http://tinyurl.com/5hlfrc

In article <ga2uso$2e9$1@aioe.org>, andy@IbroxIsMyBlueHeaven.com says...
> http://tinyurl.com 

I am not in favour of separate schools myself but there is the counter 
argument that non-Catholic schools still produced people with the mindset 
similar to yourself - but I suppose a 1950's style bigoted outlook is 
always going to exist with certain insecure people in any walk of life. I 
just never thought I would see the day when such people were to put 
Lorraine Kelly forward as a role model to further their narrow minded 
sectarian agenda ;-)

"Andy Morrison"  wrote in message 
news:ga2uso$2e9$1@aioe.org...
> http://tinyurl.com/5hlfrc

Awwwwwwwww your hero speaks,what a gal! Lorraine Kelly!lmao . Whats next,you 
going to drool over Ulrika's view on devolution?

JB

"Jim Mason" <jim&linda@gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:MPG.232f1d6f5fae39a0989a0e@news.individual.net...
> In article <ga2uso$2e9$1@aioe.org>, andy@IbroxIsMyBlueHeaven.com says...
>> http://tinyurl.com
>
> I am not in favour of separate schools myself but there is the counter
> argument that non-Catholic schools still produced people with the mindset
> similar to yourself - but I suppose a 1950's style bigoted outlook is
> always going to exist with certain insecure people in any walk of life. I
> just never thought I would see the day when such people were to put
> Lorraine Kelly forward as a role model to further their narrow minded
> sectarian agenda ;-)


I decided a while back that your constant inanity was not worth replying to.

Just this once however, I will indulge your drivel, so please, pray 
enlighten me on what my mindset is.

Since you so freely accuse in your statement above, I am sure that you will 
be able to furnish me with the proof of those allegations, including 
"specific" instances of my bigotedness, insecurity, narrow mindedness & 
sectarianism. The floor is all yours.

"Jonbhoy"  wrote in message 
news:c8SdnceI5IhljljVnZ2dnUVZ8qjinZ2d@giganews.com...
>
> "Andy Morrison"  wrote in message 
> news:ga2uso$2e9$1@aioe.org...
>> http://tinyurl.com/5hlfrc
>
> Awwwwwwwww your hero speaks,what a gal! Lorraine Kelly!lmao . Whats 
> next,you going to drool over Ulrika's view on devolution?
>
> JB
>

Lorraine Kelly has had a sex change?????????????????? fuckwit

"Andy Morrison"  wrote in
news:ga389a$lkh$1@aioe.org: 

> 
> "Jim Mason" <jim&linda@gmail.com> wrote in message 
> news:MPG.232f1d6f5fae39a0989a0e@news.individual.net...
>> In article <ga2uso$2e9$1@aioe.org>, andy@IbroxIsMyBlueHeaven.com
>> says... 
>>> http://tinyurl.com
>>
>> I am not in favour of separate schools myself but there is the
>> counter argument that non-Catholic schools still produced people with
>> the mindset similar to yourself - but I suppose a 1950's style
>> bigoted outlook is always going to exist with certain insecure people
>> in any walk of life. I just never thought I would see the day when
>> such people were to put Lorraine Kelly forward as a role model to
>> further their narrow minded sectarian agenda ;-)
> 
> 
> I decided a while back that your constant inanity was not worth
> replying to. 
> 
> Just this once however, I will indulge your drivel, so please, pray 
> enlighten me on what my mindset is.
> 
> Since you so freely accuse in your statement above, I am sure that you
> will be able to furnish me with the proof of those allegations,
> including "specific" instances of my bigotedness, insecurity, narrow
> mindedness & sectarianism. The floor is all yours.

What about returning all schools to the Catholic church? If its the 
different schools that cause a problem then surely you would back a 
return to all schools being the same?

-- 
sme

"Andy Morrison"  wrote in message 
news:ga38h6$mqa$1@aioe.org...
>
> "Jonbhoy"  wrote in message 
> news:c8SdnceI5IhljljVnZ2dnUVZ8qjinZ2d@giganews.com...
>>
>> "Andy Morrison"  wrote in message 
>> news:ga2uso$2e9$1@aioe.org...
>>> http://tinyurl.com/5hlfrc
>>
>> Awwwwwwwww your hero speaks,what a gal! Lorraine Kelly!lmao . Whats 
>> next,you going to drool over Ulrika's view on devolution?
>>
>> JB
>>
>
> Lorraine Kelly has had a sex change?????????????????? fuckwit

Well i suppose you would have to go for the hero/heroine thing because 
people normally would do anything to try and swerve how stupid they look 
using Lorraine Kelly as an example of why things should change.....fucking 
classic lmfao . Hey shouldn't you be away to bed soon,Lorraines on early 
tomorrow i believe! lol

JB

"sme"  wrote in message 
news:6ikthmFqvsi1U1@mid.individual.net...
> "Andy Morrison"  wrote in
> news:ga389a$lkh$1@aioe.org:
>
>>
>> "Jim Mason" <jim&linda@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:MPG.232f1d6f5fae39a0989a0e@news.individual.net...
>>> In article <ga2uso$2e9$1@aioe.org>, andy@IbroxIsMyBlueHeaven.com
>>> says...
>>>> http://tinyurl.com
>>>
>>> I am not in favour of separate schools myself but there is the
>>> counter argument that non-Catholic schools still produced people with
>>> the mindset similar to yourself - but I suppose a 1950's style
>>> bigoted outlook is always going to exist with certain insecure people
>>> in any walk of life. I just never thought I would see the day when
>>> such people were to put Lorraine Kelly forward as a role model to
>>> further their narrow minded sectarian agenda ;-)
>>
>>
>> I decided a while back that your constant inanity was not worth
>> replying to.
>>
>> Just this once however, I will indulge your drivel, so please, pray
>> enlighten me on what my mindset is.
>>
>> Since you so freely accuse in your statement above, I am sure that you
>> will be able to furnish me with the proof of those allegations,
>> including "specific" instances of my bigotedness, insecurity, narrow
>> mindedness & sectarianism. The floor is all yours.
>
> What about returning all schools to the Catholic church? If its the
> different schools that cause a problem then surely you would back a
> return to all schools being the same?

Im actually all in favor of schools in the UK being non religious,be it 
protestant,RC,Muslim etc for children . Id also ban all forms of religious 
symbol because it seems no one can agree on whats ok and whats not (two 
examples in my area were a girl told to remove a cross on a necklace yet 
another girl allowed to wear muslim jewellery) , if it cant be agreed then 
ban the lot and stuff PC ! But then im not a fan of religion so to me its 
one of those things i feel kids should make their own mind up over and when 
they are 18 go with what they want. However using Lorraine Kelly to try and 
make a cheap swipe over religious schools has to be one of the funniest 
things i have seen on the NG's.

JB

In article <ga389a$lkh$1@aioe.org>, andy@IbroxIsMyBlueHeaven.com says...
> 
 
> I decided a while back that your constant inanity was not worth replying to.

But still you do. You are a somewhat confused chap Andy! :-) I am glad I 
can help myself more than you ;-)

Night night.

"Jim Mason" <jim&linda@gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:MPG.232f7c5d16c4b9ce989a10@news.individual.net...
> In article <ga389a$lkh$1@aioe.org>, andy@IbroxIsMyBlueHeaven.com says...
>>
>
>> I decided a while back that your constant inanity was not worth replying 
>> to.
>
> But still you do. You are a somewhat confused chap Andy! :-) I am glad I
> can help myself more than you ;-)
>
> Night night.

Did notice that too,poor andy,think he is having a bad day.Maybe he can 
phone Lorraine about how bad his days been and get his call aired on the 
show! ;-)

JB

"Jonbhoy"  wrote in
news:paSdncjZc4ao_1jVnZ2dnUVZ8u6dnZ2d@giganews.com: 

> 
> "sme"  wrote in message 
> news:6ikthmFqvsi1U1@mid.individual.net...
>> "Andy Morrison"  wrote in
>> news:ga389a$lkh$1@aioe.org:
>>
>>>
>>> "Jim Mason" <jim&linda@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:MPG.232f1d6f5fae39a0989a0e@news.individual.net...
>>>> In article <ga2uso$2e9$1@aioe.org>, andy@IbroxIsMyBlueHeaven.com
>>>> says...
>>>>> http://tinyurl.com
>>>>
>>>> I am not in favour of separate schools myself but there is the
>>>> counter argument that non-Catholic schools still produced people
>>>> with the mindset similar to yourself - but I suppose a 1950's style
>>>> bigoted outlook is always going to exist with certain insecure
>>>> people in any walk of life. I just never thought I would see the
>>>> day when such people were to put Lorraine Kelly forward as a role
>>>> model to further their narrow minded sectarian agenda ;-)
>>>
>>>
>>> I decided a while back that your constant inanity was not worth
>>> replying to.
>>>
>>> Just this once however, I will indulge your drivel, so please, pray
>>> enlighten me on what my mindset is.
>>>
>>> Since you so freely accuse in your statement above, I am sure that
>>> you will be able to furnish me with the proof of those allegations,
>>> including "specific" instances of my bigotedness, insecurity, narrow
>>> mindedness & sectarianism. The floor is all yours.
>>
>> What about returning all schools to the Catholic church? If its the
>> different schools that cause a problem then surely you would back a
>> return to all schools being the same?
> 
> Im actually all in favor of schools in the UK being non religious,be
> it protestant,RC,Muslim etc for children . Id also ban all forms of
> religious symbol because it seems no one can agree on whats ok and
> whats not (two examples in my area were a girl told to remove a cross
> on a necklace yet another girl allowed to wear muslim jewellery) , if
> it cant be agreed then ban the lot and stuff PC ! But then im not a
> fan of religion so to me its one of those things i feel kids should
> make their own mind up over and when they are 18 go with what they
> want. However using Lorraine Kelly to try and make a cheap swipe over
> religious schools has to be one of the funniest things i have seen on
> the NG's.

i was just turning the example around JB. I think schools should be to 
teach academics and places of worship should be for teaching religion. 
Banning things is a cop out unless its offensive. What if you wanted your 
children to have a Catholic education? Surely the choice should still be 
there. All state funded schools should have no ties to any religious 
movement but private schools should be able to follow whatever curriculum 
they want, after all, its the parents who are paying for it.

