On Jul 27, 5:03 pm, Steve O'Keefe  wrote:
> I have permission from Juneau Press to distribute an excerpt from the
> new book, "Adoption: Uncharted Waters," by psychologist David
> Kirschner, Ph.D., well-known for his work concerning Adopted Child
> Syndrome or ACS.
>
> The excerpt finds the author in prison with New York's most prolific
> serial killer, Joel Rifkin. Kirschner prepared a psychological profile
> of adoptee Rifkin for the defense and spent an unprecedented 110 hours
> interviewing and examining the man who murdered 17 women.
>
> Kirschner has been involved in over 20 homicide cases, most notably
> Joel Rifkin, "Casino Killer" Jeremy Strohmeyer, and serial wife-and-
> mother poisoner, Steve Catlin. He also provides an in-depth chapter on
> adoptee and multiple murderer David Berkowitz -- the infamous "Son of
> Sam." This book provides a rare, inside look how psychology and the
> law mesh in murder trials.
>
> Kirschner is a staunch advocate of opening birth records, which he
> sees as a human and civil right of adoptees. In his book, he shows how
> secrecy, lies, and sealed records can lead adoptees into a fantasy
> life that sometimes explodes in deadly rage.
>
> You can find the excerpt on Joel Rifkin at the following URL -- or
> email me and I will send it as a text file:
>
> http://www.authorviews.com/authors/kirschner/excerpt.php

Adoption is a violation of human rights akin to slavery. It should be
abolished and children should be raised by loving guardians while
maintaining the identity they were born with....its who they are! When
you strip someone of who they are, they are your slave, not "your
child". Every child has only one mother.

"Medium Raya"  wrote in message 
news:1186103355.847209.298700@z24g2000prh.googlegroups.com...
> On Jul 27, 5:03 pm, Steve O'Keefe  wrote:
>> I have permission from Juneau Press to distribute an excerpt from the
>> new book, "Adoption: Uncharted Waters," by psychologist David
>> Kirschner, Ph.D., well-known for his work concerning Adopted Child
>> Syndrome or ACS.
>>
>> The excerpt finds the author in prison with New York's most prolific
>> serial killer, Joel Rifkin. Kirschner prepared a psychological profile
>> of adoptee Rifkin for the defense and spent an unprecedented 110 hours
>> interviewing and examining the man who murdered 17 women.
>>
>> Kirschner has been involved in over 20 homicide cases, most notably
>> Joel Rifkin, "Casino Killer" Jeremy Strohmeyer, and serial wife-and-
>> mother poisoner, Steve Catlin. He also provides an in-depth chapter on
>> adoptee and multiple murderer David Berkowitz -- the infamous "Son of
>> Sam." This book provides a rare, inside look how psychology and the
>> law mesh in murder trials.
>>
>> Kirschner is a staunch advocate of opening birth records, which he
>> sees as a human and civil right of adoptees. In his book, he shows how
>> secrecy, lies, and sealed records can lead adoptees into a fantasy
>> life that sometimes explodes in deadly rage.
>>
>> You can find the excerpt on Joel Rifkin at the following URL -- or
>> email me and I will send it as a text file:
>>
>> http://www.authorviews.com/authors/kirschner/excerpt.php
>
> Adoption is a violation of human rights akin to slavery. It should be
> abolished and children should be raised by loving guardians while
> maintaining the identity they were born with....its who they are! When
> you strip someone of who they are, they are your slave, not "your
> child". Every child has only one mother.

Oh jeez!  Just when I'm defending the anti-adopts this thing  shows up. 
Being born is slavery. Being in a family is slavery.  Marriage is is 
slavery.  Parenthood is serious slavery. Adoption  is not.

Marley

Marley
>

"Greegor"  wrote in message 
news:1188406497.657887.65130@r34g2000hsd.googlegroups.com...
>> > Adoption is a violation of human rights akin to slavery. It should be
>> > abolished and children should be raised by loving guardians while
>> > maintaining the identity they were born with....its who they are! When
>> > you strip someone of who they are, they are your slave, not "your
>> > child". Every child has only one mother.
>
> Marley wrote
>> Oh jeez!  Just when I'm defending the anti-adopts this thing  shows up.
>> Being born is slavery. Being in a family is slavery.  Marriage is is
>> slavery.  Parenthood is serious slavery. Adoption  is not.
>
> Can't every one of those be like slavery depending on
> the means used, the true motives, intentions of those
> involved, and demands made?

