Hi,

Does anyone know the law regarding access of delivers and canvassers to such 
flats?

The particular instance of which I am thinking is a block of private flats, 
with their own front doors and letter boxes, where a warden refused 
admission to one of our deliverers.

If anyone can refer to a particular law on this that would be useful.

Michael

Michael Hopkins wrote:

> Hi,
> Does anyone know the law regarding access of delivers and canvassers to 
> such flats?
> The particular instance of which I am thinking is a block of private 
> flats, with their own front doors and letter boxes, where a warden 
> refused admission to one of our deliverers.
> If anyone can refer to a particular law on this that would be useful.
> Michael

I'd be pretty sure that private individuals representing private 
organisations cannot legally insist on access to private buildings.

You can always post those leaflets/newsletters second-class or something.

In article ,
   JNugent  wrote:
> Michael Hopkins wrote:

> > Hi,
> > Does anyone know the law regarding access of delivers and canvassers
> > to such flats?
> > The particular instance of which I am thinking is a block of private 
> > flats, with their own front doors and letter boxes, where a warden 
> > refused admission to one of our deliverers.
> > If anyone can refer to a particular law on this that would be useful.
> > Michael

> I'd be pretty sure that private individuals representing private 
> organisations cannot legally insist on access to private buildings.

Yes.  I have encountered that in one place (run by a Labour-supporting
warden!)

> You can always post those leaflets/newsletters second-class or
> something.

That's what we do with leaflets/newsletters.  Of course, it doesn't solve
the canvassing issue that Michael also touched upon, but at least it's
something.

-- 
John M Ward - see http://www.horsted.john-ward.org.uk
--> In favour of returning all local decisions to local people!

"John M Ward"  wrote in message 
news:50304ea57ajohn@acornusers.org...
> In article ,
>   JNugent  wrote:
>> Michael Hopkins wrote:
>
>> > Hi,
>> > Does anyone know the law regarding access of delivers and canvassers
>> > to such flats?
>> > The particular instance of which I am thinking is a block of private
>> > flats, with their own front doors and letter boxes, where a warden
>> > refused admission to one of our deliverers.
>> > If anyone can refer to a particular law on this that would be useful.
>> > Michael
>
>> I'd be pretty sure that private individuals representing private
>> organisations cannot legally insist on access to private buildings.
>
> Yes.  I have encountered that in one place (run by a Labour-supporting
> warden!)
>
>> You can always post those leaflets/newsletters second-class or
>> something.
>
> That's what we do with leaflets/newsletters.  Of course, it doesn't solve
> the canvassing issue that Michael also touched upon, but at least it's
> something.

I accept the point about private access tec.  However there is also the 
point that the warden is censoring who is allowed to access other people's 
private front doors.  Isn't that infringing the rights of the residents? 
If, on a road, someone has locked gates and asks for post to left in a box, 
or no post, etc. fair enough they are asking you not to come to their door. 
However on an ordinary street most residents take the view that by having a 
letterbox they are inviting people to put put things through it.  In the 
warden controlled flats the warden censors who is and isn't allowed to do 
that, and isn't that infringing the rights of the residents?  (For what it's 
worth I suspect that very few wardens show any partiality and it isn't a 
party matter in most cases).  Isn't also the case the older generation have 
a higher proportion of people who are interested in political issues and 
take the trouble to vote?

In article <qvynl.12148$2O4.11297@newsfe03.iad>,
   Michael Hopkins 
wrote:

> "John M Ward"  wrote in message 
> news:50304ea57ajohn@acornusers.org...
> > In article ,
> >   JNugent  wrote:
> >> Michael Hopkins wrote:
> >
> >> > Hi,
> >> > Does anyone know the law regarding access of delivers
> >> > and canvassers to such flats?
> >> > The particular instance of which I am thinking is a block of
> >> > private flats, with their own front doors and letter boxes, where
> >> > a warden refused admission to one of our deliverers.
> >> > If anyone can refer to a particular law on this that would be
> >> > useful.
> >> > Michael
> >
> >> I'd be pretty sure that private individuals representing private
> >> organisations cannot legally insist on access to private buildings.
> >
> > Yes.  I have encountered that in one place (run by a Labour-supporting
> > warden!)
> >
> >> You can always post those leaflets/newsletters second-class or
> >> something.
> >
> > That's what we do with leaflets/newsletters.  Of course, it doesn't
> > solve the canvassing issue that Michael also touched upon, but at
> > least it's something.

> I accept the point about private access tec.  However there is also the
> point that the warden is censoring who is allowed to access other
> people's private front doors.  Isn't that infringing the rights of the
> residents?

Yes it is -- but it's on private property so there seems to be nothing
that can be done about this.  In fact, there's a bit of a problem at
another of our (several!) such places in this ward.  I send our Nick along
to charm the warden there  :-)

> If, on a road, someone has locked gates and asks for post to left in a
> box, or no post, etc. fair enough they are asking you not to come to
> their door. However on an ordinary street most residents take the view
> that by having a letterbox they are inviting people to put put things
> through it.

Indeed, it is a legal requirement to have a postbox or equivalent at all
residential properties.

> In the warden controlled flats the warden censors who is and isn't
> allowed to do that, and isn't that infringing the rights of the
> residents?

I'd agree on principle, but don't have a universal answer, only lateral
thinking on the ground that can sometimes overcome a specific problem.

> (For what it's worth I suspect that very few wardens show any
> partiality and it isn't a party matter in most cases).