The whole LK thing is a joke. Surely she realises that when she was at 
school religious intolerance was commonplace and ignored. Nowadays it is 
being tackled head on and schools are teaching about cultural and 
religious diversity.

People will always hate. Religion is an easy excuse to use. If we do away 
with religion it will be replaced by something else.

-- 
sme

"sme"  wrote in message 
news:6ild9lFri2peU2@mid.individual.net...
> "Jonbhoy"  wrote in
> news:paSdncjZc4ao_1jVnZ2dnUVZ8u6dnZ2d@giganews.com:
>
>>
>> "sme"  wrote in message
>> news:6ikthmFqvsi1U1@mid.individual.net...
>>> "Andy Morrison"  wrote in
>>> news:ga389a$lkh$1@aioe.org:
>>>
>>>>
>>>> "Jim Mason" <jim&linda@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>>> news:MPG.232f1d6f5fae39a0989a0e@news.individual.net...
>>>>> In article <ga2uso$2e9$1@aioe.org>, andy@IbroxIsMyBlueHeaven.com
>>>>> says...
>>>>>> http://tinyurl.com
>>>>>
>>>>> I am not in favour of separate schools myself but there is the
>>>>> counter argument that non-Catholic schools still produced people
>>>>> with the mindset similar to yourself - but I suppose a 1950's style
>>>>> bigoted outlook is always going to exist with certain insecure
>>>>> people in any walk of life. I just never thought I would see the
>>>>> day when such people were to put Lorraine Kelly forward as a role
>>>>> model to further their narrow minded sectarian agenda ;-)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I decided a while back that your constant inanity was not worth
>>>> replying to.
>>>>
>>>> Just this once however, I will indulge your drivel, so please, pray
>>>> enlighten me on what my mindset is.
>>>>
>>>> Since you so freely accuse in your statement above, I am sure that
>>>> you will be able to furnish me with the proof of those allegations,
>>>> including "specific" instances of my bigotedness, insecurity, narrow
>>>> mindedness & sectarianism. The floor is all yours.
>>>
>>> What about returning all schools to the Catholic church? If its the
>>> different schools that cause a problem then surely you would back a
>>> return to all schools being the same?
>>
>> Im actually all in favor of schools in the UK being non religious,be
>> it protestant,RC,Muslim etc for children . Id also ban all forms of
>> religious symbol because it seems no one can agree on whats ok and
>> whats not (two examples in my area were a girl told to remove a cross
>> on a necklace yet another girl allowed to wear muslim jewellery) , if
>> it cant be agreed then ban the lot and stuff PC ! But then im not a
>> fan of religion so to me its one of those things i feel kids should
>> make their own mind up over and when they are 18 go with what they
>> want. However using Lorraine Kelly to try and make a cheap swipe over
>> religious schools has to be one of the funniest things i have seen on
>> the NG's.
>
> i was just turning the example around JB. I think schools should be to
> teach academics and places of worship should be for teaching religion.
> Banning things is a cop out unless its offensive. What if you wanted your
> children to have a Catholic education? Surely the choice should still be
> there. All state funded schools should have no ties to any religious
> movement but private schools should be able to follow whatever curriculum
> they want, after all, its the parents who are paying for it.

Its ok sme,i knew what you meant.I was pointing it out before certin people 
no doubt accused me due to supporting celtic that im RC as they tend to 
believe all are.

> The whole LK thing is a joke. Surely she realises that when she was at
> school religious intolerance was commonplace and ignored. Nowadays it is
> being tackled head on and schools are teaching about cultural and
> religious diversity.

From what the article says it seems to say that there was trouble between 
her school and the RC school.Maybe shes actually saying her school was the 
trouble maker ! She doesnt anywhere say it was the RC school alone causing 
the problem.But to use LK as an example was just funny as fuck.

> People will always hate. Religion is an easy excuse to use. If we do away
> with religion it will be replaced by something else.

A very true statement . Some say the OF breed hatred and intolerance but if 
football disappeared the same problems would have been around.Its just the 
extreme side that latches onto the two clubs using it to try to justify 
their shite.Dont get me wrong,i dislike Rangers but im sure as fuck theres 
no way id want to give a fan a kicking just because of who they support but 
sadly many feel the opposite.

JB

JB

"Jim Mason" <jim&linda@gmail.com> wrote in message 
news:MPG.232f7c5d16c4b9ce989a10@news.individual.net...
> In article <ga389a$lkh$1@aioe.org>, andy@IbroxIsMyBlueHeaven.com says...
>>
>
>> I decided a while back that your constant inanity was not worth replying 
>> to.
>
> But still you do. You are a somewhat confused chap Andy! :-) I am glad I
> can help myself more than you ;-)
>
> Night night.

C'mon, surely you can do better than that. After all the accusations & 
finger pointing you are going to look really stupid if you can't produce any 
evidence.

I'm not confused, I gave you the floor to try & prove your allegations, 
which you have so singularly failed to do.

Come back RTT, there's not a decent argument to be had here since you left.

"sme"  wrote in message 
news:6ikthmFqvsi1U1@mid.individual.net...
> "Andy Morrison"  wrote in
> news:ga389a$lkh$1@aioe.org:
>
>>
>> "Jim Mason" <jim&linda@gmail.com> wrote in message
>> news:MPG.232f1d6f5fae39a0989a0e@news.individual.net...
>>> In article <ga2uso$2e9$1@aioe.org>, andy@IbroxIsMyBlueHeaven.com
>>> says...
>>>> http://tinyurl.com
>>>
>>> I am not in favour of separate schools myself but there is the
>>> counter argument that non-Catholic schools still produced people with
>>> the mindset similar to yourself - but I suppose a 1950's style
>>> bigoted outlook is always going to exist with certain insecure people
>>> in any walk of life. I just never thought I would see the day when
>>> such people were to put Lorraine Kelly forward as a role model to
>>> further their narrow minded sectarian agenda ;-)
>>
>>
>> I decided a while back that your constant inanity was not worth
>> replying to.
>>
>> Just this once however, I will indulge your drivel, so please, pray
>> enlighten me on what my mindset is.
>>
>> Since you so freely accuse in your statement above, I am sure that you
>> will be able to furnish me with the proof of those allegations,
>> including "specific" instances of my bigotedness, insecurity, narrow
>> mindedness & sectarianism. The floor is all yours.
>
> What about returning all schools to the Catholic church? If its the
> different schools that cause a problem then surely you would back a
> return to all schools being the same?
>
> -- 
> sme

I'm not advocating trying to remove people's religion. I'm advocating 
removing religion from schools in an effort to bring our kids together & 
away from segregation at school gates. So there wouldn't be Catholic schools 
or non denominational schools, there would just be Scottish schools.

Children can deal with differences in others perfectly adequately if they 
are allowed. If they are schooled together right through their formative 
years, then religion doesn't become  divisive & carry through to adult 
society.

"Jonbhoy"  wrote in message 
news:QM-dnS2SKME0xljVnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@giganews.com...
>
> "Andy Morrison"  wrote in message 
> news:ga38h6$mqa$1@aioe.org...
>>
>> "Jonbhoy"  wrote in message 
>> news:c8SdnceI5IhljljVnZ2dnUVZ8qjinZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>
>>> "Andy Morrison"  wrote in message 
>>> news:ga2uso$2e9$1@aioe.org...
>>>> http://tinyurl.com/5hlfrc
>>>
>>> Awwwwwwwww your hero speaks,what a gal! Lorraine Kelly!lmao . Whats 
>>> next,you going to drool over Ulrika's view on devolution?
>>>
>>> JB
>>>
>>
>> Lorraine Kelly has had a sex change?????????????????? fuckwit
>
> Well i suppose you would have to go for the hero/heroine thing because 
> people normally would do anything to try and swerve how stupid they look 
> using Lorraine Kelly as an example of why things should change.....fucking 
> classic lmfao . Hey shouldn't you be away to bed soon,Lorraines on early 
> tomorrow i believe! lol
>
> JB
>
You are the classic one here, your bluster & rubbishing of other people, 
does not for one minute wash with me. You are an ignoramus who does not show 
a lot of perception when reading articles.

Lorraine Kelly is a well known public figure, who tries by virtue of her 
position, to make a difference in peoples lives, she very obviously 
perceives a division caused by religion in Scotland. If we get more of her 
kind to get the ball rolling, then maybe this country can have meaningful 
discussion to bring an end to, especially in these secular times, the 
archaic divisions in Scottish society, caused in the main by seperating 
children on the basis of religion.

