Today while playing a medal I asked one of the others to attend the
flagstick for a long put, all on the green . He did so but failed to 
remove the stick. The
ball hit same and stopped within a foot and after quietly saying thank
you I putted out.
Who gets penalised.
-- 
Regards Jaygee

On Wed, 07 May 2008 17:47:13 +0100, jaygee  wrote:

>Today while playing a medal I asked one of the others to attend the
>flagstick for a long put, all on the green . He did so but failed to 
>remove the stick. The
>ball hit same and stopped within a foot and after quietly saying thank
>you I putted out.
>Who gets penalised.

You are penalised[1].  See Rule 17-1, Note 2 and Rule 17-3.  

Standard disclaimer applies: In general, I am a fool and thus cannot
be counted upon to provide the correct ruling.  Use my advice at your
own peril.  ;-)  

[1]  Should read "You are penalized" if you are an arrogant, ignorant
resident of the United States and do not understand the subtleties of
spelling outside of the borders of said country.   Again, ;-)  
-- 
jvdp
Nobody fears the Chopra
http://www.rsgcincinnati.com

"jaygee"  wrote in message 
news:q72dnRZcn_uPQLzVnZ2dnUVZ8vmdnZ2d@plusnet...
> Today while playing a medal I asked one of the others to attend the
> flagstick for a long put, all on the green . He did so but failed to 
> remove the stick. The
> ball hit same and stopped within a foot and after quietly saying thank
> you I putted out.
> Who gets penalised.
> -- 
> Regards Jaygee

John is correct.

If your ball in motion after a stroke from the putting green strikes the 
flagstick you incur a penalty of loss of hole or two strokes in stroke play 
(Rule 17-3 c).
If your stroke was played from off the putting green, you incur the penalty 
only if the flagstick had been removed from the hole or was being attended 
or held up with your authority (Rule 17-3a).
You only escape these penalties if the flagstick was attended without your 
authority in which case the person attending it incurs the penalty instead 
(Rule 17-2 Exception and 17-2).

You were correct to play your ball from the place where it came to rest 
after the deflection.

regards,
Malcolm

M L Wadsworth wrote:

> John is correct.
> 
> If your ball in motion after a stroke from the putting green strikes the 
> flagstick you incur a penalty of loss of hole or two strokes in stroke play 
> (Rule 17-3 c).
> If your stroke was played from off the putting green, you incur the penalty 
> only if the flagstick had been removed from the hole or was being attended 
> or held up with your authority (Rule 17-3a).
> You only escape these penalties if the flagstick was attended without your 
> authority in which case the person attending it incurs the penalty instead 
> (Rule 17-2 Exception and 17-2).
> 
> You were correct to play your ball from the place where it came to rest 
> after the deflection.

Thank you gentlemen for your swift replies, not what I wanted to hear 
but I accept your reading.
Seems strange that something I have no control over can attract a two 
shot penalty.
I will just have to explain every time I need the flag attended :-))


-- 
Regards Jaygee

When I attend the flag for another player I make a point of ensuring that it 
is part lifted from the centre of the hole and even on occasion hold it at 
the back of the hole.


"jaygee"  wrote in message 
news:beSdne_tJ9Nbnb_VnZ2dnUVZ8qugnZ2d@plusnet...
>M L Wadsworth wrote:
>
>> John is correct.
>>
>> If your ball in motion after a stroke from the putting green strikes the 
>> flagstick you incur a penalty of loss of hole or two strokes in stroke 
>> play (Rule 17-3 c).
>> If your stroke was played from off the putting green, you incur the 
>> penalty only if the flagstick had been removed from the hole or was being 
>> attended or held up with your authority (Rule 17-3a).
>> You only escape these penalties if the flagstick was attended without 
>> your authority in which case the person attending it incurs the penalty 
>> instead (Rule 17-2 Exception and 17-2).
>>
>> You were correct to play your ball from the place where it came to rest 
>> after the deflection.
>
> Thank you gentlemen for your swift replies, not what I wanted to hear but 
> I accept your reading.
> Seems strange that something I have no control over can attract a two shot 
> penalty.
> I will just have to explain every time I need the flag attended :-))
>
>
> -- 
> Regards Jaygee

Stewart wrote:
> When I attend the flag for another player I make a point of ensuring
> that it is part lifted from the centre of the hole and even on
> occasion hold it at the back of the hole.

