daily telegraph
 

Grave of Fuller Pilch, 19th century cricketer, delays £8 million concert 
hall
By Graham Tibbetts
Last Updated: 2:40AM BST 25/06/2008

Fuller Pilch, a leading 19th century cricketer who once kept England's 
best bowlers at bay, is now having a similar effect on developers.

Building work on a planned university concert hall is being delayed 
because it is earmarked for land where he is buried. For around ten 
years in the 1830s he was regarded as the finest batsman in the country 
and even pioneered a style of batting - known as the Pilch poke - to 
make use of his height. After his funeral in 1870 the all-rounder was 
buried in the churchyard of St Gregory's, Canterbury.


-- 
Robert Henderson
Blair Scandal website: http://www.geocities.com/ blairscandal/
Personal website: http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk

On Thu, 26 Jun 2008 at 14:39:47, Robert Henderson 
 wrote in uk.sport.cricket :

>daily telegraph
> 
>
>Grave of Fuller Pilch, 19th century cricketer, delays £8 million 
>concert hall
>By Graham Tibbetts
>Last Updated: 2:40AM BST 25/06/2008
>
>Fuller Pilch, a leading 19th century cricketer who once kept England's 
>best bowlers at bay, is now having a similar effect on developers.
>
>Building work on a planned university concert hall is being delayed 
>because it is earmarked for land where he is buried. For around ten 
>years in the 1830s he was regarded as the finest batsman in the country 
>and even pioneered a style of batting - known as the Pilch poke - to 
>make use of his height. After his funeral in 1870 the all-rounder was 
>buried in the churchyard of St Gregory's, Canterbury.
>
Info :

http://www.cricketarchive.co.uk/Archive/Players/32/32076/32076.html

I would guess that batting average of 18.6 would be worth 45-50 today!
-- 
Paul Hyett, Cheltenham

Paul Hyett remarked:
> On Thu, 26 Jun 2008 at 14:39:47, Robert Henderson 
>  wrote in uk.sport.cricket :
>> daily telegraph
>> Grave of Fuller Pilch, 19th century cricketer, delays £8 million 
>> concert hall
>> By Graham Tibbetts
>> Last Updated: 2:40AM BST 25/06/2008
>> Fuller Pilch, a leading 19th century cricketer who once kept England's 
>> best bowlers at bay, is now having a similar effect on developers.
>> Building work on a planned university concert hall is being delayed 
>> because it is earmarked for land where he is buried. For around ten 
>> years in the 1830s he was regarded as the finest batsman in the 
>> country and even pioneered a style of batting - known as the Pilch 
>> poke - to make use of his height. After his funeral in 1870 the 
>> all-rounder was buried in the churchyard of St Gregory's, Canterbury.
> Info :
> http://www.cricketarchive.co.uk/Archive/Players/32/32076/32076.html
> I would guess that batting average of 18.6 would be worth 45-50 today!

Pilch, whom I have duly added (perhaps prematurely) to my ever-expanding 
list of graves to visit, was arguably the best before W.G. Grace. 
Worthy, too, however, are the claims of George Parr: not for nothing did 
he inherit Gustavus's title.  Time for a debate, one feels.

-- 
Adieu,
Rodney Ulyate

In article <g40kvj$5gc$1@aioe.org>,
 Rodney Ulyate  writes:
>Pilch, whom I have duly added (perhaps prematurely) to my ever-
>expanding list of graves to visit, was arguably the best before W.G.
>Grace. Worthy, too, however, are the claims of George Parr: not for
>nothing did he inherit Gustavus's title.  Time for a debate, one feels.

Billy Beldham also has a claim.
-- 
John Hall      "George the Third
                Ought never to have occurred.
                One can only wonder
                At so grotesque a blunder."     E.C.Bentley (1875-1956)

In message <g40kvj$5gc$1@aioe.org>, Rodney Ulyate 
 writes
>Paul Hyett remarked:
>> On Thu, 26 Jun 2008 at 14:39:47, Robert Henderson 
>> wrote in uk.sport.cricket :
>>> daily telegraph
>>> Grave of Fuller Pilch, 19th century cricketer, delays £8 million 
>>>concert hall
>>> By Graham Tibbetts
>>> Last Updated: 2:40AM BST 25/06/2008
>>> Fuller Pilch, a leading 19th century cricketer who once kept 
>>>England's best bowlers at bay, is now having a similar effect on 
>>>developers.
>>> Building work on a planned university concert hall is being delayed 
>>>because it is earmarked for land where he is buried. For around ten 
>>>years in the 1830s he was regarded as the finest batsman in the 
>>>country and even pioneered a style of batting - known as the Pilch 
>>>poke - to make use of his height. After his funeral in 1870 the 
>>>all-rounder was buried in the churchyard of St Gregory's, Canterbury.
>> Info :
>> http://www.cricketarchive.co.uk/Archive/Players/32/32076/32076.html
>> I would guess that batting average of 18.6 would be worth 45-50 today!
>
>Pilch, whom I have duly added (perhaps prematurely) to my 
>ever-expanding list of graves to visit, was arguably the best before 
>W.G. Grace. Worthy, too, however, are the claims of George Parr: not 
>for nothing did he inherit Gustavus's title.  Time for a debate, one 
>feels.
>

