In an increasingly apathetic world it's nice to see some people are
still prepared to do our fighting for us.

GO SWAMPY GO


http://environment.independent.co.uk/climate_change/article2876542.ece

The return of Swampy: Underground eco-hero joins the Heathrow protest 
Campaigners say they will start direct action against the proposed
third runway at noon today – with help from the original green rebel.
Jonathan Owen reports 
Published: 19 August 2007 
The talking is over. The plans have been made. The mass direct action
promised by the environmentalists camping near the perimeter of
Heathrow airport will take place from noon today, they promised
yesterday – although nobody could rule out a maverick group going off
to chain itself to something in the meantime.

Six people were arrested on suspicion of burglary after apparently
breaking into the warehouse of a fruit importer, and police linked the
break-in to the Camp for Climate Action. Protests would take place
around the airport, a camp spokesman said. Some would be big, some
small. "We are still seeing people arriving," he said. "There are
about 1,200 here."

Among them was a veteran of former campaigns, keeping his head down
and his fame hidden. Swampy became a household name in 1996, after one
of a series of protests against road developments pitted green
campaigners against the police for the first time. Some tied
themselves to trees but Swampy stayed underground in tunnels for a
week like a human mole. And when he emerged, blinking into the light,
he became a media star.

Daniel Hooper, to give him his real name, was articulate and
passionate. He had a cheeky charm and was even prepared to endure
makeovers and appearances on television programmes like Have I Got
News For You to make his point. But then he disappeared from the
public gaze.

Now 33 years old and a father of three, it seems the original
eco-warrior has been unable to resist the lure of the climate camp and
the biggest environmental stand-off in years. But Swampy's acceptance
by the community on site appears to have been dependent on his
maintaining a low profile. Visitors are definitely not welcome. "We
don't want everyone coming down here and looking at us just because
Swampy is with us,"said one camp member yesterday. "He hasn't changed
really, but he wants to be left alone now."

The secrecy about the long-planned action has been so tight that even
regular protesters claim not to know exactly what would take place.
There were long and sometimes heated discussions about what to do, in
a community that has chosen to have no leaders and make all its
decisions by consensus. But another of the many camp spokespeople
said: "The time has now come for civil society to engage in civil
disobedience – and that's what will happen tomorrow."

Ben Healey was responding to a call from airline pilots for the
protesters to meet them in "peace talks". Captain Mervyn Granshaw,
chairman of the British Air Line Pilots Association, said: "We would
like to come to a common understanding about carbon dioxide emissions
from aircraft." And he added: "Aircraft are minor polluters, air
travel is not the fastest-growing source of emissions and most
flights, compared with other transport modes, are green."

The campers totally disagree, of course. They have been listening to
serious seminars on the subject at the camp all week, from the likes
of George Monbiot and Tony Juniper, and reject the pilots' claims.
"We're more than happy to discuss the science of climate change with
anybody," said Mr Healey, "but right now we're caught up planning for
tomorrow's direct action. After the camp is over we will meet them."

Walking towards the Heathrow climate camp yesterday felt like
approaching a musical festival, but for the heavy police presence.
Families with toddlers, elderly locals and even foreign tourists were
also making their way there. Organic food was being cooked using wind,
sun or biofuel at the centre of each of the tented neighbourhoods
formed in the camp.

No detail had been left to chance, from the provision of
environmentally friendly toilets to timetabled daily meetings and
workshops. In one tent a group of protesters listened avidly to a
lecture on climate change, while just next door another group
rehearsed ways of resisting the police. They could be seen being
dragged across the floor while seated, in preparation for a sit-down
protest.

Somebody at the entrance to the camp handed me a card warning me not
to give my name and address to the police. "This [the camp] is the
fluffy stuff," he said. "There are other things be.ng planned for
tomorrow." Yesterday evening the police presence was starting to
escalate, with the appearance of more of the 1,800 extra officers and
negotiations being held with camp organisers.

All the while, police intelligence teams and protesters were busy
taking pictures of one another. A pair of community support officers
were surrounded and taunted by 20 activists dressed as clowns, to the
amusement of onlookers.

While most people were insisting their demonstration would be
peaceful, would not endanger life and were aimed at the authorities
rather than travellers, one tent was emblazoned with the words "Fuck
Civil, let's get disobedience". There were rumours that to escape a
possible police blockade some protesters had already left and would
use it as a decoy. The actions being talked about in the camp ranged
from mass sit-ins to office occupations by suit-wearing protesters,
people chaining or gluing themselves to gates and doors. Organisers
had previously boasted that campaigners will "lay siege" to BAA's
nearby headquarters.

Stephen Milligan, another spokesman, said: "We will all descend on
BAA's corporate offices and besiege them for as long we can. This is
meant to target the corporate criminals that are behind the airport
expansion. If the runway goes ahead we will have runaway climate
change which will result in millions of deaths around the world."

He added: "This is about building a movement for change and this is
just the beginning."

Police have warned that any direct action would be seen as a security
threat and could disrupt thousands of airport passengers and staff.
They have been dealing with protesters under counter-terrorism laws,
which allow them to stop and search and hold people without charge.

When residents from the surrounding villages of Harlington, Sipson and
Harmondsworth first heard that a massive climate camp was to be
pitched at Heathrow airport, where they have spent years campaigning
against controversial developments, they were delighted. If a third
runway and an accompanying sixth terminal (as has been mooted) is
built, the number of flights every year will rise from 473,000 to
710,000. But existing flights already pump 31 million tons of CO2 into
the atmosphere. The consultation on the plan begins next month.

Christine Taylor, a resident of Sipson and vice-chairman of NoTRAG (No
Third Runway Action Group), which has been leading the local campaign
for five years, welcomed the extra attention but was also worried that
illegal action could harm years of good work. "This group was
virtually unknown to us until very recently," she said. "We only heard
of the climate camp really when they decided to come to the area, so
an awful lot has had to be taken on trust. If that trust is misplaced
and there is some sort of serious disruption and illegal acts these
could jeopardise our own campaign for ever."

And Mrs Taylor warned that "illegal action may end up affecting local
campaigners, not just the activists who are passing through. You stand
the risk of being involved with people associated with direct action
and being tarred with the same brush."

