http://www.voxamps.com/us/pedals/tonelable/

This pedal seems to have it all.. anyone own one?

"Lu R"  wrote in message 
news:4adaa391$0$1782$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
> http://www.voxamps.com/us/pedals/tonelable/
>
> This pedal seems to have it all.. anyone own one?

Despite complaints from the other groups that you're cross-posting to, 
you're persisting with that strategy.  Are you deliberately trying to piss 
them off?  If so, why exactly?

-- 
Lawrence
"I got such a raging clue that I almost shot clue goo all over Joe." - Frank 
Hardly - 11 October 2006

so what... do you have something to add Mr Logic... ?

do YOU own this news group?





"Lawrence Logic"  wrote in message 
news:giyCm.48378$ze1.40646@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
> "Lu R"  wrote in message 
> news:4adaa391$0$1782$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
>> http://www.voxamps.com/us/pedals/tonelable/
>>
>> This pedal seems to have it all.. anyone own one?
>
> Despite complaints from the other groups that you're cross-posting to, 
> you're persisting with that strategy.  Are you deliberately trying to piss 
> them off?  If so, why exactly?
>
> -- 
> Lawrence
> "I got such a raging clue that I almost shot clue goo all over Joe." - 
> Frank Hardly - 11 October 2006
>
>

In article <4adaa391$0$1782$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>,
Lu R  wrote:
>http://www.voxamps.com/us/pedals/tonelable/
>
>This pedal seems to have it all.. anyone own one? 
>
>

I had one for awhile.

Sounded pretty good, fairly easy to program.

Had to go through a couple when I got it to get
one that worked, but that was the first batch.

It liked the NOS Amperex 7025 I put in it.

Sold it off when I got the Axe-FX, which is a whole different story.

On Oct 18, 8:18 am, clau...@sonic.net (Claude V. Lucas) wrote:

> It liked the NOS Amperex 7025 I put in it.

How did it change the sound?  I have the original ToneLab desktop
version.  Been thinking of swapping out the tube to test out different
voicings.

-d

In article ,
dvaoa   wrote:
>On Oct 18, 8:18 am, clau...@sonic.net (Claude V. Lucas) wrote:
>
>> It liked the NOS Amperex 7025 I put in it.
>
>How did it change the sound?  I have the original ToneLab desktop
>version.  Been thinking of swapping out the tube to test out different
>voicings.
>
>-d
>

I had the desktop one before I got the LE...

Liked it a lot too, but the LE allows an extra effect and has
a bit better digital resolution whichis probably audible.

There wasn't an enormous change after tube swapping in either, but
the museum toob seemed to have a bit more harmonic richness than
the one that came standard, enough for me to notice an improvement.
Fundamentals seemed a bit more distinct and articulate as well,
but it might have been the placebo effect. Nonetheless, it was 
worth leaving the Amperex in place. Much easier to swap tubes on
the desktop one...

"Lawrence Logic"  wrote in message 
news:ZgCCm.48435$ze1.6067@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
> "Lu R"  wrote in message 
> news:4adaebfd$0$1782$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
>>
>> "Lawrence Logic"  wrote in message 
>> news:giyCm.48378$ze1.40646@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>>>
>>> "Lu R"  wrote in message 
>>> news:4adaa391$0$1782$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
>>>> http://www.voxamps.com/us/pedals/tonelable/
>>>>
>>>> This pedal seems to have it all.. anyone own one?
>>>
>>> Despite complaints from the other groups that you're cross-posting to, 
>>> you're persisting with that strategy.  Are you deliberately trying to 
>>> piss them off?  If so, why exactly?
>>
>> I see no harm in cross-posting guitar related topics because it is 
>> ontopic and frankly because I can. Treat me like your TV..If you dont 
>> want to read what I say then dont. :) Now stop posting useless drivel and 
>> accept that I'm within my scope to do what I do ty.
>>
>
> I don't know what you mean by "do what I do ty", so I'll plonk you now 
> just in case it's something rude.
>
> -- 
> Lawrence

LOL..plonk as you plse..:)

On Oct 18, 3:26 pm, "Lawrence Logic" <lawrence-OmitThisBit-lo...@amd-
p.com> wrote:
> "Bob" <a...@b.c> wrote in message
>
> news:COqdnbybM9VFL0fXnZ2dnUVZ_o2dnZ2d@netspace.net.au...
>
> > so what... do you have something to add Mr Logic... ?
>
> > do YOU own this news group?
>
> The OP appeared recently and then started cross-posting, much to the chagrin
> of some of the recipients.  I was merely curious as to whether he was
> deliberately trying to upset them.
>
> I profess no ownership of any newsgroup.  I'm just another poster here,
> although I don't obfuscate my identity by providing a false email address> What's your story?
>
> --
> Lawrence
> "Let all my fans know I love 'em, but a gay fish just can't live in the
> outside world forever" - Kanye West - 8 April 2009

Sorry old chap - Just like to comment that I'm interested to hear any
opinions about the pedal, could you please wait and see if anyone is
going to discuss the actual pedal and any music made with it before
you start flaming people and ruining this thread? thx

-

"Claude V. Lucas"  wrote in message 
news:4adb0784$0$1665$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
> In article <4adaa391$0$1782$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>,
> Lu R  wrote:
>>http://www.voxamps.com/us/pedals/tonelable/
>>
>>This pedal seems to have it all.. anyone own one?
>>
>>
>
> I had one for awhile.
>
> Sounded pretty good, fairly easy to program.
>
> Had to go through a couple when I got it to get
> one that worked, but that was the first batch.
>
> It liked the NOS Amperex 7025 I put in it.
>
> Sold it off when I got the Axe-FX, which is a whole different story.

