I have just been scanning the 'net' and came across this bit of news, I do 
not know when it was announced. Should anyone know more could you drop us 
all a note? I currently own two scooters, one complete with weather canopy 
for use around my home town no matter the weather. The second has a hitch 
attached to enable it to be picked up by the electric hoist and lifted into 
my car for days out. Both were bought second hand I would not like folk to 
think I am roling in money...if only LOL. Also does anyone have suggestions 
for insuring my scooters? Ta.

Sorry folks I forgot to include the news D'oh! Here it is sorry;

Mobility scooters may soon have an increase in their prices after a change 
in their tax classifications to leisure vehicles by Brussels.
This new decision will put mobility scooters in the same class as gold 
buggies and racing cars. This will result in extra import duties payable for 
mobility scooters made outside the European Union.
Age Concern have urged ministers to fight the move, which is likely to add 
£200 to the average £2,500 cost of the scooters, as importers pass on the 
duty charge.

Manufacturers also fear that it may also lead to a change in their zero 
rating for VAT.
 "Classifying all mobility scooters as leisure vehicles is ludicrous. They 
can be a vital tool to keep older people independent and mobile. A mobility 
scooter can make the difference between someone staying in their home or 
ending up in a care home.
"If scooters are to be made affordable for those who need them, the UK 
Government must put pressure on the EU to totally rethink this policy." 
Gordon Lishman, director-general of Age Concern.


Once again ta

On 19 Jul, 18:42, "cyberwraith"  wrote:
> Sorry folks I forgot to include the news D'oh! Here it is sorry;
>
> Mobility scooters may soon have an increase in their prices after a change
> in their tax classifications to leisure vehicles by Brussels.
> This new decision will put mobility scooters in the same class as gold
> buggies and racing cars. This will result in extra import duties payable for
> mobility scooters made outside the European Union.
> Age Concern have urged ministers to fight the move, which is likely to add
> £200 to the average £2,500 cost of the scooters, as importers pass on the
> duty charge.
>
> Manufacturers also fear that it may also lead to a change in their zero
> rating for VAT.
>  "Classifying all mobility scooters as leisure vehicles is ludicrous. They
> can be a vital tool to keep older people independent and mobile. A mobility
> scooter can make the difference between someone staying in their home or
> ending up in a care home.
> "If scooters are to be made affordable for those who need them, the UK
> Government must put pressure on the EU to totally rethink this policy."
> Gordon Lishman, director-general of Age Concern.
>
> Once again ta

Hmmmm......
This extra cost would presumably only apply to scooters made outside
the EU.
Not so sure about the problem of them being leisure vehicles. How do
they compare to cars, for example, in the help they give and the need
they fulfil?
I can't use one so I'm not sure of the effects of having one. I'm not
saying they shouldn't be classed as leisure vehicle, just asking.


Martin  <><

wrote in message 
news:ec9bf684-8319-4d5f-bf49-ccba32f7bec6@d45g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
On 19 Jul, 18:42, "cyberwraith"  wrote:
> Sorry folks I forgot to include the news D'oh! Here it is sorry;
>
> Mobility scooters may soon have an increase in their prices after a change
> in their tax classifications to leisure vehicles by Brussels.
> This new decision will put mobility scooters in the same class as gold
> buggies and racing cars. This will result in extra import duties payable 
> for
> mobility scooters made outside the European Union.
> Age Concern have urged ministers to fight the move, which is likely to add
> £200 to the average £2,500 cost of the scooters, as importers pass on the
> duty charge.
>
> Manufacturers also fear that it may also lead to a change in their zero
> rating for VAT.
> "Classifying all mobility scooters as leisure vehicles is ludicrous. They
> can be a vital tool to keep older people independent and mobile. A 
> mobility
> scooter can make the difference between someone staying in their home or
> ending up in a care home.
> "If scooters are to be made affordable for those who need them, the UK
> Government must put pressure on the EU to totally rethink this policy."
> Gordon Lishman, director-general of Age Concern.
>
> Once again ta

Hmmmm......
This extra cost would presumably only apply to scooters made outside
the EU.
Not so sure about the problem of them being leisure vehicles. How do
they compare to cars, for example, in the help they give and the need
they fulfil?
I can't use one so I'm not sure of the effects of having one. I'm not
saying they shouldn't be classed as leisure vehicle, just asking.


Martin  <><

Well to answer:

Without one my life would be really interesting sitting in front of the TV 
all day and night.
With one I can be sent to the local shops, or go where I want, without the 
feeling of being a burden on a pusher.

Quality of life:   With 1000%     Without 1%.
Leisure=Yes      Pleasure=Yes      Essentual=Absolutely

Richard

On 22 Jul, 06:07, "Richard Jenkin" 
wrote:
>  wrote in message
>
> news:ec9bf684-8319-4d5f-bf49-ccba32f7bec6@d45g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
> On 19 Jul, 18:42, "cyberwraith"  wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Sorry folks I forgot to include the news D'oh! Here it is sorry;
>
> > Mobility scooters may soon have an increase in their prices after a change
> > in their tax classifications to leisure vehicles by Brussels.
> > This new decision will put mobility scooters in the same class as gold
> > buggies and racing cars. This will result in extra import duties payable
> > for
> > mobility scooters made outside the European Union.
> > Age Concern have urged ministers to fight the move, which is likely to add
> > £200 to the average £2,500 cost of the scooters, as importers pass on the
> > duty charge.
>
> > Manufacturers also fear that it may also lead to a change in their zero
> > rating for VAT.
> > "Classifying all mobility scooters as leisure vehicles is ludicrous. They
> > can be a vital tool to keep older people independent and mobile. A
> > mobility
> > scooter can make the difference between someone staying in their home or
> > ending up in a care home.
> > "If scooters are to be made affordable for those who need them, the UK
> > Government must put pressure on the EU to totally rethink this policy."
> > Gordon Lishman, director-general of Age Concern.
>
> > Once again ta
>
> Hmmmm......
> This extra cost would presumably only apply to scooters made outside
> the EU.
> Not so sure about the problem of them being leisure vehicles. How do
> they compare to cars, for example, in the help they give and the need
> they fulfil?
> I can't use one so I'm not sure of the effects of having one. I'm not
> saying they shouldn't be classed as leisure vehicle, just asking.
>
> Martin  <><
>
> Well to answer:
>
> Without one my life would be really interesting sitting in front of the TV
> all day and night.
> With one I can be sent to the local shops, or go where I want, without the
> feeling of being a burden on a pusher.
>
> Quality of life:   With 1000%     Without 1%.
> Leisure=Yes      Pleasure=Yes      Essentual=Absolutely
>
> Richard- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

So in other words, its rather like having a car for some people?

Martin  <><

wrote in message 
news:1d6e8d2f-172a-4130-bd1a-104def5c364d@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
On 22 Jul, 06:07, "Richard Jenkin" 
wrote:
>  wrote in message
>
> news:ec9bf684-8319-4d5f-bf49-ccba32f7bec6@d45g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
> On 19 Jul, 18:42, "cyberwraith"  wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> > Sorry folks I forgot to include the news D'oh! Here it is sorry;
>
> > Mobility scooters may soon have an increase in their prices after a 
> > change
> > in their tax classifications to leisure vehicles by Brussels.
> > This new decision will put mobility scooters in the same class as gold
> > buggies and racing cars. This will result in extra import duties payable
> > for
> > mobility scooters made outside the European Union.
> > Age Concern have urged ministers to fight the move, which is likely to 
> > add
> > £200 to the average £2,500 cost of the scooters, as importers pass on 
> > the
> > duty charge.
>
> > Manufacturers also fear that it may also lead to a change in their zero
> > rating for VAT.
> > "Classifying all mobility scooters as leisure vehicles is ludicrous. 
> > They
> > can be a vital tool to keep older people independent and mobile. A
> > mobility
> > scooter can make the difference between someone staying in their home or
> > ending up in a care home.
> > "If scooters are to be made affordable for those who need them, the UK
> > Government must put pressure on the EU to totally rethink this policy."
> > Gordon Lishman, director-general of Age Concern.
>
> > Once again ta
>
> Hmmmm......
> This extra cost would presumably only apply to scooters made outside
> the EU.
> Not so sure about the problem of them being leisure vehicles. How do
> they compare to cars, for example, in the help they give and the need
> they fulfil?
> I can't use one so I'm not sure of the effects of having one. I'm not
> saying they shouldn't be classed as leisure vehicle, just asking.
>
> Martin <><
>
> Well to answer:
>
> Without one my life would be really interesting sitting in front of the TV
> all day and night.
> With one I can be sent to the local shops, or go where I want, without the
> feeling of being a burden on a pusher.
>
> Quality of life: With 1000% Without 1%.
> Leisure=Yes Pleasure=Yes Essentual=Absolutely
>
> Richard- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

So in other words, its rather like having a car for some people?

