I am 62 years old. I am a right hand person.

Around 9 months ago, my left middle finger¡¯s middle and bottom joints 
around the knuckle areas, started to be painful, particularly in the 
morning. When I tried to bend my middle finger, I feel the joint movement 
not smooth, kind of snap and bounce like a toggle switch.



I am unable to fold and curl my middle finger back to touch my palm, like 
trying to hold a fist. When I put my finger in hot water, the joint movement 
is smoother and less painful. I am taking Glucosamine Hydrochloride (1500mg) 
plug MSN (methylsulfonylmethane 1500mg) daily, but showing no help.



My doctor has X-ray and blood test for Rheumatoid Arthritis. Everything 
tested normal.



I have tried and see different physicians, physical therapist, orthopedic 
specialists; none offer much explanation or help. Except one athletic person 
suggested I have the ¡°soft bone¡± problem. This soft bone is suppose to be 
part of the ligament and cartilage tightening problem. But he did not offer 
much solution for my problem, except that I should have physical therapy 
exercise.



After 8 months of daily left middle finger pains, now my left thumb starts 
having the same kind of pain too.

Can anyone out there offer any suggestions and recommendations? Thank you so 
much.

"A M Jackson"  wrote in message 
news:K03Rj.3630$26.1749@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net...
>I am 62 years old. I am a right hand person.
>
> Around 9 months ago, my left middle finger¡¯s middle and bottom joints 
> around the knuckle areas, started to be painful, particularly in the 
> morning. When I tried to bend my middle finger, I feel the joint movement 
> not smooth, kind of snap and bounce like a toggle switch.
>
>
>
> I am unable to fold and curl my middle finger back to touch my palm, like 
> trying to hold a fist. When I put my finger in hot water, the joint 
> movement is smoother and less painful. I am taking Glucosamine 
> Hydrochloride (1500mg) plug MSN (methylsulfonylmethane 1500mg) daily, but 
> showing no help.
>
>
>
> My doctor has X-ray and blood test for Rheumatoid Arthritis. Everything 
> tested normal.
>
>
>
> I have tried and see different physicians, physical therapist, orthopedic 
> specialists; none offer much explanation or help. Except one athletic 
> person suggested I have the ¡°soft bone¡± problem. This soft bone is 
> suppose to be part of the ligament and cartilage tightening problem. But 
> he did not offer much solution for my problem, except that I should have 
> physical therapy exercise.
>
>
>
> After 8 months of daily left middle finger pains, now my left thumb 
> starts having the same kind of pain too.
>
> Can anyone out there offer any suggestions and recommendations? Thank you 
> so much.
>

Have you been tested for gout?

Jo

A M, I have joint pain in my fingers and thumb also and I don't have 
rheumatoid arthritis,.  I have osteoarthritis, and you also might have it. 
You need to see a rheumatologist who speciallizes in the different kinds of 
arthritis and knows so much more about it than any other kind of doctor. 
Please get one of your doctors to refer you to a rheumatologist and let 
him/her check it out for you.
Gwen


"Jo Firey"  wrote in message 
news:SK3Rj.661$To6.534@newssvr21.news.prodigy.net...

"A M Jackson"  wrote in message
news:K03Rj.3630$26.1749@newssvr23.news.prodigy.net...
>I am 62 years old. I am a right hand person.
>
> Around 9 months ago, my left middle finger¡¯s middle and bottom joints
> around the knuckle areas, started to be painful, particularly in the
> morning. When I tried to bend my middle finger, I feel the joint movement
> not smooth, kind of snap and bounce like a toggle switch.
>
>
>
> I am unable to fold and curl my middle finger back to touch my palm, like
> trying to hold a fist. When I put my finger in hot water, the joint
> movement is smoother and less painful. I am taking Glucosamine
> Hydrochloride (1500mg) plug MSN (methylsulfonylmethane 1500mg) daily, but
> showing no help.
>
>
>
> My doctor has X-ray and blood test for Rheumatoid Arthritis. Everything
> tested normal.
>
>
>
> I have tried and see different physicians, physical therapist, orthopedic
> specialists; none offer much explanation or help. Except one athletic
> person suggested I have the ¡°soft bone¡± problem. This soft bone is
> suppose to be part of the ligament and cartilage tightening problem. But
> he did not offer much solution for my problem, except that I should have
> physical therapy exercise.
>
>
>
> After 8 months of daily left middle finger pains, now my left thumb
> starts having the same kind of pain too.
>
> Can anyone out there offer any suggestions and recommendations? Thank you
> so much.
>

Have you been tested for gout?

Jo

wrote in message 
news:e95a$4814daf2$45491df5$1432@KNOLOGY.NET...
>A M, I have joint pain in my fingers and thumb also and I don't have
> rheumatoid arthritis,.  I have osteoarthritis, and you also might have it.
> You need to see a rheumatologist who speciallizes in the different kinds 
> of
> arthritis and knows so much more about it than any other kind of doctor.
> Please get one of your doctors to refer you to a rheumatologist and let
> him/her check it out for you.
> Gwen
>
Thanks Gwen.
I am in Kaiser healthcare in Silicon Valley.
Does anyone here know of any good specialist for this type?

"A M Jackson"  writes:
> wrote...
>>A M, I have joint pain in my fingers and thumb also and I don't have
>> rheumatoid arthritis,.  I have osteoarthritis, and you also might have it.
>> You need to see a rheumatologist who speciallizes in the different kinds 
>> of
>> arthritis and knows so much more about it than any other kind of doctor.
>> Please get one of your doctors to refer you to a rheumatologist and let
>> him/her check it out for you.
>> Gwen
>>
>Thanks Gwen.
>I am in Kaiser healthcare in Silicon Valley.
>Does anyone here know of any good specialist for this type? 
>

-- 
Robin Fairbairns, Cambridge

> "Jo Firey"  wrote in message
>>
>
> Have you been tested for gout?
>
> Jo
>
>
>
Jo, I have done a little research. Wiki: Gout is characterized by
excruciating, sudden, unexpected, burning pain, as well as swelling,
redness, warmness, and stiffness in the affected joint. Low-grade fever may
also be present. The patient usually suffers from two sources of pain. The
crystals inside the joint cause intense pain whenever the affected area is
moved. The inflammation of the tissues around the joint also causes the skin
to be swollen, tender and sore if it is even slightly touched. For example,
a blanket or even the lightest sheet draping over the affected area could
cause extreme pain Gout usually attacks the big toe (approximately 75
percent of first attacks); however, it also can affect other joints such as
the ankle, heel,
instep, knee, wrist, elbow, fingers, and spine. In some cases, the condition
may appear in the joints of small toes that have become immobile due to
impact injury earlier in life, causing poor blood circulation that leads to
gout.

Patients with longstanding hyperuricemia can have uric acid crystal deposits
called tophi (singular: tophus) in other tissues such as the helix of the
ear. Elevated levels of uric acid in the urine can lead to uric acid
crystals precipitating in the kidneys or bladder, forming uric acid kidney
stones.

I do not think I have gout problem. But is there simple test I can do
myself? Or, I have to ask my doctor to perform this at lab? Thank you.

"A M Jackson"  wrote in message 
news:JJoRj.1012$1b7.1000@newssvr13.news.prodigy.net...
>> "Jo Firey"  wrote in message
>>>
>>
>> Have you been tested for gout?
>>
>> Jo
>>
>>
>>
> Jo, I have done a little research. Wiki: Gout is characterized by
> excruciating, sudden, unexpected, burning pain, as well as swelling,
> redness, warmness, and stiffness in the affected joint. Low-grade fever 
> may
> also be present. The patient usually suffers from two sources of pain. 
> The
> crystals inside the joint cause intense pain whenever the affected area 
> is
> moved. The inflammation of the tissues around the joint also causes the 
> skin
> to be swollen, tender and sore if it is even slightly touched. For 
> example,
> a blanket or even the lightest sheet draping over the affected area could
> cause extreme pain Gout usually attacks the big toe (approximately 75
> percent of first attacks); however, it also can affect other joints such 
> as
> the ankle, heel,
> instep, knee, wrist, elbow, fingers, and spine. In some cases, the 
> condition
> may appear in the joints of small toes that have become immobile due to
> impact injury earlier in life, causing poor blood circulation that leads 
> to
> gout.
>
> Patients with longstanding hyperuricemia can have uric acid crystal 
> deposits
> called tophi (singular: tophus) in other tissues such as the helix of the
> ear. Elevated levels of uric acid in the urine can lead to uric acid
> crystals precipitating in the kidneys or bladder, forming uric acid 
> kidney
> stones.
>
> I do not think I have gout problem. But is there simple test I can do
> myself? Or, I have to ask my doctor to perform this at lab? Thank you.
>

Sorry, but if you prefer Wiki and self diagnosis to reliable medical advice 
you are on your own so to speak.

Doctors can do lab tests to diagnosis high blood levels of uric acid.  And 
there are medications to reduce it.

I had intermittent problems with 'hot' or sausage finger and toe joints. 
They haven't recurred since I've been on medication to treat the acid 
levels.  Which by the way were high but not off the charts.  RD didn't 
think they were the problem.  Ortho guy said even high normal levels can 
cause digits to flare.

