10-Year-Old Charged In Father's Shooting Death

Children, Youth And Families Dept. Visited Home Multiple Times

POSTED: 12:20 pm MDT August 28, 2009
UPDATED: 7:15 pm MDT August 28, 2009

BELEN, N.M. -- Belen police have charged a 10 year-old-boy with first degree 
murder in the shooting death of his father.

Police said officers responded to a Valencia County home after getting a 
call around 7 p.m. Thursday from 10-year-old Benjamin Hilburn.


When police arrived, they found 42-year-old Bryon Hilburn shot once in the 
head. Police believe Benjamin used his own rifle to fatally shoot his 
father.

The boy reportedly told police he felt his father was disciplining him too 
harshly and too often.
The father was later pronounced dead at University of New Mexico Hospital in 
Albuquerque.

Police believe Benjamin's 6-year-old sister saw the entire event. The sister 
is now with family members, authorities said.

Investigators began searching the Belen home late Thursday after receiving a 
search warrant, and continued to investigate the scene Friday.

Anthony Gonzales lives across the street and said he never noticed any 
problems at the home.

"When I would go outside walking to get the mail, they would wave, they 
seemed happy," he said.
But Romaine Serna with the Children, Youth and Families Department said the 
agency had been called to check on the family more than seven times since 
2003, after anonymous reports of child abuse and neglect.

"We had concerns about this family. There were red flags," Serna said.

Serna said the agency interviewed family, close friends, school officials 
and doctors, but "not one of them had concerns about this household," she 
said.

Serna said CYFD didn't have enough evidence to remove the children from the 
household.
"There were no bruises. There were no marks," said Serna.

Serna also said there were a lot of weapons in this home.
"It was a family sport, they were avid shooters," she said.

New Mexico state law says only handguns are restricted for people under the 
age of 18. By law, Benjamin was allowed to own a rifle and use it with 
parental supervision.

"If an adult wants to buy a weapon for their child, as far as I know it's 
perfectly legal," said Steve Scott with the Valencia County District 
Attorney's office.

Scott can't say if the 10-year-old's gun was registered, but said that type 
of gun doesn't have to be.
Scott said this incident is not a good enough reason to change the law.
"Whether the gun was registered or not registered, how's it going to stop 
someone from using it when they want to use it?" said Scott.

Investigators have recovered the weapon they believe was used in the 
incident and are awaiting autopsy results for confirmation.

Benjamin is too young to be arrested, but is in state custody and is 
currently undergoing a mental evaluation.
Benjamin had been living with his father, who was granted custody after he 
and the boy's mother divorced.

On Sun, 30 Aug 2009 00:37:13 -0600, "¦ Reality Check© ¦"
 wrote:

>10-Year-Old Charged In Father's Shooting Death
>

Yet, the kid can't be arrested because of his age. So what good is the
charge?

On , , Sun, 30 Aug 2009 00:37:13 -0600, ### 10-Year-Old Charged In Father's
Shooting Death <= more American Gun MADNESS! ###, "¦ Reality Check© ¦"
 wrote:

>10-Year-Old Charged In Father's Shooting Death
>
>Children, Youth And Families Dept. Visited Home Multiple Times
>
>POSTED: 12:20 pm MDT August 28, 2009
>UPDATED: 7:15 pm MDT August 28, 2009
>
>BELEN, N.M. -- Belen police have charged a 10 year-old-boy with first degree 
>murder in the shooting death of his father.
>
>Police said officers responded to a Valencia County home after getting a 
>call around 7 p.m. Thursday from 10-year-old Benjamin Hilburn.
>
>
>When police arrived, they found 42-year-old Bryon Hilburn shot once in the 
>head. Police believe Benjamin used his own rifle to fatally shoot his 
>father.
>
>The boy reportedly told police he felt his father was disciplining him too 
>harshly and too often.

The father was an idiot on two counts: 
1, he allowed his ten year old son to have free access to a firearm.
2, He disciplined a child who had access to a firearm.

He obviously had no thought of the consequences of discipling a firearm packing
child.
--
"The law, in its majestic equality, forbids the rich as well as the poor 
to sleep under bridges, to beg in the streets, and to steal bread." 
Anatole France.

"¦ Reality Check© ¦"  wrote in
news:7ful0qF2m3cevU1@mid.individual.net: 

No URL = made up = BULLSHIT

-- 
"Universal" American healthcare coverage, explained:
You get the "care" they approve for you, when they get around to it, if they 
think your life is worth saving. And you'll pay for everyone's care, too, 
whether or not they've paid in, whether or not they deem you valuable enough 
to care for, 'cause they think your money is valuable enough to steal.

"Msg. Scooter"  wrote in message 
news:eapk95t4e11uf8safcf00r8l4k39m16e7o@4ax.com...
: On , , Sun, 30 Aug 2009 00:37:13 -0600, ### 10-Year-Old Charged In 
Father's
: Shooting Death <= more American Gun MADNESS! ###, "¦ Reality Check© ¦"
:  wrote:
:
: >10-Year-Old Charged In Father's Shooting Death
: >
: >Children, Youth And Families Dept. Visited Home Multiple Times
: >
: >POSTED: 12:20 pm MDT August 28, 2009
: >UPDATED: 7:15 pm MDT August 28, 2009
: >
: >BELEN, N.M. -- Belen police have charged a 10 year-old-boy with first 
degree
: >murder in the shooting death of his father.
: >
: >Police said officers responded to a Valencia County home after getting a
: >call around 7 p.m. Thursday from 10-year-old Benjamin Hilburn.
: >
: >
: >When police arrived, they found 42-year-old Bryon Hilburn shot once in 
the
: >head. Police believe Benjamin used his own rifle to fatally shoot his
: >father.
: >
: >The boy reportedly told police he felt his father was disciplining him 
too
: >harshly and too often.
:
: The father was an idiot on two counts:
: 1, he allowed his ten year old son to have free access to a firearm.
: 2, He disciplined a child who had access to a firearm.
:
: He obviously had no thought of the consequences of discipling a firearm 
packing
: child.

I would wager the gentleman lacked the skill set required for effective 
application of discipline.

"¦ Reality Check© ¦"  wrote in message 
news:7ful0qF2m3cevU1@mid.individual.net...
> 10-Year-Old Charged In Father's Shooting Death
>
> Children, Youth And Families Dept. Visited Home Multiple Times
>
> POSTED: 12:20 pm MDT August 28, 2009
> UPDATED: 7:15 pm MDT August 28, 2009
>
> BELEN, N.M. -- Belen police have charged a 10 year-old-boy with first 
> degree murder in the shooting death of his father.
>
> Police said officers responded to a Valencia County home after getting a 
> call around 7 p.m. Thursday from 10-year-old Benjamin Hilburn.

This is what happens when firearm owners don't properly keep there firearms 
secured.

Keep your firearm secured and your wont give the anti gunners any ammunition 
to attack your sport and your right to have arms.