Swampy travelled to Heathrow last week from Tipi Valley, a new-age
commune close to the village of Abergorlech, north of Carmarthen in
west Wales. Friends in the commune explained that he had embraced the
battle to stop airport expansion. "I doubt he will get into trouble,"
one said. "He will keep his head down, but he still cares about the
environment. He still has his principles but he just doesn't shout
about them like he used to. I would bet that most people don't even
know who he is, and he probably won't tell them."

Swampy tries to be as self-sufficient as possible at home in Wales, in
a community where there is no electricity or running water. His tent
complex, which he shares with his partner and their three children, is
in an isolated area reached by a footpath half a mile long. The family
grow most of their own food, wash in a nearby stream and use an
eco-loo.

"I wouldn't swap places with anyone," he reportedly said recently.
"There's no crime, no noise and no pollution. We don't have any
mortgage or bills to pay, so life is great." Swampy said he will a
remain a free spirit, but added: "I'm older now and I've mellowed."

On Aug 20, 5:49 pm, Broadback  wrote:
> John M. wrote:
> > On Aug 20, 12:08 pm, Broadback  wrote:
> >> Robert Seago wrote:
> >>> In article ,
> >>>    Broadback  wrote:
> >>>> Snip
> >>>> Come off it, the vast majority of these are Nimbies, not global warming
> >>>> protesters. Anyway, apart from the media hype what makes you think that
> >>>> a) there is global warming
> >>> Most of the media hype has been on the other side.  This was the
> >>> overriding publicity for over 30 years. There is extensive data for a
> >>> period of several hundred years that demonstrate a warning steady until
> >>> somewhere around 1910 and then upturning, giving it a hockey stick
> >>> profile. Even the CCC acknowledge the actual warming.
> >>> The much quoted medieval warm spell was not global, just northern Europe.
> >>> The cooling for a time after the second world war is usually understood to
> >>> be the result of particulate pollution mostly sulphates.
> >>>> b) if there is it is caused by us burning fossil fuels
> >>> the fact of more CO2 in the atmosphere building year on year is not
> >>> disputed, it is monitored in Hawaii.
> >>> Extra CO2 from whatever source will produce a greenhouse effect from
> >>> whatever source.
> >>>> c) that global warming will have the effect on the weather predicted?
> >>> I am old enough to remember the prediction of these effects before they
> >>> were measurable.  The vested interests at that time denied any effect.
> >>> Indeed with the cooling of the fifties it was easy to brush it aside.
> >>> While the science behind this is not complete, there is steadily more and
> >>> more data which suggests that the deposition of more and more CO2 is
> >>> causing the more energetically charged atmosphere which will lead to more
> >>> turbulent and thus unpredictable climate.
> >>>> Do you listen to the weather forecasts? The "scientists" cannot get
> >>>> tomorrow right, never mind the distant future.
> >>> Short term local details are likely always to be the most difficult to
> >>> predict.
> >>> You talk of media hype.  Are you not embarrased by the Channel 4
> >>> documentary.  Would you not think they could put forward an anti case
> >>> without misquoting a scientist on there and without hiding the public
> >>> domain data which completely opposed their central thesis that sunspots
> >>> were in some way able to explain the warming, a fact incidentally which
> >>> they did not seek to deny.
> >> Perhaps you should do a little research of your own, not rely on the
> >> media. I have, and I am not convinced that there is global warming, even
> >> if there is that is is caused by man. Look up the facts about the ice on
> >> this planet, then look up the temperatures of Antarctica. Plenty more
> >> facts if you look for them that do not point to global warming.  Also
> >> why do the global warming lobby ignore the sun's output, surely that has
> >> the biggest effect on our climate?  If it is warming Mars then maybe it
> >> is warming the Earth.
>
> > A little knowledge is a dangerous thing. A little science knowledge is
> > a really, really dangerous thing. It encourages its afficionados to
> > openly challenge the results compiled by thousands of people using
> > hundreds of hours of time and millions of brain cells.
>
> > With opinionated but ignorant people to work on, Germany's 1930s
> > National Socialists came within a whisker of world domination. So next
> > time wise-up before you speak up.
>
> Perhaps if you read a little on Eugenics it may show you that
> scientists, polictions and the media do get it wrong. Or perhaps you
> agree deep down that the USA, Churchill and Hitler, among others, were
> correct and the gene pool is going to pot and sterilisation and
> euthenasia (in this case a posh word for murder) is the right way forward.

I'll leave questions of medical ethics to those who are proved by
their track record to be competent in such matters.

Meanwhile why don't we leave climate science, or any other branch of
science for that matter, to those whose track record shows them to be
competent. People who believe interpreting scientifically derived and
processed data is somehow just a matter of preference and personal
opinion need to wise-up or shut up, as I have already said.

In reply to John M. (john_howard_morgan@hotmail.co.uk) who wrote this in 
1187789758.527804.176510@j4g2000prf.googlegroups.com, I, Marvo, say :

> Meanwhile why don't we leave climate science, or any other branch of
> science for that matter, to those whose track record shows them to be
> competent. People who believe interpreting scientifically derived and
> processed data is somehow just a matter of preference and personal
> opinion need to wise-up or shut up, as I have already said.

Brings to mind an episode by one Michael Fish, who interpreted loads of 
scientifically derived and processed data, in the dim, distant past ...

On Aug 20, 6:23 pm, "buddenbrooks"  wrote:
> "John M."  wrote in message
>
> news:1187615422.503411.183920@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
>  >> With opinionated but ignorant people to work on, Germany's 1930s
> > National Socialists came within a whisker of world domination. So next
> > time wise-up before you speak up.
>
> Pratt!

So you believed everything you read in "Mein Kampf" did you?

Ignorant people whose opinion is that one race of humans is 'better'
than another, and voted for world domination by Aryans as a result,
might be better removed and isolated from society as they are likely
incapable of wiseing-up. But that's what you Aryan bastards did to the
Jews, gypsies and homosexuals, wasn't it? Better being a pratt than a
bigotted Nazi scumbag like you.

