The Todal  posted

>All we have is the description of the photo that appears in the 
>transcripts of the court judgments, from which it seems clear that it was a 
>fairly innocuous picture of a child with its genitals visible, which the 
>Court of Appeal did not think was sufficient to justify a prison sentence. 
>It isn't their custom to say "we think this was a grievous miscarriage of 
>justice" but that is what I believe is implied in what they say. 
>

And yet they refused to quash the conviction. And they agreed that the
jury was entitled to conclude that the photo was indecent, despite the
court accepting it being the kind of photograph that could appear in
medical textbooks where it would *not* be indecent. 

Re the latter, they said:

"If the test for deciding whether a photograph is indecent or not is
whether or not it is the kind of photograph which appears in medical
text books, then many of the photographs with which these courts are all
too familiar could not be classified as indecent."

... and from this they drew the stupid conclusion that the fact that
similar photos had appeared in medical textbooks was irrelevant. The
obvious and sensible conclusion was that "many of the photographs with
which these courts are all too familiar could not be classified as
indecent". However they couldn't draw that conclusion because that would
have upset the judicial apple-cart too much, by suggesting that many
previous convictions were unjust. Rather like Lord Wossname's "appalling
vista". 

As for para 15 of the judgement, referring to R v Graham-Kerr (1989), it
seems to be pure drivel. 

-- 
PeteM

-- 
Posted via a free Usenet account from http://www.teranews.com

1st time I'v, seen it. Top of the range car personalised numberplate.
Blue badge out of date 2004 no issuing authority and a black number
which was smudged. I reported that to the trolley guy in supermarket
who said he would tell his manager.  Maybe. Anyway I did some photos
of the car reg and the badge. Quite a few people who couldn't park
were insensed at this car. It clearly said expiry date 2004. 


If I did want to send photos where would i send them. The supermarket
was in England.
Temperrance

* Temprance wrote, On 08/09/2007 11:55:
> 1st time I'v, seen it. Top of the range car personalised numberplate.
> Blue badge out of date 2004 no issuing authority and a black number
> which was smudged. I reported that to the trolley guy in supermarket
> who said he would tell his manager.  Maybe. Anyway I did some photos
> of the car reg and the badge. Quite a few people who couldn't park
> were insensed at this car. It clearly said expiry date 2004. 
> 
> 
> If I did want to send photos where would i send them. The supermarket
> was in England.
> Temperrance 

I would have said the issuing authority, if there had been one. 
Failing that, I suspect that just leaves the local police.

-- 
Cheers, Serena
If we knew what it was we were doing, it would not be called research,
would it? (Albert Einstein)

"Temprance"  wrote in message
news:l5v4e3hbs1g15vim6ohljthk0arf6r0p4g@4ax.com...
> 1st time I'v, seen it. Top of the range car personalised numberplate.
> Blue badge out of date 2004 no issuing authority and a black number
> which was smudged. I reported that to the trolley guy in supermarket
> who said he would tell his manager.  Maybe. Anyway I did some photos
> of the car reg and the badge. Quite a few people who couldn't park
> were insensed at this car. It clearly said expiry date 2004.
>
>
> If I did want to send photos where would i send them. The supermarket
> was in England.
Customer services department at head office would be my target.

I had a disabilty access issue with a UK based supermarket here in Ireland
just last week and found that their web site had a comments and complaints
section, I filled it out and was very surprised by the fast and efficient
way they dealt with it. It might not apply to all supermarket chains but in
this case Tesco, for them it was, deserve praise.


-- 
Chris, West Cork, Ireland.
Festina lente

On Sat, 08 Sep 2007 11:55:27 +0100, Temprance
 wrote:

>1st time I'v, seen it. Top of the range car personalised numberplate.
>Blue badge out of date 2004 no issuing authority and a black number
>which was smudged. I reported that to the trolley guy in supermarket
>who said he would tell his manager.  Maybe. Anyway I did some photos
>of the car reg and the badge. Quite a few people who couldn't park
>were insensed at this car. It clearly said expiry date 2004. 
>
>
>If I did want to send photos where would i send them. The supermarket
>was in England.
>Temperrance 


Peter Turtill - he will put up on a web site.

I'm guilty!

A few weeks ago a warden noticed that my blue badge had run out. I had
not noticed that it needed renewing. Do they send a reminder? After a
long lecture about the legality of parking using an old badge she sent
me on my way.

Steve

On Sat, 08 Sep 2007 14:30:41 +0100, Steve Wolstenholme wrote:

> I'm guilty!
> 
> A few weeks ago a warden noticed that my blue badge had run out. I had
> not noticed that it needed renewing. Do they send a reminder? After a
> long lecture about the legality of parking using an old badge she sent
> me on my way.
> 
> Steve

There's no automatic reminder, at least not here in Cornwall. 
I have to renew mine every 3 years.
-- 
MCC

On Sat, 08 Sep 2007 14:30:41 +0100, Steve Wolstenholme wrote:

> I'm guilty!
> 
> A few weeks ago a warden noticed that my blue badge had run out. I had
> not noticed that it needed renewing. Do they send a reminder? 

In general terms, no, the responsibility for checking it periodically and
renewing rests with the holder of the badge, although I seem to remember
reading somewhere that one or two LAs do take it upon themselves to send
out reminders.



-- 
the dot wanderer at tesco dot net

"MCC"  wrote in message 
news:133i5obtppfy0$.1hjkq5547lcma.dlg@40tude.net...
> On Sat, 08 Sep 2007 14:30:41 +0100, Steve Wolstenholme wrote:
>
>> I'm guilty!
>>
>> A few weeks ago a warden noticed that my blue badge had run out. I had
>> not noticed that it needed renewing. Do they send a reminder? After a
>> long lecture about the legality of parking using an old badge she sent
>> me on my way.
>>
>> Steve
>
> There's no automatic reminder, at least not here in Cornwall.
> I have to renew mine every 3 years.
> -- 

There are no automatic reminders in Hampshire or Surrey either. I have to 
resort to a post-it sticker in the diary, or I'd forget too.

Splodge

> I had a disabilty access issue with a UK based supermarket here in Ireland
> just last week and found that their web site had a comments and complaints
> section, I filled it out and was very surprised by the fast and efficient
> way they dealt with it. It might not apply to all supermarket chains but in
> this case Tesco, for them it was, deserve praise.
> 
> 

Well your Tesco must be better than mine here in Dundee. I was there the 
other day and couldnt get a parking space in the disabled bays because they 
were all taken and not one car had a blue badge. To make matters worse on of 
the cars parked was a police car! If the police can violate the rules then 
what hope have we got?

On 10 Sep, 11:47, "********" <***...@hereandtherer.co.uk> wrote:
> > I had a disabilty access issue with a UK based supermarket here in Ireland
> > just last week and found that their web site had a comments and complaints
> > section, I filled it out and was very surprised by the fast and efficient
> > way they dealt with it. It might not apply to all supermarket chains but in
> > this case Tesco, for them it was, deserve praise.
>
> Well your Tesco must be better than mine here in Dundee. I was there the
> other day and couldnt get a parking space in the disabled bays because they
> were all taken and not one car had a blue badge. To make matters worse on of
> the cars parked was a police car! If the police can violate the rules then
> what hope have we got?

Shopping at 3am, often find a police car or two in the disabled bays.
I've absolutely no objection if they are there on an emergency call -
close space to door, quicker inside and all that.
Never seen them on emergency inside a supermarket at 3am though.

Our local Asda has turned out quite good for disabled bays. They have
been known to check the bays every so often.
Now if only they could stop disabled people blocking in other disabled
people.......  :)

Martin  <><

"mart2306@hotmail.com"  wrote in
news:1189422476.288904.66020@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com: 

> On 10 Sep, 11:47, "********" <***...@hereandtherer.co.uk> wrote:
>> > I had a disabilty access issue with a UK based supermarket here in
>> > Ireland just last week and found that their web site had a comments
>> > and complaints section, I filled it out and was very surprised by the
>> > fast and efficient way they dealt with it. It might not apply to all
>> > supermarket chains but in this case Tesco, for them it was, deserve
>> > praise. 
>>
>> Well your Tesco must be better than mine here in Dundee. I was there
>> the other day and couldnt get a parking space in the disabled bays
>> because they were all taken and not one car had a blue badge. To make
>> matters worse on of the cars parked was a police car! If the police can
>> violate the rules then what hope have we got?
> 
> Shopping at 3am, often find a police car or two in the disabled bays.
> I've absolutely no objection if they are there on an emergency call -
> close space to door, quicker inside and all that.
> Never seen them on emergency inside a supermarket at 3am though.
> 
> This wasn't 3am though it was 11am and the place was really busy with 
people with badges struggling to park.

On 11 Sep, 11:47, "********" <***...@hereandtherer.co.uk> wrote:
> "mart2...@hotmail.com"  wrote innews:1189422476.288904.66020@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com:
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 10 Sep, 11:47, "********" <***...@hereandtherer.co.uk> wrote:
> >> > I had a disabilty access issue with a UK based supermarket here in
> >> > Ireland just last week and found that their web site had a comments
> >> > and complaints section, I filled it out and was very surprised by the
> >> > fast and efficient way they dealt with it. It might not apply to all
> >> > supermarket chains but in this case Tesco, for them it was, deserve
> >> > praise.
>
> >> Well your Tesco must be better than mine here in Dundee. I was there
> >> the other day and couldnt get a parking space in the disabled bays
> >> because they were all taken and not one car had a blue badge. To make
> >> matters worse on of the cars parked was a police car! If the police can
> >> violate the rules then what hope have we got?
>
> > Shopping at 3am, often find a police car or two in the disabled bays.
> > I've absolutely no objection if they are there on an emergency call -
> > close space to door, quicker inside and all that.
> > Never seen them on emergency inside a supermarket at 3am though.
>
> > This wasn't 3am though it was 11am and the place was really busy with
>
> people with badges struggling to park.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Ah, new information.
Yes, often see people with badges struggling to park. Few thousand
blue badges within travelling distance in my area, about 20 town
centre disabled bays.
To be fair to the local council (who tend to make big, big mistakes)
the traffic staff tend to be on the ball about blue badges.
Occasionally see they've ticketed someone for parking in the wrong
place.
BB holders as much as anyone - there are places we can't park too,
despite what some people believe.

