On 15 Oct, 13:40, "marush"  wrote:
> "Demetri (Durram)"  wrote in message
> >
> > Where I can see the problem is where the handicapping unions try to force
> > the issue and mak everybody's life more complicated and the system less
> > workable and understandable consequently making handicapping the domain of
> > the few rather than the many. As the basis of regular amateur golf is
> > handicapping it should be clear not obfuscated by stars lapses and losts
> > which even the 'people who know' (e.g. contributors to this forum) can't
> > even agree upon.
>
> > I've never heard of a discussion more absurd or ridiculous about something
> > so important and fundamental to the way we manage competitive golf. I
> > think the EGU/ELGA has it correct on this one and we should leave well
> > alone and encourage organising competition committies to be rigorous in
> > defining and checking upon entry requirements to stop sandbagging.
>
> It can only be sorted out by the "home" club. To ask any open competition to
> police the validity of handicaps would be a logistical nightmare. All they
> can ask for, as they do, but rarely enforce, is proof of handicap provided
> by the home club.

It would of course be a trivial exercise had the proposed computer
system to which all clubs would have links, gone ahead, as opposed to
getting lost in the mire of clueless global IT solutions providers who
only operate in some strange parallel universe where time and budgets
are limitless.  I forget exactly what has happened (although maybe
Nick Perkins has an idea), but I do recall forecasting doom and gloom
as soon as the shortlist of companies was published.  (I think it
needed sponsors and none were forthcoming.)  It could all be done with
use of the internet, which is hardly asking much (many clubs already
publish data to results services), and I would have imagined that
economies of scale should naturally mean the cost per connected club
ought to be a fraction of what they  have already, in the main,
invested in their own IT equipment, but hey ho, what do us mere
mortals know.

Cynical of Cheshire.

> It would of course be a trivial exercise had the proposed computer
> system to which all clubs would have links, gone ahead, as opposed to
> getting lost in the mire of clueless global IT solutions providers who
> only operate in some strange parallel universe where time and budgets
> are limitless.  I forget exactly what has happened (although maybe
> Nick Perkins has an idea), but I do recall forecasting doom and gloom
> as soon as the shortlist of companies was published.  (I think it
> needed sponsors and none were forthcoming.)  It could all be done with
> use of the internet, which is hardly asking much (many clubs already
> publish data to results services), and I would have imagined that
> economies of scale should naturally mean the cost per connected club
> ought to be a fraction of what they  have already, in the main,
> invested in their own IT equipment, but hey ho, what do us mere
> mortals know.
>
> Cynical of Cheshire.
>

Hi John,

'Central Database of Handicaps' systems remain topical with the GB Golf 
Unions, but alas no progress on this side of the Irish Sea as yet!

-- 
Nick Perkins
HandicapMaster Ltd

"John Laird"  wrote in message 
news:1192489138.840613.146010@e34g2000pro.googlegroups.com...
> On 15 Oct, 22:02, "Nick Perkins"
>  wrote:
>
>> Hi John,
>>
>> 'Central Database of Handicaps' systems remain topical with the GB Golf
>> Unions, but alas no progress on this side of the Irish Sea as yet!
>
> Somehow that is not a surprise ;-)  It could probably be implemented,
> or at least started in a working fashion, by two men and their dog.
> Shouldn't exactly be rocket science these days.
>
> Good to see HandicapMaster doing well, from the looks of your web
> site.  Is this a full-time business for you now ?
>
>

Hi John,

Thanks for your kind words. Yes, HandicapMaster is doing well. We have over 
600 clubs using our CONGU competitions and handicapping software now. We 
think HandicapMaster is the second most widely used CONGU software now.

It is a full time job (with others also employed also!).

Burning the midnight oil getting ready for the 2008 handicapping changes :-(

-- 
Nick Perkins
HandicapMaster Ltd

Nick Perkins wrote:
> 
>> It would of course be a trivial exercise had the proposed computer
>> system to which all clubs would have links, gone ahead, as opposed to
>> getting lost in the mire of clueless global IT solutions providers who
>> only operate in some strange parallel universe where time and budgets
>> are limitless.  I forget exactly what has happened (although maybe
>> Nick Perkins has an idea), but I do recall forecasting doom and gloom
>> as soon as the shortlist of companies was published.  (I think it
>> needed sponsors and none were forthcoming.)  It could all be done with
>> use of the internet, which is hardly asking much (many clubs already
>> publish data to results services), and I would have imagined that
>> economies of scale should naturally mean the cost per connected club
>> ought to be a fraction of what they  have already, in the main,
>> invested in their own IT equipment, but hey ho, what do us mere
>> mortals know.