This would be normal practise but in this case the gentleman tending the
flag claimed he did not know he was required to remove it from the hole

>> -- Regards Jaygee
> 
>

jaygee in <q72dnRZcn_uPQLzVnZ2dnUVZ8vmdnZ2d@plusnet>:

>Today while playing a medal I asked one of the others to attend the
>flagstick for a long put, all on the green . He did so but failed to 
>remove the stick. The
>ball hit same and stopped within a foot and after quietly saying thank
>you I putted out.
>Who gets penalised.

It depends...

<decision quote>
17-3/2  Opponent or Fellow-Competitor Attending Flagstick for Player Fails
to Remove It; Player’s Ball Strikes
Flagstick

Q. A requests B, his opponent or a fellow-competitor, to attend the
flagstick, and B complies. A putts too firmly and B fails to remove the
flagstick. A’s ball strikes the flagstick. What is the ruling?

A. If B failed to remove the flagstick for the purpose of causing A to
incur a penalty, B is disqualified in both match play and stroke play for a
serious breach of Rule 1-2. In stroke play, in equity (Rule 1-4), A must
replay the stroke without penalty.

If B’s failure to remove the flagstick was for the purpose of preventing
A’s ball from going beyond the flagstick and not for the purpose of causing
A to incur a penalty, in match play B lost the hole under Rule
1-2 when he failed to remove the flagstick before A’s ball reached the
hole. The fact that A’s ball subsequently struck the flagstick (a breach of
Rule 17-3a) is irrelevant since B had already lost the hole. In stroke
play, B incurs a penalty of two strokes under Rule 1-2, and A incurs the
same penalty under Rule 17-3a.

If B’s failure to remove the flagstick was not deliberate, e.g., the
flagstick stuck in the socket or B was distracted and did not see A putt, A
incurs a penalty of loss of hole in match play or two strokes in stroke
play under Rule 17-3. B incurs no penalty.
<unquote>

Ciao,

Paul

On Wed, 7 May 2008 19:37:22 +0100, "M L Wadsworth"
 wrote:

>
>"jaygee"  wrote in message 
>news:q72dnRZcn_uPQLzVnZ2dnUVZ8vmdnZ2d@plusnet...
>> Today while playing a medal I asked one of the others to attend the
>> flagstick for a long put, all on the green . He did so but failed to 
>> remove the stick. The
>> ball hit same and stopped within a foot and after quietly saying thank
>> you I putted out.
>> Who gets penalised.
>> -- 
>> Regards Jaygee
>
>John is correct.

I am saving this email for the rest of my life.  :-)  
-- 
jvdp
Nobody fears the Chopra
http://www.rsgcincinnati.com

On Wed, 07 May 2008 21:20:44 +0100, jaygee  wrote:

>Stewart wrote:
>> When I attend the flag for another player I make a point of ensuring
>> that it is part lifted from the centre of the hole and even on
>> occasion hold it at the back of the hole.
>
>This would be normal practise but in this case the gentleman tending the
>flag claimed he did not know he was required to remove it from the hole

Wow -- that is a new one.  I've never heard that before.  
-- 
jvdp
Nobody fears the Chopra
http://www.rsgcincinnati.com

John van der Pflum wrote:

> [1]  Should read "You are penalized" if you are an arrogant, ignorant
> resident of the United States and do not understand the subtleties of
> spelling outside of the borders of said country.   Again, ;-)  

I don't think you should apologise for regionalisation of spelling 
conventions.

Unless you want a prise for self-deprecation.