Penalty notices tend to discourage most from getting more. Though I
have seen a couple of cars with several notices in a year.

I don't know of any simple way of making sure people don't misuse our
bays, same as some misuse the badge they have.

Martin  <><

wrote in message 
news:1189530654.879485.197480@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> On 11 Sep, 11:47, "********" <***...@hereandtherer.co.uk> wrote:
>> "mart2...@hotmail.com"  wrote 
>> innews:1189422476.288904.66020@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On 10 Sep, 11:47, "********" <***...@hereandtherer.co.uk> wrote:
>> >> > I had a disabilty access issue with a UK based supermarket here in
>> >> > Ireland just last week and found that their web site had a comments
>> >> > and complaints section, I filled it out and was very surprised by 
>> >> > the
>> >> > fast and efficient way they dealt with it. It might not apply to all
>> >> > supermarket chains but in this case Tesco, for them it was, deserve
>> >> > praise.
>>
>> >> Well your Tesco must be better than mine here in Dundee. I was there
>> >> the other day and couldnt get a parking space in the disabled bays
>> >> because they were all taken and not one car had a blue badge. To make
>> >> matters worse on of the cars parked was a police car! If the police 
>> >> can
>> >> violate the rules then what hope have we got?
>>
>> > Shopping at 3am, often find a police car or two in the disabled bays.
>> > I've absolutely no objection if they are there on an emergency call -
>> > close space to door, quicker inside and all that.
>> > Never seen them on emergency inside a supermarket at 3am though.
>>
>> > This wasn't 3am though it was 11am and the place was really busy with
>>
>> people with badges struggling to park.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> Ah, new information.
> Yes, often see people with badges struggling to park. Few thousand
> blue badges within travelling distance in my area, about 20 town
> centre disabled bays.
> To be fair to the local council (who tend to make big, big mistakes)
> the traffic staff tend to be on the ball about blue badges.
> Occasionally see they've ticketed someone for parking in the wrong
> place.
> BB holders as much as anyone - there are places we can't park too,
> despite what some people believe.
>
> Penalty notices tend to discourage most from getting more. Though I
> have seen a couple of cars with several notices in a year.
>
> I don't know of any simple way of making sure people don't misuse our
> bays, same as some misuse the badge they have.
>
> Martin  <><


How about the American option? Illegal use of a disabled bay by able bodied 
people is immediate loss of driving licence.? Just my tuppence worth. This 
is a subject I feel very strongly about.

Cyberwraith wrote:
>  wrote in message 
> news:1189530654.879485.197480@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>> On 11 Sep, 11:47, "********" <***...@hereandtherer.co.uk> wrote:
>>> "mart2...@hotmail.com"  wrote 
>>> innews:1189422476.288904.66020@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com:
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> On 10 Sep, 11:47, "********" <***...@hereandtherer.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>> I had a disabilty access issue with a UK based supermarket here in
>>>>>> Ireland just last week and found that their web site had a comments
>>>>>> and complaints section, I filled it out and was very surprised by 
>>>>>> the
>>>>>> fast and efficient way they dealt with it. It might not apply to all
>>>>>> supermarket chains but in this case Tesco, for them it was, deserve
>>>>>> praise.
>>>>> Well your Tesco must be better than mine here in Dundee. I was there
>>>>> the other day and couldnt get a parking space in the disabled bays
>>>>> because they were all taken and not one car had a blue badge. To make
>>>>> matters worse on of the cars parked was a police car! If the police 
>>>>> can
>>>>> violate the rules then what hope have we got?
>>>> Shopping at 3am, often find a police car or two in the disabled bays.
>>>> I've absolutely no objection if they are there on an emergency call -
>>>> close space to door, quicker inside and all that.
>>>> Never seen them on emergency inside a supermarket at 3am though.
>>>> This wasn't 3am though it was 11am and the place was really busy with
>>> people with badges struggling to park.- Hide quoted text -
>>>
>>> - Show quoted text -
>> Ah, new information.
>> Yes, often see people with badges struggling to park. Few thousand
>> blue badges within travelling distance in my area, about 20 town
>> centre disabled bays.
>> To be fair to the local council (who tend to make big, big mistakes)
>> the traffic staff tend to be on the ball about blue badges.
>> Occasionally see they've ticketed someone for parking in the wrong
>> place.
>> BB holders as much as anyone - there are places we can't park too,
>> despite what some people believe.
>>
>> Penalty notices tend to discourage most from getting more. Though I
>> have seen a couple of cars with several notices in a year.
>>
>> I don't know of any simple way of making sure people don't misuse our
>> bays, same as some misuse the badge they have.
>>
>> Martin  <><
> 
> 
> How about the American option? Illegal use of a disabled bay by able bodied 
> people is immediate loss of driving licence.? Just my tuppence worth. This 
> is a subject I feel very strongly about. 
> 
> 
I would suggest that you could bring in the death penalty and people 
would still do it - because the chance of being caught is so negligable.
  (plus the jury wouldn't convict under those circumstances...)

I would suggest that what is needed is an RFID chipped badge - that gets 
rid of the duplicated copies and theft of badges - a stolen one would be 
rendered useless, within hours of being reported, simply by being 
removed from the database.

Plus require supermarkets and other off-road parking to have a 
barrier-protected disabled parking area, with the exit automatic 
barriers having a transponder sensing the badge.

Finally, if the badge holder is not present when a traffic warden/ 
police office/ cso checks the car, one "point" will be added to the 
badge. After 2 points in any calendar month, the badge is deactivated 
for the remainder of the month.

That would stop most of the abuse, IMHO.

-- 
Sue

"Palindrome"  wrote in message 
news:EMEFi.319837$jE4.306331@fe12.news.easynews.com...
> Cyberwraith wrote:
>>  wrote in message 
>> news:1189530654.879485.197480@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>>> On 11 Sep, 11:47, "********" <***...@hereandtherer.co.uk> wrote:
>>>> "mart2...@hotmail.com"  wrote 
>>>> innews:1189422476.288904.66020@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>> On 10 Sep, 11:47, "********" <***...@hereandtherer.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>> I had a disabilty access issue with a UK based supermarket here in
>>>>>>> Ireland just last week and found that their web site had a comments
>>>>>>> and complaints section, I filled it out and was very surprised by 
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> fast and efficient way they dealt with it. It might not apply to all
>>>>>>> supermarket chains but in this case Tesco, for them it was, deserve
>>>>>>> praise.
>>>>>> Well your Tesco must be better than mine here in Dundee. I was there
>>>>>> the other day and couldnt get a parking space in the disabled bays
>>>>>> because they were all taken and not one car had a blue badge. To make
>>>>>> matters worse on of the cars parked was a police car! If the police 
>>>>>> can
>>>>>> violate the rules then what hope have we got?
>>>>> Shopping at 3am, often find a police car or two in the disabled bays.
>>>>> I've absolutely no objection if they are there on an emergency call -
>>>>> close space to door, quicker inside and all that.
>>>>> Never seen them on emergency inside a supermarket at 3am though.
>>>>> This wasn't 3am though it was 11am and the place was really busy with
>>>> people with badges struggling to park.- Hide quoted text -
>>>>
>>>> - Show quoted text -
>>> Ah, new information.
>>> Yes, often see people with badges struggling to park. Few thousand
>>> blue badges within travelling distance in my area, about 20 town
>>> centre disabled bays.
>>> To be fair to the local council (who tend to make big, big mistakes)
>>> the traffic staff tend to be on the ball about blue badges.
>>> Occasionally see they've ticketed someone for parking in the wrong
>>> place.
>>> BB holders as much as anyone - there are places we can't park too,
>>> despite what some people believe.
>>>
>>> Penalty notices tend to discourage most from getting more. Though I
>>> have seen a couple of cars with several notices in a year.
>>>
>>> I don't know of any simple way of making sure people don't misuse our
>>> bays, same as some misuse the badge they have.
>>>
>>> Martin  <><
>>
>>
>> How about the American option? Illegal use of a disabled bay by able 
>> bodied people is immediate loss of driving licence.? Just my tuppence 
>> worth. This is a subject I feel very strongly about.
> I would suggest that you could bring in the death penalty and people would 
> still do it - because the chance of being caught is so negligable.
>  (plus the jury wouldn't convict under those circumstances...)
>
> I would suggest that what is needed is an RFID chipped badge - that gets 
> rid of the duplicated copies and theft of badges - a stolen one would be 
> rendered useless, within hours of being reported, simply by being removed 
> from the database.
>
> Plus require supermarkets and other off-road parking to have a 
> barrier-protected disabled parking area, with the exit automatic barriers 
> having a transponder sensing the badge.
>
> Finally, if the badge holder is not present when a traffic warden/ police 
> office/ cso checks the car, one "point" will be added to the badge. After 
> 2 points in any calendar month, the badge is deactivated for the remainder 
> of the month.
>
> That would stop most of the abuse, IMHO.
>
> -- 
> Sue

Good idea I suggested that the BB should be all part and parcel of the road 
tax disc also, cut down on paperwork saving the planet in the process. 
Considering the various councils now employ private traffic wardens how 
about having the wardens do a sweep as they pass a car park? They would 
nearly always find someone. I know that private car parks are exempt? from 
traffic wardens but why. Also I do seem to recall a few years back that this 
had actually been put into action, am I mistaken? Another thought, 
considering the government wish folk off the road 'to save the planet' 
anyone found with a dodgy BB should loose licence for life. Make it a damned 
unattractive option. However it does seem that a lot of mis-use by dodgy 
BB's are actually the very lawyers in the city! When an MP parks openly in a 
disabled bay at a railway station what chance has anyone got of being done, 
he did not even display a badge.

