Is it usual practice to drop off a wrong tee?

In the past we have had a local rule in winter when we are required to drop 
off a tee but I can't see this is the RoG specimen local rules.

Our secretary suggests that we have to drop off a tee all year round but I'm 
not sure that he's right - what's the normal practice at other clubs please?

"MaggieB"  wrote in message 
news:iYZOi.22299$HW.4715@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
> Is it usual practice to drop off a wrong tee?
>
> In the past we have had a local rule in winter when we are required to 
> drop off a tee but I can't see this is the RoG specimen local rules.
>
> Our secretary suggests that we have to drop off a tee all year round but 
> I'm not sure that he's right - what's the normal practice at other clubs 
> please?
>
Hi Maggie,

There is no Rule of Golf requiring a player to take relief from a wrong 
teeing ground, nor from the teeing area on which a teeing ground is 
situated.  Rule 25-3 covers relief only from a wrong putting green.
It is not normal for a Local Rule to be made requiring players to take 
relief from the teeing areas (not just teeing grounds) of other holes and I 
would of thought it quite unnecessary anyway, as even when a teeing area is 
relatively close to a green of another hole, few balls will be played from 
it. I would not recommend it.

All players should know that divots are never replaced on teeing grounds nor 
teeing areas.
Any holes should be filled with seed & dressing mix if available to hand, 
otherwise left to the green keepers to repair.
The reason for this is the risk of a player playing his tee shot while 
unwittingly having a footing on a replaced but loose divot.
A broken leg can result.

HTH,
Malcolm

"M L Wadsworth"  wrote in 
message news:kLadnVQnt8zP5pHanZ2dnUVZ8sqjnZ2d@bt.com...
>
> "MaggieB"  wrote in message 
> news:iYZOi.22299$HW.4715@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
>> Is it usual practice to drop off a wrong tee?
>>
>> In the past we have had a local rule in winter when we are required to 
>> drop off a tee but I can't see this is the RoG specimen local rules.
>>
>> Our secretary suggests that we have to drop off a tee all year round but 
>> I'm not sure that he's right - what's the normal practice at other clubs 
>> please?
>>
> Hi Maggie,
>
> There is no Rule of Golf requiring a player to take relief from a wrong 
> teeing ground, nor from the teeing area on which a teeing ground is 
> situated.  Rule 25-3 covers relief only from a wrong putting green.
> It is not normal for a Local Rule to be made requiring players to take 
> relief from the teeing areas (not just teeing grounds) of other holes and 
> I would of thought it quite unnecessary anyway, as even when a teeing area 
> is relatively close to a green of another hole, few balls will be played 
> from it. I would not recommend it.
>
> All players should know that divots are never replaced on teeing grounds 
> nor teeing areas.
> Any holes should be filled with seed & dressing mix if available to hand, 
> otherwise left to the green keepers to repair.
> The reason for this is the risk of a player playing his tee shot while 
> unwittingly having a footing on a replaced but loose divot.
> A broken leg can result.
>
> HTH,
> Malcolm
>

Thanks for that Malcolm but I have just found reference to this subject in 
Rule 24-2 (ii) (iv) where it says that teeing ground is immovable 
instruction and ball therefore has to be dropped off - is that a new rule - 
I didn't know about that???

"MaggieB"  writes:

> "M L Wadsworth"  wrote in 
> message news:kLadnVQnt8zP5pHanZ2dnUVZ8sqjnZ2d@bt.com...
> >
> > "MaggieB"  wrote in message 
> > news:iYZOi.22299$HW.4715@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
> >> Is it usual practice to drop off a wrong tee?
> >>
> >> In the past we have had a local rule in winter when we are required to 
> >> drop off a tee but I can't see this is the RoG specimen local rules.
> >>
> >> Our secretary suggests that we have to drop off a tee all year round but 
> >> I'm not sure that he's right - what's the normal practice at other clubs 
> >> please?
> >>
> > Hi Maggie,
> >
> > There is no Rule of Golf requiring a player to take relief from a wrong 
> > teeing ground, nor from the teeing area on which a teeing ground is 
> > situated.  Rule 25-3 covers relief only from a wrong putting green.
> > It is not normal for a Local Rule to be made requiring players to take 
> > relief from the teeing areas (not just teeing grounds) of other holes and 
> > I would of thought it quite unnecessary anyway, as even when a teeing area 
> > is relatively close to a green of another hole, few balls will be played 
> > from it. I would not recommend it.
> >
> > All players should know that divots are never replaced on teeing grounds 
> > nor teeing areas.
> > Any holes should be filled with seed & dressing mix if available to hand, 
> > otherwise left to the green keepers to repair.
> > The reason for this is the risk of a player playing his tee shot while 
> > unwittingly having a footing on a replaced but loose divot.
> > A broken leg can result.
> >
> > HTH,
> > Malcolm
> >
> 
> Thanks for that Malcolm but I have just found reference to this subject in 
> Rule 24-2 (ii) (iv) where it says that teeing ground is immovable 
> instruction and ball therefore has to be dropped off - is that a new rule - 
> I didn't know about that??? 

Maggie, Rule 24-2(b)(iv) does not say that a teeing ground is an immovable
obstruction; it explains how to take relief from an immovable obstruction
when one's ball in play lies within the teeing ground.

The teeing ground is a 2 club-length deep area extending back (away
from the hole) from the tee-markers (the set that the player is playing 
on the hole that the player is playing).  These other areas that are 
prepared for teeing are areas through the green.

You may want to review the Definitions of "Obstructions", "Teeing Ground",
and "Through the Green" in the Definitions section of your Rules book.

