On Friday my brother and I played our usual needle match and at the 6th hole
I drove my ball into a stream that crosses at right angles to the fairway.
The stream is about 50 metres from the green
The stream has the marker poles along its sides but not along the top of the
bank that runs down to the stream.  This bank slopes over a distance of
about 7 metres.
Normally we lift and drop back on the fairway clear of the bank but with the
hard ground that means playing a difficult pitch shot off the hard fairway.
I decided to drop my ball on the bank about 3 club lengths from the stream
away from the green.
The ball ran down the slope and back into the stream.
I did this twice and then placed the ball on the slope at the same place as
I had previously dropped it.
Am I correct in counting only 1 penalty shot for taking the ball out and
placing it or must I count 3 penalty shots, 2 for dropping the ball and 1
for placing it.
In fact can anyone tell me if I am entitled to place the ball when it is
inevitable that it will roll into the stream?  Note that the stream is at
right angles to the line of play and that the posts are not at the top of
the slope.
Thank you.

"Stewart"  wrote in message 
news:464b5445$0$4826$8a667849@news.ak47.org...
> On Friday my brother and I played our usual needle match and at the 6th 
> hole
> I drove my ball into a stream that crosses at right angles to the fairway.
> The stream is about 50 metres from the green
> The stream has the marker poles along its sides but not along the top of 
> the
> bank that runs down to the stream.  This bank slopes over a distance of
> about 7 metres.
> Normally we lift and drop back on the fairway clear of the bank but with 
> the
> hard ground that means playing a difficult pitch shot off the hard 
> fairway.
> I decided to drop my ball on the bank about 3 club lengths from the stream
> away from the green.
> The ball ran down the slope and back into the stream.
> I did this twice and then placed the ball on the slope at the same place 
> as
> I had previously dropped it.
> Am I correct in counting only 1 penalty shot for taking the ball out and
> placing it or must I count 3 penalty shots, 2 for dropping the ball and 1
> for placing it.
> In fact can anyone tell me if I am entitled to place the ball when it is
> inevitable that it will roll into the stream?  Note that the stream is at
> right angles to the line of play and that the posts are not at the top of
> the slope.
> Thank you.
>
>
Stewart,

There are four issues:
#1 Your ball was in a water hazard and therefore you were entitled to drop a 
ball (not necessarily the same ball) outside the hazard under penalty of one 
stroke. when dropping, you were required to drop outside the hazard, at a 
spot in line with the hole and where the ball last crossed the margin of the 
hazard, keeping the hazard between you and the putting green.  You were 
entitled to drop back as far as you wished.  The full procedure is set out 
in Rule 26-1b.

#2 If a ball dropped outside a hazard, rolls into a hazard, it must be 
re-dropped (Rule 20-2c (i)).

#3 If a ball correctly dropped, is re-dropped and comes to rest where a 
re-drop would again be required, the ball is now placed where the ball first 
struck a part of the course on the second drop (Rule 20-2c. Penultimate 
paragraph before the Note.)  There is no additional penalty if a ball has to 
be re-dropped or placed.

It would seem you did everything correctly save for one query that I have.

It would seem from your description that the stakes marking the water hazard 
were in the wrong place.  They were down by the water's edge instead of 
where the ground started to fall towards the stream.  When you dropped on 
the downward slope to the hazard, you were probaly dropping in the hazard 
itself, in breach of Rule 26-1b, because of the wrong placement of the 
stakes.
When stakes are wrongly placed the player is entitled, and indeed required, 
to ignore the stakes and play by the natural margin of the hazard (Decision 
26/2).
This may have resulted in your playing from a wrong place, but since the 
competition with your brother is now closed and you were unaware of the 
breach, you incur no additional penalty and may keep the money!!

HTH,
Malcolm

"M L Wadsworth"  wrote in
news:upCdnUcGxN7D4dbbRVnytwA@bt.com: 
 
> It would seem from your description that the stakes marking the water
> hazard were in the wrong place.  They were down by the water's edge
> instead of where the ground started to fall towards the stream.

What about if the ground falls toward the hazard for the entirety of the 
fairway? ie a downhill fairway with a hazard at the bottom? Or in this 
case, where the start of the slope is several yards from the edge of the 
water? and how shallow does the slope have to be before it's not part of 
the hazard?

LHC.

The LHC wrote:
> "M L Wadsworth"  wrote in
> news:upCdnUcGxN7D4dbbRVnytwA@bt.com: 
>  
> 
>>It would seem from your description that the stakes marking the water
>>hazard were in the wrong place.  They were down by the water's edge
>>instead of where the ground started to fall towards the stream.
> 
> 
> What about if the ground falls toward the hazard for the entirety of the 
> fairway? ie a downhill fairway with a hazard at the bottom? Or in this 
> case, where the start of the slope is several yards from the edge of the 
> water? and how shallow does the slope have to be before it's not part of 
> the hazard?
> 
> LHC.

Look for the eroded edge of the natural depression containing the 
water......this is generally regarded as the natural limit of the hazard.

The stakes should be located close to and are always deemed to be within 
the margin of the hazard........relief options under Rule 26 usually 
relate to the point of entry on this margin. If there are stakes */and/* 
lines the stakes are only there to indicate (by their colour) the nature 
of the water hazard as it relates to the Rules of Golf, and the lines 
actually define the margin as determined by the Committee who should 
place them close to and along the natural limits of the hazard. It is a 
question of fact as to where the 'natural' margin lies; the Rules of 
Golf explain that the margin is where the 'ground breaks down to form 
the depression containing the water'. Golf courses often have landscaped 
slopes leading down into water hazards which will disguise or even 
obliterate the edge of an obvious depression containing the water. If 
there is no line or obvious margin then the line of the stakes itself 
should always be taken as the limit of the margin. There is a slightly 
more illogical but common case where there is no line and the stakes are 
placed /outside/ an obvious natural margin....there are plenty of 
arguments about where the margin lies between these stakes; a straight 
line between the stakes is irrelevant (only applies to boundary stakes)!

cheers
david

david s-a wrote:
> The LHC wrote:
>> "M L Wadsworth"  wrote in
>> news:upCdnUcGxN7D4dbbRVnytwA@bt.com:  
>>
>>> It would seem from your description that the stakes marking the water
>>> hazard were in the wrong place.  They were down by the water's edge
>>> instead of where the ground started to fall towards the stream.
>>
>>
>> What about if the ground falls toward the hazard for the entirety of 
>> the fairway? ie a downhill fairway with a hazard at the bottom? Or in 
>> this case, where the start of the slope is several yards from the edge 
>> of the water? and how shallow does the slope have to be before it's 
>> not part of the hazard?
>>
>> LHC.
> 
> Look for the eroded edge of the natural depression containing the 
> water......this is generally regarded as the natural limit of the hazard.
> 
> The stakes should be located close to and are always deemed to be within 
> the margin of the hazard........relief options under Rule 26 usually 
> relate to the point of entry on this margin. If there are stakes */and/* 
> lines the stakes are only there to indicate (by their colour) the nature 
> of the water hazard as it relates to the Rules of Golf, and the lines 
> actually define the margin as determined by the Committee who should 
> place them close to and along the natural limits of the hazard. It is a 
> question of fact as to where the 'natural' margin lies; the Rules of 
> Golf explain that the margin is where the 'ground breaks down to form 
> the depression containing the water'. Golf courses often have landscaped 
> slopes leading down into water hazards which will disguise or even 
> obliterate the edge of an obvious depression containing the water. If 
> there is no line or obvious margin then the line of the stakes itself 
> should always be taken as the limit of the margin. There is a slightly 
> more illogical but common case where there is no line and the stakes are 
> placed /outside/ an obvious natural margin....there are plenty of 
> arguments about where the margin lies between these stakes; a straight 
> line between the stakes is irrelevant (only applies to boundary stakes)!

By way of interest only my club's course has the apparent identical type of 
hazard across two fairways completely and the point has been raised many times 
"What" (as David quotes above)" is the point where the ground breaks down to 
form the depression containing the water?"

Under usual conditions the stream is about two feet wide but in conditions such 
as the last couple of weeks it is a roaring torrent some six feet wide, covering 
the normal shallow  break point. So the committee, in their wisdom ( and I 
personally agree with it) decree and mark the water hazard from the top of the 
gully which makes it some 20 yards wide. The reason for this is that so many 
balls enter the hazard and are possibly lost. Rule 26 allows a second ball to be 
used without finding the original, thus stopping time wasting to search for the 
original ball and/or returning to a point where the ball was last struck.

With the original poster's course method and ours then problems can be seen to 
be approached in two different ways. Which is the better? Who knows.

Having read LHC's post our first hole proceeds to slope up the fairway for a 
further fifty yards from the gully and his point then becomes valid too. Each 
course needs to be clearly marked.

JPW

Thank you for the answer, I am glad to know that I was correct.  It is
an interesting point about the location of the stakes.
When any of us see our ball rolling over the top of the slope towards
the water we know that it will end up in the stream, this would seem
to indicate that the stakes should really be at the top of the slope.
I am off now on a cruise for 2 weeks so shall not see any more
correspondence.

