"Scout"  wrote
> ¦ Reality Check© ¦ wrote:
>> "Scout"  wrote
>>> ¦ Reality Check© ¦ wrote:
>>>> "RD (The Sandman)" <rdsandman(spamlock)@comcast.net> wrote in message
>>>>> John Fartlington Poopnagle  wrote in
>>>>>
>>>>>> "Va. Tech Shooter's Mental Files Turn Up"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "State Probes Failed To Find Records"
>>>>>>
>>>>>> By Brigid Schulte and Rosalind S. Helderman
>>>>>> Washington Post Staff Writers
>>>>>> Thursday, July 23, 2009
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The missing mental health records of Seung Hui Cho, who was
>>>>>> responsible for the Virginia Tech massacre in 2007, mysteriously
>>>>>> resurfaced last week in the home of the former director of the
>>>>>> university's counseling center.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Virginia Gov. Timothy M. Kaine (D) announced Wednesday that the
>>>>>> records, which neither the state police nor a state investigative
>>>>>> commission had been able to locate, turned up as a result of pretrial
>>>>>> discovery in two lawsuits that have been filed by families of Cho's
>>>>>> victims.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> University officials received the records last Thursday but did not
>>>>>> inform state police until Monday and did not provide copies of the
>>>>>> records to state police until Tuesday, five days after they were
>>>>>> recovered, according to Corinne Geller, a state police spokeswoman.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Neither state officials nor the university have disclosed the 
>>>>>> contents
>>>>>> of the records, but the governor said he hopes that they will be made
>>>>>> public within days, either with permission from Cho's estate or
>>>>>> through a subpoena.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Kaine (D) did not identify the Virginia Tech employee who had the
>>>>>> records, but a memo written by a university lawyer identified him as
>>>>>> Robert Miller. Miller headed the Cook Counseling Center at the
>>>>>> university until 2006, the year before the Virginia Tech massacre, 
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> worst mass shooting by an individual in U.S. history. On April 16,
>>>>>> 2007, Cho killed 32 students and teachers and wounded many more 
>>>>>> before
>>>>>> taking his own life.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Miller took Cho's records and those of "several other students" when
>>>>>> he was transferred from the counseling center to the Human Resources
>>>>>> Department, according to the memo from the Virginia Tech lawyer, Mary
>>>>>> Beth Nash, to Kaine's office.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The records might shed light on Cho's mental state and clarify 
>>>>>> whether
>>>>>> Virginia Tech counselors complied with a court order that he receive
>>>>>> mental health treatment.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Relatives of victims, who have long argued that the university had
>>>>>> lost track of a dangerously unbalanced student, expressed new concern
>>>>>> about the school's handling of the case.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Families whose children were killed or injured in the attack said 
>>>>>> they
>>>>>> were particularly disturbed that the documents turned up during a
>>>>>> records search for two lawsuits, rather than during previous state
>>>>>> investigations. Kaine's special commission on the shootings did not
>>>>>> interview Miller, W. Gerald Massengill, the panel's chairman and a
>>>>>> retired state police superintendent, said Wednesday.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "The words that come to mind are coverup, collusion, obstruction,"
>>>>>> said Mike Pohle, whose son was killed in the shootings. "I'm 
>>>>>> spinning.
>>>>>> Who knows what could be in those records? But this is just 
>>>>>> potentially
>>>>>> more information that says: Virginia Tech, you failed to do your
>>>>>> job."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Pohle and Suzanne Grimes, whose son was wounded and still has a 
>>>>>> bullet
>>>>>> in him, said the revelation might call into question the $11 million
>>>>>> settlement that all but two families of victims signed with the
>>>>>> university. "It just infuriates me that all of a sudden now, these
>>>>>> records have magically appeared from a former director," she said.
>>>>>> "When you retire, you take the pictures off the wall. You don't take
>>>>>> records. It doesn't make sense. And it raises a whole new set of
>>>>>> questions about accountability for Virginia Tech."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Kaine promised a full criminal investigation and said he was eager to
>>>>>> learn more about the circumstances under which Cho's records were
>>>>>> taken to Miller's home.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "I'm not going to make a statement about what is lawful," he said.
>>>>>> "But the records should not have been removed from the center."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Neither Miller, who retired last year, nor his attorney responded to
>>>>>> phone and e-mail messages Wednesday.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Virginia Tech spokesman Mark Owczarski said the university questioned
>>>>>> Miller about Cho and the records shortly after the shootings. "Miller
>>>>>> was asked if he knew the whereabouts of those files, and he said he
>>>>>> did not," Owczarski said.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Geller, the state police spokeswoman, said she could not confirm
>>>>>> whether Miller had been interviewed because the investigation into 
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> 2007 massacre is still open.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "This is one of the reasons why we've kept the case open, because
>>>>>> sometimes, over time, things reappear or are discovered," Geller 
>>>>>> said.
>>>>>> "The state police are now investigating the circumstances, 
>>>>>> whereabouts
>>>>>> and the discovery of the missing documents in order to determine if,
>>>>>> in fact, a criminal act was committed."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Owczarski said the university received Cho's records "from Miller or
>>>>>> his attorney" at 5 p.m. last Thursday. Kaine was informed through the
>>>>>> state attorney general's office Monday.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Miller is named in lawsuits that two families of victims have filed
>>>>>> against the university. The suits allege "gross negligence."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Robert Hall, the Fairfax County lawyer representing the families of
>>>>>> slain students Julia Pryde and Erin Peterson, said that he had not
>>>>>> seen the records but that from what he knows of Cho's contact with 
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> therapist who saw him, it was an unexceptional encounter for her. 
>>>>>> "And
>>>>>> I expect the records to be consistent with 'ho-hum,' " Hall said.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Hall called for an investigation of Miller's departure from the
>>>>>> counseling center and of the removal of Cho's records from university
>>>>>> property. "We now have ruled out that some low-level clerical person
>>>>>> inadvertently placed them in the wrong file," Hall said. "We now find
>>>>>> instead that the very top of the Cook Counseling Center had them."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Lucinda Roy, a Virginia Tech English professor who encouraged Cho to
>>>>>> get counseling, said the late and mysterious reappearance of the
>>>>>> records adds to concern that the university has been more concerned
>>>>>> with preserving its reputation than with providing the public with a
>>>>>> thorough account of how Cho's case was handled.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Roy said she had been in frequent contact with Miller about Cho's
>>>>>> violent writings, flat affect and disturbing behavior. "He seemed to
>>>>>> be a caring individual and responsive to problems, even though I was
>>>>>> very disappointed that the counseling center could not have been more
>>>>>> proactive," she said. "It was always puzzling to me that they 
>>>>>> couldn't
>>>>>> find the records and there was not a huge push to try to find them."
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Because of Cho's odd behavior, his stalking of a fellow student and
>>>>>> his threats to kill himself, Cho was detained in a psychiatric
>>>>>> hospital in December 2005. A judge found him to be a danger to 
>>>>>> himself
>>>>>> and released him on condition that he receive mental health
>>>>>> counseling. That day, at 3 p.m., Cho showed up at the Cook Counseling
>>>>>> Center.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The long-missing records, Owczarski said, are now on file there.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [Staff writer Tom Jackman and staff researcher Meg Smith contributed
>>>>>> to this report.]
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/22/AR20090
>>>>>> 72201209.html
>>>>>>
>>>>> Gives a possible reason why NICS was never notified of Cho's status.
>>>> ALL psychologists, psychiatrists, pharmacists, rehab counselors and 
>>>> insurance companies should
>>>> be REQUIRED to REPORT ALL patients who've been identified, diagnosed 
>>>> and are being treated
>>>> for ANY MENTAL ILLNESS.
>>> They already are, when such mental illness is a legal bar to firearms 
>>> ownership/possession.
>>
>> Yet the names of MILLIONS of mentally defective, mentally ill, drug 
>> addicted and alcoholic people
>> are never sent to the NICS/BATFE database.
>
> Please indicate the statute that disallows their possession of firearms,

