http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/programmes/kill_it/

Do you ever find yourself indulging in a meat feast and wondering how
the animal made its way to your plate? 

Kill It, Cook It, Eat It returns to uncover the facts about how meat
is prepared in the UK for our dining table - and this time, we focus
on the slaughter of young animals.

Veal, milk-fed lambs, kid goats and suckling pigs are slaughtered
regularly in UK abattoirs to feed a small but growing appetite for
younger, more succulent meat. As a nation of animal lovers, the public
may not want to acknowledge that animals are taken from their mothers
while they're still suckling, but it does take place. 

The series demonstrates the whole process – how baby animals are
reared, inspected and killed – and shows what the professionals think
about the slaughter process. 

Each programme examines the reactions and emotions of an invited group
of guests including meat lovers, farmers, vegetarians and
restaurateurs. They watch the young animals being butchered and
cooked, before deciding whether to taste what they've seen
slaughtered. 

In Kill It, Cook It, Eat It, presenter Julia Bradbury (Watchdog,
Wainwright's Walks), leading vet Peter Jinman, master butchers John
Mettrick and Andrew Sharpe, and chef Kate Moore bring together two
moments the public have separated – the death of young animals and the
consumption of their meat. 

The programme asks how these animals are raised, where they come from,
and how they're killed and gutted. Should taste take priority over the
welfare of the animal? And, ultimately, how young is too young when it
comes to eating baby animals? 








--

My greatest speech to the peasants
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=em7LWuP0T7Q

pam the SPAMMERS send an email to enquires@urfreesim.co.uk



England / Angelic Upstarts 

The red in the flag is the blood that was spilt
In the way that your forefathers tell
And never a country has been so great
The stories Britannia could tell 

I never want to live my life
Away from the golden shores
There's never a country in the world
With the scent of an English rose 

England oh England a country so great
A land that's so fair and so true
There'll never be any colours like
The red the white and the blue 

Whenever you go to a far off land
There's something goes with you
The pride and the joy and the love that comes
For your mother of red white and blue 

You could never be born under a flag that's like
The one of the Union Jack
St.Georges spirit has never died
It all keeps coming back

On Tue, 08 Jan 2008 00:22:54 +0000, Adenoid Hynkel            .
 wrote:

>http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/programmes/kill_it/
>
>Do you ever find yourself indulging in a meat feast and wondering how
>the animal made its way to your plate? 
>
>Kill It, Cook It, Eat It returns to uncover the facts about how meat
>is prepared in the UK for our dining table - and this time, we focus
>on the slaughter of young animals.
>
>Veal, milk-fed lambs, kid goats and suckling pigs are slaughtered
>regularly in UK abattoirs to feed a small but growing appetite for
>younger, more succulent meat. As a nation of animal lovers, the public
>may not want to acknowledge that animals are taken from their mothers
>while they're still suckling, but it does take place. 
>
>The series demonstrates the whole process – how baby animals are
>reared, inspected and killed – and shows what the professionals think
>about the slaughter process. 
>
>Each programme examines the reactions and emotions of an invited group
>of guests including meat lovers, farmers, vegetarians and
>restaurateurs. They watch the young animals being butchered and
>cooked, before deciding whether to taste what they've seen
>slaughtered. 
>
>In Kill It, Cook It, Eat It, presenter Julia Bradbury (Watchdog,
>Wainwright's Walks), leading vet Peter Jinman, master butchers John
>Mettrick and Andrew Sharpe, and chef Kate Moore bring together two
>moments the public have separated – the death of young animals and the
>consumption of their meat. 
>
>The programme asks how these animals are raised, where they come from,
>and how they're killed and gutted. Should taste take priority over the
>welfare of the animal? And, ultimately, how young is too young when it
>comes to eating baby animals? 

The pig industry has gone coy all of a sudden!!

http://www.npa-uk.org.uk/
BBC 3 tonight at 10.30

The first series of "Kill it, cook it, eat it" was not damaging for
the livestock industry because (a) it showed good abattoir practice,
and (b) most members of the public who took part in the programme
accepted that if one is to eat meat, at some point animals must be
killed.

However the second series appears to be seeking greater impact.
Younger animals will be killed. NPA advised producers not to provide
animals for the programme, on the grounds that suckling pigs are
hardly a typical part of the pigmeat supply chain in this country.

The series is being shown on BBC Three this week, at 10.30pm. Monday,
suckling pigs; Tuesday, kid goats; Wednesday, veal calves; Thursday,
lambs; Friday, compilation.









--

My greatest speech to the peasants
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=em7LWuP0T7Q

pam the SPAMMERS send an email to enquires@urfreesim.co.uk



England / Angelic Upstarts 

The red in the flag is the blood that was spilt
In the way that your forefathers tell
And never a country has been so great
The stories Britannia could tell 

I never want to live my life
Away from the golden shores
There's never a country in the world
With the scent of an English rose 

England oh England a country so great
A land that's so fair and so true
There'll never be any colours like
The red the white and the blue 

Whenever you go to a far off land
There's something goes with you
The pride and the joy and the love that comes
For your mother of red white and blue 

You could never be born under a flag that's like
The one of the Union Jack
St.Georges spirit has never died
It all keeps coming back

On Tue, 08 Jan 2008 00:22:54 +0000, Adenoid Hynkel            .
 wrote:

>http://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/programmes/kill_it/
>
>Do you ever find yourself indulging in a meat feast and wondering how
>the animal made its way to your plate? 
>
>Kill It, Cook It, Eat It returns to uncover the facts about how meat
>is prepared in the UK for our dining table - and this time, we focus
>on the slaughter of young animals.
>
>Veal, milk-fed lambs, kid goats and suckling pigs are slaughtered
>regularly in UK abattoirs to feed a small but growing appetite for
>younger, more succulent meat. As a nation of animal lovers, the public
>may not want to acknowledge that animals are taken from their mothers
>while they're still suckling, but it does take place. 
>
>The series demonstrates the whole process – how baby animals are
>reared, inspected and killed – and shows what the professionals think
>about the slaughter process. 
>
>Each programme examines the reactions and emotions of an invited group
>of guests including meat lovers, farmers, vegetarians and
>restaurateurs. They watch the young animals being butchered and
>cooked, before deciding whether to taste what they've seen
>slaughtered. 
>
>In Kill It, Cook It, Eat It, presenter Julia Bradbury (Watchdog,
>Wainwright's Walks), leading vet Peter Jinman, master butchers John
>Mettrick and Andrew Sharpe, and chef Kate Moore bring together two
>moments the public have separated – the death of young animals and the
>consumption of their meat. 
>
>The programme asks how these animals are raised, where they come from,
>and how they're killed and gutted. Should taste take priority over the
>welfare of the animal? And, ultimately, how young is too young when it
>comes to eating baby animals? 


Pig meat in decline!

Slaughterings fall
http://www.npa-uk.org.uk/
Pig slaughterings are falling across Europe, as these figures ('000
head) for November show:

Germany down from 4,502.4 in October to 3,817.1. 
Denmark down from 1,933.1 to 1,633.8. 
Ireland down from 230.8 to 200.4. 
France down from 2,102.0 to 2,082.8. 
United Kingdom down from 959.9 to 794.9. 
Belgium down from 965.7 to 901.7. 


Something to hide Mr Piggie?
http://www.npa-uk.org.uk/
Be aware

Pig producers should be aware that a television production company is
researching a documentary idea that could involve a presenter living
with pigs. If the programme comes off, it may highlight what the
programme-makers consider to be cruel treatment of pigs and what they
consider should be best practice.









--

My greatest speech to the peasants
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=em7LWuP0T7Q

pam the SPAMMERS send an email to enquires@urfreesim.co.uk



England / Angelic Upstarts 

The red in the flag is the blood that was spilt
In the way that your forefathers tell
And never a country has been so great
The stories Britannia could tell 

I never want to live my life
Away from the golden shores
There's never a country in the world
With the scent of an English rose 

England oh England a country so great
A land that's so fair and so true
There'll never be any colours like
The red the white and the blue 

Whenever you go to a far off land
There's something goes with you
The pride and the joy and the love that comes
For your mother of red white and blue 

You could never be born under a flag that's like
The one of the Union Jack
St.Georges spirit has never died
It all keeps coming back

Humans are omnivores.  I, for one, do not intend to quibble with the
designer (omnipotent or darwinian)

I suggest you get over it, and find something else to worry about.