Martin  <><

I suppose you could say that. Personally I use the scooter to enable me to 
get into my home town as it has been pedestrianised and walking is not an 
option. In fact that is pretty much the reason I got one. I no longer have 
to wait for folk to come with me as I would with a wheelchair, I can go all 
day shopping, around country parks. Honestly the scooter has given me my 
independance back and I am very grateful for that.

On 22 Jul, 22:47, "cyberwraith"  wrote:
>  wrote in message
>
> news:1d6e8d2f-172a-4130-bd1a-104def5c364d@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> On 22 Jul, 06:07, "Richard Jenkin" 
> wrote:
>
>
>
>
>
> >  wrote in message
>
> >news:ec9bf684-8319-4d5f-bf49-ccba32f7bec6@d45g2000hsc.googlegroups.com..> > On 19 Jul, 18:42, "cyberwraith"  wrote:
>
> > > Sorry folks I forgot to include the news D'oh! Here it is sorry;
>
> > > Mobility scooters may soon have an increase in their prices after a
> > > change
> > > in their tax classifications to leisure vehicles by Brussels.
> > > This new decision will put mobility scooters in the same class as gold
> > > buggies and racing cars. This will result in extra import duties payable
> > > for
> > > mobility scooters made outside the European Union.
> > > Age Concern have urged ministers to fight the move, which is likely to
> > > add
> > > £200 to the average £2,500 cost of the scooters, as importers pass on
> > > the
> > > duty charge.
>
> > > Manufacturers also fear that it may also lead to a change in their zero
> > > rating for VAT.
> > > "Classifying all mobility scooters as leisure vehicles is ludicrous.
> > > They
> > > can be a vital tool to keep older people independent and mobile. A
> > > mobility
> > > scooter can make the difference between someone staying in their home or
> > > ending up in a care home.
> > > "If scooters are to be made affordable for those who need them, the UK
> > > Government must put pressure on the EU to totally rethink this policy> > > Gordon Lishman, director-general of Age Concern.
>
> > > Once again ta
>
> > Hmmmm......
> > This extra cost would presumably only apply to scooters made outside
> > the EU.
> > Not so sure about the problem of them being leisure vehicles. How do
> > they compare to cars, for example, in the help they give and the need
> > they fulfil?
> > I can't use one so I'm not sure of the effects of having one. I'm not
> > saying they shouldn't be classed as leisure vehicle, just asking.
>
> > Martin <><
>
> > Well to answer:
>
> > Without one my life would be really interesting sitting in front of the TV
> > all day and night.
> > With one I can be sent to the local shops, or go where I want, without the
> > feeling of being a burden on a pusher.
>
> > Quality of life: With 1000% Without 1%.
> > Leisure=Yes Pleasure=Yes Essentual=Absolutely
>
> > Richard- Hide quoted text -
>
> > - Show quoted text -
>
> So in other words, its rather like having a car for some people?
>
> Martin  <><
>
> I suppose you could say that. Personally I use the scooter to enable me to
> get into my home town as it has been pedestrianised and walking is not an
> option. In fact that is pretty much the reason I got one. I no longer have
> to wait for folk to come with me as I would with a wheelchair, I can go all
> day shopping, around country parks. Honestly the scooter has given me my
> independance back and I am very grateful for that.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I suspect its one of these things where different people have
different needs. Some will be able to handle a scooter but not a
wheelchair. Some can handle both. Some a wheelchair but not a scooter.
And some neither.
I for one would be much happier if the scooters weren't all scooting
around at top speed in a crowded area (shopping centre, main shopping
street, narrow pavement etc).
But thats an issue of speed and safety - not leisure.  :)

Martin  <><

"cyberwraith"  wrote in message 
news:6zshk.3203$5O6.229@newsfe14.ams2...
>
>  wrote in message 
> news:1d6e8d2f-172a-4130-bd1a-104def5c364d@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
> On 22 Jul, 06:07, "Richard Jenkin" 
> wrote:
>>  wrote in message
>>
>> news:ec9bf684-8319-4d5f-bf49-ccba32f7bec6@d45g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>> On 19 Jul, 18:42, "cyberwraith"  wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > Sorry folks I forgot to include the news D'oh! Here it is sorry;
>>
>> > Mobility scooters may soon have an increase in their prices after a 
>> > change
>> > in their tax classifications to leisure vehicles by Brussels.
>> > This new decision will put mobility scooters in the same class as gold
>> > buggies and racing cars. This will result in extra import duties 
>> > payable
>> > for
>> > mobility scooters made outside the European Union.
>> > Age Concern have urged ministers to fight the move, which is likely to 
>> > add
>> > £200 to the average £2,500 cost of the scooters, as importers pass on 
>> > the
>> > duty charge.
>>
>> > Manufacturers also fear that it may also lead to a change in their zero
>> > rating for VAT.
>> > "Classifying all mobility scooters as leisure vehicles is ludicrous. 
>> > They
>> > can be a vital tool to keep older people independent and mobile. A
>> > mobility
>> > scooter can make the difference between someone staying in their home 
>> > or
>> > ending up in a care home.
>> > "If scooters are to be made affordable for those who need them, the UK
>> > Government must put pressure on the EU to totally rethink this policy."
>> > Gordon Lishman, director-general of Age Concern.
>>
>> > Once again ta
>>
>> Hmmmm......
>> This extra cost would presumably only apply to scooters made outside
>> the EU.
>> Not so sure about the problem of them being leisure vehicles. How do
>> they compare to cars, for example, in the help they give and the need
>> they fulfil?
>> I can't use one so I'm not sure of the effects of having one. I'm not
>> saying they shouldn't be classed as leisure vehicle, just asking.
>>
>> Martin <><
>>
>> Well to answer:
>>
>> Without one my life would be really interesting sitting in front of the 
>> TV
>> all day and night.
>> With one I can be sent to the local shops, or go where I want, without 
>> the
>> feeling of being a burden on a pusher.
>>
>> Quality of life: With 1000% Without 1%.
>> Leisure=Yes Pleasure=Yes Essentual=Absolutely
>>
>> Richard- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> So in other words, its rather like having a car for some people?
>
> Martin  <><
>
> I suppose you could say that. Personally I use the scooter to enable me to 
> get into my home town as it has been pedestrianised and walking is not an 
> option. In fact that is pretty much the reason I got one. I no longer have 
> to wait for folk to come with me as I would with a wheelchair, I can go 
> all day shopping, around country parks. Honestly the scooter has given me 
> my independance back and I am very grateful for that.
>


But the problem is that a lot of people that are just lazy/fat and not 
disabled use them too. And in many cases pretty rudely! The public see them 
drive into shopping centres etc and then walk into a shop or resturant - if 
they can be bothered.... The public also dont seem to differentiate between 
scooters and powerchairs meaning that the true essential powerchair user 
gets tarred with the same brush... Given time and no controls there will be 
more and more of them racing around the pavements and shopping centres as 
the lazy realise they can have one too. Its already happening here..

I really think there should be some type of fairly tough test to 
differentiate them. That way "they" can pay the tax and we dont have too. 
And it should be higher.

On 23 Jul, 10:37, "Burgerman"  wrote:
> "cyberwraith"  wrote in message
>
> news:6zshk.3203$5O6.229@newsfe14.ams2...
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >  wrote in message
> >news:1d6e8d2f-172a-4130-bd1a-104def5c364d@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com..> > On 22 Jul, 06:07, "Richard Jenkin" 
> > wrote:
> >>  wrote in message
>
> >>news:ec9bf684-8319-4d5f-bf49-ccba32f7bec6@d45g2000hsc.googlegroups.com.> >> On 19 Jul, 18:42, "cyberwraith"  wrote:
>
> >> > Sorry folks I forgot to include the news D'oh! Here it is sorry;
>
> >> > Mobility scooters may soon have an increase in their prices after a
> >> > change
> >> > in their tax classifications to leisure vehicles by Brussels.
> >> > This new decision will put mobility scooters in the same class as gold
> >> > buggies and racing cars. This will result in extra import duties
> >> > payable
> >> > for
> >> > mobility scooters made outside the European Union.
> >> > Age Concern have urged ministers to fight the move, which is likely to
> >> > add
> >> > £200 to the average £2,500 cost of the scooters, as importers pass on
> >> > the
> >> > duty charge.
>
> >> > Manufacturers also fear that it may also lead to a change in their zero
> >> > rating for VAT.
> >> > "Classifying all mobility scooters as leisure vehicles is ludicrous.
> >> > They
> >> > can be a vital tool to keep older people independent and mobile. A
> >> > mobility
> >> > scooter can make the difference between someone staying in their home
> >> > or
> >> > ending up in a care home.
> >> > "If scooters are to be made affordable for those who need them, the UK
> >> > Government must put pressure on the EU to totally rethink this policy."
> >> > Gordon Lishman, director-general of Age Concern.
>
> >> > Once again ta
>
> >> Hmmmm......
> >> This extra cost would presumably only apply to scooters made outside
> >> the EU.
> >> Not so sure about the problem of them being leisure vehicles. How do
> >> they compare to cars, for example, in the help they give and the need
> >> they fulfil?
> >> I can't use one so I'm not sure of the effects of having one. I'm not
> >> saying they shouldn't be classed as leisure vehicle, just asking.
>
> >> Martin <><
>
> >> Well to answer:
>
> >> Without one my life would be really interesting sitting in front of the
> >> TV
> >> all day and night.
> >> With one I can be sent to the local shops, or go where I want, without
> >> the
> >> feeling of being a burden on a pusher.
>
> >> Quality of life: With 1000% Without 1%.
> >> Leisure=Yes Pleasure=Yes Essentual=Absolutely
>
> >> Richard- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > So in other words, its rather like having a car for some people?
>
> > Martin  <><
>
> > I suppose you could say that. Personally I use the scooter to enable me to
> > get into my home town as it has been pedestrianised and walking is not an
> > option. In fact that is pretty much the reason I got one. I no longer have
> > to wait for folk to come with me as I would with a wheelchair, I can go
> > all day shopping, around country parks. Honestly the scooter has given me
> > my independance back and I am very grateful for that.
>
> But the problem is that a lot of people that are just lazy/fat and not
> disabled use them too. And in many cases pretty rudely! The public see them
> drive into shopping centres etc and then walk into a shop or resturant - if
> they can be bothered.... The public also dont seem to differentiate between
> scooters and powerchairs meaning that the true essential powerchair user
> gets tarred with the same brush... Given time and no controls there will be
> more and more of them racing around the pavements and shopping centres as
> the lazy realise they can have one too. Its already happening here..
>
> I really think there should be some type of fairly tough test to
> differentiate them. That way "they" can pay the tax and we dont have too.
> And it should be higher.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Hmmm...yes. Anyone can hire a scooter - more than once I've known able-
bodied hire one to take in the car and pick Grandma up.