-- 
             Leon Chamae
             Directeur du Personnel
             Bureau de Change

"Leon Chamae"  wrote in message 
news:bazhckzrzfc.fsf@alpha.luckytrout.com...
> "MaggieB"  writes:
>
>> "M L Wadsworth"  wrote in
>> message news:kLadnVQnt8zP5pHanZ2dnUVZ8sqjnZ2d@bt.com...
>> >
>> > "MaggieB"  wrote in message
>> > news:iYZOi.22299$HW.4715@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
>> >> Is it usual practice to drop off a wrong tee?
>> >>
>> >> In the past we have had a local rule in winter when we are required to
>> >> drop off a tee but I can't see this is the RoG specimen local rules.
>> >>
>> >> Our secretary suggests that we have to drop off a tee all year round 
>> >> but
>> >> I'm not sure that he's right - what's the normal practice at other 
>> >> clubs
>> >> please?

Last year, playing in a Seniors Open at a course in the New Forest, I had a 
disagreeable incident when my ball landed on a 'wrong' tee.

As I made ready to play my ball there, one of the three waiting by that tee 
said: "You're not going to play from  there are you?"
I said yes I was.
He said, in a most authorative manner: "You are not allowed to".
I thought he must be from the host club and there must be a local rule and 
so dropped the ball away from the tee - (and muffed the shot).
Later at the meal afterwards he came over to me and apologised for being 
wrong.

It was my fault for not being sure of the rule and not feeling able to stand 
my ground when someone who was being very definite about it.

Norman

"Leon Chamae"  wrote in message 
news:bazhckzrzfc.fsf@alpha.luckytrout.com...
> "MaggieB"  writes:
>
>> "M L Wadsworth"  wrote in
>> message news:kLadnVQnt8zP5pHanZ2dnUVZ8sqjnZ2d@bt.com...
>> >
>> > "MaggieB"  wrote in message
>> > news:iYZOi.22299$HW.4715@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
>> >> Is it usual practice to drop off a wrong tee?
>> >>
>> >> In the past we have had a local rule in winter when we are required to
>> >> drop off a tee but I can't see this is the RoG specimen local rules.
>> >>
>> >> Our secretary suggests that we have to drop off a tee all year round 
>> >> but
>> >> I'm not sure that he's right - what's the normal practice at other 
>> >> clubs
>> >> please?
>> >>
>> > Hi Maggie,
>> >
>> > There is no Rule of Golf requiring a player to take relief from a wrong
>> > teeing ground, nor from the teeing area on which a teeing ground is
>> > situated.  Rule 25-3 covers relief only from a wrong putting green.
>> > It is not normal for a Local Rule to be made requiring players to take
>> > relief from the teeing areas (not just teeing grounds) of other holes 
>> > and
>> > I would of thought it quite unnecessary anyway, as even when a teeing 
>> > area
>> > is relatively close to a green of another hole, few balls will be 
>> > played
>> > from it. I would not recommend it.
>> >
>> > All players should know that divots are never replaced on teeing 
>> > grounds
>> > nor teeing areas.
>> > Any holes should be filled with seed & dressing mix if available to 
>> > hand,
>> > otherwise left to the green keepers to repair.
>> > The reason for this is the risk of a player playing his tee shot while
>> > unwittingly having a footing on a replaced but loose divot.
>> > A broken leg can result.
>> >
>> > HTH,
>> > Malcolm
>> >
>>
>> Thanks for that Malcolm but I have just found reference to this subject 
>> in
>> Rule 24-2 (ii) (iv) where it says that teeing ground is immovable
>> instruction and ball therefore has to be dropped off - is that a new 
>> rule -
>> I didn't know about that???
>
> Maggie, Rule 24-2(b)(iv) does not say that a teeing ground is an immovable
> obstruction; it explains how to take relief from an immovable obstruction
> when one's ball in play lies within the teeing ground.
>
> The teeing ground is a 2 club-length deep area extending back (away
> from the hole) from the tee-markers (the set that the player is playing
> on the hole that the player is playing).  These other areas that are
> prepared for teeing are areas through the green.
>
> You may want to review the Definitions of "Obstructions", "Teeing Ground",
> and "Through the Green" in the Definitions section of your Rules book.

Right OK ........... so the rules are designed to confuse...............and 
I am easily confused! ..........back to square one..................there is 
no dropping from a "wrong" tee.
But do the "Winter Rules" not usually include dropping off a tee?

"MaggieB"  writes:

> "Leon Chamae"  wrote in message 
> news:bazhckzrzfc.fsf@alpha.luckytrout.com...
> > "MaggieB"  writes:
> >
> >> "M L Wadsworth"  wrote in
> >> message news:kLadnVQnt8zP5pHanZ2dnUVZ8sqjnZ2d@bt.com...
> >> >
> >> > "MaggieB"  wrote in message
> >> > news:iYZOi.22299$HW.4715@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
> >> >> Is it usual practice to drop off a wrong tee?
> >> >>
> >> >> In the past we have had a local rule in winter when we are required to
> >> >> drop off a tee but I can't see this is the RoG specimen local rules.
> >> >>
> >> >> Our secretary suggests that we have to drop off a tee all year round 
> >> >> but
> >> >> I'm not sure that he's right - what's the normal practice at other 
> >> >> clubs
> >> >> please?
> >> >>
> >> > Hi Maggie,
> >> >
> >> > There is no Rule of Golf requiring a player to take relief from a wrong
> >> > teeing ground, nor from the teeing area on which a teeing ground is
> >> > situated.  Rule 25-3 covers relief only from a wrong putting green.
> >> > It is not normal for a Local Rule to be made requiring players to take
> >> > relief from the teeing areas (not just teeing grounds) of other holes 
> >> > and
> >> > I would of thought it quite unnecessary anyway, as even when a teeing 
> >> > area
> >> > is relatively close to a green of another hole, few balls will be 
> >> > played
> >> > from it. I would not recommend it.
> >> >
> >> > All players should know that divots are never replaced on teeing 
> >> > grounds
> >> > nor teeing areas.
> >> > Any holes should be filled with seed & dressing mix if available to 
> >> > hand,
> >> > otherwise left to the green keepers to repair.
> >> > The reason for this is the risk of a player playing his tee shot while
> >> > unwittingly having a footing on a replaced but loose divot.
> >> > A broken leg can result.
> >> >
> >> > HTH,
> >> > Malcolm
> >> >
> >>
> >> Thanks for that Malcolm but I have just found reference to this subject 
> >> in
> >> Rule 24-2 (ii) (iv) where it says that teeing ground is immovable
> >> instruction and ball therefore has to be dropped off - is that a new 
> >> rule -
> >> I didn't know about that???
> >
> > Maggie, Rule 24-2(b)(iv) does not say that a teeing ground is an immovable
> > obstruction; it explains how to take relief from an immovable obstruction
> > when one's ball in play lies within the teeing ground.
> >
> > The teeing ground is a 2 club-length deep area extending back (away
> > from the hole) from the tee-markers (the set that the player is playing
> > on the hole that the player is playing).  These other areas that are
> > prepared for teeing are areas through the green.
> >
> > You may want to review the Definitions of "Obstructions", "Teeing Ground",
> > and "Through the Green" in the Definitions section of your Rules book.
> 
> Right OK ........... so the rules are designed to confuse...............and 