"Andy Morrison"  wrote in message 
news:ga4c6n$s43$1@aioe.org...
>
> "Jonbhoy"  wrote in message 
> news:QM-dnS2SKME0xljVnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>
>> "Andy Morrison"  wrote in message 
>> news:ga38h6$mqa$1@aioe.org...
>>>
>>> "Jonbhoy"  wrote in message 
>>> news:c8SdnceI5IhljljVnZ2dnUVZ8qjinZ2d@giganews.com...
>>>>
>>>> "Andy Morrison"  wrote in message 
>>>> news:ga2uso$2e9$1@aioe.org...
>>>>> http://tinyurl.com/5hlfrc
>>>>
>>>> Awwwwwwwww your hero speaks,what a gal! Lorraine Kelly!lmao . Whats 
>>>> next,you going to drool over Ulrika's view on devolution?
>>>>
>>>> JB
>>>>
>>>
>>> Lorraine Kelly has had a sex change?????????????????? fuckwit
>>
>> Well i suppose you would have to go for the hero/heroine thing because 
>> people normally would do anything to try and swerve how stupid they look 
>> using Lorraine Kelly as an example of why things should 
>> change.....fucking classic lmfao . Hey shouldn't you be away to bed 
>> soon,Lorraines on early tomorrow i believe! lol
>>
>> JB
>>
> You are the classic one here, your bluster & rubbishing of other people, 
> does not for one minute wash with me. You are an ignoramus who does not 
> show a lot of perception when reading articles.

lmfao....your just pissed off because someones had a go about your beloved 
Lorraine Kelly! FFS away back to the GMTV website and enjoy yourself.But 
thanks for giving us a good laugh , been a tough week sports wise but that 
was a wee ray of sunshine,as you normally would say "what a fucking clown". 
lol

JB

"Andy Morrison" 
wrote in message news:ga2uso$2e9$1@aioe.org...
>
> http://tinyurl.com/5hlfrc

In terms of a causal link between different schools and sectarianism, it's 
more likely to be the case that different religions create an environment 
that leads to sectarianism. Not that I'm blaming Martin Luther for causing 
different religions ;). Apart from the justification of a "warm fuzzy 
feeling" that it must be so (i.e. the high brow thinking of breakfast 
television presentors), I'd imagine there is little or no evidence, academic 
or even jounalistic, of a causal link between children's schools and 
sectarianism. Additionally, it should be admitted that sectarianism existed 
before different schools in Scotland. Which is inconsistent with the 
hypothesis that schools caused sectarianism in Scotland. In terms of the 
argument that forcibly clsoing faith schools *may* help reduce sectarianism 
and promote integration, black and white kids are integrated in schools in 
the UK but you still get racism. If you forcibly shut down faith schools in 
Scotland, you'd still get anti-catholic and anti-protestant sectarianism, 
and a number of agrieved parents forcibly denied the opportunity to send 
their kids to a faith school.

Interestingly, don't alot of christened protestants go to faith schools and 
alot of baptised catholics go to non-denominational schools. That doesn't 
prevent sectarianism. Although it would be interesting to see what school 
most perpetrators of anti-catholic sectarianism went to. And what school 
most perpetrators of anti-protestant sectarianism went to. (There are other 
religions but I'm concentrating on the two most popular in Scotland).

Are you in The Loyal Orange Order Andy? Since this may influence your 
thinking. Might make you think that even if Rangers fans, the Orange Order, 
and indeed Celtic fans, were believed to be the major contributors towards 
sectarianism in Scotland, you would still want to shut down faith schools.

"Jonbhoy"  wrote in message 
news:paSdncjZc4ao_1jVnZ2dnUVZ8u6dnZ2d@giganews.com...
>

>
> Im actually all in favor of schools in the UK being non religious,be it 
> protestant,RC,Muslim etc for children . Id also ban all forms of religious 
> symbol because it seems no one can agree on whats ok and whats not (two 
> examples in my area were a girl told to remove a cross on a necklace yet 
> another girl allowed to wear muslim jewellery) , if it cant be agreed then 
> ban the lot and stuff PC ! But then im not a fan of religion so to me its 
> one of those things i feel kids should make their own mind up over and 
> when they are 18 go with what they want. However using Lorraine Kelly to 
> try and make a cheap swipe over religious schools has to be one of the 
> funniest things i have seen on the NG's.
>

NEWSFLASH

Smidsy agrees with something jonbhoy has said.

Also I would like to add that the sectarian employment policies of the 
religious schools is also a bone of contention.  Is there a Catholic form of 
Mathematics, Physics, Chemistry, HomeEconomics?  No on all counts.  I give 
these as serious examples as to the mis-application of the 1918 Education 
Act as it is being applied.  I cannot be employed in an RC school as a 
Physics and Maths teacher as I do not have RC approval, even though the 
posts I would apply for (if I wasn't emigrating to NZ) DO NOT REQUIRE RC 
Approval.  This is a travesty.  Emplyment should be based on competence not 
on religious affiliation.

"Jonbhoy"  wrote in message 
news:paSdncjZc4ao_1jVnZ2dnUVZ8u6dnZ2d@giganews.com...
>
> "> Im actually all in favor of schools in the UK being non religious...

So am I...at least the state should have nothing to do with it.

"Andy Morrison"  wrote in
news:ga4bn2$qka$1@aioe.org: 

> 
> "sme"  wrote in message 
> news:6ikthmFqvsi1U1@mid.individual.net...
>> "Andy Morrison"  wrote in
>> news:ga389a$lkh$1@aioe.org:
>>
>>>
>>> "Jim Mason" <jim&linda@gmail.com> wrote in message
>>> news:MPG.232f1d6f5fae39a0989a0e@news.individual.net...
>>>> In article <ga2uso$2e9$1@aioe.org>, andy@IbroxIsMyBlueHeaven.com
>>>> says...
>>>>> http://tinyurl.com
>>>>
>>>> I am not in favour of separate schools myself but there is the
>>>> counter argument that non-Catholic schools still produced people
>>>> with the mindset similar to yourself - but I suppose a 1950's style
>>>> bigoted outlook is always going to exist with certain insecure
>>>> people in any walk of life. I just never thought I would see the
>>>> day when such people were to put Lorraine Kelly forward as a role
>>>> model to further their narrow minded sectarian agenda ;-)
>>>
>>>
>>> I decided a while back that your constant inanity was not worth
>>> replying to.
>>>
>>> Just this once however, I will indulge your drivel, so please, pray
>>> enlighten me on what my mindset is.
>>>
>>> Since you so freely accuse in your statement above, I am sure that
>>> you will be able to furnish me with the proof of those allegations,
>>> including "specific" instances of my bigotedness, insecurity, narrow
>>> mindedness & sectarianism. The floor is all yours.
>>
>> What about returning all schools to the Catholic church? If its the
>> different schools that cause a problem then surely you would back a
>> return to all schools being the same?
>>
>> -- 
>> sme
> 
> I'm not advocating trying to remove people's religion. I'm advocating 
> removing religion from schools in an effort to bring our kids together
> & away from segregation at school gates. So there wouldn't be Catholic
> schools or non denominational schools, there would just be Scottish
> schools.

Cool! I'm in agreement with you here then. Schools for schooling!! :-)

> Children can deal with differences in others perfectly adequately if
> they are allowed. If they are schooled together right through their
> formative years, then religion doesn't become  divisive & carry
> through to adult society.

That was actually a far better point you put across there. I realise its 
probably what you meant but it was far easier to understand.

-- 
sme

"Oso" <osobear(beard)@ntlworld.com> wrote in
news:4pwxk.55275$E41.19141@text.news.virginmedia.com: 

> 
> "Jonbhoy"  wrote in message 
> news:paSdncjZc4ao_1jVnZ2dnUVZ8u6dnZ2d@giganews.com...
>>
> 
>>
>> Im actually all in favor of schools in the UK being non religious,be
>> it protestant,RC,Muslim etc for children . Id also ban all forms of
>> religious symbol because it seems no one can agree on whats ok and
>> whats not (two examples in my area were a girl told to remove a cross
>> on a necklace yet another girl allowed to wear muslim jewellery) , if
>> it cant be agreed then ban the lot and stuff PC ! But then im not a
>> fan of religion so to me its one of those things i feel kids should
>> make their own mind up over and when they are 18 go with what they
>> want. However using Lorraine Kelly to try and make a cheap swipe over
>> religious schools has to be one of the funniest things i have seen on
>> the NG's. 
>>
> 
> NEWSFLASH
> 
> Smidsy agrees with something jonbhoy has said.
> 
> Also I would like to add that the sectarian employment policies of the
> religious schools is also a bone of contention.  Is there a Catholic
> form of Mathematics, Physics, Chemistry, HomeEconomics?  No on all
> counts.  I give these as serious examples as to the mis-application of
> the 1918 Education Act as it is being applied.  I cannot be employed
> in an RC school as a Physics and Maths teacher as I do not have RC
> approval, even though the posts I would apply for (if I wasn't
> emigrating to NZ) DO NOT REQUIRE RC Approval.  This is a travesty. 
> Emplyment should be based on competence not on religious affiliation.