Chris

NotMe wrote:
> "Msg. Scooter"  wrote in message 
> news:eapk95t4e11uf8safcf00r8l4k39m16e7o@4ax.com...
> : On , , Sun, 30 Aug 2009 00:37:13 -0600, ### 10-Year-Old Charged In 
> Father's
> : Shooting Death <= more American Gun MADNESS! ###, "¦ Reality Check© ¦"
> :  wrote:
> :
> : >10-Year-Old Charged In Father's Shooting Death
> : >
> : >Children, Youth And Families Dept. Visited Home Multiple Times
> : >
> : >POSTED: 12:20 pm MDT August 28, 2009
> : >UPDATED: 7:15 pm MDT August 28, 2009
> : >
> : >BELEN, N.M. -- Belen police have charged a 10 year-old-boy with first 
> degree
> : >murder in the shooting death of his father.
> : >
> : >Police said officers responded to a Valencia County home after getting a
> : >call around 7 p.m. Thursday from 10-year-old Benjamin Hilburn.
> : >
> : >
> : >When police arrived, they found 42-year-old Bryon Hilburn shot once in 
> the
> : >head. Police believe Benjamin used his own rifle to fatally shoot his
> : >father.
> : >
> : >The boy reportedly told police he felt his father was disciplining him 
> too
> : >harshly and too often.
> :
> : The father was an idiot on two counts:
> : 1, he allowed his ten year old son to have free access to a firearm.
> : 2, He disciplined a child who had access to a firearm.
> :
> : He obviously had no thought of the consequences of discipling a firearm 
> packing
> : child.
> 
> I would wager the gentleman lacked the skill set required for effective 
> application of discipline. 

I'd bet that the culture of young school kids has circulated stories of 
the former shooting where an eight year-old boy shot and killed both his 
abusive father and his father's buddy.

It's such subcultures that create much of what we see today.

Or we could just blame it on violent video games.

-- 
Cheers,
Bama Brian
Libertarian
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
George Santayana

"Bama Brian"  wrote in message 
news:h7go8u$1l5$4@news.eternal-september.org...
: NotMe wrote:
: > "Msg. Scooter"  wrote in message
: > news:eapk95t4e11uf8safcf00r8l4k39m16e7o@4ax.com...
: > : On , , Sun, 30 Aug 2009 00:37:13 -0600, ### 10-Year-Old Charged In
: > Father's
: > : Shooting Death <= more American Gun MADNESS! ###, "¦ Reality Check© ¦"
: > :  wrote:
: > :
: > : >10-Year-Old Charged In Father's Shooting Death
: > : >
: > : >Children, Youth And Families Dept. Visited Home Multiple Times
: > : >
: > : >POSTED: 12:20 pm MDT August 28, 2009
: > : >UPDATED: 7:15 pm MDT August 28, 2009
: > : >
: > : >BELEN, N.M. -- Belen police have charged a 10 year-old-boy with first
: > degree
: > : >murder in the shooting death of his father.
: > : >
: > : >Police said officers responded to a Valencia County home after 
getting a
: > : >call around 7 p.m. Thursday from 10-year-old Benjamin Hilburn.
: > : >
: > : >
: > : >When police arrived, they found 42-year-old Bryon Hilburn shot once 
in
: > the head. Police believe Benjamin used his own rifle to fatally shoot 
his
: > : >father.
: > : >
: > : >The boy reportedly told police he felt his father was disciplining 
him
: > too harshly and too often.
: > :
: > : The father was an idiot on two counts:
: > : 1, he allowed his ten year old son to have free access to a firearm.
: > : 2, He disciplined a child who had access to a firearm.
: > :
: > : He obviously had no thought of the consequences of discipling a 
firearm
: > packing child.
: >
: > I would wager the gentleman lacked the skill set required for effective
: > application of discipline.
:
: I'd bet that the culture of young school kids has circulated stories of
: the former shooting where an eight year-old boy shot and killed both his
: abusive father and his father's buddy.
:
: It's such subcultures that create much of what we see today.
:
: Or we could just blame it on violent video games.

Where did you get the information about the story circulating and presumable 
causing copycat action?

I worked as a guardian ad litem in family court (part of the foster 
program).  In my limited experience in that capacity much of what I observer 
had it's roots in lack of proper parenting skills.  The lack typically goes 
back several generations. It may go back further but the court records 
typically don't go that deep.

I would expect there were recognizable signs of problems long before the 
shooting.  In my experience there are no parenting classes (including those 
mandated by the courts) that address how to recognize the signs much less 
how to address these problems.  Often when someone does recognize there is a 
problem the 'system' has a built in inertia that makes timely/effective 
intervention very unlikely.

Unfortunately the media focus will be on the use of a gun (in my experience 
the lack of one methodology will not preclude the use of some other method 
to do the deed) and not the underlying problems.

On Mon, 31 Aug 2009 11:21:30 -0500, "NotMe"  wrote:

>
>
>"Bama Brian"  wrote in message 
>news:h7go8u$1l5$4@news.eternal-september.org...
>: NotMe wrote:
>: > "Msg. Scooter"  wrote in message
>: > news:eapk95t4e11uf8safcf00r8l4k39m16e7o@4ax.com...
>: > : On , , Sun, 30 Aug 2009 00:37:13 -0600, ### 10-Year-Old Charged In
>: > Father's
>: > : Shooting Death <= more American Gun MADNESS! ###, "¦ Reality Check© ¦"
>: > :  wrote:
>: > :
>: > : >10-Year-Old Charged In Father's Shooting Death
>: > : >
>: > : >Children, Youth And Families Dept. Visited Home Multiple Times
>: > : >
>: > : >POSTED: 12:20 pm MDT August 28, 2009
>: > : >UPDATED: 7:15 pm MDT August 28, 2009
>: > : >
>: > : >BELEN, N.M. -- Belen police have charged a 10 year-old-boy with first
>: > degree
>: > : >murder in the shooting death of his father.
>: > : >
>: > : >Police said officers responded to a Valencia County home after 
>getting a
>: > : >call around 7 p.m. Thursday from 10-year-old Benjamin Hilburn.
>: > : >
>: > : >
>: > : >When police arrived, they found 42-year-old Bryon Hilburn shot once 
>in
>: > the head. Police believe Benjamin used his own rifle to fatally shoot 
>his
>: > : >father.
>: > : >
>: > : >The boy reportedly told police he felt his father was disciplining 
>him
>: > too harshly and too often.
>: > :
>: > : The father was an idiot on two counts:
>: > : 1, he allowed his ten year old son to have free access to a firearm.
>: > : 2, He disciplined a child who had access to a firearm.
>: > :
>: > : He obviously had no thought of the consequences of discipling a 
>firearm
>: > packing child.
>: >
>: > I would wager the gentleman lacked the skill set required for effective
>: > application of discipline.
>:
>: I'd bet that the culture of young school kids has circulated stories of
>: the former shooting where an eight year-old boy shot and killed both his
>: abusive father and his father's buddy.
>:
>: It's such subcultures that create much of what we see today.
>:
>: Or we could just blame it on violent video games.
>
>Where did you get the information about the story circulating and presumable 
>causing copycat action?
>
>I worked as a guardian ad litem in family court (part of the foster 
>program).  In my limited experience in that capacity much of what I observer 
>had it's roots in lack of proper parenting skills.  The lack typically goes 
>back several generations. It may go back further but the court records 
>typically don't go that deep.
>
>I would expect there were recognizable signs of problems long before the 
>shooting.  In my experience there are no parenting classes (including those 
>mandated by the courts) that address how to recognize the signs much less 
>how to address these problems.  Often when someone does recognize there is a 
>problem the 'system' has a built in inertia that makes timely/effective 
>intervention very unlikely.
>
>Unfortunately the media focus will be on the use of a gun (in my experience 
>the lack of one methodology will not preclude the use of some other method 
>to do the deed) and not the underlying problems.

But you have to admit if the kid didn't have access to a gun this
wouldn't have happened.