On Tue, 8 Jan 2008 03:10:03 -0800 (PST), robertharvey@my-deja.com
wrote:

>Humans are omnivores.  I, for one, do not intend to quibble with the
>designer (omnipotent or darwinian)

Presumably don't care where it comes from either?

http://www.factoryfarming.org.uk/

What is Factory Farming? 

Intensive, industrialised, factory - they’re all terms that describe
modern farming methods. Intensive because as many animals as possible
are crammed together in the smallest possible space. Industrialised
because feeding, watering and dung clearing are often performed
automatically. Factory because the philosophy of mass production is
what lies behind it all.

Can you conceive the mentality that looked at restlessly strutting
creatures such as chickens - descendants of jungle fowl - and decided
to cram them five to a wire cage no bigger than a microwave oven? Then
they piled thousands of cages one on top of another. And forced the
hens - through selection, lighting and feed - to produce an egg almost
every day of their short lives, when their ancestors lay just 20 a
year. So many that their bones break involuntarily from osteoporosis,
the calcium leached to provide egg shells. That’s what happened and
that’s how 80 per cent of all eggs are still obtained. The sad little
by-products are day-old male chicks, too scrawny for meat and
incapable of laying eggs - so they’re cruelly gassed with CO2 or
crushed to death. Forty million of them every year.

The fate of those chickens selected to provide meat is little better.
As many as 50,000 or more are crammed into a single shed to stand in
their own excreta for the six weeks of their obscenely short lives.
Huge, waddling babies, forced to grow unnaturally fast - so fast that
their hearts can’t cope and many die. Legs give way and break under
their ballooning weight. Despite the ordeal, these perversions of
nature account for almost all chicken meat eaten. Ducks, turkeys and
Guinea fowl all endure similar conditions - and shortly it will be
geese, too.

What sane person would look at highly-intelligent animals such as pigs
and force them into crowded, concrete cells? No bedding, no
enrichment, filth and squalor and absolutely nothing to do - unable to
fulfil even their most basic natural instincts. And as a bonus, cut
off their tails and crush their teeth without anaesthetic in an
attempt to control the resulting aggression.

A special barbarity is reserved for sows - female breeding pigs. Until
recently they spent their entire lives encased in metal - narrow
crates little wider then their bodies, ensuring they could never turn
around or lie down properly. In Britain, continual campaigning has led
to the abolition of these stalls while the sows are pregnant. They
have been substituted with the same barren, concrete filth that meat
pigs endure. But for 70 days a year, they are still confined in metal
farrowing crates while they deliver and suckle their annual 2.5
litters. No wonder they go mad, gnawing at their bars in the bleak and
desolate despair of mental collapse.

 
These are the obvious forms of factory farming but there are other,
less obvious examples. Despite their seemingly free-range existence,
dairy cows are probably the hardest worked of all farmed animals. They
are one of the few to endure pregnancy and milking both at the same
time. And what milking - up to 10 times the amount they need to
produce to suckle a calf. Look at dairy cows in the field and you will
see hip bones that protrude from their skin like coat hangers through
a flimsy shirt. Watch them as they walk and you will see distended
udders. They will limp and lurch along with difficulty. Hardly
surprising as one third at any one time suffer foot and leg problems
and excruciating laminitis. Another third experience the equally
painful mastitis. Animals that can live into their mid twenties are
exhausted after two or three pregnancies and are slaughtered -
equivalent in age to a teenage girl.

And what of their offspring? All are removed from their mother at two
or three days old, despite her bellows of despair and their own
confusion and fear. Female calves will mostly be kept to replenish the
herd while the teetering little male calves are shot in the head -
another by-product of another cruel industry. Until BSE (mad cow
disease) they were despatched into the barbaric solitary confinement
of Continental veal crates, and purposely diseased with anaemia so
their flesh would appear white on the dinner plates of uncaring and
unconscionable gluttons.

 
Sheep, too, are touted as free range animals - and so they are. But
that doesn’t tell the full story. Tricked into ovulating at the wrong
time and tricked into producing too many babies - increasingly
triplets - it is a struggle to survive, often on over-grazed, marginal
land. Instead of giving birth in Spring, ewes often deliver their
young as early as December. The result is cold, starvation, disease
and death, which claims 20 per cent of all new born lambs - four
million every year.

And when they’re marketed, each little creature which has known only
the quiet of the countryside will be transported from market place to
holding pen, from livestock dealer to exporter - an average of eight
times each. Many will be subjected to days of road transport - often
as far as Greece - crammed with others in unventilated, unheated
transporters. Many will die - whole consignments have died - of
stress, thirst and heat stroke.

And so it goes on. Beef cattle are no exception and it was unnaturally
being fed the remains of their own kind that has given the world this
terrifying and incurable outbreak of vCJD - the human form of BSE.

This whole cycle of exploitation took wing after the end of the World
War II - or, to be more precise, after 1948 when antibiotics were
first introduced. And it is these which are the key to this unnatural,
cruel and ultimately dangerous abuse of animals. What began with greed
is likely to end in catastrophe. There has been enough writing on the
wall in the form of warnings to graffiti the Great Wall of China. But
still the dosing goes on - often indiscriminately, on a daily basis,
frequently incorporated in food and water.

A whole string of antibiotics and other drugs are administered for
different purposes. Some are used to prevent disease, some are used to
try and cure diseases and some, believe it or not, are used simply to
make animals put on weight more quickly. The onslaught is relentless
and the outcome is not even in doubt any more.

In evolutionary terms, the time from 1948 to today is no more than a
twinkling of light. And yet the results are stark. One by one we have
lost the ability to use specific antibiotics because the bacteria they
are targeted at have developed resistance - the drugs no longer work.
Worse than this, the mutated microbes have the ability to pass on
their resistance to unrelated organisms in an example of microbial
co-operation that no one understands. In severe food poisoning cases,
where a human’s blood becomes infected, there is now only one
antibiotic of last resort - and even a derivative of this is still
being fed to animals. As for the rest - they simply no longer work.

We are staring into the abyss - not my words but those of an official
enquiry into drug-resistant bacteria. As enquiry tumbles on the heels
of enquiry, the farming industry refuses to respond, pleading poverty,
and the government wrings its hands as only governments know how.
Another enquiry will doubtless be launched to add to the many already
held. Then a working party will be formed. Then trials will be held
and then the government will change and we will go back to square one.

Already we have virulent new forms of Salmonella, E.coli and
Campylobacter which have turned food poisoning into an epidemic. And
we have superbugs, which are wreaking havoc in our hospitals. We don’t
know the figures for the UK but in the US, between 20,000 and 60,000
people are dying every year from uncontrollable, deadly infections
they contract while in hospital.

Despite the empty promises of genetic engineering, we are looking at a
bleak future. If things continue as they are, we may return to the
deadly infectious epidemics of the middle ages and where invasive
surgery will be impossible. Even having a tooth out could become life
threatening.

New animal diseases are developing apace and we have no idea if any of
these will devastate humans in a similar way to BSE. We are on the
brink and we have to force farmers and legislators into action.
Factory farming has to end, we have stop this unhealthy and obsessive
promotion of animal protein, we have to begin treating animals with
respect and consideration - or pay the price.

Animal health and human health are both in the balance but so is the
health of the planet. Livestock production is at the heart of most of
the world’s environmental catastrophes - rainforest destruction,
global warming, water depletion, spreading desserts, loss of soil
fertility, soil erosion, ozone depletion and the collapse of the
world’s oceans. Almost everything that humans currently do is
unsustainable. And while we send in our pennies and pounds to
Ethiopian and other famine appeals, no one makes the case that the
west’s obsession with meat plays a direct role in starving the world’s
poorest people. Meat is a killer in every sense of the word.

The most conclusive and effective decision anyone can take to stop
this descent into insanity is to give up meat and become vegetarian or
vegan. In the meantime, a huge step forward can be made by outlawing
factory farming. It isn’t just rhetoric - we really do have to end
factory farming before it ends us!

TONY WARDLE
Associate Director, Viva!
 