Aye but we all know you would be a lot harder on the good Celtic 
supporting pupils. ;-)

-- 
sme

In article <NIWdnW0pB9x1KFvVnZ2dnUVZ8uGdnZ2d@posted.plusnet>, fager1
@yahoo.co.uk says...
> 
> "Jonbhoy"  wrote in message 
> news:paSdncjZc4ao_1jVnZ2dnUVZ8u6dnZ2d@giganews.com...
> >
> > "> Im actually all in favor of schools in the UK being non religious...
> 
> So am I...at least the state should have nothing to do with it. 

I couldn't agree more.

"sme"  wrote in message 
news:6ins1bFno1a7U3@mid.individual.net...

>
> Aye but we all know you would be a lot harder on the good Celtic
> supporting pupils. ;-)
>
Aye Right.  This is actually a long standing argument I have been involved 
in with on the Times Educational Supplement (TES) Website.  We have a muppet 
whose user name is Aber1991, who insists that only practicing RC teachers 
should teach RC children as Protestants are physically an mentally incapable 
of teaching RC children without discriminating against them and bullying 
them.  Which part of "yer a bigoted fuckwit" does he not understand.

As a teacher, my first and over-riding priority is to get the most out of 
the pupils so that they can get the best from their educational 
opportunities.  99.99% of teachers don't give a screaming chuff what 
religion a kid is, as they are more interested in "have you done the work 
set?", "do you understand the points I'm making?" and "is the homework 
done?" .  Those who do exhibit sectarianism are usually in front of the 
GTC(S), who Aber1991 has unjustly accused of anti-RC bias, and being 
censured.  If you search the past cases, there is sufficient evidence to 
show that the few teachers who do show a sectarian bias, get booted out of 
the profession very quickly.

Teachers are railing at the injustice of a system which says that "sorry we 
can't give you this job because you are not RC" and nothing to do with 
competence.

"Oso" <osobear(beard)@ntlworld.com> wrote in message 
news:IvDxk.55538$E41.6228@text.news.virginmedia.com...
>
> "sme"  wrote in message 
> news:6ins1bFno1a7U3@mid.individual.net...
>
>>
>> Aye but we all know you would be a lot harder on the good Celtic
>> supporting pupils. ;-)
>>
> Aye Right.  This is actually a long standing argument I have been involved 
> in with on the Times Educational Supplement (TES) Website.  We have a 
> muppet whose user name is Aber1991, who insists that only practicing RC 
> teachers should teach RC children as Protestants are physically an 
> mentally incapable of teaching RC children without discriminating against 
> them and bullying them.  Which part of "yer a bigoted fuckwit" does he not 
> understand.
>
> As a teacher, my first and over-riding priority is to get the most out of 
> the pupils so that they can get the best from their educational 
> opportunities.  99.99% of teachers don't give a screaming chuff what 
> religion a kid is, as they are more interested in "have you done the work 
> set?", "do you understand the points I'm making?" and "is the homework 
> done?" .  Those who do exhibit sectarianism are usually in front of the 
> GTC(S), who Aber1991 has unjustly accused of anti-RC bias, and being 
> censured.  If you search the past cases, there is sufficient evidence to 
> show that the few teachers who do show a sectarian bias, get booted out of 
> the profession very quickly.
>
> Teachers are railing at the injustice of a system which says that "sorry 
> we can't give you this job because you are not RC" and nothing to do with 
> competence.

In these days of equal opportunities, how can it be legal to deny someone a 
teaching job on the basis of religion? I can understand if they are teaching 
the Catholic faith, but if they are teaching Mats, English etc, I cant see 
any sort of justification.

"ZB"  wrote in message 
news:6ip8adFs2gu4U1@mid.individual.net...
>
> In these days of equal opportunities, how can it be legal to deny someone 
> a teaching job on the basis of religion? I can understand if they are 
> teaching the Catholic faith, but if they are teaching Mats, English etc, I 
> cant see any sort of justification.
It is not.  It was challenged a few years back and GCC lost the case where a 
teacher was discriminated against on the grounds of religion, or rather lack 
of religion.  The council then just ignored the ruling and the 1918 
Education Act is still being mis-applied by a lot of councils.

On 2008-09-10 07:38:03 +0100, "ZB"  said:

> 
> "Oso" <osobear(beard)@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
> news:IvDxk.55538$E41.6228@text.news.virginmedia.com...
>> 
>> "sme"  wrote in message
>> news:6ins1bFno1a7U3@mid.individual.net...
>> 
>>> 
>>> Aye but we all know you would be a lot harder on the good Celtic
>>> supporting pupils. ;-)
>>> 
>> Aye Right.  This is actually a long standing argument I have been involved
>> in with on the Times Educational Supplement (TES) Website.  We have a
>> muppet whose user name is Aber1991, who insists that only practicing RC
>> teachers should teach RC children as Protestants are physically an
>> mentally incapable of teaching RC children without discriminating against
>> them and bullying them.  Which part of "yer a bigoted fuckwit" does he not
>> understand.
>> 
>> As a teacher, my first and over-riding priority is to get the most out of
>> the pupils so that they can get the best from their educational
>> opportunities.  99.99% of teachers don't give a screaming chuff what
>> religion a kid is, as they are more interested in "have you done the work
>> set?", "do you understand the points I'm making?" and "is the homework
>> done?" .  Those who do exhibit sectarianism are usually in front of the
>> GTC(S), who Aber1991 has unjustly accused of anti-RC bias, and being
>> censured.  If you search the past cases, there is sufficient evidence to
>> show that the few teachers who do show a sectarian bias, get booted out of
>> the profession very quickly.
>> 
>> Teachers are railing at the injustice of a system which says that "sorry
>> we can't give you this job because you are not RC" and nothing to do with
>> competence.
> 
> In these days of equal opportunities, how can it be legal to deny someone a
> teaching job on the basis of religion?

I've always wondered how they manage to get specific actors based on 
colour, sex, etc.  Obviously to make a film about, say, Muhammed Ali, 
you need a black, male actor.  But is it legal to advertise for one, 
and indeed turn down a white, female actor purely based on her colour 
and/or sex?

"Moody Marco"  wrote in message 
news:2008091018204875249-mcrobiem@yahoocom...
> On 2008-09-10 07:38:03 +0100, "ZB"  said:

>> In these days of equal opportunities, how can it be legal to deny someone 
>> a
>> teaching job on the basis of religion?
>
> I've always wondered how they manage to get specific actors based on 
> colour, sex, etc.  Obviously to make a film about, say, Muhammed Ali, you 
> need a black, male actor.  But is it legal to advertise for one, and 
> indeed turn down a white, female actor purely based on her colour and/or 
> sex?
>

Spurious argument there Marco.  Fitting the requirements for an acting role 
and competence for a professional job are slightly different.

On 8 Sep, 12:31, Jim Mason <jim&li...@gmail.com> wrote:
> In article <ga2uso$2e...@aioe.org>, a...@IbroxIsMyBlueHeaven.com says...
>
> >http://tinyurl.com
>
> I am not in favour of separate schools myself but there is the counter
> argument that non-Catholic schools still produced people with the mindset
> similar to yourself - but I suppose a 1950's style bigoted outlook is
> always going to exist with certain insecure people in any walk of life. I
> just never thought I would see the day when such people were to put
> Lorraine Kelly forward as a role model to further their narrow minded
> sectarian agenda ;-)

Bigotry is tought in the home NOT the schools

In article <c2dc0e12-9c36-43c4-8b81-2367847b1863
@e53g2000hsa.googlegroups.com>, number_18_lennon@hotmail.co.uk says...

> Bigotry is tought in the home NOT the schools

And spelling? ;-)

-- 
http://www.glasgow-edinburgh.co.uk/

"Oso" <osobear(beard)@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:_7Nxk.55655$E41.44688@text.news.virginmedia.com...
> "ZB"  wrote in message 
> news:6ip8adFs2gu4U1@mid.individual.net...
>>
>> In these days of equal opportunities, how can it be legal to deny someone 
>> a teaching job on the basis of religion? I can understand if they are 
>> teaching the Catholic faith, but if they are teaching Mats, English etc, 
>> I cant see any sort of justification.
>
> It is not.  It was challenged a few years back and GCC lost the case where 
> a teacher was discriminated against on the grounds of religion, or rather 
> lack of religion.  The council then just ignored the ruling and the 1918 
> Education Act is still being mis-applied by a lot of councils.

I'm not sure that in practice the Scottish Catholic Education Service 
applies a veto on all positions in secondary schools in Scotland. For 
example, I don't think it has applied a veto on non-catholic Maths and 
English teachers. Isn't it only things like guidance and head, deputy head 
etc. Certainly David McNab, an atheist, went to an employment tribunal with 
GCC on the basis of his application for such a promoted post. But he was 
already in the school, I think, as a maths teacher.