Cyberwraith wrote:
> "Palindrome"  wrote in message 
> news:EMEFi.319837$jE4.306331@fe12.news.easynews.com...
>> Cyberwraith wrote:
>>>  wrote in message 
>>> news:1189530654.879485.197480@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>>>> On 11 Sep, 11:47, "********" <***...@hereandtherer.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>> "mart2...@hotmail.com"  wrote 
>>>>> innews:1189422476.288904.66020@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 10 Sep, 11:47, "********" <***...@hereandtherer.co.uk> wrote:
>>>>>>>> I had a disabilty access issue with a UK based supermarket here in
>>>>>>>> Ireland just last week and found that their web site had a comments
>>>>>>>> and complaints section, I filled it out and was very surprised by 
>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>> fast and efficient way they dealt with it. It might not apply to all
>>>>>>>> supermarket chains but in this case Tesco, for them it was, deserve
>>>>>>>> praise.
>>>>>>> Well your Tesco must be better than mine here in Dundee. I was there
>>>>>>> the other day and couldnt get a parking space in the disabled bays
>>>>>>> because they were all taken and not one car had a blue badge. To make
>>>>>>> matters worse on of the cars parked was a police car! If the police 
>>>>>>> can
>>>>>>> violate the rules then what hope have we got?
>>>>>> Shopping at 3am, often find a police car or two in the disabled bays.
>>>>>> I've absolutely no objection if they are there on an emergency call -
>>>>>> close space to door, quicker inside and all that.
>>>>>> Never seen them on emergency inside a supermarket at 3am though.
>>>>>> This wasn't 3am though it was 11am and the place was really busy with
>>>>> people with badges struggling to park.- Hide quoted text -
>>>>>
>>>>> - Show quoted text -
>>>> Ah, new information.
>>>> Yes, often see people with badges struggling to park. Few thousand
>>>> blue badges within travelling distance in my area, about 20 town
>>>> centre disabled bays.
>>>> To be fair to the local council (who tend to make big, big mistakes)
>>>> the traffic staff tend to be on the ball about blue badges.
>>>> Occasionally see they've ticketed someone for parking in the wrong
>>>> place.
>>>> BB holders as much as anyone - there are places we can't park too,
>>>> despite what some people believe.
>>>>
>>>> Penalty notices tend to discourage most from getting more. Though I
>>>> have seen a couple of cars with several notices in a year.
>>>>
>>>> I don't know of any simple way of making sure people don't misuse our
>>>> bays, same as some misuse the badge they have.
>>>>
>>>> Martin  <><
>>>
>>> How about the American option? Illegal use of a disabled bay by able 
>>> bodied people is immediate loss of driving licence.? Just my tuppence 
>>> worth. This is a subject I feel very strongly about.
>> I would suggest that you could bring in the death penalty and people would 
>> still do it - because the chance of being caught is so negligable.
>>  (plus the jury wouldn't convict under those circumstances...)
>>
>> I would suggest that what is needed is an RFID chipped badge - that gets 
>> rid of the duplicated copies and theft of badges - a stolen one would be 
>> rendered useless, within hours of being reported, simply by being removed 
>> from the database.
>>
>> Plus require supermarkets and other off-road parking to have a 
>> barrier-protected disabled parking area, with the exit automatic barriers 
>> having a transponder sensing the badge.
>>
>> Finally, if the badge holder is not present when a traffic warden/ police 
>> office/ cso checks the car, one "point" will be added to the badge. After 
>> 2 points in any calendar month, the badge is deactivated for the remainder 
>> of the month.
>>
>> That would stop most of the abuse, IMHO.
>>
>> -- 
>> Sue
> 
> Good idea I suggested that the BB should be all part and parcel of the road 
> tax disc also, cut down on paperwork saving the planet in the process.

Many bb holders don't drive or even have a car.


> Considering the various councils now employ private traffic wardens how 
> about having the wardens do a sweep as they pass a car park? They would 
> nearly always find someone. I know that private car parks are exempt? from 
> traffic wardens but why. Also I do seem to recall a few years back that this 
> had actually been put into action, am I mistaken? 

This would need extra traffic wardens to be employed and would take them 
away from their primary role, which is to keep traffic moving.

Plus, at present, other than for obvious forgeries, they would have to 
observe the vehicle arrive without the badge holder and start to depart 
without them.

A few CCTV cameras with a suitable notice would probably do as well...

> Another thought,
> considering the government wish folk off the road 'to save the planet' 
> anyone found with a dodgy BB should loose licence for life. Make it a damned 
> unattractive option. 

Punishment, no matter how severe, is not going to deter without at least 
some perception that one could actually be caught...

> However it does seem that a lot of mis-use by dodgy 
> BB's are actually the very lawyers in the city! 

I very much doubt that. The Law/Bar Society would certainly strike off 
any member who fraudulently issued a forged document for pecuniary gain. 
They are rather hot on things like that. Ineptitude and 
Misrepresentation is fine - but not forgery..

> When an MP parks openly in a 
> disabled bay at a railway station what chance has anyone got of being done, 
> he did not even display a badge. 
> 
> 
Ah, Totnes station, IIRC. Lazy bugger - there are loads of parking 
within walking distance.

I do hope that all the disabled members of his flock, and their friends 
and neighbours and relatives, remember, come election time. I doubt that 
he will stand again, though.

-- 
Sue

* Palindrome wrote, On 11/09/2007 23:37:

> 
> I would suggest that what is needed is an RFID chipped badge - that gets 
> rid of the duplicated copies and theft of badges - a stolen one would be 
> rendered useless, within hours of being reported, simply by being 
> removed from the database.

Yes, I think that would be an excellent approach.  Of course, stolen 
ones would probably still be usable for on street parking but it would 
certainly help.

> Plus require supermarkets and other off-road parking to have a 
> barrier-protected disabled parking area, with the exit automatic 
> barriers having a transponder sensing the badge.
> 
> Finally, if the badge holder is not present when a traffic warden/ 
> police office/ cso checks the car, one "point" will be added to the 
> badge. After 2 points in any calendar month, the badge is deactivated 
> for the remainder of the month.

The problem with that is that the badge holder will probably only be 
present for a few minutes, when arriving and leaving.  In between 
those times, they are likely to be away from the car and unavailable 
for checking.

Even if the warden (or other official) was present when the car either 
arrived or left (but not both), it would be hard for them to 
differentiate between cheats and people who were using the badge 
legitimately to drop off or collect the badge holder.



-- 
Cheers, Serena
The human race has one really effective weapon, and that is laughter.
(Mark Twain)

* Cyberwraith wrote, On 12/09/2007 00:00:
> 
> Good idea I suggested that the BB should be all part and parcel of the road 
> tax disc also, cut down on paperwork saving the planet in the process. 

There are a lot of major problems with that idea.  A lot of us don't 
have our own cars, or even driving licences  and so would be left 
without a blue badge.  It would also allow (or at least, make it even 
harder to prevent) able bodied family members to use the blue badge, 
even when the disabled person wasn't there.

I remember, some years ago, when I still had a car but had stopped 
driving, there was a discussion about this suggestion (I forget 
whether it was you, or someone else, who had suggested it that time). 
   By chance, that day my carer had taken my car to do the shopping. 
If the parking concession was attached to the car, rather than the 
person, she would have been able to use the disabled bays, despite 
being able bodied.  The following day though, a friend was coming down 
to take me for an outing.  She was driving her own car and so, under 
your scheme, we would not have been able to use the disabled bays, 
even though I was in the car, as was my wheelchair.


-- 
Cheers, Serena
She didn't know it couldn't be done, so she went ahead and did it (Anon)

Serena Blanchflower wrote:
> * Palindrome wrote, On 11/09/2007 23:37:
> 
>>
>> I would suggest that what is needed is an RFID chipped badge - that 
>> gets rid of the duplicated copies and theft of badges - a stolen one 
>> would be rendered useless, within hours of being reported, simply by 
>> being removed from the database.
> 
> Yes, I think that would be an excellent approach.  Of course, stolen 
> ones would probably still be usable for on street parking but it would 
> certainly help.

Traffic wardens, even police cars, could have RFID readers to scan the 
car (and hence the badge) as they walked/drove past. It would only take 
an instant to spot a car without a badge. A quick photograph and a fixed 
penalty ticket in the post..

