in its title?)

Phil Kyle  writes:

> Peter Strauss  writes:
> 
> > On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 21:08:23 +0100, "Thomopac"
> >  wrote:
> > 
> > > A player on a the teeing ground tees his ball up takes a swing but it is an 
> > > air shot, he then moves his ball and tee.
> > > what is the penalty and ruling please? 
> > 
> > See 18-2a/1.  Player Who Misses Tee Shot Tees Ball Lower Before Making
> > Next Stroke
> > Q. A player playing from the teeing ground misses the ball completely.
> > He pushes his tee further into the ground and plays. What is the
> > ruling?
> > 
> > A. When the player made a stroke, the ball was in play (see Definition
> > of “Ball in Play”). By pushing the tee further into the ground, he
> > moved the ball and incurred a penalty of one stroke under Rule 18-2a
> > and was required to replace it. However, when the player made a stroke
> > at the ball without replacing it, he played under penalty of stroke
> > and distance (see Rule 27-1a). This procedure overrides Rule 18-2a
> > and, therefore, the penalty under Rule 18-2a does not apply. (Revised)
> > 
> > So, his air shot is #1.
> > Stroke and distance penalty is #2.
> > Shot is #3.
> > 
> > It's the same as if he'd parked his first shot out of bounds.
> 
> Peter, don't you recall that your USGA workshop instructor
> (in 2006) used this same brain-teaser after the first
> day's session?

Oops, that was 2007 (not 2006).


> Tsk, tsk, I'm sure that he would not be pleased to know
> that you weren't paying full attention.
> 
> Do you recall Day 2's question?  [below, don't peek]
> 
> -- 
> --------------\              /--------------
>               +\    Phil    /+ 
>               ++++++++++++++++
>               +/    Kyle    \+ 
> --------------/              \--------------
> 
> (What is the only Decision that does not have a letter 'a'
> or 'e' in its title?)

-- 
--------------\              /--------------
              +\    Phil    /+ 
              ++++++++++++++++
              +/    Kyle    \+ 
--------------/              \--------------

