My father has an NHS-supplied wheelchair. We recently bought a
relatively cheap used wheelchair accessible vehicle, having previously
used wheelchair accessible taxis. We live in a rural area, so using a
WAV is at least occasionally a necessity.

The physio. at our Wheelchair Service was quite insistent that a
headrest must be used when riding in the WAV in the wheelchair, but
equally insistent that the Service would not provide one. She says
they only provide a headrest to people who need one all the time. I
see this as the NHS saying that wheelchair users are not allowed out
unless they are pushed (or can self-propel) all the way from their
door to the destination.

Has anyone successfully argued the case for a headrest in similar
circumstances? What arguments worked?

Alternatively, advice on headrests please - the only one I found which
seems to fit the bill is £175!

Regards, VivienB

Caring for elderly father, disabled by FSH Dystrophy and diabetic.
Please respond to group; mail to newsgroups address is deleted.

"VivienB"  wrote in message 
news:fkc474llhgjglf5k519iubgn7iip8mncjj@4ax.com...
> My father has an NHS-supplied wheelchair. We recently bought a
> relatively cheap used wheelchair accessible vehicle, having previously
> used wheelchair accessible taxis. We live in a rural area, so using a
> WAV is at least occasionally a necessity.

Of course.

>
> The physio. at our Wheelchair Service was quite insistent that a
> headrest must be used when riding in the WAV in the wheelchair, but
> equally insistent that the Service would not provide one.

These people are "trained" and completely devoid of logic or common sense.
Tell her to mind her own business.


She says
> they only provide a headrest to people who need one all the time. I
> see this as the NHS saying that wheelchair users are not allowed out
> unless they are pushed (or can self-propel) all the way from their
> door to the destination.


Wheelchair service staffs main job is to advise (with bugger all knowledge) 
and to save as much money as possible regardless of hardship.

>
> Has anyone successfully argued the case for a headrest in similar
> circumstances? What arguments worked?

Non will. Because they are only required to provide a wheelchair or 
powerchair (such as they are...) for indoor use. If you require anything for 
outdoor use then thats your own business. They are not interested. They say 
and I quote, thats what your mobility allowance is for.


>
> Alternatively, advice on headrests please - the only one I found which
> seems to fit the bill is £175!


The headrest is in case your car gets shunted up the rear. It is a good 
idea, but really is non of her business.
You are looking for something strong enough to support his head if something 
runs into the back of your car.

I suggest that if hes in a wheelchair and this happens it might be more 
important to make sure the chair back wont fail, as well as a headrest. E 
headrest can be any support that stops his head going back in the event of 
an accident.

I drive from a wheelchair and I have none and dont worry. I watch the mirror 
though!



> Regards, VivienB
>
> Caring for elderly father, disabled by FSH Dystrophy and diabetic.
> Please respond to group; mail to newsgroups address is deleted.

Burgerman wrote:
> "VivienB"  wrote in message 
> news:fkc474llhgjglf5k519iubgn7iip8mncjj@4ax.com...
>> My father has an NHS-supplied wheelchair. We recently bought a
>> relatively cheap used wheelchair accessible vehicle, having previously
>> used wheelchair accessible taxis. We live in a rural area, so using a
>> WAV is at least occasionally a necessity.
> 
> Of course.
> 
>>
>> The physio. at our Wheelchair Service was quite insistent that a
>> headrest must be used when riding in the WAV in the wheelchair, but
>> equally insistent that the Service would not provide one.
> 
> These people are "trained" and completely devoid of logic or common sense.
> Tell her to mind her own business.
> 
> 
> She says
>> they only provide a headrest to people who need one all the time. I
>> see this as the NHS saying that wheelchair users are not allowed out
>> unless they are pushed (or can self-propel) all the way from their
>> door to the destination.
> 
> 
> Wheelchair service staffs main job is to advise (with bugger all 
> knowledge) and to save as much money as possible regardless of hardship.
> 
>>
>> Has anyone successfully argued the case for a headrest in similar
>> circumstances? What arguments worked?
> 
> Non will. Because they are only required to provide a wheelchair or 
> powerchair (such as they are...) for indoor use. If you require anything 
> for outdoor use then thats your own business. They are not interested. 
> They say and I quote, thats what your mobility allowance is for.
> 
> 
>>
>> Alternatively, advice on headrests please - the only one I found which
>> seems to fit the bill is £175!
> 
> 
> The headrest is in case your car gets shunted up the rear. It is a good 
> idea, but really is non of her business.
> You are looking for something strong enough to support his head if 
> something runs into the back of your car.
> 
> I suggest that if hes in a wheelchair and this happens it might be more 
> important to make sure the chair back wont fail, as well as a headrest. 
> E headrest can be any support that stops his head going back in the 
> event of an accident.
> 
> I drive from a wheelchair and I have none and dont worry. I watch the 
> mirror though!
> 

IIUC, the argument is that a head rest that is purely intended as a 
safety measure within the vehicle is considered to be part of the 
vehicle - even if it is actually fitted to the wheelchair. Only head 
restraints that are required when out of a vehicle are provided by the NHS.