"Moody Marco"  wrote in message
news:2008091018204875249-mcrobiem@yahoocom...
> On 2008-09-10 07:38:03 +0100, "ZB"  said:
>>
>> "Oso" <osobear(beard)@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
>> news:IvDxk.55538$E41.6228@text.news.virginmedia.com...
>>>
>>> "sme"  wrote in message
>>> news:6ins1bFno1a7U3@mid.individual.net...
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Aye but we all know you would be a lot harder on the good Celtic
>>>> supporting pupils. ;-)
>>>>
>>> Aye Right.  This is actually a long standing argument I have been 
>>> involved
>>> in with on the Times Educational Supplement (TES) Website.  We have a
>>> muppet whose user name is Aber1991, who insists that only practicing RC
>>> teachers should teach RC children as Protestants are physically an
>>> mentally incapable of teaching RC children without discriminating 
>>> against
>>> them and bullying them.  Which part of "yer a bigoted fuckwit" does he 
>>> not
>>> understand.
>>>
>>> As a teacher, my first and over-riding priority is to get the most out 
>>> of
>>> the pupils so that they can get the best from their educational
>>> opportunities.  99.99% of teachers don't give a screaming chuff what
>>> religion a kid is, as they are more interested in "have you done the 
>>> work
>>> set?", "do you understand the points I'm making?" and "is the homework
>>> done?" .  Those who do exhibit sectarianism are usually in front of the
>>> GTC(S), who Aber1991 has unjustly accused of anti-RC bias, and being
>>> censured.  If you search the past cases, there is sufficient evidence to
>>> show that the few teachers who do show a sectarian bias, get booted out 
>>> of
>>> the profession very quickly.
>>>
>>> Teachers are railing at the injustice of a system which says that "sorry
>>> we can't give you this job because you are not RC" and nothing to do 
>>> with
>>> competence.
>>
>> In these days of equal opportunities, how can it be legal to deny someone 
>> a
>> teaching job on the basis of religion?
>
> I've always wondered how they manage to get specific actors based on 
> colour, sex, etc.  Obviously to make a film about, say, Muhammed Ali, you 
> need a black, male actor.  But is it legal to advertise for one, and 
> indeed turn down a white, female actor purely based on her colour and/or 
> sex?

The one I wonder about is how you can preclude people on the basis of their 
nationality for a job and that is consistent with the equal opportunities 
legislation. So if you had an Italian living in Glasgow and he was prevented 
from a job on the basis of his birthplace, I'd imagine he could take it to 
an employment tribunal. But wouldn't Paolo De Canio have been precluded from 
playing for Scotland? I'm sure there are loads of anomalies like that and 
the one you suggest Marco.

"Moody Marco"  wrote in message 
news:2008091018204875249-mcrobiem@yahoocom...
> On 2008-09-10 07:38:03 +0100, "ZB"  said:
>
>>
>> "Oso" <osobear(beard)@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
>> news:IvDxk.55538$E41.6228@text.news.virginmedia.com...
>>>
>>> "sme"  wrote in message
>>> news:6ins1bFno1a7U3@mid.individual.net...
>>>
>>>>
>>>> Aye but we all know you would be a lot harder on the good Celtic
>>>> supporting pupils. ;-)
>>>>
>>> Aye Right.  This is actually a long standing argument I have been 
>>> involved
>>> in with on the Times Educational Supplement (TES) Website.  We have a
>>> muppet whose user name is Aber1991, who insists that only practicing RC
>>> teachers should teach RC children as Protestants are physically an
>>> mentally incapable of teaching RC children without discriminating 
>>> against
>>> them and bullying them.  Which part of "yer a bigoted fuckwit" does he 
>>> not
>>> understand.
>>>
>>> As a teacher, my first and over-riding priority is to get the most out 
>>> of
>>> the pupils so that they can get the best from their educational
>>> opportunities.  99.99% of teachers don't give a screaming chuff what
>>> religion a kid is, as they are more interested in "have you done the 
>>> work
>>> set?", "do you understand the points I'm making?" and "is the homework
>>> done?" .  Those who do exhibit sectarianism are usually in front of the
>>> GTC(S), who Aber1991 has unjustly accused of anti-RC bias, and being
>>> censured.  If you search the past cases, there is sufficient evidence to
>>> show that the few teachers who do show a sectarian bias, get booted out 
>>> of
>>> the profession very quickly.
>>>
>>> Teachers are railing at the injustice of a system which says that "sorry
>>> we can't give you this job because you are not RC" and nothing to do 
>>> with
>>> competence.
>>
>> In these days of equal opportunities, how can it be legal to deny someone 
>> a
>> teaching job on the basis of religion?
>
> I've always wondered how they manage to get specific actors based on 
> colour, sex, etc.  Obviously to make a film about, say, Muhammed Ali, you 
> need a black, male actor.  But is it legal to advertise for one, and 
> indeed turn down a white, female actor purely based on her colour and/or 
> sex?
>
I don't think that they actually advertise for actors to fill roles. The 
protocol is that the director sends the script to an actor of their choice 
to see if said actor would be interested in taking the role.

Andy.

"Y.N.W.A"  wrote in message 
news:c2dc0e12-9c36-43c4-8b81-2367847b1863@e53g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
> On 8 Sep, 12:31, Jim Mason <jim&li...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> In article <ga2uso$2e...@aioe.org>, a...@IbroxIsMyBlueHeaven.com says...
>>
>> >http://tinyurl.com
>>
>> I am not in favour of separate schools myself but there is the counter
>> argument that non-Catholic schools still produced people with the mindset
>> similar to yourself - but I suppose a 1950's style bigoted outlook is
>> always going to exist with certain insecure people in any walk of life. I
>> just never thought I would see the day when such people were to put
>> Lorraine Kelly forward as a role model to further their narrow minded
>> sectarian agenda ;-)
>
> Bigotry is tought in the home NOT the schools

Separation re-enforces differences and intolerance.

On 2008-09-10 19:18:48 +0100, "Oso" <osobear(beard)@ntlworld.com> said:

> 
> "Moody Marco"  wrote in message
> news:2008091018204875249-mcrobiem@yahoocom...
>> On 2008-09-10 07:38:03 +0100, "ZB"  said:
> 
>>> In these days of equal opportunities, how can it be legal to deny someone
>>> a
>>> teaching job on the basis of religion?
>> 
>> I've always wondered how they manage to get specific actors based on
>> colour, sex, etc.  Obviously to make a film about, say, Muhammed Ali, you
>> need a black, male actor.  But is it legal to advertise for one, and
>> indeed turn down a white, female actor purely based on her colour and/or
>> sex?
>> 
> 
> Spurious argument there Marco.  Fitting the requirements for an acting role
> and competence for a professional job are slightly different.

I thought, in terms of the law, that employment was employment, full stop?

"Moody Marco"  wrote in message 
news:2008091218265375249-mcrobiem@yahoocom...
> On 2008-09-10 19:18:48 +0100, "Oso" <osobear(beard)@ntlworld.com> said:
>
>>
>> "Moody Marco"  wrote in message
>> news:2008091018204875249-mcrobiem@yahoocom...
>>> On 2008-09-10 07:38:03 +0100, "ZB"  said:
>>
>>>> In these days of equal opportunities, how can it be legal to deny 
>>>> someone
>>>> a
>>>> teaching job on the basis of religion?
>>>
>>> I've always wondered how they manage to get specific actors based on
>>> colour, sex, etc.  Obviously to make a film about, say, Muhammed Ali, 
>>> you
>>> need a black, male actor.  But is it legal to advertise for one, and
>>> indeed turn down a white, female actor purely based on her colour and/or
>>> sex?
>>>
>>
>> Spurious argument there Marco.  Fitting the requirements for an acting 
>> role
>> and competence for a professional job are slightly different.
>
> I thought, in terms of the law, that employment was employment, full stop?
>
There are exempted jobs but usually on the grounds of gender like having a 
female toilet attendant in female toilets.

However I am arguing that deciding employment suitablity on grounds of 
religion is discriminatory as religion has no bearing on how well you can 
teach.

"Oso" <osobear(beard)@ntlworld.com> wrote in news:gyYxk.56001$E41.17390
@text.news.virginmedia.com:

>> Bigotry is tought in the home NOT the schools
> 
> Separation re-enforces differences and intolerance. 

Re-enforces, not causes. There are plenty of occasions where people are 
seperated as much as they are when at school. Working life for example. 
You yourself were seperated from civilian life for a while when in the 
forces but you havent built an intolerance for civilian life.

Bigotry and sectarianism is something like a virus. If you are around 
people with those views then they will likely rub off on you and the 
longer you are in their company then the more ingrained they can become.

-- 
sme

"sme"  wrote in message 
news:6j1bdnFvf0cU1@mid.individual.net...
> "Oso" <osobear(beard)@ntlworld.com> wrote in news:gyYxk.56001$E41.17390
> @text.news.virginmedia.com:
>
>>> Bigotry is tought in the home NOT the schools
>>
>> Separation re-enforces differences and intolerance.
>
> Re-enforces, not causes. There are plenty of occasions where people are
> seperated as much as they are when at school. Working life for example.
> You yourself were seperated from civilian life for a while when in the
> forces but you havent built an intolerance for civilian life.
>
> Bigotry and sectarianism is something like a virus. If you are around
> people with those views then they will likely rub off on you and the
> longer you are in their company then the more ingrained they can become.
>

However if you have no alternate input which can refute sectarian views you 
are hearing then the POV is never challenged.  Also isolation can re-enforce 
sectarianism by putting people of a like mind together so that their views 
are feeding off of each other.

sme  wrote in news:6j1bdnFvf0cU1@mid.individual.net:


> Re-enforces, not causes. There are plenty of occasions where people
> are seperated as much as they are when at school. Working life for
> example. You yourself were seperated from civilian life for a while
> when in the forces but you havent built an intolerance for civilian
> life. 
> 
> Bigotry and sectarianism is something like a virus. If you are around 
> people with those views then they will likely rub off on you and the 
> longer you are in their company then the more ingrained they can
> become. 