Does the tube run at high voltage, or is it one of those cold plate types?

Tony D

In article <ZUKCm.48494$ze1.11812@news-server.bigpond.net.au>,
Tony Done  wrote:
>
>"Claude V. Lucas"  wrote in message 
>news:4adb0784$0$1665$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
>> In article <4adaa391$0$1782$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>,
>> Lu R  wrote:
>>>http://www.voxamps.com/us/pedals/tonelable/
>>>
>>>This pedal seems to have it all.. anyone own one?
>>>
>>>
>>
>> I had one for awhile.
>>
>> Sounded pretty good, fairly easy to program.
>>
>> Had to go through a couple when I got it to get
>> one that worked, but that was the first batch.
>>
>> It liked the NOS Amperex 7025 I put in it.
>>
>> Sold it off when I got the Axe-FX, which is a whole different story.
>
>Does the tube run at high voltage, or is it one of those cold plate types?
>
>

I'm not sure of the voltage levels, but there's more than just a plain amp circuit.

According to the Vox website...

"The power amp section on the ToneLab LE features our
patented VOX Valve Reactor circuitry.

This unique technology enables these units to provide the sound,
feel and dynamic range that, until now, were only possible with
amultitude of all-tube amplifiers. The Valve Reactor circuit uses
a 12AX7 dual triode vacuum tube, a virtual output transformer and
a dummy speaker circuit that simulates the reactive load of a real
speaker. It reconfigures itself so that its characteristics are
the same as the amps it’s modeling (class A, class AB, negative
feedback circuit, etc.). This means that all of the nuances of the
original amp model including sound, feel, distortion and presence
are reproduced."

I had no complaints about either ToneLab I owned. Both sounded pretty good.

"eric weasel"  wrote in message 
news:hbg02j$9kj$1@news.eternal-september.org...
> Tony Done wrote:
>>
>> "Claude V. Lucas"  wrote in message 
>> news:4adb0784$0$1665$742ec2ed@news.sonic.net...
>>> In article <4adaa391$0$1782$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>,
>>> Lu R  wrote:
>>>> http://www.voxamps.com/us/pedals/tonelable/
>>>>
>>>> This pedal seems to have it all.. anyone own one?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>> I had one for awhile.
>>>
>>> Sounded pretty good, fairly easy to program.
>>>
>>> Had to go through a couple when I got it to get
>>> one that worked, but that was the first batch.
>>>
>>> It liked the NOS Amperex 7025 I put in it.
>>>
>>> Sold it off when I got the Axe-FX, which is a whole different story.
>>
>> Does the tube run at high voltage, or is it one of those cold plate 
>> types?
>>
>> Tony D
>>
>
> It's a cold plate setup.  They actually have an orange LED behind the tube 
> to make it look as though it's glowing.
>
> eric

That's kinda funny.

Jim

You can hear some sound examples here if you like 
http://www.valvetronix.net/valvetronix/tonelab-se-le/model_3_name_1.html

Cheers.

Si

"Lu R"  wrote in message 
news:4adaa391$0$1782$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au...
> http://www.voxamps.com/us/pedals/tonelable/
>
> This pedal seems to have it all.. anyone own one?
>

On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 06:09:16 GMT, "Lawrence Logic"
 wrote:

>> This pedal seems to have it all.. anyone own one?
>
  I own one of the original Tone Labs.  It's by far the best amp
modeler I've had (Pod and J-Station).  I use it live, set my amp clean
and have a MIDI controller to change patches and volume.  My only
complaints would be with the FX models.  They are accurate enough
models of FX units some of which I'd prefer to be different.  Also, I
really wish the wah wah FX had an assignable  MIDI CC controller so it
could be easily controlled with a standard MIDI controller pedal.

On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 20:29:45 GMT, "Tony Done" 
wrote:

>Does the tube run at high voltage, or is it one of those cold plate types?

  It's low voltage.  You can find the service manual online that shows
the schematic.

In article <hbg3os$an9$1@news.eternal-september.org>,
eric weasel   wrote:
>Claude V. Lucas wrote:
>> In article <4adaa391$0$1782$afc38c87@news.optusnet.com.au>,
>> Lu R  wrote:
>>> http://www.voxamps.com/us/pedals/tonelable/
>>>
>>> This pedal seems to have it all.. anyone own one? 
>>>
>>>
>> 
>> I had one for awhile.
>> 
>> Sounded pretty good, fairly easy to program.
>> 
>> Had to go through a couple when I got it to get
>> one that worked, but that was the first batch.
>> 
>> It liked the NOS Amperex 7025 I put in it.
>> 
>> Sold it off when I got the Axe-FX, which is a whole different story.
>
>
>How do you like the Axe-FX?

Still in love after with it after more than a year.

It can be challenging to program.

I don't really miss any of the forty or so amps I've had over the years
that are gone, except maybe one special Marshall...

"David Light" <!dplight@cox.net> wrote in message 
news:4adbac8c.4180515@news.east.cox.net...
> On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 20:29:45 GMT, "Tony Done" 
> wrote:
>
>>Does the tube run at high voltage, or is it one of those cold plate types?
>
>  It's low voltage.  You can find the service manual online that shows
> the schematic.