> 'Central Database of Handicaps' systems remain topical with the GB Golf 
> Unions, but alas no progress on this side of the Irish Sea as yet!

So does the UK have a centralised "national" computerised handicapping 
system, something similar to Australia's GolfLink?

-- 
Cheers
Colin Wilson
------------------------------------------------------------------
Trentham Golf Club: http://www.trenthamgolf.com
Barnbougle Dunes: http://publishing.kyneton.net.au/barnbougle
------------------------------------------------------------------

<snip>
>
>> 'Central Database of Handicaps' systems remain topical with the GB Golf 
>> Unions, but alas no progress on this side of the Irish Sea as yet!
>
> So does the UK have a centralised "national" computerised handicapping 
> system, something similar to Australia's GolfLink?
>
> -- 
> Cheers
> Colin Wilson
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> Trentham Golf Club: http://www.trenthamgolf.com
> Barnbougle Dunes: http://publishing.kyneton.net.au/barnbougle
> ------------------------------------------------------------------


Hi Colin,

Ireland has such a system (www.golfnet.ie), but the UK (more precisely 
England, Scotland and Wales) does not. A few attempts have been made, but 
none have succeeded.

Instead, some commercially run sites have appeared offering similar 
functionality (including one from my own company), although generally these 
are more geared to reporting competition results than pure handicap records.

-- 
Nick Perkins
HandicapMaster Ltd

Nick Perkins wrote:

> Ireland has such a system (www.golfnet.ie), but the UK (more precisely 
> England, Scotland and Wales) does not. A few attempts have been made, 
> but none have succeeded.
> 
> Instead, some commercially run sites have appeared offering similar 
> functionality (including one from my own company), although generally 
> these are more geared to reporting competition results than pure 
> handicap records.

I'm surprised that the UK doesn't have a system. It took a long time, 
and a few failed models, for Australia to get a system up and running, 
but it now covers about 1000 of the 1600 clubs. Clubs that aren't on it 
are a pain, because you still have to manually process visitors 
handicaps (i.e. enter them into GolfLink just for score and CCR purposes 
then post cards to their clubs).

We have two software systems: one used by larger clubs that is provided 
through commercial providers like yourself, where the club's complete 
membership and competition management system links to the GolfLink 
database as part of the event processing; and a simple internet based 
model for smaller clubs that is about as complicated as internet banking.

My club uses the latter (although we can still use the GolfLink database 
for membership records). Although we have a computer and broadband 
connection at the club, handicap processing can be done from any 
computer with an internet connection. You just need appropriate 
administration access at the "competition" level.

The Golflink site is at http://www.golflink.com.au. If you enter the 
number "4110700572" and change the history to "2 years" you'll see Jason 
Day's handicap record before he turned pro.

A sample software provider that links competition and club management to 
GolfLink is here: http://golf-club-management-software.micropower.com.au

Interesting that the Irish system requires a log-on for everything. The 
Australian system doesn't just for golfers to view their handicap, but 
it doesn't provide competitor's names. The New Zealand system provides 
names and full records without any log-on ... so anyone can find your 
name and see your record.

-- 
Cheers
Colin Wilson
------------------------------------------------------------------
Trentham Golf Club: http://www.trenthamgolf.com
Barnbougle Dunes: http://publishing.kyneton.net.au/barnbougle
------------------------------------------------------------------

Colin Wilson wrote:

> 
> I'm surprised that the UK doesn't have a system. It took a long time, 
> and a few failed models, for Australia to get a system up and running, 
> but it now covers about 1000 of the 1600 clubs. Clubs that aren't on it 
> are a pain, because you still have to manually process visitors 
> handicaps (i.e. enter them into GolfLink just for score and CCR purposes 
> then post cards to their clubs).
> 