"Lookout"

: >: > :
: >: > : >10-Year-Old Charged In Father's Shooting Death
: >: > : >
: >: > : >Children, Youth And Families Dept. Visited Home Multiple Times
: >: > : >
: >: > : >POSTED: 12:20 pm MDT August 28, 2009
: >: > : >UPDATED: 7:15 pm MDT August 28, 2009
: >: > : >
: >: > : >BELEN, N.M. -- Belen police have charged a 10 year-old-boy with
first degree murder in the shooting death of his father.
: >: > : >
: >: > : >Police said officers responded to a Valencia County home after
: >getting a call around 7 p.m. Thursday from 10-year-old Benjamin Hilburn.
: >: > : >
: >: > : >
: >: > : >When police arrived, they found 42-year-old Bryon Hilburn shot
once in the head. Police believe Benjamin used his own rifle to fatally
shoot his father.
: >: > : >
: >: > : >The boy reportedly told police he felt his father was disciplining
: >him too harshly and too often.
: >: > :
: >: > : The father was an idiot on two counts:
: >: > : 1, he allowed his ten year old son to have free access to a
firearm.
: >: > : 2, He disciplined a child who had access to a firearm.
: >: > :
: >: > : He obviously had no thought of the consequences of discipling a
: >firearm packing child.
: >: >
: >: > I would wager the gentleman lacked the skill set required for
effective application of discipline.
: >:
: >: I'd bet that the culture of young school kids has circulated stories of
: >: the former shooting where an eight year-old boy shot and killed both
his abusive father and his father's buddy.
: >:
: >: It's such subcultures that create much of what we see today.
: >:
: >: Or we could just blame it on violent video games.
: >
: >Where did you get the information about the story circulating and
presumable causing copycat action?
: >
: >I worked as a guardian ad litem in family court (part of the foster
: >program).  In my limited experience in that capacity much of what I
observer had it's roots in lack of proper parenting skills.  The lack
typically goes back several generations. It may go back further but the
court records typically don't go that deep.
: >
: >I would expect there were recognizable signs of problems long before the
: >shooting.  In my experience there are no parenting classes (including
those mandated by the courts) that address how to recognize the signs much
less how to address these problems.  Often when someone does recognize there
is a problem the 'system' has a built in inertia that makes timely/effective
: >intervention very unlikely.
: >
: >Unfortunately the media focus will be on the use of a gun (in my
experience the lack of one methodology will not preclude the use of some
other method to do the deed) and not the underlying problems.
:
: But you have to admit if the kid didn't have access to a gun this
: wouldn't have happened.

Dad won't be dead or dad would not have been dead by gun?

Kids that want to hurt someone will find a way.  If not a gun, then a knife,
if not a knife, then a hammer, if not a hammer then a brick/rock.

In homes were there are no fire arms, all sharps are under lock and key, no
blunt objects laying around (such as a base ball bats) kids will break
windows for the shards or smash bottles for the sharp glass.

Even in facilities that are otherwise secure (lock and key) kids will find a 
way.

On Mon, 31 Aug 2009 15:06:22 -0500, "NotMe"  wrote:

>
>"Lookout"
>
>: >: > :
>: >: > : >10-Year-Old Charged In Father's Shooting Death
>: >: > : >
>: >: > : >Children, Youth And Families Dept. Visited Home Multiple Times
>: >: > : >
>: >: > : >POSTED: 12:20 pm MDT August 28, 2009
>: >: > : >UPDATED: 7:15 pm MDT August 28, 2009
>: >: > : >
>: >: > : >BELEN, N.M. -- Belen police have charged a 10 year-old-boy with
>first degree murder in the shooting death of his father.
>: >: > : >
>: >: > : >Police said officers responded to a Valencia County home after
>: >getting a call around 7 p.m. Thursday from 10-year-old Benjamin Hilburn.
>: >: > : >
>: >: > : >
>: >: > : >When police arrived, they found 42-year-old Bryon Hilburn shot
>once in the head. Police believe Benjamin used his own rifle to fatally
>shoot his father.
>: >: > : >
>: >: > : >The boy reportedly told police he felt his father was disciplining
>: >him too harshly and too often.
>: >: > :
>: >: > : The father was an idiot on two counts:
>: >: > : 1, he allowed his ten year old son to have free access to a
>firearm.
>: >: > : 2, He disciplined a child who had access to a firearm.
>: >: > :
>: >: > : He obviously had no thought of the consequences of discipling a
>: >firearm packing child.
>: >: >
>: >: > I would wager the gentleman lacked the skill set required for
>effective application of discipline.
>: >:
>: >: I'd bet that the culture of young school kids has circulated stories of
>: >: the former shooting where an eight year-old boy shot and killed both
>his abusive father and his father's buddy.
>: >:
>: >: It's such subcultures that create much of what we see today.
>: >:
>: >: Or we could just blame it on violent video games.
>: >
>: >Where did you get the information about the story circulating and
>presumable causing copycat action?
>: >
>: >I worked as a guardian ad litem in family court (part of the foster
>: >program).  In my limited experience in that capacity much of what I
>observer had it's roots in lack of proper parenting skills.  The lack
>typically goes back several generations. It may go back further but the
>court records typically don't go that deep.
>: >
>: >I would expect there were recognizable signs of problems long before the
>: >shooting.  In my experience there are no parenting classes (including
>those mandated by the courts) that address how to recognize the signs much
>less how to address these problems.  Often when someone does recognize there
>is a problem the 'system' has a built in inertia that makes timely/effective
>: >intervention very unlikely.
>: >
>: >Unfortunately the media focus will be on the use of a gun (in my
>experience the lack of one methodology will not preclude the use of some
>other method to do the deed) and not the underlying problems.
>:
>: But you have to admit if the kid didn't have access to a gun this
>: wouldn't have happened.
>
>Dad won't be dead or dad would not have been dead by gun?
>
>Kids that want to hurt someone will find a way.  If not a gun, then a knife,
>if not a knife, then a hammer, if not a hammer then a brick/rock.
>
>In homes were there are no fire arms, all sharps are under lock and key, no
>blunt objects laying around (such as a base ball bats) kids will break
>windows for the shards or smash bottles for the sharp glass.
>
>Even in facilities that are otherwise secure (lock and key) kids will find a 
>way.

It's a lot easier for a 10 year old to kill with a gun than with a
knife or other instrument. Face it..you can't win this argument. You
can whine all you want but any reasonable person will tell you the
odds of a 10 year old killing an adult with a brick are pretty small.
SO no, the father would NOT have been dead. 

(but you'll continue to whine, won't you?)