Martin  <><

On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 10:37:04 +0100, Burgerman wrote:

> "cyberwraith"  wrote in message 
> news:6zshk.3203$5O6.229@newsfe14.ams2...
>>
>>  wrote in message 
>> news:1d6e8d2f-172a-4130-bd1a-104def5c364d@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>> On 22 Jul, 06:07, "Richard Jenkin" 
>> wrote:
>>>  wrote in message
>>>
>>> news:ec9bf684-8319-4d5f-bf49-ccba32f7bec6@d45g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>>> On 19 Jul, 18:42, "cyberwraith"  wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> > Sorry folks I forgot to include the news D'oh! Here it is sorry;
>>>
>>> > Mobility scooters may soon have an increase in their prices after a 
>>> > change
>>> > in their tax classifications to leisure vehicles by Brussels.
>>> > This new decision will put mobility scooters in the same class as gold
>>> > buggies and racing cars. This will result in extra import duties 
>>> > payable
>>> > for
>>> > mobility scooters made outside the European Union.
>>> > Age Concern have urged ministers to fight the move, which is likely to 
>>> > add
>>> > £200 to the average £2,500 cost of the scooters, as importers pass on 
>>> > the
>>> > duty charge.
>>>
>>> > Manufacturers also fear that it may also lead to a change in their zero
>>> > rating for VAT.
>>> > "Classifying all mobility scooters as leisure vehicles is ludicrous. 
>>> > They
>>> > can be a vital tool to keep older people independent and mobile. A
>>> > mobility
>>> > scooter can make the difference between someone staying in their home 
>>> > or
>>> > ending up in a care home.
>>> > "If scooters are to be made affordable for those who need them, the UK
>>> > Government must put pressure on the EU to totally rethink this policy."
>>> > Gordon Lishman, director-general of Age Concern.
>>>
>>> > Once again ta
>>>
>>> Hmmmm......
>>> This extra cost would presumably only apply to scooters made outside
>>> the EU.
>>> Not so sure about the problem of them being leisure vehicles. How do
>>> they compare to cars, for example, in the help they give and the need
>>> they fulfil?
>>> I can't use one so I'm not sure of the effects of having one. I'm not
>>> saying they shouldn't be classed as leisure vehicle, just asking.
>>>
>>> Martin <><
>>>
>>> Well to answer:
>>>
>>> Without one my life would be really interesting sitting in front of the 
>>> TV
>>> all day and night.
>>> With one I can be sent to the local shops, or go where I want, without 
>>> the
>>> feeling of being a burden on a pusher.
>>>
>>> Quality of life: With 1000% Without 1%.
>>> Leisure=Yes Pleasure=Yes Essentual=Absolutely
>>>
>>> Richard- Hide quoted text -
>>>
>>> - Show quoted text -
>>
>> So in other words, its rather like having a car for some people?
>>
>> Martin  <><
>>
>> I suppose you could say that. Personally I use the scooter to enable me to 
>> get into my home town as it has been pedestrianised and walking is not an 
>> option. In fact that is pretty much the reason I got one. I no longer have 
>> to wait for folk to come with me as I would with a wheelchair, I can go 
>> all day shopping, around country parks. Honestly the scooter has given me 
>> my independance back and I am very grateful for that.
>>
> 
> 
> But the problem is that a lot of people that are just lazy/fat and not 
> disabled use them too. And in many cases pretty rudely! The public see them 
> drive into shopping centres etc and then walk into a shop or resturant - if 
> they can be bothered.... 

Hmmm, now what could be clouding your vision.....

I don't use a scooter or powerchair, but my walking range is little more
than 100yds before I have to stop and sit to ease the pain. That tends to
mean these days that I plan my outings around not travelling too far from
my car and where I know I can sit and rest frequently. Probably foolish
pride on my part, given how little I can walk, but I happen to have this
notion that if I did take to a scooter or wheel chair as a permanent thing,
I'd very quickly lose what little walking range I do have, even if it does
get bloody painful.

The only time I used a powerchair was when I went to visit the Eden Project
- I could *never* have walked around the whole complex, but when it came to
stopping for a morning coffee I parked up the chair and walked the few
steps to the servery with my wife, and thence to a table. Would you
castigate me for actually walking a few steps?

> The public also dont seem to differentiate between 
> scooters and powerchairs meaning that the true essential powerchair user 
> gets tarred with the same brush... Given time and no controls there will be 
> more and more of them racing around the pavements and shopping centres as 
> the lazy realise they can have one too. Its already happening here..

I can think of a large number of quite elderly people who are extremely
limited with their mobility but who see the availability of scooters as a
means of giving them some mobility again.
 
> I really think there should be some type of fairly tough test to 
> differentiate them. That way "they" can pay the tax and we dont have too. 
> And it should be higher.

Why not exempt those who are in receipt of the HRMA? It's simple and does
away with the need for further tests.

What there should be is some form of proficiency testing before *anyone* is
let lose with a powered chair or scooter.