Viva! Vegetarians International Voice for Animals
8 York Court, Wilder Street, Bristol, BS2 8QH, UK
T: 0117 944 1000 F: 0117 924 4646
www.viva.org.uk










--

My greatest speech to the peasants
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=em7LWuP0T7Q

pam the SPAMMERS send an email to enquires@urfreesim.co.uk



England / Angelic Upstarts 

The red in the flag is the blood that was spilt
In the way that your forefathers tell
And never a country has been so great
The stories Britannia could tell 

I never want to live my life
Away from the golden shores
There's never a country in the world
With the scent of an English rose 

England oh England a country so great
A land that's so fair and so true
There'll never be any colours like
The red the white and the blue 

Whenever you go to a far off land
There's something goes with you
The pride and the joy and the love that comes
For your mother of red white and blue 

You could never be born under a flag that's like
The one of the Union Jack
St.Georges spirit has never died
It all keeps coming back

> On Tue, 8 Jan 2008 03:10:03 -0800 (PST), robertharvey@my-deja.com
> wrote:
>
> >Humans are omnivores.

'One of the most famous anatomists, Baron Cuvier, wrote:
"The natural food of man, judging from his structure, appears to
consist principally of the fruits, roots, and other succulent parts
of vegetables. His hands afford every facility for gathering them;
his short but moderately strong jaws on the other hand, and his
canines being equal only in length to the other teeth, together with
his tuberculated molars on the other, would scarcely permit him
either to masticate herbage, or to devour flesh, were these
condiments not previously prepared by cooking."
..
'Linneaus, who introduced binomial nomenclature (naming plants
and animals according to their physical structure) wrote: "Man's
structure, external and internal, compared with that of other
animals shows that fruit and succulent vegetables constitute his
natural food."

Dr. F.A. Pouchet, 19th century author of The Universe, wrote
in his Pluralite' de la Race Humaine: "It has been truly said that
Man is frugivorous. All the details of his intestinal canal, and
above all his dentition, prove it in the most decided manner."

Professor William Lawrence, FRS, in his lectures delivered at
the Royal College of Surgeons in 1822, said:

"The teeth of man have not the slightest resemblance to those of
the carnivorous animals, excepting that their enamel is confined
to the external surface. He possesses, indeed, teeth called canine;
but they do not exceed the level of others, and are obviously
unsuited to the purposes which the corresponding teeth execute
in carnivorous animals. Thus we find, whether we consider the
teeth and jaws, or the immediate instruments of digestion, that the
human structure closely resembles that of the apes, all of whom,
in their natural state, are completely herbivorous (frugivorous)."

Professor Charles Bell, FRS, wrote in his 1829 work, Anatomy,
Physiology, and Diseases of the Teeth: "It is, I think, not going
too far to say that every fact connected with the human
organisation goes to prove that man was originally formed a
frugivorous animal. This opinion is derived principally from the
formation of his teeth and digestive organs, as well as from the
character of his skin and the general structure of his limbs."

Professor Richard Owen, FRS, in his elaborate 1845 work,
Odontography, wrote: "The apes and monkeys, whom man
nearly resembles in his dentition, derive their staple food from
fruits, grain, the kernels of nuts, and other forms in which the
most sapid and nutritious tissues of the vegetable kingdom are
elaborated; and the close resemblance between the
quadrumanous and the human dentition shows that man was,
from the beginning, adapted to eat the fruit of the tree of the
garden."
..
"Man, by nature, was never made to be a carnivorous animal,"
wrote John Ray, FRS, "nor is he armed for prey or rapine, with
jagged and pointed teeth, and claws to rend and tear; but with
gentle hands to gather fruit and vegetables, and with teeth to
chew and eat them."

According to Dr. Spenser Thompson, "No physiologist would
dispute with those who maintain that men ought to have a
vegetable diet."

Dr. S.M. Whitaker, MRCS, LRCP, in Man's Natural Food: An
Enquiry, concluded, "Comparative anatomy and physiology
indicate fresh fruits and vegetables as the main food of man."

More recently, William S. Collens and Gerald B. Dobkens
concluded: "Examination of the dental structure of modern man
reveals that he possesses all the features of a strictly herbivorous
animal. While designed to subsist on vegetarian foods, he has
perverted his dietary habits to accept food of the carnivore. It
is postulated that man cannot handle carnivorous foods like the
carnivore. Herein may lie the basis for the high incidence of
arteriosclerotic disease."
..'
http://www.all-creatures.org/murti/tsnhod-14.html

'Furthermore, William C. Roberts, M.D., Professor and Director
of the Baylor University Medical Center, and Editor in Chief of
the American Journal of Cardiology, stated in this peer-reviewed
journal,

Thus, although we think we are one and we act as if we are one,
human beings are not natural carnivores. When we kill animals to
eat them, they end up killing us because their flesh, which contains
cholesterol and saturated fat, was never intended for human beings,
who are natural herbivores.[11]
..
 [11] Roberts, William C. American Journal of Cardiology.
Volume 66, P. 896. 1 Oct, 1990 .
..'
http://animalliberationfront.com/Philosophy/Morality/examination_of_property.htm

'There appears to be no threshold of plant-food enrichment or
minimization of fat intake beyond which further disease prevention
does not occur. These findings suggest that even small intakes of
foods of animal origin are associated with significant increases in
plasma cholesterol concentrations, which are associated, in turn,
with significant increases in chronic degenerative disease mortality
rates. - Campbell TC, Junshi C. Diet and chronic degenerative
diseases: perspectives from China. Am J Clin Nutr 1994 May;59
(5 Suppl):1153S-1161S.'

On Tue, 8 Jan 2008 03:10:03 -0800 (PST), robertharvey@my-deja.com wrote:

> Humans are omnivores.  I, for one, do not intend to quibble with the
> designer (omnipotent or darwinian)
> 
> I suggest you get over it, and find something else to worry about.

Quite, and I'm a vegetarian. If it came down to me or a fluffy bunny, 
sorry bunny you're going to die, assuming I can catch it...

-- 
Cheers                                              new5pam@howhill.com
Dave.                                             pam is missing e-mail

On Tue, 08 Jan 2008 17:01:26 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
 wrote:

>On Tue, 8 Jan 2008 03:10:03 -0800 (PST), robertharvey@my-deja.com wrote:
>
>> Humans are omnivores.  I, for one, do not intend to quibble with the
>> designer (omnipotent or darwinian)
>> 
>> I suggest you get over it, and find something else to worry about.
>
>Quite, and I'm a vegetarian. If it came down to me or a fluffy bunny, 
>sorry bunny you're going to die, 

It's not down to you or bunny though is it! There is plenty of lovely
veggie food choice, and simply no need to eat animals. So why do it?











--

My greatest speech to the peasants
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=em7LWuP0T7Q

pam the SPAMMERS send an email to enquires@urfreesim.co.uk



England / Angelic Upstarts 

The red in the flag is the blood that was spilt
In the way that your forefathers tell
And never a country has been so great
The stories Britannia could tell 

I never want to live my life
Away from the golden shores
There's never a country in the world
With the scent of an English rose 

England oh England a country so great
A land that's so fair and so true
There'll never be any colours like
The red the white and the blue 

Whenever you go to a far off land
There's something goes with you
The pride and the joy and the love that comes
For your mother of red white and blue 

You could never be born under a flag that's like
The one of the Union Jack
St.Georges spirit has never died
It all keeps coming back

On Tue, 08 Jan 2008 17:27:48 +0000, Adenoid Hynkel            .
 wrote:

>On Tue, 08 Jan 2008 17:01:26 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
> wrote:
>
>>On Tue, 8 Jan 2008 03:10:03 -0800 (PST), robertharvey@my-deja.com wrote:
>>
>>> Humans are omnivores.  I, for one, do not intend to quibble with the
>>> designer (omnipotent or darwinian)
>>> 
>>> I suggest you get over it, and find something else to worry about.
>>
>>Quite, and I'm a vegetarian. If it came down to me or a fluffy bunny, 
>>sorry bunny you're going to die, 
>
>It's not down to you or bunny though is it! There is plenty of lovely
>veggie food choice, and simply no need to eat animals. So why do it?

because they taste yummier than bean shoots.
-- 

Martin

On Tue, 08 Jan 2008 17:27:48 +0000, Adenoid Hynkel            . wrote:

>>> I suggest you get over it, and find something else to worry about.
>>
>> Quite, and I'm a vegetarian. If it came down to me or a fluffy bunny, 
>> sorry bunny you're going to die, 
> 
> It's not down to you or bunny though is it! 