-- 
Cheers
Colin Wilson
------------------------------------------------------------------
Trentham Golf Club: http://www.trenthamgolf.com
Barnbougle Dunes: http://publishing.kyneton.net.au/barnbougle
------------------------------------------------------------------

"jaygee"  wrote in message 
news:beSdne_tJ9Nbnb_VnZ2dnUVZ8qugnZ2d@plusnet...
>M L Wadsworth wrote:

> Thank you gentlemen for your swift replies, not what I wanted to hear but 
> I accept your reading.
> Seems strange that something I have no control over can attract a two shot 
> penalty.
> I will just have to explain every time I need the flag attended :-))
>
>
> -- 
> Regards Jaygee

You do have some control - you can choose who attends the flagstick for you!
But why did you have it attended in the first place?

I only have it attended if it is so far away that I just cannot see it from 
my stance and that is fairly rare.

This is particularly true in singles match play since if my opponent attends 
the flagstick for me, he gains quite a lot of helpful knowledge about the 
pace of the green and the borrow - more than he would get from standing to 
the side.

In four-ball match play I never permit an opponent to attend for me - I 
always insist my partner does it.
Sometimes, if it may help my partner with his putt,  I will ask him to 
attend even though I can easily see the hole.

I am amazed that a player have not yet learned how to attend a flagstick. 
Was it his first ever time on a golf course?

Regards,
Malcolm

I have never found in any publication, instructions on how to attend a 
flagstick yet so often one sees it done badly.
When I first started playing golf I vividly remember a round I played with a 
scottish golfer of mature years during which he taught me all the etiquette 
of golf.  I have always been grateful to him and his instruction has 
remained etched in my memory.

Some may be interested in the intructions below, taken from my documentation 
for the Rules School I run from time to time for new golfers:

Malcolm


"Attending a Flagstick

Do not stand within an arms length of the flagstick unless you are about to 
remove it or attend it, otherwise you will be deemed to be attending it.

Only attend for a player if he has no caddie and no partner.

Always check the player wants the flagstick attended.  Some players like the 
flagstick in the hole until they have aligned their putt and then want it 
removed.

Approach the flagstick taking care not to tread on any player’s line of 
putt.

Carefully lift the flagstick from its socket and unless it is required to be 
held up in the air, rest it in the hole but out of the socket, between the 
socket and the ball.

Unless required to hold the flagstick up in the air, gather in the flag with 
the hand that will hold the flagstick so it will not be flapping while the 
player is making his stroke.

Hold the flagstick at arms-length to the side or, if required to hold it up 
in the air, vertically above the hole.

Make sure you are not casting a shadow across the hole or the player’s line 
of play.

Hold the flagstick upright. If it is not possible to hold it upright while 
gathering in the flag or holding it at arms-length, lean it backwards but 
make it appears vertical to the player.

In leaning a flagstick backwards, be careful not to allow it to lean against 
the edge of the hole as it will cause damage.

If carrying a club yourself, there is no penalty if it is touching the 
putting green while you are attending the flagstick but it is prudent not to 
let it do so otherwise you might be thought to be indicating the line of 
putt, particularly if attending for your partner.

Pay full attention to the stroke about to be played.

Stand perfectly still and quiet while the player prepares for and makes his 
stroke.

Once the ball is in motion, remove the flagstick and stand away: don’t wait 
until the ball is near the hole.

Unless the flagstick is required to be re-centred in the hole, lay it down 
gently with the flag under the flagstick so it will not flap, well away from 
all subsequent play of the hole.

When the flagstick is to be re-centred in the hole, take care not to touch 
any part of the putting green around the lip of the hole and make sure the 
flagstick is properly centred and upright with the flag free to fly, before 
walking away."

Oops!

A couple of grammar mistakes - sorry:


> You do have some control - you can choose who attends the flagstick for 
> you!
> But why did you have it attended in the first place?


"it" being the hole not the flagstick!!!