Check the Form 4473 you pig-ignorant imbecile.

> and then show us the statute that requires this information to be 
> reported.

That's the issue, skippy, that ALL Mentally Defective, Mentally Ill, Drug 
Addicted
or Alcoholic individuals are NOT currently reported. Millions of them.

¦ Reality Check© ¦ wrote:
(snip)

In regards to the question in the subject header, I feel the answer 
should honestly be:
"No, _YOU_ , as a known mentaly defective person, should NOT be allowed 
to own, possess, or handle a firearm."

"¦ Reality Check© ¦"  wrote in
news:7d3ehmF2a7epbU1@mid.individual.net: 

> 
> "Scout"  wrote
>> ¦ Reality Check© ¦ wrote:
>>> "Scout"  wrote
>>>> ¦ Reality Check© ¦ wrote:
>>>>> "RD (The Sandman)" <rdsandman(spamlock)@comcast.net> wrote in
>>>>> message 
>>>>>> John Fartlington Poopnagle  wrote in
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Va. Tech Shooter's Mental Files Turn Up"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "State Probes Failed To Find Records"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> By Brigid Schulte and Rosalind S. Helderman
>>>>>>> Washington Post Staff Writers
>>>>>>> Thursday, July 23, 2009
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The missing mental health records of Seung Hui Cho, who was
>>>>>>> responsible for the Virginia Tech massacre in 2007, mysteriously
>>>>>>> resurfaced last week in the home of the former director of the
>>>>>>> university's counseling center.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Virginia Gov. Timothy M. Kaine (D) announced Wednesday that the
>>>>>>> records, which neither the state police nor a state
>>>>>>> investigative commission had been able to locate, turned up as a
>>>>>>> result of pretrial discovery in two lawsuits that have been
>>>>>>> filed by families of Cho's victims.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> University officials received the records last Thursday but did
>>>>>>> not inform state police until Monday and did not provide copies
>>>>>>> of the records to state police until Tuesday, five days after
>>>>>>> they were recovered, according to Corinne Geller, a state police
>>>>>>> spokeswoman. 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Neither state officials nor the university have disclosed the 
>>>>>>> contents
>>>>>>> of the records, but the governor said he hopes that they will be
>>>>>>> made public within days, either with permission from Cho's
>>>>>>> estate or through a subpoena.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Kaine (D) did not identify the Virginia Tech employee who had
>>>>>>> the records, but a memo written by a university lawyer
>>>>>>> identified him as Robert Miller. Miller headed the Cook
>>>>>>> Counseling Center at the university until 2006, the year before
>>>>>>> the Virginia Tech massacre, the
>>>>>>> worst mass shooting by an individual in U.S. history. On April
>>>>>>> 16, 2007, Cho killed 32 students and teachers and wounded many
>>>>>>> more before
>>>>>>> taking his own life.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Miller took Cho's records and those of "several other students"
>>>>>>> when he was transferred from the counseling center to the Human
>>>>>>> Resources Department, according to the memo from the Virginia
>>>>>>> Tech lawyer, Mary Beth Nash, to Kaine's office.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The records might shed light on Cho's mental state and clarify 
>>>>>>> whether
>>>>>>> Virginia Tech counselors complied with a court order that he
>>>>>>> receive mental health treatment.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Relatives of victims, who have long argued that the university
>>>>>>> had lost track of a dangerously unbalanced student, expressed
>>>>>>> new concern about the school's handling of the case.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Families whose children were killed or injured in the attack
>>>>>>> said they
>>>>>>> were particularly disturbed that the documents turned up during
>>>>>>> a records search for two lawsuits, rather than during previous
>>>>>>> state investigations. Kaine's special commission on the
>>>>>>> shootings did not interview Miller, W. Gerald Massengill, the
>>>>>>> panel's chairman and a retired state police superintendent, said
>>>>>>> Wednesday. 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "The words that come to mind are coverup, collusion,
>>>>>>> obstruction," said Mike Pohle, whose son was killed in the
>>>>>>> shootings. "I'm spinning.
>>>>>>> Who knows what could be in those records? But this is just 
>>>>>>> potentially
>>>>>>> more information that says: Virginia Tech, you failed to do your
>>>>>>> job."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Pohle and Suzanne Grimes, whose son was wounded and still has a 
>>>>>>> bullet
>>>>>>> in him, said the revelation might call into question the $11
>>>>>>> million settlement that all but two families of victims signed
>>>>>>> with the university. "It just infuriates me that all of a sudden
>>>>>>> now, these records have magically appeared from a former
>>>>>>> director," she said. "When you retire, you take the pictures off
>>>>>>> the wall. You don't take records. It doesn't make sense. And it
>>>>>>> raises a whole new set of questions about accountability for