<g> Seeing the schematic won't help the likes of me. The Blackstar tube 
pedals claim quite specifically to use a high voltage (about 400?) for the 
tubes, and that the filament can be seen to glow. However, they still have 
an LED below the tube. They say it is the power indicator light, but it 
seems like a bit of cosmetic nonsense to me.

Can any of you tube/effects guys/gals tell me whether a cold plate tube is 
anything more than a gimmick? Eg would you be just a well served with a few 
more germanium diodes?

Tony D

Tony Done wrote:
> 
> "David Light" <!dplight@cox.net> wrote in message 
> news:4adbac8c.4180515@news.east.cox.net...
>> On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 20:29:45 GMT, "Tony Done" 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Does the tube run at high voltage, or is it one of those cold plate 
>>> types?
>>
>>  It's low voltage.  You can find the service manual online that shows
>> the schematic.
> 
> <g> Seeing the schematic won't help the likes of me. The Blackstar tube 
> pedals claim quite specifically to use a high voltage (about 400?) for 
> the tubes, and that the filament can be seen to glow. However, they 
> still have an LED below the tube. They say it is the power indicator 
> light, but it seems like a bit of cosmetic nonsense to me.
> 
> Can any of you tube/effects guys/gals tell me whether a cold plate tube 
> is anything more than a gimmick? Eg would you be just a well served with 
> a few more germanium diodes?
> 
> Tony D
> 

I think you mean STARVED plate.  There's a lot to be found, if you do a 
google search.  I'm too lazy to look things up to verify my memory, and 
I don't want to add to what has A LOT of myth and misinformation already 
associated with it.  ...like "Tube Driver pedals with AC plugs are 
better."  Fact is:  that AC line feeds a LOW VOLTAGE transformer. 
Another myth:  Ebay ad claims like "this is the pedal that Eric Johnson 
uses."  Fact is: his pedal was MODIFIED to include the "bias" control 
that comes stock in the rackmount unit.

While you're at it, see what you can find on the B.K. Butler designs. 
He has a website, and he's building and selling reissues.  I thought it 
had a history, but maybe that's in an article that I read elsewhere.

My experience with my B.K. Butler Chandler rackmount Tube Driver is that 
it CAN sound pretty good.  I went through many tubes to find one that 
sounds really good, though.  It seems like the low voltage method of 
distortion sounds good with some tubes, and not so good with others.  I 
found that many OLD Ei Yugo tubes sounded pretty good.  In fact, it came 
with a Chandler silk screened tube in it.  But then I found a CEI 
labeled tube that appears to be a Mullard, but is missing the etched 
code and seam at the top of the tube.

Another comment on the wallwart vs. AC line cord nonsense...  There ARE 
"wall wart" units that use tubes that DO operated at "real tube 
voltages."  I have a Hughes and Kettner Tubeman Plus (rackmount) that 
uses a 12 AC wall wart, with an internal transformer to raise that 12V 
to something like 200V (can't remember exactly).  And it's also a good 
sounding unit.

So you CAN'T assume that wallwarts are low voltage (starved plate), and 
line cords are high plate voltage.

On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 17:27:09 -0500, Master Betty wrote:

>> It's a cold plate setup.  They actually have an orange LED behind the
>> tube to make it look as though it's glowing.
>
> That's kinda funny.

It isn't unusual.  12ax7 (and similar) don't really "glow" in normal use
(unless you look at them at *just* the right angle to see the heater
glow).  It seems to me that pretty much all manufacturers that want to
show off that their device (whatever it is) has a real tube in it uses
the LED under the tube technique.

-- 
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sylvain Robitaille                               syl@encs.concordia.ca
 
Systems analyst / AITS                            Concordia University
Faculty of Engineering and Computer Science   Montreal, Quebec, Canada
----------------------------------------------------------------------

"Jim"  wrote in message 
news:vaydnd3U2c_0d0bXnZ2dnUVZ_i2dnZ2d@posted.isomediainc...
> Tony Done wrote:
>>
>> "David Light" <!dplight@cox.net> wrote in message 
>> news:4adbac8c.4180515@news.east.cox.net...
>>> On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 20:29:45 GMT, "Tony Done" 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Does the tube run at high voltage, or is it one of those cold plate 
>>>> types?
>>>
>>>  It's low voltage.  You can find the service manual online that shows
>>> the schematic.
>>
>> <g> Seeing the schematic won't help the likes of me. The Blackstar tube 
>> pedals claim quite specifically to use a high voltage (about 400?) for 
>> the tubes, and that the filament can be seen to glow. However, they still 
>> have an LED below the tube. They say it is the power indicator light, but 
>> it seems like a bit of cosmetic nonsense to me.
>>
>> Can any of you tube/effects guys/gals tell me whether a cold plate tube 
>> is anything more than a gimmick? Eg would you be just a well served with 
>> a few more germanium diodes?
>>
>> Tony D
>>
>
> I think you mean STARVED plate.

Yeah, I was thinking about heater elements and Blackstar claiming that 
their's glow red.


> So you CAN'T assume that wallwarts are low voltage (starved plate), and 
> line cords are high plate voltage.

Thanks, I had already figured out that low input voltage didn't necessarily 
mean low plate voltage. The problem with internet research is that you get a 
"wikitruth", ie facts by consensus as opposed to what they really are. I 
imagine this starved plate question is clouded by a lot of folks expecting a 
lot of different things from them. It looks dodgy to me, so I think I'll 
give the Vox unit a miss. The Blackstar still looks promising, but a 
*decent* multiFX would be nice, the ones I have tried so far have sounded 
like plastic copies compared with the gain channel on my amp. <sigh> Maybe a 
Pod XT.