"Lookout"
: >
: >: >: > :
: >: >: > : >10-Year-Old Charged In Father's Shooting Death
: >: >: > : >
: >: >: > : >Children, Youth And Families Dept. Visited Home Multiple Times
: >: >: > : >
: >: >: > : >POSTED: 12:20 pm MDT August 28, 2009
: >: >: > : >UPDATED: 7:15 pm MDT August 28, 2009
: >: >: > : >
: >: >: > : >BELEN, N.M. -- Belen police have charged a 10 year-old-boy with
: >first degree murder in the shooting death of his father.
: >: >: > : >
: >: >: > : >Police said officers responded to a Valencia County home after
: >: >getting a call around 7 p.m. Thursday from 10-year-old Benjamin 
Hilburn.
: >: >: > : >
: >: >: > : >
: >: >: > : >When police arrived, they found 42-year-old Bryon Hilburn shot
: >once in the head. Police believe Benjamin used his own rifle to fatally
: >shoot his father.
: >: >: > : >
: >: >: > : >The boy reportedly told police he felt his father was 
disciplining
: >: >him too harshly and too often.
: >: >: > :
: >: >: > : The father was an idiot on two counts:
: >: >: > : 1, he allowed his ten year old son to have free access to a
: >firearm.
: >: >: > : 2, He disciplined a child who had access to a firearm.
: >: >: > :
: >: >: > : He obviously had no thought of the consequences of discipling a
: >: >firearm packing child.
: >: >: >
: >: >: > I would wager the gentleman lacked the skill set required for
: >effective application of discipline.
: >: >:
: >: >: I'd bet that the culture of young school kids has circulated stories 
of
: >: >: the former shooting where an eight year-old boy shot and killed both
: >his abusive father and his father's buddy.
: >: >:
: >: >: It's such subcultures that create much of what we see today.
: >: >:
: >: >: Or we could just blame it on violent video games.
: >: >
: >: >Where did you get the information about the story circulating and
: >presumable causing copycat action?
: >: >
: >: >I worked as a guardian ad litem in family court (part of the foster
: >: >program).  In my limited experience in that capacity much of what I
: >observer had it's roots in lack of proper parenting skills.  The lack
: >typically goes back several generations. It may go back further but the
: >court records typically don't go that deep.
: >: >
: >: >I would expect there were recognizable signs of problems long before 
the
: >: >shooting.  In my experience there are no parenting classes (including
: >those mandated by the courts) that address how to recognize the signs 
much
: >less how to address these problems.  Often when someone does recognize 
there
: >is a problem the 'system' has a built in inertia that makes 
timely/effective
: >: >intervention very unlikely.
: >: >
: >: >Unfortunately the media focus will be on the use of a gun (in my
: >experience the lack of one methodology will not preclude the use of some
: >other method to do the deed) and not the underlying problems.
: >:
: >: But you have to admit if the kid didn't have access to a gun this
: >: wouldn't have happened.
: >
: >Dad won't be dead or dad would not have been dead by gun?
: >
: >Kids that want to hurt someone will find a way.  If not a gun, then a 
knife,
: >if not a knife, then a hammer, if not a hammer then a brick/rock.
: >
: >In homes were there are no fire arms, all sharps are under lock and key, 
no
: >blunt objects laying around (such as a base ball bats) kids will break
: >windows for the shards or smash bottles for the sharp glass.
: >
: >Even in facilities that are otherwise secure (lock and key) kids will 
find a
: >way.
:
: It's a lot easier for a 10 year old to kill with a gun than with a
: knife or other instrument. Face it..you can't win this argument. You
: can whine all you want but any reasonable person will tell you the
: odds of a 10 year old killing an adult with a brick are pretty small.
: SO no, the father would NOT have been dead.

You have no clue what a 10 year old can do in that regard.  Hopefully you 
will never have to learn.

If you really want to know, get in touch with the family court and volunteer 
to work in their offices (there will be a deep background check and you'll 
have to sign a confidentiality document) eventually you will learn some 
serious "stuff" that's not in the news and you can't divulge.

If you want to do something about the problem contact CPS in your area 
(different names are used) and offer to be a volunteer guardian ad litem in 
the foster program.

None of this is without stress and you'll fail by varying degrees more often 
than you succeed but when you do succeed it's well worth the effort.

If you're not up to that join the foster program as a 'friend of the family' 
again different areas have different names.  Still a background check and 
NDA but much less stress and you can still do considerable good.

Lookout wrote after his "vacation":

> It's a lot easier for a 10 year old to kill with a gun than with a
> knife or other instrument.

Cite?

> Face it..you can't win this argument.

What argument?
   YOU presented nothing that resembles a fact that YOU can back up!
You hate and fear firearms, so YOU just make stuff up.

Why was your vacation cut short?

On Mon, 31 Aug 2009 16:19:54 -0500, "NotMe"  wrote:

>
>"Lookout"
>: >
>: >: >: > :
>: >: >: > : >10-Year-Old Charged In Father's Shooting Death
>: >: >: > : >
>: >: >: > : >Children, Youth And Families Dept. Visited Home Multiple Times
>: >: >: > : >
>: >: >: > : >POSTED: 12:20 pm MDT August 28, 2009
>: >: >: > : >UPDATED: 7:15 pm MDT August 28, 2009
>: >: >: > : >
>: >: >: > : >BELEN, N.M. -- Belen police have charged a 10 year-old-boy with
>: >first degree murder in the shooting death of his father.
>: >: >: > : >
>: >: >: > : >Police said officers responded to a Valencia County home after
>: >: >getting a call around 7 p.m. Thursday from 10-year-old Benjamin 
>Hilburn.
>: >: >: > : >
>: >: >: > : >
>: >: >: > : >When police arrived, they found 42-year-old Bryon Hilburn shot
>: >once in the head. Police believe Benjamin used his own rifle to fatally
>: >shoot his father.
>: >: >: > : >
>: >: >: > : >The boy reportedly told police he felt his father was 
>disciplining
>: >: >him too harshly and too often.
>: >: >: > :
>: >: >: > : The father was an idiot on two counts:
>: >: >: > : 1, he allowed his ten year old son to have free access to a
>: >firearm.
>: >: >: > : 2, He disciplined a child who had access to a firearm.
>: >: >: > :
>: >: >: > : He obviously had no thought of the consequences of discipling a
>: >: >firearm packing child.
>: >: >: >
>: >: >: > I would wager the gentleman lacked the skill set required for
>: >effective application of discipline.
>: >: >:
>: >: >: I'd bet that the culture of young school kids has circulated stories 
>of
>: >: >: the former shooting where an eight year-old boy shot and killed both
>: >his abusive father and his father's buddy.
>: >: >:
>: >: >: It's such subcultures that create much of what we see today.
>: >: >:
>: >: >: Or we could just blame it on violent video games.
>: >: >
>: >: >Where did you get the information about the story circulating and
>: >presumable causing copycat action?
>: >: >
>: >: >I worked as a guardian ad litem in family court (part of the foster
>: >: >program).  In my limited experience in that capacity much of what I
>: >observer had it's roots in lack of proper parenting skills.  The lack
>: >typically goes back several generations. It may go back further but the
>: >court records typically don't go that deep.
>: >: >
>: >: >I would expect there were recognizable signs of problems long before 
>the
>: >: >shooting.  In my experience there are no parenting classes (including
>: >those mandated by the courts) that address how to recognize the signs 
>much
>: >less how to address these problems.  Often when someone does recognize 
>there
>: >is a problem the 'system' has a built in inertia that makes 
>timely/effective
>: >: >intervention very unlikely.
>: >: >
>: >: >Unfortunately the media focus will be on the use of a gun (in my
>: >experience the lack of one methodology will not preclude the use of some
>: >other method to do the deed) and not the underlying problems.
>: >:
>: >: But you have to admit if the kid didn't have access to a gun this
>: >: wouldn't have happened.
>: >
>: >Dad won't be dead or dad would not have been dead by gun?
>: >
>: >Kids that want to hurt someone will find a way.  If not a gun, then a 
>knife,
>: >if not a knife, then a hammer, if not a hammer then a brick/rock.
>: >
>: >In homes were there are no fire arms, all sharps are under lock and key, 
>no
>: >blunt objects laying around (such as a base ball bats) kids will break
>: >windows for the shards or smash bottles for the sharp glass.
>: >
>: >Even in facilities that are otherwise secure (lock and key) kids will 
>find a
>: >way.
>:
>: It's a lot easier for a 10 year old to kill with a gun than with a
>: knife or other instrument. Face it..you can't win this argument. You
>: can whine all you want but any reasonable person will tell you the
>: odds of a 10 year old killing an adult with a brick are pretty small.
>: SO no, the father would NOT have been dead.
>
>You have no clue what a 10 year old can do in that regard.  Hopefully you 
>will never have to learn.