>>>>>>> Virginia Tech." 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Kaine promised a full criminal investigation and said he was
>>>>>>> eager to learn more about the circumstances under which Cho's
>>>>>>> records were taken to Miller's home.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "I'm not going to make a statement about what is lawful," he
>>>>>>> said. "But the records should not have been removed from the
>>>>>>> center." 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Neither Miller, who retired last year, nor his attorney
>>>>>>> responded to phone and e-mail messages Wednesday.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Virginia Tech spokesman Mark Owczarski said the university
>>>>>>> questioned Miller about Cho and the records shortly after the
>>>>>>> shootings. "Miller was asked if he knew the whereabouts of those
>>>>>>> files, and he said he did not," Owczarski said.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Geller, the state police spokeswoman, said she could not confirm
>>>>>>> whether Miller had been interviewed because the investigation
>>>>>>> into the
>>>>>>> 2007 massacre is still open.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "This is one of the reasons why we've kept the case open,
>>>>>>> because sometimes, over time, things reappear or are
>>>>>>> discovered," Geller said.
>>>>>>> "The state police are now investigating the circumstances, 
>>>>>>> whereabouts
>>>>>>> and the discovery of the missing documents in order to determine
>>>>>>> if, in fact, a criminal act was committed."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Owczarski said the university received Cho's records "from
>>>>>>> Miller or his attorney" at 5 p.m. last Thursday. Kaine was
>>>>>>> informed through the state attorney general's office Monday.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Miller is named in lawsuits that two families of victims have
>>>>>>> filed against the university. The suits allege "gross
>>>>>>> negligence." 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Robert Hall, the Fairfax County lawyer representing the families
>>>>>>> of slain students Julia Pryde and Erin Peterson, said that he
>>>>>>> had not seen the records but that from what he knows of Cho's
>>>>>>> contact with the
>>>>>>> therapist who saw him, it was an unexceptional encounter for
>>>>>>> her. "And
>>>>>>> I expect the records to be consistent with 'ho-hum,' " Hall
>>>>>>> said. 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hall called for an investigation of Miller's departure from the
>>>>>>> counseling center and of the removal of Cho's records from
>>>>>>> university property. "We now have ruled out that some low-level
>>>>>>> clerical person inadvertently placed them in the wrong file,"
>>>>>>> Hall said. "We now find instead that the very top of the Cook
>>>>>>> Counseling Center had them." 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lucinda Roy, a Virginia Tech English professor who encouraged
>>>>>>> Cho to get counseling, said the late and mysterious reappearance
>>>>>>> of the records adds to concern that the university has been more
>>>>>>> concerned with preserving its reputation than with providing the
>>>>>>> public with a thorough account of how Cho's case was handled.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Roy said she had been in frequent contact with Miller about
>>>>>>> Cho's violent writings, flat affect and disturbing behavior. "He
>>>>>>> seemed to be a caring individual and responsive to problems,
>>>>>>> even though I was very disappointed that the counseling center
>>>>>>> could not have been more proactive," she said. "It was always
>>>>>>> puzzling to me that they couldn't
>>>>>>> find the records and there was not a huge push to try to find
>>>>>>> them." 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Because of Cho's odd behavior, his stalking of a fellow student
>>>>>>> and his threats to kill himself, Cho was detained in a
>>>>>>> psychiatric hospital in December 2005. A judge found him to be a
>>>>>>> danger to himself
>>>>>>> and released him on condition that he receive mental health
>>>>>>> counseling. That day, at 3 p.m., Cho showed up at the Cook
>>>>>>> Counseling Center.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The long-missing records, Owczarski said, are now on file there.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [Staff writer Tom Jackman and staff researcher Meg Smith
>>>>>>> contributed to this report.]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/22/A
>>>>>>> R20090 72201209.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gives a possible reason why NICS was never notified of Cho's
>>>>>> status. 
>>>>> ALL psychologists, psychiatrists, pharmacists, rehab counselors
>>>>> and insurance companies should
>>>>> be REQUIRED to REPORT ALL patients who've been identified,
>>>>> diagnosed and are being treated
>>>>> for ANY MENTAL ILLNESS.
>>>> They already are, when such mental illness is a legal bar to
>>>> firearms ownership/possession.
>>>
>>> Yet the names of MILLIONS of mentally defective, mentally ill, drug 
>>> addicted and alcoholic people
>>> are never sent to the NICS/BATFE database.
>>
>> Please indicate the statute that disallows their possession of
>> firearms, 
> 
> Check the Form 4473 you pig-ignorant imbecile.