Phil Kyle wrote:
> david s-a  writes:
> 
>> John Turner wrote:
>>> "John Turner"  wrote in message
>>> news:fWtak.26124$j7.470336@news.indigo.ie...
>>>> "david s-a"  wrote in message
>>>> news:6ctadoF3i1tkuU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>>> johnty wrote:
>>>>>> On 29 Jun, 12:11, "John Turner"  wrote:
>>>>>>> "Thomopac"  wrote in message
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> news:kPydndoqEdCsB_vVnZ2dnUVZ8rOdnZ2d@eclipse.net.uk...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A player on a the teeing ground tees his ball up takes a swing
>>>>>>>> but it is an
>>>>>>>> air shot, he then moves his ball and tee.
>>>>>>>> what is the penalty and ruling please?
>>>>>>> Interestingly, if the player after the air shot, lifted his ball and
>>>>>>> tee-peg, discarded the tee-peg, dropped the ball as near as possible to
>>>>>>> where it lay on the tee-peg and then played a stroke at the ball
>>>>>>> lying on
>>>>>>> the ground, he would not incur a penalty and would be lying
>>>>>>> two. After the
>>>>>>> air shot, the ball is lying on a movable obstruction (the tee
>>>>>>> peg) and the
>>>>>>> player is entitled to proceed under 24-1, with the teeing ground
>>>>>>> now being
>>>>>>> through the green.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ooh, a nice sneaky quiz question.
>>>>>>
>>>>> ....and a sneaky but incorrect assertion. This is an old
>>>>> chestnut.....and relies on the equity allowance contained in
>>>>> Decision 25-2/8. However, a tee remains a tee while it is being
>>>>> used as a tee (ie to raise the ball off the ground)....and while
>>>>> being used as such it is part of the player's own equipment and
>>>>> being used for the purpose intended. A player would not be
>>>>> entitled to seek 'relief' from this situation, as is contemplated
>>>>> in Decision 25-2/8. In purposely lifting his ball (in play) and
>>>>> then dropping and playing it from the teeing ground this player
>>>>> has effectively proceeded under stroke and distance (see Rule
>>>>> 20-5),and is deemed to have taken a Rule 27-1 drop. ("....Except
>>>>> as otherwise provided in the Rules, if a player makes a stroke at
>>>>> a ball from the spot at which the original ball was last played,
>>>>> he is deemed to have proceeded under penalty of stroke and
>>>>> distance...").
>>>>>
>>>>> After making the stroke the player would be lying three (not two)!
>>>>>
>>>>> cheers
>>>>> david
>>>> Sorry David,
>>>>
>>>> It isn't an incorrect assertion or a chestnut, old or new. It is a
>>>> recent USGA ruling that was discussed at an RCGA level four Rules
>>>> seminar that I attended in May.
>>
>> John,
>>
>> The reference to an 'old chestnut' is the notion that the teeing
>> ground of the hole being played becomes 'through the green' after a
>> player has put his ball in play. This is quite incorrect, it was a
>> notion some years ago and if I recall correctly was argued in
>> connection with the old procedure of dropping a ball behind you over
>> your shoulder, where, in a particular case, the ball rolled back onto
>> the teeing ground. This concern was eventually dispelled, and
>> unfortunately I don't have a reference for it. Johnty may be familiar
>> with the episode.
>>
>> As to the 'recent USGA ruling', is there a reference to this.......we
>> here usually have immediate access to all USGA rulings.....and I'm
>> afraid I don't see it anywhere. My inquiries through our own
>> association and in discussions with fellow national level ROs suggest
>> that the answer in Decision 18-2a/1 is unequivocal, you move the
>> ball...you get penalised.
>>
>> I will continue to chase this down.
> 
> "we here usually have immediate access to all USGA rulings"
> 
> Really?  What does 'here' refer to in that sentence (uk.sport.golf,
> Australia, something else)?
> 


Victorian Golf Association and Golf Australia...I work for both as a 
State Accredited Rules Official, at both State and National level.

(Golf Australia is the R&A delegated ruling body for amateur golf in 
Australia, the Victorian Golf Association is the sub-delegate 
responsible for amateur golf in the state of Victoria.).