Jo

amj

one can test sero negative, have a reasonable ed rate, and still have
any one of several forms of arthritis - including osteo, and even rheum
type 'can' be sero neg.

nothing showing on the xray is good - for now - but for anyone with
arthritis, not indicative of anything other than damage hasn't
progressed 'yet' to the point of being readable on the plate 

you do not mention if you have a history of 'hard use' of hands perhaps
in heavy physical work history? any family indication of diabetes? any
fairly rapid weight gain or loss?

you describe morning stiffness, and tendon/ligament contracture - while
this is most likely a form of arthritis, the above 'could' be a
causative agent.

i wouldn't settle for a 'wait and see' from my doc - if it is arthritis,
or diabetes, the sooner addressed the better. 

my hands  [total involvement] respond very much as yours are - i'm a
sero neg still's disease auto immune and my blood tests don't reflect my
condition either...

all i can recc. is that you take a more active stance and insist on
further work to diagnose

A M Jackson wrote:
> 
> I am 62 years old. I am a right hand person.
> 
> Around 9 months ago, my left middle finger¡¯s middle and bottom joints
> around the knuckle areas, started to be painful, particularly in the
> morning. When I tried to bend my middle finger, I feel the joint movement
> not smooth, kind of snap and bounce like a toggle switch.
> 
> I am unable to fold and curl my middle finger back to touch my palm, like
> trying to hold a fist. When I put my finger in hot water, the joint movement
> is smoother and less painful. I am taking Glucosamine Hydrochloride (1500mg)
> plug MSN (methylsulfonylmethane 1500mg) daily, but showing no help.
> 
> My doctor has X-ray and blood test for Rheumatoid Arthritis. Everything
> tested normal.
> 
> I have tried and see different physicians, physical therapist, orthopedic
> specialists; none offer much explanation or help. Except one athletic person
> suggested I have the ¡°soft bone¡± problem. This soft bone is suppose to be
> part of the ligament and cartilage tightening problem. But he did not offer
> much solution for my problem, except that I should have physical therapy
> exercise.
> 
> After 8 months of daily left middle finger pains, now my left thumb starts
> having the same kind of pain too.
> 
> Can anyone out there offer any suggestions and recommendations? Thank you so
> much.

It seems to me I heard somewhere that A M Jackson wrote in article
<JJoRj.1012$1b7.1000@newssvr13.news.prodigy.net>:

>> "Jo Firey"  wrote in message

>> Have you been tested for gout?
>
>Jo, I have done a little research. Wiki: Gout is characterized by
>excruciating, sudden, unexpected, burning pain, as well as swelling,
>redness, warmness, and stiffness in the affected joint. Low-grade fever may
>also be present. The patient usually suffers from two sources of pain. The
>crystals inside the joint cause intense pain whenever the affected area is
>moved. The inflammation of the tissues around the joint also causes the skin
>to be swollen, tender and sore if it is even slightly touched. For example,
>a blanket or even the lightest sheet draping over the affected area could
>cause extreme pain Gout usually attacks the big toe (approximately 75
>percent of first attacks); however, it also can affect other joints such as
>the ankle, heel,
>instep, knee, wrist, elbow, fingers, and spine. In some cases, the condition
>may appear in the joints of small toes that have become immobile due to
>impact injury earlier in life, causing poor blood circulation that leads to
>gout.
>
[. . .]

>I do not think I have gout problem. But is there simple test I can do
>myself? Or, I have to ask my doctor to perform this at lab? Thank you.

I don't recall if you've mentioned this, but do you have bumps or nodules in the
palm of your hand near the fingers that have the pain?  My assumption is that
you would have mentioned it if you did, but this is just to rule out the
possibility of Dupuytren's contracture, the effects of which range from benign
to quite painful.  In my case I have fairly large nodules but very little pain
(< 1 )  and no loss of hand function.

If you do have nodules, you can find more about Dupuytrens at
http://www.mayoclinic.com/health/dupuytrens-contracture/DS00732
-- 
Don Kirkman

A M Jackson wrote:
>> "Jo Firey"  wrote in message
>>>
>>
>> Have you been tested for gout?
>>
>> Jo
>>
>>
>>
> Jo, I have done a little research. Wiki: Gout is characterized by
> excruciating, sudden, unexpected, burning pain, as well as swelling,
> redness, warmness, and stiffness in the affected joint. Low-grade fever may
> also be present. The patient usually suffers from two sources of pain. The
> crystals inside the joint cause intense pain whenever the affected area is
> moved. The inflammation of the tissues around the joint also causes the 
> skin
> to be swollen, tender and sore if it is even slightly touched. For example,
> a blanket or even the lightest sheet draping over the affected area could
> cause extreme pain Gout usually attacks the big toe (approximately 75
> percent of first attacks); however, it also can affect other joints such as
> the ankle, heel,
> instep, knee, wrist, elbow, fingers, and spine. In some cases, the 
> condition
> may appear in the joints of small toes that have become immobile due to
> impact injury earlier in life, causing poor blood circulation that leads to
> gout.
> 
> Patients with longstanding hyperuricemia can have uric acid crystal 
> deposits
> called tophi (singular: tophus) in other tissues such as the helix of the
> ear. Elevated levels of uric acid in the urine can lead to uric acid
> crystals precipitating in the kidneys or bladder, forming uric acid kidney
> stones.
> 
> I do not think I have gout problem. But is there simple test I can do
> myself? Or, I have to ask my doctor to perform this at lab? Thank you.
> 
It's a blood test for uric acid  - the compound that collects in the 
joints and
crystallizes.
   	
The uric acid test is used to learn whether the body might be breaking 
down cells too quickly or not getting rid of uric acid quickly enough.

The test also is used to monitor levels of uric acid when a patient has 
had chemotherapy or radiation treatments.

You might also want to look up pseudogout, which is similar to gout, but is 
caused by calcium crystals.  My RD has me on colchicine, but it is not a 
fast acting med.  I may have it in my wrists.

-- 
Navy
Take out the FISH to email me.
"A M Jackson"  wrote in message 
news:JJoRj.1012$1b7.1000@newssvr13.news.prodigy.net...
>> "Jo Firey"  wrote in message
>>>
>>
>> Have you been tested for gout?
>>
>> Jo
>>
>>
>>
> Jo, I have done a little research. Wiki: Gout is characterized by
> excruciating, sudden, unexpected, burning pain, as well as swelling,
> redness, warmness, and stiffness in the affected joint. Low-grade fever 
> may
> also be present. The patient usually suffers from two sources of pain. The
> crystals inside the joint cause intense pain whenever the affected area is
> moved. The inflammation of the tissues around the joint also causes the 
> skin
> to be swollen, tender and sore if it is even slightly touched. For 
> example,
> a blanket or even the lightest sheet draping over the affected area could
> cause extreme pain Gout usually attacks the big toe (approximately 75
> percent of first attacks); however, it also can affect other joints such 
> as
> the ankle, heel,
> instep, knee, wrist, elbow, fingers, and spine. In some cases, the 
> condition
> may appear in the joints of small toes that have become immobile due to
> impact injury earlier in life, causing poor blood circulation that leads 
> to
> gout.
>
> Patients with longstanding hyperuricemia can have uric acid crystal 
> deposits
> called tophi (singular: tophus) in other tissues such as the helix of the
> ear. Elevated levels of uric acid in the urine can lead to uric acid
> crystals precipitating in the kidneys or bladder, forming uric acid kidney
> stones.
>
> I do not think I have gout problem. But is there simple test I can do
> myself? Or, I have to ask my doctor to perform this at lab? Thank you.
>

"Jo Firey"  wrote in message
news:7dpRj.1026$1b7.27@newssvr13.news.prodigy.net...
>
>>>
>
> Sorry, but if you prefer Wiki and self diagnosis to reliable medical
> advice you are on your own so to speak.
>
> Doctors can do lab tests to diagnosis high blood levels of uric acid.  And
> there are medications to reduce it.
>
> I had intermittent problems with 'hot' or sausage finger and toe joints.
> They haven't recurred since I've been on medication to treat the acid
> levels.  Which by the way were high but not off the charts.  RD didn't
> think they were the problem.  Ortho guy said even high normal levels can
> cause digits to flare.
>
> Jo
>
Jo, I wish I have good healthcare providers willing to perform whatever you
wish. Kaiser primary care physicans does not provide much care, and do least 
for insured. That is why I do research myself and have to sure what to ask.

I do not have any swelling, bumps, nodules on palms or large joints. I had
blood test several time and found no arthristis.

wrote in message
news:e95a$4814daf2$45491df5$1432@KNOLOGY.NET...
>A M, I have joint pain in my fingers and thumb also and I don't have
> rheumatoid arthritis,.  I have osteoarthritis, and you also might have it.
> You need to see a rheumatologist who speciallizes in the different kinds
> of
> arthritis and knows so much more about it than any other kind of doctor.
> Please get one of your doctors to refer you to a rheumatologist and let
> him/her check it out for you.
> Gwen
>
>

Dear Gwen, I have read up more about osteoarthritis.
Am I correct that there is no medication to treat and recover from this
problem?
Most of the medications and treatments are basically pain relief.

Afraid you're right, A M.  But getting pain relief is really great!  You can 
also have joint replacements when it gets too bad to handle otherwise.  I've 
had a hip replacement, and basal joint replacement on my left hand. I would 
not hesitate to get any joint replacement I needed.  Many people have to 
have knee replacements.  When the joint is bone on bone, a replacement is 
really the only way to go for relief.  It is really important for you to see 
a rheumatologist (RD).
Gwen


"A M Jackson"  wrote in message 
news:SRLRj.12510$GE1.6355@nlpi061.nbdc.sbc.com...
 wrote in message
news:e95a$4814daf2$45491df5$1432@KNOLOGY.NET...
>A M, I have joint pain in my fingers and thumb also and I don't have
> rheumatoid arthritis,.  I have osteoarthritis, and you also might have it.
> You need to see a rheumatologist who speciallizes in the different kinds
> of
> arthritis and knows so much more about it than any other kind of doctor.
> Please get one of your doctors to refer you to a rheumatologist and let
> him/her check it out for you.
> Gwen
>
>

Dear Gwen, I have read up more about osteoarthritis.
Am I correct that there is no medication to treat and recover from this
problem?
Most of the medications and treatments are basically pain relief.