"John M."  wrote in message 
news:1187789758.527804.176510@j4g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
> On Aug 20, 5:49 pm, Broadback  wrote:
<snip>

>
> Meanwhile why don't we leave climate science, or any other branch of
> science for that matter, to those whose track record shows them to be
> competent. People who believe interpreting scientifically derived and
> processed data is somehow just a matter of preference and personal
> opinion need to wise-up or shut up, as I have already said.
>

Of course climate science should be left to climate scientists. It's 
mistrust of the 'spin' sometimes put on 'scientific' findings which leads to 
scepticism, I suspect. For example, Home Office statistics show that 'crime' 
is increasing, hence the surrender of civil liberties is justified. Or 
driving Range Rovers causes global warming, hence increases on taxes on 4x4s 
is justified, etc.

On 22 Aug, 14:39, "Uncle Marvo" 
wrote:
> > Meanwhile why don't we leave climate science, or any other branch of
> > science for that matter, to those whose track record shows them to be
> > competent. People who believe interpreting scientifically derived and
> > processed data is somehow just a matter of preference and personal
> > opinion need to wise-up or shut up, as I have already said.
>
> Brings to mind an episode by one Michael Fish, who interpreted loads of
> scientifically derived and processed data, in the dim, distant past ...

Saw that one. There was lots of clouds that day ...

On Aug 22, 4:46 pm, La Puce  wrote:
> On 22 Aug, 14:39, "Uncle Marvo" 
> wrote:
>
> > > Meanwhile why don't we leave climate science, or any other branch of
> > > science for that matter, to those whose track record shows them to be
> > > competent. People who believe interpreting scientifically derived and
> > > processed data is somehow just a matter of preference and personal
> > > opinion need to wise-up or shut up, as I have already said.
>
> > Brings to mind an episode by one Michael Fish, who interpreted loads of
> > scientifically derived and processed data, in the dim, distant past ...
>
> Saw that one. There was lots of clouds that day ...

The Michael Fish forecast was for hot and sunny, wasn't it? :-0

On Aug 20, 6:45 pm, Gloria  wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Aug 2007 17:23:56 +0100, "buddenbrooks"
>
>  wrote:
>
> >"John M."  wrote in message
> >news:1187615422.503411.183920@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> With opinionated but ignorant people to work on, Germany's 1930s
> >> National Socialists came within a whisker of world domination. So next
> >> time wise-up before you speak up.
>
> >Pratt!
>
> I think most would agree with you there. He claims to be a scientist,
> although untraceable, he doesn't even have the receipt!

You now claim to be a woman, Pete, but you haven't told us the name of
the surgeon who turned your dick into a clit. But we clearly
understood he had to dramatically enlarge it to do so.

On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 06:48:04 -0700, "John M."
 wrote:

>On Aug 20, 6:23 pm, "buddenbrooks"  wrote:
>> "John M."  wrote in message
>>
>> news:1187615422.503411.183920@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
>>  >> With opinionated but ignorant people to work on, Germany's 1930s
>> > National Socialists came within a whisker of world domination. So next
>> > time wise-up before you speak up.
>>
>> Pratt!
>
>So you believed everything you read in "Mein Kampf" did you?
>
>Ignorant people whose opinion is that one race of humans is 'better'
>than another, and voted for world domination by Aryans as a result,
>might be better removed and isolated from society as they are likely
>incapable of wiseing-up. But that's what you Aryan bastards did to the
>Jews, gypsies and homosexuals, wasn't it? Better being a pratt than a
>bigotted Nazi scumbag like you.
>

Who rattled the bars on your cell today! Is it because your sock
puppets got caught out again?

We knew you were posting as pharty breath cos your ip told us so
john_howard_morgan@hotmail.co.uk
NNTP-Posting-Host: 90.28.19.95

From: Philip H Hart 
NNTP-Posting-Host: 90.28.19.95

Whoopsy daisy, looks like the fake scientist got his sums wrong LOL

"John M."  wrote in message 
news:1187790484.997580.137260@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
> On Aug 20, 6:23 pm, "buddenbrooks"  wrote:
>> "John M."  wrote in message
>>
>> news:1187615422.503411.183920@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
>>  >> With opinionated but ignorant people to work on, Germany's 1930s
>> > National Socialists came within a whisker of world domination. So next
>> > time wise-up before you speak up.
>>
>> Pratt!
>
> So you believed everything you read in "Mein Kampf" did you?
>
> Ignorant people whose opinion is that one race of humans is 'better'
> than another, and voted for world domination by Aryans as a result,
> might be better removed and isolated from society as they are likely
> incapable of wiseing-up. But that's what you Aryan bastards did to the
> Jews, gypsies and homosexuals, wasn't it? Better being a pratt than a
> bigotted Nazi scumbag like you.
>

  As I said, pratt . You need to understand European history leading up to 
the 1930's.
 Naziism and Hitler were results of previous history not in themselves  the 
cause of the horrors of the 2nd world war.

On Aug 22, 6:38 pm, "buddenbrooks"  wrote:
> "John M."  wrote in message
>
> news:1187790484.997580.137260@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > On Aug 20, 6:23 pm, "buddenbrooks"  wrote:
> >> "John M."  wrote in message
>
> >>news:1187615422.503411.183920@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
> >>  >> With opinionated but ignorant people to work on, Germany's 1930s
> >> > National Socialists came within a whisker of world domination. So next
> >> > time wise-up before you speak up.
>
> >> Pratt!
>
> > So you believed everything you read in "Mein Kampf" did you?
>
> > Ignorant people whose opinion is that one race of humans is 'better'
> > than another, and voted for world domination by Aryans as a result,
> > might be better removed and isolated from society as they are likely
> > incapable of wiseing-up. But that's what you Aryan bastards did to the
> > Jews, gypsies and homosexuals, wasn't it? Better being a pratt than a
> > bigotted Nazi scumbag like you.
>
>   As I said, pratt . You need to understand European history leading up to
> the 1930's.
>  Naziism and Hitler were results of previous history not in themselves  the
> cause of the horrors of the 2nd world war.

You forgot the "Seig Heil", scumbag bigot.