Okay.  Let's see:

12

e.  Are you an *unlawful* user of, or addicted to, marijuana, or to any 
depressant, stimulant or narcotic drug, or any other controlled 
substance?  (Notice that alcohol is NOT one the listed substances)

f.  Have you ever been *adjudicated* mentally defective (which includes 
having been *adjudicated* incompetent to manage your own affairs) or have 
you ever been committed to a mental institution?

[emphasis mine]

Do you see the terms 'unlawful' or 'adjudicated' or 'committed' in those 
questions?  Do you understand why those terms are there?

>> and then show us the statute that requires this information to be 
>> reported.
> 
> That's the issue, skippy, that ALL Mentally Defective, Mentally Ill,
> Drug Addicted
> or Alcoholic individuals are NOT currently reported. Millions of them.

And without due process, they shouldn't be.  It is not up to your 
friend's dog whether or not you lose constitutional rights.


-- 
Sleep well tonight, 

RD (The Sandman)

"No matter which side of an argument you are on, 
you will always find some people on your side 
that you wish were on the other side."

Musician Jascha Heifetz

"¦ Reality Check© ¦"  wrote in
news:7d3ehmF2a7epbU1@mid.individual.net: 

> 
> "Scout"  wrote
>> ¦ Reality Check© ¦ wrote:
>>> "Scout"  wrote
>>>> ¦ Reality Check© ¦ wrote:
>>>>> "RD (The Sandman)" <rdsandman(spamlock)@comcast.net> wrote in message
>>>>>> John Fartlington Poopnagle  wrote in
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "Va. Tech Shooter's Mental Files Turn Up"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "State Probes Failed To Find Records"
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> By Brigid Schulte and Rosalind S. Helderman
>>>>>>> Washington Post Staff Writers
>>>>>>> Thursday, July 23, 2009
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The missing mental health records of Seung Hui Cho, who was
>>>>>>> responsible for the Virginia Tech massacre in 2007, mysteriously
>>>>>>> resurfaced last week in the home of the former director of the
>>>>>>> university's counseling center.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Virginia Gov. Timothy M. Kaine (D) announced Wednesday that the
>>>>>>> records, which neither the state police nor a state investigative
>>>>>>> commission had been able to locate, turned up as a result of
>>>>>>> pretrial discovery in two lawsuits that have been filed by families
>>>>>>> of Cho's victims. 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> University officials received the records last Thursday but did not
>>>>>>> inform state police until Monday and did not provide copies of the
>>>>>>> records to state police until Tuesday, five days after they were
>>>>>>> recovered, according to Corinne Geller, a state police spokeswoman.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Neither state officials nor the university have disclosed the 
>>>>>>> contents of the records, but the governor said he hopes that they
>>>>>>> will be made public within days, either with permission from Cho's
>>>>>>> estate or through a subpoena.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Kaine (D) did not identify the Virginia Tech employee who had the
>>>>>>> records, but a memo written by a university lawyer identified him
>>>>>>> as Robert Miller. Miller headed the Cook Counseling Center at the
>>>>>>> university until 2006, the year before the Virginia Tech massacre, 
>>>>>>> the worst mass shooting by an individual in U.S. history. On April
>>>>>>> 16, 2007, Cho killed 32 students and teachers and wounded many more
>>>>>>>  before taking his own life.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Miller took Cho's records and those of "several other students"
>>>>>>> when he was transferred from the counseling center to the Human
>>>>>>> Resources Department, according to the memo from the Virginia Tech
>>>>>>> lawyer, Mary Beth Nash, to Kaine's office.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The records might shed light on Cho's mental state and clarify 
>>>>>>> whether Virginia Tech counselors complied with a court order that
>>>>>>> he receive mental health treatment.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Relatives of victims, who have long argued that the university had
>>>>>>> lost track of a dangerously unbalanced student, expressed new
>>>>>>> concern about the school's handling of the case.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Families whose children were killed or injured in the attack said 
>>>>>>> they were particularly disturbed that the documents turned up
>>>>>>> during a records search for two lawsuits, rather than during
>>>>>>> previous state investigations. Kaine's special commission on the
>>>>>>> shootings did not interview Miller, W. Gerald Massengill, the
>>>>>>> panel's chairman and a retired state police superintendent, said
>>>>>>> Wednesday. 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "The words that come to mind are coverup, collusion, obstruction,"
>>>>>>> said Mike Pohle, whose son was killed in the shootings. "I'm 
>>>>>>> spinning. Who knows what could be in those records? But this is
>>>>>>> just  potentially more information that says: Virginia Tech, you
>>>>>>> failed to do your job." 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Pohle and Suzanne Grimes, whose son was wounded and still has a 
>>>>>>> bullet in him, said the revelation might call into question the $11
>>>>>>> million settlement that all but two families of victims signed with
>>>>>>> the university. "It just infuriates me that all of a sudden now,
>>>>>>> these records have magically appeared from a former director," she
