Hello everybody,

while reading the rules I stumble over something which seems contradictory:
RoG 8-1 and the definition of "advice" inhibit "any counsel or suggestion
that could influence a player in determining his play [...]"
while RoG 8-2 a explicitly says:
"Except on the putting green, a player may have the line of play indicated
to him by anyone, [...]"

By definition, "The "line of play" is the direction that the player wishes
his ball to take after a stroke, [...]"

I would read this as the permission to ask for or to indicate the line of
play to fellow competitors or opponents through the green, e.g. 

Q: "To which direction should I shoot?"
A: "The best line is to play just left from that tree."

would be legal though I've interpreted this as an illegal advice until now.

OTOH, the information "play close to that bunker" would include advice on
the length of a shot and thus be illegal.

Any comments?

Ciao,

Paul

Paul Schmitz-Josten wrote:
> Hello everybody,
> 

> while RoG 8-2 a explicitly says:
> "Except on the putting green, a player may have the line of play indicated
> to him by anyone, [...]"
> 
Paul,

Perfectly legal provided nothing is done to actually mark the line of play.

A situation I ruled on a few years ago; a player, in the wrong fairway, 
had his line of play indicated to him by a fellow competitor (on the 
correct fairway) who had positioned himself on the recommended line. 
This was a mighty hilly sand-dune course and the player could not 
actually see the green from where he was. Player then walked forward, 
quite some distance, up the hill with his buggy and parked it next to 
the fellow competitor who then moved on to his own ball. Player then 
chose his club based on his observation of the green and returned down 
the hill, and played his ball accordingly. I was observing this from 
some distance...so you can imagine the player's distress when I turned 
up out of the blue and 'gifted' him his penalty (for "marking his line")!

I would have thought "play close to that bunker' would be interpreted as 
simply an indication of the line, it is hard to imagine a recommendation 
to 'lay up' close to a bunker, which I would consider a very risky 
strategy indeed! (This would guarantee that I play into it!)

However, Paul, you may be relieved to learn that the current issue 
(2008) of the 'Rules of Golf' no longer considers exchange of 'distance' 
information to be 'advice'(see revised Definition of 
'advice'..."Information on the Rules, distance or matters of public 
information such as the position of hazards or the flagstick on the 
putting green, is not advice...")

cheers
david

david s-a in :

(RoG 8-2 a:)
>> "Except on the putting green, a player may have the line of play indicated
>> to him by anyone, [...]"
>> 
>Paul,
>
>Perfectly legal provided nothing is done to actually mark the line of play.

(example snipped)
Thank you for your quick confirmation. Your example shows that such advice
might be neccessary to continue the play of a hole - otherwise a player
might be Lost On Mars.

>I would have thought "play close to that bunker' would be interpreted as 
>simply an indication of the line, it is hard to imagine a recommendation 
>to 'lay up' close to a bunker, which I would consider a very risky 
>strategy indeed! (This would guarantee that I play into it!)

Not if you understand it as "short of the bunker". Plus, this was an
imaginary example - insert any other landmark which might be 
less dangerous ;-y

OTOH, I had the "play along the trees" situation recently in a friendly
game on an unknown course, standing over a blind second shot on the closing
Par 5. The answer spared me a walk to the top of the hill and included some
local knowledge about the slope of the hidden fairway. I then thought 
"in a tournament you would not have been able to ask" which now proves
wrong.
(Had a marvellously misdirected third shot which only arrived on the green
thanks to a banked curve at the green's back side - "good local knowledge"
for a stranger ;-> plus a finish with an unexpected Par)

>However, Paul, you may be relieved to learn that the current issue 
>(2008) of the 'Rules of Golf' no longer considers exchange of 'distance' 
>information to be 'advice'(see revised Definition of 
>'advice'..."Information on the Rules, distance or matters of public 
>information such as the position of hazards or the flagstick on the 
>putting green, is not advice...")

I know, though I never understood why advice on the distance to the flag
should be illegal, other than the distance to other objects. 
Alas, this is history...