"'Mike'" <3d&6d@woolies.com> wrote in message 
news:e9udnZDQptwjjFbbnZ2dnUVZ8t-nnZ2d@bt.com...
> >
>> The Conservative Party are all over the news apologising for getting 
>> their facts wrong.
>>
>
> They are showing the typical pre election 'we are the oh so good party' 
> which all do when in opposition.
>

actually the government has only said that, at the most, six are wrong 
(depends which paper you read) so the point still stands, For some people 
that is going to be a 40 mile drive over bad roads to the nearest hospital

Jim Webster

"John M."  wrote in message
> You forgot the "Seig Heil", scumbag bigot.
>

a nice nazi tactic that, ignore the debate and concentrate on attacking the 
individual

Jim Webster

"buddenbrooks"  wrote in message 
news:fahor5$qb6$1$8302bc10@news.demon.co.uk...

>
>  As I said, pratt . You need to understand European history leading up to 
> the 1930's.
> Naziism and Hitler were results of previous history not in themselves  the 
> cause of the horrors of the 2nd world war.
>

and one of the causes of their success was the fact that they crushed debate

Jim Webster

On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 18:03:12 +0100, "Jim Webster"
 wrote:

>
>"John M."  wrote in message
>> You forgot the "Seig Heil", scumbag bigot.
>>
>
>a nice nazi tactic that, ignore the debate and concentrate on attacking the 
>individual
>

Something you used to do to excess. You claiming that's all in the
past now Jim? Well done.

"Jim Webster"  wrote in message 
news:5j38k4F3sdg8qU2@mid.individual.net...
>
> "buddenbrooks"  wrote in message 
> news:fahor5$qb6$1$8302bc10@news.demon.co.uk...
>
>>
>>  As I said, pratt . You need to understand European history leading up to 
>> the 1930's.
>> Naziism and Hitler were results of previous history not in themselves 
>> the cause of the horrors of the 2nd world war.
>>
>
> and one of the causes of their success was the fact that they crushed 
> debate
>


  We seem to be rapidly entering an era that can lead to another drift into 
totalatarianism.
Both America and the UK are putting into place laws that would prove very 
useful to a party not wishing to put up with opposition.

"buddenbrooks"  wrote in message 
news:fahsgr$8ll$1$830fa7a5@news.demon.co.uk...
>
> "Jim Webster"  wrote in message 
> news:5j38k4F3sdg8qU2@mid.individual.net...
>>
>> "buddenbrooks"  wrote in message 
>> news:fahor5$qb6$1$8302bc10@news.demon.co.uk...
>>
>>>
>>>  As I said, pratt . You need to understand European history leading up 
>>> to the 1930's.
>>> Naziism and Hitler were results of previous history not in themselves 
>>> the cause of the horrors of the 2nd world war.
>>>
>>
>> and one of the causes of their success was the fact that they crushed 
>> debate
>>
>
>
>  We seem to be rapidly entering an era that can lead to another drift into 
> totalatarianism.
> Both America and the UK are putting into place laws that would prove very 
> useful to a party not wishing to put up with opposition.
>

and attitudes are such that those who don't support the prevailing political 
correct stance are easy targets for vilification

Jim Webster

"Jim Webster"  wrote in message 
news:5j38jcF3s85ncU1@mid.individual.net...
>
> "'Mike'" <3d&6d@woolies.com> wrote in message 
> news:e9udnZDQptwjjFbbnZ2dnUVZ8t-nnZ2d@bt.com...
>> >
>>> The Conservative Party are all over the news apologising for getting 
>>> their facts wrong.
>>>
>>
>> They are showing the typical pre election 'we are the oh so good party' 
>> which all do when in opposition.
>>
>
> actually the government has only said that, at the most, six are wrong 
> (depends which paper you read) so the point still stands, For some people 
> that is going to be a 40 mile drive over bad roads to the nearest hospital

Only six?

Oh that's OK then. HM loyal opposition are allowed this percentage of 
disinformation are they?

You will be able to recruit them to the ukba politburo with a record like 
that.

Actually, as usual, you are deliberately exploiting a genuine problem that 
will cause much anguish to decent people. You really are getting to be a 
problem. I'm very surprised that the Country Land and Business Association 
wish to be associated with you. It is a severe indictment of both their 
judgement and that of the Farmers Guardian. Perhaps your venture into 
digging up Cumbria at lottery expense will cause them to have doubts.

The pancreatic cancer unit at Norwich is due to be moved to Cambridge. That 
means some people will die. The surgeon that specialises in Whipples - this 
dangerous and very specialist operation (check Pavarotti) that saves lives 
will, I'm told, not move. As is his right.

The operation is regarded as one of the most difficult in the book and the 
results highly dependant on the individual surgeon.

Regionalising scarce resources is a genuine problem. It has to be done 
right. Over political rural con-men with an ego that surpasses their brains, 
experience or integrity have no place in the discussion.


-- 
Regards
Pat Gardiner
www.go-self-sufficient.com


>
> Jim Webster
>
>

On Wed, 22 Aug 2007 18:46:56 +0100, "Jim Webster"
 wrote:

>
>"buddenbrooks"  wrote in message 
>news:fahsgr$8ll$1$830fa7a5@news.demon.co.uk...
>>
>> "Jim Webster"  wrote in message 
>> news:5j38k4F3sdg8qU2@mid.individual.net...
>>>
>>> "buddenbrooks"  wrote in message 
>>> news:fahor5$qb6$1$8302bc10@news.demon.co.uk...
>>>
>>>>
>>>>  As I said, pratt . You need to understand European history leading up 
>>>> to the 1930's.
>>>> Naziism and Hitler were results of previous history not in themselves 
>>>> the cause of the horrors of the 2nd world war.
>>>>
>>>
>>> and one of the causes of their success was the fact that they crushed 
>>> debate
>>>
>>
>>
>>  We seem to be rapidly entering an era that can lead to another drift into 
>> totalatarianism.
>> Both America and the UK are putting into place laws that would prove very 
>> useful to a party not wishing to put up with opposition.
>>
>
>and attitudes are such that those who don't support the prevailing political 
>correct stance are easy targets for vilification
>

Well we've seen the downside of too much freedom and democracy. I
think a good dictatorship could work wonders.