Where I grew up it was a new council estate where most of the people who
moved in had children of the same age and had been allocated places
because their famillies had outgrown their previous accomodation. I was
around four at the time and there were probably about 20 kids in the
street who played together. When it came the time to start school around
75 percent of us went to the local ND school and the rest the local
Catholic school. We all still played together after school but
eventually drifted apart as we went to different schools and obviously
developed more of a bond towards the kids we seen on a daily basis. By
the time we about to reach secondary school age there were a few who
were turning rabidly Anti-Catholic, fenian this, tarrier that. I can't
help but feel that if we were all schooled together then those who were
giving it the "fenian" patter (and were probably getting it from their
parents) would have had the opportunity to make their own minds up.

"liam*"  wrote in
news:48c827fc$1_2@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com: 

> I'm not sure that in practice the Scottish Catholic Education Service 
> applies a veto on all positions in secondary schools in Scotland. For 
> example, I don't think it has applied a veto on non-catholic Maths and
> English teachers. Isn't it only things like guidance and head, deputy
> head etc. 

Shouldn't a guidance teacher be there purely to advise on curricular 
matters, or anything else they would do in a ND school? I'd imagine that 
anything of a more spiritual matter should be directed towards a priest. 
It's like saying the Prime Minister shouldn't have anything to do with the 
Army because he's never been in military service.

"guitierrez"  wrote in message 
news:Xns9B1922D2164F4guit@130.133.1.4...
> "liam*"  wrote in
> news:48c827fc$1_2@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com:
>
>> I'm not sure that in practice the Scottish Catholic Education Service
>> applies a veto on all positions in secondary schools in Scotland. For
>> example, I don't think it has applied a veto on non-catholic Maths and
>> English teachers. Isn't it only things like guidance and head, deputy
>> head etc.
>
> Shouldn't a guidance teacher be there purely to advise on curricular
> matters, or anything else they would do in a ND school? I'd imagine that
> anything of a more spiritual matter should be directed towards a priest.
> It's like saying the Prime Minister shouldn't have anything to do with the
> Army because he's never been in military service.

Liam, I didn't see your reply as you are in my killfile.

I have been veto'd for a post in an RC School.  When I was about to start my 
probationary year for Physics I called GCC to see which school I was to go 
to and I was told that I hadn't been placed yet and GCC were shuffling the 
placements as they had tried to place me in an RC school but I had been 
veto'd by the diocese.  I asked why and the droid at GCC said that I was 
regarded as being unsuitable for an RC school due to my prior employment. 
For some reason they objected to having an ex-airborne forces officer in 
their schools.

Also all head of department or faculty posts and above are only open to RC 
applicants.  That is surely discrimination on grounds of religion.  What 
bearing does a person's religion have on their ability to organise a 
curriculum to SQA requirements, manage teachers and taking a higher role in 
discipline?  None.

"guitierrez"  wrote in message
news:Xns9B1922D2164F4guit@130.133.1.4...
> "liam*"  wrote in
> news:48c827fc$1_2@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com:
>
>> I'm not sure that in practice the Scottish Catholic Education Service
>> applies a veto on all positions in secondary schools in Scotland. For
>> example, I don't think it has applied a veto on non-catholic Maths and
>> English teachers. Isn't it only things like guidance and head, deputy
>> head etc.
>
> Shouldn't a guidance teacher be there purely to advise on curricular
> matters, or anything else they would do in a ND school? I'd imagine that
> anything of a more spiritual matter should be directed towards a priest.
> It's like saying the Prime Minister shouldn't have anything to do with the
> Army because he's never been in military service.

Whether guidance teachers should be required to provide spiritual leadership 
in catholic schools and whether being a catholic, whose has attended 
specific pedagogical courses and would have clearence from the SCES and a 
PP, makes them best suited to the job is an interesting question. Also, I'd 
guess that the Prime Minister makes military decisions after consultation 
with the Army etc. But it would be strange to appoint an idiot-sevant as the 
leader of a country (although that might take place in the United States 
;) ). Seems we're getting away from the simple point I'm making in this 
sub-thread. Non-catholics are employed in catholic secondary schools in 
Scotland.

"Oso" <osobear(beard)@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:En4zk.57428$E41.22834@text.news.virginmedia.com...
> "guitierrez"  wrote in message 
> news:Xns9B1922D2164F4guit@130.133.1.4...
>> "liam*"  wrote in
>> news:48c827fc$1_2@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com:
>>
>>> I'm not sure that in practice the Scottish Catholic Education Service
>>> applies a veto on all positions in secondary schools in Scotland. For
>>> example, I don't think it has applied a veto on non-catholic Maths and
>>> English teachers. Isn't it only things like guidance and head, deputy
>>> head etc.
>>
>> Shouldn't a guidance teacher be there purely to advise on curricular
>> matters, or anything else they would do in a ND school? I'd imagine that
>> anything of a more spiritual matter should be directed towards a priest.
>> It's like saying the Prime Minister shouldn't have anything to do with 
>> the
>> Army because he's never been in military service.
>
> Liam, I didn't see your reply as you are in my killfile.
>
> I have been veto'd for a post in an RC School.  When I was about to start 
> my probationary year for Physics I called GCC to see which school I was to 
> go to and I was told that I hadn't been placed yet and GCC were shuffling 
> the placements as they had tried to place me in an RC school but I had 
> been veto'd by the diocese.  I asked why and the droid at GCC said that I 
> was regarded as being unsuitable for an RC school due to my prior 
> employment. For some reason they objected to having an ex-airborne forces 
> officer in their schools.
>
> Also all head of department or faculty posts and above are only open to RC 
> applicants.  That is surely discrimination on grounds of religion.  What 
> bearing does a person's religion have on their ability to organise a 
> curriculum to SQA requirements, manage teachers and taking a higher role 
> in discipline?  None.

The only point I'm making is that there are protestants and atheist that 
teach in denominational (i.e. catholic) schools. Seems strange that you got 
rejected since you're a para.

"guitierrez"  wrote in message
news:Xns9B191AD6F57C8guit@130.133.1.4...
> sme  wrote in
news:6j1bdnFvf0cU1@mid.individual.net:
>
>> Re-enforces, not causes. There are plenty of occasions where people
>> are seperated as much as they are when at school. Working life for
>> example. You yourself were seperated from civilian life for a while
>> when in the forces but you havent built an intolerance for civilian
>> life.
>>
>> Bigotry and sectarianism is something like a virus. If you are around
>> people with those views then they will likely rub off on you and the
>> longer you are in their company then the more ingrained they can
>> become.
>
> Where I grew up it was a new council estate where most of the people who
> moved in had children of the same age and had been allocated places
> because their famillies had outgrown their previous accomodation. I was
> around four at the time and there were probably about 20 kids in the
> street who played together. When it came the time to start school around
> 75 percent of us went to the local ND school and the rest the local
> Catholic school. We all still played together after school but
> eventually drifted apart as we went to different schools and obviously
> developed more of a bond towards the kids we seen on a daily basis. By
> the time we about to reach secondary school age there were a few who
> were turning rabidly Anti-Catholic, fenian this, tarrier that. I can't
> help but feel that if we were all schooled together then those who were
> giving it the "fenian" patter (and were probably getting it from their
> parents) would have had the opportunity to make their own minds up.

With me it's more the opposite. I'm more in contact with people from my 
street (non-catholic), more than people from my school (catholics). I'd 
suspect there is an economic division at work but I'd suspect we'd not get 
many Rangers fans on here demanding the end of the current socio-economic 
system. ;) Also, when I went to uni, it was all the Celtic fans I hung 
around. This was obviously an integrated environment (which would be like 
integrated secondary schools). I wasn't forced to hang around with the 
Celtic fans but you do, since you have a shared culture (i.e. football). If 
there is a common denominator in west of Scotland divisions, I'd say it's 
more football than anything else. But you'll never get a Rangers fan on here 
saying his club causes sectarianism and one should shut Ibrox down before a 
catholic school gets borded up. Funny that...

But it's not an unreasonable point that you make guitierrez. Although is it 
right abandoning something very worthwhile to parents (i.e. teaching their 
children in a school with a catholic ethos), since there are some real 
sectarian numpties out there? So it's entirely a cost-benefit analysis of 
shutting down catholic schools. What are the costs: you can no longer send 
your child to a school of your choosing. What are the benefits: the numpties 
no longer exist. For me the costs are clear and the benefits unclear, whilst 
for you it's probably the other way around. For me, the benefits are unclear 
since you get racism even when black and white kids are integrated. And 
you'd still get sectarianism in Scotland with integrated schools but two 
sets of football supporters whose rivalry is often of a sectarian nature.

Seems amazing that noone has made this point in this thread. Maybe some 
Celtic and Rangers fans love their club more than they would want to 
eradicate sectarianism. Schools are just a sideshow, and often those that 
want them shut (i.e. thick Jim in the past) are just expressing their own 
sectarianism (another point rarely recognised by Rangers fans).