Pat Williams wrote:

> Under usual conditions the stream is about two feet wide but in 
> conditions such as the last couple of weeks it is a roaring torrent some 
> six feet wide, covering the normal shallow  break point. So the 
> committee, in their wisdom ( and I personally agree with it) decree and 
> mark the water hazard from the top of the gully which makes it some 20 
> yards wide. The reason for this is that so many balls enter the hazard 
> and are possibly lost. 

Is it too complex to explain that the Rules of Golf provide that a ball 
lost in 'overflow' of this nature are (in equity) deemed to be lost in 
the water hazard...whether or not the water is inside or outside the 
'natural' or marked limit of the hazard? (See Decision 1-4/7).

cheers
david

"Stewart"  wrote in message 
news:464b5445$0$4826$8a667849@news.ak47.org...
> On Friday my brother and I played our usual needle match and at the 6th 
> hole
> I drove my ball into a stream that crosses at right angles to the fairway.
> The stream is about 50 metres from the green
> The stream has the marker poles along its sides but not along the top of 
> the
> bank that runs down to the stream.  This bank slopes over a distance of
> about 7 metres.
> Normally we lift and drop back on the fairway clear of the bank but with 
> the
> hard ground that means playing a difficult pitch shot off the hard 
> fairway.
> I decided to drop my ball on the bank about 3 club lengths from the stream
> away from the green.
> The ball ran down the slope and back into the stream.
> I did this twice and then placed the ball on the slope at the same place 
> as
> I had previously dropped it.
> Am I correct in counting only 1 penalty shot for taking the ball out and
> placing it or must I count 3 penalty shots, 2 for dropping the ball and 1
> for placing it.
> In fact can anyone tell me if I am entitled to place the ball when it is
> inevitable that it will roll into the stream?  Note that the stream is at
> right angles to the line of play and that the posts are not at the top of
> the slope.
> Thank you.
>
>
Stewart,

There are four issues:
#1 Your ball was in a water hazard and therefore you were entitled to drop a 
ball (not necessarily the same ball) outside the hazard under penalty of one 
stroke. when dropping, you were required to drop outside the hazard, at a 
spot in line with the hole and where the ball last crossed the margin of the 
hazard, keeping the hazard between you and the putting green.  You were 
entitled to drop back as far as you wished.  The full procedure is set out 
in Rule 26-1b.

#2 If a ball dropped outside a hazard, rolls into a hazard, it must be 
re-dropped (Rule 20-2c (i)).

#3 If a ball correctly dropped, is re-dropped and comes to rest where a 
re-drop would again be required, the ball is now placed where the ball first 
struck a part of the course on the second drop (Rule 20-2c. Penultimate 
paragraph before the Note.)  There is no additional penalty if a ball has to 
be re-dropped or placed.

It would seem you did everything correctly save for one query that I have.

It would seem from your description that the stakes marking the water hazard 
were in the wrong place.  They were down by the water's edge instead of 
where the ground started to fall towards the stream.  When you dropped on 
the downward slope to the hazard, you were probaly dropping in the hazard 
itself, in breach of Rule 26-1b, because of the wrong placement of the 
stakes.
When stakes are wrongly placed the player is entitled, and indeed required, 
to ignore the stakes and play by the natural margin of the hazard (Decision 
26/2).
This may have resulted in your playing from a wrong place, but since the 
competition with your brother is now closed and you were unaware of the 
breach, you incur no additional penalty and may keep the money!!

HTH,
Malcolm

"M L Wadsworth"  wrote in
news:upCdnUcGxN7D4dbbRVnytwA@bt.com: 
 
> It would seem from your description that the stakes marking the water
> hazard were in the wrong place.  They were down by the water's edge
> instead of where the ground started to fall towards the stream.

What about if the ground falls toward the hazard for the entirety of the 
fairway? ie a downhill fairway with a hazard at the bottom? Or in this 
case, where the start of the slope is several yards from the edge of the 
water? and how shallow does the slope have to be before it's not part of 
the hazard?

LHC.

The LHC wrote:
> "M L Wadsworth"  wrote in
> news:upCdnUcGxN7D4dbbRVnytwA@bt.com: 
>  
> 
>>It would seem from your description that the stakes marking the water
>>hazard were in the wrong place.  They were down by the water's edge
>>instead of where the ground started to fall towards the stream.
> 
> 
> What about if the ground falls toward the hazard for the entirety of the 
> fairway? ie a downhill fairway with a hazard at the bottom? Or in this 
> case, where the start of the slope is several yards from the edge of the 
> water? and how shallow does the slope have to be before it's not part of 
> the hazard?
> 
> LHC.

Look for the eroded edge of the natural depression containing the 
water......this is generally regarded as the natural limit of the hazard.

The stakes should be located close to and are always deemed to be within 
the margin of the hazard........relief options under Rule 26 usually 
relate to the point of entry on this margin. If there are stakes */and/* 
lines the stakes are only there to indicate (by their colour) the nature 
of the water hazard as it relates to the Rules of Golf, and the lines 
actually define the margin as determined by the Committee who should 
place them close to and along the natural limits of the hazard. It is a 
question of fact as to where the 'natural' margin lies; the Rules of 
Golf explain that the margin is where the 'ground breaks down to form 
the depression containing the water'. Golf courses often have landscaped 
slopes leading down into water hazards which will disguise or even 
obliterate the edge of an obvious depression containing the water. If 
there is no line or obvious margin then the line of the stakes itself 
should always be taken as the limit of the margin. There is a slightly 
more illogical but common case where there is no line and the stakes are 
placed /outside/ an obvious natural margin....there are plenty of 
arguments about where the margin lies between these stakes; a straight 
line between the stakes is irrelevant (only applies to boundary stakes)!

cheers
david

david s-a wrote:
> The LHC wrote:
>> "M L Wadsworth"  wrote in
>> news:upCdnUcGxN7D4dbbRVnytwA@bt.com:  
>>
>>> It would seem from your description that the stakes marking the water
>>> hazard were in the wrong place.  They were down by the water's edge
>>> instead of where the ground started to fall towards the stream.
>>
>>
>> What about if the ground falls toward the hazard for the entirety of 
>> the fairway? ie a downhill fairway with a hazard at the bottom? Or in 
>> this case, where the start of the slope is several yards from the edge 
>> of the water? and how shallow does the slope have to be before it's 
>> not part of the hazard?
>>
>> LHC.
> 
> Look for the eroded edge of the natural depression containing the 
> water......this is generally regarded as the natural limit of the hazard.
> 
> The stakes should be located close to and are always deemed to be within 
> the margin of the hazard........relief options under Rule 26 usually 
> relate to the point of entry on this margin. If there are stakes */and/* 
> lines the stakes are only there to indicate (by their colour) the nature 
> of the water hazard as it relates to the Rules of Golf, and the lines 
> actually define the margin as determined by the Committee who should 
> place them close to and along the natural limits of the hazard. It is a 
> question of fact as to where the 'natural' margin lies; the Rules of 
> Golf explain that the margin is where the 'ground breaks down to form 
> the depression containing the water'. Golf courses often have landscaped 
> slopes leading down into water hazards which will disguise or even 
> obliterate the edge of an obvious depression containing the water. If 
> there is no line or obvious margin then the line of the stakes itself 
> should always be taken as the limit of the margin. There is a slightly 
> more illogical but common case where there is no line and the stakes are 
> placed /outside/ an obvious natural margin....there are plenty of 
> arguments about where the margin lies between these stakes; a straight 
> line between the stakes is irrelevant (only applies to boundary stakes)!

By way of interest only my club's course has the apparent identical type of 
hazard across two fairways completely and the point has been raised many times 
"What" (as David quotes above)" is the point where the ground breaks down to 
form the depression containing the water?"

Under usual conditions the stream is about two feet wide but in conditions such 
as the last couple of weeks it is a roaring torrent some six feet wide, covering 
the normal shallow  break point. So the committee, in their wisdom ( and I 
personally agree with it) decree and mark the water hazard from the top of the 
gully which makes it some 20 yards wide. The reason for this is that so many 
balls enter the hazard and are possibly lost. Rule 26 allows a second ball to be 
used without finding the original, thus stopping time wasting to search for the 
original ball and/or returning to a point where the ball was last struck.

With the original poster's course method and ours then problems can be seen to 
be approached in two different ways. Which is the better? Who knows.

Having read LHC's post our first hole proceeds to slope up the fairway for a 
further fifty yards from the gully and his point then becomes valid too. Each 
course needs to be clearly marked.

JPW

Thank you for the answer, I am glad to know that I was correct.  It is
an interesting point about the location of the stakes.
When any of us see our ball rolling over the top of the slope towards
the water we know that it will end up in the stream, this would seem
to indicate that the stakes should really be at the top of the slope.
I am off now on a cruise for 2 weeks so shall not see any more
correspondence.

Pat Williams wrote:

> Under usual conditions the stream is about two feet wide but in 
> conditions such as the last couple of weeks it is a roaring torrent some 
> six feet wide, covering the normal shallow  break point. So the 
> committee, in their wisdom ( and I personally agree with it) decree and 
> mark the water hazard from the top of the gully which makes it some 20 
> yards wide. The reason for this is that so many balls enter the hazard 
> and are possibly lost. 