On Tuesday, in article 
     jim@websterpagebank.freeswerve.co.uk "Jim Webster" wrote:

> "Derek Moody"  wrote in message 
> news:ant210823b49BxcK@strongarm.dereks.pad...
> > In article , Jim Webster
> > <URL:mailto:jim@websterpagebank.freeswerve.co.uk> wrote:
> >
> >> there was work done looking at the provision of public transport in just
> >> such a situation and the problem is that the inhabitants of the village
> >> worked in three different nearby towns, had doctors, dentists etc in
> >> different towns and there was no public transport plan that could provide
> >> people the service they needed.
> >
> > Whereas once they would have worked locally, walked to the doctor (who may
> > have doubled as dentist) and there was still no public transport plan.
> >
> 
> in fact it is getting worse, there is talk about West Cumbria losing its 
> Accident and Emergency provision. For some people that is going to be a 40 
> mile drive over bad roads to the nearest hospital

I suppose if you're a tourist in Eskdale your best bet is Mountain 
Rescue coming over the Wrynose and Hardknott.

-- 
David G. Bell -- SF Fan, Filker, and Punslinger.

On the horizon, a carrier task force of the Salvation Navy was 
turning into the wind, preparing to launch Zeppelins.

""David G. Bell""  wrote in message 
news:20070822.1435.108453snz@zhochaka.org.uk...
> On

>> in fact it is getting worse, there is talk about West Cumbria losing its
>> Accident and Emergency provision. For some people that is going to be a 
>> 40
>> mile drive over bad roads to the nearest hospital
>
> I suppose if you're a tourist in Eskdale your best bet is Mountain
> Rescue coming over the Wrynose and Hardknott.
>

in fact your best bet might be to get your family to dump you on the fell up 
there, mountain rescue would then probably get a helicopter to chopper you 
to the nearest A&E

Jim Webster

On 2007-08-23, Jim Webster  wrote:
>
> ""David G. Bell""  wrote in message 
> news:20070822.1435.108453snz@zhochaka.org.uk...
>> On
>
>>> in fact it is getting worse, there is talk about West Cumbria losing its
>>> Accident and Emergency provision. For some people that is going to be a 
>>> 40
>>> mile drive over bad roads to the nearest hospital
>>
>> I suppose if you're a tourist in Eskdale your best bet is Mountain
>> Rescue coming over the Wrynose and Hardknott.
>>
>
> in fact your best bet might be to get your family to dump you on the fell up 
> there, mountain rescue would then probably get a helicopter to chopper you 
> to the nearest A&E
>
> Jim Webster 

It has been suspected by Health Service people, that parents in Dublin
sometimes present children to Emergency rooms on Friday night with
symptoms that require them to be admitted until the consultant arrives
in Monday morning to deem them OK, so the parents can have a night
out. On the other hand, in our NE health area, Monaghan hospital has
been downgraded so patients from, say, Emyvale, have to be brought to
Droheda at night, and some have died on the way..

-- 
Greymaus
Just Another Grumpy Old man

wrote in message 
news:slrnfcqh0d.9ro.greymaus@maus.org...
> On 2007-08-23, Jim Webster  wrote:
>>
>> ""David G. Bell""  wrote in message
>> news:20070822.1435.108453snz@zhochaka.org.uk...
>>> On
>>
>>>> in fact it is getting worse, there is talk about West Cumbria losing 
>>>> its
>>>> Accident and Emergency provision. For some people that is going to be a
>>>> 40
>>>> mile drive over bad roads to the nearest hospital
>>>
>>> I suppose if you're a tourist in Eskdale your best bet is Mountain
>>> Rescue coming over the Wrynose and Hardknott.
>>>
>>
>> in fact your best bet might be to get your family to dump you on the fell 
>> up
>> there, mountain rescue would then probably get a helicopter to chopper 
>> you
>> to the nearest A&E
>>
>> Jim Webster
>
> It has been suspected by Health Service people, that parents in Dublin
> sometimes present children to Emergency rooms on Friday night with
> symptoms that require them to be admitted until the consultant arrives
> in Monday morning to deem them OK, so the parents can have a night
> out. On the other hand, in our NE health area, Monaghan hospital has
> been downgraded so patients from, say, Emyvale, have to be brought to
> Droheda at night, and some have died on the way..
>

we have the ridiculous situation that given the transport system in some 
cities, two A&E units perhaps ten miles apart can take an hour to travel 
between at the wrong time of day. So strangely enough both rural and inner 
city areas can both be badly hit by this sort of government action

Jim Webster

"Jim Webster"  wrote in message 
news:5j50pnF2l096fU1@mid.individual.net...
>
 > we have the ridiculous situation that given the transport system in some
> cities, two A&E units perhaps ten miles apart can take an hour to travel 
> between at the wrong time of day. So strangely enough both rural and inner 
> city areas can both be badly hit by this sort of government action
>


  A software engineer I used to work for left to work for the local office 
of the county council.
Her job in the traffic planning department was to work out the timings on 
the city taffic lights.

Her Brief was that the lighting sequence should discourage commuters driving 
in the morning and driving out during the evening.
At night if there is only one car, it should be stopped at everylight as it 
passed through the city.

When she had done this she was asked to produce paper evidence to be put 
into the public domain that demonstrated that
the implimentation was optimised to speed traffic through the city.

It would be interesting to see a map of England drawn to a scale based of 
achievable speeds on the road at 9am on a Monday morning.

buddenbrooks wrote:
> "Jim Webster"  wrote in message 
> news:5j50pnF2l096fU1@mid.individual.net...
>  > we have the ridiculous situation that given the transport system in some
>> cities, two A&E units perhaps ten miles apart can take an hour to travel 
>> between at the wrong time of day. So strangely enough both rural and inner 
>> city areas can both be badly hit by this sort of government action
>>
> 
> 
>   A software engineer I used to work for left to work for the local office 
> of the county council.
> Her job in the traffic planning department was to work out the timings on 
> the city taffic lights.
> 
> Her Brief was that the lighting sequence should discourage commuters driving 
> in the morning and driving out during the evening.
> At night if there is only one car, it should be stopped at everylight as it 
> passed through the city.
> 
> When she had done this she was asked to produce paper evidence to be put 
> into the public domain that demonstrated that
> the implimentation was optimised to speed traffic through the city.