Tony D

"David Light" <!dplight@cox.net> wrote in message 
news:4adba990.3416281@news.east.cox.net...
> On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 06:09:16 GMT, "Lawrence Logic"
>  wrote:
>
>>> This pedal seems to have it all.. anyone own one?
>>
>  I own one of the original Tone Labs.  It's by far the best amp
> modeler I've had (Pod and J-Station).  I use it live, set my amp clean
> and have a MIDI controller to change patches and volume.  My only
> complaints would be with the FX models.  They are accurate enough
> models of FX units some of which I'd prefer to be different.  Also, I
> really wish the wah wah FX had an assignable  MIDI CC controller so it
> could be easily controlled with a standard MIDI controller pedal.
>

I sure as hell don't own one!  Why have you attributed that question to me?

-- 
Lawrence
"Doctor, my sister's just being difficult.  Maybe you could just examine my 
cervix instead." - Katie Queef - 1 April 2009

"Jim"  wrote in message 
news:vaydnd3U2c_0d0bXnZ2dnUVZ_i2dnZ2d@posted.isomediainc...
> Tony Done wrote:
>>
>> "David Light" <!dplight@cox.net> wrote in message 
>> news:4adbac8c.4180515@news.east.cox.net...
>>> On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 20:29:45 GMT, "Tony Done" 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Does the tube run at high voltage, or is it one of those cold plate 
>>>> types?
>>>
>>>  It's low voltage.  You can find the service manual online that shows
>>> the schematic.
>>
>> <g> Seeing the schematic won't help the likes of me. The Blackstar tube 
>> pedals claim quite specifically to use a high voltage (about 400?) for 
>> the tubes, and that the filament can be seen to glow. However, they still 
>> have an LED below the tube. They say it is the power indicator light, but 
>> it seems like a bit of cosmetic nonsense to me.
>>
>> Can any of you tube/effects guys/gals tell me whether a cold plate tube 
>> is anything more than a gimmick? Eg would you be just a well served with 
>> a few more germanium diodes?
>>
>> Tony D
>>
>
> I think you mean STARVED plate.  There's a lot to be found, if you do a 
> google search.  I'm too lazy to look things up to verify my memory, and I 
> don't want to add to what has A LOT of myth and misinformation already 
> associated with it.  ...like "Tube Driver pedals with AC plugs are 
> better."  Fact is:  that AC line feeds a LOW VOLTAGE transformer. Another 
> myth:  Ebay ad claims like "this is the pedal that Eric Johnson uses." 
> Fact is: his pedal was MODIFIED to include the "bias" control that comes 
> stock in the rackmount unit.
>
> While you're at it, see what you can find on the B.K. Butler designs. He 
> has a website, and he's building and selling reissues.  I thought it had a 
> history, but maybe that's in an article that I read elsewhere.
>
> My experience with my B.K. Butler Chandler rackmount Tube Driver is that 
> it CAN sound pretty good.  I went through many tubes to find one that 
> sounds really good, though.  It seems like the low voltage method of 
> distortion sounds good with some tubes, and not so good with others.  I 
> found that many OLD Ei Yugo tubes sounded pretty good.  In fact, it came 
> with a Chandler silk screened tube in it.  But then I found a CEI labeled 
> tube that appears to be a Mullard, but is missing the etched code and seam 
> at the top of the tube.
>
> Another comment on the wallwart vs. AC line cord nonsense...  There ARE 
> "wall wart" units that use tubes that DO operated at "real tube voltages." 
> I have a Hughes and Kettner Tubeman Plus (rackmount) that uses a 12 AC 
> wall wart, with an internal transformer to raise that 12V to something 
> like 200V (can't remember exactly).  And it's also a good sounding unit.
>
> So you CAN'T assume that wallwarts are low voltage (starved plate), and 
> line cords are high plate voltage.


Perhaps 'cold cathode' or 'not-so-warm cathode' would be a better 
description if the heater is run with so little current that it doesn't 
glow.  The anode voltage ('plate voltage' if you're in the USA) doesn't have 
any bearing on whether the heater glows!