> 
>> Plus require supermarkets and other off-road parking to have a 
>> barrier-protected disabled parking area, with the exit automatic 
>> barriers having a transponder sensing the badge.
>>
>> Finally, if the badge holder is not present when a traffic warden/ 
>> police office/ cso checks the car, one "point" will be added to the 
>> badge. After 2 points in any calendar month, the badge is deactivated 
>> for the remainder of the month.
> 
> The problem with that is that the badge holder will probably only be 
> present for a few minutes, when arriving and leaving.  In between those 
> times, they are likely to be away from the car and unavailable for 
> checking.
> 
> Even if the warden (or other official) was present when the car either 
> arrived or left (but not both), it would be hard for them to 
> differentiate between cheats and people who were using the badge 
> legitimately to drop off or collect the badge holder.
> 
I was only thinking of such checks being carried out as the vehicle 
arrives or leaves.

I reckon that:

1) if a car arrives without the badge holder, the driver should be given 
5 mins to produce them.  No badge holder within that time, 1 point.

2) if a car is in a bay for 5 mins and the driver returns without a 
badgeholder, then 1 point.

In both cases, the warden can afford the 5 minutes needed to complete 
the check.

In the first situation, 5 mins is long enough for able bodied drivers to 
collect a badge holder waiting for their arrival.

In the second, 5 mins is long enough for able bodied drivers to escort 
the badge holder to the place intended.

The points scheme allows for those odd instances where things take much 
longer than intended.

-- 
Sue

"Palindrome"  wrote in message 
news:kVNFi.71684$CK1.5166@fe04.news.easynews.com...
> Serena Blanchflower wrote:
>> * Palindrome wrote, On 11/09/2007 23:37:
>>
>>>
>>> I would suggest that what is needed is an RFID chipped badge - that gets 
>>> rid of the duplicated copies and theft of badges - a stolen one would be 
>>> rendered useless, within hours of being reported, simply by being 
>>> removed from the database.
>>
>> Yes, I think that would be an excellent approach.  Of course, stolen ones 
>> would probably still be usable for on street parking but it would 
>> certainly help.
>
> Traffic wardens, even police cars, could have RFID readers to scan the car 
> (and hence the badge) as they walked/drove past. It would only take an 
> instant to spot a car without a badge. A quick photograph and a fixed 
> penalty ticket in the post..
>
>>
>>> Plus require supermarkets and other off-road parking to have a 
>>> barrier-protected disabled parking area, with the exit automatic 
>>> barriers having a transponder sensing the badge.
>>>
>>> Finally, if the badge holder is not present when a traffic warden/ 
>>> police office/ cso checks the car, one "point" will be added to the 
>>> badge. After 2 points in any calendar month, the badge is deactivated 
>>> for the remainder of the month.
>>
>> The problem with that is that the badge holder will probably only be 
>> present for a few minutes, when arriving and leaving.  In between those 
>> times, they are likely to be away from the car and unavailable for 
>> checking.
>>
>> Even if the warden (or other official) was present when the car either 
>> arrived or left (but not both), it would be hard for them to 
>> differentiate between cheats and people who were using the badge 
>> legitimately to drop off or collect the badge holder.
>>
> I was only thinking of such checks being carried out as the vehicle 
> arrives or leaves.
>
> I reckon that:
>
> 1) if a car arrives without the badge holder, the driver should be given 5 
> mins to produce them.  No badge holder within that time, 1 point.
>
> 2) if a car is in a bay for 5 mins and the driver returns without a 
> badgeholder, then 1 point.
>
> In both cases, the warden can afford the 5 minutes needed to complete the 
> check.
>
> In the first situation, 5 mins is long enough for able bodied drivers to 
> collect a badge holder waiting for their arrival.
>
> In the second, 5 mins is long enough for able bodied drivers to escort the 
> badge holder to the place intended.
>
> The points scheme allows for those odd instances where things take much 
> longer than intended.
>
> -- 
> Sue
>
First off I do apologise if these points have been made before. I do seem to 
forget stuff these days, now what was I saying, LOL. This is a serious 
problem which does need attention. there are no quick answers unfortunately 
but somewhere between all our suggestions and very possibly more to come, 
could there not be some starting point? I do believe that the people who 
knowingly use false BB should be severely dealt with. Should it turn out 
that a DP had actually sold the BB then that DP should also be dealt with. I 
see many adverts on the Tv and at the cinema for no smoking, drinking etc. 
How about a gov campaign to instruct people that using a disabled bay or a 
false BB is simply not on? I agree that simply looking at a driver does not 
tell you if that person is disabled or not. To look at me you cannot tell, 
until I start to move. Could some kind of barcode be put on a BB which is 
then checked with the photo on file back at the main office / computer. Yes 
I do realise this would mean a hand held unit for the warden etc, but in 
this day and age surely that is possible? After all they wish us to have an 
ID card.

John.

"Serena Blanchflower"  wrote in message 
news:5kpltqF4tk85U1@mid.individual.net...

......

> There are a lot of major problems with that idea.  A lot of us don't have 
> our own cars, or even driving licences  and so would be left without a 
> blue badge.  It would also allow (or at least, make it even harder to 
> prevent) able bodied family members to use the blue badge, even when the 
> disabled person wasn't there.
>
> I remember, some years ago, when I still had a car but had stopped 
> driving, there was a discussion about this suggestion (I forget whether it 
> was you, or someone else, who had suggested it that time). By chance, that 
> day my carer had taken my car to do the shopping. If the parking 
> concession was attached to the car, rather than the person, she would have 
> been able to use the disabled bays, despite being able bodied.  The 
> following day though, a friend was coming down to take me for an outing. 
> She was driving her own car and so, under your scheme, we would not have 
> been able to use the disabled bays, even though I was in the car, as was 
> my wheelchair.
>
>

As you say Serena, this is a very re-entrant discussion topic.  I am in your 
'carriage' on this one!  :-/

I guess that hi-tech authentication will eventually be used, because it will 
provide the most cost-effective way of policing something no-one (other than 
us!,,,) really wants as another Local Authority overhead.  It just might 
come down to <us. being chipped-and-pinned!!

(That was a joke, btw....)

(...really, it was!)

(.....wasn't it?....)

Cheers,

Pete.

* Palindrome wrote, On 12/09/2007 10:01:
> Serena Blanchflower wrote:

>> Yes, I think that would be an excellent approach.  Of course, stolen 
>> ones would probably still be usable for on street parking but it would 
>> certainly help.
> 
> Traffic wardens, even police cars, could have RFID readers to scan the 
> car (and hence the badge) as they walked/drove past. It would only take 
> an instant to spot a car without a badge. A quick photograph and a fixed 
> penalty ticket in the post..

Yes, that would probably work.




>>> Finally, if the badge holder is not present when a traffic warden/ 
>>> police office/ cso checks the car, one "point" will be added to the 
>>> badge. After 2 points in any calendar month, the badge is deactivated 
>>> for the remainder of the month.
>>
>> The problem with that is that the badge holder will probably only be 
>> present for a few minutes, when arriving and leaving.  In between 
>> those times, they are likely to be away from the car and unavailable 
>> for checking.
>>
>> Even if the warden (or other official) was present when the car either 
>> arrived or left (but not both), it would be hard for them to 
>> differentiate between cheats and people who were using the badge 
>> legitimately to drop off or collect the badge holder.
>>
> I was only thinking of such checks being carried out as the vehicle 
> arrives or leaves.
> 
> I reckon that:
> 
> 1) if a car arrives without the badge holder, the driver should be given 
> 5 mins to produce them.  No badge holder within that time, 1 point.
> 
> 2) if a car is in a bay for 5 mins and the driver returns without a 
> badgeholder, then 1 point.
> 
> In both cases, the warden can afford the 5 minutes needed to complete 
> the check.
> 
> In the first situation, 5 mins is long enough for able bodied drivers to 
> collect a badge holder waiting for their arrival.
> 
> In the second, 5 mins is long enough for able bodied drivers to escort 
> the badge holder to the place intended.
> 
> The points scheme allows for those odd instances where things take much 
> longer than intended.
> 

I'm not convinced that it would be workable and I'm sure it would need 
quite a bit longer than 5 minutes.  I really don't think you can 
assume that anywhere the disabled person needs to be delivered to will 
be within 3-4 minutes pushing / hobbling time (to allow the round trip 
to be not much over 5 minutes).

I don't think you can assume / insist either that the badge holder has 
to take the most direct route to their destination and not do anything 
else on the way, just because their pusher won't be staying with them 
for the whole outing.  For example, it seems perfectly reasonable for 
someone to take an elderly (or disabled) friend or relative into town, 
taking them shopping before dropping them off at their ultimate 
destination and walking straight back to the car.  In this case, the 
time away from the car could easily be an hour or so, with the badge 
holder and driver being together up till the last few minutes.

Another approach might be to give Police / Traffic Wardens / et al 
(but *not* vigilantes) the power to insist on the name and current 
location of the badge holder.  They would then be able to phone the 
luncheon club (or whatever) and confirm that Mrs Bloggs had just been 
dropped off by her daughter.