Sure I do. How many times have you heard about a 10 year old killing
an adult OTHER THAN with a gun?

>If you really want to know, get in touch with the family court and volunteer 
>to work in their offices (there will be a deep background check and you'll 
>have to sign a confidentiality document) eventually you will learn some 
>serious "stuff" that's not in the news and you can't divulge.
>
>If you want to do something about the problem contact CPS in your area 
>(different names are used) and offer to be a volunteer guardian ad litem in 
>the foster program.
>
>None of this is without stress and you'll fail by varying degrees more often 
>than you succeed but when you do succeed it's well worth the effort.
>
>If you're not up to that join the foster program as a 'friend of the family' 
>again different areas have different names.  Still a background check and 
>NDA but much less stress and you can still do considerable good.
>
>
>
>

Lookout wrote:

> Sure I do. How many times have you heard about a 10 year old killing
> an adult OTHER THAN with a gun?

Lots of times. Matches seem to be the most common lighter, but I have 
also read of cars being used, along with blunt instrument trauma.

I would say I have read of cars and matches (including cigarette 
lighters) being used to kill more people than guns ever were (especially 
when we limit the data to just juveniles under the age of 10 or 12).

Steve Rothstein

"Lookout"  wrote in message
news:higo95le7hkdl4pn1phjsua37f8sbkvch7@4ax.com...
: On Mon, 31 Aug 2009 16:19:54 -0500, "NotMe"  wrote:
:
: >
: >"Lookout"
: >: >
: >: >: >: > :
: >: >: >: > : >10-Year-Old Charged In Father's Shooting Death
: >: >: >: > : >
: >: >: >: > : >Children, Youth And Families Dept. Visited Home Multiple
Times
: >: >: >: > : >
: >: >: >: > : >POSTED: 12:20 pm MDT August 28, 2009
: >: >: >: > : >UPDATED: 7:15 pm MDT August 28, 2009
: >: >: >: > : >
: >: >: >: > : >BELEN, N.M. -- Belen police have charged a 10 year-old-boy
with
: >: >first degree murder in the shooting death of his father.
: >: >: >: > : >
: >: >: >: > : >Police said officers responded to a Valencia County home
after
: >: >: >getting a call around 7 p.m. Thursday from 10-year-old Benjamin
: >Hilburn.
: >: >: >: > : >
: >: >: >: > : >
: >: >: >: > : >When police arrived, they found 42-year-old Bryon Hilburn
shot
: >: >once in the head. Police believe Benjamin used his own rifle to
fatally
: >: >shoot his father.
: >: >: >: > : >
: >: >: >: > : >The boy reportedly told police he felt his father was
: >disciplining
: >: >: >him too harshly and too often.
: >: >: >: > :
: >: >: >: > : The father was an idiot on two counts:
: >: >: >: > : 1, he allowed his ten year old son to have free access to a
: >: >firearm.
: >: >: >: > : 2, He disciplined a child who had access to a firearm.
: >: >: >: > :
: >: >: >: > : He obviously had no thought of the consequences of discipling
a
: >: >: >firearm packing child.
: >: >: >: >
: >: >: >: > I would wager the gentleman lacked the skill set required for
: >: >effective application of discipline.
: >: >: >:
: >: >: >: I'd bet that the culture of young school kids has circulated
stories
: >of
: >: >: >: the former shooting where an eight year-old boy shot and killed
both
: >: >his abusive father and his father's buddy.
: >: >: >:
: >: >: >: It's such subcultures that create much of what we see today.
: >: >: >:
: >: >: >: Or we could just blame it on violent video games.
: >: >: >
: >: >: >Where did you get the information about the story circulating and
: >: >presumable causing copycat action?
: >: >: >
: >: >: >I worked as a guardian ad litem in family court (part of the foster
: >: >: >program).  In my limited experience in that capacity much of what I
: >: >observer had it's roots in lack of proper parenting skills.  The lack
: >: >typically goes back several generations. It may go back further but
the
: >: >court records typically don't go that deep.
: >: >: >
: >: >: >I would expect there were recognizable signs of problems long
before
: >the
: >: >: >shooting.  In my experience there are no parenting classes
(including
: >: >those mandated by the courts) that address how to recognize the signs
: >much
: >: >less how to address these problems.  Often when someone does recognize
: >there
: >: >is a problem the 'system' has a built in inertia that makes
: >timely/effective
: >: >: >intervention very unlikely.
: >: >: >
: >: >: >Unfortunately the media focus will be on the use of a gun (in my
: >: >experience the lack of one methodology will not preclude the use of
some
: >: >other method to do the deed) and not the underlying problems.
: >: >:
: >: >: But you have to admit if the kid didn't have access to a gun this
: >: >: wouldn't have happened.
: >: >
: >: >Dad won't be dead or dad would not have been dead by gun?
: >: >
: >: >Kids that want to hurt someone will find a way.  If not a gun, then a
: >knife,
: >: >if not a knife, then a hammer, if not a hammer then a brick/rock.
: >: >
: >: >In homes were there are no fire arms, all sharps are under lock and
key,
: >no
: >: >blunt objects laying around (such as a base ball bats) kids will break
: >: >windows for the shards or smash bottles for the sharp glass.
: >: >
: >: >Even in facilities that are otherwise secure (lock and key) kids will
: >find a
: >: >way.
: >:
: >: It's a lot easier for a 10 year old to kill with a gun than with a
: >: knife or other instrument. Face it..you can't win this argument. You
: >: can whine all you want but any reasonable person will tell you the
: >: odds of a 10 year old killing an adult with a brick are pretty small.
: >: SO no, the father would NOT have been dead.
: >
: >You have no clue what a 10 year old can do in that regard.  Hopefully you
: >will never have to learn.
:
: Sure I do. How many times have you heard about a 10 year old killing
: an adult OTHER THAN with a gun?

Actually more than I've heard about the act being done with a gun.  Might 
add that the ratio of unsuccessful attempts is greater for other methods as 
well.

I know you'll think this a cop out but I can't provided details as the data 
in
covered under the NDA I've signed. Further since the incidents involved
someone under age and under the protection of the court the data is not
available otherwise.

On Mon, 31 Aug 2009 16:57:21 -0500, Stephan Rothstein
 wrote:

>Lookout wrote:
>
>> Sure I do. How many times have you heard about a 10 year old killing
>> an adult OTHER THAN with a gun?
>
>Lots of times. Matches seem to be the most common lighter, but I have 
>also read of cars being used, along with blunt instrument trauma.

Cite?
>
>I would say I have read of cars and matches (including cigarette 
>lighters) being used to kill more people than guns ever were (especially 
>when we limit the data to just juveniles under the age of 10 or 12).

Cite?

>Steve Rothstein

Until we see proof you're lying.