I understand now that "play along the trees, the distance to that bunker is
130 m" is legal though it might include the illegal advice "lay up short of
the bunker".

Ciao,

Paul

"Paul Schmitz-Josten"  wrote in message 
news:g0mjgd$fd8$01$1@news.t-online.com...
> david s-a in :
>
> (RoG 8-2 a:)
>>> "Except on the putting green, a player may have the line of play 
>>> indicated
>>> to him by anyone, [...]"
>>>
>>Paul,
>>
>>Perfectly legal provided nothing is done to actually mark the line of 
>>play.
>
> (example snipped)
> Thank you for your quick confirmation. Your example shows that such advice
> might be neccessary to continue the play of a hole - otherwise a player
> might be Lost On Mars.
>
>>I would have thought "play close to that bunker' would be interpreted as
>>simply an indication of the line, it is hard to imagine a recommendation
>>to 'lay up' close to a bunker, which I would consider a very risky
>>strategy indeed! (This would guarantee that I play into it!)
>
> Not if you understand it as "short of the bunker". Plus, this was an
> imaginary example - insert any other landmark which might be
> less dangerous ;-y
>
> OTOH, I had the "play along the trees" situation recently in a friendly
> game on an unknown course, standing over a blind second shot on the 
> closing
> Par 5. The answer spared me a walk to the top of the hill and included 
> some
> local knowledge about the slope of the hidden fairway. I then thought
> "in a tournament you would not have been able to ask" which now proves
> wrong.
> (Had a marvellously misdirected third shot which only arrived on the green
> thanks to a banked curve at the green's back side - "good local knowledge"
> for a stranger ;-> plus a finish with an unexpected Par)
>
>>However, Paul, you may be relieved to learn that the current issue
>>(2008) of the 'Rules of Golf' no longer considers exchange of 'distance'
>>information to be 'advice'(see revised Definition of
>>'advice'..."Information on the Rules, distance or matters of public
>>information such as the position of hazards or the flagstick on the
>>putting green, is not advice...")
>
> I know, though I never understood why advice on the distance to the flag
> should be illegal, other than the distance to other objects.
> Alas, this is history...
>
> I understand now that "play along the trees, the distance to that bunker 
> is
> 130 m" is legal though it might include the illegal advice "lay up short 
> of
> the bunker".
>
> Ciao,
>
> Paul

Then you have to consider: (a) if the shot is to a blind fairway, is it ok 
for the fellow competitor to say that the fairway is over the end of that 
path? - answer yes it is, then (b) if the shot is to a blind fairway, is it 
ok for the fellow competitor to say that the line to the fairway, allowing 
for this wind, is over the end of that path? - answer should be no.

How many people would be happy to play over the end of the path in scenario 
(a) only to find out that the fellow competitor had factored in the wind, 
even though he shouldn't, and they themselves had factored in the wind 
again?

JohnT

John Turner in <4aEXj.25470$j7.469243@news.indigo.ie>:

>> I understand now that "play along the trees, the distance to that bunker 
>> is
>> 130 m" is legal though it might include the illegal advice "lay up short 
>> of
>> the bunker".

>Then you have to consider: (a) if the shot is to a blind fairway, is it ok 
>for the fellow competitor to say that the fairway is over the end of that 
>path? - answer yes it is, then (b) if the shot is to a blind fairway, is it 
>ok for the fellow competitor to say that the line to the fairway, allowing 
>for this wind, is over the end of that path? - answer should be no.

Agreed.
In b), he might say "the distance to the fairway is 140 yds in this
direction and 180 yds if you aim further right" which would leave the
choice of the stroke to the player.

>How many people would be happy to play over the end of the path in scenario 
>(a) only to find out that the fellow competitor had factored in the wind, 
>even though he shouldn't, and they themselves had factored in the wind 
>again?

Without further advice than the direction I'd say that it's up to the
player to decide which length to play - the "end of a crossing path" being
a distinct point (distance subject to legal advice) whiile the "end of a
longitudinal path" less precise plus out of sight, presumably.