Chris

"christofire"  wrote in message 
news:5a2dnSA9vL_100HXnZ2dnUVZ8tqdnZ2d@bt.com...
>
> "Jim"  wrote in message 
> news:vaydnd3U2c_0d0bXnZ2dnUVZ_i2dnZ2d@posted.isomediainc...
>> Tony Done wrote:
>>>
>>> "David Light" <!dplight@cox.net> wrote in message 
>>> news:4adbac8c.4180515@news.east.cox.net...
>>>> On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 20:29:45 GMT, "Tony Done" 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Does the tube run at high voltage, or is it one of those cold plate 
>>>>> types?
>>>>
>>>>  It's low voltage.  You can find the service manual online that shows
>>>> the schematic.
>>>
>>> <g> Seeing the schematic won't help the likes of me. The Blackstar tube 
>>> pedals claim quite specifically to use a high voltage (about 400?) for 
>>> the tubes, and that the filament can be seen to glow. However, they 
>>> still have an LED below the tube. They say it is the power indicator 
>>> light, but it seems like a bit of cosmetic nonsense to me.
>>>
>>> Can any of you tube/effects guys/gals tell me whether a cold plate tube 
>>> is anything more than a gimmick? Eg would you be just a well served with 
>>> a few more germanium diodes?
>>>
>>> Tony D
>>>
>>
>> I think you mean STARVED plate.  There's a lot to be found, if you do a 
>> google search.  I'm too lazy to look things up to verify my memory, and I 
>> don't want to add to what has A LOT of myth and misinformation already 
>> associated with it.  ...like "Tube Driver pedals with AC plugs are 
>> better."  Fact is:  that AC line feeds a LOW VOLTAGE transformer. Another 
>> myth:  Ebay ad claims like "this is the pedal that Eric Johnson uses." 
>> Fact is: his pedal was MODIFIED to include the "bias" control that comes 
>> stock in the rackmount unit.
>>
>> While you're at it, see what you can find on the B.K. Butler designs. He 
>> has a website, and he's building and selling reissues.  I thought it had 
>> a history, but maybe that's in an article that I read elsewhere.
>>
>> My experience with my B.K. Butler Chandler rackmount Tube Driver is that 
>> it CAN sound pretty good.  I went through many tubes to find one that 
>> sounds really good, though.  It seems like the low voltage method of 
>> distortion sounds good with some tubes, and not so good with others.  I 
>> found that many OLD Ei Yugo tubes sounded pretty good.  In fact, it came 
>> with a Chandler silk screened tube in it.  But then I found a CEI labeled 
>> tube that appears to be a Mullard, but is missing the etched code and 
>> seam at the top of the tube.
>>
>> Another comment on the wallwart vs. AC line cord nonsense...  There ARE 
>> "wall wart" units that use tubes that DO operated at "real tube 
>> voltages." I have a Hughes and Kettner Tubeman Plus (rackmount) that uses 
>> a 12 AC wall wart, with an internal transformer to raise that 12V to 
>> something like 200V (can't remember exactly).  And it's also a good 
>> sounding unit.
>>
>> So you CAN'T assume that wallwarts are low voltage (starved plate), and 
>> line cords are high plate voltage.
>
>
> Perhaps 'cold cathode' or 'not-so-warm cathode' would be a better 
> description if the heater is run with so little current that it doesn't 
> glow.  The anode voltage ('plate voltage' if you're in the USA) doesn't 
> have any bearing on whether the heater glows!
>
> Chris

Oddly, the circuit diagrams for the ToneLab SE and TT available online (e.g. 
http://www.tonelab.net/files/ToneLabSE_Service_manual.pdf) appear to show 
both halves of the valve heater are powered from 6 volts, almost the normal 
working voltage of 6.3 volts, so perhaps the glow of the ends of the heaters 
could be seen if the bright orange LED wasn't there.  The anode voltage 
appears to be somewhat less than 15 volts since the valve is used in a 
circuit with op-amps supplied with +/- 15 V.

Chris

"David Light" <!dplight@cox.net> wrote in message 
news:4adba990.3416281@news.east.cox.net...
> On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 06:09:16 GMT, "Lawrence Logic"
>  wrote:
>
>>> This pedal seems to have it all.. anyone own one?
>>
>  I own one of the original Tone Labs.  It's by far the best amp
> modeler I've had (Pod and J-Station).  I use it live, set my amp clean
> and have a MIDI controller to change patches and volume.  My only
> complaints would be with the FX models.  They are accurate enough
> models of FX units some of which I'd prefer to be different.  Also, I
> really wish the wah wah FX had an assignable  MIDI CC controller so it
> could be easily controlled with a standard MIDI controller pedal.

Im still thinking maybe stand alone pedals are somehow better than allinone 
boxes, thanks for your input David.

Luke

christofire wrote:
> "Jim"  wrote in message 
> news:vaydnd3U2c_0d0bXnZ2dnUVZ_i2dnZ2d@posted.isomediainc...
>> Tony Done wrote:
>>> "David Light" <!dplight@cox.net> wrote in message 
>>> news:4adbac8c.4180515@news.east.cox.net...
>>>> On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 20:29:45 GMT, "Tony Done" 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Does the tube run at high voltage, or is it one of those cold plate 
>>>>> types?
>>>>  It's low voltage.  You can find the service manual online that shows
>>>> the schematic.
>>> <g> Seeing the schematic won't help the likes of me. The Blackstar tube 
>>> pedals claim quite specifically to use a high voltage (about 400?) for 
>>> the tubes, and that the filament can be seen to glow. However, they still 
>>> have an LED below the tube. They say it is the power indicator light, but 
>>> it seems like a bit of cosmetic nonsense to me.
>>>
>>> Can any of you tube/effects guys/gals tell me whether a cold plate tube 
>>> is anything more than a gimmick? Eg would you be just a well served with 
>>> a few more germanium diodes?
>>>
>>> Tony D
>>>
>> I think you mean STARVED plate.  There's a lot to be found, if you do a 
>> google search.  I'm too lazy to look things up to verify my memory, and I 
>> don't want to add to what has A LOT of myth and misinformation already 
>> associated with it.  ...like "Tube Driver pedals with AC plugs are 
>> better."  Fact is:  that AC line feeds a LOW VOLTAGE transformer. Another 
>> myth:  Ebay ad claims like "this is the pedal that Eric Johnson uses." 
>> Fact is: his pedal was MODIFIED to include the "bias" control that comes 
>> stock in the rackmount unit.
>>
>> While you're at it, see what you can find on the B.K. Butler designs. He 
>> has a website, and he's building and selling reissues.  I thought it had a 
>> history, but maybe that's in an article that I read elsewhere.
>>
>> My experience with my B.K. Butler Chandler rackmount Tube Driver is that 
>> it CAN sound pretty good.  I went through many tubes to find one that 
>> sounds really good, though.  It seems like the low voltage method of 
>> distortion sounds good with some tubes, and not so good with others.  I 
>> found that many OLD Ei Yugo tubes sounded pretty good.  In fact, it came 
>> with a Chandler silk screened tube in it.  But then I found a CEI labeled 
>> tube that appears to be a Mullard, but is missing the etched code and seam 
>> at the top of the tube.
>>
>> Another comment on the wallwart vs. AC line cord nonsense...  There ARE 
>> "wall wart" units that use tubes that DO operated at "real tube voltages." 
>> I have a Hughes and Kettner Tubeman Plus (rackmount) that uses a 12 AC 
>> wall wart, with an internal transformer to raise that 12V to something 
>> like 200V (can't remember exactly).  And it's also a good sounding unit.
>>
>> So you CAN'T assume that wallwarts are low voltage (starved plate), and 
>> line cords are high plate voltage.
> 
> 
> Perhaps 'cold cathode' or 'not-so-warm cathode' would be a better 
> description if the heater is run with so little current that it doesn't 
> glow.  