Is it too complex to explain that the Rules of Golf provide that a ball 
lost in 'overflow' of this nature are (in equity) deemed to be lost in 
the water hazard...whether or not the water is inside or outside the 
'natural' or marked limit of the hazard? (See Decision 1-4/7).

cheers
david

"Stewart"  wrote in message 
news:464b5445$0$4826$8a667849@news.ak47.org...
> On Friday my brother and I played our usual needle match and at the 6th 
> hole
> I drove my ball into a stream that crosses at right angles to the fairway.
> The stream is about 50 metres from the green
> The stream has the marker poles along its sides but not along the top of 
> the
> bank that runs down to the stream.  This bank slopes over a distance of
> about 7 metres.
> Normally we lift and drop back on the fairway clear of the bank but with 
> the
> hard ground that means playing a difficult pitch shot off the hard 
> fairway.
> I decided to drop my ball on the bank about 3 club lengths from the stream
> away from the green.
> The ball ran down the slope and back into the stream.
> I did this twice and then placed the ball on the slope at the same place 
> as
> I had previously dropped it.
> Am I correct in counting only 1 penalty shot for taking the ball out and
> placing it or must I count 3 penalty shots, 2 for dropping the ball and 1
> for placing it.
> In fact can anyone tell me if I am entitled to place the ball when it is
> inevitable that it will roll into the stream?  Note that the stream is at
> right angles to the line of play and that the posts are not at the top of
> the slope.
> Thank you.
>
>
Stewart,

There are four issues:
#1 Your ball was in a water hazard and therefore you were entitled to drop a 
ball (not necessarily the same ball) outside the hazard under penalty of one 
stroke. when dropping, you were required to drop outside the hazard, at a 
spot in line with the hole and where the ball last crossed the margin of the 
hazard, keeping the hazard between you and the putting green.  You were 
entitled to drop back as far as you wished.  The full procedure is set out 
in Rule 26-1b.

#2 If a ball dropped outside a hazard, rolls into a hazard, it must be 
re-dropped (Rule 20-2c (i)).

#3 If a ball correctly dropped, is re-dropped and comes to rest where a 
re-drop would again be required, the ball is now placed where the ball first 
struck a part of the course on the second drop (Rule 20-2c. Penultimate 
paragraph before the Note.)  There is no additional penalty if a ball has to 
be re-dropped or placed.

It would seem you did everything correctly save for one query that I have.

It would seem from your description that the stakes marking the water hazard 
were in the wrong place.  They were down by the water's edge instead of 
where the ground started to fall towards the stream.  When you dropped on 
the downward slope to the hazard, you were probaly dropping in the hazard 
itself, in breach of Rule 26-1b, because of the wrong placement of the 
stakes.
When stakes are wrongly placed the player is entitled, and indeed required, 
to ignore the stakes and play by the natural margin of the hazard (Decision 
26/2).
This may have resulted in your playing from a wrong place, but since the 
competition with your brother is now closed and you were unaware of the 
breach, you incur no additional penalty and may keep the money!!

HTH,
Malcolm

"M L Wadsworth"  wrote in
news:upCdnUcGxN7D4dbbRVnytwA@bt.com: 
 
> It would seem from your description that the stakes marking the water
> hazard were in the wrong place.  They were down by the water's edge
> instead of where the ground started to fall towards the stream.

What about if the ground falls toward the hazard for the entirety of the 
fairway? ie a downhill fairway with a hazard at the bottom? Or in this 
case, where the start of the slope is several yards from the edge of the 
water? and how shallow does the slope have to be before it's not part of 
the hazard?

LHC.

The LHC wrote:
> "M L Wadsworth"  wrote in
> news:upCdnUcGxN7D4dbbRVnytwA@bt.com: 
>  
> 
>>It would seem from your description that the stakes marking the water
>>hazard were in the wrong place.  They were down by the water's edge
>>instead of where the ground started to fall towards the stream.
> 
> 
> What about if the ground falls toward the hazard for the entirety of the 
> fairway? ie a downhill fairway with a hazard at the bottom? Or in this 
> case, where the start of the slope is several yards from the edge of the 
> water? and how shallow does the slope have to be before it's not part of 
> the hazard?
> 
> LHC.

Look for the eroded edge of the natural depression containing the 
water......this is generally regarded as the natural limit of the hazard.

The stakes should be located close to and are always deemed to be within 
the margin of the hazard........relief options under Rule 26 usually 
relate to the point of entry on this margin. If there are stakes */and/* 
lines the stakes are only there to indicate (by their colour) the nature 
of the water hazard as it relates to the Rules of Golf, and the lines 
actually define the margin as determined by the Committee who should 
place them close to and along the natural limits of the hazard. It is a 
question of fact as to where the 'natural' margin lies; the Rules of 
Golf explain that the margin is where the 'ground breaks down to form 
the depression containing the water'. Golf courses often have landscaped 
slopes leading down into water hazards which will disguise or even 
obliterate the edge of an obvious depression containing the water. If 
there is no line or obvious margin then the line of the stakes itself 
should always be taken as the limit of the margin. There is a slightly 
more illogical but common case where there is no line and the stakes are 
placed /outside/ an obvious natural margin....there are plenty of 
arguments about where the margin lies between these stakes; a straight 
line between the stakes is irrelevant (only applies to boundary stakes)!

cheers
david

david s-a wrote:
> The LHC wrote:
>> "M L Wadsworth"  wrote in
>> news:upCdnUcGxN7D4dbbRVnytwA@bt.com:  
>>
>>> It would seem from your description that the stakes marking the water
>>> hazard were in the wrong place.  They were down by the water's edge
>>> instead of where the ground started to fall towards the stream.
>>
>>
>> What about if the ground falls toward the hazard for the entirety of 
>> the fairway? ie a downhill fairway with a hazard at the bottom? Or in 
>> this case, where the start of the slope is several yards from the edge 
>> of the water? and how shallow does the slope have to be before it's 
>> not part of the hazard?
>>
>> LHC.
> 
> Look for the eroded edge of the natural depression containing the 
> water......this is generally regarded as the natural limit of the hazard.
> 
> The stakes should be located close to and are always deemed to be within 
> the margin of the hazard........relief options under Rule 26 usually 
> relate to the point of entry on this margin. If there are stakes */and/* 
> lines the stakes are only there to indicate (by their colour) the nature 
> of the water hazard as it relates to the Rules of Golf, and the lines 
> actually define the margin as determined by the Committee who should 
> place them close to and along the natural limits of the hazard. It is a 
> question of fact as to where the 'natural' margin lies; the Rules of 
> Golf explain that the margin is where the 'ground breaks down to form 
> the depression containing the water'. Golf courses often have landscaped 
> slopes leading down into water hazards which will disguise or even 
> obliterate the edge of an obvious depression containing the water. If 
> there is no line or obvious margin then the line of the stakes itself 
> should always be taken as the limit of the margin. There is a slightly 
> more illogical but common case where there is no line and the stakes are 
> placed /outside/ an obvious natural margin....there are plenty of 
> arguments about where the margin lies between these stakes; a straight 
> line between the stakes is irrelevant (only applies to boundary stakes)!

By way of interest only my club's course has the apparent identical type of 
hazard across two fairways completely and the point has been raised many times 
"What" (as David quotes above)" is the point where the ground breaks down to 
form the depression containing the water?"

Under usual conditions the stream is about two feet wide but in conditions such 
as the last couple of weeks it is a roaring torrent some six feet wide, covering 
the normal shallow  break point. So the committee, in their wisdom ( and I 
personally agree with it) decree and mark the water hazard from the top of the 
gully which makes it some 20 yards wide. The reason for this is that so many 
balls enter the hazard and are possibly lost. Rule 26 allows a second ball to be 
used without finding the original, thus stopping time wasting to search for the 
original ball and/or returning to a point where the ball was last struck.

With the original poster's course method and ours then problems can be seen to 
be approached in two different ways. Which is the better? Who knows.

Having read LHC's post our first hole proceeds to slope up the fairway for a 
further fifty yards from the gully and his point then becomes valid too. Each 
course needs to be clearly marked.

JPW

Thank you for the answer, I am glad to know that I was correct.  It is
an interesting point about the location of the stakes.
When any of us see our ball rolling over the top of the slope towards
the water we know that it will end up in the stream, this would seem
to indicate that the stakes should really be at the top of the slope.
I am off now on a cruise for 2 weeks so shall not see any more
correspondence.

Pat Williams wrote:

> Under usual conditions the stream is about two feet wide but in 
> conditions such as the last couple of weeks it is a roaring torrent some 
> six feet wide, covering the normal shallow  break point. So the 
> committee, in their wisdom ( and I personally agree with it) decree and 
> mark the water hazard from the top of the gully which makes it some 20 
> yards wide. The reason for this is that so many balls enter the hazard 
> and are possibly lost. 