Sure, they can, but marriage family is the root and model of all oppression. 
Free people cannot be tied down to family.
>
> The numbers of recent news stories of people Fostering
> or Adopting with bad intent, shallow motives or using
> bad means to obtain children come to mind.
>
> As the output end of the corrupt Child Protection INDUSTRY
> Foster/adopters need to curb their natural desire to believe
> that the means employed to obtain the children were
> truthful, fair or just.  Caseworkers notoriously LIE to
> Fosters about their justifications for WHY the kids were
> removed from their natural parents.   Typically Foster/Adopters
> are told a story that is complete fiction or half truth.
>
> The courts that remove children also have MAJOR problems,
> so just because it says something IN WRITING does not
> mean that it is so either.  Juvenile courts removing children
> from their natural parents and family do NOT operate with
> the legal protections dictated by the Bill Of Rights to
> the US Constitution or existing caselaw.

I've not quibble with any of this.  But until amerikkka ceases to be a 
pediacentric, baybee/child hungry culture, this will continue.  The baybee 
lovers feel they have a right to a kid--anybody's.
>
> Court orders for child removal are obtained in secret
> in one sided "ex parte" courts.
>
> For an actual HEARING a few states have raised the
> standard for burden of proof from Preponderance 51%
> to Clear and Convincing 80 % but I don't know if they
> have stopped using special rules of evidence that
> allow gossip, lies, hearsay or innuendo.
>
> The systems explanation for not following the
> Constitution is that parents are not facing jail or prison,
> therefore they don't need constitutional protections.

This is bullshit, but civil law has lower standards.
>
> They say this because facing incarceration would
> make it a LIBERTY INTEREST and therefore require
> the protections.   The problem with this explanation
> is that child removal issues represent a LIBERTY INTEREST
> even more compelling than prison.
>
> To put it simply, the ""explanation"" for why families are
> not entitled to US Constitutional protections is a LIE.
>
> Did you know though that most families dragged in
> to "dependency court", Juvenile Court or whatever it
> is called in that state don't even GET this hearing?
>
> Their own attorneys con them into "stipulating"
> without explaining the legal hazards of this
> submissive or cooperative position.   This con job
> is usually foisted just 15 minutes before the
> hearing is supposed to take place, and without
> regard to just how pathetic the ""evidence"" really is.
> The ""public pretender"" usually won't tell the
> client that the "hearing" announced by court notices
> was miraculously scheduled ON THE DOCKET
> to be only 15 minutes long.
> That's because the court is complicit in what I call
> the "stipulation scam".   The court scheduled
> hearing was actually scheduled as what a
> prosecutor called a "pre-pre trial".

This is bullshit, of course.  The state needs to get out of welfare. We have 
the Progressive Era to thank for this, when 100 years ago they turned over 
policing duties to do-gooding middle class social engineers.
>
> There are many more things wrong about this process,
> but this should suffice to clarify for Fosters/Adopters
> why Family Rights people claim that the system
> basically steals children.
>
> I understand that caseworkers and Foster/Adopters
> have self serving reasons to want to believe that
> what they have their hands in is legal, right and just.
>
> As people shed this "self interest" motive and look
> at the truth, more and more caseworkers and fosters
> are turning AGAINST the system that once benefitted them.
>
> I would suggest that Fosters stop lapping up the
> garbage horror stories from the crusading nut case
> caseworkers and start seeking the TRUTH behind
> how and why the children were "obtained".
>
> When I thought they only stepped into cases
> of genuine ABUSE, it made sense, but the
> reality is that most child removals are for
> slippery slope "neglect" complaints like
> "household clutter" or caseworker fears that
> read like the "Chicken Little" story.
>
> If Fosters ever experience a child abuse investigation,
> remember that you are NOT investigated by normal
> Child Protection investigators, but by agents of the
> FOSTER authority.  (a few states stopped this double standard)
>
> The Child Protection INDUSTRY is having a Public
> Relations DISASTER with all of the news stories
> of Child ""Protection"" abuses OF FAMILIES and
> NIGHTMARE disasters in state care that can no
> longer be explained away as anomolous,
> anecdotal or "isolated incidents".
>
> Fosters and Adopters, continue to be "true believers"
> in the Child Protection INDUSTRY and you will
> join in their disgraces.
>
> I personally think that the basic concept of
> a BUREAUCRACY second guessing parents
> (The huge "neglect" category) is absurd on the face of it.