The filament gets voltage and current with the starved plate design.


> The anode voltage ('plate voltage' if you're in the USA) doesn't have 
> any bearing on whether the heater glows!
> 
> Chris 

I think this is another one of those myths.

To begin with, you cannot always see the glowing filament on a 12AX7. 
The fact that a manufacturer goes to the ridiculous extent of putting an 
LED behind a tube to light it up does NOT mean that the filament isn't hot.

"Jim"  wrote in message 
news:yIOdncD9S_HMSEHXnZ2dnUVZ_vOdnZ2d@posted.isomediainc...
> christofire wrote:
>> "Jim"  wrote in message 
>> news:vaydnd3U2c_0d0bXnZ2dnUVZ_i2dnZ2d@posted.isomediainc...
>>> Tony Done wrote:
>>>> "David Light" <!dplight@cox.net> wrote in message 
>>>> news:4adbac8c.4180515@news.east.cox.net...
>>>>> On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 20:29:45 GMT, "Tony Done" 
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Does the tube run at high voltage, or is it one of those cold plate 
>>>>>> types?
>>>>>  It's low voltage.  You can find the service manual online that shows
>>>>> the schematic.
>>>> <g> Seeing the schematic won't help the likes of me. The Blackstar tube 
>>>> pedals claim quite specifically to use a high voltage (about 400?) for 
>>>> the tubes, and that the filament can be seen to glow. However, they 
>>>> still have an LED below the tube. They say it is the power indicator 
>>>> light, but it seems like a bit of cosmetic nonsense to me.
>>>>
>>>> Can any of you tube/effects guys/gals tell me whether a cold plate tube 
>>>> is anything more than a gimmick? Eg would you be just a well served 
>>>> with a few more germanium diodes?
>>>>
>>>> Tony D
>>>>
>>> I think you mean STARVED plate.  There's a lot to be found, if you do a 
>>> google search.  I'm too lazy to look things up to verify my memory, and 
>>> I don't want to add to what has A LOT of myth and misinformation already 
>>> associated with it.  ...like "Tube Driver pedals with AC plugs are 
>>> better."  Fact is:  that AC line feeds a LOW VOLTAGE transformer. 
>>> Another myth:  Ebay ad claims like "this is the pedal that Eric Johnson 
>>> uses." Fact is: his pedal was MODIFIED to include the "bias" control 
>>> that comes stock in the rackmount unit.
>>>
>>> While you're at it, see what you can find on the B.K. Butler designs. He 
>>> has a website, and he's building and selling reissues.  I thought it had 
>>> a history, but maybe that's in an article that I read elsewhere.
>>>
>>> My experience with my B.K. Butler Chandler rackmount Tube Driver is that 
>>> it CAN sound pretty good.  I went through many tubes to find one that 
>>> sounds really good, though.  It seems like the low voltage method of 
>>> distortion sounds good with some tubes, and not so good with others.  I 
>>> found that many OLD Ei Yugo tubes sounded pretty good.  In fact, it came 
>>> with a Chandler silk screened tube in it.  But then I found a CEI 
>>> labeled tube that appears to be a Mullard, but is missing the etched 
>>> code and seam at the top of the tube.
>>>
>>> Another comment on the wallwart vs. AC line cord nonsense...  There ARE 
>>> "wall wart" units that use tubes that DO operated at "real tube 
>>> voltages." I have a Hughes and Kettner Tubeman Plus (rackmount) that 
>>> uses a 12 AC wall wart, with an internal transformer to raise that 12V 
>>> to something like 200V (can't remember exactly).  And it's also a good 
>>> sounding unit.
>>>
>>> So you CAN'T assume that wallwarts are low voltage (starved plate), and 
>>> line cords are high plate voltage.
>>
>>
>> Perhaps 'cold cathode' or 'not-so-warm cathode' would be a better 
>> description if the heater is run with so little current that it doesn't 
>> glow.
>
> The filament gets voltage and current with the starved plate design.
>
>
>> The anode voltage ('plate voltage' if you're in the USA) doesn't have any 
>> bearing on whether the heater glows!
>>
>> Chris
>
> I think this is another one of those myths.
>
> To begin with, you cannot always see the glowing filament on a 12AX7. The 
> fact that a manufacturer goes to the ridiculous extent of putting an LED 
> behind a tube to light it up does NOT mean that the filament isn't hot.