The Rules are not designed to confuse.  Your confusion in this case appears
to be due to taking a section out of context and not understanding
the Definitions.

> I am easily confused! ..........back to square one..................there is 
> no dropping from a "wrong" tee.
> But do the "Winter Rules" not usually include dropping off a tee?

"Winter Rules" is slang for "Preferred Lies" or a "lift, clean and place"
Local Rule -- see Appendix I; Part B; 

-- 
             Leon Chamae
             Directeur du Personnel
             Bureau de Change

"MaggieB"  wrote in message 
news:iYZOi.22299$HW.4715@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
> Is it usual practice to drop off a wrong tee?
>
> In the past we have had a local rule in winter when we are required to 
> drop off a tee but I can't see this is the RoG specimen local rules.
>
> Our secretary suggests that we have to drop off a tee all year round but 
> I'm not sure that he's right - what's the normal practice at other clubs 
> please?
>

A club where I frequently play has a local rule requesting that unless a 
serious competition or match is being played players should drop of the 
teeing ground. Note the word  'requesting'

Denis

M L Wadsworth wrote:
> "MaggieB"  wrote in message 
> news:iYZOi.22299$HW.4715@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
>> Is it usual practice to drop off a wrong tee?
>>
>> In the past we have had a local rule in winter when we are required to 
>> drop off a tee but I can't see this is the RoG specimen local rules.
>>
>> Our secretary suggests that we have to drop off a tee all year round but 
>> I'm not sure that he's right - what's the normal practice at other clubs 
>> please?
>>
> Hi Maggie,
> 
> There is no Rule of Golf requiring a player to take relief from a wrong 
> teeing ground, nor from the teeing area on which a teeing ground is 
> situated.  Rule 25-3 covers relief only from a wrong putting green.
> It is not normal for a Local Rule to be made requiring players to take 
> relief from the teeing areas (not just teeing grounds) of other holes and I 
> would of thought it quite unnecessary anyway, as even when a teeing area is 
> relatively close to a green of another hole, few balls will be played from 
> it. I would not recommend it.


Quiz for interested parties!

Interesting situation here that needs some thought. If you are seeking 
relief from an obstruction on a wrong teeing ground, what if that 
obstruction was a tee marker. Would you treat it as  'fixed' , a 
moveable obstruction, or an immovable obstruction?

...and I do know the answer!

cheers
david

david s-a in :

>Quiz for interested parties!
>
>Interesting situation here that needs some thought. If you are seeking 
>relief from an obstruction on a wrong teeing ground, what if that 
>obstruction was a tee marker. Would you treat it as  'fixed' , a 
>moveable obstruction, or an immovable obstruction?
>
>...and I do know the answer!

Good boy: You learnt your RoG!

<G>reets,

Paul

"david s-a"  wrote in message 
news:5n59qmFg64ufU1@mid.individual.net...
>M L Wadsworth wrote:
>> "MaggieB"  wrote in message 
>> news:iYZOi.22299$HW.4715@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...

> Quiz for interested parties!
>
> Interesting situation here that needs some thought. If you are seeking 
> relief from an obstruction on a wrong teeing ground, what if that 
> obstruction was a tee marker. Would you treat it as  'fixed' , a moveable 
> obstruction, or an immovable obstruction?
>
> ...and I do know the answer!
>
> cheers
> david

I don't know why anyone should question it.
Tee markers are man-made therefore obstructions
If they are movable, and they normally are, then they are movable 
obstructions.

One hopes most players know that tee markers defining the teeing ground of 
*the hole being played* are deemed immovable obstructions until after a 
player has made his first stroke at that hole (Rule 11-2).
So, if a player tees his ball so that a tee marker interfers with his stance 
and then instead of moving his ball, he plays it anyway and does an air 
shot, he may now move the offending tee marker while he plays his next 
stroke but must replace it afterwards.