Very good analysis.  I'll call in somthing radical though.,  Stop breeding.

Marley
>

"Greegor"  wrote in message 
news:1188431757.102008.54660@r29g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
> Marley wrote
>> marriage family is the root and model of all oppression.
>> Free people cannot be tied down to family.
>
> What if somebody freely chooses to be obligated thus?

Then they are stupid and do not deserve anyone sympathy.
>
> Marley wote
>> until [America] ceases to be a pediacentric,
>> baybee/child hungry culture, this will continue.
>> The baybee lovers feel they have a right to a kid--anybody's.
>
> A bit extreme perhaps but I agree that obsession
> does drive people to covet other people's children.
>
> G > The systems explanation for not following the
> G > Constitution is that parents are not facing jail or prison,
> G > therefore they don't need constitutional protections.
>
> Marley wrote
>> [ ] , but civil law has lower standards.
>
> LIBERTY INTERESTS involved dictate HIGH standards,
> more like a criminal murder trial, but apparently they
> came up with these substandard courts to make it
> easy for incompetent caseworkers to make cases.
> Judges even tolerate what they know to be perjury.
>
> Marley wrote
>> [] The state needs to get out of welfare. We have the
>> Progressive Era to thank for this, when 100 years ago
>> they turned over policing duties to do-gooding
>> middle class social engineers.
>
> Interesting explanation.
> Family Rights people have seen mocked some of
> the rediculous "Social Engineering" apparent in the
> functioning of the system.

Child welare is rooted in eugenics.

>
> Marley wrote
>> Very good analysis.  I'll call in [something] radical though.,  Stop 
>> breeding.
>
> It certainly is radical, especially if freedom is an issue.

We cannot have freedom as long as brats run the streets and steal our tax 
dollars via property taxes.  Make people responsible for their own kids.

Marley

"Greegor"  wrote in message 
news:1188442894.133142.284470@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>M > marriage family is the root and model of all oppression.
> M > Free people cannot be tied down to family.
>
> G > What if somebody freely chooses to be obligated thus?
>
> M > Then they are stupid and do not deserve anyone sympathy.
>
> To say you're not a happy camper is an understatement.

I chose to be free and uncumbered.  Families control and oppress.  You have 
to wait for everybody to die off before you can do what you want.
>
>> > Marley wote
>> >> until [America] ceases to be a pediacentric,
>> >> baybee/child hungry culture, this will continue.
>> >> The baybee lovers feel they have a right to a kid--anybody's.
>>
>> > A bit extreme perhaps but I agree that obsession
>> > does drive people to covet other people's children.

I don't kow which is worse:  adoption or social engineering through 
fostercare.  They both have the same effect.  The transfer of children from 
the "less" to the "more" desireable.  Just think of all the fun people could 
have if they'd stop wasting their money on children and get lives of their 
own.
>>
>> > G > The systems explanation for not following the
>
>> > Marley wrote
>> >> Very good analysis.  I'll call in [something] radical though.,  Stop
>> >> breeding.
>>
>> > It certainly is radical, especially if freedom is an issue.
>>
>> We cannot have freedom as long as brats
>> run the streets and steal our tax dollars
>> via property taxes.  Make people
>> responsible for their own kids.
>
> The last time I saw somebody say something
> like that it was coming from a cranky senior citizen.

I've hated kids since I was 10 years old.
>
> You think property taxes all go to youth?

They do in Ohio.  That's how schools are funded--such as they are.  The Ohio 
SC had twice ordered the legislature to come up with new funding schemes, 
since the current scheme is unconstitutinoal, but they refuse to.  I'm' not 
sure how long this has been doing on.  15 years?   Former Gov. loser Bob 
Taft claimed that the legislature is exempt from OSC orders.  There's a huge 
property tax revolt here.
>
> And it's a bad investment?

Sure.  Taxes are bad--espeially when they go towards the upkeep of 
crotchfruit.