On Mon, 31 Aug 2009 17:13:05 -0500, "NotMe"  wrote:

>
>"Lookout"  wrote in message
>news:higo95le7hkdl4pn1phjsua37f8sbkvch7@4ax.com...
>: On Mon, 31 Aug 2009 16:19:54 -0500, "NotMe"  wrote:
>:
>: >
>: >"Lookout"
>: >: >
>: >: >: >: > :
>: >: >: >: > : >10-Year-Old Charged In Father's Shooting Death
>: >: >: >: > : >
>: >: >: >: > : >Children, Youth And Families Dept. Visited Home Multiple
>Times
>: >: >: >: > : >
>: >: >: >: > : >POSTED: 12:20 pm MDT August 28, 2009
>: >: >: >: > : >UPDATED: 7:15 pm MDT August 28, 2009
>: >: >: >: > : >
>: >: >: >: > : >BELEN, N.M. -- Belen police have charged a 10 year-old-boy
>with
>: >: >first degree murder in the shooting death of his father.
>: >: >: >: > : >
>: >: >: >: > : >Police said officers responded to a Valencia County home
>after
>: >: >: >getting a call around 7 p.m. Thursday from 10-year-old Benjamin
>: >Hilburn.
>: >: >: >: > : >
>: >: >: >: > : >
>: >: >: >: > : >When police arrived, they found 42-year-old Bryon Hilburn
>shot
>: >: >once in the head. Police believe Benjamin used his own rifle to
>fatally
>: >: >shoot his father.
>: >: >: >: > : >
>: >: >: >: > : >The boy reportedly told police he felt his father was
>: >disciplining
>: >: >: >him too harshly and too often.
>: >: >: >: > :
>: >: >: >: > : The father was an idiot on two counts:
>: >: >: >: > : 1, he allowed his ten year old son to have free access to a
>: >: >firearm.
>: >: >: >: > : 2, He disciplined a child who had access to a firearm.
>: >: >: >: > :
>: >: >: >: > : He obviously had no thought of the consequences of discipling
>a
>: >: >: >firearm packing child.
>: >: >: >: >
>: >: >: >: > I would wager the gentleman lacked the skill set required for
>: >: >effective application of discipline.
>: >: >: >:
>: >: >: >: I'd bet that the culture of young school kids has circulated
>stories
>: >of
>: >: >: >: the former shooting where an eight year-old boy shot and killed
>both
>: >: >his abusive father and his father's buddy.
>: >: >: >:
>: >: >: >: It's such subcultures that create much of what we see today.
>: >: >: >:
>: >: >: >: Or we could just blame it on violent video games.
>: >: >: >
>: >: >: >Where did you get the information about the story circulating and
>: >: >presumable causing copycat action?
>: >: >: >
>: >: >: >I worked as a guardian ad litem in family court (part of the foster
>: >: >: >program).  In my limited experience in that capacity much of what I
>: >: >observer had it's roots in lack of proper parenting skills.  The lack
>: >: >typically goes back several generations. It may go back further but
>the
>: >: >court records typically don't go that deep.
>: >: >: >
>: >: >: >I would expect there were recognizable signs of problems long
>before
>: >the
>: >: >: >shooting.  In my experience there are no parenting classes
>(including
>: >: >those mandated by the courts) that address how to recognize the signs
>: >much
>: >: >less how to address these problems.  Often when someone does recognize
>: >there
>: >: >is a problem the 'system' has a built in inertia that makes
>: >timely/effective
>: >: >: >intervention very unlikely.
>: >: >: >
>: >: >: >Unfortunately the media focus will be on the use of a gun (in my
>: >: >experience the lack of one methodology will not preclude the use of
>some
>: >: >other method to do the deed) and not the underlying problems.
>: >: >:
>: >: >: But you have to admit if the kid didn't have access to a gun this
>: >: >: wouldn't have happened.
>: >: >
>: >: >Dad won't be dead or dad would not have been dead by gun?
>: >: >
>: >: >Kids that want to hurt someone will find a way.  If not a gun, then a
>: >knife,
>: >: >if not a knife, then a hammer, if not a hammer then a brick/rock.
>: >: >
>: >: >In homes were there are no fire arms, all sharps are under lock and
>key,
>: >no
>: >: >blunt objects laying around (such as a base ball bats) kids will break
>: >: >windows for the shards or smash bottles for the sharp glass.
>: >: >
>: >: >Even in facilities that are otherwise secure (lock and key) kids will
>: >find a
>: >: >way.
>: >:
>: >: It's a lot easier for a 10 year old to kill with a gun than with a
>: >: knife or other instrument. Face it..you can't win this argument. You
>: >: can whine all you want but any reasonable person will tell you the
>: >: odds of a 10 year old killing an adult with a brick are pretty small.
>: >: SO no, the father would NOT have been dead.
>: >
>: >You have no clue what a 10 year old can do in that regard.  Hopefully you
>: >will never have to learn.
>:
>: Sure I do. How many times have you heard about a 10 year old killing
>: an adult OTHER THAN with a gun?
>
>Actually more than I've heard about the act being done with a gun.  Might 
>add that the ratio of unsuccessful attempts is greater for other methods as 
>well.

Cite? And we're talking death, not attempts. 

>I know you'll think this a cop out but I can't provided details as the data 
>in
>covered under the NDA I've signed. Further since the incidents involved
>someone under age and under the protection of the court the data is not
>available otherwise.
>
Unless you can prove it it's not valid.

"Lookout" : >:
: >: Sure I do. How many times have you heard about a 10 year old killing
: >: an adult OTHER THAN with a gun?
: >
: >Actually more than I've heard about the act being done with a gun.  Might
: >add that the ratio of unsuccessful attempts is greater for other methods 
as
: >well.
:
: Cite? And we're talking death, not attempts.
:
: >I know you'll think this a cop out but I can't provided details as the 
data
: >in covered under the NDA I've signed. Further since the incidents 
involved
: >someone under age and under the protection of the court the data is not
: >available otherwise.
: >
: Unless you can prove it it's not valid.

Sorry but I'm not about to risk contempt of court to satisfy your needs.

If you are really interested this is a place to start.

http://www.allacademic.com/meta/p_mla_apa_research_citation/1/8/5/5/9/p185593_index.html

Abstract:

This paper offers a content analysis of electronic news reports of parricide 
cases occurring in the United States. An extensive search of online 
databases identified 150 unique cases of children killing parents reported 
in the news media. Data pertaining to incidents, case-related variables 
(e.g., weapons used, other charges) and the processing of offenders from the 
initial charge through conviction and sentencing are examined in this 
article. To the extent possible, media accounts are used to classify cases 
according to motive and Heide's three types of parricide offenders (severely 
abused, severely mentally ill, and dangerously antisocial). The accuracy of 
online coverage of U.S. parricide incidents is assessed using two types of 
resources: officially reported national statistics on known parricidal 
incidents and the psychological/psychiatric literature on matricide and 
patricide. Comparisons of news accounts of media-reported U.S. parricide 
cases with Supplementary Homicide Report data indicated, as predicted by 
media and crime experts, that electronic media coverage of parricide cases 
focused on the more sensational, horrifying, and unusual parricides, namely 
those incidents involving multiple victims, multiple offenders, juvenile 
offenders, and female killers. Analyses of these media accounts by offender 
age found 13 significant differences between juvenile and adult parricide 
offenders. Ten of these 13 differences related to motive and Heide's 
parricide offender types and were consistent with the mental health related 
literature in this area. The limitations and directions for future research 
are discussed at length.

There are a number of related studies, you have to pay for access.