Is it too complex to explain that the Rules of Golf provide that a ball 
lost in 'overflow' of this nature are (in equity) deemed to be lost in 
the water hazard...whether or not the water is inside or outside the 
'natural' or marked limit of the hazard? (See Decision 1-4/7).

cheers
david

"Stewart"  wrote in message 
news:464b5445$0$4826$8a667849@news.ak47.org...
> On Friday my brother and I played our usual needle match and at the 6th 
> hole
> I drove my ball into a stream that crosses at right angles to the fairway.
> The stream is about 50 metres from the green
> The stream has the marker poles along its sides but not along the top of 
> the
> bank that runs down to the stream.  This bank slopes over a distance of
> about 7 metres.
> Normally we lift and drop back on the fairway clear of the bank but with 
> the
> hard ground that means playing a difficult pitch shot off the hard 
> fairway.
> I decided to drop my ball on the bank about 3 club lengths from the stream
> away from the green.
> The ball ran down the slope and back into the stream.
> I did this twice and then placed the ball on the slope at the same place 
> as
> I had previously dropped it.
> Am I correct in counting only 1 penalty shot for taking the ball out and
> placing it or must I count 3 penalty shots, 2 for dropping the ball and 1
> for placing it.
> In fact can anyone tell me if I am entitled to place the ball when it is
> inevitable that it will roll into the stream?  Note that the stream is at
> right angles to the line of play and that the posts are not at the top of
> the slope.
> Thank you.
>
>
Stewart,

There are four issues:
#1 Your ball was in a water hazard and therefore you were entitled to drop a 
ball (not necessarily the same ball) outside the hazard under penalty of one 
stroke. when dropping, you were required to drop outside the hazard, at a 
spot in line with the hole and where the ball last crossed the margin of the 
hazard, keeping the hazard between you and the putting green.  You were 
entitled to drop back as far as you wished.  The full procedure is set out 
in Rule 26-1b.

#2 If a ball dropped outside a hazard, rolls into a hazard, it must be 
re-dropped (Rule 20-2c (i)).

#3 If a ball correctly dropped, is re-dropped and comes to rest where a 
re-drop would again be required, the ball is now placed where the ball first 
struck a part of the course on the second drop (Rule 20-2c. Penultimate 
paragraph before the Note.)  There is no additional penalty if a ball has to 
be re-dropped or placed.

It would seem you did everything correctly save for one query that I have.

It would seem from your description that the stakes marking the water hazard 
were in the wrong place.  They were down by the water's edge instead of 
where the ground started to fall towards the stream.  When you dropped on 
the downward slope to the hazard, you were probaly dropping in the hazard 
itself, in breach of Rule 26-1b, because of the wrong placement of the 
stakes.
When stakes are wrongly placed the player is entitled, and indeed required, 
to ignore the stakes and play by the natural margin of the hazard (Decision 
26/2).
This may have resulted in your playing from a wrong place, but since the 
competition with your brother is now closed and you were unaware of the 
breach, you incur no additional penalty and may keep the money!!

HTH,
Malcolm

"M L Wadsworth"  wrote in
news:upCdnUcGxN7D4dbbRVnytwA@bt.com: 
 
> It would seem from your description that the stakes marking the water
> hazard were in the wrong place.  They were down by the water's edge
> instead of where the ground started to fall towards the stream.

What about if the ground falls toward the hazard for the entirety of the 
fairway? ie a downhill fairway with a hazard at the bottom? Or in this 
case, where the start of the slope is several yards from the edge of the 
water? and how shallow does the slope have to be before it's not part of 
the hazard?

LHC.

The LHC wrote:
> "M L Wadsworth"  wrote in
> news:upCdnUcGxN7D4dbbRVnytwA@bt.com: 
>  
> 
>>It would seem from your description that the stakes marking the water
>>hazard were in the wrong place.  They were down by the water's edge
>>instead of where the ground started to fall towards the stream.
> 
> 
> What about if the ground falls toward the hazard for the entirety of the 
> fairway? ie a downhill fairway with a hazard at the bottom? Or in this 
> case, where the start of the slope is several yards from the edge of the 
> water? and how shallow does the slope have to be before it's not part of 
> the hazard?
> 
> LHC.

Look for the eroded edge of the natural depression containing the 
water......this is generally regarded as the natural limit of the hazard.

The stakes should be located close to and are always deemed to be within 
the margin of the hazard........relief options under Rule 26 usually 
relate to the point of entry on this margin. If there are stakes */and/* 
lines the stakes are only there to indicate (by their colour) the nature 
of the water hazard as it relates to the Rules of Golf, and the lines 
actually define the margin as determined by the Committee who should 
place them close to and along the natural limits of the hazard. It is a 
question of fact as to where the 'natural' margin lies; the Rules of 
Golf explain that the margin is where the 'ground breaks down to form 
the depression containing the water'. Golf courses often have landscaped 
slopes leading down into water hazards which will disguise or even 
obliterate the edge of an obvious depression containing the water. If 
there is no line or obvious margin then the line of the stakes itself 
should always be taken as the limit of the margin. There is a slightly 
more illogical but common case where there is no line and the stakes are 
placed /outside/ an obvious natural margin....there are plenty of 
arguments about where the margin lies between these stakes; a straight 
line between the stakes is irrelevant (only applies to boundary stakes)!

cheers
david

david s-a wrote:
> The LHC wrote:
>> "M L Wadsworth"  wrote in
>> news:upCdnUcGxN7D4dbbRVnytwA@bt.com:  
>>
>>> It would seem from your description that the stakes marking the water
>>> hazard were in the wrong place.  They were down by the water's edge
>>> instead of where the ground started to fall towards the stream.
>>
>>
>> What about if the ground falls toward the hazard for the entirety of 
>> the fairway? ie a downhill fairway with a hazard at the bottom? Or in 
>> this case, where the start of the slope is several yards from the edge 
>> of the water? and how shallow does the slope have to be before it's 
>> not part of the hazard?
>>
>> LHC.
> 
> Look for the eroded edge of the natural depression containing the 
> water......this is generally regarded as the natural limit of the hazard.
> 
> The stakes should be located close to and are always deemed to be within 
> the margin of the hazard........relief options under Rule 26 usually 
> relate to the point of entry on this margin. If there are stakes */and/* 
> lines the stakes are only there to indicate (by their colour) the nature 
> of the water hazard as it relates to the Rules of Golf, and the lines 
> actually define the margin as determined by the Committee who should 
> place them close to and along the natural limits of the hazard. It is a 
> question of fact as to where the 'natural' margin lies; the Rules of 
> Golf explain that the margin is where the 'ground breaks down to form 
> the depression containing the water'. Golf courses often have landscaped 
> slopes leading down into water hazards which will disguise or even 
> obliterate the edge of an obvious depression containing the water. If 
> there is no line or obvious margin then the line of the stakes itself 
> should always be taken as the limit of the margin. There is a slightly 
> more illogical but common case where there is no line and the stakes are 
> placed /outside/ an obvious natural margin....there are plenty of 
> arguments about where the margin lies between these stakes; a straight 
> line between the stakes is irrelevant (only applies to boundary stakes)!

By way of interest only my club's course has the apparent identical type of 
hazard across two fairways completely and the point has been raised many times 
"What" (as David quotes above)" is the point where the ground breaks down to 
form the depression containing the water?"

Under usual conditions the stream is about two feet wide but in conditions such 
as the last couple of weeks it is a roaring torrent some six feet wide, covering 
the normal shallow  break point. So the committee, in their wisdom ( and I 
personally agree with it) decree and mark the water hazard from the top of the 
gully which makes it some 20 yards wide. The reason for this is that so many 
balls enter the hazard and are possibly lost. Rule 26 allows a second ball to be 
used without finding the original, thus stopping time wasting to search for the 
original ball and/or returning to a point where the ball was last struck.

With the original poster's course method and ours then problems can be seen to 
be approached in two different ways. Which is the better? Who knows.

Having read LHC's post our first hole proceeds to slope up the fairway for a 
further fifty yards from the gully and his point then becomes valid too. Each 
course needs to be clearly marked.

JPW

Thank you for the answer, I am glad to know that I was correct.  It is
an interesting point about the location of the stakes.
When any of us see our ball rolling over the top of the slope towards
the water we know that it will end up in the stream, this would seem
to indicate that the stakes should really be at the top of the slope.
I am off now on a cruise for 2 weeks so shall not see any more
correspondence.

Pat Williams wrote:

> Under usual conditions the stream is about two feet wide but in 
> conditions such as the last couple of weeks it is a roaring torrent some 
> six feet wide, covering the normal shallow  break point. So the 
> committee, in their wisdom ( and I personally agree with it) decree and 
> mark the water hazard from the top of the gully which makes it some 20 
> yards wide. The reason for this is that so many balls enter the hazard 
> and are possibly lost. 