-- 
the dot wanderer at tesco dot net

On 23 Jul, 11:56, The Wanderer  wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 10:37:04 퍝, Burgerman wrote:
> > "cyberwraith"  wrote in message
> >news:6zshk.3203$5O6.229@newsfe14.ams2...
>
> >>  wrote in message
> >>news:1d6e8d2f-172a-4130-bd1a-104def5c364d@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com.> >> On 22 Jul, 06:07, "Richard Jenkin" 
> >> wrote:
> >>>  wrote in message
>
> >>>news:ec9bf684-8319-4d5f-bf49-ccba32f7bec6@d45g2000hsc.googlegroups.com> >>> On 19 Jul, 18:42, "cyberwraith"  wrote:
>
> >>> > Sorry folks I forgot to include the news D'oh! Here it is sorry;
>
> >>> > Mobility scooters may soon have an increase in their prices after a
> >>> > change
> >>> > in their tax classifications to leisure vehicles by Brussels.
> >>> > This new decision will put mobility scooters in the same class as gold
> >>> > buggies and racing cars. This will result in extra import duties
> >>> > payable
> >>> > for
> >>> > mobility scooters made outside the European Union.
> >>> > Age Concern have urged ministers to fight the move, which is likely to
> >>> > add
> >>> > £200 to the average £2,500 cost of the scooters, as importers pass on
> >>> > the
> >>> > duty charge.
>
> >>> > Manufacturers also fear that it may also lead to a change in their zero
> >>> > rating for VAT.
> >>> > "Classifying all mobility scooters as leisure vehicles is ludicrous> >>> > They
> >>> > can be a vital tool to keep older people independent and mobile. A
> >>> > mobility
> >>> > scooter can make the difference between someone staying in their home
> >>> > or
> >>> > ending up in a care home.
> >>> > "If scooters are to be made affordable for those who need them, the UK
> >>> > Government must put pressure on the EU to totally rethink this policy."
> >>> > Gordon Lishman, director-general of Age Concern.
>
> >>> > Once again ta
>
> >>> Hmmmm......
> >>> This extra cost would presumably only apply to scooters made outside
> >>> the EU.
> >>> Not so sure about the problem of them being leisure vehicles. How do
> >>> they compare to cars, for example, in the help they give and the need
> >>> they fulfil?
> >>> I can't use one so I'm not sure of the effects of having one. I'm not
> >>> saying they shouldn't be classed as leisure vehicle, just asking.
>
> >>> Martin <><
>
> >>> Well to answer:
>
> >>> Without one my life would be really interesting sitting in front of the
> >>> TV
> >>> all day and night.
> >>> With one I can be sent to the local shops, or go where I want, without
> >>> the
> >>> feeling of being a burden on a pusher.
>
> >>> Quality of life: With 1000% Without 1%.
> >>> Leisure=Yes Pleasure=Yes Essentual=Absolutely
>
> >>> Richard- Hide quoted text -
>
> >>> - Show quoted text -
>
> >> So in other words, its rather like having a car for some people?
>
> >> Martin  <><
>
> >> I suppose you could say that. Personally I use the scooter to enable me to
> >> get into my home town as it has been pedestrianised and walking is not an
> >> option. In fact that is pretty much the reason I got one. I no longer have
> >> to wait for folk to come with me as I would with a wheelchair, I can go
> >> all day shopping, around country parks. Honestly the scooter has given me
> >> my independance back and I am very grateful for that.
>
> > But the problem is that a lot of people that are just lazy/fat and not
> > disabled use them too. And in many cases pretty rudely! The public see them
> > drive into shopping centres etc and then walk into a shop or resturant - if
> > they can be bothered....
>
> Hmmm, now what could be clouding your vision.....
>
> I don't use a scooter or powerchair, but my walking range is little more
> than 100yds before I have to stop and sit to ease the pain. That tends to
> mean these days that I plan my outings around not travelling too far from
> my car and where I know I can sit and rest frequently. Probably foolish
> pride on my part, given how little I can walk, but I happen to have this
> notion that if I did take to a scooter or wheel chair as a permanent thing,
> I'd very quickly lose what little walking range I do have, even if it does
> get bloody painful.
>
> The only time I used a powerchair was when I went to visit the Eden Project
> - I could *never* have walked around the whole complex, but when it came to
> stopping for a morning coffee I parked up the chair and walked the few
> steps to the servery with my wife, and thence to a table. Would you
> castigate me for actually walking a few steps?
>
> > The public also dont seem to differentiate between
> > scooters and powerchairs meaning that the true essential powerchair user
> > gets tarred with the same brush... Given time and no controls there will be
> > more and more of them racing around the pavements and shopping centres as
> > the lazy realise they can have one too. Its already happening here..
>
> I can think of a large number of quite elderly people who are extremely
> limited with their mobility but who see the availability of scooters as a
> means of giving them some mobility again.
>
> > I really think there should be some type of fairly tough test to
> > differentiate them. That way "they" can pay the tax and we dont have too.
> > And it should be higher.
>
> Why not exempt those who are in receipt of the HRMA? It's simple and does
> away with the need for further tests.
>
> What there should be is some form of proficiency testing before *anyone* is
> let lose with a powered chair or scooter.
>
> --
> the dot wanderer at tesco dot net- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

What you've mentioned about losing your walking range is quite common.
For many people (including myself), once you accept the help an aid
can bring you end up relying on the aid.
I made the mistake of starting to use a walking stick, now I can't go
more than a few steps out without it - and effectively means I'm one-
handed now.
Still, allows for faster movement than I did have. And greater range
of travel. Now if only I could avoid flying down the length of the bus
when it pulls away.......   :)

Martin  <><

On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 10:37:04 +0100, "Burgerman" 
wrote:

>But the problem is that a lot of people that are just lazy/fat and not 
>disabled use them too. And in many cases pretty rudely! The public see them 
>drive into shopping centres etc and then walk into a shop or resturant - if 
>they can be bothered....

It's not always easy to decide from outward appearances whether people
need their scooters or not.

I hire an electric scooter when I go to the Metrocentre because a heart
condition, together with arthritis makes it difficult for me to walk
more than 50 feet or so without having a rest, and yes, I *am* fat
because the last 10 years have destroyed the lifelong fitness I had
maintained before that, but apart from the stick I use, people cannot
tell that anything is wrong with me unless they catch me gasping for
air, which doesn't happen when I hire a scooter.

And yes, I *do* walk into restaurants, leaving the wheelchair outside
because it takes up too much room.

And since I'veben finally diagnosed with a heart failure condition, I
shall buy one of my own as soon as I can afford it.

I personally find that the greatest problem with driving a scooter is
that the instant I get into it, I appear to become invisible to the
general public who behave either as if I'm not there at all, or who
imagine that the scooter can stop dead, which it can, fortunately, but
not without jarring my body unpleasantly, or even that I'm such an
encumbrance in their busy lives that it's OK to jump across my feet in
order to save a millisecond.
-- 
"It's easier to get forgiveness than permission."
Rear Admiral "Amazing" Grace Hopper

<x{yz}enophil44@hotmail.com> wrote in message 
news:m89e84hld5kaq4ftd9ajmr6p3v5o5ak1l4@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 10:37:04 +0100, "Burgerman" 
> wrote:
>
>>But the problem is that a lot of people that are just lazy/fat and not
>>disabled use them too. And in many cases pretty rudely! The public see 
>>them
>>drive into shopping centres etc and then walk into a shop or resturant - 
>>if
>>they can be bothered....
>
> It's not always easy to decide from outward appearances whether people
> need their scooters or not.
>
> I hire an electric scooter when I go to the Metrocentre because a heart
> condition, together with arthritis makes it difficult for me to walk
> more than 50 feet or so without having a rest, and yes, I *am* fat
> because the last 10 years have destroyed the lifelong fitness I had
> maintained before that, but apart from the stick I use, people cannot
> tell that anything is wrong with me unless they catch me gasping for
> air, which doesn't happen when I hire a scooter.
>
> And yes, I *do* walk into restaurants, leaving the wheelchair outside
> because it takes up too much room.
>
> And since I'veben finally diagnosed with a heart failure condition, I
> shall buy one of my own as soon as I can afford it.
>
> I personally find that the greatest problem with driving a scooter is
> that the instant I get into it, I appear to become invisible to the
> general public who behave either as if I'm not there at all, or who
> imagine that the scooter can stop dead, which it can, fortunately, but
> not without jarring my body unpleasantly, or even that I'm such an
> encumbrance in their busy lives that it's OK to jump across my feet in
> order to save a millisecond.
> -- 
> "It's easier to get forgiveness than permission."
> Rear Admiral "Amazing" Grace Hopper

Right before I forget here is the official reply received this morning from 
DVLA;
Thank you for your email.

It may be helpful if I start by explaining that all vehicle registration and 
taxing is governed by the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994 (VERA). 
The Act specifies that all mechanically propelled vehicles must be 
registered and taxed. Accordingly all motorised wheel chairs and scooters 
should be registered and taxed. However, although there is no legal 
exemption from registration for class 2 or class 3 vehicles, on an extra 
statutory basis, we do not register and tax class 2 carriages on the basis 
that their road use is very limited and their speed restricted to 4 mph.

Basically then, class 3 invalid carriages i.e. those capable of speeds 
between 4 and 8 mph should be registered and taxed in the Disabled taxation 
class in accordance with schedule 2(18) of VERA.

In order to register and tax the vehicle you would need to either post or 
take an application to your DVLA Local Office (addresses on the website 
address below).  The form you would need is called a V55/5, available at the 
DVLA office or I can send one to you.  You would also need to submit 
evidence of the vehicle's age.

Please note:

  a.. There is no registration fee
  b.. a nil duty tax disc will be issued and need to be displayed
  c.. Insurance is not a legal requirement, however, it is strongly 
recommended that you obtain some
  d.. number plates do NOT need to be displayed
I trust I have now clarified the position for you.  If you would like me to 
send you the V55/5 form, please email me your full name and postal address 
and I will send one to you.



I have to agree with the comments concerning riders of these scooters being 
dangerous and unconcerned with other pathway users. I have talked to a 
couple in my home town who seem to think that using them at 8mph on the path 
in crowds is OK! Personally I drive according to the situation, suppose it 
comes from being a car driver? After saying that I know a few others who are 
good drivers, like cars it takes all sorts. I have a 6mph scooter which as 
the above reply shows 'needs' to be taxed, but my 4mph model does not. No 
matter which I am using I always drive around according to the situation. I 
also agree with the comments about scooters becoming 'invisible' to other 
path users. The amount of times I have been walked across, pushed back, 
knocked, stood on, ran at, and every time it has always been 'my' 
fault...ahem. Admittedly one afternoon of many such incidents I did get to 
the point when I thought stuff this for a game of soldiers and retaliated 
right back. I now have a 'bumper' sticker on the scooter saying "watch yer 
ankles". About buying a scooter I have always used ebay and bought second 
hand scooters. Saves literally thousands of pounds against a brand new one. 
My blue 4mph scooter cost me £350 off ebay and that includes the diesel 
going to get it from Cardiff. The red scooter which is the newer 6mph 
complete with weather canopy, suspension etc cost me £700 delivered from a 
seller in London. My first scooter cost me £68 and is still running happily 
for my mates mum! Yes like buying a second hand car you have to use your 
head and ask questions, such as "what condition are the batteries in" these 
can be expensive.Also ask about the tyres. A good seller will already have 
this info on the auction either in description form or photographic form. I 
have also used my scooter to visit my brother 5 miles away in the next town. 
In these days of rising costs I think that may become the norm.