Marley
>

"Greegor"  wrote in message 
news:1188453381.192367.63110@y42g2000hsy.googlegroups.com...
>> >M > marriage family is the root and model of all oppression.
>> > M > Free people cannot be tied down to family.
>>
>> > G > What if somebody freely chooses to be obligated thus?
>>
>> > M > Then they are stupid and do not deserve anyone sympathy.
>>
>> > To say you're not a happy camper is an understatement.
>>
>> I chose to be free and uncumbered.  Families control and oppress.  You 
>> have
>> to wait for everybody to die off before you can do what you want.
>
> I don't agree, though I think you make some very interesting  points.

They're always looking over your shoulder.  Families, especially parents, 
should have no legitimacy.They create authoritarian culture. If it wren't 
for familiels, hyu can bet we owuldn't have facsists   running amuck in WDC.

>> >> > Marley wote
>> >> >> until [America] ceases to be a pediacentric,
>> >> >> baybee/child hungry culture, this will continue.
>> >> >> The baybee lovers feel they have a right to a kid--anybody's.
>>
>> >> > A bit extreme perhaps but I agree that obsession
>> >> > does drive people to covet other people's children.
>>
>> I don't kow which is worse:  adoption or social engineering through
>> fostercare.  They both have the same effect.  The transfer of children 
>> from
>> the "less" to the "more" desireable.  Just think of all the fun people 
>> could
>> have if they'd stop wasting their money on children and get lives of 
>> their
>> own.
>
> Good points.  I would suggest that many times the "more desirable"
> are not just economic, but too often intellectually prostitute
> to their ""benefactors"".   Happy stooges seem to be desirable and
> fiery people critical of the system are not.   Or just a plain old
> spoils system.

I aree with you totally.  Those in AdoptionLand who supoport records access 
are called "anti-adoption."  Adoption can't survive except by 
secrecy--according to the adoption industry.
>
>> >> > G > The systems explanation for not following the
>>
>> >> > Marley wrote
>> >> >> Very good analysis.  I'll call in [something] radical though., 
>> >> >> Stop
>> >> >> breeding.
>>
>> >> > It certainly is radical, especially if freedom is an issue.
>>
>> >> We cannot have freedom as long as brats
>> >> run the streets and steal our tax dollars
>> >> via property taxes.  Make people
>> >> responsible for their own kids.
>>
>> > The last time I saw somebody say something
>> > like that it was coming from a cranky senior citizen.
>>
>> I've hated kids since I was 10 years old.
>
> Was that feeling prompted by some experience?
> Were you just a precocious child who identified more with adults?

I thought kids were stupid.  They were hard to understand.  While my 
contemporaries were playing with dolls, I dreamed of going to the hills and 
liberating Cuba. (Fidel betrayed me, ut that's another story.)  Adults, at 
least could be interesting.
>
>> > You think property taxes all go to youth?
>>
>> They do in Ohio.  That's how schools are funded--such as they are.  The 
>> Ohio
>> SC had twice ordered the legislature to come up with new funding schemes,
>> since the current scheme is unconstitutinoal, but they refuse to.  I'm' 
>> not
>> sure how long this has been doing on.  15 years?   Former Gov. loser Bob
>> Taft claimed that the legislature is exempt from OSC orders.  There's a 
>> huge
>> property tax revolt here.
>
> Why aren't people just voting out the rascals?

I haev no idea, other than they are also opposed to abortion, which makes 
you winneable in Ohio.
>
>> > And it's a bad investment?
>>
>> Sure.  Taxes are bad--[especially] when they
>> go towards the upkeep of crotchfruit.
>
> I think BUREAUCRATS are less productive.
> Isn't that closer to the political center of the tax protests also?

Gee. I'll have to think about that.  I don't know.  Bureaucrats and kids 
should both be sent to sweatshops to make an honest living.

Marley
>

"Greegor"  wrote in message 
news:1188507451.458420.16020@e9g2000prf.googlegroups.com...
>G > Why aren't people just voting out the rascals?
>
> MG > I haev no idea, other than they are also opposed
> MG > to abortion, which makes you winneable in Ohio.
>
> Are the economic conservatives shut out there by the
> religious (anti-abortion) conservatives?
>
> Or are there anti-abortion left wingers in some kind of numbers?
>
> I wonder if the "smaller government" economic conservatives
> are ever going to hold more sway...