Silver Billy Beldham

Felix

William  Ward

George Lambert

RH
-- 
Robert Henderson
Blair Scandal website: http://www.geocities.com/ blairscandal/
Personal website: http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk

In message , Paul Hyett 
<pah@invalid.invalid> writes
>On Thu, 26 Jun 2008 at 14:39:47, Robert Henderson 
> wrote in uk.sport.cricket :
>
>>daily telegraph
>> 
>>
>>Grave of Fuller Pilch, 19th century cricketer, delays £8 million 
>>concert hall
>>By Graham Tibbetts
>>Last Updated: 2:40AM BST 25/06/2008
>>
>>Fuller Pilch, a leading 19th century cricketer who once kept England's 
>>best bowlers at bay, is now having a similar effect on developers.
>>
>>Building work on a planned university concert hall is being delayed 
>>because it is earmarked for land where he is buried. For around ten 
>>years in the 1830s he was regarded as the finest batsman in the 
>>country and even pioneered a style of batting - known as the Pilch 
>>poke - to make use of his height. After his funeral in 1870 the 
>>all-rounder was buried in the churchyard of St Gregory's, Canterbury.
>>
>Info :
>
>http://www.cricketarchive.co.uk/Archive/Players/32/32076/32076.html
>
>I would guess that batting average of 18.6 would be worth 45-50 today!

The majority of specialist batsmen of his period averaged between 8 and 
12, so I think 70 or 80 would be proportionately nearer the mark. RH
-- 
Robert Henderson
Blair Scandal website: http://www.geocities.com/ blairscandal/
Personal website: http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk

"Robert Henderson"  wrote in message 
news:Nz7UJ$uh$9YIFwp6@anywhere.demon.co.uk...
> In message , Paul Hyett 
> <pah@invalid.invalid> writes
>>On Thu, 26 Jun 2008 at 14:39:47, Robert Henderson 
>> wrote in uk.sport.cricket :
>>
>>>daily telegraph
>>>
>>>Grave of Fuller Pilch, 19th century cricketer, delays £8 million concert 
>>>hall
>>>By Graham Tibbetts
>>>Last Updated: 2:40AM BST 25/06/2008
>>>
>>>Fuller Pilch, a leading 19th century cricketer who once kept England's 
>>>best bowlers at bay, is now having a similar effect on developers.
>>>
>>>Building work on a planned university concert hall is being delayed 
>>>because it is earmarked for land where he is buried. For around ten years 
>>>in the 1830s he was regarded as the finest batsman in the country and 
>>>even pioneered a style of batting - known as the Pilch poke - to make use 
>>>of his height. After his funeral in 1870 the all-rounder was buried in 
>>>the churchyard of St Gregory's, Canterbury.
>>>
>>Info :
>>
>>http://www.cricketarchive.co.uk/Archive/Players/32/32076/32076.html
>>
>>I would guess that batting average of 18.6 would be worth 45-50 today!
>
> The majority of specialist batsmen of his period averaged between 8 and 
> 12, so I think 70 or 80 would be proportionately nearer the mark. RH

I'll go for somewhere in between.

The overall average for all batsmen in FC cricket in England during his 
career (1827-54 - I'm ignoring the one FC match that he played in 1920) was 
9.88. His average exceeded that by 88%.

The overall average for the last five complete seasons was 32.74. Exceeding 
that by the same proportion would give an average of 61.71.
-- 
David North

On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 00:00:21 +0100, "David North"
 tapped the keyboard and brought
forth:


>
>The overall average for all batsmen in FC cricket in England during his 
>career (1827-54 - I'm ignoring the one FC match that he played in 1920) 

Wow. I wonder what tempted him back to FC cricket after an interval of
66 years.