"The Wanderer"  wrote in message 
news:bz0gmm2rf0si$.nekdyvj09grn.dlg@40tude.net...
> On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 10:37:04 +0100, Burgerman wrote:
>
>> "cyberwraith"  wrote in message
>> news:6zshk.3203$5O6.229@newsfe14.ams2...
>>>
>>>  wrote in message
>>> news:1d6e8d2f-172a-4130-bd1a-104def5c364d@s50g2000hsb.googlegroups.com...
>>> On 22 Jul, 06:07, "Richard Jenkin" 
>>> wrote:
>>>>  wrote in message
>>>>
>>>> news:ec9bf684-8319-4d5f-bf49-ccba32f7bec6@d45g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>>>> On 19 Jul, 18:42, "cyberwraith"  wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> > Sorry folks I forgot to include the news D'oh! Here it is sorry;
>>>>
>>>> > Mobility scooters may soon have an increase in their prices after a
>>>> > change
>>>> > in their tax classifications to leisure vehicles by Brussels.
>>>> > This new decision will put mobility scooters in the same class as 
>>>> > gold
>>>> > buggies and racing cars. This will result in extra import duties
>>>> > payable
>>>> > for
>>>> > mobility scooters made outside the European Union.
>>>> > Age Concern have urged ministers to fight the move, which is likely 
>>>> > to
>>>> > add
>>>> > £200 to the average £2,500 cost of the scooters, as importers pass on
>>>> > the
>>>> > duty charge.
>>>>
>>>> > Manufacturers also fear that it may also lead to a change in their 
>>>> > zero
>>>> > rating for VAT.
>>>> > "Classifying all mobility scooters as leisure vehicles is ludicrous.
>>>> > They
>>>> > can be a vital tool to keep older people independent and mobile. A
>>>> > mobility
>>>> > scooter can make the difference between someone staying in their home
>>>> > or
>>>> > ending up in a care home.
>>>> > "If scooters are to be made affordable for those who need them, the 
>>>> > UK
>>>> > Government must put pressure on the EU to totally rethink this 
>>>> > policy."
>>>> > Gordon Lishman, director-general of Age Concern.
>>>>
>>>> > Once again ta
>>>>
>>>> Hmmmm......
>>>> This extra cost would presumably only apply to scooters made outside
>>>> the EU.
>>>> Not so sure about the problem of them being leisure vehicles. How do
>>>> they compare to cars, for example, in the help they give and the need
>>>> they fulfil?
>>>> I can't use one so I'm not sure of the effects of having one. I'm not
>>>> saying they shouldn't be classed as leisure vehicle, just asking.
>>>>
>>>> Martin <><
>>>>
>>>> Well to answer:
>>>>
>>>> Without one my life would be really interesting sitting in front of the
>>>> TV
>>>> all day and night.
>>>> With one I can be sent to the local shops, or go where I want, without
>>>> the
>>>> feeling of being a burden on a pusher.
>>>>
>>>> Quality of life: With 1000% Without 1%.
>>>> Leisure=Yes Pleasure=Yes Essentual=Absolutely
>>>>
>>>> Richard- Hide quoted text -
>>>>
>>>> - Show quoted text -
>>>
>>> So in other words, its rather like having a car for some people?
>>>
>>> Martin  <><
>>>
>>> I suppose you could say that. Personally I use the scooter to enable me 
>>> to
>>> get into my home town as it has been pedestrianised and walking is not 
>>> an
>>> option. In fact that is pretty much the reason I got one. I no longer 
>>> have
>>> to wait for folk to come with me as I would with a wheelchair, I can go
>>> all day shopping, around country parks. Honestly the scooter has given 
>>> me
>>> my independance back and I am very grateful for that.
>>>
>>
>>
>> But the problem is that a lot of people that are just lazy/fat and not
>> disabled use them too. And in many cases pretty rudely! The public see 
>> them
>> drive into shopping centres etc and then walk into a shop or resturant - 
>> if
>> they can be bothered....
>
> Hmmm, now what could be clouding your vision.....
>
> I don't use a scooter or powerchair, but my walking range is little more
> than 100yds before I have to stop and sit to ease the pain. That tends to
> mean these days that I plan my outings around not travelling too far from
> my car and where I know I can sit and rest frequently. Probably foolish
> pride on my part, given how little I can walk, but I happen to have this
> notion that if I did take to a scooter or wheel chair as a permanent 
> thing,
> I'd very quickly lose what little walking range I do have, even if it does
> get bloody painful.
>
> The only time I used a powerchair was when I went to visit the Eden 
> Project
> - I could *never* have walked around the whole complex, but when it came 
> to
> stopping for a morning coffee I parked up the chair and walked the few
> steps to the servery with my wife, and thence to a table. Would you
> castigate me for actually walking a few steps?


What I think is irrelivent since I cant know. Tts what the doctor thinks 
that would be important.


>> The public also dont seem to differentiate between
>> scooters and powerchairs meaning that the true essential powerchair user
>> gets tarred with the same brush... Given time and no controls there will 
>> be
>> more and more of them racing around the pavements and shopping centres as
>> the lazy realise they can have one too. Its already happening here..
>
> I can think of a large number of quite elderly people who are extremely
> limited with their mobility but who see the availability of scooters as a
> means of giving them some mobility again.


Again as NEEDED and decided by a medical practitiuoner.


>> I really think there should be some type of fairly tough test to
>> differentiate them. That way "they" can pay the tax and we dont have too.
>> And it should be higher.
>
> Why not exempt those who are in receipt of the HRMA? It's simple and does
> away with the need for further tests.


HR what?

>
> What there should be is some form of proficiency testing before *anyone* 
> is
> let lose with a powered chair or scooter.

There already is when the NHS supply one.
But its ahem... Basic!

But whats more important is to stop fat lazy people using one on crowded 
pavements and shopping centres just because its easier than dieting. There 
are are a few ones like that around here and self confessed too.  One guy 
uses a huge one and uses it instead of a car and travels all over the place. 
Especially inside sainsburies... Trouble is people then see him and real 
disabled users as the same thing.

<x{yz}enophil44@hotmail.com> wrote in message 
news:m89e84hld5kaq4ftd9ajmr6p3v5o5ak1l4@4ax.com...
> On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 10:37:04 +0100, "Burgerman" 
> wrote:
>
>>But the problem is that a lot of people that are just lazy/fat and not
>>disabled use them too. And in many cases pretty rudely! The public see 
>>them
>>drive into shopping centres etc and then walk into a shop or resturant - 
>>if
>>they can be bothered....
>
> It's not always easy to decide from outward appearances whether people
> need their scooters or not.
>

Yes obviously.
Thats why I said that a doctor should decide if you are using it beccause of 
need or pleasure/transport. That way you woul still be tax free!


> I hire an electric scooter when I go to the Metrocentre because a heart
> condition, together with arthritis makes it difficult for me to walk
> more than 50 feet or so without having a rest, and yes, I *am* fat
> because the last 10 years have destroyed the lifelong fitness I had
> maintained before that, but apart from the stick I use, people cannot
> tell that anything is wrong with me unless they catch me gasping for
> air, which doesn't happen when I hire a scooter.

Thats why I said  etc etc again.

>
> And yes, I *do* walk into restaurants, leaving the wheelchair outside
> because it takes up too much room.
>
> And since I'veben finally diagnosed with a heart failure condition, I
> shall buy one of my own as soon as I can afford it.
>
> I personally find that the greatest problem with driving a scooter is
> that the instant I get into it, I appear to become invisible to the
> general public who behave either as if I'm not there at all, or who
> imagine that the scooter can stop dead, which it can, fortunately, but
> not without jarring my body unpleasantly, or even that I'm such an
> encumbrance in their busy lives that it's OK to jump across my feet in
> order to save a millisecond.

Well if they do that to me and obviously on purpose I explain it to them 
very loudly.