>>>>>>> said. "When you retire, you take the pictures off the wall. You
>>>>>>> don't take records. It doesn't make sense. And it raises a whole
>>>>>>> new set of questions about accountability for Virginia Tech."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Kaine promised a full criminal investigation and said he was eager
>>>>>>> to learn more about the circumstances under which Cho's records
>>>>>>> were taken to Miller's home.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "I'm not going to make a statement about what is lawful," he said.
>>>>>>> "But the records should not have been removed from the center."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Neither Miller, who retired last year, nor his attorney responded
>>>>>>> to phone and e-mail messages Wednesday.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Virginia Tech spokesman Mark Owczarski said the university
>>>>>>> questioned Miller about Cho and the records shortly after the
>>>>>>> shootings. "Miller was asked if he knew the whereabouts of those
>>>>>>> files, and he said he did not," Owczarski said.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Geller, the state police spokeswoman, said she could not confirm
>>>>>>> whether Miller had been interviewed because the investigation into 
>>>>>>> the 2007 massacre is still open.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> "This is one of the reasons why we've kept the case open, because
>>>>>>> sometimes, over time, things reappear or are discovered," Geller 
>>>>>>> said. "The state police are now investigating the circumstances, 
>>>>>>> whereabouts and the discovery of the missing documents in order to
>>>>>>> determine if, in fact, a criminal act was committed."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Owczarski said the university received Cho's records "from Miller
>>>>>>> or his attorney" at 5 p.m. last Thursday. Kaine was informed
>>>>>>> through the state attorney general's office Monday.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Miller is named in lawsuits that two families of victims have filed
>>>>>>> against the university. The suits allege "gross negligence."
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Robert Hall, the Fairfax County lawyer representing the families of
>>>>>>> slain students Julia Pryde and Erin Peterson, said that he had not
>>>>>>> seen the records but that from what he knows of Cho's contact with 
>>>>>>> the therapist who saw him, it was an unexceptional encounter for
>>>>>>> her. "And
>>>>>>> I expect the records to be consistent with 'ho-hum,' " Hall said.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Hall called for an investigation of Miller's departure from the
>>>>>>> counseling center and of the removal of Cho's records from
>>>>>>> university property. "We now have ruled out that some low-level
>>>>>>> clerical person inadvertently placed them in the wrong file," Hall
>>>>>>> said. "We now find instead that the very top of the Cook Counseling
>>>>>>> Center had them." 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Lucinda Roy, a Virginia Tech English professor who encouraged Cho
>>>>>>> to get counseling, said the late and mysterious reappearance of the
>>>>>>> records adds to concern that the university has been more concerned
>>>>>>> with preserving its reputation than with providing the public with
>>>>>>> a thorough account of how Cho's case was handled.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Roy said she had been in frequent contact with Miller about Cho's
>>>>>>> violent writings, flat affect and disturbing behavior. "He seemed
>>>>>>> to be a caring individual and responsive to problems, even though I
>>>>>>> was very disappointed that the counseling center could not have
>>>>>>> been more proactive," she said. "It was always puzzling to me that
>>>>>>> they  couldn't find the records and there was not a huge push to
>>>>>>> try to find them." 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Because of Cho's odd behavior, his stalking of a fellow student and
>>>>>>> his threats to kill himself, Cho was detained in a psychiatric
>>>>>>> hospital in December 2005. A judge found him to be a danger to 
>>>>>>> himself and released him on condition that he receive mental health
>>>>>>> counseling. That day, at 3 p.m., Cho showed up at the Cook
>>>>>>> Counseling Center.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> The long-missing records, Owczarski said, are now on file there.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> [Staff writer Tom Jackman and staff researcher Meg Smith
>>>>>>> contributed to this report.]
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/22/AR20
>>>>>>> 090 72201209.html 
>>>>>>>
>>>>>> Gives a possible reason why NICS was never notified of Cho's status.
>>>>> ALL psychologists, psychiatrists, pharmacists, rehab counselors and 
>>>>> insurance companies should
>>>>> be REQUIRED to REPORT ALL patients who've been identified, diagnosed 
>>>>> and are being treated
>>>>> for ANY MENTAL ILLNESS.
>>>> They already are, when such mental illness is a legal bar to firearms 
>>>> ownership/possession. 
>>>
>>> Yet the names of MILLIONS of mentally defective, mentally ill, drug 
>>> addicted and alcoholic people
>>> are never sent to the NICS/BATFE database.
>>
>> Please indicate the statute that disallows their possession of firearms,
> 
> Check the Form 4473 you pig-ignorant imbecile.
> 
>> and then show us the statute that requires this information to be 
>> reported. 
> 
> That's the issue, skippy, that ALL Mentally Defective, Mentally Ill, Drug
> Addicted
> or Alcoholic individuals are NOT currently reported. Millions of them.
> 
> 
> 
> 