It's probably worth noting that (IIRC ) the origins of 'GolfLink' were 
purely commercial, being sponsored by the 'Citibank' credit card system. 
The handicap card you were issued with could double as a credit card if 
required. The major cost of its introduction was carried by the 
bank....I understand this didn't prove to be a commercial success. The 
system no longer encompasses a 'credit card' and is now handled by Golf 
Australia themselves, who pay fees to an independent owner. These costs 
are collected from golfers as part of club affiliation fees etc. I don't 
think the system would have been possible without the commercial 
interest in the first place, and we are indeed fortunate that a 
significant organisation was able to fund the introduction of GolfLink 
for the Australian handicapping system.

cheers
david

david s-a wrote:

> It's probably worth noting that (IIRC ) the origins of 'GolfLink' were 
> purely commercial, being sponsored by the 'Citibank' credit card system. 
> The handicap card you were issued with could double as a credit card if 
> required. The major cost of its introduction was carried by the 
> bank....I understand this didn't prove to be a commercial success. The 
> system no longer encompasses a 'credit card' and is now handled by Golf 
> Australia themselves, who pay fees to an independent owner. These costs 
> are collected from golfers as part of club affiliation fees etc. I don't 
> think the system would have been possible without the commercial 
> interest in the first place, and we are indeed fortunate that a 
> significant organisation was able to fund the introduction of GolfLink 
> for the Australian handicapping system.

I tend to think it would have come into being anyway, but you're right 
... the Citibank idea was one of the failed models. Citibank thought 
access to a database of all of Australia's 600,000 or so golfers would 
be a terrific marketing tool and would pay for the handicapping system 
in exchange. I think the number of credit cards they ended up selling 
wasn't many, and the marketing was incorrectly pitched at the type of 
golfers who play at the most exclusive private clubs ... 95% of average 
golfers aren't that affluent!

But the system also failed technically because for smaller clubs they 
proposed terminal hardware along the lines of an EFTPOS machine that 
needed to be dial-up connected to the central computer all the time for 
card processing. It was old technology, expensive and would have cost 
Citibank too much to sponsor. Plus there was an awful lot of programming 
problems and delays in getting the system running.

It wasn't until they switched to a simple and easy-to-use internet-based 
model that the national handicapping system got enough impetus for every 
club to want to take it up. There are still a lot of clubs who can't be 
convinced of its advantages.

The levy on golfers to run the system is currently $2.50 (plus GST) per 
year. When the Citibank model failed, it was originally proposed at $7-8 
or thereabouts, and it copped a lot of flak from small clubs who just 
wouldn't join. I think the current low fee is a financial millstone 
around Golf Australia's neck, and as from April 1 2008, the levy will 
rise to $4.50 (plus GST). It will be interesting to see how many more of 
the 600 or so "recalcitrant" clubs they get to join in.

-- 
Cheers
Colin Wilson
------------------------------------------------------------------
Trentham Golf Club: http://www.trenthamgolf.com
Barnbougle Dunes: http://publishing.kyneton.net.au/barnbougle
------------------------------------------------------------------

"Colin Wilson"  wrote in message 
news:6xyRi.749$CN4.554@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> david s-a wrote:
>
Others know better than I on this subject, but I think that, in England:
a) the EGU wanted to re-invent the wheel at vast expense to provide a system 
when either an existing systen could have been used or a new system built 
for considerably less than they budgeted.
b) Golfers like everyone, are inundated with junk mail and spam.  They 
foresaw, rightly or wrongly, information about them being available or 
offered up for commercial targeting if the system was sponsored and does not 
trust the EGU not to sell on their personal details;
c) I would guess that 90% of golfers play all their qualifying competitions 
on their home course and only about 1% ever enter open or external 
competitions where authentication of handicaps are sought;
d) the CONGU Unified Handicapping System, unlike the USGA system, does not 
require every card to be submitted.  IIRC, if a golfer plays in a qualifying 
competition at a club where he is not a member, he only has to report his 
score if it would reduce his handicap.
e) The average club member already thinks that apart from an official 
handicap, he gets precious little else for his annual EGU and County levy. 
He would baulk at paying more to be part of a system bringing him no 
benefits.

A simple way forward might be for the EGU or any national union for that 
matter, to require all affiliated clubs to have websites on which there was 
a protected page listing the full names of all its members and their current 
handicaps.
The page would only be accessible to their own club members and to the 
National Unions.  Any outside agency (county golf union, a club who runs a 
major open competition, national newspaper running golf events, etc) wanting 
access would only be able to reach a club's list of members' handicaps via a 
protected link from the national union's website for which they would only 
be given the current password after a vetting process and would pay the 
national union for accesses.