cheers
david

"david s-a"  wrote in message 
news:6d53fcFtne9U1@mid.individual.net...
> John Turner wrote:
>> "John Turner"  wrote in message 
>> news:fWtak.26124$j7.470336@news.indigo.ie...
>>> "david s-a"  wrote in message 
>>> news:6ctadoF3i1tkuU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>> johnty wrote:
>>>>> On 29 Jun, 12:11, "John Turner"  wrote:
>>>>>> "Thomopac"  wrote in message
>>>>>>
>>>>>> news:kPydndoqEdCsB_vVnZ2dnUVZ8rOdnZ2d@eclipse.net.uk...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> A player on a the teeing ground tees his ball up takes a swing but 
>>>>>>> it is an
>>>>>>> air shot, he then moves his ball and tee.
>>>>>>> what is the penalty and ruling please?
>>>>>> Interestingly, if the player after the air shot, lifted his ball and
>>>>>> tee-peg, discarded the tee-peg, dropped the ball as near as possible 
>>>>>> to
>>>>>> where it lay on the tee-peg and then played a stroke at the ball 
>>>>>> lying on
>>>>>> the ground, he would not incur a penalty and would be lying two. 
>>>>>> After the
>>>>>> air shot, the ball is lying on a movable obstruction (the tee peg) 
>>>>>> and the
>>>>>> player is entitled to proceed under 24-1, with the teeing ground now 
>>>>>> being
>>>>>> through the green.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Ooh, a nice sneaky quiz question.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>> ....and a sneaky but incorrect assertion. This is an old 
>>>> chestnut.....and relies on the equity allowance contained in Decision 
>>>> 25-2/8. However, a tee remains a tee while it is being used as a tee 
>>>> (ie to raise the ball off the ground)....and while being used as such 
>>>> it is part of the player's own equipment and being used for the purpose 
>>>> intended. A player would not be entitled to seek 'relief' from this 
>>>> situation, as is contemplated in Decision 25-2/8. In purposely lifting 
>>>> his ball (in play) and then dropping and playing it from the teeing 
>>>> ground this player has effectively proceeded under stroke and distance 
>>>> (see Rule 20-5),and is deemed to have taken a Rule 27-1 drop. 
>>>> ("....Except as otherwise provided in the Rules, if a player makes a 
>>>> stroke at a ball from the spot at which the original ball was last 
>>>> played, he is deemed to have proceeded under penalty of stroke and 
>>>> distance...").
>>>>
>>>> After making the stroke the player would be lying three (not two)!
>>>>
>>>> cheers
>>>> david
>>> Sorry David,
>>>
>>> It isn't an incorrect assertion or a chestnut, old or new. It is a 
>>> recent USGA ruling that was discussed at an RCGA level four Rules 
>>> seminar that I attended in May.
>>
>
>
> John,
>
> The reference to an 'old chestnut' is the notion that the teeing ground of 
> the hole being played becomes 'through the green' after a player has put 
> his ball in play. This is quite incorrect, it was a notion some years ago 
> and if I recall correctly was argued in connection with the old procedure 
> of dropping a ball behind you over your shoulder, where, in a particular 
> case, the ball rolled back onto the teeing ground. This concern was 
> eventually dispelled, and unfortunately I don't have a reference for it. 
> Johnty may be familiar with the episode.
>
> As to the 'recent USGA ruling', is there a reference to this.......we here 
> usually have immediate access to all USGA rulings.....and I'm afraid I 
> don't see it anywhere. My inquiries through our own association and in 
> discussions with fellow national level ROs suggest that the answer in 
> Decision 18-2a/1 is unequivocal, you move the ball...you get penalised.
>
> I will continue to chase this down.
>
> cheers
> david

David

With reference to your chestnut; I do not assert that after the tee shot the 
teeing ground becomes through the green. However, I do assert that, as 
clearly stated in Decision 25-2/8, the player would proceed under 24-1b 
through the green.

I'm sorry you cannot find any reference to the recent USGA ruling. At the 
RCGA Level Four Rules workshop, the ruling was presented to the audience by 
the top rules official in Canada, and Canada after all has a seat at the 
JRC. So I believe it to be correct even if you can't find it. I shall be 
officiating at the Canadian Senior Championship in September, and of course 
the gentleman will be Rules Chair for that event. I will see what additional 
info I can obtain.

Cheers

JohnT

On 4 Jul, 00:51, Phil Kyle 
wrote:

>
> > Do you recall Day 2's question?  [below, don't peek]
>
>
> > (What is the only Decision that does not have a letter 'a'
> > or 'e' in its title?)
>


One?  I can list half a dozen

Oops, mis-read the question.  No I can't!