Who is going to report you, you hate filled ankle biter?

-- 
Always remember:

Bull Connor was a Democrat!

On Sun, 26 Jul 2009 13:25:43 -0400, AndyWest 
wrote:

>¦ Reality Check© ¦ wrote:
>(snip)
>
>In regards to the question in the subject header, I feel the answer 
>should honestly be:
>"No, _YOU_ , as a known mentaly defective person, should NOT be allowed 
>to own, possess, or handle a firearm."
>
Or a car, knives, baseball bats, pens and/or pencils either.
-- 
"Everything in excess! To enjoy the flavor of life, take big bites.
Moderation is for monks."

"AndyWest"  wrote in message 
news:4a6c9192$0$22551$607ed4bc@cv.net...
>¦ Reality Check© ¦ wrote:
> (snip)
>
> In regards to the question in the subject header, I feel the answer should 
> honestly be:
>
> "No, a known mentaly defective person, should NOT be allowed to own, 
> possess, or handle a firearm."

Noted.

"RD (The Sandman)" <rdsandman(spamlock)@comcast.net> wrote
> "¦ Reality Check© ¦"  wrote in
>> "Scout"  wrote
>>> ¦ Reality Check© ¦ wrote:
>>>> "Scout"  wrote
>>>>> ¦ Reality Check© ¦ wrote:
>>>>>> "RD (The Sandman)" <rdsandman(spamlock)@comcast.net> wrote in
>>>>>> message
>>>>>>> John Fartlington Poopnagle  wrote in
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "Va. Tech Shooter's Mental Files Turn Up"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "State Probes Failed To Find Records"
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> By Brigid Schulte and Rosalind S. Helderman
>>>>>>>> Washington Post Staff Writers
>>>>>>>> Thursday, July 23, 2009
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The missing mental health records of Seung Hui Cho, who was
>>>>>>>> responsible for the Virginia Tech massacre in 2007, mysteriously
>>>>>>>> resurfaced last week in the home of the former director of the
>>>>>>>> university's counseling center.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Virginia Gov. Timothy M. Kaine (D) announced Wednesday that the
>>>>>>>> records, which neither the state police nor a state
>>>>>>>> investigative commission had been able to locate, turned up as a
>>>>>>>> result of pretrial discovery in two lawsuits that have been
>>>>>>>> filed by families of Cho's victims.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> University officials received the records last Thursday but did
>>>>>>>> not inform state police until Monday and did not provide copies
>>>>>>>> of the records to state police until Tuesday, five days after
>>>>>>>> they were recovered, according to Corinne Geller, a state police
>>>>>>>> spokeswoman.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Neither state officials nor the university have disclosed the
>>>>>>>> contents
>>>>>>>> of the records, but the governor said he hopes that they will be
>>>>>>>> made public within days, either with permission from Cho's
>>>>>>>> estate or through a subpoena.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Kaine (D) did not identify the Virginia Tech employee who had
>>>>>>>> the records, but a memo written by a university lawyer
>>>>>>>> identified him as Robert Miller. Miller headed the Cook
>>>>>>>> Counseling Center at the university until 2006, the year before
>>>>>>>> the Virginia Tech massacre, the
>>>>>>>> worst mass shooting by an individual in U.S. history. On April
>>>>>>>> 16, 2007, Cho killed 32 students and teachers and wounded many
>>>>>>>> more before
>>>>>>>> taking his own life.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Miller took Cho's records and those of "several other students"
>>>>>>>> when he was transferred from the counseling center to the Human
>>>>>>>> Resources Department, according to the memo from the Virginia
>>>>>>>> Tech lawyer, Mary Beth Nash, to Kaine's office.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The records might shed light on Cho's mental state and clarify
>>>>>>>> whether
>>>>>>>> Virginia Tech counselors complied with a court order that he
>>>>>>>> receive mental health treatment.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Relatives of victims, who have long argued that the university
>>>>>>>> had lost track of a dangerously unbalanced student, expressed
>>>>>>>> new concern about the school's handling of the case.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Families whose children were killed or injured in the attack
>>>>>>>> said they
>>>>>>>> were particularly disturbed that the documents turned up during
>>>>>>>> a records search for two lawsuits, rather than during previous
>>>>>>>> state investigations. Kaine's special commission on the
>>>>>>>> shootings did not interview Miller, W. Gerald Massengill, the
>>>>>>>> panel's chairman and a retired state police superintendent, said
>>>>>>>> Wednesday.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "The words that come to mind are coverup, collusion,
>>>>>>>> obstruction," said Mike Pohle, whose son was killed in the
>>>>>>>> shootings. "I'm spinning.
>>>>>>>> Who knows what could be in those records? But this is just
>>>>>>>> potentially
>>>>>>>> more information that says: Virginia Tech, you failed to do your
>>>>>>>> job."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Pohle and Suzanne Grimes, whose son was wounded and still has a
>>>>>>>> bullet
>>>>>>>> in him, said the revelation might call into question the $11
>>>>>>>> million settlement that all but two families of victims signed
>>>>>>>> with the university. "It just infuriates me that all of a sudden
>>>>>>>> now, these records have magically appeared from a former
>>>>>>>> director," she said. "When you retire, you take the pictures off
>>>>>>>> the wall. You don't take records. It doesn't make sense. And it
>>>>>>>> raises a whole new set of questions about accountability for