-- 
Cheers, Serena
He who asks is a fool for five minutes, but he who does not ask 
remains a fool forever. (Old Chinese saying)

On 11 Sep, 23:37, Palindrome  wrote:
> Cyberwraith wrote:
> >  wrote in message
> >news:1189530654.879485.197480@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> >> On 11 Sep, 11:47, "********" <***...@hereandtherer.co.uk> wrote:
> >>> "mart2...@hotmail.com"  wrote
> >>> innews:1189422476.288904.66020@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com:
>
> >>>> On 10 Sep, 11:47, "********" <***...@hereandtherer.co.uk> wrote:
> >>>>>> I had a disabilty access issue with a UK based supermarket here in
> >>>>>> Ireland just last week and found that their web site had a comments
> >>>>>> and complaints section, I filled it out and was very surprised by
> >>>>>> the
> >>>>>> fast and efficient way they dealt with it. It might not apply to all
> >>>>>> supermarket chains but in this case Tesco, for them it was, deserve
> >>>>>> praise.
> >>>>> Well your Tesco must be better than mine here in Dundee. I was there
> >>>>> the other day and couldnt get a parking space in the disabled bays
> >>>>> because they were all taken and not one car had a blue badge. To make
> >>>>> matters worse on of the cars parked was a police car! If the police
> >>>>> can
> >>>>> violate the rules then what hope have we got?
> >>>> Shopping at 3am, often find a police car or two in the disabled bays.
> >>>> I've absolutely no objection if they are there on an emergency call -
> >>>> close space to door, quicker inside and all that.
> >>>> Never seen them on emergency inside a supermarket at 3am though.
> >>>> This wasn't 3am though it was 11am and the place was really busy with
> >>> people with badges struggling to park.- Hide quoted text -
>
> >>> - Show quoted text -
> >> Ah, new information.
> >> Yes, often see people with badges struggling to park. Few thousand
> >> blue badges within travelling distance in my area, about 20 town
> >> centre disabled bays.
> >> To be fair to the local council (who tend to make big, big mistakes)
> >> the traffic staff tend to be on the ball about blue badges.
> >> Occasionally see they've ticketed someone for parking in the wrong
> >> place.
> >> BB holders as much as anyone - there are places we can't park too,
> >> despite what some people believe.
>
> >> Penalty notices tend to discourage most from getting more. Though I
> >> have seen a couple of cars with several notices in a year.
>
> >> I don't know of any simple way of making sure people don't misuse our
> >> bays, same as some misuse the badge they have.
>
> >> Martin  <><
>
> > How about the American option? Illegal use of a disabled bay by able bodied
> > people is immediate loss of driving licence.? Just my tuppence worth. This
> > is a subject I feel very strongly about.
>
> I would suggest that you could bring in the death penalty and people
> would still do it - because the chance of being caught is so negligable.
>   (plus the jury wouldn't convict under those circumstances...)
>
> I would suggest that what is needed is an RFID chipped badge - that gets
> rid of the duplicated copies and theft of badges - a stolen one would be
> rendered useless, within hours of being reported, simply by being
> removed from the database.
>
> Plus require supermarkets and other off-road parking to have a
> barrier-protected disabled parking area, with the exit automatic
> barriers having a transponder sensing the badge.
>
> Finally, if the badge holder is not present when a traffic warden/
> police office/ cso checks the car, one "point" will be added to the
> badge. After 2 points in any calendar month, the badge is deactivated
> for the remainder of the month.
>
> That would stop most of the abuse, IMHO.
>
> --
> Sue- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -



Ummm....when my car is parked up I'm never with it. When I come back
to the car (or come to it if being picked up there), thats when I'm
with the vehicle.

Martin  <><

On 11 Sep, 22:38, "Cyberwraith"  wrote:
>  wrote in message
>
> news:1189530654.879485.197480@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>
>
>
>
>
> > On 11 Sep, 11:47, "********" <***...@hereandtherer.co.uk> wrote:
> >> "mart2...@hotmail.com"  wrote
> >> innews:1189422476.288904.66020@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com:
>
> >> > On 10 Sep, 11:47, "********" <***...@hereandtherer.co.uk> wrote:
> >> >> > I had a disabilty access issue with a UK based supermarket here in
> >> >> > Ireland just last week and found that their web site had a comments
> >> >> > and complaints section, I filled it out and was very surprised by
> >> >> > the
> >> >> > fast and efficient way they dealt with it. It might not apply to all
> >> >> > supermarket chains but in this case Tesco, for them it was, deserve
> >> >> > praise.
>
> >> >> Well your Tesco must be better than mine here in Dundee. I was there
> >> >> the other day and couldnt get a parking space in the disabled bays
> >> >> because they were all taken and not one car had a blue badge. To make
> >> >> matters worse on of the cars parked was a police car! If the police
> >> >> can
> >> >> violate the rules then what hope have we got?
>
> >> > Shopping at 3am, often find a police car or two in the disabled bays.
> >> > I've absolutely no objection if they are there on an emergency call -
> >> > close space to door, quicker inside and all that.
> >> > Never seen them on emergency inside a supermarket at 3am though.
>
> >> > This wasn't 3am though it was 11am and the place was really busy with
>
> >> people with badges struggling to park.- Hide quoted text -
>
> >> - Show quoted text -
>
> > Ah, new information.
> > Yes, often see people with badges struggling to park. Few thousand
> > blue badges within travelling distance in my area, about 20 town
> > centre disabled bays.
> > To be fair to the local council (who tend to make big, big mistakes)
> > the traffic staff tend to be on the ball about blue badges.
> > Occasionally see they've ticketed someone for parking in the wrong
> > place.
> > BB holders as much as anyone - there are places we can't park too,
> > despite what some people believe.
>
> > Penalty notices tend to discourage most from getting more. Though I
> > have seen a couple of cars with several notices in a year.
>
> > I don't know of any simple way of making sure people don't misuse our
> > bays, same as some misuse the badge they have.
>
> > Martin  <><
>
> How about the American option? Illegal use of a disabled bay by able bodied
> people is immediate loss of driving licence.? Just my tuppence worth. This
> is a subject I feel very strongly about.- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


What exactly is the penalty there?
Seems like there are always reports of people driving without a
licence.
Hell, I've handed in my licence and probably will never get it back. I
still own my own car and could get in it and drive it any time I want.
Removal of licence doesn't make a difference. Now removal of the car
might make a difference.

Martin  <><

On 12 Sep, 10:01, Palindrome  wrote:
> Serena Blanchflower wrote:
> > * Palindrome wrote, On 11/09/2007 23:37:
>
> >> I would suggest that what is needed is an RFID chipped badge - that
> >> gets rid of the duplicated copies and theft of badges - a stolen one
> >> would be rendered useless, within hours of being reported, simply by
> >> being removed from the database.
>
> > Yes, I think that would be an excellent approach.  Of course, stolen
> > ones would probably still be usable for on street parking but it would
> > certainly help.
>
> Traffic wardens, even police cars, could have RFID readers to scan the
> car (and hence the badge) as they walked/drove past. It would only take
> an instant to spot a car without a badge. A quick photograph and a fixed
> penalty ticket in the post..
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> >> Plus require supermarkets and other off-road parking to have a
> >> barrier-protected disabled parking area, with the exit automatic
> >> barriers having a transponder sensing the badge.
>
> >> Finally, if the badge holder is not present when a traffic warden/
> >> police office/ cso checks the car, one "point" will be added to the
> >> badge. After 2 points in any calendar month, the badge is deactivated
> >> for the remainder of the month.
>
> > The problem with that is that the badge holder will probably only be
> > present for a few minutes, when arriving and leaving.  In between those
> > times, they are likely to be away from the car and unavailable for
> > checking.
>
> > Even if the warden (or other official) was present when the car either
> > arrived or left (but not both), it would be hard for them to
> > differentiate between cheats and people who were using the badge
> > legitimately to drop off or collect the badge holder.
>
> I was only thinking of such checks being carried out as the vehicle
> arrives or leaves.
>
> I reckon that:
>
> 1) if a car arrives without the badge holder, the driver should be given
> 5 mins to produce them.  No badge holder within that time, 1 point.

Great.
I'd have to rush to where the car is parked. From probably much
further than 5 minutes away.


>
> 2) if a car is in a bay for 5 mins and the driver returns without a
> badgeholder, then 1 point.
>

So I can't send my wife to the car to drop the shopping off while I
nip to the loo?  :)


> In both cases, the warden can afford the 5 minutes needed to complete
> the check.

Actually they can't. A dozen stops like that is an hour. An hour of
not doing the rest of their job.

>
> In the first situation, 5 mins is long enough for able bodied drivers to
> collect a badge holder waiting for their arrival.

No, it isn't.
Its only if simply picking up from that location.

If meeting up for shopping, lunch, banking, or whatever - then back to
the car afterwards (which is perfectly legal), takes longer than 5
minutes.

>
> In the second, 5 mins is long enough for able bodied drivers to escort
> the badge holder to the place intended.

Only if badge holder can move that fast.


>
> The points scheme allows for those odd instances where things take much
> longer than intended.
>

Or the regular instances?