Read what I wrote "*If* it came down.to me or fluffy bunny...". I don't 
eat dead animals if I can avoid it but have no qualms about killing and 
eating an animal if I had to.

> There is plenty of lovely veggie food choice, 

True enough provided the supermarket still has it on the shelves... If 
they don't I won't last very long on a diet of grass, the rabbits do 
though and I'll live a lot longer eating rabbit than grass.

> and simply no need to eat animals. So why do it?

I don't as rule but would if I had to.

-- 
Cheers                                              new5pam@howhill.com
Dave.                                             pam is missing e-mail

In article ,
Dave Liquorice <URL:mailto:new5pam@howhill.com> wrote:
> On Tue, 8 Jan 2008 03:10:03 -0800 (PST), robertharvey@my-deja.com wrote:
> 
> > Humans are omnivores.  I, for one, do not intend to quibble with the
> > designer (omnipotent or darwinian)
> > 
> > I suggest you get over it, and find something else to worry about.
> 
> Quite, and I'm a vegetarian. If it came down to me or a fluffy bunny, 
> sorry bunny you're going to die, assuming I can catch it...

Assuming it's burrowing and you can track it to the burrow then, if you're
patient enough (or hungry enough) to wait a few hours over the hole you can
often grab them by hand.

Cheerio,

-- 

>>   derek@farm-direct.co.uk
>>   http://www.farm-direct.co.uk/

Derek Moody  writes

>Assuming it's burrowing and you can track it to the burrow then, if you're 
>patient enough (or hungry enough) to wait a few hours over the hole you can 
>often grab them by hand.

Snares reputedly work well. Been in use for 10's of thousands of years.

-- 
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.

On Wed, 9 Jan 2008 00:20:18 +0000, Derek Moody
 wrote:

>In article ,
>Dave Liquorice <URL:mailto:new5pam@howhill.com> wrote:
>> On Tue, 8 Jan 2008 03:10:03 -0800 (PST), robertharvey@my-deja.com wrote:
>> 
>> > Humans are omnivores.  I, for one, do not intend to quibble with the
>> > designer (omnipotent or darwinian)
>> > 
>> > I suggest you get over it, and find something else to worry about.
>> 
>> Quite, and I'm a vegetarian. If it came down to me or a fluffy bunny, 
>> sorry bunny you're going to die, assuming I can catch it...
>
>Assuming it's burrowing and you can track it to the burrow then, if you're
>patient enough (or hungry enough) to wait a few hours over the hole you can
>often grab them by hand.

You don't need to so why bother!







--

My greatest speech to the peasants
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=em7LWuP0T7Q

pam the SPAMMERS send an email to enquires@urfreesim.co.uk



England / Angelic Upstarts 

The red in the flag is the blood that was spilt
In the way that your forefathers tell
And never a country has been so great
The stories Britannia could tell 

I never want to live my life
Away from the golden shores
There's never a country in the world
With the scent of an English rose 

England oh England a country so great
A land that's so fair and so true
There'll never be any colours like
The red the white and the blue 

Whenever you go to a far off land
There's something goes with you
The pride and the joy and the love that comes
For your mother of red white and blue 

You could never be born under a flag that's like
The one of the Union Jack
St.Georges spirit has never died
It all keeps coming back

On Wed, 09 Jan 2008 01:23:54 +0000 (GMT), "Dave Liquorice"
 wrote:

>On Tue, 08 Jan 2008 17:27:48 +0000, Adenoid Hynkel            . wrote:
>
>>>> I suggest you get over it, and find something else to worry about.
>>>
>>> Quite, and I'm a vegetarian. If it came down to me or a fluffy bunny, 
>>> sorry bunny you're going to die, 
>> 
>> It's not down to you or bunny though is it! 
>
>Read what I wrote "*If* it came down.to me or fluffy bunny...". I don't 
>eat dead animals if I can avoid it but have no qualms about killing and 
>eating an animal if I had to.

In the UK we don't need to so there is no *if*!

>> There is plenty of lovely veggie food choice, 
>
>True enough provided the supermarket still has it on the shelves... If 
>they don't I won't last very long on a diet of grass, the rabbits do 
>though and I'll live a lot longer eating rabbit than grass.

Does it not shame you to think in a time of crisis you'd die without a
supermarket shelf!

Open your eyes it's a big world out there and was long before Mr Tesco
came along. Vegetables are the easiest thing in the world to grow.

>> and simply no need to eat animals. So why do it?
>
>I don't as rule but would if I had to.








--

My greatest speech to the peasants
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=em7LWuP0T7Q

pam the SPAMMERS send an email to enquires@urfreesim.co.uk



England / Angelic Upstarts 

The red in the flag is the blood that was spilt
In the way that your forefathers tell
And never a country has been so great
The stories Britannia could tell 

I never want to live my life
Away from the golden shores
There's never a country in the world
With the scent of an English rose 

England oh England a country so great
A land that's so fair and so true
There'll never be any colours like
The red the white and the blue 

Whenever you go to a far off land
There's something goes with you
The pride and the joy and the love that comes
For your mother of red white and blue 

You could never be born under a flag that's like
The one of the Union Jack
St.Georges spirit has never died
It all keeps coming back

On Wed, 09 Jan 2008 08:41:15 +0000, Adenoid Hynkel            . wrote:

>> Read what I wrote "*If* it came down.to me or fluffy bunny...". I don't 
>> eat dead animals if I can avoid it but have no qualms about killing and 
>> eating an animal if I had to.
> 
> In the UK we don't need to so there is no *if*!

No if? I'll remind you of that when the oil runs out or there are more 
fuel protests (not that the government will *ever* let that happen again).

> Does it not shame you to think in a time of crisis you'd die without a
> supermarket shelf!

No I wouldn't die, 'cause I'd eat the rabbits, of which there are hundreds 
of the little buggers about round here.

> Open your eyes it's a big world out there and was long before Mr Tesco
> came along. Vegetables are the easiest thing in the world to grow.

Not in the middle of winter.  Fine if you have plenty of warning that Mr 
Tesco is going to have "supply problems" and can plan roughly a year in 
advance and have enough suitable land available to plant. 

I think you need to open your eyes to how close to the edge modern western 
society is in regards to food and energy supplies. It's all "just in time" 
the operative word being just.

-- 
Cheers                                              new5pam@howhill.com
Dave.                                             pam is missing e-mail

In article , Adenoid Hynkel. 
 writes

>Open your eyes it's a big world out there and was long before Mr Tesco
>came along. Vegetables are the easiest thing in the world to grow.


Ha! You've never had to grow onions in my raised beds then ...
and cauliflower's aren't much easier, in fact I don't bother any more. 
And which vegetables apart from beans which can play havoc with your 
digestion if eaten in quantities will provide protein, I mean the ones 
in the UK?
-- 
Janet Tweedy
Dalmatian Telegraph
http://www.lancedal.demon.co.uk

On Wednesday, in article
     
     new5pam@howhill.com "Dave Liquorice" wrote:

> I think you need to open your eyes to how close to the edge modern western 
> society is in regards to food and energy supplies. It's all "just in time" 
> the operative word being just.

You should see what happens if the delivery is late at one of your local 
supermarkets. I've seen it happen a couple of times locally: some 
breakdown and there's no bread. You can keep enough stock to cover such 
odd days, but it was about half the daily bread supply for the town.



-- 
David G. Bell -- SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.

On the horizon, a carrier task force of the Salvation Navy was 
turning into the wind, preparing to launch Zeppelins.

In article , Oz
<URL:mailto:Oz@farmeroz.port995.com> wrote:
> Derek Moody  writes
> 
> >Assuming it's burrowing and you can track it to the burrow then, if you're 
> >patient enough (or hungry enough) to wait a few hours over the hole you can 
> >often grab them by hand.
> 
> Snares reputedly work well. Been in use for 10's of thousands of years.

I haven't used them for years.  Used to get a few that way as a lad.  Maybe
I should make some more but atm I don't have anywhere to set them...