>>>>>>>> Virginia Tech."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Kaine promised a full criminal investigation and said he was
>>>>>>>> eager to learn more about the circumstances under which Cho's
>>>>>>>> records were taken to Miller's home.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "I'm not going to make a statement about what is lawful," he
>>>>>>>> said. "But the records should not have been removed from the
>>>>>>>> center."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Neither Miller, who retired last year, nor his attorney
>>>>>>>> responded to phone and e-mail messages Wednesday.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Virginia Tech spokesman Mark Owczarski said the university
>>>>>>>> questioned Miller about Cho and the records shortly after the
>>>>>>>> shootings. "Miller was asked if he knew the whereabouts of those
>>>>>>>> files, and he said he did not," Owczarski said.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Geller, the state police spokeswoman, said she could not confirm
>>>>>>>> whether Miller had been interviewed because the investigation
>>>>>>>> into the
>>>>>>>> 2007 massacre is still open.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> "This is one of the reasons why we've kept the case open,
>>>>>>>> because sometimes, over time, things reappear or are
>>>>>>>> discovered," Geller said.
>>>>>>>> "The state police are now investigating the circumstances,
>>>>>>>> whereabouts
>>>>>>>> and the discovery of the missing documents in order to determine
>>>>>>>> if, in fact, a criminal act was committed."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Owczarski said the university received Cho's records "from
>>>>>>>> Miller or his attorney" at 5 p.m. last Thursday. Kaine was
>>>>>>>> informed through the state attorney general's office Monday.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Miller is named in lawsuits that two families of victims have
>>>>>>>> filed against the university. The suits allege "gross
>>>>>>>> negligence."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Robert Hall, the Fairfax County lawyer representing the families
>>>>>>>> of slain students Julia Pryde and Erin Peterson, said that he
>>>>>>>> had not seen the records but that from what he knows of Cho's
>>>>>>>> contact with the
>>>>>>>> therapist who saw him, it was an unexceptional encounter for
>>>>>>>> her. "And
>>>>>>>> I expect the records to be consistent with 'ho-hum,' " Hall
>>>>>>>> said.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Hall called for an investigation of Miller's departure from the
>>>>>>>> counseling center and of the removal of Cho's records from
>>>>>>>> university property. "We now have ruled out that some low-level
>>>>>>>> clerical person inadvertently placed them in the wrong file,"
>>>>>>>> Hall said. "We now find instead that the very top of the Cook
>>>>>>>> Counseling Center had them."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Lucinda Roy, a Virginia Tech English professor who encouraged
>>>>>>>> Cho to get counseling, said the late and mysterious reappearance
>>>>>>>> of the records adds to concern that the university has been more
>>>>>>>> concerned with preserving its reputation than with providing the
>>>>>>>> public with a thorough account of how Cho's case was handled.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Roy said she had been in frequent contact with Miller about
>>>>>>>> Cho's violent writings, flat affect and disturbing behavior. "He
>>>>>>>> seemed to be a caring individual and responsive to problems,
>>>>>>>> even though I was very disappointed that the counseling center
>>>>>>>> could not have been more proactive," she said. "It was always
>>>>>>>> puzzling to me that they couldn't
>>>>>>>> find the records and there was not a huge push to try to find
>>>>>>>> them."
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Because of Cho's odd behavior, his stalking of a fellow student
>>>>>>>> and his threats to kill himself, Cho was detained in a
>>>>>>>> psychiatric hospital in December 2005. A judge found him to be a
>>>>>>>> danger to himself
>>>>>>>> and released him on condition that he receive mental health
>>>>>>>> counseling. That day, at 3 p.m., Cho showed up at the Cook
>>>>>>>> Counseling Center.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> The long-missing records, Owczarski said, are now on file there.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> [Staff writer Tom Jackman and staff researcher Meg Smith
>>>>>>>> contributed to this report.]
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2009/07/22/A
>>>>>>>> R20090 72201209.html
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Gives a possible reason why NICS was never notified of Cho's
>>>>>>> status.
>>>>>> ALL psychologists, psychiatrists, pharmacists, rehab counselors
>>>>>> and insurance companies should
>>>>>> be REQUIRED to REPORT ALL patients who've been identified,
>>>>>> diagnosed and are being treated
>>>>>> for ANY MENTAL ILLNESS.
>>>>> They already are, when such mental illness is a legal bar to
>>>>> firearms ownership/possession.
>>>>
>>>> Yet the names of MILLIONS of mentally defective, mentally ill, drug
>>>> addicted and alcoholic people
>>>> are never sent to the NICS/BATFE database.
>>>
>>> Please indicate the statute that disallows their possession of
>>> firearms,
>>
>> Check the Form 4473 you pig-ignorant imbecile.
>
> Okay.  Let's see:
>
> 12
>
> e.  Are you an *unlawful* user of, or addicted to, marijuana, or to any
> depressant, stimulant or narcotic drug, or any other controlled
> substance?  (Notice that alcohol is NOT one the listed substances)