On average when my wife is picking me up, the car is parked for over
an hour in a disabled bay. Dropping me off I'd say she's parked up for
only about 20 minutes or so (usually when travelling by train, she
comes to the platform with me until I'm on the train). Carers looking
out for you are a wonderful thing.  :)

> --
> Sue- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -


Martin  <><

wrote in message 
news:1189599061.823453.141360@22g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
> On 11 Sep, 22:38, "Cyberwraith"  wrote:
>>  wrote in message
>>
>> news:1189530654.879485.197480@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> > On 11 Sep, 11:47, "********" <***...@hereandtherer.co.uk> wrote:
>> >> "mart2...@hotmail.com"  wrote
>> >> innews:1189422476.288904.66020@19g2000hsx.googlegroups.com:
>>
>> >> > On 10 Sep, 11:47, "********" <***...@hereandtherer.co.uk> wrote:
>> >> >> > I had a disabilty access issue with a UK based supermarket here 
>> >> >> > in
>> >> >> > Ireland just last week and found that their web site had a 
>> >> >> > comments
>> >> >> > and complaints section, I filled it out and was very surprised by
>> >> >> > the
>> >> >> > fast and efficient way they dealt with it. It might not apply to 
>> >> >> > all
>> >> >> > supermarket chains but in this case Tesco, for them it was, 
>> >> >> > deserve
>> >> >> > praise.
>>
>> >> >> Well your Tesco must be better than mine here in Dundee. I was 
>> >> >> there
>> >> >> the other day and couldnt get a parking space in the disabled bays
>> >> >> because they were all taken and not one car had a blue badge. To 
>> >> >> make
>> >> >> matters worse on of the cars parked was a police car! If the police
>> >> >> can
>> >> >> violate the rules then what hope have we got?
>>
>> >> > Shopping at 3am, often find a police car or two in the disabled 
>> >> > bays.
>> >> > I've absolutely no objection if they are there on an emergency 
>> >> > call -
>> >> > close space to door, quicker inside and all that.
>> >> > Never seen them on emergency inside a supermarket at 3am though.
>>
>> >> > This wasn't 3am though it was 11am and the place was really busy 
>> >> > with
>>
>> >> people with badges struggling to park.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> >> - Show quoted text -
>>
>> > Ah, new information.
>> > Yes, often see people with badges struggling to park. Few thousand
>> > blue badges within travelling distance in my area, about 20 town
>> > centre disabled bays.
>> > To be fair to the local council (who tend to make big, big mistakes)
>> > the traffic staff tend to be on the ball about blue badges.
>> > Occasionally see they've ticketed someone for parking in the wrong
>> > place.
>> > BB holders as much as anyone - there are places we can't park too,
>> > despite what some people believe.
>>
>> > Penalty notices tend to discourage most from getting more. Though I
>> > have seen a couple of cars with several notices in a year.
>>
>> > I don't know of any simple way of making sure people don't misuse our
>> > bays, same as some misuse the badge they have.
>>
>> > Martin  <><
>>
>> How about the American option? Illegal use of a disabled bay by able 
>> bodied
>> people is immediate loss of driving licence.? Just my tuppence worth. 
>> This
>> is a subject I feel very strongly about.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
>
> What exactly is the penalty there?
> Seems like there are always reports of people driving without a
> licence.
> Hell, I've handed in my licence and probably will never get it back. I
> still own my own car and could get in it and drive it any time I want.
> Removal of licence doesn't make a difference. Now removal of the car
> might make a difference.
>
> Martin  <><
 I agree that many loons drive without a licence, that still makes it 
illegal and when caught punishable. Removing the car is a nice thought, I 
have often found able bodied, aggressive youngsters parked in one of the two 
bays near our Post Office. They threaten any DP who asks about them being 
there. Now if a flat bed pulled up and removed the car well that would hurt 
them in their pockets for return of the car. Basically people seem to think 
that DP's do not really need a special bay and we are all con artists. Never 
forget the ultimate excuse though........."I was only there for two 
minutes!".

mart2306@hotmail.com wrote:
> On 12 Sep, 10:01, Palindrome  wrote:
>> Serena Blanchflower wrote:
>>> * Palindrome wrote, On 11/09/2007 23:37:
>>>> I would suggest that what is needed is an RFID chipped badge - that
>>>> gets rid of the duplicated copies and theft of badges - a stolen one
>>>> would be rendered useless, within hours of being reported, simply by
>>>> being removed from the database.
>>> Yes, I think that would be an excellent approach.  Of course, stolen
>>> ones would probably still be usable for on street parking but it would
>>> certainly help.
>> Traffic wardens, even police cars, could have RFID readers to scan the
>> car (and hence the badge) as they walked/drove past. It would only take
>> an instant to spot a car without a badge. A quick photograph and a fixed
>> penalty ticket in the post..
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>> Plus require supermarkets and other off-road parking to have a
>>>> barrier-protected disabled parking area, with the exit automatic
>>>> barriers having a transponder sensing the badge.
>>>> Finally, if the badge holder is not present when a traffic warden/
>>>> police office/ cso checks the car, one "point" will be added to the
>>>> badge. After 2 points in any calendar month, the badge is deactivated
>>>> for the remainder of the month.
>>> The problem with that is that the badge holder will probably only be
>>> present for a few minutes, when arriving and leaving.  In between those
>>> times, they are likely to be away from the car and unavailable for
>>> checking.
>>> Even if the warden (or other official) was present when the car either
>>> arrived or left (but not both), it would be hard for them to
>>> differentiate between cheats and people who were using the badge
>>> legitimately to drop off or collect the badge holder.
>> I was only thinking of such checks being carried out as the vehicle
>> arrives or leaves.
>>
>> I reckon that:
>>
>> 1) if a car arrives without the badge holder, the driver should be given
>> 5 mins to produce them.  No badge holder within that time, 1 point.
> 
> Great.
> I'd have to rush to where the car is parked. From probably much
> further than 5 minutes away.
> 
> 
>> 2) if a car is in a bay for 5 mins and the driver returns without a
>> badgeholder, then 1 point.
>>
> 
> So I can't send my wife to the car to drop the shopping off while I
> nip to the loo?  :)
> 
> 
>> In both cases, the warden can afford the 5 minutes needed to complete
>> the check.
> 
> Actually they can't. A dozen stops like that is an hour. An hour of
> not doing the rest of their job.
> 
>> In the first situation, 5 mins is long enough for able bodied drivers to
>> collect a badge holder waiting for their arrival.
> 
> No, it isn't.
> Its only if simply picking up from that location.
> 
> If meeting up for shopping, lunch, banking, or whatever - then back to
> the car afterwards (which is perfectly legal), takes longer than 5
> minutes.
> 
>> In the second, 5 mins is long enough for able bodied drivers to escort
>> the badge holder to the place intended.
> 
> Only if badge holder can move that fast.
> 
> 
>> The points scheme allows for those odd instances where things take much
>> longer than intended.
>>
> 
> Or the regular instances?
> 
> On average when my wife is picking me up, the car is parked for over
> an hour in a disabled bay. Dropping me off I'd say she's parked up for
> only about 20 minutes or so (usually when travelling by train, she
> comes to the platform with me until I'm on the train). Carers looking
> out for you are a wonderful thing.  :)
> 


I do appreciate your and Serena's points.

This is only to address the specific instance of an able bodied driver 
and a badge-holding passenger who isn't there at both arrival and 
departure.

There would be some reduction in what could legitimately be done with a 
badge under such circumstances. But these reductions would be mostly 
limiting what the able bodied person could do - not the bb holder.

When picking someone up, there is no need to be in a disabled bay for 
more than a few minutes. The able bodied driver can park up elsewhere 
until either the badge holder or immediate carer phones them to say that 
they are ready and waiting.

When dropping someone off, the whole point of the bb scheme is to be 
able to get close to the destination. Stations, airports, hospitals etc 
have staff who will look after someone - whilst the able bodied driver 
moves the vehicle to a normal parking bay and returns - or all the way 
onto the train/plane. There is very little difference between relying on 
train staff, on the train, or station staff, in the station. The bb 
holder is being dropped off, after all - not being continously escorted 
by the able bodied driver.


I'm sorry but I think that too many able bodied people use the badge for 
their own advantage, eg to allow themselves to do some independent 
shopping, whilst the bb holder does theirs. What they should do is to 
move the car to a regular parking space, once the needs of the badge 
holder have been met.