OK, so with the lower plate voltage, you get less current and lower 
amplification factor? Does that mean they are easier to overdrive - if that 
is the term I'm looking for?

Tony D

Tony Done wrote:
> 
> "Jim"  wrote in message 
> news:yIOdncD9S_HMSEHXnZ2dnUVZ_vOdnZ2d@posted.isomediainc...
>> christofire wrote:
>>> "Jim"  wrote in message 
>>> news:vaydnd3U2c_0d0bXnZ2dnUVZ_i2dnZ2d@posted.isomediainc...
>>>> Tony Done wrote:
>>>>> "David Light" <!dplight@cox.net> wrote in message 
>>>>> news:4adbac8c.4180515@news.east.cox.net...
>>>>>> On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 20:29:45 GMT, "Tony Done" 
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Does the tube run at high voltage, or is it one of those cold 
>>>>>>> plate types?
>>>>>>  It's low voltage.  You can find the service manual online that shows
>>>>>> the schematic.
>>>>> <g> Seeing the schematic won't help the likes of me. The Blackstar 
>>>>> tube pedals claim quite specifically to use a high voltage (about 
>>>>> 400?) for the tubes, and that the filament can be seen to glow. 
>>>>> However, they still have an LED below the tube. They say it is the 
>>>>> power indicator light, but it seems like a bit of cosmetic nonsense 
>>>>> to me.
>>>>>
>>>>> Can any of you tube/effects guys/gals tell me whether a cold plate 
>>>>> tube is anything more than a gimmick? Eg would you be just a well 
>>>>> served with a few more germanium diodes?
>>>>>
>>>>> Tony D
>>>>>
>>>> I think you mean STARVED plate.  There's a lot to be found, if you 
>>>> do a google search.  I'm too lazy to look things up to verify my 
>>>> memory, and I don't want to add to what has A LOT of myth and 
>>>> misinformation already associated with it.  ...like "Tube Driver 
>>>> pedals with AC plugs are better."  Fact is:  that AC line feeds a 
>>>> LOW VOLTAGE transformer. Another myth:  Ebay ad claims like "this is 
>>>> the pedal that Eric Johnson uses." Fact is: his pedal was MODIFIED 
>>>> to include the "bias" control that comes stock in the rackmount unit.
>>>>
>>>> While you're at it, see what you can find on the B.K. Butler 
>>>> designs. He has a website, and he's building and selling reissues.  
>>>> I thought it had a history, but maybe that's in an article that I 
>>>> read elsewhere.
>>>>
>>>> My experience with my B.K. Butler Chandler rackmount Tube Driver is 
>>>> that it CAN sound pretty good.  I went through many tubes to find 
>>>> one that sounds really good, though.  It seems like the low voltage 
>>>> method of distortion sounds good with some tubes, and not so good 
>>>> with others.  I found that many OLD Ei Yugo tubes sounded pretty 
>>>> good.  In fact, it came with a Chandler silk screened tube in it.  
>>>> But then I found a CEI labeled tube that appears to be a Mullard, 
>>>> but is missing the etched code and seam at the top of the tube.
>>>>
>>>> Another comment on the wallwart vs. AC line cord nonsense...  There 
>>>> ARE "wall wart" units that use tubes that DO operated at "real tube 
>>>> voltages." I have a Hughes and Kettner Tubeman Plus (rackmount) that 
>>>> uses a 12 AC wall wart, with an internal transformer to raise that 
>>>> 12V to something like 200V (can't remember exactly).  And it's also 
>>>> a good sounding unit.
>>>>
>>>> So you CAN'T assume that wallwarts are low voltage (starved plate), 
>>>> and line cords are high plate voltage.
>>>
>>>
>>> Perhaps 'cold cathode' or 'not-so-warm cathode' would be a better 
>>> description if the heater is run with so little current that it 
>>> doesn't glow.
>>
>> The filament gets voltage and current with the starved plate design.
>>
>>
>>> The anode voltage ('plate voltage' if you're in the USA) doesn't have 
>>> any bearing on whether the heater glows!
>>>
>>> Chris
>>
>> I think this is another one of those myths.
>>
>> To begin with, you cannot always see the glowing filament on a 12AX7. 
>> The fact that a manufacturer goes to the ridiculous extent of putting 
>> an LED behind a tube to light it up does NOT mean that the filament 
>> isn't hot.
> 
> OK, so with the lower plate voltage, you get less current and lower 
> amplification factor? Does that mean they are easier to overdrive - if 
> that is the term I'm looking for?
> 
> Tony D
> 

Lower plate voltages mean less headroom.  But now I'm going to reiterate 
that I'm too lazy to verify my recollection of all of the theory!

On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 03:09:30 GMT, "Tony Done" 
wrote:

>Can any of you tube/effects guys/gals tell me whether a cold plate tube is 
>anything more than a gimmick? Eg would you be just a well served with a few 
>more germanium diodes?
>
  Starved plate designs if anything over emphasize the tube sound.

On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 13:10:17 +0100, "christofire"
 wrote:

>Oddly, the circuit diagrams for the ToneLab SE and TT available online (e.g. 
>http://www.tonelab.net/files/ToneLabSE_Service_manual.pdf) appear to show 
>both halves of the valve heater are powered from 6 volts, almost the normal 
>working voltage of 6.3 volts, so perhaps the glow of the ends of the heaters 
>could be seen if the bright orange LED wasn't there.  The anode voltage 
>appears to be somewhat less than 15 volts since the valve is used in a 
>circuit with op-amps supplied with +/- 15 V.