Is it too complex to explain that the Rules of Golf provide that a ball 
lost in 'overflow' of this nature are (in equity) deemed to be lost in 
the water hazard...whether or not the water is inside or outside the 
'natural' or marked limit of the hazard? (See Decision 1-4/7).

cheers
david

"Stewart"  wrote in message 
news:464b5445$0$4826$8a667849@news.ak47.org...
> On Friday my brother and I played our usual needle match and at the 6th 
> hole
> I drove my ball into a stream that crosses at right angles to the fairway.
> The stream is about 50 metres from the green
> The stream has the marker poles along its sides but not along the top of 
> the
> bank that runs down to the stream.  This bank slopes over a distance of
> about 7 metres.
> Normally we lift and drop back on the fairway clear of the bank but with 
> the
> hard ground that means playing a difficult pitch shot off the hard 
> fairway.
> I decided to drop my ball on the bank about 3 club lengths from the stream
> away from the green.
> The ball ran down the slope and back into the stream.
> I did this twice and then placed the ball on the slope at the same place 
> as
> I had previously dropped it.
> Am I correct in counting only 1 penalty shot for taking the ball out and
> placing it or must I count 3 penalty shots, 2 for dropping the ball and 1
> for placing it.
> In fact can anyone tell me if I am entitled to place the ball when it is
> inevitable that it will roll into the stream?  Note that the stream is at
> right angles to the line of play and that the posts are not at the top of
> the slope.
> Thank you.
>
>
Stewart,

There are four issues:
#1 Your ball was in a water hazard and therefore you were entitled to drop a 
ball (not necessarily the same ball) outside the hazard under penalty of one 
stroke. when dropping, you were required to drop outside the hazard, at a 
spot in line with the hole and where the ball last crossed the margin of the 
hazard, keeping the hazard between you and the putting green.  You were 
entitled to drop back as far as you wished.  The full procedure is set out 
in Rule 26-1b.

#2 If a ball dropped outside a hazard, rolls into a hazard, it must be 
re-dropped (Rule 20-2c (i)).

#3 If a ball correctly dropped, is re-dropped and comes to rest where a 
re-drop would again be required, the ball is now placed where the ball first 
struck a part of the course on the second drop (Rule 20-2c. Penultimate 
paragraph before the Note.)  There is no additional penalty if a ball has to 
be re-dropped or placed.

It would seem you did everything correctly save for one query that I have.

It would seem from your description that the stakes marking the water hazard 
were in the wrong place.  They were down by the water's edge instead of 
where the ground started to fall towards the stream.  When you dropped on 
the downward slope to the hazard, you were probaly dropping in the hazard 
itself, in breach of Rule 26-1b, because of the wrong placement of the 
stakes.
When stakes are wrongly placed the player is entitled, and indeed required, 
to ignore the stakes and play by the natural margin of the hazard (Decision 
26/2).
This may have resulted in your playing from a wrong place, but since the 
competition with your brother is now closed and you were unaware of the 
breach, you incur no additional penalty and may keep the money!!

HTH,
Malcolm

"M L Wadsworth"  wrote in
news:upCdnUcGxN7D4dbbRVnytwA@bt.com: 
 
> It would seem from your description that the stakes marking the water
> hazard were in the wrong place.  They were down by the water's edge
> instead of where the ground started to fall towards the stream.

What about if the ground falls toward the hazard for the entirety of the 
fairway? ie a downhill fairway with a hazard at the bottom? Or in this 
case, where the start of the slope is several yards from the edge of the 
water? and how shallow does the slope have to be before it's not part of 
the hazard?

LHC.

The LHC wrote:
> "M L Wadsworth"  wrote in
> news:upCdnUcGxN7D4dbbRVnytwA@bt.com: 
>  
> 
>>It would seem from your description that the stakes marking the water
>>hazard were in the wrong place.  They were down by the water's edge
>>instead of where the ground started to fall towards the stream.
> 
> 
> What about if the ground falls toward the hazard for the entirety of the 
> fairway? ie a downhill fairway with a hazard at the bottom? Or in this 
> case, where the start of the slope is several yards from the edge of the 
> water? and how shallow does the slope have to be before it's not part of 
> the hazard?
> 
> LHC.

Look for the eroded edge of the natural depression containing the 
water......this is generally regarded as the natural limit of the hazard.

The stakes should be located close to and are always deemed to be within 
the margin of the hazard........relief options under Rule 26 usually 
relate to the point of entry on this margin. If there are stakes */and/* 
lines the stakes are only there to indicate (by their colour) the nature 
of the water hazard as it relates to the Rules of Golf, and the lines 
actually define the margin as determined by the Committee who should 
place them close to and along the natural limits of the hazard. It is a 
question of fact as to where the 'natural' margin lies; the Rules of 
Golf explain that the margin is where the 'ground breaks down to form 
the depression containing the water'. Golf courses often have landscaped 
slopes leading down into water hazards which will disguise or even 
obliterate the edge of an obvious depression containing the water. If 
there is no line or obvious margin then the line of the stakes itself 
should always be taken as the limit of the margin. There is a slightly 
more illogical but common case where there is no line and the stakes are 
placed /outside/ an obvious natural margin....there are plenty of 
arguments about where the margin lies between these stakes; a straight 
line between the stakes is irrelevant (only applies to boundary stakes)!

cheers
david

david s-a wrote:
> The LHC wrote:
>> "M L Wadsworth"  wrote in
>> news:upCdnUcGxN7D4dbbRVnytwA@bt.com:  
>>
>>> It would seem from your description that the stakes marking the water
>>> hazard were in the wrong place.  They were down by the water's edge
>>> instead of where the ground started to fall towards the stream.
>>
>>
>> What about if the ground falls toward the hazard for the entirety of 
>> the fairway? ie a downhill fairway with a hazard at the bottom? Or in 
>> this case, where the start of the slope is several yards from the edge 
>> of the water? and how shallow does the slope have to be before it's 
>> not part of the hazard?
>>
>> LHC.
> 
> Look for the eroded edge of the natural depression containing the 
> water......this is generally regarded as the natural limit of the hazard.
> 
> The stakes should be located close to and are always deemed to be within 
> the margin of the hazard........relief options under Rule 26 usually 
> relate to the point of entry on this margin. If there are stakes */and/* 
> lines the stakes are only there to indicate (by their colour) the nature 
> of the water hazard as it relates to the Rules of Golf, and the lines 
> actually define the margin as determined by the Committee who should 
> place them close to and along the natural limits of the hazard. It is a 
> question of fact as to where the 'natural' margin lies; the Rules of 
> Golf explain that the margin is where the 'ground breaks down to form 
> the depression containing the water'. Golf courses often have landscaped 
> slopes leading down into water hazards which will disguise or even 
> obliterate the edge of an obvious depression containing the water. If 
> there is no line or obvious margin then the line of the stakes itself 
> should always be taken as the limit of the margin. There is a slightly 
> more illogical but common case where there is no line and the stakes are 
> placed /outside/ an obvious natural margin....there are plenty of 
> arguments about where the margin lies between these stakes; a straight 
> line between the stakes is irrelevant (only applies to boundary stakes)!

By way of interest only my club's course has the apparent identical type of 
hazard across two fairways completely and the point has been raised many times 
"What" (as David quotes above)" is the point where the ground breaks down to 
form the depression containing the water?"

Under usual conditions the stream is about two feet wide but in conditions such 
as the last couple of weeks it is a roaring torrent some six feet wide, covering 
the normal shallow  break point. So the committee, in their wisdom ( and I 
personally agree with it) decree and mark the water hazard from the top of the 
gully which makes it some 20 yards wide. The reason for this is that so many 
balls enter the hazard and are possibly lost. Rule 26 allows a second ball to be 
used without finding the original, thus stopping time wasting to search for the 
original ball and/or returning to a point where the ball was last struck.

With the original poster's course method and ours then problems can be seen to 
be approached in two different ways. Which is the better? Who knows.

Having read LHC's post our first hole proceeds to slope up the fairway for a 
further fifty yards from the gully and his point then becomes valid too. Each 
course needs to be clearly marked.

JPW

Thank you for the answer, I am glad to know that I was correct.  It is
an interesting point about the location of the stakes.
When any of us see our ball rolling over the top of the slope towards
the water we know that it will end up in the stream, this would seem
to indicate that the stakes should really be at the top of the slope.
I am off now on a cruise for 2 weeks so shall not see any more
correspondence.

Pat Williams wrote:

> Under usual conditions the stream is about two feet wide but in 
> conditions such as the last couple of weeks it is a roaring torrent some 
> six feet wide, covering the normal shallow  break point. So the 
> committee, in their wisdom ( and I personally agree with it) decree and 
> mark the water hazard from the top of the gully which makes it some 20 
> yards wide. The reason for this is that so many balls enter the hazard 
> and are possibly lost. 

Is it too complex to explain that the Rules of Golf provide that a ball 
lost in 'overflow' of this nature are (in equity) deemed to be lost in 
the water hazard...whether or not the water is inside or outside the 
'natural' or marked limit of the hazard? (See Decision 1-4/7).

cheers
david

"Stewart"  wrote in message 
news:464b5445$0$4826$8a667849@news.ak47.org...
> On Friday my brother and I played our usual needle match and at the 6th 
> hole
> I drove my ball into a stream that crosses at right angles to the fairway.
> The stream is about 50 metres from the green
> The stream has the marker poles along its sides but not along the top of 
> the
> bank that runs down to the stream.  This bank slopes over a distance of
> about 7 metres.
> Normally we lift and drop back on the fairway clear of the bank but with 
> the
> hard ground that means playing a difficult pitch shot off the hard 
> fairway.
> I decided to drop my ball on the bank about 3 club lengths from the stream
> away from the green.
> The ball ran down the slope and back into the stream.
> I did this twice and then placed the ball on the slope at the same place 
> as
> I had previously dropped it.
> Am I correct in counting only 1 penalty shot for taking the ball out and
> placing it or must I count 3 penalty shots, 2 for dropping the ball and 1
> for placing it.
> In fact can anyone tell me if I am entitled to place the ball when it is
> inevitable that it will roll into the stream?  Note that the stream is at
> right angles to the line of play and that the posts are not at the top of
> the slope.
> Thank you.
>
>
Stewart,

There are four issues:
#1 Your ball was in a water hazard and therefore you were entitled to drop a 
ball (not necessarily the same ball) outside the hazard under penalty of one 
stroke. when dropping, you were required to drop outside the hazard, at a 
spot in line with the hole and where the ball last crossed the margin of the 
hazard, keeping the hazard between you and the putting green.  You were 
entitled to drop back as far as you wished.  The full procedure is set out 
in Rule 26-1b.