NotMe wrote:
> "Bama Brian"  wrote in message 
> news:h7go8u$1l5$4@news.eternal-september.org...
> : NotMe wrote:
> : > "Msg. Scooter"  wrote in message
> : > news:eapk95t4e11uf8safcf00r8l4k39m16e7o@4ax.com...
> : > : On , , Sun, 30 Aug 2009 00:37:13 -0600, ### 10-Year-Old Charged In
> : > Father's
> : > : Shooting Death <= more American Gun MADNESS! ###, "¦ Reality Check© ¦"
> : > :  wrote:
> : > :
> : > : >10-Year-Old Charged In Father's Shooting Death
> : > : >
> : > : >Children, Youth And Families Dept. Visited Home Multiple Times
> : > : >
> : > : >POSTED: 12:20 pm MDT August 28, 2009
> : > : >UPDATED: 7:15 pm MDT August 28, 2009
> : > : >
> : > : >BELEN, N.M. -- Belen police have charged a 10 year-old-boy with first
> : > degree
> : > : >murder in the shooting death of his father.
> : > : >
> : > : >Police said officers responded to a Valencia County home after 
> getting a
> : > : >call around 7 p.m. Thursday from 10-year-old Benjamin Hilburn.
> : > : >
> : > : >
> : > : >When police arrived, they found 42-year-old Bryon Hilburn shot once 
> in
> : > the head. Police believe Benjamin used his own rifle to fatally shoot 
> his
> : > : >father.
> : > : >
> : > : >The boy reportedly told police he felt his father was disciplining 
> him
> : > too harshly and too often.
> : > :
> : > : The father was an idiot on two counts:
> : > : 1, he allowed his ten year old son to have free access to a firearm.
> : > : 2, He disciplined a child who had access to a firearm.
> : > :
> : > : He obviously had no thought of the consequences of discipling a 
> firearm
> : > packing child.
> : >
> : > I would wager the gentleman lacked the skill set required for effective
> : > application of discipline.
> :
> : I'd bet that the culture of young school kids has circulated stories of
> : the former shooting where an eight year-old boy shot and killed both his
> : abusive father and his father's buddy.
> :
> : It's such subcultures that create much of what we see today.
> :
> : Or we could just blame it on violent video games.
> 
> Where did you get the information about the story circulating and presumable 
> causing copycat action?

It was in the papers and the other media; therefore it would have 
penetrated the subculture of children.  Would it have been a reason? 
Maybe.

Remember all the wonderful folklore you learned before the age of ten 
from your peer group?  And the vast amount of it you had to unlearn as 
well?  Where do you think it all comes from?

In any case, excessive abuse could just as easily have been a reason. 
Many children blame themselves, many run away, many start acting out at 
school and elsewhere, and a few may well destroy the only stability they 
have in the world.  Kids, being kids, typically react and don't plan.

But AFAIK, there's been no definitive evidence one way or another for 
the cause of this shooting.


> 
> I worked as a guardian ad litem in family court (part of the foster 
> program).  In my limited experience in that capacity much of what I observer 
> had it's roots in lack of proper parenting skills.  The lack typically goes 
> back several generations. It may go back further but the court records 
> typically don't go that deep.
> 
> I would expect there were recognizable signs of problems long before the 
> shooting.  In my experience there are no parenting classes (including those 
> mandated by the courts) that address how to recognize the signs much less 
> how to address these problems.  Often when someone does recognize there is a 
> problem the 'system' has a built in inertia that makes timely/effective 
> intervention very unlikely.
> 
> Unfortunately the media focus will be on the use of a gun (in my experience 
> the lack of one methodology will not preclude the use of some other method 
> to do the deed) and not the underlying problems.

Yep.  For the media, it's all about the evil thought rays radiating from 
a gun...

-- 
Cheers,
Bama Brian
Libertarian
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
George Santayana

Lookout wrote:
> On Mon, 31 Aug 2009 11:21:30 -0500, "NotMe"  wrote:
> 
>>
>> "Bama Brian"  wrote in message 
>> news:h7go8u$1l5$4@news.eternal-september.org...
>> : NotMe wrote:
>> : > "Msg. Scooter"  wrote in message
>> : > news:eapk95t4e11uf8safcf00r8l4k39m16e7o@4ax.com...
>> : > : On , , Sun, 30 Aug 2009 00:37:13 -0600, ### 10-Year-Old Charged In
>> : > Father's
>> : > : Shooting Death <= more American Gun MADNESS! ###, "¦ Reality Check© ¦"
>> : > :  wrote:
>> : > :
>> : > : >10-Year-Old Charged In Father's Shooting Death
>> : > : >
>> : > : >Children, Youth And Families Dept. Visited Home Multiple Times
>> : > : >
>> : > : >POSTED: 12:20 pm MDT August 28, 2009
>> : > : >UPDATED: 7:15 pm MDT August 28, 2009
>> : > : >
>> : > : >BELEN, N.M. -- Belen police have charged a 10 year-old-boy with first
>> : > degree
>> : > : >murder in the shooting death of his father.
>> : > : >
>> : > : >Police said officers responded to a Valencia County home after 
>> getting a
>> : > : >call around 7 p.m. Thursday from 10-year-old Benjamin Hilburn.
>> : > : >
>> : > : >
>> : > : >When police arrived, they found 42-year-old Bryon Hilburn shot once 
>> in
>> : > the head. Police believe Benjamin used his own rifle to fatally shoot 
>> his
>> : > : >father.
>> : > : >
>> : > : >The boy reportedly told police he felt his father was disciplining 
>> him
>> : > too harshly and too often.
>> : > :
>> : > : The father was an idiot on two counts:
>> : > : 1, he allowed his ten year old son to have free access to a firearm.
>> : > : 2, He disciplined a child who had access to a firearm.
>> : > :
>> : > : He obviously had no thought of the consequences of discipling a 
>> firearm
>> : > packing child.
>> : >
>> : > I would wager the gentleman lacked the skill set required for effective
>> : > application of discipline.
>> :
>> : I'd bet that the culture of young school kids has circulated stories of
>> : the former shooting where an eight year-old boy shot and killed both his
>> : abusive father and his father's buddy.
>> :
>> : It's such subcultures that create much of what we see today.
>> :
>> : Or we could just blame it on violent video games.
>>
>> Where did you get the information about the story circulating and presumable 
>> causing copycat action?
>>
>> I worked as a guardian ad litem in family court (part of the foster 
>> program).  In my limited experience in that capacity much of what I observer 
>> had it's roots in lack of proper parenting skills.  The lack typically goes 
>> back several generations. It may go back further but the court records 
>> typically don't go that deep.
>>
>> I would expect there were recognizable signs of problems long before the 
>> shooting.  In my experience there are no parenting classes (including those 
>> mandated by the courts) that address how to recognize the signs much less 
>> how to address these problems.  Often when someone does recognize there is a 
>> problem the 'system' has a built in inertia that makes timely/effective 
>> intervention very unlikely.
>>
>> Unfortunately the media focus will be on the use of a gun (in my experience 
>> the lack of one methodology will not preclude the use of some other method 
>> to do the deed) and not the underlying problems.
> 
> But you have to admit if the kid didn't have access to a gun this
> wouldn't have happened.

That's the media knee-jerk conclusion.  Kids have been known to stab, or 
to use clubs, or you name it, in reaction to unbearable treatment.

But for the media, it's all about the evil thought rays emitted by the gun.