Cheerio,

-- 

>>   derek@farm-direct.co.uk
>>   http://www.farm-direct.co.uk/

Quoting from message 
 posted on 9 Jan 2008 by Derek Moody
 I would like to add:

> In article , Oz
> <URL:mailto:Oz@farmeroz.port995.com> wrote:
>> Derek Moody  writes
>> 
>> >Assuming it's burrowing and you can track it to the burrow then, if you're
>> >patient enough (or hungry enough) to wait a few hours over the hole you can
>> >often grab them by hand.
>> 
>> Snares reputedly work well. Been in use for 10's of thousands of years.
> 
> I haven't used them for years.  Used to get a few that way as a lad.  Maybe
> I should make some more but atm I don't have anywhere to set them...

Jones used to shoot them but with all the post Dunblane licensing regs 
he's ceased his certificates - firearms and shotgun, too many knee 
jerk regs.

-- 
.ElaineJ.  Visit Jones' Pages at http://www.users.zetnet.co.uk/ejones
.Virtual.  Corwen, North Wales; Steam Traction, with feature on 
Fodens; StrongArm  Textures/Backdrops; Spring Graphics
.RISC PC.  CMMGB with pics of pre- WW 1 Dawson & Yukon Volunteers.

""David G. Bell""  wrote in message 
news:20080109.1244.108713snz@zhochaka.org.uk...
> On Wednesday, in article
>     
>     new5pam@howhill.com "Dave Liquorice" wrote:
>
>> I think you need to open your eyes to how close to the edge modern 
>> western
>> society is in regards to food and energy supplies. It's all "just in 
>> time"
>> the operative word being just.
>
> You should see what happens if the delivery is late at one of your local
> supermarkets. I've seen it happen a couple of times locally: some
> breakdown and there's no bread. You can keep enough stock to cover such
> odd days, but it was about half the daily bread supply for the town.
>

yes, when you look at how much reserve stock is available in some towns, two 
or three days cut off with snow would be a major issue

Jim Webster

Jim Webster  writes
>yes, when you look at how much reserve stock is available in some towns, two 
>or three days cut off with snow would be a major issue 

Hmmm...

More true than one would want to know about. Few people store more than
a few days of anything. Stocks of dried foods (flour, pulses etc) are
often zero these days.

A situation where vast areas of the country were cut off (eg 1963) would
actually be life threatening on a mass scale.

Also, people seem to hoard-buy things like bread rather than dried
foods.

-- 
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.

"Oz"  wrote in message 
news:r$S1HrBHzchHFwIb@farmeroz.port995.com...
> Jim Webster  writes
>>yes, when you look at how much reserve stock is available in some towns, 
>>two
>>or three days cut off with snow would be a major issue
>
> Hmmm...
>
> More true than one would want to know about. Few people store more than
> a few days of anything. Stocks of dried foods (flour, pulses etc) are
> often zero these days.
>
> A situation where vast areas of the country were cut off (eg 1963) would
> actually be life threatening on a mass scale.
>
> Also, people seem to hoard-buy things like bread rather than dried
> foods.
>

actually in area where they are dependent on pumping stations to get them 
water, that might not be too silly. What use dry foods when there is no 
water at the tap and no one has come round with standpipes?
You'd probably need to have both dried and tinned foods, and a few spare 
water containers

Jim Webster

On Wed, 9 Jan 2008 09:18:37 +0000, Derek Moody
 wrote:

>In article , Oz
><URL:mailto:Oz@farmeroz.port995.com> wrote:
>> Derek Moody  writes
>> 
>> >Assuming it's burrowing and you can track it to the burrow then, if you're 
>> >patient enough (or hungry enough) to wait a few hours over the hole you can 
>> >often grab them by hand.
>> 
>> Snares reputedly work well. Been in use for 10's of thousands of years.
>
>I haven't used them for years.  Used to get a few that way as a lad.  Maybe
>I should make some more but atm I don't have anywhere to set them...

This conversation is almost as distasteful as listening to pedophiles
bragging about what they do for fun!

I guess given the characters involved there are no surprises. It's
just one day it would be nice to hear you getting pleasure from doing
something *normal* for a change!







--

My greatest speech to the peasants
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=em7LWuP0T7Q

pam the SPAMMERS send an email to enquires@urfreesim.co.uk



England / Angelic Upstarts 

The red in the flag is the blood that was spilt
In the way that your forefathers tell
And never a country has been so great
The stories Britannia could tell 

I never want to live my life
Away from the golden shores
There's never a country in the world
With the scent of an English rose 

England oh England a country so great
A land that's so fair and so true
There'll never be any colours like
The red the white and the blue 

Whenever you go to a far off land
There's something goes with you
The pride and the joy and the love that comes
For your mother of red white and blue 

You could never be born under a flag that's like
The one of the Union Jack
St.Georges spirit has never died
It all keeps coming back

On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 02:33:54 GMT, Elaine Jones
 wrote:

>Quoting from message 
> posted on 9 Jan 2008 by Derek Moody
> I would like to add:
>
>> In article , Oz
>> <URL:mailto:Oz@farmeroz.port995.com> wrote:
>>> Derek Moody  writes
>>> 
>>> >Assuming it's burrowing and you can track it to the burrow then, if you're
>>> >patient enough (or hungry enough) to wait a few hours over the hole you can
>>> >often grab them by hand.
>>> 
>>> Snares reputedly work well. Been in use for 10's of thousands of years.
>> 
>> I haven't used them for years.  Used to get a few that way as a lad.  Maybe
>> I should make some more but atm I don't have anywhere to set them...
>
>Jones used to shoot them but with all the post Dunblane licensing regs 
>he's ceased his certificates - firearms and shotgun, too many knee 
>jerk regs.

That was to keep guns away from jerks in the first place. I mean
simply stating "I want to kill animals for fun" is no longer
acceptable these days!









--

My greatest speech to the peasants
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=em7LWuP0T7Q

pam the SPAMMERS send an email to enquires@urfreesim.co.uk



England / Angelic Upstarts 

The red in the flag is the blood that was spilt
In the way that your forefathers tell
And never a country has been so great
The stories Britannia could tell 

I never want to live my life
Away from the golden shores
There's never a country in the world
With the scent of an English rose 

England oh England a country so great
A land that's so fair and so true
There'll never be any colours like
The red the white and the blue 

Whenever you go to a far off land
There's something goes with you
The pride and the joy and the love that comes
For your mother of red white and blue 

You could never be born under a flag that's like
The one of the Union Jack
St.Georges spirit has never died
It all keeps coming back

Jim Webster  writes
>actually in area where they are dependent on pumping stations to get them 
>water, that might not be too silly. What use dry foods when there is no 
>water at the tap and no one has come round with standpipes? 

snow is frozen water .....

-- 
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.

"Oz"  wrote in message 
news:RdybPLCFxehHFws+@farmeroz.port995.com...
> Jim Webster  writes
>>actually in area where they are dependent on pumping stations to get them
>>water, that might not be too silly. What use dry foods when there is no
>>water at the tap and no one has come round with standpipes?
>
> snow is frozen water .....
>

but thaws awfully slowly if your only heat source is electricity in a power 
cut.
The number of houses built with only electric and/or gas as power sources is 
high enough to be worrying

Jim Webster

Jim Webster  writes
>but thaws awfully slowly if your only heat source is electricity in a power 
>cut. The number of houses built with only electric and/or gas as power 
>sources is high enough to be worrying 

Hmmm, I guess some people don't have gas BBQ's or the odd small bottogas
heaters then?

-- 
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.

"Oz"  wrote in message 
news:IyjtUXCAvhhHFwdT@farmeroz.port995.com...
> Jim Webster  writes
>>but thaws awfully slowly if your only heat source is electricity in a 
>>power
>>cut. The number of houses built with only electric and/or gas as power
>>sources is high enough to be worrying
>
> Hmmm, I guess some people don't have gas BBQ's or the odd small bottogas
> heaters then?
>

quite a lot I suspect. What would someone in the urban Northwest terraced 
house want with a gas BBQ?

up here we can go for years without anyone suggesting a BBQ ;-))

There will be some but a lot of people will not have them

Jim Webster

Oz wrote:
> Jim Webster  writes
>> yes, when you look at how much reserve stock is available in some towns, two 
>> or three days cut off with snow would be a major issue 
> 
> Hmmm...
> 
> More true than one would want to know about. Few people store more than
> a few days of anything. Stocks of dried foods (flour, pulses etc) are
> often zero these days.
> 
> A situation where vast areas of the country were cut off (eg 1963) would
> actually be life threatening on a mass scale.
> 
> Also, people seem to hoard-buy things like bread rather than dried
> foods.
> 

So long as there's power, I've personally got a about two weeks of 
food.  Bread would be interesting - I could do lots of unleavened 
bread type things (pancakes, blinis, tortillas) from scratch, and a 
small amount of regular type bread (couple of bread making packs with 
the yeast included).  Tins, dried, frozen foods.