A Noo Labor council?  :-)


-- 
Old Codger
e-mail use reply to field

What matters in politics is not what happens, but what you can make 
people believe has happened. [Janet Daley 27/8/2003]

"Old Codger"  wrote in message 
news:46cdd09e$0$11435$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk...
> buddenbrooks wrote:
 .
>
> A Noo Labor council?  :-)
>

 They tend to be lib/con around here. But there seems to be a stong anti-car 
element to the councils.

 The small town I live in has free car parking which always has free spaces. 
The county council have told the town council
that free car parks are not concistant with county planning and the parks 
must charge.  Free parking encourages car use.

buddenbrooks wrote:
> "Old Codger"  wrote in message 
> news:46cdd09e$0$11435$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk...
>> buddenbrooks wrote:
>  .
>> A Noo Labor council?  :-)
>>
> 
>  They tend to be lib/con around here. But there seems to be a stong anti-car 
> element to the councils.

It was the spin I was referring to, not the anti car attitude.  However, 
it appears that trustworthy politicians of any creed are as rare as hens 
teeth so perhaps I should not have automatically assumed Noo Labor.

-- 
Old Codger
e-mail use reply to field

What matters in politics is not what happens, but what you can make 
people believe has happened. [Janet Daley 27/8/2003]

On Aug 22, 7:03 pm, "Jim Webster"
 wrote:
> "John M."  wrote in message
> > You forgot the "Seig Heil", scumbag bigot.
>
> a nice nazi tactic that, ignore the debate and concentrate on attacking the
> individual

What debate. He offered a single word in reply to my reasonable post,
and by doing so revealed himself to be a xenophobe. I merely called a
spade a spade.

"John M."  wrote in message 
news:1187963396.189753.51900@r23g2000prd.googlegroups.com...
> On Aug 22, 7:03 pm, "Jim Webster"
>  wrote:
>> "John M."  wrote in message
>> > You forgot the "Seig Heil", scumbag bigot.
>>
>> a nice nazi tactic that, ignore the debate and concentrate on attacking 
>> the
>> individual
>
> What debate. He offered a single word in reply to my reasonable post,
> and by doing so revealed himself to be a xenophobe. I merely called a
> spade a spade.
>
 you said

With opinionated but ignorant people to work on, Germany's 1930s
  National Socialists came within a whisker of world domination. So next
  time wise-up before you speak up.


and your subsequent comments have proven that you are absolutely right, you 
would be wise to heed your advice

Jim Webster

On Aug 24, 3:53 pm, "Jim Webster"
 wrote:
> "John M."  wrote in message
>
> news:1187963396.189753.51900@r23g2000prd.googlegroups.com...> On Aug 22, 7:03 pm, "Jim Webster"
> >  wrote:
> >> "John M."  wrote in message
> >> > You forgot the "Seig Heil", scumbag bigot.
>
> >> a nice nazi tactic that, ignore the debate and concentrate on attacking
> >> the
> >> individual
>
> > What debate. He offered a single word in reply to my reasonable post,
> > and by doing so revealed himself to be a xenophobe. I merely called a
> > spade a spade.
>
>  you said
>
> With opinionated but ignorant people to work on, Germany's 1930s
>   National Socialists came within a whisker of world domination. So next
>   time wise-up before you speak up.
>
> and your subsequent comments have proven that you are absolutely right, you
> would be wise to heed your advice

Are you saying that 1930's Germans were not being opinionated when
they regarded Jews, gypsies, homosexuals as sub-human? Do you think
this opinion was based on sound research and deep knowledge about
these groups of people? Are you saying that WW2 was always in the
allies pocket and there were never any doubts about who would win?

"John M."  wrote in message 
news:1187964090.757708.57530@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
> On Aug 24, 3:53 pm, "Jim Webster"
>  wrote:
>> "John M."  wrote in message
>>
>> news:1187963396.189753.51900@r23g2000prd.googlegroups.com...> On Aug 22, 
>> 7:03 pm, "Jim Webster"
>> >  wrote:
>> >> "John M."  wrote in message
>> >> > You forgot the "Seig Heil", scumbag bigot.
>>
>> >> a nice nazi tactic that, ignore the debate and concentrate on 
>> >> attacking
>> >> the
>> >> individual
>>
>> > What debate. He offered a single word in reply to my reasonable post,
>> > and by doing so revealed himself to be a xenophobe. I merely called a
>> > spade a spade.
>>
>>  you said
>>
>> With opinionated but ignorant people to work on, Germany's 1930s
>>   National Socialists came within a whisker of world domination. So next
>>   time wise-up before you speak up.
>>
>> and your subsequent comments have proven that you are absolutely right, 
>> you
>> would be wise to heed your advice
>
> Are you saying that 1930's Germans were not being opinionated when
> they regarded Jews, gypsies, homosexuals as sub-human? Do you think
> this opinion was based on sound research and deep knowledge about
> these groups of people? Are you saying that WW2 was always in the
> allies pocket and there were never any doubts about who would win?
>

you are right, I'm not saying that

Jim Webster

"John M."  wrote in message 
news:1187964090.757708.57530@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com...

> Are you saying that WW2 was always in the
> allies pocket and there were never any doubts about who would win?
>
>

Well there wasn't was there?

Mike


-- 
The Royal Naval Electrical Branch Association.
'THE' Association if you served in the Electrical Branch of the Royal Navy
Reunion Bournemouth August/September 2007 FULL.  WAIT LIST OPERATING
www.rneba.org.uk to find your ex-Greenie mess mates
www.iowtours.com for all ex-Service Reunions. More being added daily
"Navy Days" Portsmouth 25th - 27th July 2008. RN Shipmates will have a Stand

"'Mike'" <3d&6d@woolies.com> wrote in message 
news:iYKdnV6cBcxQd1PbnZ2dnUVZ8tWnnZ2d@bt.com...
>
 >> Are you saying that WW2 was always in the
>> allies pocket and there were never any doubts about who would win?
>>
>>
>
> Well there wasn't was there?
>

  Albert Speer in his autobiography writes that Hitler believed Germany 
would loose the war as soon as he heard that
Churchill had been included in the British War Cabinate in 1939.  Until that 
point he had believed Britain's declaration of war had been a bluff.