Ciao,

Paul

"Paul Schmitz-Josten"  wrote in message 
news:g0pg8s$us$03$2@news.t-online.com...
> John Turner in <4aEXj.25470$j7.469243@news.indigo.ie>:
>
Paul,
Your question fascinated me as I remember a long debate some time ago on the 
Leith Society  website as to what was meant by indicating the line of play 
when the line is what the player intends, so if he has a line of play, he 
does not need telling!
I can think of a hole which is flat, yet it can be played several different 
ways, depending on the hole position:
- Lay up before the cross bunkers;
- take on the cross bunkers;
- play to the left of the cross bunkers;
- play to the next fairway and come into the green from there.

There was a school of thought that a player could only be given information 
as to the topography or geography of the hole, but I have just spent (or 
wasted, depending how one looks at it) a couple of hours delving into the 
history of Advice and Line of play, thanks to Johnty's website 
www.ruleshistory.com .

As David and John have clearly indicated, one can do more than tell the 
player - "The green is in that direction."  One can indicate an appropriate 
line of play.  You and John have hightlighted the dangers however, and I 
would like to see the Rule restricting th einformation to public 
information - i.e. geography of the hole - leaving th eplayer, with that 
knowledge, to determine his own line of play.

It is interesting to note that up until 1950, a player could have anyone 
indicate "the position of the hole" but his line of play could only be 
pointed out by his caddie, partner or his partner's caddie.

You need read no further, but I have pasted below a synopsis of the changes 
to advice and line of play.

Regards,
Malcolm


In 1925 the Definition of "advice" was:

" 'Advice' is any counsel or suggestion which could influence a player in 
determining the line of play, in the choice of club, or in the method of 
making a stroke."

In 1933 was added a further paragraph: "Information as to the Rules of Golf 
or information indicating the line to the hole is not considered advice." 
The words "indicating the line to the hole" becomes significant later on.

In 1933 through to 1946, Rule 4-4 (now our 8-2) provided that "A player may 
at any time have the line to the hole indicated to him".

In 1950 the second paragraph was re-worded: "Information indicating the 
position of the hole, or information as to the Rules of Golf or Local Rules 
is not 'advice.'."  The change is significant in that it shows that it was 
deemed not to be advice to indicate "the position of the hole" but it was 
advice to indicate "the line to the hole".  This was backed up by the 
changes to Rule 8 (formerly Rule 4-4) which now showed that anyone could 
indicate where the putting green was but may not indicate the line of play, 
only the player's caddie, his partner or his partner's caddie could do that. 
Rule 8 now read:

"2. Indicating position of the putting green
A player may have the position of the putting green indicated to him by 
anyone.
(For indicating position of the hole - Rule 38,1(i)).

3. Indicating line of play
A player may have the line of play indicated to him, but only by his caddie, 
his partner or his partner's caddie.
No one shall place a mark on, or while the stroke is being made, stand on 
the proposed line of play in order to indicate it."

However, what a "line of  play" was, was not defined until 1992.



In 1952, although the Definition of Advice was not changed, Rule 9 (formerly 
Rule 8) was significantly changed.  Now, not only could anyone indicate the 
position of the putting green but anyone could now indicate the line of 
play.  This left only the line of putt, as it is today, which could only be 
indicated by a player's caddie, his partner or his partner's caddie.



In 1954 the second paragraph of the Definition of Advice was changed again, 
this time removing reference to information indicating the position of the 
hole, because it had become redundant.  The Definition now read:

"2.  Advice
"Advice" is any counsel or suggestion which could influence a player in 
determining his play, the choice of a club, or the method of making a 
stroke.
Information on the Rules or Local Rules is not "advice"."



There were no significant changes in this area of the Rules between 1954 and 
1984.

In 1984 the Rules reorganised to today's numbering and the Definition of 
Advice was enhanced further and so then read:

 "Advice

'Advice' is any counsel or suggestion which could influence a player in 
determining his play, the choice of a club or the method of making a stroke.
Information on the Rules or on matters of public information, such as the 
position of hazards or the flagstick on the putting green, is not advice."