No power and we're down to what I can cook on an old open fireplace - 
and I don't have a large store of fuel, which means "use the frozen 
stuff NOW and keep the tins for later", which means things will get 
more limited.

Lots of ducks on the canal - very tame, should be easy to catch with a 
bit of old bread for bait ;-)


-- 
Jette Goldie
jette@blueyonder.co.uk
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
http://wolfette.livejournal.com/
("reply to" is spamblocked - use the email addy in sig)

Jim Webster wrote:
> "Oz"  wrote in message 
> news:RdybPLCFxehHFws+@farmeroz.port995.com...
>> Jim Webster  writes
>>> actually in area where they are dependent on pumping stations to get them
>>> water, that might not be too silly. What use dry foods when there is no
>>> water at the tap and no one has come round with standpipes?
>> snow is frozen water .....
>>
> 
> but thaws awfully slowly if your only heat source is electricity in a power 
> cut.
> The number of houses built with only electric and/or gas as power sources is 
> high enough to be worrying
> 

And a big pan of snow only gets you a little pan of water.


-- 
Jette Goldie
jette@blueyonder.co.uk
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
http://wolfette.livejournal.com/
("reply to" is spamblocked - use the email addy in sig)

Jim Webster  writes

>quite a lot I suspect. What would someone in the urban Northwest terraced 
>house want with a gas BBQ? 

cos they are advertised?

>up here we can go for years without anyone suggesting a BBQ ;-)) 

has summer passed you bye again?

>There will be some but a lot of people will not have them 

They will have a pretty tough time then.

-- 
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.

Jette  writes
>
>And a big pan of snow only gets you a little pan of water.
>

Yes, but there is probably HEAPS of it to be had just outside your
door....

-- 
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.

Jette  writes
>So long as there's power, I've personally got a about two weeks of food.  
>Bread would be interesting - I could do lots of unleavened bread type things 
>(pancakes, blinis, tortillas) from scratch, and a small amount of regular 
>type bread (couple of bread making packs with the yeast included).  

Note that a small bit of todays bread, left in a warm place until
tomorrow, will make enough yeast for tomorrow's bread.

>Tins, 
>dried, frozen foods.

Indeed. However its likely that power will be off, at least for several
days. Here, of course, the power will stay on since I bought a little
genny (£39.99, 750W, runs 10hrs on 4L), which will run the boiler and
waterpump.

-- 
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.

Jette wrote:
> Oz wrote:
>> Jim Webster  writes
>>> yes, when you look at how much reserve stock is available in some
>>> towns, two or three days cut off with snow would be a major issue
>>
>> Hmmm...
>>
>> More true than one would want to know about. Few people store more
>> than a few days of anything. Stocks of dried foods (flour, pulses
>> etc) are often zero these days.
>>
>> A situation where vast areas of the country were cut off (eg 1963)
>> would actually be life threatening on a mass scale.
>>
>> Also, people seem to hoard-buy things like bread rather than dried
>> foods.
>>
>
> So long as there's power, I've personally got a about two weeks of
> food.

So long as there is power I have freezers full.
It would cut the carbs but that is no bad thing.
Low on the greens especialy in the winter but could probably do some useful 
trading and get out the books to remind myself of what is non-poisonous from 
the wild.

-- 

regards
Jill Bowis

Pure bred utility chickens and ducks
Housing; Equipment,  Books, Videos, Gifts
Herbaceous; Herb and Alpine nursery
Working Holidays in Scotland
http://www.kintaline.co.uk

Oz wrote:
> Jette  writes
>> And a big pan of snow only gets you a little pan of water.
>>
> 
> Yes, but there is probably HEAPS of it to be had just outside your
> door....
> 


Nah, not outside MY door.  (and if it was, it would take a bit more 
than boiling it to make it safe)

Tis possible to be "snowed in" without a single flake landing near 
*you*, if it blocks the main routes into and out of a town or city. 
Used to happen all the time when I lived in East Lothian.

-- 
Jette Goldie
jette@blueyonder.co.uk
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
http://wolfette.livejournal.com/
("reply to" is spamblocked - use the email addy in sig)

"Oz"  wrote in message 
news:YHt55QD7ukhHFwsf@farmeroz.port995.com...
> Jim Webster  writes
>
>>quite a lot I suspect. What would someone in the urban Northwest terraced
>>house want with a gas BBQ?
>
> cos they are advertised?

stand on the pavement with your BBQ?

>
>>up here we can go for years without anyone suggesting a BBQ ;-))
>
> has summer passed you bye again?

It is a brave, or consistantly lucky individual who decides to have a BBQ 
more than twelve hours ahead ;-)

>
>>There will be some but a lot of people will not have them
>
> They will have a pretty tough time then.
>

exactly, a big problem.
At least the terraced houses   mostly still have their fireplaces

Jim Webster

"Oz"  wrote in message 
news:KXC9N3DG1khHFwOz@farmeroz.port995.com...
> Jette  writes
>>
>>And a big pan of snow only gets you a little pan of water.
>>
>
> Yes, but there is probably HEAPS of it to be had just outside your
> door....
>

the colour of urban snow, even when not actually yellow, is not such as to 
inspire one to culinary excellence........

Jim Webster

Jim Webster  writes
>
>"Oz"  wrote in message 
>news:YHt55QD7ukhHFwsf@farmeroz.port995.com...
>> Jim Webster  writes
>>
>>>quite a lot I suspect. What would someone in the urban Northwest terraced
>>>house want with a gas BBQ?
>>
>> cos they are advertised?
>
>stand on the pavement with your BBQ?

Don't they have back yards, actually people even take them to public
parks and have a BBQ there.

>>>up here we can go for years without anyone suggesting a BBQ ;-))
>>
>> has summer passed you bye again?
>
>It is a brave, or consistantly lucky individual who decides to have a BBQ 
>more than twelve hours ahead ;-)

Tsk, and I thought you could read your weather.


-- 
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.

Jim Webster  writes
>"Oz"  wrote in message 
>news:KXC9N3DG1khHFwOz@farmeroz.port995.com...
>> Jette  writes
>>>
>>>And a big pan of snow only gets you a little pan of water.
>>>
>>
>> Yes, but there is probably HEAPS of it to be had just outside your
>> door....
>>
>
>the colour of urban snow, even when not actually yellow, is not such as to 
>inspire one to culinary excellence........

Hmmm...


Was OK to eat in london in the 50's.

Just so long as it fell in the morning or there was a good breeze.

-- 
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.

Jill  writes
>
>So long as there is power I have freezers full.

And yards of chooks....

>It would cut the carbs but that is no bad thing. Low on the greens especialy 
>in the winter but could probably do some useful trading and get out the 
>books to remind myself of what is non-poisonous from the wild.

All under snow in this scenario...

Anyway, I thought you were on windswept moors...

-- 
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.

Oz wrote:
> Jim Webster  writes
>> "Oz"  wrote in message 
>> news:KXC9N3DG1khHFwOz@farmeroz.port995.com...
>>> Jette  writes
>>>> And a big pan of snow only gets you a little pan of water.
>>>>
>>> Yes, but there is probably HEAPS of it to be had just outside your
>>> door....
>>>
>> the colour of urban snow, even when not actually yellow, is not such as to 
>> inspire one to culinary excellence........
> 
> Hmmm...
> 
> 
> Was OK to eat in london in the 50's.

Way fewer cars in the 50s.

> 
> Just so long as it fell in the morning or there was a good breeze.
> 

In cities snow often doesn't fall as snow - it turns to slush as soon 
as it hits the ground.  Cities - and towns - tend to be warmer than 
the surrounding countryside.  Then you get a heavy fall of snow on the 
ring roads around and arterial routes into the city, blocking the 
transport of supplies into the city.