:-)
Malcolm

"MaggieB"  wrote in message 
news:Ec0Pi.28405$aN2.23528@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net...
>
> "M L Wadsworth"  wrote in 
> message news:kLadnVQnt8zP5pHanZ2dnUVZ8sqjnZ2d@bt.com...
>>
>> "MaggieB"  wrote in message 
>> news:iYZOi.22299$HW.4715@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
>>> Is it usual practice to drop off a wrong tee?
>>>
>>> In the past we have had a local rule in winter when we are required to 
>>> drop off a tee but I can't see this is the RoG specimen local rules.
>>>
>>> Our secretary suggests that we have to drop off a tee all year round but 
>>> I'm not sure that he's right - what's the normal practice at other clubs 
>>> please?
>>>
>> Hi Maggie,
>>
>> There is no Rule of Golf requiring a player to take relief from a wrong 
>> teeing ground, nor from the teeing area on which a teeing ground is 
>> situated.  Rule 25-3 covers relief only from a wrong putting green.
>> It is not normal for a Local Rule to be made requiring players to take 
>> relief from the teeing areas (not just teeing grounds) of other holes and 
>> I would of thought it quite unnecessary anyway, as even when a teeing 
>> area is relatively close to a green of another hole, few balls will be 
>> played from it. I would not recommend it.
>>
>> All players should know that divots are never replaced on teeing grounds 
>> nor teeing areas.
>> Any holes should be filled with seed & dressing mix if available to hand, 
>> otherwise left to the green keepers to repair.
>> The reason for this is the risk of a player playing his tee shot while 
>> unwittingly having a footing on a replaced but loose divot.
>> A broken leg can result.
>>
>> HTH,
>> Malcolm
>>
>
> Thanks for that Malcolm but I have just found reference to this subject in 
> Rule 24-2 (ii) (iv) where it says that teeing ground is immovable 
> instruction and ball therefore has to be dropped off - is that a new 
> rule - I didn't know about that???

Maggie,

I understand your confusion.

We have to be careful in interpreting words in the Rules like "a" and "the" 
(see page 4 of your Rule book).

24-2 (b) explains how to take relief from an immovable obstruction. The 
procedure depends where the ball lies, not where the obstruction is.
When playing a hole, the course consists of 4 parts: the teeing ground of 
the hole being played; the putting green; all hazards on the course and the 
rest - known as "through the.green" (see Definitions section for all these 
parts).

24-2(b)(i) deals with a ball lying "through the green" - the most common 
circumstance;
24-2(b)(ii) deals with a ball lying in a bunker (there is no relief from 
immovable obstructions if the ball is lying in a water hazard);
24-2(b)(iii) deals with a ball lying on THE putting green (not any putting 
green since a ball on another putting green is on a wrong green and has to 
be lifted (Rule 25-3), and
24-2(b)(iv) deals with a ball lying on THE teeing ground (other teeing 
grounds being part of "through the green" - presumably placed last because 
it occurs least frequently.

Regards,
Malcolm

M L Wadsworth in :

(david)
>> Interesting situation here that needs some thought. If you are seeking 
>> relief from an obstruction on a wrong teeing ground, what if that 
>> obstruction was a tee marker. Would you treat it as  'fixed' , a moveable 
>> obstruction, or an immovable obstruction?
>>
>> ...and I do know the answer!
>>
>> cheers
>> david
>
>I don't know why anyone should question it.
>Tee markers are man-made therefore obstructions
>If they are movable, and they normally are, then they are movable 
>obstructions.

...unless they are pots full of flowers (preferrably in the appropriate
colors white, yellow red...) or other decorative stuff on the first tee!

>One hopes most players know that tee markers defining the teeing ground of 
>*the hole being played* are deemed immovable obstructions until after a 
>player has made his first stroke at that hole (Rule 11-2).

...unless you bet for a beer as a guest like I did and the home player gets
support from his "rules specialists": They advised that RoG 11-2 is only
for the very first shot of a tournament, thus turning the bet against me
:-(

>So, if a player tees his ball so that a tee marker interfers with his stance 
>and then instead of moving his ball, he plays it anyway and does an air 
>shot, he may now move the offending tee marker while he plays his next 
>stroke but must replace it afterwards.

<grin>

...unless "the intention of striking at and moving the ball" is not clear
(e.g. when being too far away of the ball)...

Ciao,

Paul

Paul Schmitz-Josten wrote:
> M L Wadsworth in :
> 
> (david)
>>> Interesting situation here that needs some thought. If you are seeking 
>>> relief from an obstruction on a wrong teeing ground, what if that 
>>> obstruction was a tee marker. Would you treat it as  'fixed' , a moveable 
>>> obstruction, or an immovable obstruction?
>>>
>>> ...and I do know the answer!
>>>
>>> cheers
>>> david
>> I don't know why anyone should question it.
>> Tee markers are man-made therefore obstructions
>> If they are movable, and they normally are, then they are movable 
>> obstructions.
> 
> ...unless they are pots full of flowers (preferrably in the appropriate
> colors white, yellow red...) or other decorative stuff on the first tee!
> 
>> One hopes most players know that tee markers defining the teeing ground of 
>> *the hole being played* are deemed immovable obstructions until after a 
>> player has made his first stroke at that hole (Rule 11-2).
> 
> ...unless you bet for a beer as a guest like I did and the home player gets
> support from his "rules specialists": They advised that RoG 11-2 is only
> for the very first shot of a tournament, thus turning the bet against me
> :-(
> 


Malcolm and Paul,

You both appear to have fallen into the 'trap'!

Perhaps I should remind you....Rule 11-2 declares that tee markers 
defining the teeing ground *of the hole being played* are deemed *fixed* 
until after a player has made his first stroke at the hole...and they 
are neither 'immovable' or 'movable' obstructions until that stroke has 
been made. There is no relief at all from 'interference' while they are 
'fixed', and obviously, as there is no ball in play there isn't even a 
remedy via Rule 28. However, my quiz actually addressed the issue of tee 
markers being obstructions on a _wrong_ teeing ground (ie. not the 
teeing ground of the hole being played)......and Malcolm's first comment 
is therefore correct and immediately obvious! Unfortunately his second 
para messed that up and I believe Paul went along and agreed with him!

Just checking up on you!