On Apr 27, 12:49 pm, "A M Jackson" 

> After 8 months of daily left middle finger pains, now my left thumb starts> having the same kind of pain too.
>
> Can anyone out there offer any suggestions and recommendations? Thank you so
> much.


Hi,,,, Usually if it is inflam.arth.,  it would be your middle finger
on both hands or another finger on the other hand.  This has been
going on for too long.  Ask your doctor for help and remind how long
you have been dealing with this.   Maybe a steroid shot in the finger.
Harv

Definitely get in to see your doctor and *insist* on something being done to 
treat this.  My inflammatory arthritis has been affecting my thumbs in major 
ways since April of 2000 - I well remember it starting up the weekend of the 
Spring Arts Festival in Gainesville that year. As much as I hate pain in 
other finger joints, having it hit your thumb really affects everything in 
your life, though it does teach you to appreciate the evolutionary advance 
the opposable thumb was!  Anyway, get in to see your doc - thumbs are just 
too important!

Oh, and you can test negative for RA but still have it - 1/4 to 1/3 of folks 
with it never test positive.  There are also many other types of inflammatory 
arthritis some of which affect the ligaments, muscles and organs of the body. 
 My brand is psoriatic arthritis and it has affected ligaments from time to 
time as well as giving me some inflammation that makes no sense to anyone!  A 
referral to a decent rheumatologist should get this investigated more 
thoroughly.

-- 
Nann
remove the Gator cheer to email me
        Change everything. Love & forgive.



On Mon, 12 May 2008 9:22:55 -0400, Harv wrote
(in message 
):

> On Apr 27, 12:49 pm, "A M Jackson" 
> 
>> After 8 months of daily left middle finger pains, now my left thumb starts
>> having the same kind of pain too.
>> 
>> Can anyone out there offer any suggestions and recommendations? Thank you 
>> so
>> much.
> 
> 
> Hi,,,, Usually if it is inflam.arth.,  it would be your middle finger
> on both hands or another finger on the other hand.  This has been
> going on for too long.  Ask your doctor for help and remind how long
> you have been dealing with this.   Maybe a steroid shot in the finger.
> Harv

OK, now I got a name. Its called "trigger finger".
I google and found many references.

Most medications are for pain relief.
I found only direct medicate is inject cortisone steriod shots to the area.
Can you please tell me any side effect of this?

By the way, I have taken cholesterol reducing drug (small dosage Simvastatin 
40mg and Fenotidrate 40mg). Is these drug caused this side effect?
Thank you.

"A M Jackson"  writes:
>OK, now I got a name. Its called "trigger finger".
>I google and found many references.
>
>Most medications are for pain relief.
>I found only direct medicate is inject cortisone steriod shots to the area.
>Can you please tell me any side effect of this?
>
>By the way, I have taken cholesterol reducing drug (small dosage Simvastatin 
>40mg and Fenotidrate 40mg). Is these drug caused this side effect?

not that i've ever heard of, but then i've never had them.

apart from the (eventual) injections, the only relief i ever found was
heat.  mostly, this came from filling up a wash basin with hot water,
submerging the hands, and repeating as the water cooled.  (a
conference at a usanian hotel that had a hot tub was a godsend; i
spent some time pre-breakfast in the tub, and i was set up for a good
part of the day.)

iirc, my consultant called it "claw hand", but a after a google search
i _think_ that's a different condition.  but then, i maybe simply
don't understand what the pages it turns up actually mean -- the
pictures are more-or-less the same.

all the pictures i've found so far show only a single finger stuck: i
usually had all four mia.  (i was single at the time: dressing myself
could be difficult...)
-- 
Robin Fairbairns, Cambridge

On Apr 27, 10:49 am, "A M Jackson"  wrote:my left
middle fingers middle and bottom joints around the knuckle areas, <<

http://www.toomuchiron.ca/disorder/faqs.php

"Aching joints, especially in the knuckle and first joint of the first
and second fingers"


Who loves ya.
Tom


Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh


Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3


DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk



> I am 62 years old. I am a right hand person.
>
> Around 9 months ago, my left middle finger¡¯s middle and bottom joints> around the knuckle areas, started to be painful, particularly in the
> morning. When I tried to bend my middle finger, I feel the joint movement
> not smooth, kind of snap and bounce like a toggle switch.
>
> I am unable to fold and curl my middle finger back to touch my palm, like
> trying to hold a fist. When I put my finger in hot water, the joint movement
> is smoother and less painful. I am taking Glucosamine Hydrochloride (1500mg)
> plug MSN (methylsulfonylmethane 1500mg) daily, but showing no help.
>
> My doctor has X-ray and blood test for Rheumatoid Arthritis. Everything
> tested normal.
>
> I have tried and see different physicians, physical therapist, orthopedic
> specialists; none offer much explanation or help. Except one athletic person
> suggested I have the ¡°soft bone¡± problem. This soft bone is suppose to be
> part of the ligament and cartilage tightening problem. But he did not offer
> much solution for my problem, except that I should have physical therapy
> exercise.
>
> After 8 months of daily left middle finger pains, now my left thumb starts> having the same kind of pain too.
>
> Can anyone out there offer any suggestions and recommendations? Thank you so
> much.

snake oil  writes:
>On Apr 27, 10:49=A0am, "A M Jackson"  wrote:my left
>middle fingers middle and bottom joints around the knuckle areas, <<
>
>http://www.toomuchiron.ca/disorder/faqs.php
>
>"Aching joints, especially in the knuckle and first joint of the first
>and second fingers"
>
>
>Who loves ya.

plainly not the snake oil merchants.
-- 
Robin Fairbairns, Cambridge

On May 26, 2:27 am, r...@cl.cam.ac.uk (Robin Fairbairns) wrote:plainly
not the snake oil merchants.Robin Fairbairns, Cambridge <<

You have something you want to say about the Canadian Hemochromatosis
Society .. do ya .. limey .

Do ya .. ?
Which may well explain the problem they have found in those with
Juvenile
Rheumatoid Arthritis .. INCREASED destruction by introduction of
iron ..


EXPERIMENTAL BIOLOGY UPDATE: Arthritic kids' iron supplements may
hasten joint
deterioration


By Diana Swift


WWASHINGTON, D.C. - The iron supplements that many arthritic children
take to
combat concomitant anemia may be hastening the deterioration of their
joints,
Houston researchers say.


Led by biologist Roman Shypailo of the Children's Nutrition Research
Centre at
Baylor College of Medicine, a Texas team looked at eight children
being treated
for juvenile rheumatoid arthritis. The patients, aged five to 15
years,
received an intravenous radioactive tracer dose of iron (0.03
microsievert).
Iron activity in affected joints was monitored on a position/energy-
sensitive
gamma counter, while a second machine monitored whole-body iron
retention. Iron
deposition was measured two hours post-infusion and again at days
seven, 14, 28
and 56.


Anemic
"We found that iron excessively accumulates in arthritic joints and
probably
contributes to the chronic damage," said Shypailo. "That puts you
between a
rock and a hard place because many of these arthritic kids are anemic
and need
iron supplements, which may worsen the disease."


The study found a high level of agreement between the joint data and
the
whole-body data, with a greater than 90% retention rate of the infused
iron
both in joints and systemically. Furthermore, six of eight patients
showed
increased uptake at the affected joints: 165% over the first 30 days
compared
with initial uptake at two hours.


The next step, he says, is to see if there is excessive deposition of
dietary
iron in arthritic joints.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------
------
There are many bits of information required in order to make a case
against a 'suspect' ..

When one suspects .. something .. one gathers .. 'evidence' ..


Evidence against iron in the pathogenesis of arthritis ..


1] Markers .. diagnostic of iron overload .. IN .. those with
arthritis
.. have been found to me of NO use in those with arthritis ..
http://groups.google.com/group/alt.support.arthritis/msg/7a943fccf825...
IE: 50% of patients manifest liver problems .. and the COMMON
diagnostic marker used to detect liver iron load has been found to be
of **no use** in those with arthritis.


2] Drugs used to treat arthritis commonly are iron binding / iron
targeting .. drugs ..


IE: aspirin,indomethacin,sulfasalazine,


3] Reduction of iron is recommended in the treatment of gout ..


4] Oxidative stress has been shown to be elevated in those with
arthritis and iron reduction is shown to alleviate oxidative stress.


5] Iron restricted diet has been shown to alleviate symptoms of
arthritis.


6] Introduction of iron rich blood into the joint induces / causes
arthritis


7] Introduction of iron into the joint induces / causes arthritis


8] Those with diagnosed iron overload have a very high incidence of
arthritis


9] Iron levels have recently been recommended to be tested in ALL
those
who manifest unexplained joint pain ..


10] The fact they have admitted to inadvertently **killing** millions
of people by not being **able** to diagnose iron levels in the body.


IE: malaria patients treated with iron and folic acid


11] The fact they have admitted to inadvertently killing Aids
patients
by giving them iron.


12] The fact they have only recently found all diabetics to have free
floating unbound iron in their bodies when they had argued there was
no
iron at all.