-- 
Jette Goldie
jette@blueyonder.co.uk
http://www.jette.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/
http://wolfette.livejournal.com/
("reply to" is spamblocked - use the email addy in sig)

Oz wrote:
>
> Anyway, I thought you were on windswept moors...

less than 150m from the sea and less than 10m asl

-- 

regards
Jill Bowis

Pure bred utility chickens and ducks
Housing; Equipment,  Books, Videos, Gifts
Herbaceous; Herb and Alpine nursery
Working Holidays in Scotland
http://www.kintaline.co.uk

Jette  writes
>Oz wrote:
>> Jim Webster  writes
>>> "Oz"  wrote in message 
>>> news:KXC9N3DG1khHFwOz@farmeroz.port995.com...
>>>> Jette  writes
>>>>> And a big pan of snow only gets you a little pan of water.
>>>>>
>>>> Yes, but there is probably HEAPS of it to be had just outside your
>>>> door....
>>>>
>>> the colour of urban snow, even when not actually yellow, is not such as to 
>>> inspire one to culinary excellence........
>> 
>> Hmmm...
>> 
>> 
>> Was OK to eat in london in the 50's.
>
>Way fewer cars in the 50s.

Yes, but WAY more coal fired fires and london smogs that you wouldn't
believe if you hadn't seen them. Nothing, but nothing, remotely compares
in britain today, anywhere.

>> Just so long as it fell in the morning or there was a good breeze.
>> 
>
>In cities snow often doesn't fall as snow - it turns to slush as soon 
>as it hits the ground.  

Yes, but I said snow!

>Cities - and towns - tend to be warmer than 
>the surrounding countryside.  Then you get a heavy fall of snow on the 
>ring roads around and arterial routes into the city, blocking the 
>transport of supplies into the city.

Its probably these main roads which will get cleared quickly.
Unfortunately not much help if you can't actually get to them.

-- 
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.

Jill  writes
>Oz wrote:
>>
>> Anyway, I thought you were on windswept moors...
>
>less than 150m from the sea and less than 10m asl 

I know, but moors reach the sea too.

I remember climbing (walking up) some godforsaken scots mountain
starting at sea level. Hard walking heather moor, grassy bogs, from
start to finish, and it was only a 2000'er. Hell on earth...

-- 
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.

Oz wrote:
> Jill  writes
>> Oz wrote:
>>>
>>> Anyway, I thought you were on windswept moors...
>>
>> less than 150m from the sea and less than 10m asl
>
> I know, but moors reach the sea too.

Not on raised beaches


-- 

regards
Jill Bowis

Pure bred utility chickens and ducks
Housing; Equipment,  Books, Videos, Gifts
Herbaceous; Herb and Alpine nursery
Working Holidays in Scotland
http://www.kintaline.co.uk

In article , Oz says...

> genny (£39.99, 750W, runs 10hrs on 4L), 

used it yet?

Where did you get it?

What do you reckon to it?

I'm fed up now of the electricity going off and being left in the dark 
for a few hours whilst we cook with the bottled gas stove.

Heatings OK - we just chuck plenty of wood on the stove at one end of 
home and light the open fire at the bedroom end.


-- 
David
Visit http://www.farm-direct.co.uk for your local farmgate food 
supplies.
FAQ's, Glossary, Farming Year and more!

In article , Jim Webster 
 writes

>
>exactly, a big problem.
>At least the terraced houses   mostly still have their fireplaces
>
>Jim Webster
>
>


So do a lot of ordinary houses around here. We have one but several 
houses in our road still have. two. We have a multi fuel stove in the 
fireplace, so we wouldn't be too bad.
Also have a gas / cylinder heater for emergencies


Janet
-- 
Janet Tweedy
Dalmatian Telegraph
http://www.lancedal.demon.co.uk

David P  writes
>In article , Oz says...
>
>> genny (£39.99, 750W, runs 10hrs on 4L), 
>
>used it yet?

Run it up. Standard east-to-start two stroke.

>Where did you get it?

<embarrassed>

Times special offer if I remember.

>What do you reckon to it?

Surprised how easy to start, and how good it is.

>I'm fed up now of the electricity going off and being left in the dark 
>for a few hours whilst we cook with the bottled gas stove.
>
>Heatings OK - we just chuck plenty of wood on the stove at one end of 
>home and light the open fire at the bedroom end.

We are a tad short of open fires that work.

er, we have one....

-- 
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.

David P wrote:
> In article , Oz says...
> 
>> genny (£39.99, 750W, runs 10hrs on 4L), 
> 
> used it yet?
> 
> Where did you get it?
> 
> What do you reckon to it?
> 
> I'm fed up now of the electricity going off and being left in the dark 
> for a few hours whilst we cook with the bottled gas stove.
> 
> Heatings OK - we just chuck plenty of wood on the stove at one end of 
> home and light the open fire at the bedroom end.

I bought mine from Aldi in the summer.  2.5Kw (assume KVA).  It has two 
wheels so I can easily move it around the garden for remote hedge 
cutting, etc.  Starts fairly easily provided one leaves it for a while 
with the petrol on to fill the carburetor.  No flywheel so lights are a 
bit flickery, improves with load.  Coughs a bit when a 9 inch angle 
grinder is started.


-- 
Old Codger
e-mail use reply to field

What matters in politics is not what happens, but what you can make 
people believe has happened. [Janet Daley 27/8/2003]

"Oz"  wrote in message 
news:OEIMpBEvMmhHFwPg@farmeroz.port995.com...
> Jim Webster  writes
>>
>>"Oz"  wrote in message
>>news:YHt55QD7ukhHFwsf@farmeroz.port995.com...
>>> Jim Webster  writes
>>>
>>>>quite a lot I suspect. What would someone in the urban Northwest 
>>>>terraced
>>>>house want with a gas BBQ?
>>>
>>> cos they are advertised?
>>
>>stand on the pavement with your BBQ?
>
> Don't they have back yards,

yep, yards, not a lot of room

 actually people even take them to public
> parks and have a BBQ there.

Certainly not in this town, a picnic perhaps, but these are formal parks not 
sprawling wildlife areas, we don't need them with countryside so close to 
town centres

>
>>>>up here we can go for years without anyone suggesting a BBQ ;-))
>>>
>>> has summer passed you bye again?
>>
>>It is a brave, or consistantly lucky individual who decides to have a BBQ
>>more than twelve hours ahead ;-)
>
> Tsk, and I thought you could read your weather.
>

yep, sometimes as far as six hours ahead ;-))

Jim Webster

"Janet Tweedy"  wrote in message 
news:EMSxzgFR4mhHFwOC@ukonline.co.uk...
> In article , Jim Webster 
>  writes
>
>>
>>exactly, a big problem.
>>At least the terraced houses   mostly still have their fireplaces
>>
>>Jim Webster
>>
>>
>
>
> So do a lot of ordinary houses around here. We have one but several houses 
> in our road still have. two. We have a multi fuel stove in the fireplace, 
> so we wouldn't be too bad.
> Also have a gas / cylinder heater for emergencies
>
>
yes, that extra provision always struck me as entirely sensible.

Jim Webster

On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 08:47:14 -0000, Jim Webster wrote:

>> Also, people seem to hoard-buy things like bread rather than dried
>> foods.
> 
> actually in area where they are dependent on pumping stations to get 
> them  water, 

That's only a problem if they are daft enough to have one of those combi 
boiler things and no 50 gallon cold water storage tank in the loft.

Lets see there is probably about 250 gallons of cold water storage here, 
historical, mains water didn't arrive until about 20 years ago...

We have a fairly comprehensive set of backup cooking, lighting and some 
power along with a stock of dried/tinned food. When the power goes or we 
are snowed in we are fairly comfortably self contained for several days. 
The food might get a bit basic/repetative after a while but it will be hot 
and we will be warm. What more do you *really* need?  Nothing.

-- 
Cheers                                              new5pam@howhill.com
Dave.                                             pam is missing e-mail

In article , Elaine Jones
<URL:mailto:elaine@cae-coed.zetnet.co.uk> wrote:
> Quoting from message 
>  posted on 9 Jan 2008 by Derek Moody
>  I would like to add:
> 
> > In article , Oz
> > <URL:mailto:Oz@farmeroz.port995.com> wrote:

> >> Snares reputedly work well. Been in use for 10's of thousands of years.
> > 
> > I haven't used them for years.  Used to get a few that way as a lad.  Maybe
> > I should make some more but atm I don't have anywhere to set them...
> 
> Jones used to shoot them but with all the post Dunblane licensing regs 
> he's ceased his certificates - firearms and shotgun, too many knee 
> jerk regs.