"Oso" <osobear(beard)@ntlworld.com> wrote in message 
news:gyYxk.56001$E41.17390@text.news.virginmedia.com...
>
> "Y.N.W.A"  wrote in message 
> news:c2dc0e12-9c36-43c4-8b81-2367847b1863@e53g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
>> On 8 Sep, 12:31, Jim Mason <jim&li...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> In article <ga2uso$2e...@aioe.org>, a...@IbroxIsMyBlueHeaven.com says...
>>>
>>> >http://tinyurl.com
>>>
>>> I am not in favour of separate schools myself but there is the counter
>>> argument that non-Catholic schools still produced people with the 
>>> mindset
>>> similar to yourself - but I suppose a 1950's style bigoted outlook is
>>> always going to exist with certain insecure people in any walk of life. 
>>> I
>>> just never thought I would see the day when such people were to put
>>> Lorraine Kelly forward as a role model to further their narrow minded
>>> sectarian agenda ;-)
>>
>> Bigotry is tought in the home NOT the schools
>
> Separation re-enforces differences and intolerance.
>
Only in people that are intolerant to differences.

Parents should have the freedom to choose.   A faith school hasn't been my 
choice but I reckon only bigots would have a problem with people who do 
choose to go that way.

Doesn't seem to be a problem down south.

"dü the hüsker"  wrote in message 
news:Egvzk.25832$KW1.10482@newsfe20.ams2...

> Only in people that are intolerant to differences.
>
> Parents should have the freedom to choose.   A faith school hasn't been my 
> choice but I reckon only bigots would have a problem with people who do 
> choose to go that way.
>
> Doesn't seem to be a problem down south.
I object to segregated education not just because of what I have seen here 
but what I have seen in the Balkans where education was being used as a tool 
to spread hatred.  Inclusion promotes tolerance and what I want to see is a 
society where people don't get knifed because they are wearing the "wrong" 
football top.  I'd hardly call that bigotry, more likely I'd vall that 
wanting to end bigotry.

There is a disassociation within this nation that is being re-enforced by 
segregation.  The ending of that disassociation would improve society.  So I 
could equally argue that those who want to be "pro-choice" are actually 
being the bigots as they wish to keep that disassociation going.

Also the argument as to not having that problem down south is true but there 
wasn't the recent history of instututionalised intolerance in England that 
there was in Scotland.

"dü the hüsker"  wrote in message 
news:Egvzk.25832$KW1.10482@newsfe20.ams2...
>
> "Oso" <osobear(beard)@ntlworld.com> wrote in message 
> news:gyYxk.56001$E41.17390@text.news.virginmedia.com...
>>
>> "Y.N.W.A"  wrote in message 
>> news:c2dc0e12-9c36-43c4-8b81-2367847b1863@e53g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
>>> On 8 Sep, 12:31, Jim Mason <jim&li...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> In article <ga2uso$2e...@aioe.org>, a...@IbroxIsMyBlueHeaven.com 
>>>> says...
>>>>
>>>> >http://tinyurl.com
>>>>
>>>> I am not in favour of separate schools myself but there is the counter
>>>> argument that non-Catholic schools still produced people with the 
>>>> mindset
>>>> similar to yourself - but I suppose a 1950's style bigoted outlook is
>>>> always going to exist with certain insecure people in any walk of life. 
>>>> I
>>>> just never thought I would see the day when such people were to put
>>>> Lorraine Kelly forward as a role model to further their narrow minded
>>>> sectarian agenda ;-)
>>>
>>> Bigotry is tought in the home NOT the schools
>>
>> Separation re-enforces differences and intolerance.
>>
> Only in people that are intolerant to differences.
>

Nah, only in people who are too weak willed to know their own mind.

> Parents should have the freedom to choose.   A faith school hasn't been my 
> choice but I reckon only bigots would have a problem with people who do 
> choose to go that way.
>

Let's have one state run, non religious schooling system in Scotland & let's 
put an end to segregation. Sod religion, let's think about kids first. After 
that people who want choice can pay to have their kids taught at faith 
schools, or take them to church, now there's a novel thought. In fact if 
churches want children to have a religious education then maybe the churches 
should finance the expense of this, after all it is to their benefit.

> Doesn't seem to be a problem down south.
F**k down south, let's try a Scottish model, we should be interested in 
"Scottish" children & the constant division of our communities on a 
religious basis.

I truly believe most parents in Scotland, given the choice, would prefer 
integrated schooling as opposed to the present system.

guitierrez  wrote in 
news:Xns9B191AD6F57C8guit@130.133.1.4:

> sme  wrote in news:6j1bdnFvf0cU1@mid.individual.net:
> 
> 
>> Re-enforces, not causes. There are plenty of occasions where people
>> are seperated as much as they are when at school. Working life for
>> example. You yourself were seperated from civilian life for a while
>> when in the forces but you havent built an intolerance for civilian
>> life. 
>> 
>> Bigotry and sectarianism is something like a virus. If you are around 
>> people with those views then they will likely rub off on you and the 
>> longer you are in their company then the more ingrained they can
>> become. 
> 
> Where I grew up it was a new council estate where most of the people 
who
> moved in had children of the same age and had been allocated places
> because their famillies had outgrown their previous accomodation. I was
> around four at the time and there were probably about 20 kids in the
> street who played together. When it came the time to start school 
around
> 75 percent of us went to the local ND school and the rest the local
> Catholic school. We all still played together after school but
> eventually drifted apart as we went to different schools and obviously
> developed more of a bond towards the kids we seen on a daily basis. By
> the time we about to reach secondary school age there were a few who
> were turning rabidly Anti-Catholic, fenian this, tarrier that. I can't
> help but feel that if we were all schooled together then those who were
> giving it the "fenian" patter (and were probably getting it from their
> parents) would have had the opportunity to make their own minds up.

So get rid of the Catholic schools so they don't have anyone to call 
fenians?

I've always been of the opinion that religious intolerance is something 
we are taught not at school but at home and at play. You hang about with 
other guys from your school, they are all trying to big themselves up and 
think calling people names is the way. Then you think coz they do it so 
should you and then you've started down the rocky road of peer pressure.

Its a bit like this nonsense of a minutes applause at games. We're just 
covering it up. It would change these idiots views, just mask them and 
drown them out. At least a minutes silence you could identify the idiots 
and deal with them (although clubs seem a bit too reluctant to ban their 
own fans).

-- 
sme

sme  wrote in news:6jhtiqF3dk0oU2@mid.individual.net:

> guitierrez  wrote in 
> news:Xns9B191AD6F57C8guit@130.133.1.4:
> 
>> sme  wrote in
>> news:6j1bdnFvf0cU1@mid.individual.net: 
>> 
>> 
>>> Re-enforces, not causes. There are plenty of occasions where people
>>> are seperated as much as they are when at school. Working life for
>>> example. You yourself were seperated from civilian life for a while
>>> when in the forces but you havent built an intolerance for civilian
>>> life. 
>>> 
>>> Bigotry and sectarianism is something like a virus. If you are
>>> around people with those views then they will likely rub off on you
>>> and the longer you are in their company then the more ingrained they
>>> can become. 
>> 
>> Where I grew up it was a new council estate where most of the people 
> who
>> moved in had children of the same age and had been allocated places
>> because their famillies had outgrown their previous accomodation. I
>> was around four at the time and there were probably about 20 kids in
>> the street who played together. When it came the time to start school
> around
>> 75 percent of us went to the local ND school and the rest the local
>> Catholic school. We all still played together after school but
>> eventually drifted apart as we went to different schools and
>> obviously developed more of a bond towards the kids we seen on a
>> daily basis. By the time we about to reach secondary school age there
>> were a few who were turning rabidly Anti-Catholic, fenian this,
>> tarrier that. I can't help but feel that if we were all schooled
>> together then those who were giving it the "fenian" patter (and were
>> probably getting it from their parents) would have had the
>> opportunity to make their own minds up. 
> 
> So get rid of the Catholic schools so they don't have anyone to call 
> fenians?
> 
> I've always been of the opinion that religious intolerance is
> something we are taught not at school but at home and at play. You
> hang about with other guys from your school, they are all trying to
> big themselves up and think calling people names is the way. Then you
> think coz they do it so should you and then you've started down the
> rocky road of peer pressure. 
> 
> Its a bit like this nonsense of a minutes applause at games. We're
> just covering it up. It would change these idiots views, just mask
> them and drown them out. At least a minutes silence you could identify
> the idiots and deal with them (although clubs seem a bit too reluctant
> to ban their own fans).

Won't change their views i meant.

-- 
sme

"sme"  wrote in message 
news:6jhvtqF3dk0oU3@mid.individual.net...

>> So get rid of the Catholic schools so they don't have anyone to call
>> fenians?
>>
>> I've always been of the opinion that religious intolerance is
>> something we are taught not at school but at home and at play. You
>> hang about with other guys from your school, they are all trying to
>> big themselves up and think calling people names is the way. Then you
>> think coz they do it so should you and then you've started down the
>> rocky road of peer pressure.
>>
>> Its a bit like this nonsense of a minutes applause at games. We're
>> just covering it up. It would change these idiots views, just mask
>> them and drown them out. At least a minutes silence you could identify
>> the idiots and deal with them (although clubs seem a bit too reluctant
>> to ban their own fans).
>
> Won't change their views i meant.
>
On your first point, I beg to differ.  Proximity counters intolerance 
because a child may hear the parents bigotry but they have differing 
personal experiences due to enforced contact.  When the OECD was developing 
their plan to drag Bosnia and Herzegovina out of the 16th Century, they 
decided to take the long view and use the education system as part of the 
countering of religious intolerance.  The OECD saw that if children played 
and were taught together, then the views of the parents could be countered 
by that physical contact.  It is a very long view and will take 2-3 school 
generations but being honest it has started to yield results already.  Sasa 
Papac is called a Bosnian, not a Bosnian Croat or Bosnian Muslim or Bosnian 
Serb.  15 years ago he would have been called a Bosnian Croat not just a 
Bosnian.