Cheers,

Mike
--

On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 at 00:00:21, David North 
 wrote in uk.sport.cricket :
>>>
>>>http://www.cricketarchive.co.uk/Archive/Players/32/32076/32076.html
>>>
>>>I would guess that batting average of 18.6 would be worth 45-50 today!
>>
>> The majority of specialist batsmen of his period averaged between 8 and
>> 12, so I think 70 or 80 would be proportionately nearer the mark. RH
>
>I'll go for somewhere in between.
>
>The overall average for all batsmen in FC cricket in England during his
>career (1827-54 - I'm ignoring the one FC match that he played in 1920)

Probably wise! :)

> was
>9.88. His average exceeded that by 88%.
>
>The overall average for the last five complete seasons was 32.74. Exceeding
>that by the same proportion would give an average of 61.71.

Still seems too high - even WG only averaged 40 over his career, and 
playing conditions had presumably improved a bit by his time.
-- 
Paul Hyett, Cheltenham

In message , Paul Hyett 
<pah@invalid.invalid> writes
>Probably wise! :)
>
>> was
>>9.88. His average exceeded that by 88%.
>>
>>The overall average for the last five complete seasons was 32.74. Exceeding
>>that by the same proportion would give an average of 61.71.
>
>Still seems too high - even WG only averaged 40 over his career, and 
>playing conditions had presumably improved a bit by his time.
>--

Grace's average declined because he went on so long -  he was 60 when he 
last tunred out in FC cricket.

During the 1870s he averaged 54 when no other batsman who played any 
significant amount of cricket averaged 30. RH
-- 
Robert Henderson
Blair Scandal website: http://www.geocities.com/ blairscandal/
Personal website: http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk

In article ,
 Paul Hyett <pah@invalid.invalid> writes:
>On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 at 00:00:21, David North <dnorth@abbeymanor.fsbusin
>ess.co.uk> wrote in uk.sport.cricket :
>>
>>The overall average for the last five complete seasons was 32.74. Exceeding
>>that by the same proportion would give an average of 61.71.
>
>Still seems too high - even WG only averaged 40 over his career, and
>playing conditions had presumably improved a bit by his time.

Not by that much for the early part of his career. And Grace's overall
career average was reduced by his playing on for so long. If he had
retired after, say, 1896 - his last really productive season - it would
have been substantially higher. It would have been even higher if he had
retired around 1880, after his great decade of the 1870s, but that's not
very realistic.
-- 
John Hall      "George the Third
                Ought never to have occurred.
                One can only wonder
                At so grotesque a blunder."     E.C.Bentley (1875-1956)

"Paul Hyett" <pah@invalid.invalid> wrote in message 
news:q0XjnkJCGzZIFwkk@blueyonder.co.uk...
> On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 at 00:00:21, David North 
>  wrote in uk.sport.cricket :
>>>>
>>>>http://www.cricketarchive.co.uk/Archive/Players/32/32076/32076.html
>>>>
>>>>I would guess that batting average of 18.6 would be worth 45-50 today!
>>>
>>> The majority of specialist batsmen of his period averaged between 8 and
>>> 12, so I think 70 or 80 would be proportionately nearer the mark. RH
>>
>>I'll go for somewhere in between.
>>
>>The overall average for all batsmen in FC cricket in England during his
>>career (1827-54 - I'm ignoring the one FC match that he played in 1920)
>
> Probably wise! :)

Oops!

>> was
>>9.88. His average exceeded that by 88%.
>>
>>The overall average for the last five complete seasons was 32.74. 
>>Exceeding
>>that by the same proportion would give an average of 61.71.
>
> Still seems too high - even WG only averaged 40 over his career, and 
> playing conditions had presumably improved a bit by his time.

Despite his playing on for so long, the same calculation for Grace (up to 
1906, the last season when he played more than a single match, and including 
the 1891-92 Australian season) suggests that his average was the equivalent 
of 65.23 in 2003-07. Had he retired at the age of 50, as Pilch did, the 
figure would have been 75.51, and at age 40 it was 88.84.
-- 
David North

In article ,
 David North  writes:
>Despite his playing on for so long, the same calculation for Grace (up to
>1906, the last season when he played more than a single match, and including
>the 1891-92 Australian season) suggests that his average was the equivalent
>of 65.23 in 2003-07. Had he retired at the age of 50, as Pilch did, the
>figure would have been 75.51, and at age 40 it was 88.84.