"Phil Kyle"  wrote in message 
news:bazprpusf04.fsf@alpha.luckytrout.com...
> Phil Kyle  writes:
>
>> Peter Strauss  writes:
>>
>> > On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 21:08:23 +0100, "Thomopac"
>> >  wrote:
>> >
>> > > A player on a the teeing ground tees his ball up takes a swing but it 
>> > > is an
>> > > air shot, he then moves his ball and tee.
>> > > what is the penalty and ruling please?
>> >
>> > See 18-2a/1.  Player Who Misses Tee Shot Tees Ball Lower Before Making
>> > Next Stroke
>> > Q. A player playing from the teeing ground misses the ball completely.
>> > He pushes his tee further into the ground and plays. What is the
>> > ruling?
>> >
>> > A. When the player made a stroke, the ball was in play (see Definition
>> > of "Ball in Play"). By pushing the tee further into the ground, he
>> > moved the ball and incurred a penalty of one stroke under Rule 18-2a
>> > and was required to replace it. However, when the player made a stroke
>> > at the ball without replacing it, he played under penalty of stroke
>> > and distance (see Rule 27-1a). This procedure overrides Rule 18-2a
>> > and, therefore, the penalty under Rule 18-2a does not apply. (Revised)
>> >
>> > So, his air shot is #1.
>> > Stroke and distance penalty is #2.
>> > Shot is #3.
>> >
>> > It's the same as if he'd parked his first shot out of bounds.
>>
>> Peter, don't you recall that your USGA workshop instructor
>> (in 2006) used this same brain-teaser after the first
>> day's session?
>
> Oops, that was 2007 (not 2006).
>
>
>> Tsk, tsk, I'm sure that he would not be pleased to know
>> that you weren't paying full attention.
>>
>> Do you recall Day 2's question?  [below, don't peek]
>>
>> -- 
>> --------------\              /--------------
>>               +\    Phil    /+
>>               ++++++++++++++++
>>               +/    Kyle    \+
>> --------------/              \--------------
>>
>> (What is the only Decision that does not have a letter 'a'
>> or 'e' in its title?)
>

23/4

You just know where to look

Malcolm

"John Turner"  wrote in message 
news:P09bk.26169$j7.470410@news.indigo.ie...
>
> "John Turner"  wrote in message 
> news:fWtak.26124$j7.470336@news.indigo.ie...
>>
>>
>> It isn't an incorrect assertion or a chestnut, old or new. It is a recent 
>> USGA ruling that was discussed at an RCGA level four Rules seminar that I 
>> attended in May.
>
> I get the feeling that my post of July 1st, in answer to Davids spippy and 
> incorrect response to my original post, isn't showing up on most peoples 
> systems. Is this true?
>
> JohnT
>
I didn't see it either.

Malcolm

david s-a wrote:
> Phil Kyle wrote:
>> david s-a  writes:
>>[clipped detail]

>>>
>>> "we here usually have immediate access to all USGA rulings"
>>>

>> Really?  What does 'here' refer to in that sentence (uk.sport.golf,
>> Australia, something else)?
>>
> 
> Victorian Golf Association and Golf Australia...I work for both as a 
> State Accredited Rules Official, at both State and National level.
> 
> (Golf Australia is the R&A delegated ruling body for amateur golf in 
> Australia, the Victorian Golf Association is the sub-delegate 
> responsible for amateur golf in the state of Victoria.).
> 
> cheers
> david

So there!

;-)

david s-a  writes:

> Phil Kyle wrote:
> > david s-a  writes:
> >
> >> John Turner wrote:
> >>> "John Turner"  wrote in message
> >>> news:fWtak.26124$j7.470336@news.indigo.ie...
> >>>> "david s-a"  wrote in message
> >>>> news:6ctadoF3i1tkuU1@mid.individual.net...
> >>>>> johnty wrote:
> >>>>>> On 29 Jun, 12:11, "John Turner"  wrote:
> >>>>>>> "Thomopac"  wrote in message
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>> news:kPydndoqEdCsB_vVnZ2dnUVZ8rOdnZ2d@eclipse.net.uk...
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>>>> A player on a the teeing ground tees his ball up takes a swing
> >>>>>>>> but it is an
> >>>>>>>> air shot, he then moves his ball and tee.
> >>>>>>>> what is the penalty and ruling please?
> >>>>>>> Interestingly, if the player after the air shot, lifted his ball and
> >>>>>>> tee-peg, discarded the tee-peg, dropped the ball as near as possible to
> >>>>>>> where it lay on the tee-peg and then played a stroke at the ball
> >>>>>>> lying on
> >>>>>>> the ground, he would not incur a penalty and would be lying
> >>>>>>> two. After the
> >>>>>>> air shot, the ball is lying on a movable obstruction (the tee
> >>>>>>> peg) and the
> >>>>>>> player is entitled to proceed under 24-1, with the teeing ground
> >>>>>>> now being
> >>>>>>> through the green.
> >>>>>>>
> >>>>>> Ooh, a nice sneaky quiz question.
> >>>>>>
> >>>>> ....and a sneaky but incorrect assertion. This is an old
> >>>>> chestnut.....and relies on the equity allowance contained in
> >>>>> Decision 25-2/8. However, a tee remains a tee while it is being
> >>>>> used as a tee (ie to raise the ball off the ground)....and while
> >>>>> being used as such it is part of the player's own equipment and
> >>>>> being used for the purpose intended. A player would not be
> >>>>> entitled to seek 'relief' from this situation, as is contemplated
> >>>>> in Decision 25-2/8. In purposely lifting his ball (in play) and
> >>>>> then dropping and playing it from the teeing ground this player
> >>>>> has effectively proceeded under stroke and distance (see Rule
> >>>>> 20-5),and is deemed to have taken a Rule 27-1 drop. ("....Except
> >>>>> as otherwise provided in the Rules, if a player makes a stroke at
> >>>>> a ball from the spot at which the original ball was last played,
> >>>>> he is deemed to have proceeded under penalty of stroke and
> >>>>> distance...").
> >>>>>
> >>>>> After making the stroke the player would be lying three (not two)!
> >>>>>
> >>>>> cheers
> >>>>> david
> >>>> Sorry David,
> >>>>
> >>>> It isn't an incorrect assertion or a chestnut, old or new. It is a
> >>>> recent USGA ruling that was discussed at an RCGA level four Rules
> >>>> seminar that I attended in May.
> >>
> >> John,
> >>
> >> The reference to an 'old chestnut' is the notion that the teeing
> >> ground of the hole being played becomes 'through the green' after a
> >> player has put his ball in play. This is quite incorrect, it was a
> >> notion some years ago and if I recall correctly was argued in
> >> connection with the old procedure of dropping a ball behind you over
> >> your shoulder, where, in a particular case, the ball rolled back onto
> >> the teeing ground. This concern was eventually dispelled, and
> >> unfortunately I don't have a reference for it. Johnty may be familiar
> >> with the episode.
> >>
> >> As to the 'recent USGA ruling', is there a reference to this.......we
> >> here usually have immediate access to all USGA rulings.....and I'm
> >> afraid I don't see it anywhere. My inquiries through our own
> >> association and in discussions with fellow national level ROs suggest
> >> that the answer in Decision 18-2a/1 is unequivocal, you move the
> >> ball...you get penalised.
> >>
> >> I will continue to chase this down.
> > "we here usually have immediate access to all USGA rulings"
> > Really?  What does 'here' refer to in that sentence (uk.sport.golf,
> > Australia, something else)?
> >
> 
> 
> Victorian Golf Association and Golf Australia...I work for both as a
> State Accredited Rules Official, at both State and National level.
> 
> (Golf Australia is the R&A delegated ruling body for amateur golf in
> Australia, the Victorian Golf Association is the sub-delegate
> responsible for amateur golf in the state of Victoria.).

I am aware of your experience.  But, how does that lead to
"immediate access to all USGA rulings"?

Does the USGA Rules of Golf Committee send you (VGA, Golf Australia)
copies of their meeting minutes?

-- 
--------------\              /--------------
              +\    Phil    /+ 
              ++++++++++++++++
              +/    Kyle    \+ 
--------------/              \--------------