When you seek to divide a nation, you must remove the victim group from the 
mainstream of society.  We saw this with the Jews in the Pale of Settlement 
in Russia in the 19th Century, the Ghettoisation of the Jews under the 
Nazis, aparteid in South Africa and racial segregation in Americas deep 
South.  We also see it today in some of the ghettoisation of towns with 
areas being called "white" "Muslim" and "black", the prime examples of this 
being places like Bradford and Luton.  Due to the geographic nature of 
education, if an area becomes ghettoised, then the schools also become 
ghettoised.  The BNP and radical Muslims are using this ghettoisation to 
engender mistrust.  If we have a further ghettoisation within society along 
the lines of religion, then we give the bigots of both sides a weapon to use 
in the promotion of religious intolerance.

On the second point, I agree that the perpetrators intolerance be banned 
from football.  I would love to see it but clubs don't like it as it hits 
their revenue streams.  Name, shame and expel those who have bigoted views.

"Oso" <osobear(beard)@ntlworld.com> wrote in message
news:%1WAk.60455$E41.37220@text.news.virginmedia.com...
>
> When the OECD was developing their plan to drag Bosnia and Herzegovina out 
> of the 16th Century, they decided to take the long view and use the 
> education system as part of the countering of religious intolerance.


"after initial efforts in the early IDA operations to deal with such 
ethnically sensitive issues as
a uniform curriculum, a common language for textbooks, and joint schools, 
the Bank chose
to downplay these issues, and to withdraw from textbook financing, since 
pushing harder on
these issues appeared to inflame ethnic tensions and to be 
counterproductive."
World Bank (2004) Bosnia and Herzegovina Country Assistance Evaluation.
http://www-wds.worldbank.org/external/default/WDSContentServer/WDSP/IB/2004/09/02/000012009_20040902095111/Rendered/INDEX/29824.txt

Political leaders in Scotland seem to admire and appreciate the work of 
faith schools.
"my advocacy for faith-based education extends beyond Catholic schools. I 
believe that here we are in full agreement on the tremendous role that faith 
schools can play in Scottish society. And they do so by endowing our 
children with a strong moral foundation. A positive and distinctive 
identity. A keen sense of personal responsibility and the common good. A 
strong commitment to charity - the true meaning of which is helping others."

"Our diversity is a great source of strength and richness."
First Minister Alex Salmond (February, 2008)

"Andy Morrison"  wrote in message 
news:gamimj$8sd$1@aioe.org...
>
> "dü the hüsker"  wrote in message 
> news:Egvzk.25832$KW1.10482@newsfe20.ams2...
>>
>> "Oso" <osobear(beard)@ntlworld.com> wrote in message 
>> news:gyYxk.56001$E41.17390@text.news.virginmedia.com...
>>>
>>> "Y.N.W.A"  wrote in message 
>>> news:c2dc0e12-9c36-43c4-8b81-2367847b1863@e53g2000hsa.googlegroups.com...
>>>> On 8 Sep, 12:31, Jim Mason <jim&li...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> In article <ga2uso$2e...@aioe.org>, a...@IbroxIsMyBlueHeaven.com 
>>>>> says...
>>>>>
>>>>> >http://tinyurl.com
>>>>>
>>>>> I am not in favour of separate schools myself but there is the counter
>>>>> argument that non-Catholic schools still produced people with the 
>>>>> mindset
>>>>> similar to yourself - but I suppose a 1950's style bigoted outlook is
>>>>> always going to exist with certain insecure people in any walk of 
>>>>> life. I
>>>>> just never thought I would see the day when such people were to put
>>>>> Lorraine Kelly forward as a role model to further their narrow minded
>>>>> sectarian agenda ;-)
>>>>
>>>> Bigotry is tought in the home NOT the schools
>>>
>>> Separation re-enforces differences and intolerance.
>>>
>> Only in people that are intolerant to differences.
>>
>
> Nah, only in people who are too weak willed to know their own mind.
>
>> Parents should have the freedom to choose.   A faith school hasn't been 
>> my choice but I reckon only bigots would have a problem with people who 
>> do choose to go that way.
>>
>
> Let's have one state run, non religious schooling system in Scotland & 
> let's put an end to segregation. Sod religion, let's think about kids 
> first. After that people who want choice can pay to have their kids taught 
> at faith schools, or take them to church, now there's a novel thought. In 
> fact if churches want children to have a religious education then maybe 
> the churches should finance the expense of this, after all it is to their 
> benefit.
>
>> Doesn't seem to be a problem down south.
> F**k down south, let's try a Scottish model, we should be interested in 
> "Scottish" children & the constant division of our communities on a 
> religious basis.

The people who blame RC schools for the 'constant division' are the the real 
cause of it.  Live and let live, man!!  Get on with your own life and stop 
telling others how to live theirs.

> I truly believe most parents in Scotland, given the choice, would prefer 
> integrated schooling as opposed to the present system.


But you're proposing to take away that choice.  The point is they do have a 
choice now, don't see why people should get all full of hate just because 
every parent doesn't want to send their kids to the same schooling as you.

My parents decided not to put me to a RC school but at least they had a 
choice.  I had a choice too and didn't even consider a RC school for my 
bhoys but would still defend the right for that choice to exist.  You appear 
to be suggesting parents should be forced to have only one option, the one 
you want.  Parents can choose to educate at home, would you take that right 
away as well?  Let there be Muslim, Jewish, RC, Wee Free schools, whatever. 
Choice is good and different religions/cultures is good too.

"dü the hüsker"  wrote in message 
news:V0zCk.75878$GJ4.27871@newsfe27.ams2...

> The people who blame RC schools for the 'constant division' are the the 
> real cause of it.  Live and let live, man!!  Get on with your own life and 
> stop telling others how to live theirs.
>

Bollox, tell that to the OECD who advocate united schooling to heal the 
rifts in society.

>
> But you're proposing to take away that choice.  The point is they do have 
> a choice now, don't see why people should get all full of hate just 
> because every parent doesn't want to send their kids to the same schooling 
> as you.
>

Read some of my earlier posts about isolation.  I'm not full of hate but I 
have seen what happens when hate rules a divided society and education is 
used to re-enforce that hate.

Read carefully and digest slowly.  I hope you take something away from this. 
I've seen enough misery, dead bodies, abandoned rape children (yes, women 
being raped because they were the "wrong" religion, having a kid because of 
it and abandoning it because they don't want the constant reminders of a kid 
to tell them that they were raped) and the physically and mentally mutilated 
survivors, all down to a fractured society where one of the tools that was 
used to keep the society fractured was a divided education system.

Tell the mother of the little girl I pulled out of a mass grave, no older 
than 8 years of age, who had been so brutally raped that she bled to death 
through the rips in vagina that her segregated and divided society that 
killed her was healthy.

Tell the British Army doctor who had to determine her cause of death that 
the society that could do that to a little girl was a healthy society.

Tell the shades of the men folk who were killed and their bodies stacked on 
top of the women and kids that that religiously divided community was 
healthy.  Remember that these same men were made to watch as their young 
children were killed and then wives and daughters were raped and killed 
before they were killed.  The lucky ones got a bullet in the base of their 
skull.  I saw the injuries.

Tell the men I was with, pulling the bodies out of these mass graves, that 
what they saw was the product of a healthy society, kept healthy by an 
education system divided along the lines of religion.

Tell me that the bastards who took delight in doing these atrocities, and 
filmed themselves doing these atrocities, were part of a healthy society. 
(BTW I have seen some of those films as part of war crimes investigations 
and if they can sicken me, well lets just say that if you were to watch 
these you'd lose your lunch and have nightmares for a few years.  The ghetto 
extermination scene in Schindlers List doesn't even come close to some of 
the depravity I have seen.)

I'm sorry but I've got a lot of good reasons, some recovered from graves in 
the Balkans, some whose Union Flag draped coffins I have carried and faces I 
can still see today, to say that divided education helps keep fractured 
societies fractured.

> My parents decided not to put me to a RC school but at least they had a 
> choice.  I had a choice too and didn't even consider a RC school for my 
> bhoys but would still defend the right for that choice to exist.  You 
> appear to be suggesting parents should be forced to have only one option, 
> the one you want.  Parents can choose to educate at home, would you take 
> that right away as well?  Let there be Muslim, Jewish, RC, Wee Free 
> schools, whatever. Choice is good and different religions/cultures is good 
> too.

When you have seen what I have seen, you can understand why I distrust 
education systems being managed by any religion, whether it is Muslim, 
Jewish, RC, Wee Free et al.  I also distrust homeschooling if it is 
motivated by a political or religious viewpoint with the prime example of 
this being "Prussian Blue".  Type that into a search engine and see what 
turns up about the two girls in "Prussian Blue".  You have the weekends and 
evenings to inculcate your religious "choice".

Sometimes choice is not healthy.