>
> I only have it attended if it is so far away that I just cannot see it 
> from my stance and that is fairly rare.
>
> This is particularly true in singles match play since if my opponent 
> attends the flagstick for me, he gains quite a lot of helpful knowledge 
> about the pace of the green and the borrow - more than he would get from 
> standing to the side.
>
> In four-ball match play I never permit an opponent to attend for me - I 
> always insist my partner does it.
> Sometimes, if it may help my partner with his putt,  I will ask him to 
> attend even though I can easily see the hole.
>
> I am amazed that a player have


"has" not "have"


not yet learned how to attend a flagstick.
> Was it his first ever time on a golf course?
>
> Regards,
> Malcolm
>

M L Wadsworth wrote:

> You do have some control - you can choose who attends the flagstick for you!
> But why did you have it attended in the first place?

I could not see the hole because of the contours of the green and the 
distance.
My intention was to lag up but I hit it a bit  firmly :-)

> I am amazed that a player have not yet learned how to attend a flagstick. 
> Was it his first ever time on a golf course?

No, I think he has been playing for at least a season. It has now been 
explained to him.

-- 
Regards Jaygee

M L Wadsworth wrote:
> I have never found in any publication, instructions on how to attend a 
> flagstick yet so often one sees it done badly.
> When I first started playing golf I vividly remember a round I played with a 
> scottish golfer of mature years during which he taught me all the etiquette 
> of golf.  I have always been grateful to him and his instruction has 
> remained etched in my memory.
> 
> Some may be interested in the intructions below, taken from my documentation 
> for the Rules School I run from time to time for new golfers:
> 
> Malcolm
> 


<snipped>

Malcolm,

If I might add a note to your list.....

If in charge of the flagstick while the rest of the group is holing out, 
do not rest the flagstick on the ground, especially in the vicinity of 
the player's line of putt. In fact do not let the flagstick rest on the 
ground at all, ever! (I often see players actually leaning on the 
flagstick!). Pros and experienced caddies will often invert the 
flagstick while holding it off the ground when others are holing out.

There is a fine line between 'innocently' looking after the flagstick, 
and breaching Rule 8-2b (Indicating Line of Play on the Putting Green).
Any doubt on the matter can only be resolved against the player if the 
person holding the flagstick is his partner or either of their caddies. 
An astute opponent in Matchplay would generally have no difficulty with 
a claim against the player, claimed innocence or not!

cheers
david

david s-a wrote:
> M L Wadsworth wrote:
>> I have never found in any publication, instructions on how to attend a 
>> flagstick yet so often one sees it done badly.
>> When I first started playing golf I vividly remember a round I played 
>> with a scottish golfer of mature years during which he taught me all 
>> the etiquette of golf.  I have always been grateful to him and his 
>> instruction has remained etched in my memory.
>>
>> Some may be interested in the intructions below, taken from my 
>> documentation for the Rules School I run from time to time for new 
>> golfers:
>>
>> Malcolm
>>
> 
> 
> <snipped>
> 
> Malcolm,
> 
> If I might add a note to your list.....
> 
> If in charge of the flagstick while the rest of the group is holing out, 
> do not rest the flagstick on the ground, especially in the vicinity of 
> the player's line of putt. In fact do not let the flagstick rest on the 
> ground at all, ever! (I often see players actually leaning on the 
> flagstick!). Pros and experienced caddies will often invert the 
> flagstick while holding it off the ground when others are holing out.
> 
> There is a fine line between 'innocently' looking after the flagstick, 
> and breaching Rule 8-2b (Indicating Line of Play on the Putting Green).
> Any doubt on the matter can only be resolved against the player if the 
> person holding the flagstick is his partner or either of their caddies. 
> An astute opponent in Matchplay would generally have no difficulty with 
> a claim against the player, claimed innocence or not!
> 
> cheers
> david

Easy enough when you're tootling around in the 'professional' 5 hour 
rounds but during your regular Saturday 4-ball or match play it's better 
to just plonk the flag down, out of the way so it's least likely to be hit.