-- 
Sue

On 12 Sep, 14:35, Palindrome  wrote:
> mart2...@hotmail.com wrote:
> > On 12 Sep, 10:01, Palindrome  wrote:
> >> Serena Blanchflower wrote:
> >>> * Palindrome wrote, On 11/09/2007 23:37:
> >>>> I would suggest that what is needed is an RFID chipped badge - that
> >>>> gets rid of the duplicated copies and theft of badges - a stolen one
> >>>> would be rendered useless, within hours of being reported, simply by
> >>>> being removed from the database.
> >>> Yes, I think that would be an excellent approach.  Of course, stolen
> >>> ones would probably still be usable for on street parking but it would
> >>> certainly help.
> >> Traffic wardens, even police cars, could have RFID readers to scan the
> >> car (and hence the badge) as they walked/drove past. It would only take
> >> an instant to spot a car without a badge. A quick photograph and a fixed
> >> penalty ticket in the post..
>
> >>>> Plus require supermarkets and other off-road parking to have a
> >>>> barrier-protected disabled parking area, with the exit automatic
> >>>> barriers having a transponder sensing the badge.
> >>>> Finally, if the badge holder is not present when a traffic warden/
> >>>> police office/ cso checks the car, one "point" will be added to the
> >>>> badge. After 2 points in any calendar month, the badge is deactivated
> >>>> for the remainder of the month.
> >>> The problem with that is that the badge holder will probably only be
> >>> present for a few minutes, when arriving and leaving.  In between those
> >>> times, they are likely to be away from the car and unavailable for
> >>> checking.
> >>> Even if the warden (or other official) was present when the car either
> >>> arrived or left (but not both), it would be hard for them to
> >>> differentiate between cheats and people who were using the badge
> >>> legitimately to drop off or collect the badge holder.
> >> I was only thinking of such checks being carried out as the vehicle
> >> arrives or leaves.
>
> >> I reckon that:
>
> >> 1) if a car arrives without the badge holder, the driver should be given
> >> 5 mins to produce them.  No badge holder within that time, 1 point.
>
> > Great.
> > I'd have to rush to where the car is parked. From probably much
> > further than 5 minutes away.
>
> >> 2) if a car is in a bay for 5 mins and the driver returns without a
> >> badgeholder, then 1 point.
>
> > So I can't send my wife to the car to drop the shopping off while I
> > nip to the loo?  :)
>
> >> In both cases, the warden can afford the 5 minutes needed to complete
> >> the check.
>
> > Actually they can't. A dozen stops like that is an hour. An hour of
> > not doing the rest of their job.
>
> >> In the first situation, 5 mins is long enough for able bodied drivers to
> >> collect a badge holder waiting for their arrival.
>
> > No, it isn't.
> > Its only if simply picking up from that location.
>
> > If meeting up for shopping, lunch, banking, or whatever - then back to
> > the car afterwards (which is perfectly legal), takes longer than 5
> > minutes.
>
> >> In the second, 5 mins is long enough for able bodied drivers to escort
> >> the badge holder to the place intended.
>
> > Only if badge holder can move that fast.
>
> >> The points scheme allows for those odd instances where things take much
> >> longer than intended.
>
> > Or the regular instances?
>
> > On average when my wife is picking me up, the car is parked for over
> > an hour in a disabled bay. Dropping me off I'd say she's parked up for
> > only about 20 minutes or so (usually when travelling by train, she
> > comes to the platform with me until I'm on the train). Carers looking
> > out for you are a wonderful thing.  :)
>
> I do appreciate your and Serena's points.
>
> This is only to address the specific instance of an able bodied driver
> and a badge-holding passenger who isn't there at both arrival and
> departure.
>
> There would be some reduction in what could legitimately be done with a
> badge under such circumstances. But these reductions would be mostly
> limiting what the able bodied person could do - not the bb holder.
>
> When picking someone up, there is no need to be in a disabled bay for
> more than a few minutes. The able bodied driver can park up elsewhere
> until either the badge holder or immediate carer phones them to say that
> they are ready and waiting.
>
> When dropping someone off, the whole point of the bb scheme is to be
> able to get close to the destination. Stations, airports, hospitals etc
> have staff who will look after someone - whilst the able bodied driver
> moves the vehicle to a normal parking bay and returns - or all the way
> onto the train/plane. There is very little difference between relying on
> train staff, on the train, or station staff, in the station. The bb
> holder is being dropped off, after all - not being continously escorted
> by the able bodied driver.
>
> I'm sorry but I think that too many able bodied people use the badge for
> their own advantage, eg to allow themselves to do some independent
> shopping, whilst the bb holder does theirs. What they should do is to
> move the car to a regular parking space, once the needs of the badge
> holder have been met.
>
> --
> Sue- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

I'll disagree about no need to be in bb bay for more than a few
minutes when picking up.
Many times its not just collecting someone from the area, can be
things to do before getting there.

Simply collecting someone, is even a bb bay needed? I used to pull up
on double yellers back when I was driving to load someone in.
Including a wheelchair user.


Some of us need escorting by an ab. Personally I'm terrible near
railway tracks. But must go near them when travelling by train. Others
can get by on their own without anyone with them. Where there is no
need of an ab, simply dropping off I'll agree doesn't need more than a
few minutes.
If only dropping off.

Yes, the bb scheme does get abused. Badly abused. But will bb holders
be willing to have more hassle if they can get more use out of the
bays?
I've had people tell me I'm not disabled (which is news to me). Others
have said I'm not disabled enough to use a disabled bay.
Many of my friends have had similar confrontations.

Not all of us look different from able bodied people. Or not radically
different.

Martin  <><

* Palindrome wrote, On 12/09/2007 14:35:

> 
> I do appreciate your and Serena's points.
> 
> This is only to address the specific instance of an able bodied driver 
> and a badge-holding passenger who isn't there at both arrival and 
> departure.
> 
> There would be some reduction in what could legitimately be done with a 
> badge under such circumstances. But these reductions would be mostly 
> limiting what the able bodied person could do - not the bb holder.

I don't know what you're basing that on.  In the example I gave, the 
detours on the way to the badge holder's destination were entirely for 
the benefit of the badge holder, allowing them to do some shopping / 
go to the bank while they were out.  What do you think the badge 
holder and their carer should do in those circumstances?


> When picking someone up, there is no need to be in a disabled bay for 
> more than a few minutes. The able bodied driver can park up elsewhere 
> until either the badge holder or immediate carer phones them to say that 
> they are ready and waiting.

What if the badge holder (not the carer) wants to pick something up at 
the shops on the way back to the car?

> When dropping someone off, the whole point of the bb scheme is to be 
> able to get close to the destination. Stations, airports, hospitals etc 
> have staff who will look after someone - whilst the able bodied driver 
> moves the vehicle to a normal parking bay and returns - or all the way 
> onto the train/plane. There is very little difference between relying on 
> train staff, on the train, or station staff, in the station. The bb 
> holder is being dropped off, after all - not being continously escorted 
> by the able bodied driver.

That will certainly be the case for some people, in some circumstances 
but it certainly won't always be true.

> I'm sorry but I think that too many able bodied people use the badge for 
> their own advantage, eg to allow themselves to do some independent 
> shopping, whilst the bb holder does theirs. What they should do is to 
> move the car to a regular parking space, once the needs of the badge 
> holder have been met.
> 

If you are out with a friend or family member (as opposed to a paid or 
volunteer carer), their needs and benefits are likely to be 
intertwined with those of the badge holder.  For example, if a friend 
takes me shopping, you seem to think that they shouldn't be allowed to 
do any shopping on their own account while we're out.  That simply 
isn't realistic and would significantly reduce the enjoyment of the 
outing for both of us.

I do agree that dropping a badge holder off at, for example, a day 
centre, shouldn't licence their driver to go shopping for an hour or 
two but I'm not convinced that that's a major problem anyway.   I 
would have thought that the vast majority of badge misuse was where 
the badge holder isn't involved in the journey at all.  This could be 
through friends / family "borrowing" the badge or people using stolen 
/ forged cards.

-- 
Cheers, Serena
To live is so startling it leaves little time for anything else (Emily 
Dickinson)

Serena Blanchflower wrote:
> * Palindrome wrote, On 12/09/2007 14:35:
> 
>>
>> I do appreciate your and Serena's points.
>>
>> This is only to address the specific instance of an able bodied driver 
>> and a badge-holding passenger who isn't there at both arrival and 
>> departure.
>>
>> There would be some reduction in what could legitimately be done with 
>> a badge under such circumstances. But these reductions would be mostly 
>> limiting what the able bodied person could do - not the bb holder.
> 
> I don't know what you're basing that on.  In the example I gave, the 
> detours on the way to the badge holder's destination were entirely for 
> the benefit of the badge holder, allowing them to do some shopping / go 
> to the bank while they were out.  What do you think the badge holder and 
> their carer should do in those circumstances?

I would suggest that, if the badge holder is capable of being out and 
about with a carer for an hour, then the able bodied driver doesn't need 
to use a disabled bay. They can be pushed/escorted from a normal parking 
space (possibly with the badge holder being dropped off and parked on 
the pavement adjacent to the space whilst the able bodied driver 
manoeuvures into the parking space).

> 
> 
>> When picking someone up, there is no need to be in a disabled bay for 
>> more than a few minutes. The able bodied driver can park up elsewhere 
>> until either the badge holder or immediate carer phones them to say 
>> that they are ready and waiting.
> 
> What if the badge holder (not the carer) wants to pick something up at 
> the shops on the way back to the car?

They inform the driver that they will be a few minutes longer before 
being ready to be picked up - so the driver remains in a regular bay for 
those few more minutes.

> 
>> When dropping someone off, the whole point of the bb scheme is to be 
>> able to get close to the destination. Stations, airports, hospitals 
>> etc have staff who will look after someone - whilst the able bodied 
>> driver moves the vehicle to a normal parking bay and returns - or all 
>> the way onto the train/plane. There is very little difference between 
>> relying on train staff, on the train, or station staff, in the 
>> station. The bb holder is being dropped off, after all - not being 
>> continously escorted by the able bodied driver.
> 
> That will certainly be the case for some people, in some circumstances 
> but it certainly won't always be true.

Hence the "points" suggestion. That will allow for a few exceptional 
events each week/month.
> 
>> I'm sorry but I think that too many able bodied people use the badge 
>> for their own advantage, eg to allow themselves to do some independent 
>> shopping, whilst the bb holder does theirs. What they should do is to 
>> move the car to a regular parking space, once the needs of the badge 
>> holder have been met.
>>
> 
> If you are out with a friend or family member (as opposed to a paid or 
> volunteer carer), their needs and benefits are likely to be intertwined 
> with those of the badge holder.  For example, if a friend takes me 
> shopping, you seem to think that they shouldn't be allowed to do any 
> shopping on their own account while we're out.  That simply isn't 
> realistic and would significantly reduce the enjoyment of the outing for 
> both of us.

No, in that event you will presumably leave the car together and return 
to the car, together.

Once the able bodied person's activities are no longer entwined with the 
bb holder's activities such that the special bay is no longer needed to 
load them into the vehicle, the able bodied person should move the car 
to a regular bay.
> 
> I do agree that dropping a badge holder off at, for example, a day 
> centre, shouldn't licence their driver to go shopping for an hour or two 
> but I'm not convinced that that's a major problem anyway.   I would have 
> thought that the vast majority of badge misuse was where the badge 
> holder isn't involved in the journey at all.  This could be through 
> friends / family "borrowing" the badge or people using stolen / forged 
> cards.
> 

This is the whole point of the suggested "5 mins". The traffic warden 
approaches the driver of a car parking in a disabled bay. If the 
badgeholder isn't present, the warden gives the driver 5 mins to produce 
them. During that time, the warden does his other work in the immediate 
area. After 5 mins, a point is lost, if the badge holder hasn't 
appeared. A bit like a courier parking in a loading bay and claiming to 
be picking up a parcel - after 5 mins and no parcel, the ticket gets 
written.