#2 If a ball dropped outside a hazard, rolls into a hazard, it must be 
re-dropped (Rule 20-2c (i)).

#3 If a ball correctly dropped, is re-dropped and comes to rest where a 
re-drop would again be required, the ball is now placed where the ball first 
struck a part of the course on the second drop (Rule 20-2c. Penultimate 
paragraph before the Note.)  There is no additional penalty if a ball has to 
be re-dropped or placed.

It would seem you did everything correctly save for one query that I have.

It would seem from your description that the stakes marking the water hazard 
were in the wrong place.  They were down by the water's edge instead of 
where the ground started to fall towards the stream.  When you dropped on 
the downward slope to the hazard, you were probaly dropping in the hazard 
itself, in breach of Rule 26-1b, because of the wrong placement of the 
stakes.
When stakes are wrongly placed the player is entitled, and indeed required, 
to ignore the stakes and play by the natural margin of the hazard (Decision 
26/2).
This may have resulted in your playing from a wrong place, but since the 
competition with your brother is now closed and you were unaware of the 
breach, you incur no additional penalty and may keep the money!!

HTH,
Malcolm

"M L Wadsworth"  wrote in
news:upCdnUcGxN7D4dbbRVnytwA@bt.com: 
 
> It would seem from your description that the stakes marking the water
> hazard were in the wrong place.  They were down by the water's edge
> instead of where the ground started to fall towards the stream.

What about if the ground falls toward the hazard for the entirety of the 
fairway? ie a downhill fairway with a hazard at the bottom? Or in this 
case, where the start of the slope is several yards from the edge of the 
water? and how shallow does the slope have to be before it's not part of 
the hazard?

LHC.

The LHC wrote:
> "M L Wadsworth"  wrote in
> news:upCdnUcGxN7D4dbbRVnytwA@bt.com: 
>  
> 
>>It would seem from your description that the stakes marking the water
>>hazard were in the wrong place.  They were down by the water's edge
>>instead of where the ground started to fall towards the stream.
> 
> 
> What about if the ground falls toward the hazard for the entirety of the 
> fairway? ie a downhill fairway with a hazard at the bottom? Or in this 
> case, where the start of the slope is several yards from the edge of the 
> water? and how shallow does the slope have to be before it's not part of 
> the hazard?
> 
> LHC.

Look for the eroded edge of the natural depression containing the 
water......this is generally regarded as the natural limit of the hazard.

The stakes should be located close to and are always deemed to be within 
the margin of the hazard........relief options under Rule 26 usually 
relate to the point of entry on this margin. If there are stakes */and/* 
lines the stakes are only there to indicate (by their colour) the nature 
of the water hazard as it relates to the Rules of Golf, and the lines 
actually define the margin as determined by the Committee who should 
place them close to and along the natural limits of the hazard. It is a 
question of fact as to where the 'natural' margin lies; the Rules of 
Golf explain that the margin is where the 'ground breaks down to form 
the depression containing the water'. Golf courses often have landscaped 
slopes leading down into water hazards which will disguise or even 
obliterate the edge of an obvious depression containing the water. If 
there is no line or obvious margin then the line of the stakes itself 
should always be taken as the limit of the margin. There is a slightly 
more illogical but common case where there is no line and the stakes are 
placed /outside/ an obvious natural margin....there are plenty of 
arguments about where the margin lies between these stakes; a straight 
line between the stakes is irrelevant (only applies to boundary stakes)!

cheers
david

david s-a wrote:
> The LHC wrote:
>> "M L Wadsworth"  wrote in
>> news:upCdnUcGxN7D4dbbRVnytwA@bt.com:  
>>
>>> It would seem from your description that the stakes marking the water
>>> hazard were in the wrong place.  They were down by the water's edge
>>> instead of where the ground started to fall towards the stream.
>>
>>
>> What about if the ground falls toward the hazard for the entirety of 
>> the fairway? ie a downhill fairway with a hazard at the bottom? Or in 
>> this case, where the start of the slope is several yards from the edge 
>> of the water? and how shallow does the slope have to be before it's 
>> not part of the hazard?
>>
>> LHC.
> 
> Look for the eroded edge of the natural depression containing the 
> water......this is generally regarded as the natural limit of the hazard.
> 
> The stakes should be located close to and are always deemed to be within 
> the margin of the hazard........relief options under Rule 26 usually 
> relate to the point of entry on this margin. If there are stakes */and/* 
> lines the stakes are only there to indicate (by their colour) the nature 
> of the water hazard as it relates to the Rules of Golf, and the lines 
> actually define the margin as determined by the Committee who should 
> place them close to and along the natural limits of the hazard. It is a 
> question of fact as to where the 'natural' margin lies; the Rules of 
> Golf explain that the margin is where the 'ground breaks down to form 
> the depression containing the water'. Golf courses often have landscaped 
> slopes leading down into water hazards which will disguise or even 
> obliterate the edge of an obvious depression containing the water. If 
> there is no line or obvious margin then the line of the stakes itself 
> should always be taken as the limit of the margin. There is a slightly 
> more illogical but common case where there is no line and the stakes are 
> placed /outside/ an obvious natural margin....there are plenty of 
> arguments about where the margin lies between these stakes; a straight 
> line between the stakes is irrelevant (only applies to boundary stakes)!

By way of interest only my club's course has the apparent identical type of 
hazard across two fairways completely and the point has been raised many times 
"What" (as David quotes above)" is the point where the ground breaks down to 
form the depression containing the water?"

Under usual conditions the stream is about two feet wide but in conditions such 
as the last couple of weeks it is a roaring torrent some six feet wide, covering 
the normal shallow  break point. So the committee, in their wisdom ( and I 
personally agree with it) decree and mark the water hazard from the top of the 
gully which makes it some 20 yards wide. The reason for this is that so many 
balls enter the hazard and are possibly lost. Rule 26 allows a second ball to be 
used without finding the original, thus stopping time wasting to search for the 
original ball and/or returning to a point where the ball was last struck.

With the original poster's course method and ours then problems can be seen to 
be approached in two different ways. Which is the better? Who knows.

Having read LHC's post our first hole proceeds to slope up the fairway for a 
further fifty yards from the gully and his point then becomes valid too. Each 
course needs to be clearly marked.

JPW

Thank you for the answer, I am glad to know that I was correct.  It is
an interesting point about the location of the stakes.
When any of us see our ball rolling over the top of the slope towards
the water we know that it will end up in the stream, this would seem
to indicate that the stakes should really be at the top of the slope.
I am off now on a cruise for 2 weeks so shall not see any more
correspondence.

Pat Williams wrote:

> Under usual conditions the stream is about two feet wide but in 
> conditions such as the last couple of weeks it is a roaring torrent some 
> six feet wide, covering the normal shallow  break point. So the 
> committee, in their wisdom ( and I personally agree with it) decree and 
> mark the water hazard from the top of the gully which makes it some 20 
> yards wide. The reason for this is that so many balls enter the hazard 
> and are possibly lost. 

Is it too complex to explain that the Rules of Golf provide that a ball 
lost in 'overflow' of this nature are (in equity) deemed to be lost in 
the water hazard...whether or not the water is inside or outside the 
'natural' or marked limit of the hazard? (See Decision 1-4/7).

cheers
david

"Stewart"  wrote in message 
news:464b5445$0$4826$8a667849@news.ak47.org...
> On Friday my brother and I played our usual needle match and at the 6th 
> hole
> I drove my ball into a stream that crosses at right angles to the fairway.
> The stream is about 50 metres from the green
> The stream has the marker poles along its sides but not along the top of 
> the
> bank that runs down to the stream.  This bank slopes over a distance of
> about 7 metres.
> Normally we lift and drop back on the fairway clear of the bank but with 
> the
> hard ground that means playing a difficult pitch shot off the hard 
> fairway.
> I decided to drop my ball on the bank about 3 club lengths from the stream
> away from the green.
> The ball ran down the slope and back into the stream.
> I did this twice and then placed the ball on the slope at the same place 
> as
> I had previously dropped it.
> Am I correct in counting only 1 penalty shot for taking the ball out and
> placing it or must I count 3 penalty shots, 2 for dropping the ball and 1
> for placing it.
> In fact can anyone tell me if I am entitled to place the ball when it is
> inevitable that it will roll into the stream?  Note that the stream is at
> right angles to the line of play and that the posts are not at the top of
> the slope.
> Thank you.
>
>
Stewart,

There are four issues:
#1 Your ball was in a water hazard and therefore you were entitled to drop a 
ball (not necessarily the same ball) outside the hazard under penalty of one 
stroke. when dropping, you were required to drop outside the hazard, at a 
spot in line with the hole and where the ball last crossed the margin of the 
hazard, keeping the hazard between you and the putting green.  You were 
entitled to drop back as far as you wished.  The full procedure is set out 
in Rule 26-1b.