"Old Codger"  wrote in message 
news:46ce0254$0$13923$fa0fcedb@news.zen.co.uk...
> buddenbrooks wrote:

> It was the spin I was referring to,

   I saw it as a cynical total disregard of the truth.

   To quote another newsgroup I follow "All polititions should be boiled in 
dog shit", which coming from a group discussing technical details of 
satelite TV rather than politics indicates the low esteame that polititions 
have sunk to.

buddenbrooks wrote:
> "Old Codger"  wrote in message 
> news:46ce0254$0$13923$fa0fcedb@news.zen.co.uk...
>> buddenbrooks wrote:
> 
>> It was the spin I was referring to,
> 
>    I saw it as a cynical total disregard of the truth.

I was being polite, and giving them an undeserved benefit of the doubt.

>    To quote another newsgroup I follow "All polititions should be boiled in 
> dog shit", which coming from a group discussing technical details of 
> satelite TV rather than politics indicates the low esteame that polititions 
> have sunk to. 

Indeed.

-- 
Old Codger
e-mail use reply to field

What matters in politics is not what happens, but what you can make 
people believe has happened. [Janet Daley 27/8/2003]

"Old Codger"  wrote in message 
news:46cf5c35$0$11441$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk...
> buddenbrooks wrote:
>> "Old Codger"  wrote in message 
>> news:46ce0254$0$13923$fa0fcedb@news.zen.co.uk...
>>> buddenbrooks wrote:
>>
>>> It was the spin I was referring to,
>>
>>    I saw it as a cynical total disregard of the truth.
>
> I was being polite, and giving them an undeserved benefit of the doubt.
>

that is a mistake you rarely make ;-))

Jim Webster

buddenbrooks  wrote:

> "Old Codger"  wrote in message 
> news:46cdd09e$0$11435$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk...
> > buddenbrooks wrote:
>  .
> >
> > A Noo Labor council?  :-)
> >
> 
>  They tend to be lib/con around here. But there seems to be a stong anti-car
> element to the councils.
> 
>  The small town I live in has free car parking which always has free spaces.
> The county council have told the town council
> that free car parks are not concistant with county planning and the parks
> must charge.  Free parking encourages car use. 

Lib/Con here as well, with Cons only just edging out Lib. The Libs have
had a consistent anti-car policy for over a decade. When it became
obvious that despite their closing of parts of the city to cars, removal
of on-street parking to anyone except "residents" which now results in
90% of the parkign bays being empty through the workigng day, and
raising of city centre car park prices to £astronomical that pollution
and congestion were increasing, the liars removed the pollution
monitoring equipment.

What was most embarassing to them was that the figures showed that as
use of buses increased pollution was increasing rapidly.

On Aug 24, 4:20 pm, "Jim Webster"
 wrote:
> "John M."  wrote in message
>
> news:1187964090.757708.57530@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
> > On Aug 24, 3:53 pm, "Jim Webster"
> >  wrote:
> >> "John M."  wrote in message
>
> >>news:1187963396.189753.51900@r23g2000prd.googlegroups.com...> On Aug 22,
> >> 7:03 pm, "Jim Webster"
> >> >  wrote:
> >> >> "John M."  wrote in message
> >> >> > You forgot the "Seig Heil", scumbag bigot.
>
> >> >> a nice nazi tactic that, ignore the debate and concentrate on
> >> >> attacking
> >> >> the
> >> >> individual
>
> >> > What debate. He offered a single word in reply to my reasonable post,
> >> > and by doing so revealed himself to be a xenophobe. I merely called a
> >> > spade a spade.
>
> >>  you said
>
> >> With opinionated but ignorant people to work on, Germany's 1930s
> >>   National Socialists came within a whisker of world domination. So next
> >>   time wise-up before you speak up.
>
> >> and your subsequent comments have proven that you are absolutely right,
> >> you
> >> would be wise to heed your advice
>
> > Are you saying that 1930's Germans were not being opinionated when
> > they regarded Jews, gypsies, homosexuals as sub-human? Do you think
> > this opinion was based on sound research and deep knowledge about
> > these groups of people? Are you saying that WW2 was always in the
> > allies pocket and there were never any doubts about who would win?
>
> you are right, I'm not saying that

An answer that says nothing. Suggest you change your name to Pete if
you wish to employ that kind of tactic.

"John M."  wrote in message 
news:1188049287.462978.52950@q4g2000prc.googlegroups.com...

>> > Are you saying that 1930's Germans were not being opinionated when
>> > they regarded Jews, gypsies, homosexuals as sub-human? Do you think
>> > this opinion was based on sound research and deep knowledge about
>> > these groups of people? Are you saying that WW2 was always in the
>> > allies pocket and there were never any doubts about who would win?
>>
>> you are right, I'm not saying that
>
> An answer that says nothing.

well if you ask 57 word 'have you stopped beating your wife questions' don't 
expect people to take you seriously.

Jim Webster

Jim Webster wrote:
> "Old Codger"  wrote in message 
> news:46cf5c35$0$11441$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk...
>> buddenbrooks wrote:
>>> "Old Codger"  wrote in message 
>>> news:46ce0254$0$13923$fa0fcedb@news.zen.co.uk...
>>>> buddenbrooks wrote:
>>>> It was the spin I was referring to,
>>>    I saw it as a cynical total disregard of the truth.
>> I was being polite, and giving them an undeserved benefit of the doubt.
>>
> 
> that is a mistake you rarely make ;-))

Indeed!  :-)


-- 
Old Codger
e-mail use reply to field

What matters in politics is not what happens, but what you can make 
people believe has happened. [Janet Daley 27/8/2003]

Steve Firth wrote:
> buddenbrooks  wrote:
> 
>> "Old Codger"  wrote in message 
>> news:46cdd09e$0$11435$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk...
>>> buddenbrooks wrote:
>>  .
>>> A Noo Labor council?  :-)
>>>
>>  They tend to be lib/con around here. But there seems to be a stong anti-car
>> element to the councils.
>>
>>  The small town I live in has free car parking which always has free spaces.
>> The county council have told the town council
>> that free car parks are not concistant with county planning and the parks
>> must charge.  Free parking encourages car use. 
> 
> Lib/Con here as well, with Cons only just edging out Lib. The Libs have
> had a consistent anti-car policy for over a decade. When it became
> obvious that despite their closing of parts of the city to cars, removal
> of on-street parking to anyone except "residents" which now results in
> 90% of the parkign bays being empty through the workigng day, and
> raising of city centre car park prices to £astronomical that pollution
> and congestion were increasing, the liars removed the pollution
> monitoring equipment.
> 
> What was most embarassing to them was that the figures showed that as
> use of buses increased pollution was increasing rapidly.