John Turner wrote:
> "david s-a"  wrote in message 
> news:6d53fcFtne9U1@mid.individual.net...
>> John Turner wrote:
>>> "John Turner"  wrote in message 
>>> news:fWtak.26124$j7.470336@news.indigo.ie...
>>>> "david s-a"  wrote in message 
>>>> news:6ctadoF3i1tkuU1@mid.individual.net...
>>>>> johnty wrote:
>>>>>> On 29 Jun, 12:11, "John Turner"  wrote:
>>>>>>> "Thomopac"  wrote in message
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> news:kPydndoqEdCsB_vVnZ2dnUVZ8rOdnZ2d@eclipse.net.uk...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> A player on a the teeing ground tees his ball up takes a swing but 
>>>>>>>> it is an
>>>>>>>> air shot, he then moves his ball and tee.
>>>>>>>> what is the penalty and ruling please?
>>>>>>> Interestingly, if the player after the air shot, lifted his ball and
>>>>>>> tee-peg, discarded the tee-peg, dropped the ball as near as possible 
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> where it lay on the tee-peg and then played a stroke at the ball 
>>>>>>> lying on
>>>>>>> the ground, he would not incur a penalty and would be lying two. 
>>>>>>> After the
>>>>>>> air shot, the ball is lying on a movable obstruction (the tee peg) 
>>>>>>> and the
>>>>>>> player is entitled to proceed under 24-1, with the teeing ground now 
>>>>>>> being
>>>>>>> through the green.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Ooh, a nice sneaky quiz question.
>>>>>>
>>>>> ....and a sneaky but incorrect assertion. This is an old 
>>>>> chestnut.....and relies on the equity allowance contained in Decision 
>>>>> 25-2/8. However, a tee remains a tee while it is being used as a tee 
>>>>> (ie to raise the ball off the ground)....and while being used as such 
>>>>> it is part of the player's own equipment and being used for the purpose 
>>>>> intended. A player would not be entitled to seek 'relief' from this 
>>>>> situation, as is contemplated in Decision 25-2/8. In purposely lifting 
>>>>> his ball (in play) and then dropping and playing it from the teeing 
>>>>> ground this player has effectively proceeded under stroke and distance 
>>>>> (see Rule 20-5),and is deemed to have taken a Rule 27-1 drop. 
>>>>> ("....Except as otherwise provided in the Rules, if a player makes a 
>>>>> stroke at a ball from the spot at which the original ball was last 
>>>>> played, he is deemed to have proceeded under penalty of stroke and 
>>>>> distance...").
>>>>>
>>>>> After making the stroke the player would be lying three (not two)!
>>>>>
>>>>> cheers
>>>>> david
>>>> Sorry David,
>>>>
>>>> It isn't an incorrect assertion or a chestnut, old or new. It is a 
>>>> recent USGA ruling that was discussed at an RCGA level four Rules 
>>>> seminar that I attended in May.
>>
>> John,
>>
>> The reference to an 'old chestnut' is the notion that the teeing ground of 
>> the hole being played becomes 'through the green' after a player has put 
>> his ball in play. This is quite incorrect, it was a notion some years ago 
>> and if I recall correctly was argued in connection with the old procedure 
>> of dropping a ball behind you over your shoulder, where, in a particular 
>> case, the ball rolled back onto the teeing ground. This concern was 
>> eventually dispelled, and unfortunately I don't have a reference for it. 
>> Johnty may be familiar with the episode.
>>
>> As to the 'recent USGA ruling', is there a reference to this.......we here 
>> usually have immediate access to all USGA rulings.....and I'm afraid I 
>> don't see it anywhere. My inquiries through our own association and in 
>> discussions with fellow national level ROs suggest that the answer in 
>> Decision 18-2a/1 is unequivocal, you move the ball...you get penalised.
>>
>> I will continue to chase this down.
>>
>> cheers
>> david
> 
> David
> 
> With reference to your chestnut; I do not assert that after the tee shot the 
> teeing ground becomes through the green. However, I do assert that, as 
> clearly stated in Decision 25-2/8, the player would proceed under 24-1b 
> through the green.
> 
> I'm sorry you cannot find any reference to the recent USGA ruling. At the 
> RCGA Level Four Rules workshop, the ruling was presented to the audience by 
> the top rules official in Canada, and Canada after all has a seat at the 
> JRC. So I believe it to be correct even if you can't find it. I shall be 
> officiating at the Canadian Senior Championship in September, and of course 
> the gentleman will be Rules Chair for that event. I will see what additional 
> info I can obtain.
> 
> Cheers
> 
> JohnT 
> 
> 


John,

That would be useful, there are a number of people here who would be 
interested, certainly the VGA and GA...and this would resolve lingering 
doubts.