#2 If a ball dropped outside a hazard, rolls into a hazard, it must be 
re-dropped (Rule 20-2c (i)).

#3 If a ball correctly dropped, is re-dropped and comes to rest where a 
re-drop would again be required, the ball is now placed where the ball first 
struck a part of the course on the second drop (Rule 20-2c. Penultimate 
paragraph before the Note.)  There is no additional penalty if a ball has to 
be re-dropped or placed.

It would seem you did everything correctly save for one query that I have.

It would seem from your description that the stakes marking the water hazard 
were in the wrong place.  They were down by the water's edge instead of 
where the ground started to fall towards the stream.  When you dropped on 
the downward slope to the hazard, you were probaly dropping in the hazard 
itself, in breach of Rule 26-1b, because of the wrong placement of the 
stakes.
When stakes are wrongly placed the player is entitled, and indeed required, 
to ignore the stakes and play by the natural margin of the hazard (Decision 
26/2).
This may have resulted in your playing from a wrong place, but since the 
competition with your brother is now closed and you were unaware of the 
breach, you incur no additional penalty and may keep the money!!

HTH,
Malcolm

"M L Wadsworth"  wrote in
news:upCdnUcGxN7D4dbbRVnytwA@bt.com: 
 
> It would seem from your description that the stakes marking the water
> hazard were in the wrong place.  They were down by the water's edge
> instead of where the ground started to fall towards the stream.

What about if the ground falls toward the hazard for the entirety of the 
fairway? ie a downhill fairway with a hazard at the bottom? Or in this 
case, where the start of the slope is several yards from the edge of the 
water? and how shallow does the slope have to be before it's not part of 
the hazard?

LHC.

The LHC wrote:
> "M L Wadsworth"  wrote in
> news:upCdnUcGxN7D4dbbRVnytwA@bt.com: 
>  
> 
>>It would seem from your description that the stakes marking the water
>>hazard were in the wrong place.  They were down by the water's edge
>>instead of where the ground started to fall towards the stream.
> 
> 
> What about if the ground falls toward the hazard for the entirety of the 
> fairway? ie a downhill fairway with a hazard at the bottom? Or in this 
> case, where the start of the slope is several yards from the edge of the 
> water? and how shallow does the slope have to be before it's not part of 
> the hazard?
> 
> LHC.

Look for the eroded edge of the natural depression containing the 
water......this is generally regarded as the natural limit of the hazard.

The stakes should be located close to and are always deemed to be within 
the margin of the hazard........relief options under Rule 26 usually 
relate to the point of entry on this margin. If there are stakes */and/* 
lines the stakes are only there to indicate (by their colour) the nature 
of the water hazard as it relates to the Rules of Golf, and the lines 
actually define the margin as determined by the Committee who should 
place them close to and along the natural limits of the hazard. It is a 
question of fact as to where the 'natural' margin lies; the Rules of 
Golf explain that the margin is where the 'ground breaks down to form 
the depression containing the water'. Golf courses often have landscaped 
slopes leading down into water hazards which will disguise or even 
obliterate the edge of an obvious depression containing the water. If 
there is no line or obvious margin then the line of the stakes itself 
should always be taken as the limit of the margin. There is a slightly 
more illogical but common case where there is no line and the stakes are 
placed /outside/ an obvious natural margin....there are plenty of 
arguments about where the margin lies between these stakes; a straight 
line between the stakes is irrelevant (only applies to boundary stakes)!

cheers
david

david s-a wrote:
> The LHC wrote:
>> "M L Wadsworth"  wrote in
>> news:upCdnUcGxN7D4dbbRVnytwA@bt.com:  
>>
>>> It would seem from your description that the stakes marking the water
>>> hazard were in the wrong place.  They were down by the water's edge
>>> instead of where the ground started to fall towards the stream.
>>
>>
>> What about if the ground falls toward the hazard for the entirety of 
>> the fairway? ie a downhill fairway with a hazard at the bottom? Or in 
>> this case, where the start of the slope is several yards from the edge 
>> of the water? and how shallow does the slope have to be before it's 
>> not part of the hazard?
>>
>> LHC.
> 
> Look for the eroded edge of the natural depression containing the 
> water......this is generally regarded as the natural limit of the hazard.
> 
> The stakes should be located close to and are always deemed to be within 
> the margin of the hazard........relief options under Rule 26 usually 
> relate to the point of entry on this margin. If there are stakes */and/* 
> lines the stakes are only there to indicate (by their colour) the nature 
> of the water hazard as it relates to the Rules of Golf, and the lines 
> actually define the margin as determined by the Committee who should 
> place them close to and along the natural limits of the hazard. It is a 
> question of fact as to where the 'natural' margin lies; the Rules of 
> Golf explain that the margin is where the 'ground breaks down to form 
> the depression containing the water'. Golf courses often have landscaped 
> slopes leading down into water hazards which will disguise or even 
> obliterate the edge of an obvious depression containing the water. If 
> there is no line or obvious margin then the line of the stakes itself 
> should always be taken as the limit of the margin. There is a slightly 
> more illogical but common case where there is no line and the stakes are 
> placed /outside/ an obvious natural margin....there are plenty of 
> arguments about where the margin lies between these stakes; a straight 
> line between the stakes is irrelevant (only applies to boundary stakes)!

By way of interest only my club's course has the apparent identical type of 
hazard across two fairways completely and the point has been raised many times 
"What" (as David quotes above)" is the point where the ground breaks down to 
form the depression containing the water?"

Under usual conditions the stream is about two feet wide but in conditions such 
as the last couple of weeks it is a roaring torrent some six feet wide, covering 
the normal shallow  break point. So the committee, in their wisdom ( and I 
personally agree with it) decree and mark the water hazard from the top of the 
gully which makes it some 20 yards wide. The reason for this is that so many 
balls enter the hazard and are possibly lost. Rule 26 allows a second ball to be 
used without finding the original, thus stopping time wasting to search for the 
original ball and/or returning to a point where the ball was last struck.

With the original poster's course method and ours then problems can be seen to 
be approached in two different ways. Which is the better? Who knows.

Having read LHC's post our first hole proceeds to slope up the fairway for a 
further fifty yards from the gully and his point then becomes valid too. Each 
course needs to be clearly marked.

JPW

Thank you for the answer, I am glad to know that I was correct.  It is
an interesting point about the location of the stakes.
When any of us see our ball rolling over the top of the slope towards
the water we know that it will end up in the stream, this would seem
to indicate that the stakes should really be at the top of the slope.
I am off now on a cruise for 2 weeks so shall not see any more
correspondence.

Pat Williams wrote:

> Under usual conditions the stream is about two feet wide but in 
> conditions such as the last couple of weeks it is a roaring torrent some 
> six feet wide, covering the normal shallow  break point. So the 
> committee, in their wisdom ( and I personally agree with it) decree and 
> mark the water hazard from the top of the gully which makes it some 20 
> yards wide. The reason for this is that so many balls enter the hazard 
> and are possibly lost. 

Is it too complex to explain that the Rules of Golf provide that a ball 
lost in 'overflow' of this nature are (in equity) deemed to be lost in 
the water hazard...whether or not the water is inside or outside the 
'natural' or marked limit of the hazard? (See Decision 1-4/7).

cheers
david

"Stewart"  wrote in message 
news:464b5445$0$4826$8a667849@news.ak47.org...
> On Friday my brother and I played our usual needle match and at the 6th 
> hole
> I drove my ball into a stream that crosses at right angles to the fairway.
> The stream is about 50 metres from the green
> The stream has the marker poles along its sides but not along the top of 
> the
> bank that runs down to the stream.  This bank slopes over a distance of
> about 7 metres.
> Normally we lift and drop back on the fairway clear of the bank but with 
> the
> hard ground that means playing a difficult pitch shot off the hard 
> fairway.
> I decided to drop my ball on the bank about 3 club lengths from the stream
> away from the green.
> The ball ran down the slope and back into the stream.
> I did this twice and then placed the ball on the slope at the same place 
> as
> I had previously dropped it.
> Am I correct in counting only 1 penalty shot for taking the ball out and
> placing it or must I count 3 penalty shots, 2 for dropping the ball and 1
> for placing it.
> In fact can anyone tell me if I am entitled to place the ball when it is
> inevitable that it will roll into the stream?  Note that the stream is at
> right angles to the line of play and that the posts are not at the top of
> the slope.
> Thank you.
>
>
Stewart,

There are four issues:
#1 Your ball was in a water hazard and therefore you were entitled to drop a 
ball (not necessarily the same ball) outside the hazard under penalty of one 
stroke. when dropping, you were required to drop outside the hazard, at a 
spot in line with the hole and where the ball last crossed the margin of the 
hazard, keeping the hazard between you and the putting green.  You were 
entitled to drop back as far as you wished.  The full procedure is set out 
in Rule 26-1b.