> -- 
> "It's easier to get forgiveness than permission."
> Rear Admiral "Amazing" Grace Hopper

"cyberwraith"  wrote in message 
news:h8Ghk.4553$GE1.2678@newsfe28.ams2...
>
> <x{yz}enophil44@hotmail.com> wrote in message 
> news:m89e84hld5kaq4ftd9ajmr6p3v5o5ak1l4@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 10:37:04 +0100, "Burgerman" 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>But the problem is that a lot of people that are just lazy/fat and not
>>>disabled use them too. And in many cases pretty rudely! The public see 
>>>them
>>>drive into shopping centres etc and then walk into a shop or resturant - 
>>>if
>>>they can be bothered....
>>
>> It's not always easy to decide from outward appearances whether people
>> need their scooters or not.
>>
>> I hire an electric scooter when I go to the Metrocentre because a heart
>> condition, together with arthritis makes it difficult for me to walk
>> more than 50 feet or so without having a rest, and yes, I *am* fat
>> because the last 10 years have destroyed the lifelong fitness I had
>> maintained before that, but apart from the stick I use, people cannot
>> tell that anything is wrong with me unless they catch me gasping for
>> air, which doesn't happen when I hire a scooter.
>>
>> And yes, I *do* walk into restaurants, leaving the wheelchair outside
>> because it takes up too much room.
>>
>> And since I'veben finally diagnosed with a heart failure condition, I
>> shall buy one of my own as soon as I can afford it.
>>
>> I personally find that the greatest problem with driving a scooter is
>> that the instant I get into it, I appear to become invisible to the
>> general public who behave either as if I'm not there at all, or who
>> imagine that the scooter can stop dead, which it can, fortunately, but
>> not without jarring my body unpleasantly, or even that I'm such an
>> encumbrance in their busy lives that it's OK to jump across my feet in
>> order to save a millisecond.
>> -- 
>> "It's easier to get forgiveness than permission."
>> Rear Admiral "Amazing" Grace Hopper
>
> Right before I forget here is the official reply received this morning 
> from DVLA;
> Thank you for your email.
>
> It may be helpful if I start by explaining that all vehicle registration 
> and taxing is governed by the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994 
> (VERA). The Act specifies that all mechanically propelled vehicles must be 
> registered and taxed. Accordingly all motorised wheel chairs and scooters 
> should be registered and taxed. However, although there is no legal 
> exemption from registration for class 2 or class 3 vehicles, on an extra 
> statutory basis, we do not register and tax class 2 carriages on the basis 
> that their road use is very limited and their speed restricted to 4 mph.
>
> Basically then, class 3 invalid carriages i.e. those capable of speeds 
> between 4 and 8 mph should be registered and taxed in the Disabled 
> taxation class in accordance with schedule 2(18) of VERA.



I can really see me bothering to volutarily fill in waste of time forms...
Plus my chair when new was available as 4 or 6mph versions.

The 4mph version doesent have lights as its a pavement vehicle.
The 6mph version did have lights (since removed since they are a waste of 
time, add weight, get in the way) as required by the law.
And its now gone through so many reincarnations/rebuilds (I have 3 of them 
that are all used to build a "new one" every 12 months or so and its so far 
removed from the originals with different almost everything that A) i have 
no clue about "age" B) no clue which ones were originally 4mph or which were 
6...  Now they are all as fast as I feel like programming them on the day in 
question.


> In order to register and tax the vehicle you would need to either post or 
> take an application to your DVLA Local Office (addresses on the website 
> address below).  The form you would need is called a V55/5, available at 
> the DVLA office or I can send one to you.  You would also need to submit 
> evidence of the vehicle's age.


Carbon dating maybe? I have no other clues! No serial numbers or even 
original motors (or even type of motors) remains! All are freshly powder 
coated too so no stickers or even stamped numbers could be seen even if 
there were any.  This stuff applies to cars not wheelchairs!  Obviously not 
exactly thought through! Especially since my home designed / redesigned ones 
were not built to conform to any type of vehicle. They are not "type 
approved" as such and dont fit any taxation class. Cant vsee any of this 
bull ever getting to any court!


>
> Please note:
>
>  a.. There is no registration fee
>  b.. a nil duty tax disc will be issued and need to be displayed

A paper tax disk? On a wheelchair? That gets pressure washed regularly? More 
paperwork? Not for me.

>  c.. Insurance is not a legal requirement, however, it is strongly 
> recommended that you obtain some
>  d.. number plates do NOT need to be displayed


Which begs the question how do you identify the chair that the tax disk is 
"for" remembering no id markings or anything, no determinate age, and 3 
clone chairs???



> I trust I have now clarified the position for you.  If you would like me 
> to send you the V55/5 form, please email me your full name and postal 
> address and I will send one to you.


Well no!

On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 17:16:05 +0100, Burgerman wrote:

> "The Wanderer"  wrote in message 
> news:bz0gmm2rf0si$.nekdyvj09grn.dlg@40tude.net...


<snip>
>> Why not exempt those who are in receipt of the HRMA? It's simple and does
>> away with the need for further tests.
> 
> 
> HR what?

Higher rate mobility allowance.......

>>
>> What there should be is some form of proficiency testing before *anyone* 
>> is
>> let lose with a powered chair or scooter.
> 
> There already is when the NHS supply one.
> But its ahem... Basic!
> 
> But whats more important is to stop fat lazy people using one on crowded 
> pavements and shopping centres just because its easier than dieting. 

They may be fat, they may be lazy, but that's a very sweeping statement you
make. 

No, what's important is to realise that there isn't a one size fits all
scenario.


There 
> are are a few ones like that around here and self confessed too.  

That, unfortunately, is human nature. There will always be ignorant,
selfish people around.

One guy 
> uses a huge one and uses it instead of a car and travels all over the place. 
> Especially inside sainsburies... Trouble is people then see him and real 
> disabled users as the same thing.

Do they, or is it just that you think they do?

The real problem is that powerchairs/scooters are too easily available for
use without proper training, which should include proper consideration for
others. Unfortunately, such training is soon forgotten once a test is
passed - the problem exists with all forms of transport, be it powerchair,
bushbike, car, lorry, whatever.

It'd be a wonderful world if it wasn't for the people who live in it.   

-- 
the dot wanderer at tesco dot net

On 23 Jul, 17:45, The Wanderer  wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 17:16:05 퍝, Burgerman wrote:
> > "The Wanderer"  wrote in message
> >news:bz0gmm2rf0si$.nekdyvj09grn.dlg@40tude.net...
>
> <snip>
>
> >> Why not exempt those who are in receipt of the HRMA? It's simple and does
> >> away with the need for further tests.
>
> > HR what?
>
> Higher rate mobility allowance.......
>
>
>
> >> What there should be is some form of proficiency testing before *anyone*
> >> is
> >> let lose with a powered chair or scooter.
>
> > There already is when the NHS supply one.
> > But its ahem... Basic!
>
> > But whats more important is to stop fat lazy people using one on crowded
> > pavements and shopping centres just because its easier than dieting.
>
> They may be fat, they may be lazy, but that's a very sweeping statement you
> make.
>
> No, what's important is to realise that there isn't a one size fits all
> scenario.
>
> There
>
> > are are a few ones like that around here and self confessed too.  
>
> That, unfortunately, is human nature. There will always be ignorant,
> selfish people around.
>
> One guy
>
> > uses a huge one and uses it instead of a car and travels all over the place.
> > Especially inside sainsburies... Trouble is people then see him and real
> > disabled users as the same thing.
>
> Do they, or is it just that you think they do?
>
> The real problem is that powerchairs/scooters are too easily available for
> use without proper training, which should include proper consideration for
> others. Unfortunately, such training is soon forgotten once a test is
> passed - the problem exists with all forms of transport, be it powerchair> bushbike, car, lorry, whatever.
>
> It'd be a wonderful world if it wasn't for the people who live in it.  
>
> --
> the dot wanderer at tesco dot net

Such training is forgotton once many car drivers pass their test too.
Training is no guarantee people will use that training, but at least
they'd have some idea what problems they can create.

Martin  <><

wrote in message 
news:00a589a8-22ab-4324-bea7-5de82e6a74b5@27g2000hsf.googlegroups.com...
On 23 Jul, 17:45, The Wanderer  wrote:
> On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 17:16:05 +0100, Burgerman wrote:
> > "The Wanderer"  wrote in message
> >news:bz0gmm2rf0si$.nekdyvj09grn.dlg@40tude.net...
>
> <snip>
>
> >> Why not exempt those who are in receipt of the HRMA? It's simple and 
> >> does
> >> away with the need for further tests.
>
> > HR what?
>
> Higher rate mobility allowance.......
>
>
>
> >> What there should be is some form of proficiency testing before 
> >> *anyone*
> >> is
> >> let lose with a powered chair or scooter.
>
> > There already is when the NHS supply one.
> > But its ahem... Basic!
>
> > But whats more important is to stop fat lazy people using one on crowded
> > pavements and shopping centres just because its easier than dieting.
>
> They may be fat, they may be lazy, but that's a very sweeping statement 
> you
> make.
>
> No, what's important is to realise that there isn't a one size fits all
> scenario.
>
> There
>
> > are are a few ones like that around here and self confessed too.
>
> That, unfortunately, is human nature. There will always be ignorant,
> selfish people around.
>
> One guy
>
> > uses a huge one and uses it instead of a car and travels all over the 
> > place.
> > Especially inside sainsburies... Trouble is people then see him and real
> > disabled users as the same thing.
>
> Do they, or is it just that you think they do?
>
> The real problem is that powerchairs/scooters are too easily available for
> use without proper training, which should include proper consideration for
> others. Unfortunately, such training is soon forgotten once a test is
> passed - the problem exists with all forms of transport, be it powerchair,
> bushbike, car, lorry, whatever.
>
> It'd be a wonderful world if it wasn't for the people who live in it.
>
> --
> the dot wanderer at tesco dot net




One of the problems is that as fuel gets dearer, and many different 
"crossover" types of transport become available then it gets a bit difficult 
to classify the types of user as well as the types of vehicle.  Many people 
see the bigger scooters as just transport thats green and cheap to run. And 
more will think like this as time and fuel prices move on and up. The word 
disability doesent actually come into it. People quite legally buy and use 
them for economic and "saving the planet" mentality.  And why not? But these 
SHOULD pay the tax. Ten years from now maybe most people will have them.