13} Iron accumulates excessively in joints in those with arthritis.
Tom


Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh


Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3


DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk






>  snake oil  writes:
>
> >On Apr 27, 10:49=A0am, "A M Jackson"  wrote:my left
> >middle fingers middle and bottom joints around the knuckle areas, <<
>
> >http://www.toomuchiron.ca/disorder/faqs.php
>
> >"Aching joints, especially in the knuckle and first joint of the first
> >and second fingers"
>
> >Who loves ya.
>
> plainly not the snake oil merchants.
> --
> Robin Fairbairns, Cambridge

On Apr 27, 10:49 am, "A M Jackson"  wrote:any
suggestions <<

"The uptake and storage of iron and its potential relation to
imflammation
of the joints has been unknown until now"

"A high iron content has been noted in synovial membraines in RA"

Annals of the Rheumatic Diseases 2002;61:741-744


Iron deposits may damage joint tissue in RA


Our understanding of the role of iron in rheumatoid arthritis (RA)
has
improved with a recent study showing where iron accumulates in the
synovial
membranes of affected joints.
The researchers speculate how iron might build up to toxic amounts.
Ferritin, both light and heavy subunits , was found in the lining
layer and subintimal zone of the synovium and in synovial macrophages
and
fibroblasts.
Transferrin receptor appeared only in the lining layer .
Non-specific resistance associated macrophage proteins (Nramp) were
also found
These are proteins that span membranes and transport divalent
cations.
Nramp 2 occurred in the macrophages and fibroblasts.
Nramp 1 was present in macrophages and neutrophils, in the synovial
lining layer and the subintimal zone, and in infiltrating inflammatory
cells, but not in fibroblasts.
The study used synovial membranes from arthroplasties of 20 patients
with RA.
Thin sections were stained cytochemically for ferritin, transferrin
receptor , and Nramp 1 with monoclonal or polyclonal antibodies.
Macrophages and fibroblasts were isolated from collaginase digests of
synovial
membranes.
Neutrophils were isolated from synovial fluid aspirated routinely
from
the joints .
These cell types were stained for ferritin and transferrin receptor
immunocytochemically.
Nramp 1 and Nramp 2 were identified by reverse transcriptase
polymerase chain reaction.
A high iron content has been noted in synovial membraines in RA , but
the uptake and storage of iron and its potential relation to
imflammation
of the joints has been unknown until now.
---------------------------------------------------


Who loves ya.
Tom


Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh


Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3


DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk





> I am 62 years old. I am a right hand person.
>
> Around 9 months ago, my left middle finger¡¯s middle and bottom joints> around the knuckle areas, started to be painful, particularly in the
> morning. When I tried to bend my middle finger, I feel the joint movement
> not smooth, kind of snap and bounce like a toggle switch.
>
> I am unable to fold and curl my middle finger back to touch my palm, like
> trying to hold a fist. When I put my finger in hot water, the joint movement
> is smoother and less painful. I am taking Glucosamine Hydrochloride (1500mg)
> plug MSN (methylsulfonylmethane 1500mg) daily, but showing no help.
>
> My doctor has X-ray and blood test for Rheumatoid Arthritis. Everything
> tested normal.
>
> I have tried and see different physicians, physical therapist, orthopedic
> specialists; none offer much explanation or help. Except one athletic person
> suggested I have the ¡°soft bone¡± problem. This soft bone is suppose to be
> part of the ligament and cartilage tightening problem. But he did not offer
> much solution for my problem, except that I should have physical therapy
> exercise.
>
> After 8 months of daily left middle finger pains, now my left thumb starts> having the same kind of pain too.
>
> Can anyone out there offer any suggestions and recommendations? Thank you so
> much.

>
>2] Drugs used to treat arthritis commonly are iron binding / iron
>targeting .. drugs ..
>
>
>IE: aspirin,indomethacin,sulfasalazine,
>
>
>3] Reduction of iron is recommended in the treatment of gout ..
>
>
>4] Oxidative stress has been shown to be elevated in those with
>arthritis and iron reduction is shown to alleviate oxidative stress.
>
>
>5] Iron restricted diet has been shown to alleviate symptoms of
>arthritis.
>
>
>6] Introduction of iron rich blood into the joint induces / causes
>arthritis
>
>
>7] Introduction of iron into the joint induces / causes arthritis
>
>
>8] Those with diagnosed iron overload have a very high incidence of
>arthritis
>
>
>9] Iron levels have recently been recommended to be tested in ALL
>those
>who manifest unexplained joint pain ..
>
>
>10] The fact they have admitted to inadvertently **killing** millions
>of people by not being **able** to diagnose iron levels in the body.
>
>
>IE: malaria patients treated with iron and folic acid
>
>
>11] The fact they have admitted to inadvertently killing Aids
>patients
>by giving them iron.
>
>
>12] The fact they have only recently found all diabetics to have free
>floating unbound iron in their bodies when they had argued there was
>no
>iron at all.
>
>
>13} Iron accumulates excessively in joints in those with arthritis.
>Tom
>

Well there we have it!, we're all in need of some Castrol as we're all
going rusty;!.....

-- 
Tony Sayer

Tony,,,  you do not have to repeat all of what has been said.   In other 
words, you do not have to repeeeet the crap.
Harv

"tony sayer"  wrote in message 
news:xhhvWvBHVvOIFw$Z@bancom.co.uk...
> >
>>2] Drugs used to treat arthritis commonly are iron binding / iron
>>targeting .. drugs ..
>>
>>
>>IE: aspirin,indomethacin,sulfasalazine,
>>
>>
>>3] Reduction of iron is recommended in the treatment of gout ..
>>
>>
>>4] Oxidative stress has been shown to be elevated in those with
>>arthritis and iron reduction is shown to alleviate oxidative stress.
>>
>>
>>5] Iron restricted diet has been shown to alleviate symptoms of
>>arthritis.
>>
>>
>>6] Introduction of iron rich blood into the joint induces / causes
>>arthritis
>>
>>
>>7] Introduction of iron into the joint induces / causes arthritis
>>
>>
>>8] Those with diagnosed iron overload have a very high incidence of
>>arthritis
>>
>>
>>9] Iron levels have recently been recommended to be tested in ALL
>>those
>>who manifest unexplained joint pain ..
>>
>>
>>10] The fact they have admitted to inadvertently **killing** millions
>>of people by not being **able** to diagnose iron levels in the body.
>>
>>
>>IE: malaria patients treated with iron and folic acid
>>
>>
>>11] The fact they have admitted to inadvertently killing Aids
>>patients
>>by giving them iron.
>>
>>
>>12] The fact they have only recently found all diabetics to have free
>>floating unbound iron in their bodies when they had argued there was
>>no
>>iron at all.
>>
>>
>>13} Iron accumulates excessively in joints in those with arthritis.
>>Tom
>>
>
> Well there we have it!, we're all in need of some Castrol as we're all
> going rusty;!.....
>
> -- 
> Tony Sayer
>
>

In article <toJ_j.853$iM3.120@flpi150.ffdc.sbc.com>, Harvey R. Stone
 scribeth thus
>Tony,,,  you do not have to repeat all of what has been said.   In other 
>words, you do not have to repeeeet the crap.
>Harv

Well most of it was snipped..

However it might not be crap this is often the case in science;)

And how many get worse symptoms when its damp;?..

I like this "rust" theory;!..
-- 
Tony Sayer

tony sayer  wrote:

> In article <toJ_j.853$iM3.120@flpi150.ffdc.sbc.com>, Harvey R. Stone
>  scribeth thus
> >Tony,,,  you do not have to repeat all of what has been said.   In other
> >words, you do not have to repeeeet the crap.
> >Harv
> 
> Well most of it was snipped..
> 
> However it might not be crap this is often the case in science;)
> 
> And how many get worse symptoms when its damp;?..
> 
> I like this "rust" theory;!..

I  tend to agree with you.  When the temperature is colder, and the
weather turns damp, I swear my arthritis gets worse.  The Doctor tends
to poo hoo the idea, but I'm not so sure.  Have there been any medical
studies done into the affect of weather on arthritis?

Peter
-- 
He spoke with a certain what-is-it in his voice, and I 
could see that, if not actually disgruntled, he was far
from being gruntled.
P.G. Wodehouse 1881 -1975

tony sayer  writes:
>In article <toJ_j.853$iM3.120@flpi150.ffdc.sbc.com>, Harvey R. Stone
> scribeth thus
>>Tony,,,  you do not have to repeat all of what has been said.   In other 
>>words, you do not have to repeeeet the crap.
>
>Well most of it was snipped..
>
>However it might not be crap this is often the case in science;)

if he were to show us double-blind, peer-reviewed studies that
suggests his iron postulate has legs, i'll be interested.  most
snake-oil people don't do that sort of thing, and rely on "studies"
which report how many people say they feel "better" after something or
other.  since that sort of result can come from the placebo effect,
such studies are useless as scientific evidence.  it's good to know if
a problem can be affected by a placebo, but to claim that a medication
is worth spending money on when it's no more use than placebo, is
plain misleading.