#2 If a ball dropped outside a hazard, rolls into a hazard, it must be 
re-dropped (Rule 20-2c (i)).

#3 If a ball correctly dropped, is re-dropped and comes to rest where a 
re-drop would again be required, the ball is now placed where the ball first 
struck a part of the course on the second drop (Rule 20-2c. Penultimate 
paragraph before the Note.)  There is no additional penalty if a ball has to 
be re-dropped or placed.

It would seem you did everything correctly save for one query that I have.

It would seem from your description that the stakes marking the water hazard 
were in the wrong place.  They were down by the water's edge instead of 
where the ground started to fall towards the stream.  When you dropped on 
the downward slope to the hazard, you were probaly dropping in the hazard 
itself, in breach of Rule 26-1b, because of the wrong placement of the 
stakes.
When stakes are wrongly placed the player is entitled, and indeed required, 
to ignore the stakes and play by the natural margin of the hazard (Decision 
26/2).
This may have resulted in your playing from a wrong place, but since the 
competition with your brother is now closed and you were unaware of the 
breach, you incur no additional penalty and may keep the money!!

HTH,
Malcolm

"M L Wadsworth"  wrote in
news:upCdnUcGxN7D4dbbRVnytwA@bt.com: 
 
> It would seem from your description that the stakes marking the water
> hazard were in the wrong place.  They were down by the water's edge
> instead of where the ground started to fall towards the stream.

What about if the ground falls toward the hazard for the entirety of the 
fairway? ie a downhill fairway with a hazard at the bottom? Or in this 
case, where the start of the slope is several yards from the edge of the 
water? and how shallow does the slope have to be before it's not part of 
the hazard?

LHC.

The LHC wrote:
> "M L Wadsworth"  wrote in
> news:upCdnUcGxN7D4dbbRVnytwA@bt.com: 
>  
> 
>>It would seem from your description that the stakes marking the water
>>hazard were in the wrong place.  They were down by the water's edge
>>instead of where the ground started to fall towards the stream.
> 
> 
> What about if the ground falls toward the hazard for the entirety of the 
> fairway? ie a downhill fairway with a hazard at the bottom? Or in this 
> case, where the start of the slope is several yards from the edge of the 
> water? and how shallow does the slope have to be before it's not part of 
> the hazard?
> 
> LHC.

Look for the eroded edge of the natural depression containing the 
water......this is generally regarded as the natural limit of the hazard.

The stakes should be located close to and are always deemed to be within 
the margin of the hazard........relief options under Rule 26 usually 
relate to the point of entry on this margin. If there are stakes */and/* 
lines the stakes are only there to indicate (by their colour) the nature 
of the water hazard as it relates to the Rules of Golf, and the lines 
actually define the margin as determined by the Committee who should 
place them close to and along the natural limits of the hazard. It is a 
question of fact as to where the 'natural' margin lies; the Rules of 
Golf explain that the margin is where the 'ground breaks down to form 
the depression containing the water'. Golf courses often have landscaped 
slopes leading down into water hazards which will disguise or even 
obliterate the edge of an obvious depression containing the water. If 
there is no line or obvious margin then the line of the stakes itself 
should always be taken as the limit of the margin. There is a slightly 
more illogical but common case where there is no line and the stakes are 
placed /outside/ an obvious natural margin....there are plenty of 
arguments about where the margin lies between these stakes; a straight 
line between the stakes is irrelevant (only applies to boundary stakes)!

cheers
david

david s-a wrote:
> The LHC wrote:
>> "M L Wadsworth"  wrote in
>> news:upCdnUcGxN7D4dbbRVnytwA@bt.com:  
>>
>>> It would seem from your description that the stakes marking the water
>>> hazard were in the wrong place.  They were down by the water's edge
>>> instead of where the ground started to fall towards the stream.
>>
>>
>> What about if the ground falls toward the hazard for the entirety of 
>> the fairway? ie a downhill fairway with a hazard at the bottom? Or in 
>> this case, where the start of the slope is several yards from the edge 
>> of the water? and how shallow does the slope have to be before it's 
>> not part of the hazard?
>>
>> LHC.
> 
> Look for the eroded edge of the natural depression containing the 
> water......this is generally regarded as the natural limit of the hazard.
> 
> The stakes should be located close to and are always deemed to be within 
> the margin of the hazard........relief options under Rule 26 usually 
> relate to the point of entry on this margin. If there are stakes */and/* 
> lines the stakes are only there to indicate (by their colour) the nature 
> of the water hazard as it relates to the Rules of Golf, and the lines 
> actually define the margin as determined by the Committee who should 
> place them close to and along the natural limits of the hazard. It is a 
> question of fact as to where the 'natural' margin lies; the Rules of 
> Golf explain that the margin is where the 'ground breaks down to form 
> the depression containing the water'. Golf courses often have landscaped 
> slopes leading down into water hazards which will disguise or even 
> obliterate the edge of an obvious depression containing the water. If 
> there is no line or obvious margin then the line of the stakes itself 
> should always be taken as the limit of the margin. There is a slightly 
> more illogical but common case where there is no line and the stakes are 
> placed /outside/ an obvious natural margin....there are plenty of 
> arguments about where the margin lies between these stakes; a straight 
> line between the stakes is irrelevant (only applies to boundary stakes)!

By way of interest only my club's course has the apparent identical type of 
hazard across two fairways completely and the point has been raised many times 
"What" (as David quotes above)" is the point where the ground breaks down to 
form the depression containing the water?"

Under usual conditions the stream is about two feet wide but in conditions such 
as the last couple of weeks it is a roaring torrent some six feet wide, covering 
the normal shallow  break point. So the committee, in their wisdom ( and I 
personally agree with it) decree and mark the water hazard from the top of the 
gully which makes it some 20 yards wide. The reason for this is that so many 
balls enter the hazard and are possibly lost. Rule 26 allows a second ball to be 
used without finding the original, thus stopping time wasting to search for the 
original ball and/or returning to a point where the ball was last struck.

With the original poster's course method and ours then problems can be seen to 
be approached in two different ways. Which is the better? Who knows.

Having read LHC's post our first hole proceeds to slope up the fairway for a 
further fifty yards from the gully and his point then becomes valid too. Each 
course needs to be clearly marked.

JPW

Thank you for the answer, I am glad to know that I was correct.  It is
an interesting point about the location of the stakes.
When any of us see our ball rolling over the top of the slope towards
the water we know that it will end up in the stream, this would seem
to indicate that the stakes should really be at the top of the slope.
I am off now on a cruise for 2 weeks so shall not see any more
correspondence.

Pat Williams wrote:

> Under usual conditions the stream is about two feet wide but in 
> conditions such as the last couple of weeks it is a roaring torrent some 
> six feet wide, covering the normal shallow  break point. So the 
> committee, in their wisdom ( and I personally agree with it) decree and 
> mark the water hazard from the top of the gully which makes it some 20 
> yards wide. The reason for this is that so many balls enter the hazard 
> and are possibly lost. 

Is it too complex to explain that the Rules of Golf provide that a ball 
lost in 'overflow' of this nature are (in equity) deemed to be lost in 
the water hazard...whether or not the water is inside or outside the 
'natural' or marked limit of the hazard? (See Decision 1-4/7).

cheers
david

"Stewart"  wrote in message 
news:464b5445$0$4826$8a667849@news.ak47.org...
> On Friday my brother and I played our usual needle match and at the 6th 
> hole
> I drove my ball into a stream that crosses at right angles to the fairway.
> The stream is about 50 metres from the green
> The stream has the marker poles along its sides but not along the top of 
> the
> bank that runs down to the stream.  This bank slopes over a distance of
> about 7 metres.
> Normally we lift and drop back on the fairway clear of the bank but with 
> the
> hard ground that means playing a difficult pitch shot off the hard 
> fairway.
> I decided to drop my ball on the bank about 3 club lengths from the stream
> away from the green.
> The ball ran down the slope and back into the stream.
> I did this twice and then placed the ball on the slope at the same place 
> as
> I had previously dropped it.
> Am I correct in counting only 1 penalty shot for taking the ball out and
> placing it or must I count 3 penalty shots, 2 for dropping the ball and 1
> for placing it.
> In fact can anyone tell me if I am entitled to place the ball when it is
> inevitable that it will roll into the stream?  Note that the stream is at
> right angles to the line of play and that the posts are not at the top of
> the slope.
> Thank you.
>
>
Stewart,

There are four issues:
#1 Your ball was in a water hazard and therefore you were entitled to drop a 
ball (not necessarily the same ball) outside the hazard under penalty of one 
stroke. when dropping, you were required to drop outside the hazard, at a 
spot in line with the hole and where the ball last crossed the margin of the 
hazard, keeping the hazard between you and the putting green.  You were 
entitled to drop back as far as you wished.  The full procedure is set out 
in Rule 26-1b.

#2 If a ball dropped outside a hazard, rolls into a hazard, it must be 
re-dropped (Rule 20-2c (i)).

#3 If a ball correctly dropped, is re-dropped and comes to rest where a 
re-drop would again be required, the ball is now placed where the ba