Eg there are now small electric (push) bikes, no licence needed. These get 
faster and better all the time. And are upgraded or home built regularly... 
There are people running around on the roads on "quad bikes" (a complete 
oxymoron all in one go there) both legally and not strictly legally in both 
electric and petrol power... And some ARE constructed to comply and be 
registered. Most are not and were never intended as road vehicle and as such 
not only dont comply but cant do so and therefore are "classless and 
effectively there is no law made for them to comply with. And electric and 
petrol go-peds, with and without seats. (and at least a few gas turbine! I 
helped build one...)

The law doesent recognise most of these "classes" of vehicles as "vehicles" 
at all. To be recognised as a "type" of vehicle (so that laws for that 
"type" of vehicle can be applied to it) then the vehicle has to conform to a 
specific intended catorgory. This is called Type Approval. Once it has been 
type approved it has an initial registration document for that "type" of 
vehicle inserted into the crate at the port or by the factory when 
manufactured.

And to complicate it further different rules apply to wheelchairs or 
disabled users. EG If I as a paraplegic user used a NON registered and non 
compliant quad bike instead of a wheelchair on the road to get about then 
the law both couldnt really stop me unless I break "other" non construction 
and use rules. Like noise nusance, endangering the public, causing an 
obstruction etc. Provided I use it sensibly, as a disabled conveyance, its 
very difficult to see what they could prosecute me for. In fact even if I 
wasnt disabled the same applies. Non of the normal construction and use 
rules applies since it doesent fall into ANY of the "types" of vehicles 
described, was never intended to, and as such has no taxation class either.

Training is for this unclassified vehicle irrelivant also since it has no 
law to comply with. It is in effect no different to a formula 1 car, a ride 
on garden mower, or a golf cart or dumper truck etc.

But yes  Higher rate mobility allowance....... would work great for scooters 
that were manufactured to a specific on road or on pavement "class" as most 
are.  But if not, or home made/off road then the governments 
"classification" means nothing.

On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 11:05:29 -0700 (PDT), mart2306@hotmail.com wrote:

> On 23 Jul, 17:45, The Wanderer  wrote:

<snip>

>> The real problem is that powerchairs/scooters are too easily available for
>> use without proper training, which should include proper consideration for
>> others. Unfortunately, such training is soon forgotten once a test is
>> passed - the problem exists with all forms of transport, be it powerchair,
>> bushbike, car, lorry, whatever.
>>
>> It'd be a wonderful world if it wasn't for the people who live in it.  
>>
>> --
>> the dot wanderer at tesco dot net
> 
> Such training is forgotton once many car drivers pass their test too.
> Training is no guarantee people will use that training, but at least
> they'd have some idea what problems they can create.

Err, that's exactly what I said, the bit where I said 

'Unfortunately, such training is soon forgotten once a test is passed - the
problem exists with all forms of transport, be it powerchair, bushbike,
car, lorry, whatever.'



-- 
the dot wanderer at tesco dot net

On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 20:36:51 +0100, Burgerman wrote:


<snip>

> And to complicate it further different rules apply to wheelchairs or 
> disabled users. EG If I as a paraplegic user used a NON registered and non 
> compliant quad bike instead of a wheelchair on the road to get about then 
> the law both couldnt really stop me unless I break "other" non construction 
> and use rules. Like noise nusance, endangering the public, causing an 
> obstruction etc. Provided I use it sensibly, as a disabled conveyance, its 
> very difficult to see what they could prosecute me for. In fact even if I 
> wasnt disabled the same applies. Non of the normal construction and use 
> rules applies since it doesent fall into ANY of the "types" of vehicles 
> described, was never intended to, and as such has no taxation class either.

But aren't you subject to 'Q' plating under the circumstances you mention.
I'm no expert on the subject, but I thought all such vehicles were subject
to individual inspection and approval, BICBW.

> Training is for this unclassified vehicle irrelivant also since it has no 
> law to comply with. It is in effect no different to a formula 1 car, a ride 
> on garden mower, or a golf cart or dumper truck etc.
> 
> But yes  Higher rate mobility allowance....... would work great for scooters 
> that were manufactured to a specific on road or on pavement "class" as most 
> are.  But if not, or home made/off road then the governments 
> "classification" means nothing.

Sorry, you've lost me now. I'm unclear what point it is you're trying to
make.

There are limits as to what may sensibly considered 'suitable' transport
for someone who is mobility impaired. I find it difficult to conceive that
a jet-propelled modified shopping trolley could ever be considered
appropriate transport in the particular circumstances. Alright that was a
facetious example, but I have this niggling suspicion that someone
somewhere might just think that was a good wheeze for disabled
transport......

-- 
the dot wanderer at tesco dot net

"The Wanderer"  wrote in message 
news:1ike9q8jyl9q6$.wyglgk4l8w7h.dlg@40tude.net...
> On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 20:36:51 +0100, Burgerman wrote:
>
>
> <snip>
>
>> And to complicate it further different rules apply to wheelchairs or
>> disabled users. EG If I as a paraplegic user used a NON registered and 
>> non
>> compliant quad bike instead of a wheelchair on the road to get about then
>> the law both couldnt really stop me unless I break "other" non 
>> construction
>> and use rules. Like noise nusance, endangering the public, causing an
>> obstruction etc. Provided I use it sensibly, as a disabled conveyance, 
>> its
>> very difficult to see what they could prosecute me for. In fact even if I
>> wasnt disabled the same applies. Non of the normal construction and use
>> rules applies since it doesent fall into ANY of the "types" of vehicles
>> described, was never intended to, and as such has no taxation class 
>> either.
>
> But aren't you subject to 'Q' plating under the circumstances you mention.


Only if you tried to modyfy it to make it comply with one type or another so 
it fits the "system". Then it would by totally legal. But if you dont bother 
its neither legal or otherwise as law as written doesent really apply. They 
get mad, jump up and down and tell you off! Unfortunately for them logic 
(commonly percieved) says it has to be "legal" to drive on the road. But its 
not the case.



> I'm no expert on the subject, but I thought all such vehicles were subject
> to individual inspection and approval, BICBW.

If you try to make it legit, then they are!


>
>> Training is for this unclassified vehicle irrelivant also since it has no
>> law to comply with. It is in effect no different to a formula 1 car, a 
>> ride
>> on garden mower, or a golf cart or dumper truck etc.
>>
>> But yes  Higher rate mobility allowance....... would work great for 
>> scooters
>> that were manufactured to a specific on road or on pavement "class" as 
>> most
>> are.  But if not, or home made/off road then the governments
>> "classification" means nothing.
>
> Sorry, you've lost me now. I'm unclear what point it is you're trying to
> make.

That not all conveyances are made to conform to a specuific "class" of 
vehicle. Like race cars, off road buggiues either electric or petrol. The 
"class" of vehicle you are refering to is a mobility scooter. They are made 
with treaded tyres, lights, mirrors etc specifically to comply. That doesent 
mean similar ones made in china wont appear that are for "off road" use by 
adults or kids or some wont use a golf cart or whatever. They dont comply to 
any rules for any specific taxation class, so your tax/training isnt 
relevant.


>
> There are limits as to what may sensibly considered 'suitable' transport
> for someone who is mobility impaired.

I have a friend who has used a 250cc off road quad bike who is paraplegic. 
He uses it on the road and off road to walk dog etc. Whats the sensible 
choice? His one has no lights/horn or road legal tyres, no diff, and only 
rear brakes. It obviously isnt and wasnt built for the highway. It doesent 
fit any pidgeon hole category. It cannot be made road legal without 
practically redesigning it. He drives it sensibly and carefully on roads as 
far as the fields where the dog runs. No court would consider prosecution 
anyway under the circumstances but in fact they cannot anyway! What specific 
offence is he commiting? And since it doesent conform to a taxation class or 
"type" as it was never type aproved the traffic laws dont apply. Neither 
does your scooter class tax!

I find it difficult to conceive that
> a jet-propelled modified shopping trolley could ever be considered
> appropriate transport in the particular circumstances. Alright that was a
> facetious example, but I have this niggling suspicion that someone
> somewhere might just think that was a good wheeze for disabled
> transport......