:-)

cheers
david

"david s-a"  wrote in message 
news:5n6iibFgj0j3U1@mid.individual.net...
> Paul Schmitz-Josten wrote:
>> M L Wadsworth in :
>>
>> (david)
>>>> Interesting situation here that needs some thought. If you are seeking 
>>>> relief from an obstruction on a wrong teeing ground, what if that 
>>>> obstruction was a tee marker. Would you treat it as  'fixed' , a 
>>>> moveable obstruction, or an immovable obstruction?
>>>>
>>>> ...and I do know the answer!
>>>>
>>>> cheers
>>>> david
>>> I don't know why anyone should question it.
>>> Tee markers are man-made therefore obstructions
>>> If they are movable, and they normally are, then they are movable 
>>> obstructions.
>>
>> ...unless they are pots full of flowers (preferrably in the appropriate
>> colors white, yellow red...) or other decorative stuff on the first tee!
>>
>>> One hopes most players know that tee markers defining the teeing ground 
>>> of *the hole being played* are deemed immovable obstructions until after 
>>> a player has made his first stroke at that hole (Rule 11-2).
>>
>> ...unless you bet for a beer as a guest like I did and the home player 
>> gets
>> support from his "rules specialists": They advised that RoG 11-2 is only
>> for the very first shot of a tournament, thus turning the bet against me
>> :-(
>>
>
>
> Malcolm and Paul,
>
> You both appear to have fallen into the 'trap'!
>
> Perhaps I should remind you....Rule 11-2 declares that tee markers 
> defining the teeing ground *of the hole being played* are deemed *fixed* 
> until after a player has made his first stroke at the hole...and they are 
> neither 'immovable' or 'movable' obstructions until that stroke has been 
> made. There is no relief at all from 'interference' while they are 
> 'fixed', and obviously, as there is no ball in play there isn't even a 
> remedy via Rule 28. However, my quiz actually addressed the issue of tee 
> markers being obstructions on a _wrong_ teeing ground (ie. not the teeing 
> ground of the hole being played)......and Malcolm's first comment is 
> therefore correct and immediately obvious! Unfortunately his second para 
> messed that up and I believe Paul went along and agreed with him!
>
> Just checking up on you!
>
> :-)
>
> cheers
> david
>
You are right, David, I did fall into the trap (or should that be bunker) of 
calling an object an obstruction when a player has no ball in play.
Similarly there is no relief from casual water or Paul's plant pots on or by 
a teeing ground until a player has made a stroke and then relief only 
applies to him and his ball in play.

Regards,
Malcolm

M L Wadsworth wrote:
> "david s-a"  wrote in message 
> news:5n6iibFgj0j3U1@mid.individual.net...
>> Paul Schmitz-Josten wrote:
>>> M L Wadsworth in :
>>>
>>> (david)
>>>>> Interesting situation here that needs some thought. If you are seeking 
>>>>> relief from an obstruction on a wrong teeing ground, what if that 
>>>>> obstruction was a tee marker. Would you treat it as  'fixed' , a 
>>>>> moveable obstruction, or an immovable obstruction?
>>>>>
>>>>> ...and I do know the answer!
>>>>>
>>>>> cheers
>>>>> david
>>>> I don't know why anyone should question it.
>>>> Tee markers are man-made therefore obstructions
>>>> If they are movable, and they normally are, then they are movable 
>>>> obstructions.
>>> ...unless they are pots full of flowers (preferrably in the appropriate
>>> colors white, yellow red...) or other decorative stuff on the first tee!
>>>
>>>> One hopes most players know that tee markers defining the teeing ground 
>>>> of *the hole being played* are deemed immovable obstructions until after 
>>>> a player has made his first stroke at that hole (Rule 11-2).
>>> ...unless you bet for a beer as a guest like I did and the home player 
>>> gets
>>> support from his "rules specialists": They advised that RoG 11-2 is only
>>> for the very first shot of a tournament, thus turning the bet against me
>>> :-(
>>>
>>
>> Malcolm and Paul,
>>
>> You both appear to have fallen into the 'trap'!
>>
>> Perhaps I should remind you....Rule 11-2 declares that tee markers 
>> defining the teeing ground *of the hole being played* are deemed *fixed* 
>> until after a player has made his first stroke at the hole...and they are 
>> neither 'immovable' or 'movable' obstructions until that stroke has been 
>> made. There is no relief at all from 'interference' while they are 
>> 'fixed', and obviously, as there is no ball in play there isn't even a 
>> remedy via Rule 28. However, my quiz actually addressed the issue of tee 
>> markers being obstructions on a _wrong_ teeing ground (ie. not the teeing 
>> ground of the hole being played)......and Malcolm's first comment is 
>> therefore correct and immediately obvious! Unfortunately his second para 
>> messed that up and I believe Paul went along and agreed with him!
>>
>> Just checking up on you!
>>
>> :-)
>>
>> cheers
>> david
>>
> You are right, David, I did fall into the trap (or should that be bunker) of 
> calling an object an obstruction when a player has no ball in play.
> Similarly there is no relief from casual water or Paul's plant pots on or by 
> a teeing ground until a player has made a stroke and then relief only 
> applies to him and his ball in play.
> 
> Regards,
> Malcolm
> 
> 


...and just to round this off Malcolm, are we missing the point here 
with respect to the word *fixed*? In connection with the tee markers 
this has the same connotation when it is attached to status of OOB 
markers, which are deemed 'fixed' objects as distinct from 
'obstructions' normally addressed in Rule 24. The tee markers, when 
'fixed', are subject to the limitations imposed by Rule 13-2, and 
therefore may not be moved in order to provide improvement to lie, area 
of intended stance or swing, or line of play.