>And how many get worse symptoms when its damp;?..
>
>I like this "rust" theory;!..

i've noticed the damp effect.  i've also seen reports that the effect
is related to atmospheric pressure (low pressure, which tends to
signal rain in this country, causes problems).  i've never seen a
detailed study of either claim.

however, the suggestion that excess iron in the body would "rust" is
plain silly.  one of the real problems with treating anaemia is
persuading the body to take up the iron in the drugs offered; this is
because, to make it soluble at all, the iron has to be in a compound
form, and for it to be taken up it has to be chelated into an organic
compound in the body.  in neither case is the iron available to
"rust".

in any case, if iron is such a devil, why doesn't popeye, who subsists
on an iron-rich vegetable, a martyr to arthritis?

note 1: that last sentence wasn't intended to be on the same level as
the rest.

note 2: i haven't studied chemistry since the 1960s: i gave it up to
become a mathematician.  so it's probably easy to pick holes in my
chemistry, but the basic principles are as likely as not "sound".
-- 
Robin Fairbairns, Cambridge

"Robin Fairbairns"  wrote in message 
news:g1go8o$jjs$2@gemini.csx.cam.ac.uk...
> tony sayer  writes:
>>In article <toJ_j.853$iM3.120@flpi150.ffdc.sbc.com>, Harvey R. Stone
>> scribeth thus
>>>Tony,,,  you do not have to repeat all of what has been said.   In other
>>>words, you do not have to repeeeet the crap.
>>
>>Well most of it was snipped..
>>
>>However it might not be crap this is often the case in science;)
>
> if he were to show us double-blind, peer-reviewed studies that
> suggests his iron postulate has legs, i'll be interested.  most
> snake-oil people don't do that sort of thing, and rely on "studies"
> which report how many people say they feel "better" after something or
> other.  since that sort of result can come from the placebo effect,
> such studies are useless as scientific evidence.  it's good to know if
> a problem can be affected by a placebo, but to claim that a medication
> is worth spending money on when it's no more use than placebo, is
> plain misleading.
>
>>And how many get worse symptoms when its damp;?..
>>
>>I like this "rust" theory;!..
>
> i've noticed the damp effect.  i've also seen reports that the effect
> is related to atmospheric pressure (low pressure, which tends to
> signal rain in this country, causes problems).  i've never seen a
> detailed study of either claim.

The changing high and low pressure causes some of us to feel pain in some of 
our joints.    I went to a RD many years ago that had an office in a 
building in the medical center of Houston.   That building has a lightning 
fast elevator if no one else was calling on the floors between and the 
doctors office.    When it stopped,,, my ears would pop and both knees would 
go """ throbbb"""".   People in the elevator would always look at me because 
I could not help groaning before I stepped out of it.   :-)  my kind of 
prooofff that pressure change does cause pain.
Harv


>
> however, the suggestion that excess iron in the body would "rust" is
> plain silly.  one of the real problems with treating anaemia is
> persuading the body to take up the iron in the drugs offered; this is
> because, to make it soluble at all, the iron has to be in a compound
> form, and for it to be taken up it has to be chelated into an organic
> compound in the body.  in neither case is the iron available to
> "rust".
>
> in any case, if iron is such a devil, why doesn't popeye, who subsists
> on an iron-rich vegetable, a martyr to arthritis?
>
> note 1: that last sentence wasn't intended to be on the same level as
> the rest.
>
> note 2: i haven't studied chemistry since the 1960s: i gave it up to
> become a mathematician.  so it's probably easy to pick holes in my
> chemistry, but the basic principles are as likely as not "sound".
> -- 
> Robin Fairbairns, Cambridge

On Tue, 27 May 2008 07:24:03 -0500, "Harvey R. Stone"
 wrote:

>The changing high and low pressure causes some of us to feel pain in some of 
>our joints.    I went to a RD many years ago that had an office in a 
>building in the medical center of Houston.   That building has a lightning 
>fast elevator if no one else was calling on the floors between and the 
>doctors office.    When it stopped,,, my ears would pop and both knees would 
>go """ throbbb"""".   People in the elevator would always look at me because 
>I could not help groaning before I stepped out of it.   :-)  my kind of 
>prooofff that pressure change does cause pain.
>Harv

I'm with you on that one, Harv. I have actually kept records of
wet and dry days and my level of pain. No connection, but when
the barometer takes a sudden rise or fall I react. Who knows?

Joan

Robin Fairbairns wrote:

> 
> i've noticed the damp effect.  i've also seen reports that the effect
> is related to atmospheric pressure (low pressure, which tends to
> signal rain in this country, causes problems).  i've never seen a
> detailed study of either claim.

starting from the premise that with over 100 forms of arthritis, each
will have it's own distinct response to such influences - there have
been numerous studies over the past 10 years that are properly run, and
show the connection [disclosure, i was in one of 'em]:


"Further support for an effect on atmospheric pressure in arthritis was
published in the Proceedings of the Western Pharmacology Society in
2004. In this prospective, double blind study, 92 patients with
osteoarthritis and rheumatoid arthritis were compared to a control group
of 42 subjects. The authors concluded that the osteoarthritis patients
experienced increased joint pain with a low atmospheric pressure while
low temperature increased the risk of joint pain in the rheumatoid
group. Another study published in the Journal of Rheumatology in 2004
demonstrated that high humidity was unfavorable for arthritis patients.
Based on these particular studies, it would seem that a location that
tends to have a higher barometric pressure and lower humidity would
represent a favorable environment for arthritis patients."

also:
# The Effect of Simultaneous Variations of Humidity and Barometric
Pressure on Arthritis
# Joseph P. Hollander and Sarantos Y. Yeostros
#  AIBS Bulletin, Vol. 13, No. 3 (Jun., 1963), pp. 24-28   (article
consists of 5 pages)
# Published by: American Institute of Biological Sciences

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_hb4365/is_200505/ai_n15251829
Study finds knee arthritis pain does predict changes in barometric
pressure, temperature.(Rheumatology)

Findings from a study conducted by Dr. McAlindon and his colleagues at
Tufts-New England Medical Center, Boston, suggest that persons with knee
osteoarthritis do indeed have greater pain when there are changes in
barometric pressure.

The study was conducted from March 2000 to May 2003 and included about
200 people with knee osteoarthritis in 41 U.S. states.

Purpose

Individuals with osteoarthritis often assert that change in the weather
influences their pain, but the evidence is inconclusive. Our objective
was to determine if short-term weather parameters influence knee
osteoarthritis pain.
Methods

"We performed a longitudinal analysis of pain reports from a 3-month
clinical trial among individuals with knee osteoarthritis dispersed
across the United States. Daily values for temperature, barometric
pressure, dew point, precipitation, and relative humidity were obtained
from the weather station closest to each participant. We used a
longitudinal mixed-model random effects analysis with a first-order
autoregressive error structure to test for associations while accounting
for within-patient correlation.

Results

The study included 200 participants with knee osteoarthritis. Their mean
age was 60 years (standard deviation [SD] 9.4), 64% were female, and
10.5% were African American or Hispanic. They had a mean body mass index
of 32.5 kg/m2 (SD 8.4) and a baseline WOMAC pain score of 9.0 (SD 3.4).
There were consistent associations of pressure change and ambient
temperature with pain severity (change in barometric pressure,
coefficient = 1.14, P = .02, ambient temperature = -0.01, P = .004;
adjusted mutually and for age, gender, body mass index, nonsteroidal
anti-inflammatory drug use, opiate use, and prior pain score).
Interaction terms between change in barometric pressure and ambient
temperature had no influence in the models.
Conclusions

Changes in barometric pressure and ambient temperature are independently
associated with osteoarthritis knee pain severity."




and a fairly new one:

http://news.healingwell.com/index.php?p=news1&id=521836

now, there are always those, like Dr. Amos Tversky, a Stanford
University psychologist who try to find a 'mind' based reason - and just
can't allow themselves to actually look at the studies.


> 
> however, the suggestion that excess iron in the body would "rust" is
> plain silly.  one of the real problems with treating anaemia is
> persuading the body to take up the iron in the drugs offered; this is
> because, to make it soluble at all, the iron has to be in a compound
> form, and for it to be taken up it has to be chelated into an organic
> compound in the body.  in neither case is the iron available to
> "rust".
> 
> in any case, if iron is such a devil, why doesn't popeye, who subsists
> on an iron-rich vegetable, a martyr to arthritis?
> 
> note 1: that last sentence wasn't intended to be on the same level as
> the rest.
> 
> note 2: i haven't studied chemistry since the 1960s: i gave it up to
> become a mathematician.  so it's probably easy to pick holes in my
> chemistry, but the basic principles are as likely as not "sound".
> --
> Robin Fairbairns, Cambridge

Joan Carter  writes:
>On Tue, 27 May 2008 07:24:03 -0500, "Harvey R. Stone"
> wrote:
>
>>The changing high and low pressure causes some of us to feel pain in some of 
>>our joints.    I went to a RD many years ago that had an office in a 
>>building in the medical center of Houston.   That building has a lightning 
>>fast elevator if no one else was calling on the floors between and the 
>>doctors office.    When it stopped,,, my ears would pop and both knees would 
>>go """ throbbb"""".   People in the elevator would always look at me because 
>>I could not help groaning before I stepped out of it.   :-)  my kind of 
>>prooofff that pressure change does cause pain.
>
>I'm with you on that one, Harv. I have actually kept records of
>wet and dry days and my level of pain. No connection, but when
>the barometer takes a sudden rise or fall I react. Who knows?

aha.  i'll take that as rather strong evidence: no idea how i would
make it into a "proper" experiment (how do you generate placebo
weather effects? ;-)  (fortunately, i'm not paid to design
experiments, i just spend my time being an experimental animal for the
medics.)

come to think of it, perhaps this evening's state of my hands is
related to the ambient pressure.  or perhaps it's because i'm tired...

it doesn't fit with the naive assertion that excess iron was
"rusting", though.  i _am_ surprised...
-- 
Robin Fairbairns, Cambridge

On Apr 27, 10:49 am, "A M Jackson"  wrote:any
suggestions <<

"Unexplained joint complaints"
"We therefore advocate routine sampling of ferritin levels in
patients
with unexplained joint complaints"

Neth J Med. 2006 Sep;64(8):307-9. Links
Sporadic porphyria cutanea tarda due to haemochromatosis.
de Geus HR, Dees A.
Department of Intensive Care, Erasmus Medical Centre, Rotterdam, the
Netherlands.