I get the odd brace from shooting friends but tbh I prefer the ferreted ones
- easier on the teeth.  It's about this time of year we usually go - I know
Steve is on holday right now ... I wonder who's looking after his ferrets...

Cheerio, 

-- 

>>   derek@farm-direct.co.uk
>>   http://www.farm-direct.co.uk/

In article <5Qrhj.75275$c_1.29921@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk>, Jette
<URL:mailto:bosslady@scotlandmail.com> wrote:
> Oz wrote:
> > Jim Webster  writes

> > Also, people seem to hoard-buy things like bread rather than dried
> > foods.

> So long as there's power, I've personally got a about two weeks of 
> food.  Bread would be interesting - I could do lots of unleavened 
> bread type things (pancakes, blinis, tortillas) from scratch, and a 
> small amount of regular type bread (couple of bread making packs with 
> the yeast included).  Tins, dried, frozen foods.

Hmmm.. Maybe I'be better check the flour stocks.  Atm I've two or three
weeks worth of food to hand though the menus might get a little novel
towards the end.

> No power and we're down to what I can cook on an old open fireplace - 
> and I don't have a large store of fuel, which means "use the frozen 
> stuff NOW and keep the tins for later", which means things will get 
> more limited.
> 
> Lots of ducks on the canal - very tame, should be easy to catch with a 
> bit of old bread for bait ;-)

Protein shouldn't be too hard but carbohydrates will be tricky.  As usual,
in this crowded country, althogh I might find enough wild food for a couple
of people within a reasonable range there will be a few tens of thousands
of, mostly inept, competitors.

It could get messy.

Cheerio,

-- 

>>   derek@farm-direct.co.uk
>>   http://www.farm-direct.co.uk/

Jim Webster  writes
>
>>Oz
> actually people even take them to public
>> parks and have a BBQ there.
>
>Certainly not in this town, a picnic perhaps, but these are formal parks not 
>sprawling wildlife areas, we don't need them with countryside so close to 
>town centres 

Most farmers are somewhat unkeen on random bbq's happening on their
land. However a nice park is ideal, plenty of space for the kids and you
can invite lots of people. Its just a somewhat upmarket picnic after
all.

-- 
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.

"Oz"  wrote in message 
news:7CZh4RGqdwhHFwJU@farmeroz.port995.com...
> Jim Webster  writes
>>
>>>Oz
>> actually people even take them to public
>>> parks and have a BBQ there.
>>
>>Certainly not in this town, a picnic perhaps, but these are formal parks 
>>not
>>sprawling wildlife areas, we don't need them with countryside so close to
>>town centres
>
> Most farmers are somewhat unkeen on random bbq's happening on their
> land. However a nice park is ideal, plenty of space for the kids and you
> can invite lots of people. Its just a somewhat upmarket picnic after
> all.
>

as I say, we don't have that sort of park. What we do have is beach on three 
sides of us (except where the docks are obviously ;-) ) so you will get 
people drive out and drink a few beers round an drift wood fire.
Sometimes they might cook something as well

Jim Webster

"Dave Liquorice"  wrote in message 
news:nyyfbegfubjuvyypbz.jugp1j3.pminews@srv1.howhill.net...
> On Thu, 10 Jan 2008 08:47:14 -0000, Jim Webster wrote:
>
>>> Also, people seem to hoard-buy things like bread rather than dried
>>> foods.
>>
>> actually in area where they are dependent on pumping stations to get
>> them  water,
>
> That's only a problem if they are daft enough to have one of those combi
> boiler things and no 50 gallon cold water storage tank in the loft.
>
> Lets see there is probably about 250 gallons of cold water storage here,
> historical, mains water didn't arrive until about 20 years ago...
>
> We have a fairly comprehensive set of backup cooking, lighting and some
> power along with a stock of dried/tinned food. When the power goes or we
> are snowed in we are fairly comfortably self contained for several days.
> The food might get a bit basic/repetative after a while but it will be hot
> and we will be warm. What more do you *really* need?  Nothing.
>

our house to too old to do the central heating/boiler thing, putting pipes 
through the walls would be a nightmare, so we have a few storage heaters, 
but as I suspect with you, the electric does go off reasonably often (three 
times last wednesday night but thankfully only for short periods, so we are 
geared up for it.
Our worst was six and a half days without electric (when there were the big 
floods in Carlisle) which can be pretty depressing in January, but at least 
we still had running water

Jim Webster

Jim Webster  writes

>as I say, we don't have that sort of park. 

You personally, or Barrow?

>What we do have is beach on three 
>sides of us (except where the docks are obviously ;-) ) so you will get 
>people drive out and drink a few beers round an drift wood fire. Sometimes 
>they might cook something as well 

There you go. 
I expect there are beaches you can almost drive onto as well.

-- 
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.

"Oz"  wrote in message 
news:HzU+kCHd1xhHFwdJ@farmeroz.port995.com...
> Jim Webster  writes
>
>>as I say, we don't have that sort of park.
>
> You personally, or Barrow?
>
pretty much the entire county, we don't need that sort of park,

>>What we do have is beach on three
>>sides of us (except where the docks are obviously ;-) ) so you will get
>>people drive out and drink a few beers round an drift wood fire. Sometimes
>>they might cook something as well
>
> There you go.
> I expect there are beaches you can almost drive onto as well.


Seriously the only thing that stops you driving onto some beaches is the sea 
walls and they leave access roads down for the cockle fishermen

It is not uncommon for someone to polish up a plough in spring by ploughing 
an acre of beach, just to get a shine.

Jim Webster

>

Jim Webster  writes
>
>
>Seriously the only thing that stops you driving onto some beaches is the sea 
>walls and they leave access roads down for the cockle fishermen 
>
>It is not uncommon for someone to polish up a plough in spring by ploughing 
>an acre of beach, just to get a shine.

See, plenty of opportunity for a bbq!

checkmate...

-- 
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.

"Oz"  wrote in message 
news:sBvUYkHyXzhHFw6P@farmeroz.port995.com...
> Jim Webster  writes
>>
>>
>>Seriously the only thing that stops you driving onto some beaches is the 
>>sea
>>walls and they leave access roads down for the cockle fishermen
>>
>>It is not uncommon for someone to polish up a plough in spring by 
>>ploughing
>>an acre of beach, just to get a shine.
>
> See, plenty of opportunity for a bbq!
>
> checkmate...

is that what you call it at high tide in the rain ;-)
With the wind coming in off the sea

Jim Webster

Jim Webster  writes

>>Oz
>>
>> See, plenty of opportunity for a bbq!
>>
>> checkmate...
>
>is that what you call it at high tide 

its not high tide for long.

>in the rain ;-) 

Even with you, it doesn't rain all the time.
I check you out regularly on the radar!

>With the wind coming 
>in off the sea 

A cooling breeze.

-- 
Oz
This post is worth absolutely nothing and is probably fallacious.

In article , Jim Webster 
 writes
>
>"Oz"  wrote in message
>news:HzU+kCHd1xhHFwdJ@farmeroz.port995.com...
>> Jim Webster  writes
>>
>>>as I say, we don't have that sort of park.
>>
>> You personally, or Barrow?
>>
>pretty much the entire county, we don't need that sort of park,
>
>>>What we do have is beach on three
>>>sides of us (except where the docks are obviously ;-) ) so you will get
>>>people drive out and drink a few beers round an drift wood fire. Sometimes
>>>they might cook something as well
>>
>> There you go.
>> I expect there are beaches you can almost drive onto as well.
>
>
>Seriously the only thing that stops you driving onto some beaches is the sea
>walls and they leave access roads down for the cockle fishermen
>
>It is not uncommon for someone to polish up a plough in spring by ploughing
>an acre of beach, just to get a shine.
>
Yes, one or two farmers here do that, leading to the inevitable 
questions from visitors about the furrows in the sand, leading to the 
inevitable straight-faced accounts of experimental crops by the locals 
:-))

-- 
Malcolm

"Oz"  wrote in message 
news:PGYsp9Huy0hHFwvM@farmeroz.port995.com...
> Jim Webster  writes
>
>>>Oz
>>>
>>> See, plenty of opportunity for a bbq!
>>>
>>> checkmate...