Malcolm

M L Wadsworth wrote:

> A simple way forward might be for the EGU or any national union for that 
> matter, to require all affiliated clubs to have websites on which there was 
> a protected page listing the full names of all its members and their current 
> handicaps.

It's worthwhile noting that even as a Golflink club administrator, I 
can't get access to the contact details of members from other clubs, 
only my own.

The other problem is that the view is different from a handicapper's 
perspective as opposed to the individual golfer. The individual golfer 
might not be able to see the benefit, but the work that a national 
system saves the club handicapper is considerable. Most club 
handicappers would spend about 4-5 hours per week processing cards under 
a manual system. If valued at A$15 per hour, that's roughly $4000 worth 
of volunteer work to the club. Not to mention the cost of manually 
posting visitor's cards back to home clubs and saving costs like 
photocopying.

So what individual golfers are saying is that they're happy with the 
status quo ... they don't want to pay a few dollars each per year for 
the benefits of faster and more accurate processing, easier entry to 
tournaments because no handicap record is required, internet access to 
their handicap and competition results. And in lieu of their laziness 
and thin wallets they're happy for some generous sod to spend an 
inordinate amount of manual time calculating and writing all their 
records in a book.

In times when volunteering is getting harder to find, I think they 
should be doing anything that eases the workload.

-- 
Cheers
Colin Wilson
------------------------------------------------------------------
Trentham Golf Club: http://www.trenthamgolf.com
Barnbougle Dunes: http://publishing.kyneton.net.au/barnbougle
------------------------------------------------------------------

"Colin Wilson"  wrote in message 
news:WBRRi.1528$CN4.664@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>M L Wadsworth wrote:
>
>> A simple way forward might be for the EGU or any national union for that 
>> matter, to require all affiliated clubs to have websites on which there 
>> was a protected page listing the full names of all its members and their 
>> current handicaps.
>
> It's worthwhile noting that even as a Golflink club administrator, I can't 
> get access to the contact details of members from other clubs, only my 
> own.
>
> The other problem is that the view is different from a handicapper's 
> perspective as opposed to the individual golfer. The individual golfer 
> might not be able to see the benefit, but the work that a national system 
> saves the club handicapper is considerable. Most club handicappers would 
> spend about 4-5 hours per week processing cards under a manual system. If 
> valued at A$15 per hour, that's roughly $4000 worth of volunteer work to 
> the club. Not to mention the cost of manually posting visitor's cards back 
> to home clubs and saving costs like photocopying.
>
> So what individual golfers are saying is that they're happy with the 
> status quo ... they don't want to pay a few dollars each per year for the 
> benefits of faster and more accurate processing, easier entry to 
> tournaments because no handicap record is required, internet access to 
> their handicap and competition results. And in lieu of their laziness and 
> thin wallets they're happy for some generous sod to spend an inordinate 
> amount of manual time calculating and writing all their records in a book.
>
> In times when volunteering is getting harder to find, I think they should 
> be doing anything that eases the workload.
>
> -- 
> Cheers
> Colin Wilson

Colin,
Most clubs nowadays use a computer system for the inputting of scores by the 
players and calculation of results and many clubs already have their own 
websites, it is only a national database which missing.

Malcolm

M L Wadsworth in :

<snip>
>A simple way forward might be for the EGU or any national union for that 
>matter, to require all affiliated clubs to have websites on which there was 
>a protected page listing the full names of all its members and their current 
>handicaps.
>The page would only be accessible to their own club members and to the 
>National Unions.  Any outside agency (county golf union, a club who runs a 
>major open competition, national newspaper running golf events, etc) wanting 
>access would only be able to reach a club's list of members' handicaps via a 
>protected link from the national union's website for which they would only 
>be given the current password after a vetting process and would pay the 
>national union for accesses.

I think it's about time to tell you about our national installation:

Fortunately we have only one association in one country opposed to your six
in three (if I counted correctly). They have installed a distributed
intranet in the internet. AFAIK all clubs are connected to this intranet.
Individuals have access via a browser interface.

Clubs report their competition schedules and results, their members + HCPs
to the intranet and automatically get their members' results in external
comps. When I present my membership card at a foreign club they can easily
check my current HCP. This is being used for tournament entries as well as
when I ask to play against greenfee.
Members can check the schedules and enter competitions, see their starting
times + flight (group) partners, the competition results and their own HCP
history as well as a HCP list of their own club. There are some statistic
functions included. For instance, my HCP rank in Germany ((gentle)men only)
is 63.495 from 328.000...