Haemochromatosis is a hereditary iron-overload syndrome caused by
increased intestinal iron absorption and characterised by
accumulation of potentially toxic iron in the tissues.
Sometimes this disease presents as a cutanea porphyria.
We describe a patient with joint complaints and blistering skin
lesions
on sun-exposed skin.
After identifying the porphyria cutanea tarda by urine analysis we
found
that the serum activity of uroporphyrinogen decarboxylase (UROD) was
normal, meaning a partial inactivation of UROD in liver tissue due to
external factors.
Further investigation showed the homozygous Cys282Tyr
missense mutation and high levels of serum ferritin.
It is important to recognise the symptoms of iron overloading at an
early stage because hereditary haemochromatosis needs to be treated
immediately.
We therefore advocate routine sampling of ferritin levels in patients
with
unexplained joint complaints.

PMID: 16990695

Who loves ya.
Tom

Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh


Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3


DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk


> I am 62 years old. I am a right hand person.
>
> Around 9 months ago, my left middle finger¡¯s middle and bottom joints> around the knuckle areas, started to be painful, particularly in the
> morning. When I tried to bend my middle finger, I feel the joint movement
> not smooth, kind of snap and bounce like a toggle switch.
>
> I am unable to fold and curl my middle finger back to touch my palm, like
> trying to hold a fist. When I put my finger in hot water, the joint movement
> is smoother and less painful. I am taking Glucosamine Hydrochloride (1500mg)
> plug MSN (methylsulfonylmethane 1500mg) daily, but showing no help.
>
> My doctor has X-ray and blood test for Rheumatoid Arthritis. Everything
> tested normal.
>
> I have tried and see different physicians, physical therapist, orthopedic
> specialists; none offer much explanation or help. Except one athletic person
> suggested I have the ¡°soft bone¡± problem. This soft bone is suppose to be
> part of the ligament and cartilage tightening problem. But he did not offer
> much solution for my problem, except that I should have physical therapy
> exercise.
>
> After 8 months of daily left middle finger pains, now my left thumb starts> having the same kind of pain too.
>
> Can anyone out there offer any suggestions and recommendations? Thank you so
> much.

Have you done an elimination diet?

On May 12, 6:31 pm, Nann Bell  wrote:
>  My brand is psoriatic arthritis and it has affected ligaments from time to
> time as well as giving me some inflammation that makes no sense to anyone!

"Paul T. Holland"  writes:
>Robin Fairbairns wrote:
>
>> i've noticed the damp effect.  i've also seen reports that the effect
>> is related to atmospheric pressure (low pressure, which tends to
>> signal rain in this country, causes problems).  i've never seen a
>> detailed study of either claim.
>
>starting from the premise that with over 100 forms of arthritis, each
>will have it's own distinct response to such influences - there have
>been numerous studies over the past 10 years that are properly run, and
>show the connection [disclosure, i was in one of 'em]:

coo, thanks for all that!
-- 
Robin Fairbairns, Cambridge

Michael B  writes:
>On May 12, 6:31 pm, Nann Bell  wrote:
>>  My brand is psoriatic arthritis and it has affected ligaments from time to
>> time as well as giving me some inflammation that makes no sense to anyone!
>
>Have you done an elimination diet?

the op may not have done, but i have.  psoriatic arthritis (now
branded, in my case, sero-negative rheumatoid arthritis) tends to
confuse rheumatologists, simply because it may _not_ present in many
of the standard tests.

i was lucky that my rheumies chose to treat the disease agressively,
based on the symptoms rather than on the tests.  in the end, my
disease is pretty well controlled (i reached this state about 10 years
after first rheum appointment ... they were investigating the
possibility of anti-tnf treatment at the time, but rejected it on the
basis that my inflammation had started to retreat.  i still feel bad
on days like today, though ... good old low pressure syndrome, eh?).
-- 
Robin Fairbairns, Cambridge

On May 26, 10:37 am, tony sayer  wrote:Well there
we have it!, we're all in need of some Castrol as we're all going
rusty;!..... <<

It IS just as simple as that .. but spelled different ..

Castor .. oil ..

The iron **selectively** destroys the 'lubricant' around the joints
and  castor oil is one of many plant oils which contain this lubricant
and soooo eating it seems to be the way one might replace it.

Lack Of Critical Lubricant Causes Wear In Joints, First-Ever Study
Finds
Main Category: Arthritis News
Article Date: 07 Nov 2007 - 1:00 PST


Mice that don't produce lubricin, a thin film of protein found in the
cartilage of joints, showed early wear and higher friction in their
joints, a new study led by Brown University researchers shows.


This link between increased friction and early wear in joints is a
first; no other team of scientists has proven this association
before.
The finding, published in Arthritis & Rheumatism, sheds important
light on how joints work. The discovery also suggests that lubricin,
or a close cousin, could be injected directly into hips, knees or
other joints inflamed from arthritis or injury -- a preventive
treatment that could reduce the need for painful and costly joint
replacement surgery.


In an editorial that accompanies the journal article, orthopedics
researchers from Rush University Medical Center in Chicago call the
research an "important contribution to the field" and note that the
use of biomolecules like lubricin to prevent joint wear "could have a
substantial clinical impact, if successful."


Gregory Jay, M.D, a Rhode Island Hospital emergency physician and an
associate professor of emergency medicine and engineering at Brown,
led the research. For 20 years, Jay has studied lubricin's role as a
"boundary lubricant" by reducing friction between opposing layers of
cartilage inside joints. In this new work, Jay and his colleagues set
out to answer the next question: Does reducing friction actually
prevent wear, or surface damage, in joints?


To find out, Jay and his team studied cartilage from the knees of
mice
that don't produce lubricin. Directly after birth, the cartilage was
smooth. But in as little as two weeks, researchers found, the
cartilage began to show signs of wear. Under an electron microscope,
scientists could see that the collagen fibers that cartilage is
composed of were breaking up, giving the surface a rough, frayed
appearance. This damage is called wear, an early sign of joint
disease
or injury.


Jay and his team then took the work a step further. To better
understand how lubricin works, they tried to see the structure of the
film. So they put a tiny bit of the protein under an atomic force
microscope. At the nanoscale, the molecule appeared as a mesh -- row
upon row of interlocking fibers -- that could repel a microscope
probe. This repulsion, created with water and electrical charges,
shows how lubricin acts as a buffer, keeping opposing layers of
cartilage apart.


"We demonstrated that lubricin reduces both friction and wear and
also
showed how, on a molecular level, it does this work in the body," Jay
said. "What's exciting are the clinical implications. Arthritis and
sports injuries damage the joints of thousands of people in the
United
States and millions of people worldwide each year. Our aim is to make
a treatment that can actually prevent wear in the joints."


Through Rhode Island Hospital, Jay has filed two patents on the
protein and its sequences and, in 2004, helped form Tribologics, a
biotech company formed out of Rhode Island Hospital. The
Massaschusetts-based business is developing an injection treatment
for
inflamed joints that contains lubricin.


Members of the research team included Jahn Torres, a former Brown
graduate student in engineering; David Rhee, a former graduate
student
at Case Western Reserve University; Heikki Helminen, M.D., and Mika
Hytinnen, M.D., from the University of Kuopio in Finland; Chung-Ja
Cha, a research assistant at Rhode Island Hospital; Khaled Elsaid, a
postdoctoral research fellow at Rhode Island Hospital; Kyung-Suk Kim,
a professor of engineering at Brown; and Yajun Cui, M.D., and Matthew
Warman, M.D., of Boston Children's Hospital and Harvard Medical
School.


The National Institute of Arthritis and Musculoskelatal and Skin
Diseases funded the work, along with the Academy of Finland, the
McCutchen Foundation, the Howard Hughes Medical Institute and the
Burroughs Wellcome Fund.


Source: Wendy Lawton
Brown University


--------------------------------------------------


J Orthop Surg. 2007 Aug 23;2(1):14 [Epub ahead of print] Links
Unsaturated phosphatidylcholines lining on the surface of cartilage
and its possible physiological roles.
Chen Y, Crawford RW, Oloyede A.
ABSTRACT:
BACKGROUND:
Evidence has strongly indicated that surface-active phospholipid
(SAPL), or surfactant, lines the surface of cartilage and serves as a
lubricating agent. Previous clinical study showed that a saturated
phosphatidylcholine (SPC), dipalmitoyl-phosphatidylcholine (DPPC),
was
effective in the treatment of osteoarthritis, however recent studies
suggested that the dominant SAPL species at some sites outside the
lung are not SPC, rather, are unsaturated phosphatidylcholine (USPC).
Some of these USPC have been proven to be good boundary lubricants by
our previous study, implicating their possible important
physiological
roles in joint if their existence can be confirmed. So far, no study
has been conducted to identify the whole molecule species of
different
phosphatidylcholine (PC) classes on the surface of cartilage. In this
study we identified the dominant PC molecule species on the surface
of
cartilage. We also confirmed that some of these PC species possess a
property of semipermeability.
METHODS:
HPLC was used to analyse the PC profile of bovine cartilage samples
and comparisons of DPPC and USPC were carried out through
semipermeability tests.
RESULTS:
It was confirmed that USPC are the dominant SAPL species on the
surface of cartilage. In particular, they are Dilinoleoyl-
phosphatidylcholine (DLPC), Palmitoyl-linoleoyl-phosphatidylcholine,
(PLPC), Palmitoyl-oleoyl-phosphatidylcholine (POPC) and Stearoyl-
linoleoyl-phosphatidylcholine (SLPC). The relative content of DPPC (a
SPC) was only 8%. Two USPC, PLPC and POPC, were capable of generating
osmotic pressure that is equivalent to that by DPPC.
CONCLUSIONS:
The results from the current study confirm vigorously that USPC is
the
endogenous species inside the joint as against DPPC thereby
confirming
once again that USPC, and not SPC, characterizes the PC species
distribution at non-lung sites of the body. USPC not only has better
anti-friction and lubrication properties than DPPC, they also possess
a level of semipermeability that is equivalent to DPPC. We therefore
hypothesize that USPC can constitute a possible addition or
alternative to the current commercially available
viscosupplementation
products for the prevention and treatment of osteoarthritis in the
future.