Are they needed?

I would give the example of the LA vehicles used to transport people in 
wheelchairs. Not one that I know of (and that is a great number of them) 
have any head rests provided. Not one. They cover millions of miles a 
year and I have not heard of one whiplash injury that has resulted. Had 
this been a problem, the LAs up and down the country would have acted.

What has happened, many times, is that the wheelchair's and occupant's 
restraints have been put to the test. In spite of this, I still see 
restraints intended for lightweight wheelchairs being used on large 
powered ones, plus restraints incorrectly fitted to chairs and 
incorrectly tensioned.

Many, many people seem to apply restraints to the "obvious" points on 
the chair - rather than the correct ones.

I saw some accident reports some time ago - where incorrectly applied 
restraints had caused the chair to (unnecessarily) fail in what was a 
slow speed accident. Causing horrendous injuries to the individual.

So I do suggest to anyone using a chair in a vehicle that they contact 
their local authority and arrange for one of their trainers to verify 
that restraints are being used correctly. Don't assume that the obvious 
places are the correct places - they often aren't.

--
Sue

"Palindrome"  wrote in message 
news:rmyck.201310$Ev5.142924@fe09.news.easynews.com...
> Burgerman wrote:
>> "VivienB"  wrote in message 
>> news:fkc474llhgjglf5k519iubgn7iip8mncjj@4ax.com...
> So I do suggest to anyone using a chair in a vehicle that they contact 
> their local authority and arrange for one of their trainers to verify that 
> restraints are being used correctly.


There's optimism for you! "trainers"? Local Authority having any clue? You 
have to be joking. They wont know what you are talking about or who to put 
you through to. And when they do it will be to some useless clueless 
Ocupational Therapist with as much mechanical knowledge as a 5 year old who 
repeats her "training" back to you. Use common sense.

Tie down points on safe crash tested chairs are clearly marked. On other 
chairs then you need to use a bit of mechanical knowledge and common sense. 
If you cant do that get a proper chair.

Headrests - Wheelchair occupants head restraints can be fitted to the 
vehicle not the chair, OR the chair if its really strong enough (unlikely on 
manual chairs) by mobility dealers. The idea is to stop whiplash if hit from 
behind. Most likely the back of a manual chair will fail anyway in that 
event so a headrest wont really help. Personally I just find them a nusanse. 
But they are available. The wheelchair services have absolutely nothing to 
to with it though and its not their business wether you use one or not.



Don't assume that the obvious
> places are the correct places - they often aren't.
>
> --
> Sue

Burgerman wrote:
> "Palindrome"  wrote in message 
> news:rmyck.201310$Ev5.142924@fe09.news.easynews.com...
>> Burgerman wrote:
>>> "VivienB"  wrote in message 
>>> news:fkc474llhgjglf5k519iubgn7iip8mncjj@4ax.com...
>> So I do suggest to anyone using a chair in a vehicle that they contact 
>> their local authority and arrange for one of their trainers to verify 
>> that restraints are being used correctly.
> 
> 
> There's optimism for you! "trainers"? Local Authority having any clue? 
> You have to be joking. They wont know what you are talking about or who 
> to put you through to. And when they do it will be to some useless 
> clueless Ocupational Therapist with as much mechanical knowledge as a 5 
> year old who repeats her "training" back to you. Use common sense.

My local authority (Devon) has excellent trainers - they are qualified 
motor vehicle technicians. DCC run courses that cover the securing of 
all types of wheelchairs in vehicles and in passenger safety. This 
includes vehicle access ramps and lifts, the use of tie down systems for 
the wheelchair, the use of wheelchair occupant restraint systems that 
are anchored to the vehicle not the wheelchair, etc, etc, etc.

The trainers have made it clear to me that *anyone* is more than welcome 
to come, on an individual basis, for "checking out" that they are using 
the appropriate restraints and using them properly.

I've attended several of these courses and also asked their advice more 
than once. New securing systems are being introduced all the time.

There is also a booklet:

'Guidance on the Safe Transportation of Wheelchairs' is a booklet 
published by the Medical Devices Agency. For a copy, go to its website: 
http://www.mhra.gov.uk/"

> Tie down points on safe crash tested chairs are clearly marked. On other 
> chairs then you need to use a bit of mechanical knowledge and common 
> sense. 


You may be genned up on restraint colour coding - most people aren't. 
Most people wouldn't know what the relative positioning between chair 
and passenger adjustable floor fixings should be. Or even which track to 
use for each, on a four track system.

"Common Sense" too often equals "guess".