I'm not quite sure what would happen if you moved them for any other 
reason though...would you be penalised and if so under what rule?

cheers
david

"david s-a"  wrote in message 
news:5n7ns5Fgt8enU1@mid.individual.net...
>M L Wadsworth wrote:
>> "david s-a"  wrote in message 
>> news:5n6iibFgj0j3U1@mid.individual.net...
>>> Paul Schmitz-Josten wrote:
>>>> M L Wadsworth in :
>>>>
>>>> (david)
>>>>>> Interesting situation here that needs some thought. If you are 
>>>>>> seeking relief from an obstruction on a wrong teeing ground, what if 
>>>>>> that obstruction was a tee marker. Would you treat it as  'fixed' , a 
>>>>>> moveable obstruction, or an immovable obstruction?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> ...and I do know the answer!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> cheers
>>>>>> david
>>>>> I don't know why anyone should question it.
>>>>> Tee markers are man-made therefore obstructions
>>>>> If they are movable, and they normally are, then they are movable 
>>>>> obstructions.
>>>> ...unless they are pots full of flowers (preferrably in the appropriate
>>>> colors white, yellow red...) or other decorative stuff on the first 
>>>> tee!
>>>>
>>>>> One hopes most players know that tee markers defining the teeing 
>>>>> ground of *the hole being played* are deemed immovable obstructions 
>>>>> until after a player has made his first stroke at that hole (Rule 
>>>>> 11-2).
>>>> ...unless you bet for a beer as a guest like I did and the home player 
>>>> gets
>>>> support from his "rules specialists": They advised that RoG 11-2 is 
>>>> only
>>>> for the very first shot of a tournament, thus turning the bet against 
>>>> me
>>>> :-(
>>>>
>>>
>>> Malcolm and Paul,
>>>
>>> You both appear to have fallen into the 'trap'!
>>>
>>> Perhaps I should remind you....Rule 11-2 declares that tee markers 
>>> defining the teeing ground *of the hole being played* are deemed *fixed* 
>>> until after a player has made his first stroke at the hole...and they 
>>> are neither 'immovable' or 'movable' obstructions until that stroke has 
>>> been made. There is no relief at all from 'interference' while they are 
>>> 'fixed', and obviously, as there is no ball in play there isn't even a 
>>> remedy via Rule 28. However, my quiz actually addressed the issue of tee 
>>> markers being obstructions on a _wrong_ teeing ground (ie. not the 
>>> teeing ground of the hole being played)......and Malcolm's first comment 
>>> is therefore correct and immediately obvious! Unfortunately his second 
>>> para messed that up and I believe Paul went along and agreed with him!
>>>
>>> Just checking up on you!
>>>
>>> :-)
>>>
>>> cheers
>>> david
>>>
>> You are right, David, I did fall into the trap (or should that be bunker) 
>> of calling an object an obstruction when a player has no ball in play.
>> Similarly there is no relief from casual water or Paul's plant pots on or 
>> by a teeing ground until a player has made a stroke and then relief only 
>> applies to him and his ball in play.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Malcolm
>>
>>
>
>
> ...and just to round this off Malcolm, are we missing the point here with 
> respect to the word *fixed*? In connection with the tee markers this has 
> the same connotation when it is attached to status of OOB markers, which 
> are deemed 'fixed' objects as distinct from 'obstructions' normally 
> addressed in Rule 24.

...Also, because OOB markers are situated outside the course, they cannot be 
obstructions.
For something to be an obstruction it has to be on the course.


The tee markers, when
> 'fixed', are subject to the limitations imposed by Rule 13-2, and 
> therefore may not be moved in order to provide improvement to lie, area of 
> intended stance or swing, or line of play.
>
> I'm not quite sure what would happen if you moved them for any other 
> reason though...would you be penalised and if so under what rule?
>
> cheers
> david
>
I would say that tee markers are subject to the limitations of 11-2 rather 
than 13-2 and any penalties would be under that Rule (see 11-2/2).

The course is defined by three things: the OOBs margins as defined by the 
Committee the holes and the teeing grounds.
A player may not move any of these.

Regards,
Malcolm

On Thu, 11 Oct 2007 12:54:54 +0200, Paul Schmitz-Josten
 wrote:


> ...unless you bet for a beer as a guest like I did and the home player gets
> support from his "rules specialists": They advised that RoG 11-2 is only
> for the very first shot of a tournament, thus turning the bet against me
> :-(
> 
You were had.  They were wrong, and owe you an apology and a beer.
:-)

Peter

"M L Wadsworth"  wrote in 
message news:kLadnVQnt8zP5pHanZ2dnUVZ8sqjnZ2d@bt.com...
>
> "MaggieB"  wrote in message 
> news:iYZOi.22299$HW.4715@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
>> Is it usual practice to drop off a wrong tee?

<snip>
>
> All players should know that divots are never replaced on teeing grounds 
> nor teeing areas.
> Any holes should be filled with seed & dressing mix if available to hand, 
> otherwise left to the green keepers to repair.
> The reason for this is the risk of a player playing his tee shot while 
> unwittingly having a footing on a replaced but loose divot.
> A broken leg can result.
>
> HTH,
> Malcolm

What a load of tosh (with, of course, the greatest possible respect).

You mean we should not replace divots on the fairways because of the risk of 
a player playing his approach shot while  unwittingly having a footing on a 
replaced but loose divot!!!

On tees (and the same principles apply to fairway divots), the all too 
uncommon 'common sense' must prevail between the two extremes:
If, in the middle of winter, you remove 18" of prime turf to a depth of 1", 
replace it.
If, in the middle of summer, you remove 6" of loose grass with no roots, do 
not replace it.

Basically, if the divot, when replaced, is likely to take root, replace it, 
otherwise, junk it.

Just my humble opinion of course

Peter Strauss in :

>> ...unless you bet for a beer as a guest like I did and the home player gets
>> support from his "rules specialists": They advised that RoG 11-2 is only
>> for the very first shot of a tournament, thus turning the bet against me
>> :-(
>> 
>You were had.  