Which is interesting in view of the often made comparison with Bradman,
whose career average was 95.14. So certainly the same ball-park,
assuming that batting conditions during Bradman's career were similar to
those in the reference period of 2003-7, which seems likely.
-- 
John Hall      "George the Third
                Ought never to have occurred.
                One can only wonder
                At so grotesque a blunder."     E.C.Bentley (1875-1956)

In message <jzGyNJCSkJbIFwVp@jhall.demon.co.uk.invalid>, John Hall 
 writes
>In article ,
> David North  writes:
>>Despite his playing on for so long, the same calculation for Grace (up to
>>1906, the last season when he played more than a single match, and including
>>the 1891-92 Australian season) suggests that his average was the equivalent
>>of 65.23 in 2003-07. Had he retired at the age of 50, as Pilch did, the
>>figure would have been 75.51, and at age 40 it was 88.84.
>
>Which is interesting in view of the often made comparison with Bradman, 
>whose career average was 95.14. So certainly the same ball-park, 
>assuming that batting conditions during Bradman's career were similar 
>to those in the reference period of 2003-7, which seems likely.

Two points:

1. Grace was a major bowler during his great period of 1868-1880 and 
remained a regular bowler until well over 50. His bowling must have 
diminished his batting average to a degree  because of simple tiredness.

2. Bradman played 90% of his cricket before he reached 30.  Had Grace 
played the same amount before he was 30 he would have averaged well over 
50 with the bat. RH
-- 
Robert Henderson
Blair Scandal website: http://www.geocities.com/ blairscandal/
Personal website: http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk

>
> 2. Bradman played 90% of his cricket before he reached 30.  Had Grace 
> played the same amount before he was 30 he would have averaged well over 
> 50 with the bat. RH
> -- 


That seems flawed logic. If Grace had retired at 30 would he have averaged 
over 50 with the bat?

On Thu, 3 Jul 2008 at 12:05:08, Robert Henderson 
 wrote in uk.sport.cricket :
>
>2. Bradman played 90% of his cricket before he reached 30.  Had Grace 
>played the same amount before he was 30 he would have averaged well 
>over 50 with the bat. RH

I wonder if Bradman's career average would have been higher or lower if 
the war years had not been lost?

Given that he'd just turned 31 when the war broke out, I would guess 
that it would have been even higher.
-- 
Paul Hyett, Cheltenham

In message <sJ3bk.16799$IK1.6674@news-server.bigpond.net.au>, Cicero 
 writes
>
>
>>
>> 2. Bradman played 90% of his cricket before he reached 30.  Had Grace 
>>played the same amount before he was 30 he would have averaged well 
>>over  50 with the bat. RH
>> --
>
>
>That seems flawed logic.


Why? RH

>If Grace had retired at 30 would he have averaged over 50 with the bat?


Yep, around 54. RH

-- 
Robert Henderson
Blair Scandal website: http://www.geocities.com/ blairscandal/
Personal website: http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk

In message <$uDGhZuZsQbIFwH4@blueyonder.co.uk>, Paul Hyett 
<pah@invalid.invalid> writes
>On Thu, 3 Jul 2008 at 12:05:08, Robert Henderson 
> wrote in uk.sport.cricket :
>>
>>2. Bradman played 90% of his cricket before he reached 30.  Had Grace 
>>played the same amount before he was 30 he would have averaged well 
>>over 50 with the bat. RH
>
>I wonder if Bradman's career average would have been higher or lower if 
>the war years had not been lost?
>
>Given that he'd just turned 31 when the war broke out, I would guess 
>that it would have been even higher.

Why? His reflexes would be slowing and physical stamina deteriorating, 
both important components of his batting because of long innings he 
played.  After 1945 He was nothing like the batsman he had been before 
1939. RH
-- 
Robert Henderson
Blair Scandal website: http://www.geocities.com/ blairscandal/
Personal website: http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk

In article <k+vOK+F$mabIFwkL@anywhere.demon.co.uk>,
 Robert Henderson  writes:
>In message <$uDGhZuZsQbIFwH4@blueyonder.co.uk>, Paul Hyett
><pah@invalid.invalid> writes
>>On Thu, 3 Jul 2008 at 12:05:08, Robert Henderson
>> wrote in uk.sport.cricket :
>>>
>>>2. Bradman played 90% of his cricket before he reached 30.  Had Grace
>>>played the same amount before he was 30 he would have averaged well
>>>over 50 with the bat. RH
>>
>>I wonder if Bradman's career average would have been higher or lower
>>if the war years had not been lost?
>>
>>Given that he'd just turned 31 when the war broke out, I would guess
>>that it would have been even higher.
>
>Why? His reflexes would be slowing and physical stamina deteriorating,
>both important components of his batting because of long innings he
>played.  After 1945 He was nothing like the batsman he had been before
>1939. RH

There was some doubt whether he would return to Test cricket in 1946-7,
as his health had not been good. But for an ageing invalid he didn't do
too badly! He averaged 97.14 in 1946-7, not too different from his
overall Test average. 1948 perhaps showed some signs of decline, in that
he averaged 72.57 and was only third in the Australian batting averages.
-- 
John Hall      "George the Third
                Ought never to have occurred.
                One can only wonder
                At so grotesque a blunder."     E.C.Bentley (1875-1956)