As for the astuteness of a matchplayer in making spurious accusations 
and pressing them upon an innocent claim I find that debatable. Surely 
one could only go with it after repeated behaviour or other evidence 
like talking to each other during the lining up and standing holding the 
flag process.

In your experience, how often has such a claim been made at all or made 
and upheld, or have just warnings been given?

-- 
Durram

On 7 May, 18:42, John van der Pflum  wrote:
 
>
> [1]  Should read "You are penalized" if you are an arrogant, ignorant
> resident of the United States



That's the correct original spelling.  It was our side that changed.

Demetri (Durram) wrote:

>>
>> There is a fine line between 'innocently' looking after the flagstick, 
>> and breaching Rule 8-2b (Indicating Line of Play on the Putting Green).
>> Any doubt on the matter can only be resolved against the player if the 
>> person holding the flagstick is his partner or either of their 
>> caddies. An astute opponent in Matchplay would generally have no 
>> difficulty with a claim against the player, claimed innocence or not!
>>
>> cheers
>> david
> 
> Easy enough when you're tootling around in the 'professional' 5 hour 
> rounds but during your regular Saturday 4-ball or match play it's better 
> to just plonk the flag down, out of the way so it's least likely to be hit.

Of course!

> 
> As for the astuteness of a matchplayer in making spurious accusations 
> and pressing them upon an innocent claim I find that debatable.

In Pennant Matchplay, which is an extremely competitive interclub 'team' 
event here, spurious accusations are common and although often made 
under a misunderstanding of the rules, necessitating clarification by a 
rules official, some do succeed! The most common one I have found is a 
breach of Rule 14-2b. Although surprisingly this has happened at 
'Senior' and 'Veteran' events this more usually occurs among the lower 
echelons of the Pennant grades and in the Colts divisions, mostly at the 
beginning of the Pennant season. The 'word' soon gets around...and 
detail of the rule soon becomes embedded in these player's minds. Rule 
26-1, the 'Provisional Ball' definition, as well as Rule 27 and its 
general implications, get a fair bit of action as well!

  Surely
> one could only go with it after repeated behaviour or other evidence 
> like talking to each other during the lining up and standing holding the 
> flag process.

In normal competition Matchplay we don't interfere with this...it is up 
to the players themselves to make the claims, and of course a player is 
entitled to 'ignore' a breach if he sees fit. It is only where we have 
been formally appointed as 'referees' (as distinct from 'rules 
officials'), we are obliged to ensure there is no breach of the 
rules....and we will make a ruling if a breach is observed.
> 
> In your experience, how often has such a claim been made at all or made 
> and upheld, or have just warnings been given?
> 

In over twelve years acting at both State and National level I have made 
  a ruling on just two claims on this, but on numerous occasions I have 
had to 'explain' this and many other rules to players while walking up 
the next fairway!

The R&A write rules for this game and expect them to be observed.

cheers
david

johnty wrote:

> That's the correct original spelling.  It was our side that changed.

Microsoft's spell checker is changing us all back. :)

FWIW, the ship that sailed into Port Phillip in 1835 to found Melbourne 
was named the Enterprize (http://www.enterprize.com.au).

-- 
Cheers
Colin Wilson
------------------------------------------------------------------
Trentham Golf Club: http://www.trenthamgolf.com
Barnbougle Dunes: http://publishing.kyneton.net.au/barnbougle
------------------------------------------------------------------

"Colin Wilson"  wrote in message 
news:SC6Vj.9023$ko5.7990@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> johnty wrote:
>
>> That's the correct original spelling.  It was our side that changed.
>
> Microsoft's spell checker is changing us all back. :)
>
> FWIW, the ship that sailed into Port Phillip in 1835 to found Melbourne 
> was named the Enterprize (http://www.enterprize.com.au).
>
> -- 
> Cheers
> Colin Wilson
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> Trentham Golf Club: http://www.trenthamgolf.com
> Barnbougle Dunes: http://publishing.kyneton.net.au/barnbougle
> ------------------------------------------------------------------



......and some people think Hawkestone Park only has one "e" and that is at 
the end, but I have a golf shirt that proves there is also an "e" in the 
middle ;-).