Abortion  (or anything concerned with sex) is the only thing that matters in 
Ohio.  The anti-aborts heavily control both Houses.  There are no "smaller 
government"  or traditional con leggies for all intents and purposes in the 
state.  The "conservataives" want to control everything we do through 
government force.  Thy recently managed to pass a  bill to shut down strip 
clubs at (I think) midnight and force dancers to stay 6 feet or more from 
customers.  The only reason this passed was nobody wanted to spened a lot of 
tme fighting the original bill which was even worse.  It's all  about 
"protecting the family." And they love foster care and adopti--ionas long as 
it's  "christian."

Marley

"robinjh"  wrote in message 
news:1188477946.368261.132330@50g2000hsm.googlegroups.com...
> On Aug 30, 4:52 am, "Marley Greiner" 
> wrote:
>> "Greegor"  wrote in message
>>
>> news:1188442894.133142.284470@w3g2000hsg.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> >M > marriage family is the root and model of all oppression.
>> > M > Free people cannot be tied down to family.
>>
>> > G > What if somebody freely chooses to be obligated thus?
>>
>> > M > Then they are stupid and do not deserve anyone sympathy.
>>
>> > To say you're not a happy camper is an understatement.
>>
>> I chose to be free and uncumbered.  Families control and oppress.  You 
>> have
>> to wait for everybody to die off before you can do what you want.
>>
>>
>>
>> >> > Marley wote
>> >> >> until [America] ceases to be a pediacentric,
>> >> >> baybee/child hungry culture, this will continue.
>> >> >> The baybee lovers feel they have a right to a kid--anybody's.
>>
>> >> > A bit extreme perhaps but I agree that obsession
>> >> > does drive people to covet other people's children.
>>
>> I don't kow which is worse:  adoption or social engineering through
>> fostercare.  They both have the same effect.  The transfer of children 
>> from
>> the "less" to the "more" desireable.  Just think of all the fun people 
>> could
>> have if they'd stop wasting their money on children and get lives of 
>> their
>> own.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> >> > G > The systems explanation for not following the
>>
>> >> > Marley wrote
>> >> >> Very good analysis.  I'll call in [something] radical though., 
>> >> >> Stop
>> >> >> breeding.
>>
>> >> > It certainly is radical, especially if freedom is an issue.
>>
>> >> We cannot have freedom as long as brats
>> >> run the streets and steal our tax dollars
>> >> via property taxes.  Make people
>> >> responsible for their own kids.
>>
>> > The last time I saw somebody say something
>> > like that it was coming from a cranky senior citizen.
>>
>> I've hated kids since I was 10 years old.
>>
>>
>>
>> > You think property taxes all go to youth?
>>
>> They do in Ohio.  That's how schools are funded--such as they are.  The 
>> Ohio
>> SC had twice ordered the legislature to come up with new funding schemes,
>> since the current scheme is unconstitutinoal, but they refuse to.  I'm' 
>> not
>> sure how long this has been doing on.  15 years?   Former Gov. loser Bob
>> Taft claimed that the legislature is exempt from OSC orders.  There's a 
>> huge
>> property tax revolt here.
>>
>>
>>
>> > And it's a bad investment?
>>
>> Sure.  Taxes are bad--espeially when they go towards the upkeep of
>> crotchfruit.
>>
>> Marley
>>
>>
>
>
> Hello Marley
>
> Why's this thread suddenly appeared cross posted to
> 'uk.people.adoption.misc',  mid-thread? Good to see you here anyway

I have no idea.
>
> Marriage ain't as popular here as it is in the US of A, plenty of
> crotchfruit walking the streets though and a lot more of our taxes
> spent on it, on the assumption, I assume, that children who've had
> much public money squandered upon their education and general
> wellbeing will be socially productive adults one day. Doesn't always
> seem to work out that way though.

You mean like Tony Blair?
>
> Been trying to find the origin of the term crotchfruit, I'm sure I
> remember it being in Ulysses (James Joyce) but can't find any
> reference to its appearance there, on the net.

I don't know.  I first ran across it on alt.support-childfree.  I'd like to 
know, too.

Marley
>
>
> Robin
>
> http://harritt.eu
>
>