Really? ETOH isn't a controlled substance?

LOL!



>
> f.  Have you ever been *adjudicated* mentally defective (which includes
> having been *adjudicated* incompetent to manage your own affairs)

Which is the crux of the current discussion. You support the DENIAL
of RTKBA for the small portion of mentall defectives who have been 
"adjudicated",
but you aparently don't mind that MILLIONS of undisputed mental defectives 
who
haven't been "adjudicated" are armed with firearms and explosives.


> or have  you ever been committed to a mental institution?

Define mental institution? An institution that treats ANY mental illness ?



>
> [emphasis mine]
>
> Do you see the terms 'unlawful' or 'adjudicated' or 'committed' in those
> questions?  Do you understand why those terms are there?

Tell us why you think MILLIONS of undisputed "mental defectives"
should be allowed to possess firearms and explosives without limitation.

>
>>> and then show us the statute that requires this information to be
>>> reported.
>>
>> That's the issue, skippy, that ALL Mentally Defective, Mentally Ill,
>> Drug Addicted
>> or Alcoholic individuals are NOT currently reported. Millions of them.
>
> And without due process, they shouldn't be.  It is not up to your
> friend's dog whether or not you lose constitutional rights.

Due process is available to anyone denied their RTKBA. Due process
was followed when the BATFE implemented the various restrictions on the 
RTKBA.

What part don't you comprehend?

¦ Reality Check© ¦ wrote like a fool:
> "AndyWest"  wrote in message 
> news:4a6c9192$0$22551$607ed4bc@cv.net...
> 
>>¦ Reality Check© ¦ wrote:
>>(snip)
>>
>>In regards to the question in the subject header, I feel the answer should 
>>honestly be:
>>
>>"No! YOU, a known, mentaly defective person, should NOT be allowed to own, 
>>possess, or handle a firearm."

> Noted.

That's why I corrected what I wrote, and what you deleted.