Similarly, if a vehicle is parked in a disabled bay for more than 5 mins 
and the able bodied driver reappears to drive off without the badge 
holder, a point is lost.

Too many points lost in a week/month - the badge is disabled for the 
remainder of the month.

Obviously, if the badge holder is present at arrival and departure, no 
problem.

If the badge holder is present on arrival but is not going to return - 
then the able bodied driver has 5 mins to get them to their destination, 
or to somewhere where they can be left whilst the car is moved to a 
normal bay. The bay isn't needed any more as the badge holder will not 
be returning to it.

If the badgeholder isn't present on arrival - then the able bodied 
driver has to coordinate the pickup time so that the bay isn't occupied 
for more than 5 mins.

These restrictions are needed *because* the able bodied driver misusing 
the bb will claim, if seen arriving without the holder - that they are 
picking them up - some time in the next n hours. Or if seen starting to 
leave without the holder - that they dropped them off n hours ago.

-- 
Sue

On 12 Sep, 20:39, Palindrome  wrote:
> Serena Blanchflower wrote:
> > * Palindrome wrote, On 12/09/2007 14:35:
>
> >> I do appreciate your and Serena's points.
>
> >> This is only to address the specific instance of an able bodied driver
> >> and a badge-holding passenger who isn't there at both arrival and
> >> departure.
>
> >> There would be some reduction in what could legitimately be done with
> >> a badge under such circumstances. But these reductions would be mostly
> >> limiting what the able bodied person could do - not the bb holder.
>
> > I don't know what you're basing that on.  In the example I gave, the
> > detours on the way to the badge holder's destination were entirely for
> > the benefit of the badge holder, allowing them to do some shopping / go
> > to the bank while they were out.  What do you think the badge holder and
> > their carer should do in those circumstances?
>
> I would suggest that, if the badge holder is capable of being out and
> about with a carer for an hour, then the able bodied driver doesn't need
> to use a disabled bay. They can be pushed/escorted from a normal parking
> space (possibly with the badge holder being dropped off and parked on
> the pavement adjacent to the space whilst the able bodied driver
> manoeuvures into the parking space).
>
>
>
> >> When picking someone up, there is no need to be in a disabled bay for
> >> more than a few minutes. The able bodied driver can park up elsewhere
> >> until either the badge holder or immediate carer phones them to say
> >> that they are ready and waiting.
>
> > What if the badge holder (not the carer) wants to pick something up at
> > the shops on the way back to the car?
>
> They inform the driver that they will be a few minutes longer before
> being ready to be picked up - so the driver remains in a regular bay for
> those few more minutes.
>
>
>
> >> When dropping someone off, the whole point of the bb scheme is to be
> >> able to get close to the destination. Stations, airports, hospitals
> >> etc have staff who will look after someone - whilst the able bodied
> >> driver moves the vehicle to a normal parking bay and returns - or all
> >> the way onto the train/plane. There is very little difference between
> >> relying on train staff, on the train, or station staff, in the
> >> station. The bb holder is being dropped off, after all - not being
> >> continously escorted by the able bodied driver.
>
> > That will certainly be the case for some people, in some circumstances
> > but it certainly won't always be true.
>
> Hence the "points" suggestion. That will allow for a few exceptional
> events each week/month.
>
>
>
> >> I'm sorry but I think that too many able bodied people use the badge
> >> for their own advantage, eg to allow themselves to do some independent
> >> shopping, whilst the bb holder does theirs. What they should do is to
> >> move the car to a regular parking space, once the needs of the badge
> >> holder have been met.
>
> > If you are out with a friend or family member (as opposed to a paid or
> > volunteer carer), their needs and benefits are likely to be intertwined
> > with those of the badge holder.  For example, if a friend takes me
> > shopping, you seem to think that they shouldn't be allowed to do any
> > shopping on their own account while we're out.  That simply isn't
> > realistic and would significantly reduce the enjoyment of the outing for
> > both of us.
>
> No, in that event you will presumably leave the car together and return
> to the car, together.
>
> Once the able bodied person's activities are no longer entwined with the
> bb holder's activities such that the special bay is no longer needed to
> load them into the vehicle, the able bodied person should move the car
> to a regular bay.
>
>
>
> > I do agree that dropping a badge holder off at, for example, a day
> > centre, shouldn't licence their driver to go shopping for an hour or two
> > but I'm not convinced that that's a major problem anyway.   I would have
> > thought that the vast majority of badge misuse was where the badge
> > holder isn't involved in the journey at all.  This could be through
> > friends / family "borrowing" the badge or people using stolen / forged
> > cards.
>
> This is the whole point of the suggested "5 mins". The traffic warden
> approaches the driver of a car parking in a disabled bay. If the
> badgeholder isn't present, the warden gives the driver 5 mins to produce
> them. During that time, the warden does his other work in the immediate
> area. After 5 mins, a point is lost, if the badge holder hasn't
> appeared. A bit like a courier parking in a loading bay and claiming to
> be picking up a parcel - after 5 mins and no parcel, the ticket gets
> written.
>
> Similarly, if a vehicle is parked in a disabled bay for more than 5 mins
> and the able bodied driver reappears to drive off without the badge
> holder, a point is lost.
>
> Too many points lost in a week/month - the badge is disabled for the
> remainder of the month.
>
> Obviously, if the badge holder is present at arrival and departure, no
> problem.
>
> If the badge holder is present on arrival but is not going to return -
> then the able bodied driver has 5 mins to get them to their destination,
> or to somewhere where they can be left whilst the car is moved to a
> normal bay. The bay isn't needed any more as the badge holder will not
> be returning to it.
>
> If the badgeholder isn't present on arrival - then the able bodied
> driver has to coordinate the pickup time so that the bay isn't occupied
> for more than 5 mins.
>
> These restrictions are needed *because* the able bodied driver misusing
> the bb will claim, if seen arriving without the holder - that they are
> picking them up - some time in the next n hours. Or if seen starting to
> leave without the holder - that they dropped them off n hours ago.
>
> --
> Sue- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Ok, simple solution then. Simply make disabled bays only usable for 5
minutes rather than the usual 3 hours (its 2 at our Asda).
Does that meet your requirements personally? Seems to meet your
requirements you are suggesting for others.
As you say, someone can move the vehicle to a normal bay.

Martin  <><

mart2306@hotmail.com wrote:
<snip>
> Ok, simple solution then. Simply make disabled bays only usable for 5
> minutes rather than the usual 3 hours (its 2 at our Asda).
> Does that meet your requirements personally? Seems to meet your
> requirements you are suggesting for others.
> As you say, someone can move the vehicle to a normal bay.

I would remind you that the issue is only that of preventing misuse of 
the bb by the able-bodied. Thus, when the badge holder is present at 
time of arrival and departure, there is no problem and no suggestion of 
(further) limiting the time they can use the disabled bay.

Yes, I would suggest that where the badge-holder is being dropped off by 
an able bodied person -ie transferred to the care of another or able to 
manage on their own after being dropped off - then 5 mins use of a bay 
should be enough. The badge holder is not returning to the bay, so has 
no need of it again. If they can manage on their own once dropped off, 
then they can manage for the time it takes for the able bodied driver to 
move the vehicle to a regular parking space. If they are being 
transferred to the care of another, then 5 mins is enough time to do 
that and release the driver to move the vehicle (and return, if desired).

Yes, I would suggest that where the badge-holder is being picked up by 
an able-bodied driver, then 5 mins use of the bay is enough. The pickup 
time can be coordinated with the badge holder or current carer and a 
regular bay used until just before pick-up, if necessary.

There is always a "someone" to move the vehicle to and from a regular 
bay under such circumstances - the able-bodied driver.

I write as an able-bodied driver who invariably follows the practice 
outlined above. Disabled bays are an essential part of the support 
infrastructure for the disabled - not for my personal convenience. So I 
never stay in one for more than the minimum time necessary.


-- 
Sue

Serena Blanchflower  wrote in
news:5kpltqF4tk85U1@mid.individual.net: 

> * Cyberwraith wrote, On 12/09/2007 00:00:
>> 
>> Good idea I suggested that the BB should be all part and parcel of the
>> road tax disc also, cut down on paperwork saving the planet in the
>> process. 
> 
> There are a lot of major problems with that idea.  A lot of us don't 
> have our own cars, or even driving licences  and so would be left 
> without a blue badge.  It would also allow (or at least, make it even 
> harder to prevent) able bodied family members to use the blue badge, 
> even when the disabled person wasn't there.
> 
> I'll bet 99% of families use the badge without the disabled person being 
there!

Just been on the bbc news website and found that there is to be changes to 
the blue badge scheme to help stop misuse.

read the story here http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/6992921.stm

* Palindrome wrote, On 12/09/2007 20:39:

> These restrictions are needed *because* the able bodied driver misusing 
> the bb will claim, if seen arriving without the holder - that they are 
> picking them up - some time in the next n hours. Or if seen starting to 
> leave without the holder - that they dropped them off n hours ago.
> 

I think we're going to have to agree to differ on this.  In my view, 
there are too many different needs and situations to be able to write 
a firm set of rules which would prevent misuse without putting extra 
restrictions and limitations on the badgeholder.

-- 
Cheers, Serena
I have never heard anything about the resolutions of the apostles, but 
a good deal about their acts. (Horace Mann)