Our council is traditionally Tory, although the Liberals did run it for 
a few years.  In my view, competence has dropped significantly in the 
last ten to fifteen years.  Rubbish collection is reasonably good and 
the introduction of Park and Ride, about a year ago, is superb.  I can 
be walking in the centre of town within half an hour of leaving home. 
One can generally drive into town quicker but by the time one has parked 
and walked to the centre, much more than half an hour has gone.  There 
were plans for three parks, upped to five and now on hold for lack of 
money.  If they don't hurry and build at least one more park the current 
facility will be overwhelmed by commuters once again.

-- 
Old Codger
e-mail use reply to field

What matters in politics is not what happens, but what you can make 
people believe has happened. [Janet Daley 27/8/2003]

On Aug 25, 4:34 pm, "Jim Webster"
 wrote:
> "John M."  wrote in message
>
> news:1188049287.462978.52950@q4g2000prc.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> > Are you saying that 1930's Germans were not being opinionated when
> >> > they regarded Jews, gypsies, homosexuals as sub-human? Do you think
> >> > this opinion was based on sound research and deep knowledge about
> >> > these groups of people? Are you saying that WW2 was always in the
> >> > allies pocket and there were never any doubts about who would win?
>
> >> you are right, I'm not saying that
>
> > An answer that says nothing. Suggest you change your name to Pete if
> > you wish to employ that kind of tactic.

>
> well if you ask 57 word 'have you stopped beating your wife questions' don't
> expect people to take you seriously.

So which name will you change to? Pete or Gloria ;-)

"John M."  wrote in message 
news:1188128948.994146.105970@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> On Aug 25, 4:34 pm, "Jim Webster"
>  wrote:
>> "John M."  wrote in message
>>
>> news:1188049287.462978.52950@q4g2000prc.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> >> > Are you saying that 1930's Germans were not being opinionated when
>> >> > they regarded Jews, gypsies, homosexuals as sub-human? Do you think
>> >> > this opinion was based on sound research and deep knowledge about
>> >> > these groups of people? Are you saying that WW2 was always in the
>> >> > allies pocket and there were never any doubts about who would win?
>>
>> >> you are right, I'm not saying that
>>
>> > An answer that says nothing. Suggest you change your name to Pete if
>> > you wish to employ that kind of tactic.
>
>>
>> well if you ask 57 word 'have you stopped beating your wife questions' 
>> don't
>> expect people to take you seriously.
>
> So which name will you change to? Pete or Gloria ;-)

pete has scores of ids, he can spare more than a couple

Jim Webster

>
>

On Aug 26, 2:01 pm, "Jim Webster"
 wrote:
> "John M."  wrote in message
>
> news:1188128948.994146.105970@o80g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On Aug 25, 4:34 pm, "Jim Webster"
> >  wrote:
> >> "John M."  wrote in message
>
> >>news:1188049287.462978.52950@q4g2000prc.googlegroups.com...
>
> >> >> > Are you saying that 1930's Germans were not being opinionated when
> >> >> > they regarded Jews, gypsies, homosexuals as sub-human? Do you think
> >> >> > this opinion was based on sound research and deep knowledge about
> >> >> > these groups of people? Are you saying that WW2 was always in the
> >> >> > allies pocket and there were never any doubts about who would win?
>
> >> >> you are right, I'm not saying that
>
> >> > An answer that says nothing. Suggest you change your name to Pete if
> >> > you wish to employ that kind of tactic.
>
> >> well if you ask 57 word 'have you stopped beating your wife questions'
> >> don't
> >> expect people to take you seriously.
>
> > So which name will you change to? Pete or Gloria ;-)
>
> pete has scores of ids, he can spare more than a couple
>
Do you remember when he was Bishop Mbongo, Judge Dred, Ivanna
Humpalot....? If so, that really ages you ;-))

"John M."  wrote in message

>>
>> pete has scores of ids, he can spare more than a couple
>>
> Do you remember when he was Bishop Mbongo, Judge Dred, Ivanna
> Humpalot....? If so, that really ages you ;-))
>

alas yes, all those names, he was George for a while as well

Jim Webster

"Jim Webster"  wrote in message 
news:5jgbiuF3ue547U1@mid.individual.net...
>
> "John M."  wrote in message
>
>>>
>>> pete has scores of ids, he can spare more than a couple
>>>
>> Do you remember when he was Bishop Mbongo, Judge Dred, Ivanna
>> Humpalot....? If so, that really ages you ;-))
>>
>
> alas yes, all those names, he was George for a while as well
>

Didn't 'Pete' sometimes post under the name 'Jim Webster', too? Hence you 
could stick to your own name and still be posting as 'Pete'. A cunning and 
economical plan, what?

"BAC"  wrote in message 
news:1188243618.62056.0@demeter.uk.clara.net...

>
> Didn't 'Pete' sometimes post under the name 'Jim Webster', too? Hence you 
> could stick to your own name and still be posting as 'Pete'. A cunning and 
> economical plan, what?

yep pete posts under anyones name but his own. Sad that someone should be so 
afraid to stands up for what he believes in

Jim Webster

buddenbrooks  wrote:

> We seem to be rapidly entering an era that can lead to another drift into
> totalatarianism.

"Seem to be"? Good heavens have you been asleep? The entire history of
the Blair (now Brown) government has been the ruthless suppression of
free speech and the persecution of muslims.

> Both America and the UK are putting into place laws that would prove very
> useful to a party not wishing to put up with opposition.

"Putting into place"?

The US and UK have enacted draconian laws that remove the right to free
speech and permit detention without trial on a flimsy pretext.