I'm wondering whether this might have been a Ruling/Decision relevant to 
USGA only.....there used to be (still is?) a whole section of those 
limited scope rulings.

Many thanks
David

Durram wrote:
> david s-a wrote:
>> Phil Kyle wrote:
>>> david s-a  writes:
>>> [clipped detail]
> 
>>>>
>>>> "we here usually have immediate access to all USGA rulings"
>>>>
> 
>>> Really?  What does 'here' refer to in that sentence (uk.sport.golf,
>>> Australia, something else)?
>>>
>>
>> Victorian Golf Association and Golf Australia...I work for both as a 
>> State Accredited Rules Official, at both State and National level.
>>
>> (Golf Australia is the R&A delegated ruling body for amateur golf in 
>> Australia, the Victorian Golf Association is the sub-delegate 
>> responsible for amateur golf in the state of Victoria.).
>>
>> cheers
>> david
> 
> So there!
> 
> ;-)


LOL!!

You don't, by any chance, come from my birthplace, Leeds, do you? You 
exude a familiar sense of humour.

:-)

cheers
david

david s-a wrote:
> Durram wrote:
>> david s-a wrote:
>>> Phil Kyle wrote:
>>>> david s-a  writes:
>>>> [clipped detail]
>>
>>>>>
>>>>> "we here usually have immediate access to all USGA rulings"
>>>>>
>>
>>>> Really?  What does 'here' refer to in that sentence (uk.sport.golf,
>>>> Australia, something else)?
>>>>
>>>
>>> Victorian Golf Association and Golf Australia...I work for both as a 
>>> State Accredited Rules Official, at both State and National level.
>>>
>>> (Golf Australia is the R&A delegated ruling body for amateur golf in 
>>> Australia, the Victorian Golf Association is the sub-delegate 
>>> responsible for amateur golf in the state of Victoria.).
>>>
>>> cheers
>>> david
>>
>> So there!
>>
>> ;-)
> 
> 
> LOL!!
> 
> You don't, by any chance, come from my birthplace, Leeds, do you? You 
> exude a familiar sense of humour.
> 
> :-)
> 
> cheers
> david

Indeed. Didn't realise it was that noticeable!

On 03 Jul 2008 19:38:00 -0400, Phil Kyle
 wrote:

> Peter Strauss  writes:
> 
> > On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 21:08:23 +0100, "Thomopac"
> >  wrote:
> > 
> > > A player on a the teeing ground tees his ball up takes a swing but it is an 
> > > air shot, he then moves his ball and tee.
> > > what is the penalty and ruling please? 
> > 
> > See 18-2a/1.  Player Who Misses Tee Shot Tees Ball Lower Before Making
> > Next Stroke
> > Q. A player playing from the teeing ground misses the ball completely.
> > He pushes his tee further into the ground and plays. What is the
> > ruling?
> > 
> > A. When the player made a stroke, the ball was in play (see Definition
> > of “Ball in Play”). By pushing the tee further into the ground, he
> > moved the ball and incurred a penalty of one stroke under Rule 18-2a
> > and was required to replace it. However, when the player made a stroke
> > at the ball without replacing it, he played under penalty of stroke
> > and distance (see Rule 27-1a). This procedure overrides Rule 18-2a
> > and, therefore, the penalty under Rule 18-2a does not apply. (Revised)
> > 
> > So, his air shot is #1.
> > Stroke and distance penalty is #2.
> > Shot is #3.
> > 
> > It's the same as if he'd parked his first shot out of bounds.
> 
> Peter, don't you recall that your USGA workshop instructor
> (in 2006) used this same brain-teaser after the first
> day's session?
> 
> Tsk, tsk, I'm sure that he would not be pleased to know
> that you weren't paying full attention.
> 
> Do you recall Day 2's question?  [below, don't peek]

Of COURSE I was paying full attention.
I just don't remember any of it now.

p.