<uncomprehending furrow of brow>

>They were wrong, and owe you an apology and a beer.
>:-)

Nice to know ;->

Ciao,

Paul

"Sam"  wrote in message 
news:fetqja$bre$1$830fa79d@news.demon.co.uk...
>
> "M L Wadsworth"  wrote in 
> message news:kLadnVQnt8zP5pHanZ2dnUVZ8sqjnZ2d@bt.com...
>>
>> "MaggieB"  wrote in message 
>> news:iYZOi.22299$HW.4715@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
>>> Is it usual practice to drop off a wrong tee?
>
> <snip>
>>
>> All players should know that divots are never replaced on teeing grounds 
>> nor teeing areas.
>> Any holes should be filled with seed & dressing mix if available to hand, 
>> otherwise left to the green keepers to repair.
>> The reason for this is the risk of a player playing his tee shot while 
>> unwittingly having a footing on a replaced but loose divot.
>> A broken leg can result.
>>
>> HTH,
>> Malcolm
>
> What a load of tosh (with, of course, the greatest possible respect).
>
> You mean we should not replace divots on the fairways because of the risk 
> of a player playing his approach shot while  unwittingly having a footing 
> on a replaced but loose divot!!!
>
> On tees (and the same principles apply to fairway divots), the all too 
> uncommon 'common sense' must prevail between the two extremes:
> If, in the middle of winter, you remove 18" of prime turf to a depth of 
> 1", replace it.
> If, in the middle of summer, you remove 6" of loose grass with no roots, 
> do not replace it.
>
> Basically, if the divot, when replaced, is likely to take root, replace 
> it, otherwise, junk it.
>
> Just my humble opinion of course
>
>
>
Sorry Sam, I didn’t spot the "greatest possible respect"  above.

I did not say divots must not be replaced on fairways - only on tees.

It could be nonsense or it could be that you have just never heard of it.
Perhaps others can comment.

Unfortunately, I have been unable to turn up any really authoritative 
reference for you, to support what I said but I know of a number of golf 
clubs who have this rule of etiquette, even if not written down.

Tenterden Golf Club  www.tenterdengolfclub.co.uk for instance, do state 
among their requests to golfers:
"DIVOTS ON THE TEES
Use the soil/seed mixture to repair divot damage. Do not replace tee divots 
as this can cause players to slip."

So I am not entirely alone.
Although most references to replacing divots refer to the fairways it is 
difficult to find references stating categorically that they should not be 
replaced on the teeing ground.

Section I of the Rules of Golf does not go into that much detail but the EGU 
publication: Golf Etiquette - refers only to the replacement of divots 
"through the green", which of course excludes the teeing ground.

In the Scotsman there appeared an article on the maintenance of the Old 
Course which included the following:
"Taking a divot is an accepted part of golf but there is strict etiquette 
surrounding what to do when a hole is gouged out of a teeing area or fairway 
by a club.
On the tee, golfers are asked to repair divots by filling the offending 
hole, usually with sand.
On the fairways, players are asked to carefully retrieve the wedge-shaped 
divot, even if it has shattered into many pieces, and replace it from where 
it has been ripped.
The hope is that the grass will regrow in the exact spot."

I believe the notion that replacing divots on the teeing ground could be 
dangerous, arose after Richard Boxall broke his left leg on the teeing 
ground of the 411 yard 9th at Royal Birkdale when playing the third round of 
The Open there in 1991. Boxall’s accident was blamed on a replaced divot.

There is, I would imagine, much more torque on the left leg when playing a 
tee shot with a long club from a teeing ground than when playing second 
shots into greens and once playing through the green there can be other 
dangers underfoot to make the player more wary of his footing.

Meanwhile Sam, please use a tee peg when playing long holes so there will be 
fewer divots taken on those tees and if you play short holes without using 
tee pegs, please fill your divot hole with the seed/soil mix in the lidded 
box by the teeing ground which you always thought was for cigarette butts. 
;-)

Regards,
Malcolm

M L Wadsworth in :

>I did not say divots must not be replaced on fairways - only on tees.
<rest snipped in agreement>

Another perfect contribution, Malcolm!

Though I didn't know that it is for safety reasons, the demand 
"don't replace divots on teeing grounds" is well known over here, too.
There a loads of references on club homepages and others.

I learned it together with my first golf swings!

Ciao,

Paul

M L Wadsworth wrote:
> "Sam"  wrote in message 
> news:fetqja$bre$1$830fa79d@news.demon.co.uk...
>> "M L Wadsworth"  wrote in 
>> message news:kLadnVQnt8zP5pHanZ2dnUVZ8sqjnZ2d@bt.com...
>>> "MaggieB"  wrote in message 
>>> news:iYZOi.22299$HW.4715@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
>>>> Is it usual practice to drop off a wrong tee?
>> <snip>
>>> All players should know that divots are never replaced on teeing grounds 
>>> nor teeing areas.
>>> Any holes should be filled with seed & dressing mix if available to hand, 
>>> otherwise left to the green keepers to repair.
>>> The reason for this is the risk of a player playing his tee shot while 
>>> unwittingly having a footing on a replaced but loose divot.
>>> A broken leg can result.
>>>
>>> HTH,
>>> Malcolm
>> What a load of tosh (with, of course, the greatest possible respect).
>>
[clip]
>>
>> Just my humble opinion of course
>>
>>
>>
> Sorry Sam, I didn’t spot the "greatest possible respect"  above.
> 
>[clip]
> 
> I believe the notion that replacing divots on the teeing ground could be 
> dangerous, arose after Richard Boxall broke his left leg on the teeing 
> ground of the 411 yard 9th at Royal Birkdale when playing the third round of 
> The Open there in 1991. Boxall’s accident was blamed on a replaced divot.
> 

Sad to hear it of course, but was this an isolated incident or is there 
a record of such divot slipping happening frequently? 1991 would sound 
to me to be a bit recent for such a commonly held belief to become so 
widespread. I would imagine more injuries occur from slipping as a 
result of using soft spikes or worn out metal spikes on wet ground.