Yes; my experience tallies with this.  Most of our places cause no problem
in this regard.

> Isn't also the case the older generation have a higher proportion of
> people who are interested in political issues and take the trouble to
> vote? 

That tends to be the case.  I think they generally treat it as a duty to
vote, realising probably more than younger generations just what our
predecessors went through in order to secure the right to vote.

-- 
John M Ward - see http://www.horsted.john-ward.org.uk
--> In favour of returning all local decisions to local people!

John M Ward wrote:

> Indeed, it is a legal requirement to have a postbox or equivalent at all
> residential properties.

But is there any requirement on how accessible it must be? If somebody wants 
to put anything in my letterbox they must first penetrate the complex gate 
(which only has an intercom that goes to the site office) then enter my 
individual building (this one does have an intercom, however you can't open 
the outside door by pushing a button in the the flat). The postman has keys 
allowing him access to the building but other deliverers don't - a real pain 
with courier firms, some of whom resort to leaving notes stuck to the 
outside gate!

In article ,
   Tim Roll-Pickering  wrote:
> John M Ward wrote:

> > Indeed, it is a legal requirement to have a postbox or equivalent at
> > all residential properties.

> But is there any requirement on how accessible it must be?

I don't know the exact rule(s) in such a case; but the general requirement
is that there has to be an accessible postal receptacle somewhere, even if
it's a communal one.  This is common in my ward, with the majority of such
properties having just one outside letterbox.

> If somebody wants to put anything in my letterbox they must first
> penetrate the complex gate (which only has an intercom that goes to the
> site office) then enter my individual building (this one does have an
> intercom, however you can't open the outside door by pushing a button
> in the the flat).

I've never encountered a set-up like that: I'm not sure it's even legal.

> The postman has keys allowing him access to the building but other
> deliverers don't - a real pain with courier firms, some of whom resort
> to leaving notes stuck to the outside gate! 

Usually such places are, in practice, accessible during the early morning
because of daily tradesmen, and we time our visits accordingly. 
Otherwise, we're probably stumped.

-- 
John M Ward - see http://www.horsted.john-ward.org.uk
--> In favour of returning all local decisions to local people!

John M Ward wrote:

>> If somebody wants to put anything in my letterbox they must first
>> penetrate the complex gate (which only has an intercom that goes to the
>> site office) then enter my individual building (this one does have an
>> intercom, however you can't open the outside door by pushing a button
>> in the the flat).

> I've never encountered a set-up like that: I'm not sure it's even legal.

Hmm - which bit might not be?

>> The postman has keys allowing him access to the building but other
>> deliverers don't - a real pain with courier firms, some of whom resort
>> to leaving notes stuck to the outside gate!

> Usually such places are, in practice, accessible during the early morning
> because of daily tradesmen, and we time our visits accordingly.
> Otherwise, we're probably stumped.

Our only tradesman is the postman, with specially issued keys. No milk or 
paper deliveries - indeed I've never had either the council's or the old 
London Mayor's "delivered free to all households" papers come here in all 
the years I've been here - and all cleaning and maintenance staff are based 
inside.

Being a strong Labour ward in Newham (although it borders the "RESPECT" 
ward) it doesn't get that much campaigning although both Conservative and 
"RESPECT" leaflets have made it to letter boxes.

In article ,
   Tim Roll-Pickering  wrote:
> John M Ward wrote:

> >> If somebody wants to put anything in my letterbox they must first
> >> penetrate the complex gate (which only has an intercom that goes to
> >> the site office) then enter my individual building (this one does
> >> have an intercom, however you can't open the outside door by pushing
> >> a button in the the flat).

> > I've never encountered a set-up like that: I'm not sure it's even
> > legal.

> Hmm - which bit might not be?

The bit: "I'm not sure"  :-)  I think the keys arrangement is a practical
work-around, but it's quite possible that -- unless you have a communal
postbox outside the gate -- it doesn't comply strictly with the postal
requirements.  I am no expert, I am just mentioning what I was told years
ago when I began leafleting (in Epsom and Ewell, back in 1988).

> > Usually such places are, in practice, accessible during the early
> > morning because of daily tradesmen, and we time our visits
> > accordingly. Otherwise, we're probably stumped.

> Our only tradesman is the postman, with specially issued keys. No milk
> or paper deliveries - indeed I've never had either the council's or
> the old London Mayor's "delivered free to all households" papers come
> here in all the years I've been here - and all cleaning and
> maintenance staff are based inside.

I can see why there aren't any other tradesmen...

> Being a strong Labour ward in Newham (although it borders the
> "RESPECT" ward) it doesn't get that much campaigning although both
> Conservative and "RESPECT" leaflets have made it to letter boxes. 

They probably do what I mentioned above: arrive when the postman tends to
come, perhaps watching him approach the place and then moving in...

-- 
John M Ward - see http://www.horsted.john-ward.org.uk
--> In favour of returning all local decisions to local people!

John M Ward wrote:

>> Being a strong Labour ward in Newham (although it borders the
>> "RESPECT" ward) it doesn't get that much campaigning although both
>> Conservative and "RESPECT" leaflets have made it to letter boxes.

> They probably do what I mentioned above: arrive when the postman tends to
> come, perhaps watching him approach the place and then moving in...

No, the timings are different. What I think they do is slip in when the gate 
is opened by one of many residents (or even better when a car is going 
through) and then follow a resident into the building. Or a resident who is 
a party member lets them in/does it themselves.