AFAIK there are two different client software programs for the clubs which
keep the HCPs, manage tournaments and maintain the connection to the
intranet.

Data protection and privacy laws are very strict in Germany so most
personal informations are protected by password access. Thus, only me and
my club have access to my HCP history. Alas, you can find almost each
result of every tournament openly in the net.

Ciao,

Paul

Paul Schmitz-Josten wrote:
> M L Wadsworth in :
> 
> <snip>
>> A simple way forward might be for the EGU or any national union for that 
>> matter, to require all affiliated clubs to have websites on which there was 
>> a protected page listing the full names of all its members and their current 
>> handicaps.
>> The page would only be accessible to their own club members and to the 
>> National Unions.  Any outside agency (county golf union, a club who runs a 
>> major open competition, national newspaper running golf events, etc) wanting 
>> access would only be able to reach a club's list of members' handicaps via a 
>> protected link from the national union's website for which they would only 
>> be given the current password after a vetting process and would pay the 
>> national union for accesses.
> 
> I think it's about time to tell you about our national installation:
> 
> Fortunately we have only one association in one country opposed to your six
> in three (if I counted correctly). They have installed a distributed
> intranet in the internet. AFAIK all clubs are connected to this intranet.
> Individuals have access via a browser interface.
> 
> Clubs report their competition schedules and results, their members + HCPs
> to the intranet and automatically get their members' results in external
> comps. When I present my membership card at a foreign club they can easily
> check my current HCP. This is being used for tournament entries as well as
> when I ask to play against greenfee.
> Members can check the schedules and enter competitions, see their starting
> times + flight (group) partners, the competition results and their own HCP
> history as well as a HCP list of their own club. There are some statistic
> functions included. For instance, my HCP rank in Germany ((gentle)men only)
> is 63.495 from 328.000...
> 
> AFAIK there are two different client software programs for the clubs which
> keep the HCPs, manage tournaments and maintain the connection to the
> intranet.
> 
> Data protection and privacy laws are very strict in Germany so most
> personal informations are protected by password access. Thus, only me and
> my club have access to my HCP history. Alas, you can find almost each
> result of every tournament openly in the net.
> 
> Ciao,
> 
> Paul

Superbly simple, workable and effective.

I fail to see any reason we cannot have a similar system here apart from 
the obvious corruption (yes, corruption is the right word) of 
maintaining 'jobs for the boys (and girls)' in separate regional and 
gender split unions and associations. Whether it is English, Scottish 
Ladies or Womens it matters not our administrators, who are the 
beneficiaries of subs from every club member in the country, are guided 
by self interest and elevated by their own self importance rather than 
the working for the benefit of club and casual golfers. What a waste of 
talent and resources.

x<blamp>x   sosumi
-- 
Durram

On Thu, 18 Oct 2007 14:59:53 -0700, John Laird said...
> Always heart-warming to hear of success stories from honest hard work
> and (if you don't mind me saying) humble origins.  I presume the
> biggie is Club 2000 as that's the one I'd always noticed.  Also from
> round this neck of the woods !

Club 2000 allows its data to be published here, I've just recently 
discovered:
http://www.howdidido.co.uk/

-- 
Mark Myers
usenet2 at mcm2002 dot f9 dot co dot uk
I call that a radical interpretation of the text.