-- 
Durram

"Demetri (Durram)"  wrote in message 
news:fevm8v$2hv$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk...
>M L Wadsworth wrote:
>> "Sam"  wrote in message 
>> news:fetqja$bre$1$830fa79d@news.demon.co.uk...
>>> "M L Wadsworth"  wrote in 
>>> message news:kLadnVQnt8zP5pHanZ2dnUVZ8sqjnZ2d@bt.com...
>>>> "MaggieB"  wrote in message 
>>>> news:iYZOi.22299$HW.4715@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...
>> I believe the notion that replacing divots on the teeing ground could be 
>> dangerous, arose after Richard Boxall broke his left leg on the teeing 
>> ground of the 411 yard 9th at Royal Birkdale when playing the third round 
>> of The Open there in 1991. Boxall’s accident was blamed on a replaced 
>> divot.
>>
>
> Sad to hear it of course, but was this an isolated incident or is there a 
> record of such divot slipping happening frequently? 1991 would sound to me 
> to be a bit recent for such a commonly held belief to become so 
> widespread. I would imagine more injuries occur from slipping as a result 
> of using soft spikes or worn out metal spikes on wet ground.
>
> -- 
> Durram

I'm afraid I cannot tell you.  There is of course a lot of folk lore in 
golf.
AFAICR soft spikes were not around in 1991.

Soft spikes were developed for the Bermuda grasses used on American greens 
because professionals were complaining that metal spikes tended to tease up 
that type grass and the Rules did not permit repair on one's line of play.
I have never thought them appropriate in the UK as we generally do not have 
that type of green and with our wetter conditions, soft spikes can be 
treacherous.  They also tend to leave indentions in greens rather than spike 
holes which, although they recover reasonably quickly, can adversely affect 
the lines of play of the group(s) behind.
I seem to recall that on the Old Course it was "soft spikes preferred", but 
links courses tend to be drier than, say, parkland courses.
The Berkshire brought in a soft spikes rule about five or six years ago but 
I noted last time I played there, it has been withdrawn, possibly for safety 
reasons.

Regards,
Malcolm

On Sun, 14 Oct 2007 22:31:56 +0200, Paul Schmitz-Josten
 wrote:

> Peter Strauss in :
> 
> >> ...unless you bet for a beer as a guest like I did and the home player gets
> >> support from his "rules specialists": They advised that RoG 11-2 is only
> >> for the very first shot of a tournament, thus turning the bet against me
> >> :-(
> >> 
> >You were had.  
> 
> <uncomprehending furrow of brow>
> 
Paul: read Rule 11-2.
It says nothing about the first shot of a tournament.
It says, "Before a player makes his first stroke with any ball on the
teeing ground =====>>>>> of the hole being played, <<<<<===== the
tee-markers are deemed to be fixed."

If  you understood that, but were uncomprehending of my turn of
phrase, "You were had" means that you were
fooled/bamboozled/hoodwinked/deceived/lied to/taken cruel advantage
of.
OK, maybe not all of those, but a good many.

You may unfurrow now.
:-)

Peter

Peter Strauss in :

>> >You were had.  
>> 
>> <uncomprehending furrow of brow>
>> 
>Paul: read Rule 11-2.
<snip>

I think that _I_ understood it correctly.

>If  you understood that, but were uncomprehending of my turn of
>phrase, "You were had" means that you were
>fooled/bamboozled/hoodwinked/deceived/lied to/taken cruel advantage
>of.
>OK, maybe not all of those, but a good many.

I just felt like that.

<brow-knit-and-release>
There goes my lack of comprehension...

>You may unfurrow now.
>:-)

<pleased smile>

Thanks a lot for this little English lesson!

Ciao,

Paul

"M L Wadsworth"  wrote in 
message news:RoSdnbp5j4zeto7aRVnyjgA@bt.com...
>

> I did not say divots must not be replaced on fairways - only on tees.
>
> It could be nonsense or it could be that you have just never heard of it.
> Perhaps others can comment.
>
> Unfortunately, I have been unable to turn up any really authoritative 
> reference for you, to support what I said but I know of a number of golf 
> clubs who have this rule of etiquette, even if not written down.
>
> Tenterden Golf Club  www.tenterdengolfclub.co.uk for instance, do state 
> among their requests to golfers:
> "DIVOTS ON THE TEES
> Use the soil/seed mixture to repair divot damage. Do not replace tee 
> divots as this can cause players to slip."
>
> So I am not entirely alone.
> Although most references to replacing divots refer to the fairways it is 
> difficult to find references stating categorically that they should not be 
> replaced on the teeing ground.
>
> Section I of the Rules of Golf does not go into that much detail but the 
> EGU publication: Golf Etiquette - refers only to the replacement of divots 
> "through the green", which of course excludes the teeing ground.
>
> In the Scotsman there appeared an article on the maintenance of the Old 
> Course which included the following:
> "Taking a divot is an accepted part of golf but there is strict etiquette 
> surrounding what to do when a hole is gouged out of a teeing area or 
> fairway by a club.
> On the tee, golfers are asked to repair divots by filling the offending 
> hole, usually with sand.
> On the fairways, players are asked to carefully retrieve the wedge-shaped 
> divot, even if it has shattered into many pieces, and replace it from 
> where it has been ripped.
> The hope is that the grass will regrow in the exact spot."
>
> I believe the notion that replacing divots on the teeing ground could be 
> dangerous, arose after Richard Boxall broke his left leg on the teeing 
> ground of the 411 yard 9th at Royal Birkdale when playing the third round 
> of The Open there in 1991. Boxall’s accident was blamed on a replaced 
> divot.
>
> There is, I would imagine, much more torque on the left leg when playing a 
> tee shot with a long club from a teeing ground than when playing second 
> shots into greens and once playing through the green there can be other 
> dangers underfoot to make the player more wary of his footing.
>
> Meanwhile Sam, please use a tee peg when playing long holes so there will 
> be fewer divots taken on those tees and if you play short holes without 
> using tee pegs, please fill your divot hole with the seed/soil mix in the 
> lidded box by the teeing ground which you always thought was for cigarette 
> butts. ;-)
>
> Regards,
> Malcolm
>

There's also the law of averages to take into consideration.

On the tee there are a large number of divots very close together.

On the fairway the chances of you taking your stance on someone elses divot 
that hasn't already re-established itself is virtually nil.


Stephen