Jet powered wheelchairs have already been done several times for fun.  I 
have several small gas turbines here as it happens...

>
> -- 
> the dot wanderer at tesco dot net
>

On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 22:56:38 +0100, Burgerman wrote:

> "The Wanderer"  wrote in message 
> news:1ike9q8jyl9q6$.wyglgk4l8w7h.dlg@40tude.net...
>> On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 20:36:51 +0100, Burgerman wrote:
>>
>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>> And to complicate it further different rules apply to wheelchairs or
>>> disabled users. EG If I as a paraplegic user used a NON registered and 
>>> non
>>> compliant quad bike instead of a wheelchair on the road to get about then
>>> the law both couldnt really stop me unless I break "other" non 
>>> construction
>>> and use rules. Like noise nusance, endangering the public, causing an
>>> obstruction etc. Provided I use it sensibly, as a disabled conveyance, 
>>> its
>>> very difficult to see what they could prosecute me for. In fact even if I
>>> wasnt disabled the same applies. Non of the normal construction and use
>>> rules applies since it doesent fall into ANY of the "types" of vehicles
>>> described, was never intended to, and as such has no taxation class 
>>> either.
>>
>> But aren't you subject to 'Q' plating under the circumstances you mention.
> 
> 
> Only if you tried to modyfy it to make it comply with one type or another so 
> it fits the "system". Then it would by totally legal. But if you dont bother 
> its neither legal or otherwise as law as written doesent really apply. They 
> get mad, jump up and down and tell you off! Unfortunately for them logic 
> (commonly percieved) says it has to be "legal" to drive on the road. But its 
> not the case.
> 
> 
> 
>> I'm no expert on the subject, but I thought all such vehicles were subject
>> to individual inspection and approval, BICBW.
> 
> If you try to make it legit, then they are!

Well, consider me truly surprised. I thought any vehicle used on the
highways had to either conform to a class type or be subject to individal
approval.

I bow to your superior knowledge on the subject.


-- 
the dot wanderer at tesco dot net

"Burgerman"  wrote in message 
news:gTIhk.8483$5O6.7848@newsfe14.ams2...
> <x{yz}enophil44@hotmail.com> wrote in message 
> news:m89e84hld5kaq4ftd9ajmr6p3v5o5ak1l4@4ax.com...
>> On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 10:37:04 +0100, "Burgerman" 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>But the problem is that a lot of people that are just lazy/fat and not
>>>disabled use them too. And in many cases pretty rudely! The public see 
>>>them
>>>drive into shopping centres etc and then walk into a shop or resturant - 
>>>if
>>>they can be bothered....
>>
>> It's not always easy to decide from outward appearances whether people
>> need their scooters or not.
>>
>
> Yes obviously.
> Thats why I said that a doctor should decide if you are using it beccause 
> of need or pleasure/transport. That way you woul still be tax free!
>
>
>> I hire an electric scooter when I go to the Metrocentre because a heart
>> condition, together with arthritis makes it difficult for me to walk
>> more than 50 feet or so without having a rest, and yes, I *am* fat
>> because the last 10 years have destroyed the lifelong fitness I had
>> maintained before that, but apart from the stick I use, people cannot
>> tell that anything is wrong with me unless they catch me gasping for
>> air, which doesn't happen when I hire a scooter.
>
> Thats why I said  etc etc again.
>
>>
>> And yes, I *do* walk into restaurants, leaving the wheelchair outside
>> because it takes up too much room.
>>
>> And since I'veben finally diagnosed with a heart failure condition, I
>> shall buy one of my own as soon as I can afford it.
>>
>> I personally find that the greatest problem with driving a scooter is
>> that the instant I get into it, I appear to become invisible to the
>> general public who behave either as if I'm not there at all, or who
>> imagine that the scooter can stop dead, which it can, fortunately, but
>> not without jarring my body unpleasantly, or even that I'm such an
>> encumbrance in their busy lives that it's OK to jump across my feet in
>> order to save a millisecond.
>
> Well if they do that to me and obviously on purpose I explain it to them 
> very loudly.
>
>
>> -- 
>> "It's easier to get forgiveness than permission."
>> Rear Admiral "Amazing" Grace Hopper
>
>
I use the quote "I'm already disabled, I don't need your help, thanks" when 
I am knocked etc.

On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:44:40 +0100, "Richard Jenkin"
 wrote:

>I use the quote "I'm already disabled, I don't need your help, thanks" when 
>I am knocked etc. 

Oh brilliant!  I must remember that!
-- 
"It's easier to get forgiveness than permission."
Rear Admiral "Amazing" Grace Hopper

On 28 Jul, 18:44, "Richard Jenkin" 
wrote:
> "Burgerman"  wrote in message
>
> news:gTIhk.8483$5O6.7848@newsfe14.ams2...
>
>
>
> > <x{yz}enophi...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
> >news:m89e84hld5kaq4ftd9ajmr6p3v5o5ak1l4@4ax.com...
> >> On Wed, 23 Jul 2008 10:37:04 퍝, "Burgerman" 
> >> wrote:
>
> >>>But the problem is that a lot of people that are just lazy/fat and not
> >>>disabled use them too. And in many cases pretty rudely! The public see
> >>>them
> >>>drive into shopping centres etc and then walk into a shop or resturant> >>>if
> >>>they can be bothered....
>
> >> It's not always easy to decide from outward appearances whether people
> >> need their scooters or not.
>
> > Yes obviously.
> > Thats why I said that a doctor should decide if you are using it beccause
> > of need or pleasure/transport. That way you woul still be tax free!
>
> >> I hire an electric scooter when I go to the Metrocentre because a heart
> >> condition, together with arthritis makes it difficult for me to walk
> >> more than 50 feet or so without having a rest, and yes, I *am* fat
> >> because the last 10 years have destroyed the lifelong fitness I had
> >> maintained before that, but apart from the stick I use, people cannot
> >> tell that anything is wrong with me unless they catch me gasping for
> >> air, which doesn't happen when I hire a scooter.
>
> > Thats why I said  etc etc again.
>
> >> And yes, I *do* walk into restaurants, leaving the wheelchair outside
> >> because it takes up too much room.
>
> >> And since I'veben finally diagnosed with a heart failure condition, I
> >> shall buy one of my own as soon as I can afford it.
>
> >> I personally find that the greatest problem with driving a scooter is
> >> that the instant I get into it, I appear to become invisible to the
> >> general public who behave either as if I'm not there at all, or who
> >> imagine that the scooter can stop dead, which it can, fortunately, but
> >> not without jarring my body unpleasantly, or even that I'm such an
> >> encumbrance in their busy lives that it's OK to jump across my feet in
> >> order to save a millisecond.
>
> > Well if they do that to me and obviously on purpose I explain it to them
> > very loudly.
>
> >> --
> >> "It's easier to get forgiveness than permission."
> >> Rear Admiral "Amazing" Grace Hopper
>
> I use the quote "I'm already disabled, I don't need your help, thanks" when
> I am knocked etc.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Must remember to use that next time I'm at the NEC for a show and a
scooter hits me.  Thanks.

Martin  <><

On 28 Jul, 23:28, x{yz}enophi...@hotmail.com wrote:
> On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:44:40 +0100, "Richard Jenkin"
>
>  wrote:
> >I use the quote "I'm already disabled, I don't need your help, thanks" when
> >I am knocked etc.
>
> Oh brilliant!  I must remember that!
> --
> "It's easier to get forgiveness than permission."
> Rear Admiral "Amazing" Grace Hopper

It is amazing that the driving of a mobility scooter is akin to
donning the
harry potter cloak of invisibility. Its like there is another
subculture.
Personally some of my customer have asked if i can sell scooters with
Boudicea type scythe blades on the wheels. Whilst i recognise this is
extreme. It would almost certainly solve the spacial awareness problem
that some able bodied have

On 30 Jul, 10:10, goactivemobility 
wrote:
> On 28 Jul, 23:28, x{yz}enophi...@hotmail.com wrote:
>
> > On Mon, 28 Jul 2008 18:44:40 퍝, "Richard Jenkin"
>
> >  wrote:
> > >I use the quote "I'm already disabled, I don't need your help, thanks" when
> > >I am knocked etc.
>
> > Oh brilliant!  I must remember that!
> > --
> > "It's easier to get forgiveness than permission."
> > Rear Admiral "Amazing" Grace Hopper
>
> It is amazing that the driving of a mobility scooter is akin to
> donning the
> harry potter cloak of invisibility. Its like there is another
> subculture.
> Personally some of my customer have asked if i can sell scooters with
> Boudicea type scythe blades on the wheels. Whilst i recognise this is
> extreme. It would almost certainly solve the spacial awareness problem
> that some able bodied have

Both rider and pedestrian needs to be spatially aware. Seems like many
aren't though. I've been jostled in bus queues, on quiet streets and
in shops with wide aisles.
All while I've been standing still.

Martin  <><