"Colin Wilson"  wrote in message 
news:E5xRi.710$CN4.213@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> Nick Perkins wrote:
>
>> Ireland has such a system (www.golfnet.ie), but the UK (more precisely 
>> England, Scotland and Wales) does not. A few attempts have been made, but 
>> none have succeeded.
>>
>> Instead, some commercially run sites have appeared offering similar 
>> functionality (including one from my own company), although generally 
>> these are more geared to reporting competition results than pure handicap 
>> records.
>
> I'm surprised that the UK doesn't have a system. It took a long time, and 
> a few failed models, for Australia to get a system up and running, but it 
> now covers about 1000 of the 1600 clubs. Clubs that aren't on it are a 
> pain, because you still have to manually process visitors handicaps (i.e. 
> enter them into GolfLink just for score and CCR purposes then post cards 
> to their clubs).
>
> We have two software systems: one used by larger clubs that is provided 
> through commercial providers like yourself, where the club's complete 
> membership and competition management system links to the GolfLink 
> database as part of the event processing; and a simple internet based 
> model for smaller clubs that is about as complicated as internet banking.
>
> My club uses the latter (although we can still use the GolfLink database 
> for membership records). Although we have a computer and broadband 
> connection at the club, handicap processing can be done from any computer 
> with an internet connection. You just need appropriate administration 
> access at the "competition" level.
>
> The Golflink site is at http://www.golflink.com.au. If you enter the 
> number "4110700572" and change the history to "2 years" you'll see Jason 
> Day's handicap record before he turned pro.
>
> A sample software provider that links competition and club management to 
> GolfLink is here: http://golf-club-management-software.micropower.com.au
>
> Interesting that the Irish system requires a log-on for everything. The 
> Australian system doesn't just for golfers to view their handicap, but it 
> doesn't provide competitor's names. The New Zealand system provides names 
> and full records without any log-on ... so anyone can find your name and 
> see your record.
>
> -- 
> Cheers
> Colin Wilson
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> Trentham Golf Club: http://www.trenthamgolf.com
> Barnbougle Dunes: http://publishing.kyneton.net.au/barnbougle
> ------------------------------------------------------------------

Hi Colin,

Thank you for your insight into how the Australian GOLFlink service works.

I am particularly interested to see that the central system includes the 
calculation of handicap adjustments.

From 2008, the handicapping authorities here (CONGU) are moving to a system 
where they are largely self-funded through a 'software royalty' based 
licence that all companies producing handicapping software must pay. This is 
being achieved by a significant increase in the royalty levied.

CONGU is a joint committee of the four home nations.

If any of the UK nations produced a central system and offered a Tier-1 type 
web interface, CONGU would lose their income! Likewise, this would be the 
case if the central system did the handicap calculations!

-- 
Nick Perkins
HandicapMaster Ltd

"John Laird"  wrote in message 
news:1192744793.902444.230550@q3g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On 16 Oct, 23:59, "Nick Perkins"
>  wrote:
>
>> Thanks for your kind words. Yes, HandicapMaster is doing well. We have 
>> over
>> 600 clubs using our CONGU competitions and handicapping software now. We
>> think HandicapMaster is the second most widely used CONGU software now.
>>
>> It is a full time job (with others also employed also!).
>>
>> Burning the midnight oil getting ready for the 2008 handicapping changes 
>> :-(
>
> Always heart-warming to hear of success stories from honest hard work
> and (if you don't mind me saying) humble origins.  I presume the
> biggie is Club 2000 as that's the one I'd always noticed.  Also from
> round this neck of the woods !
>
> Best wishes for future success.  Hopefully it still leaves you time
> for some golf :-)
>
> John
>

Yes, Club2000 is the biggie.

Must admit, I am not getting a great deal of golf in! Next spring will be 
very busy, with the handicapping changes (and the necessary updated 
software).

-- 
Nick Perkins
HandicapMaster Ltd

Nick Perkins wrote:

> I am particularly interested to see that the central system includes the 
> calculation of handicap adjustments.

I think that's one of the big advantages. Even with the Tier 1 internet 
model, the local club handicapper is relieved of all the calculation (we 
also now have a number of volunteers who process events). All they have 
to do is enter each player's score against the golfer's number, then 
click on "process the competition", and the central system calculates 
the CCR, produces a competition result ranking by grade, and adjusts 
each player's handicap.

If I travel 3000km west to Margaret River in Western Australia or north 
to Port Douglas in Queensland, and play a club competition or 
tournament, I only have to quote my GolfLink number. My handicap will be 
adjusted and viewable at my home club before I'm on the plane home.

> If any of the UK nations produced a central system and offered a Tier-1 
> type web interface, CONGU would lose their income! Likewise, this would 
> be the case if the central system did the handicap calculations!

The Tier 3 software suppliers in Australia make their money by charging 
clubs for total club management software, which includes competition 
management. The clubs using these systems still pay the GolfLink levy.

-- 
Cheers
Colin Wilson
------------------------------------------------------------------
Trentham Golf Club: http://www.trenthamgolf.com
Barnbougle Dunes: http://publishing.kyneton.net.au/barnbougle
------------------------------------------------------------------