Rule 8 then read much as it does today:

8-1. Advice
Except as provided in Rule 8-2, a player may give advice to or ask advice 
from, only his partner or either of their caddies.

Note: In a team competition without concurrent individual competition, the 
Committee may in the conditions of the competition (Rule 33-1) permit each 
team to appoint one person, e.g., team captain or coach, who may give advice 
to members of that team. Such person shall be identified to the Committee 
prior to the start of the competition.

8-2. Indicating Line of Play
a. Other Than on Putting Green
Except on the putting green, a player may have the line of play indicated to 
him by anyone, but no one shall stand or close to the line while the stroke 
is being played.
Any mark placed during the play of a hole by the player or with his 
knowledge to indicate the line shall be removed before the stroke is played.

Exception: Flagstick attended or held up - see Rule 17-1

b. On the Putting Green  [Formerly 35-1e]
When the player's ball is on the putting green, the player's caddie, his 
partner or his partner's caddie may, before a stroke is played, point out a 
line for putting, but in so doing the putting green shall not be touched in 
front of, to the side of, or behind the hole. No mark shall be placed 
anywhere on the putting green to indicate a line for putting.

PENALTY FOR BREACH OF RULE:
Match play - loss of hole;   Stroke play - Two strokes."



It was not until 1992 that "Line of Play" and "Line of Putt" finally found 
their way into the Definitions but there were no further changes of 
significance to Rule 8.

"008 brought about the change permitting a player to ask and receive 
information as to the distance of his ball to the hole. Up until then, 
information as to distances had been restricted to fixed objects - trees, 
bunkers, the flagstick etc.

"Line of Play

The 'line of play' is the direction which the player wishes his ball to take 
after a stroke, plus a reasonable distance on either side of the intended 
direction. The line of play extends vertically upwards from the ground, but 
does not extend beyond the hole.

Line of Putt

The 'line of putt' is the line which the player wishes his ball to take 
after a stroke on the putting green. Except with respect to Rule 16-1e, the 
line of putt includes a reasonable distance on either side of the intended 
line. The line of putt does not extend beyond the hole. "



From this historical research, it is clear that a player may have pointed 
out to him an appropriate line of play to take and not just the geography of 
the hole.

M L Wadsworth in :

>Paul,
>Your question fascinated me as I remember a long debate some time ago on the 
>Leith Society  website as to what was meant by indicating the line of play 
>when the line is what the player intends, so if he has a line of play, he 
>does not need telling!

<bg>!

Following this, the person giving legal advice on the line of play must be
a thought-reader or even able to predict thoughs.

>I can think of a hole which is flat, yet it can be played several different 
>ways, depending on the hole position:
>- Lay up before the cross bunkers;
>- take on the cross bunkers;
>- play to the left of the cross bunkers;
>- play to the next fairway and come into the green from there.

So, when some long-hitter would give me advice to take on the bunker, 
I'd better be cautious ;->

(I remember a caddie in Morocco telling me to play a 7 iron over some
water, and when the ball became wet he said "a low shot, not a high one!"
- only then I wasn't able to make a difference)

(typos repaired)
>As David and John have clearly indicated, one can do more than tell the 
>player - "The green is in that direction."  One can indicate an appropriate 
>line of play.  You and John have hightlighted the dangers however, and I 
>would like to see the Rule restricting the information to public 
>information - i.e. geography of the hole - leaving the player, with that 
>knowledge, to determine his own line of play.

In our discussion, I, too, saw no clear limit between "line of play" and
"advice on a shot", given that the line may vary depending on the player's
abilities. Therefore, we'd better be reluctant with our advice.

What about the following dialogue?
A: "Your line of play may be towards that bunker."
P. "But I assume that then my ball will get into trouble."
A: "Then another line is to play towards that distant house on the right."

>It is interesting to note that up until 1950, a player could have anyone 
>indicate "the position of the hole" but his line of play could only be 
>pointed out by his caddie, partner or his partner's caddie.
>
>You need read no further, but I have pasted below a synopsis of the changes 
>to advice and line of play.

I read it with interest but have no comments.

Thank you very much for your efforts!

Ciao,

Paul