On Fri, 4 Jul 2008 at 05:40:31, Robert Henderson 
 wrote in uk.sport.cricket :

>In message <$uDGhZuZsQbIFwH4@blueyonder.co.uk>, Paul Hyett 
><pah@invalid.invalid> writes
>>On Thu, 3 Jul 2008 at 12:05:08, Robert Henderson 
>> wrote in uk.sport.cricket :
>>>
>>>2. Bradman played 90% of his cricket before he reached 30.  Had Grace 
>>>played the same amount before he was 30 he would have averaged well 
>>>over 50 with the bat. RH
>>
>>I wonder if Bradman's career average would have been higher or lower 
>>if the war years had not been lost?
>>
>>Given that he'd just turned 31 when the war broke out, I would guess 
>>that it would have been even higher.
>
>Why? His reflexes would be slowing and physical stamina deteriorating, 
>both important components of his batting because of long innings he 
>played.

Except that a lot of top-class batsmen have their best years in their 
early-to-mid 30's - it's not generally until their late-30's that 
greater experience can no longer compensate for deteriorating reflexes & 
stamina.

>  After 1945 He was nothing like the batsman he had been before 1939. 
>RH

I disagree - per Cricket Archive, his batting average was still around 
93 in the FC matches he played after WW2.

http://www.cricketarchive.co.uk/Archive/Players/0/492/f_Batting_by_Season.html
-- 
Paul Hyett, Cheltenham

In message <F5H55nH9VobIFwhU@jhall.demon.co.uk.invalid>, John Hall 
 writes
>>
>>Why? His reflexes would be slowing and physical stamina deteriorating,
>>both important components of his batting because of long innings he
>>played.  After 1945 He was nothing like the batsman he had been before
>>1939. RH
>
>There was some doubt whether he would return to Test cricket in 1946-7, 
>as his health had not been good. But for an ageing invalid he didn't do 
>too badly! He averaged 97.14 in 1946-7, not too different from his 
>overall Test average. 1948 perhaps showed some signs of decline, in 
>that he averaged 72.57 and was only third in the Australian batting 
>averages.


Against a very weak England bowling side and in one of the very 
strongest Oz sides. RH
-- 
Robert Henderson
Blair Scandal website: http://www.geocities.com/ blairscandal/
Personal website: http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk

In message , Paul Hyett 
<pah@invalid.invalid> writes
>> After 1945 He was nothing like the batsman he had been before 1939. 
>>RH
>
>I disagree - per Cricket Archive, his batting average was still around 
>93 in the FC matches he played after WW2.
>
>http://www.cricketarchive.co.uk/Archive/Players/0/492/f_Batting_by_Seaso
>n.html
>--

He wasn't regularly  scoring the big hundreds after the war, it was 
those which made him so devastating  in the thirties. He was also 
playing a much stronger side than those pre-war which lack decent pace 
bowling. RH

-- 
Robert Henderson
Blair Scandal website: http://www.geocities.com/ blairscandal/
Personal website: http://www.anywhere.demon.co.uk

"Robert Henderson"  wrote in message 
news:tw2sZ8uafObIFwFx@anywhere.demon.co.uk...
> In message <sJ3bk.16799$IK1.6674@news-server.bigpond.net.au>, Cicero 
>  writes
>>
>>
>>>
>>> 2. Bradman played 90% of his cricket before he reached 30.  Had Grace 
>>> played the same amount before he was 30 he would have averaged well over 
>>> 50 with the bat. RH
>>> --
>>
>>
>>That seems flawed logic.
>
>
> Why? RH
>
>>If Grace had retired at 30 would he have averaged over 50 with the bat?
>
>
> Yep, around 54. RH

He averaged 54.16 at the start of the 1878 season and 51.42 at the end of 
it, so somewhere in between when he reached 30 on July 18th. By the time he 
had played 10% of his cricket in his 30s, towards the end of the 1879 
season, his average would have been between 50 and 51.

However, Bradman reached 30 after 170 of his 234 FC matches, i.e. about 73%. 
Coincidentally, 234 is also the number of FC matches Grace played before 
reaching 30 (according to CricketArchive's list). When, early in the 1883 
season, he had played 27% of his matches after reaching 30, his average was 
about 47. Then again, Bradman played about 20% of his matches after the age 
of 37. If we adjusted the sample of Grace's matches accordingly, we would 
probably arrive at an average somewhat higher than 47, as his scores in his 
late 30s were markedly higher than those in his early 30s.
-- 
David North