-- 
Cheers,
Bama Brian
Libertarian
"Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it."
George Santayana

"Bama Brian"  wrote in message 
news:h7go8u$1l5$4@news.eternal-september.org...
> NotMe wrote:
>> "Msg. Scooter"  wrote in message : On , , 
>> Sun, 30 Aug 2009 00:37:13 -0600, ### 10-Year-Old Charged In Father's
>> : Shooting Death <= more American Gun MADNESS! ###, "¦ Reality Check© ¦"
>> :  wrote:
>> :
>> : >10-Year-Old Charged In Father's Shooting Death
>> : >
>> : >Children, Youth And Families Dept. Visited Home Multiple Times
>> : >
>> : >POSTED: 12:20 pm MDT August 28, 2009
>> : >UPDATED: 7:15 pm MDT August 28, 2009
>> : >
>> : >BELEN, N.M. -- Belen police have charged a 10 year-old-boy with first 
>> degree
>> : >murder in the shooting death of his father.
>> : >
>> : >Police said officers responded to a Valencia County home after getting 
>> a
>> : >call around 7 p.m. Thursday from 10-year-old Benjamin Hilburn.
>> : >
>> : >
>> : >When police arrived, they found 42-year-old Bryon Hilburn shot once in 
>> the
>> : >head. Police believe Benjamin used his own rifle to fatally shoot his
>> : >father.
>> : >
>> : >The boy reportedly told police he felt his father was disciplining him 
>> too
>> : >harshly and too often.
>> :
>> : The father was an idiot on two counts:
>> : 1, he allowed his ten year old son to have free access to a firearm.
>> : 2, He disciplined a child who had access to a firearm.
>> :
>> : He obviously had no thought of the consequences of discipling a firearm 
>> packing
>> : child.
>>
>> I would wager the gentleman lacked the skill set required for effective 
>> application of discipline.
>
> I'd bet that ...

You'd lose.

Again.

"Stephan Rothstein"  wrote in message 
news:iKidnaAhz_Wg2gHXnZ2dnUVZ_jpi4p2d@earthlink.com...
> Lookout wrote:
>
>> Sure I do. How many times have you heard about a 10 year old killing
>> an adult OTHER THAN with a gun?
>
> Lots of times. Matches seem to be the most common lighter, but I have also 
> read of cars being used, along with blunt instrument trauma.

You just can't stop lying, can you ?

Lookout wrote:
> On Mon, 31 Aug 2009 16:57:21 -0500, Stephan Rothstein
>  wrote:
> 
>> Lookout wrote:
>>
>>> Sure I do. How many times have you heard about a 10 year old killing
>>> an adult OTHER THAN with a gun?
>> Lots of times. Matches seem to be the most common lighter, but I have 
>> also read of cars being used, along with blunt instrument trauma.
> 
> Cite?

I find it hard to believe you have not seen any stories in the news 
media of kids starting house fires by playing with matches or lighters, 
including people dying in the fires. Ever hear of the burning bed 
defense? I admit the most famous case of it (and the one it is named 
for) was an adult, but children have done it also.

Steve Rothstein

On Tue, 01 Sep 2009 01:39:50 -0400, Bama Brian
 wrote:

>Lookout wrote:
>> On Mon, 31 Aug 2009 11:21:30 -0500, "NotMe"  wrote:
>> 
>>>
>>> "Bama Brian"  wrote in message 
>>> news:h7go8u$1l5$4@news.eternal-september.org...
>>> : NotMe wrote:
>>> : > "Msg. Scooter"  wrote in message
>>> : > news:eapk95t4e11uf8safcf00r8l4k39m16e7o@4ax.com...
>>> : > : On , , Sun, 30 Aug 2009 00:37:13 -0600, ### 10-Year-Old Charged In
>>> : > Father's
>>> : > : Shooting Death <= more American Gun MADNESS! ###, "¦ Reality Check© ¦"
>>> : > :  wrote:
>>> : > :
>>> : > : >10-Year-Old Charged In Father's Shooting Death
>>> : > : >
>>> : > : >Children, Youth And Families Dept. Visited Home Multiple Times
>>> : > : >
>>> : > : >POSTED: 12:20 pm MDT August 28, 2009
>>> : > : >UPDATED: 7:15 pm MDT August 28, 2009
>>> : > : >
>>> : > : >BELEN, N.M. -- Belen police have charged a 10 year-old-boy with first
>>> : > degree
>>> : > : >murder in the shooting death of his father.
>>> : > : >
>>> : > : >Police said officers responded to a Valencia County home after 
>>> getting a
>>> : > : >call around 7 p.m. Thursday from 10-year-old Benjamin Hilburn.
>>> : > : >
>>> : > : >
>>> : > : >When police arrived, they found 42-year-old Bryon Hilburn shot once 
>>> in
>>> : > the head. Police believe Benjamin used his own rifle to fatally shoot 
>>> his
>>> : > : >father.
>>> : > : >
>>> : > : >The boy reportedly told police he felt his father was disciplining 
>>> him
>>> : > too harshly and too often.
>>> : > :
>>> : > : The father was an idiot on two counts:
>>> : > : 1, he allowed his ten year old son to have free access to a firearm.
>>> : > : 2, He disciplined a child who had access to a firearm.
>>> : > :
>>> : > : He obviously had no thought of the consequences of discipling a 
>>> firearm
>>> : > packing child.
>>> : >
>>> : > I would wager the gentleman lacked the skill set required for effective
>>> : > application of discipline.
>>> :
>>> : I'd bet that the culture of young school kids has circulated stories of
>>> : the former shooting where an eight year-old boy shot and killed both his
>>> : abusive father and his father's buddy.
>>> :
>>> : It's such subcultures that create much of what we see today.
>>> :
>>> : Or we could just blame it on violent video games.
>>>
>>> Where did you get the information about the story circulating and presumable 
>>> causing copycat action?
>>>
>>> I worked as a guardian ad litem in family court (part of the foster 
>>> program).  In my limited experience in that capacity much of what I observer 
>>> had it's roots in lack of proper parenting skills.  The lack typically goes 
>>> back several generations. It may go back further but the court records 
>>> typically don't go that deep.
>>>
>>> I would expect there were recognizable signs of problems long before the 
>>> shooting.  In my experience there are no parenting classes (including those 
>>> mandated by the courts) that address how to recognize the signs much less 
>>> how to address these problems.  Often when someone does recognize there is a 
>>> problem the 'system' has a built in inertia that makes timely/effective 
>>> intervention very unlikely.
>>>
>>> Unfortunately the media focus will be on the use of a gun (in my experience 
>>> the lack of one methodology will not preclude the use of some other method 
>>> to do the deed) and not the underlying problems.
>> 
>> But you have to admit if the kid didn't have access to a gun this
>> wouldn't have happened.
>
>That's the media knee-jerk conclusion.  Kids have been known to stab, or 
>to use clubs, or you name it, in reaction to unbearable treatment.

Wrong. The gun wasn't the story at all...it was the fact that a son
killed his father. You are taking the gun part personally.

>But for the media, it's all about the evil thought rays emitted by the gun.

Nope. Not at all.

No, the majority of us will consider you a cross posting lying ass hole. 


The fact that you offer no facts other than a single case, indicates 
that you are more fully described as a lying liberal ass hole.

On Tue, 01 Sep 2009 15:01:19 -0500, "D. Staples"
 wrote:

>No, the majority of us will consider you a cross posting lying ass hole. 

Hey dickhead. ANY post I start is only in alt.politics.guns. If a post
ALREADY cross posted when it comes to me it will continue that way. I
don't alter the newsgroups list.

Now tell us why YOU cross posted this to
alt.guns,alt.true-crime,misc.legal,talk.politics.guns,uk.politics.guns.
You're accusing me of doing something and then you do it yourself and
you expect me to consider you worth while? Are you fucking nuts?

Welcome to my kill file. I'm sure you'll get along just fine with the
rest of the immature little twerps already in there.