--
Sue

"Palindrome"  wrote in message 
news:DfHck.223159$tY4.219813@fe06.news.easynews.com...
> Burgerman wrote:
>> "Palindrome"  wrote in message 
>> news:rmyck.201310$Ev5.142924@fe09.news.easynews.com...
>>> Burgerman wrote:
>>>> "VivienB"  wrote in message 
>>>> news:fkc474llhgjglf5k519iubgn7iip8mncjj@4ax.com...
>>> So I do suggest to anyone using a chair in a vehicle that they contact 
>>> their local authority and arrange for one of their trainers to verify 
>>> that restraints are being used correctly.
>>
>>
>> There's optimism for you! "trainers"? Local Authority having any clue? 
>> You have to be joking. They wont know what you are talking about or who 
>> to put you through to. And when they do it will be to some useless 
>> clueless Ocupational Therapist with as much mechanical knowledge as a 5 
>> year old who repeats her "training" back to you. Use common sense.
>
> My local authority (Devon) has excellent trainers - they are qualified 
> motor vehicle technicians. DCC run courses that cover the securing of all 
> types of wheelchairs in vehicles and in passenger safety. This includes 
> vehicle access ramps and lifts, the use of tie down systems for the 
> wheelchair, the use of wheelchair occupant restraint systems that are 
> anchored to the vehicle not the wheelchair, etc, etc, etc.
>
> The trainers have made it clear to me that *anyone* is more than welcome 
> to come, on an individual basis, for "checking out" that they are using 
> the appropriate restraints and using them properly.
>
> I've attended several of these courses and also asked their advice more 
> than once. New securing systems are being introduced all the time.
>
> There is also a booklet:
>
> 'Guidance on the Safe Transportation of Wheelchairs' is a booklet 
> published by the Medical Devices Agency. For a copy, go to its website: 
> http://www.mhra.gov.uk/"
>
>> Tie down points on safe crash tested chairs are clearly marked. On other 
>> chairs then you need to use a bit of mechanical knowledge and common 
>> sense.
>
>
> You may be genned up on restraint colour coding - most people aren't.


Im not. But its pretty obvious on most proper crash tested chairs! They even 
put little stickers on for dummies!
If the chair isnt crash tested then you are wasting your time anyway since 
the thin tubular uprights supporting the back of most manual chairs and some 
power chairs would just fold up if you were hit from behind as your weight 
lands on them. My engineering experience tells me that much. It also tells 
me how to safely (as is possible) tie down a non crash tested chair by 
looking at its construction. Those tecnicians most likely wouldnt know or 
understand that anyway and even if they could they certainly couldnt put 
that kind of engineering experience into your head on a training session!


> Most people wouldn't know what the relative positioning between chair and 
> passenger adjustable floor fixings should be. Or even which track to use 
> for each, on a four track system.
>
> "Common Sense" too often equals "guess".


"Training" often = false sense safety.
But if its available and you really dont have the confidence to understand 
how to strap a wheelchair in safely then it cant hurt (or probably help) 
much other than in the case of a single situation/chair/user.

You will excuse me if I show little confidence in these people but I have 
seen it all too many times.

On Mon, 07 Jul 2008 16:24:25 +0100, VivienB
 wrote:

>Has anyone successfully argued the case for a headrest in similar
>circumstances? What arguments worked?
>
>Alternatively, advice on headrests please - the only one I found which
>seems to fit the bill is £175!

Sorry to have taken so long to respond to this interesting discussion.

I had not imagined that NHS wheelchairs would *not* be crash-tested -
I see the NHS as a risk-averse organisation (albeit they do not always
recognise the real probability of a hazard resulting in harm). The
wheelchair Dad was supplied with, has a crash test certificate on the
maker's website, although it is not specific about the chair back type
(there are a number of options, including folding). 

The purpose of the headrest is understood. I think its greatest
benefit might be my father's peace of mind, now the issue has been
raised. To be fair to the physio., her concern was for my father's
safety. I can see the argument that the mobility part of DLA is
intended to help with travel/transport outside the home. However, I
believe that if a wheelchair is being supplied, it should match the
user's needs, including e.g. travel to see a doctor or dentist.

The tie-down points are marked on the chair and the booklet that came
with it also illustrates how to restrain it. I would add that I have a
better than josephine-public grasp of what is needed to restrain a
load, as I was trained and worked loading and restraining aircraft
cargoes including vehicles, in the RAuxAF Movements Squadron.

Also, the vehicle is specifically designed to carry one person in a
wheelchair, and has restraints fixed to the vehicle. I see little that
training could help with, over and above tips I got from our
experienced WAV taxi-driver and the previous owner. In any case, it is
very, very unlikely that such is available in Wiltshire. If it was, I
would expect either the Wheelchair Service or the OT I mentioned this
to, to have said something about it. 

Regards, VivienB

Caring for elderly father, disabled by FSH Dystrophy and diabetic.
Please respond to group; mail to newsgroups address is deleted.