Malcolm

david s-a wrote:
> Demetri (Durram) wrote:
> 
>>>
>>> There is a fine line between 'innocently' looking after the 
>>> flagstick, and breaching Rule 8-2b (Indicating Line of Play on the 
>>> Putting Green).
>>> Any doubt on the matter can only be resolved against the player if 
>>> the person holding the flagstick is his partner or either of their 
>>> caddies. An astute opponent in Matchplay would generally have no 
>>> difficulty with a claim against the player, claimed innocence or not!
>>>
>>> cheers
>>> david
>>
>> Easy enough when you're tootling around in the 'professional' 5 hour 
>> rounds but during your regular Saturday 4-ball or match play it's 
>> better to just plonk the flag down, out of the way so it's least 
>> likely to be hit.
> 
> Of course!
> 
>>
>> As for the astuteness of a matchplayer in making spurious accusations 
>> and pressing them upon an innocent claim I find that debatable.
> 
> In Pennant Matchplay, which is an extremely competitive interclub 'team' 
> event here, spurious accusations are common and although often made 
> under a misunderstanding of the rules, necessitating clarification by a 
> rules official, some do succeed! The most common one I have found is a 
> breach of Rule 14-2b. Although surprisingly this has happened at 
> 'Senior' and 'Veteran' events this more usually occurs among the lower 
> echelons of the Pennant grades and in the Colts divisions, mostly at the 
> beginning of the Pennant season. The 'word' soon gets around...and 
> detail of the rule soon becomes embedded in these player's minds. Rule 
> 26-1, the 'Provisional Ball' definition, as well as Rule 27 and its 
> general implications, get a fair bit of action as well!
> 
>  Surely
>> one could only go with it after repeated behaviour or other evidence 
>> like talking to each other during the lining up and standing holding 
>> the flag process.
> 
> In normal competition Matchplay we don't interfere with this...it is up 
> to the players themselves to make the claims, and of course a player is 
> entitled to 'ignore' a breach if he sees fit. It is only where we have 
> been formally appointed as 'referees' (as distinct from 'rules 
> officials'), we are obliged to ensure there is no breach of the 
> rules....and we will make a ruling if a breach is observed.
>>
>> In your experience, how often has such a claim been made at all or 
>> made and upheld, or have just warnings been given?
>>
> 
> In over twelve years acting at both State and National level I have made 
>  a ruling on just two claims on this, but on numerous occasions I have 
> had to 'explain' this and many other rules to players while walking up 
> the next fairway!
> 
> The R&A write rules for this game and expect them to be observed.
> 
> cheers
> david
> 
> 
> 

Interesting stuff from the 'front line', thanks.

Club houses wouldn't be the same without the odd discussion or dispute 
or two and at our club the common bones of contention during our time of 
renewal are Abnormal Ground Conditions, Ground Under Repair and what and 
where is lost as a number of our boundaries have Lateral Water Hazards 
up to the OOB markers!

Great fun
-- 
D

On Sat, 10 May 2008 09:39:12 +0100, Durram (Demetri) said...
> Club houses wouldn't be the same without the odd discussion or dispute 
> or two and at our club the common bones of contention during our time of 
> renewal are Abnormal Ground Conditions, Ground Under Repair and what and 
> where is lost as a number of our boundaries have Lateral Water Hazards 
> up to the OOB markers!

We used to have one of those. Last year the OOB was moved to the in-
course side of the ditch and the LWT was removed. Much less scope for 
argument now!

-- 
Mark Myers
usenet at mcm2007 dot plus dot com
I call that a radical interpretation of the text.