PMID: 17718898 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]


---------------------------------------------------------------------------­­­-----


Who loves ya.
Tom


Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh


Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3


DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk




> >2] Drugs used to treat arthritis commonly are iron binding / iron
> >targeting .. drugs ..
>
> >IE: aspirin,indomethacin,sulfasalazine,
>
> >3] Reduction of iron is recommended in the treatment of gout ..
>
> >4] Oxidative stress has been shown to be elevated in those with
> >arthritis and iron reduction is shown to alleviate oxidative stress.
>
> >5] Iron restricted diet has been shown to alleviate symptoms of
> >arthritis.
>
> >6] Introduction of iron rich blood into the joint induces / causes
> >arthritis
>
> >7] Introduction of iron into the joint induces / causes arthritis
>
> >8] Those with diagnosed iron overload have a very high incidence of
> >arthritis
>
> >9] Iron levels have recently been recommended to be tested in ALL
> >those
> >who manifest unexplained joint pain ..
>
> >10] The fact they have admitted to inadvertently **killing** millions
> >of people by not being **able** to diagnose iron levels in the body.
>
> >IE: malaria patients treated with iron and folic acid
>
> >11] The fact they have admitted to inadvertently killing Aids
> >patients
> >by giving them iron.
>
> >12] The fact they have only recently found all diabetics to have free
> >floating unbound iron in their bodies when they had argued there was
> >no
> >iron at all.
>
> >13} Iron accumulates excessively in joints in those with arthritis.
> >Tom
>
> Well there we have it!, we're all in need of some Castrol as we're all
> going rusty;!.....
>
> --
> Tony Sayer- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

On May 28, 9:36 am, ironjustice  wrote:confirm
vigorously that unsaturated phosphatidylcholine (USPC) is the
endogenous species inside the joint <<

"Unsaturated phosphatidylcholine in the treatment and/or prophylaxis
of particular medical conditions such as osteoarthritis and for
lubricating interactive surfaces in artificial joints."

(WO/2005/027933) UNSATURATED PHOSPHATIDYLCHOLINES AND USES THEREOF
Biblio. Data Description Claims National PhaseNoticesDocuments Latest
bibliographic data on file with the International Bureau
----------------------------------------------------------------------------Pub. No.:    WO/2005/027933    International Application No.:    PCT/
AU2004/001290
Publication Date: 31.03.2005 International Filing Date: 21.09.2004
Chapter 2 Demand Filed: 22.07.2005

IPC: A61K 31/6615 (2006.01), A61K 31/685 (2006.01)
Applicants: THE CORPORATION OF THE TRUSTEES OF THE ORDER OF THE
SISTERS OF MERCY IN QUEENSLAND [AU/AU]; Raymond Terrace, South
Brisbane, Queensland 4101 (AU) (All Except US).
CHEN, Yi [AU/AU]; 15 Love Street, Fairfield, Queensland 4103 (AU) (US
Only).
HILLS, Brian, Andrew [AU/AU]; 29 Peach Treet Close, Alexandra Hills,
Queensland 4161 (AU) (US Only).
Inventors: CHEN, Yi [AU/AU]; 15 Love Street, Fairfield, Queensland
4103 (AU).
HILLS, Brian, Andrew [AU/AU]; 29 Peach Treet Close, Alexandra Hills,
Queensland 4161 (AU).
Agent: HUGHES, E, John, L; Davies Collison Cave, 1 Nicholson Street,
Melbourne, Victoria 3000 (AU).
Priority Data: 2003905186   23.09.2003   AU
2004901087   02.03.2004   AU

Title: UNSATURATED PHOSPHATIDYLCHOLINES AND USES THEREOF

Abstract: The present invention relates generally to a method for
providing formation, ultrafiltration and/or lubrication between two or
more opposing or in contact surfaces. More particularly, the present
invention effects one or more of surface tension reduction anti-stick,
barrier formation, ultrafiltration, lubrication and/or effector of
cellular therapeutic, and regeneration between two or more surfaces by
the application or absorption of an unsaturated phosphatidylcholine
alone or in combination with a saturated phosphatidylcholine. The
present invention further provides compositions comprising unsaturated
phosphatidylcholine species alone or in combination with a saturated
phosphatidylcholine and their use in the treatment and/or prophylaxis
of particular medical conditions such as osteoarthritis, surgical
adhesion, burns injuries, ocular disorders, ultra-filtration failure
in peritoneal dialysis, barrier disorders of the skin and mucosa,
middle ear disorders, as a facilitation of cellular therapeutics and
regenerative medicine and for lubricating interactive surfaces in
artificial joints.

Designated States: AE, AG, AL, AM, AT, AU, AZ, BA, BB, BG, BR, BW, BY,
BZ, CA, CH, CN, CO, CR, CU, CZ, DE, DK, DM, DZ, EC, EE, EG, ES, FI,
GB, GD, GE, GH, GM, HR, HU, ID, IL, IN, IS, JP, KE, KG, KP, KR, KZ,
LC, LK, LR, LS, LT, LU, LV, MA, MD, MG, MK, MN, MW, MX, MZ, NA, NI,
NO, NZ, OM, PG, PH, PL, PT, RO, RU, SC, SD, SE, SG, SK, SL, SY, TJ,
TM, TN, TR, TT, TZ, UA, UG, US, UZ, VC, VN, YU, ZA, ZM, ZW.
African Regional Intellectual Property Org. (ARIPO) (BW, GH, GM, KE,
LS, MW, MZ, NA, SD, SL, SZ, TZ, UG, ZM, ZW)
Eurasian Patent Organization (EAPO) (AM, AZ, BY, KG, KZ, MD, RU, TJ,
TM)
European Patent Office (EPO) (AT, BE, BG, CH, CY, CZ, DE, DK, EE, ES,
FI, FR, GB, GR, HU, IE, IT, LU, MC, NL, PL, PT, RO, SE, SI, SK, TR)
African Intellectual Property Organization (OAPI) (BF, BJ, CF, CG, CI,
CM, GA, GN, GQ, GW, ML, MR, NE, SN, TD, TG).


Who loves ya.
Tom


Jesus Was A Vegetarian!
http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh


Man Is A Herbivore!
http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3


DEAD PEOPLE WALKING
http://tinyurl.com/zk9fk


> On May 26, 10:37 am, tony sayer  wrote:Well there
> we have it!, we're all in need of some Castrol as we're all going
> rusty;!..... <<
>
> It IS just as simple as that .. but spelled different ..
>
> Castor .. oil ..
>
> The iron **selectively** destroys the 'lubricant' around the joints
> and  castor oil is one of many plant oils which contain this lubricant
> and soooo eating it seems to be the way one might replace it.
>
> Lack Of Critical Lubricant Causes Wear In Joints, First-Ever Study
> Finds
> Main Category: Arthritis News
> Article Date: 07 Nov 2007 - 1:00 PST
>
> Mice that don't produce lubricin, a thin film of protein found in the
> cartilage of joints, showed early wear and higher friction in their
> joints, a new study led by Brown University researchers shows.
>
> This link between increased friction and early wear in joints is a
> first; no other team of scientists has proven this association
> before.
> The finding, published in Arthritis & Rheumatism, sheds important
> light on how joints work. The discovery also suggests that lubricin,
> or a close cousin, could be injected directly into hips, knees or
> other joints inflamed from arthritis or injury -- a preventive
> treatment that could reduce the need for painful and costly joint
> replacement surgery.
>
> In an editorial that accompanies the journal article, orthopedics
> researchers from Rush University Medical Center in Chicago call the
> research an "important contribution to the field" and note that the
> use of biomolecules like lubricin to prevent joint wear "could have a
> substantial clinical impact, if successful."
>
> Gregory Jay, M.D, a Rhode Island Hospital emergency physician and an
> associate professor of emergency medicine and engineering at Brown,
> led the research. For 20 years, Jay has studied lubricin's role as a
> "boundary lubricant" by reducing friction between opposing layers of
> cartilage inside joints. In this new work, Jay and his colleagues set
> out to answer the next question: Does reducing friction actually
> prevent wear, or surface damage, in joints?
>
> To find out, Jay and his team studied cartilage from the knees of
> mice
> that don't produce lubricin. Directly after birth, the cartilage was
> smooth. But in as little as two weeks, researchers found, the
> cartilage began to show signs of wear. Under an electron microscope,
> scientists could see that the collagen fibers that cartilage is
> composed of were breaking up, giving the surface a rough, frayed
> appearance. This damage is called wear, an early sign of joint
> disease
> or injury.
>
> Jay and his team then took the work a step further. To better
> understand how lubricin works, they tried to see the structure of the
> film. So they put a tiny bit of the protein under an atomic force
> microscope. At the nanoscale, the molecule appeared as a mesh -- row
> upon row of interlocking fibers -- that could repel a microscope
> probe. This repulsion, created with water and electrical charges,
> shows how lubricin acts as a buffer, keeping opposing layers of
> cartilage apart.
>
> "We demonstrated that lubricin reduces both friction and wear and
> also
> showed how, on a molecular level, it does this work in the body," Jay
> said. "What's exciting are the clinical implications. Arthritis and
> sports injuries damage the joints of thousands of people in the
> United
> States and millions of people worldwide each year. Our aim is to make
> a treatment that can actually prevent wear in the joints."
>
> Through Rhode Island Hospital, Jay has filed two patents on the
> protein and its sequences and, in 2004, helped form Tribologics, a
> biotech company formed out of Rhode Island Hospital. The
> Massaschusetts-based business is developing an injection treatment
> for
> inflamed joints that contains lubricin.
>
> Members of the research team included Jahn Torres, a former Brown
> graduate student in engineering; David Rhee, a former graduate
> student
> at Case Western Reserve University; Heikki Helminen, M.D., and Mika
> Hytinnen, M.D., from the University of Kuopio in Finland; Chung-Ja
> Cha, a research assistant at Rhode Island Hospital; Khaled Elsaid, a
> postdoctoral research fellow at Rhode Island Hospital; Kyung-Suk Kim,
> a professor of engineering at Brown; and Yajun Cui, M.D., and Matthew
> Warman, M.D., of Boston Children's Hospital and Harvard Medical
> School.
>
> The National Institute of Arthritis and Musculoskelatal and Skin
> Diseases funded the work, along with the Academy of Finland, the
> McCutchen Foundation, the Howard Hughes Medical Institute and the
> Burroughs Wellcome Fund.
>
> Source: Wendy Lawton
> Brown University
>
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> J Orthop Surg. 2007 Aug 23;2(1):14 [Epub ahead of print] Links
> Unsaturated phosphatidylcholines lining on the surface of cartilage
> and its possible physiological roles.
> Chen Y, Crawford RW, Oloyede A.
> ABSTRACT:
> BACKGROUND:
> Evidence has strongly indicated that surface-active phospholipid
> (SAPL), or surfactant, lines the surface of cartilage and serves as a
> lubricating agent. Previous clinical study showed that a saturated
> phosphatidylcholine (SPC), dipalmitoyl-phosphatidylcholine (DPPC),
> was
> effective in the treatment of osteoarthritis, however recent studies
> suggested that the dominant SAPL species at some sites outside the
> lung are not SPC, rather, are unsaturated phosphatidylcholine (USPC).
> Some of these USPC have been proven to be good boundary lubricants by
> our previous study, implicating their possible important
> physiological
> roles in joint if their existence can be confirmed. So far, no study
> has been conducted to identify the whole molecule species of
> different
> phosphatidylcholine (PC) classes on the surface of cartilage. In this
> study we identified the dominant PC molecule species on the surface
> of
> cartilage. We also confirmed that some of these PC species possess a
> property of semipermeability.
> METHODS:
> HPLC was used to analyse the PC profile of bovine cartilage samples
> and comparisons of DPPC and USPC were carried out through
> semipermeability tests.
> RESULTS:
> It was confirmed that USPC are the dominant SAPL species on the
> surface of cartilage. In particular, they are Dilinoleoyl-
> phosphatidylcholine (DLPC), Palmitoyl-linoleoyl-phosphatidylcholine,
> (PLPC), Palmitoyl-oleoyl-phosphatidylcholine (POPC) and Stearoyl-
> linoleoyl-phosphatidylcholine (SLPC). The relative content of DPPC (a
> SPC) was only 8%. Two USPC, PLPC and POPC, were capable of generating
> osmotic pressure that is equivalent to that by DPPC.
> CONCLUSIONS:
> The results from the current study confirm vigorously that USPC is
> the
> endogenous species inside the joint as against DPPC thereby
> confirming
> once again that USPC, and not SPC, characterizes the PC species
> distribution at non-lung sites of the body. USPC not only has better
> anti-friction and lubrication properties than DPPC, they also possess
> a level of semipermeability that is equivalent to DPPC. We therefore
> hypothesize that USPC can constitute a possible addition or
> alternative to the current commercially available
> viscosupplementation
> products for the prevention and treatment of osteoarthritis in the
> future.
>
> PMID: 17718898 [PubMed - as supplied by publisher]
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------------------­­­­-----
>
> Who loves ya.
> Tom
>
> Jesus Was A Vegetarian!http://tinyurl.com/2r2nkh
>
> Man Is A Herbivore!http://tinyurl.com/a3cc3
>
> DEAD PEOPLE WALKINGhttp://tinyurl.com/zk9fk
>
>
>
> > >2] Drugs used to treat arthritis commonly are iron binding / iron
> > >targeting .. drugs ..
>
> > >IE: aspirin,indomethacin,sulfasalazine,
>
> > >3] Reduction of iron is recommended in the treatment of gout ..
>
> > >4] Oxidative stress has been shown to be elevated in those with
> > >arthritis and iron reduction is shown to alleviate oxidative stress.
>
> > >5] Iron restricted diet has been shown to alleviate symptoms of
> > >arthritis.
>
> > >6] Introduction of iron rich blood into the joint induces / causes
> > >arthritis
>
> > >7] Introduction of iron into the joint induces / causes arthritis
>
> > >8] Those with diagnosed iron overload have a very high incidence of
> > >arthritis
>
> > >9] Iron levels have recently been recommended to be tested in ALL
> > >those
> > >who manifest unexplained joint pain ..
>
> > >10] The fact they have admitted to inadvertently **killing** millions
> > >of people by not being **able** to diagnose iron levels in the body.
>
> > >IE: malaria patients treated with iron and folic acid
>
> > >11] The fact they have admitted to inadvertently killing Aids
> > >patients
> > >by giving them iron.
>
> > >12] The fact they have only recently found all diabetics to have free
> > >floating unbound iron in their bodies when they had argued there was
> > >no
> > >iron at all.
>
> > >13} Iron accumulates excessively in joints in those with arthritis.
> > >Tom
>
> > Well there we have it!, we're all in need of some Castrol as we're all
> > going rusty;!.....
>
> > --
> > Tony Sayer- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

On Wed, 28 May 2008 6:28:40 -0400, Robin Fairbairns wrote
(in message <g1jc4o$smd$2@gemini.csx.cam.ac.uk>):

>  Michael B  writes:
>> On May 12, 6:31 pm, Nann Bell  wrote:
>>> My brand is psoriatic arthritis and it has affected ligaments from time to
>>> time as well as giving me some inflammation that makes no sense to anyone!
>> 
>> Have you done an elimination diet?
> 
> the op may not have done, but i have.  

The OP posted just before leaving on vacation.  :-)  Yes, i did try the 
elimination diet, back during one of the most severe periods of my arthritis 
- no effect.  I've tried eliminating just one or two types of foods a few 
times since, knowing that I DO have a true food allergy to milk and am 
therefore more susceptible to other food allergies, but no apparent effect 
there either.  But there is STRONG evidence of an auto-immune genetic glitch 
coming from both sides of my family.

psoriatic arthritis (now
> branded, in my case, sero-negative rheumatoid arthritis) tends to
> confuse rheumatologists, simply because it may _not_ present in many
> of the standard tests.

I actually went the other way - Daddy and his mother both had RA and my PA 
resembled that more originally, though we knew I had psoriasis as well.  Down 
the road, it acquired more of the PA characteristics, though of course the 
overlaps and differences of the disease on a genetic level are not yet 
understood.

My labwork almost never reflects the level of inflammaton inmy body and I've 
had some atypical inflammation, which has "helped" me establish relationships 
with several good doctors.  LOL  This just isn't the wayI ever intended on 
fascinating men..... (well, the heme is female, but I only saw her once).

-- 
Nann
remove the Gator cheer to email me
        Change everything. Love & forgive.

On Tue, 27 May 2008 10:11:26 -0400, Joan Carter wrote
(in message ):

> I'm with you on that one, Harv. I have actually kept records of
> wet and dry days and my level of pain. No connection, but when
> the barometer takes a sudden rise or fall I react. Who knows?

I'm that way too.  I actually had more weather related flares in north 
Florida tha I do here because cold fronts would come through, stall out just 
south of us, then return as warm fronts all winter long, keeping the 
barometer in constant flux.  and summer brought severe changes from passing 
hurricanes and tropical storms.  Here, fronts pass through and move on - and 
some of them don't evn hange the barometer that much.
-- 
Nann
remove the Gator cheer to email me
        Change everything. Love & forgive.

"ironjustice"  wrote in message 
news:52bb9857-8ed1-4479-9a8e-9cdccdc4c873@m45g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
On Apr 27, 10:49 am, "A M Jackson"  wrote:my left
middle fingers middle and bottom joints around the knuckle areas, <<

http://www.toomuchiron.ca/disorder/faqs.php

"Aching joints, especially in the knuckle and first joint of the first
and second fingers"


Who loves ya.
Tom

OK. Tom. My aching joints is the thumb and index fingers.
Second and bottom joints. No problem with first joint.
But I will ask my Kaiser doctor to include this in my next blood test.

Thank you.