  I took a look at the schematic too since I wouldn't think they would
run the heaters low.  The heater should glow normally at 6 volts.  I
guess it didn't glow enough.

On Mon, 19 Oct 2009 21:30:20 GMT, "Tony Done" 
wrote:

>OK, so with the lower plate voltage, you get less current and lower 
>amplification factor? Does that mean they are easier to overdrive - if that 
>is the term I'm looking for?

  The gain of the tube would not change so much, but you would run out
of usable output voltage swing.  So yes it would be much easier to
overdrive.  Running the plate voltage low probably also does a number
on the input to output linearity causing more harmonic distortion even
when not run into clipping.

"Jim"  wrote in message 
news:VOCdndIBXsLndEHXnZ2dnUVZ_uqdnZ2d@posted.isomediainc...
> Tony Done wrote:
>>

- snip -

>>
>> OK, so with the lower plate voltage, you get less current and lower 
>> amplification factor? Does that mean they are easier to overdrive - if 
>> that is the term I'm looking for?
>>
>> Tony D
>>
>
> Lower plate voltages mean less headroom.  But now I'm going to reiterate 
> that I'm too lazy to verify my recollection of all of the theory!


That isn't necessarily true.  If 'headroom' is defined as the ratio of the 
maximum possible output signal voltage to the maximum signal voltage for 
normal programme material then an amplifier operating with lower signal 
voltages, and a lower supply voltage, can be designed for as much headroom 
as one that does everything with higher voltages.  It may be a challenge to 
get the noise performance of the two the same but that may not be so 
important in a 'saturation' stage that operates with large signal voltages. 
However, the term 'headroom' may have been given a new, more subjective, 
meaning by people who write reviews in guitar magazines.  It's also possible 
that they're using 'high voltage' as a token for something beyond its 
meaning in electronics, just like 'Class A' is now being applied to Class 
A/B amplifiers because reviewers have misunderstood (or choose to ignore the 
details of) classes of amplifier operation.

All that said, though, it's still interesting that so many products are 
being made with valves when one might expect that, by now, accurate 
simulation of all a valve's dynamic characteristics should be possible by 
DSP.  Does a Vox Tonelab really sound more like a valve amplifier than a 
Line 6 Pod?  I have both and I prefer the distortion sounds of Pod, but that 
is a purely subjective opinion.

Chris

"Tony Done"  wrote in message 
news:MT4Dm.48719$ze1.19653@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
> "Jim"  wrote in message 
> news:yIOdncD9S_HMSEHXnZ2dnUVZ_vOdnZ2d@posted.isomediainc...
>> christofire wrote:
>>> "Jim"  wrote in message 
>>> news:vaydnd3U2c_0d0bXnZ2dnUVZ_i2dnZ2d@posted.isomediainc...
>>>> Tony Done wrote:
>>>>> "David Light" <!dplight@cox.net> wrote in message 
>>>>> news:4adbac8c.4180515@news.east.cox.net...
>>>>>> On Sun, 18 Oct 2009 20:29:45 GMT, "Tony Done" 
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Does the tube run at high voltage, or is it one of those cold plate 
>>>>>>> types?
>>>>>>  It's low voltage.  You can find the service manual online that shows
>>>>>> the schematic.
>>>>> <g> Seeing the schematic won't help the likes of me. The Blackstar 
>>>>> tube pedals claim quite specifically to use a high voltage (about 
>>>>> 400?) for the tubes, and that the filament can be seen to glow. 
>>>>> However, they still have an LED below the tube. They say it is the 
>>>>> power indicator light, but it seems like a bit of cosmetic nonsense to 
>>>>> me.
>>>>>
>>>>> Can any of you tube/effects guys/gals tell me whether a cold plate 
>>>>> tube is anything more than a gimmick? Eg would you be just a well 
>>>>> served with a few more germanium diodes?
>>>>>
>>>>> Tony D
>>>>>
>>>> I think you mean STARVED plate.  There's a lot to be found, if you do a 
>>>> google search.  I'm too lazy to look things up to verify my memory, and 
>>>> I don't want to add to what has A LOT of myth and misinformation 
>>>> already associated with it.  ...like "Tube Driver pedals with AC plugs 
>>>> are better."  Fact is:  that AC line feeds a LOW VOLTAGE transformer. 
>>>> Another myth:  Ebay ad claims like "this is the pedal that Eric Johnson 
>>>> uses." Fact is: his pedal was MODIFIED to include the "bias" control 
>>>> that comes stock in the rackmount unit.
>>>>
>>>> While you're at it, see what you can find on the B.K. Butler designs. 
>>>> He has a website, and he's building and selling reissues.  I thought it 
>>>> had a history, but maybe that's in an article that I read elsewhere.
>>>>
>>>> My experience with my B.K. Butler Chandler rackmount Tube Driver is 
>>>> that it CAN sound pretty good.  I went through many tubes to find one 
>>>> that sounds really good, though.  It seems like the low voltage method 
>>>> of distortion sounds good with some tubes, and not so good with others. 
>>>> I found that many OLD Ei Yugo tubes sounded pretty good.  In fact, it 
>>>> came with a Chandler silk screened tube in it.  But then I found a CEI 
>>>> labeled tube that appears to be a Mullard, but is missing the etched 
>>>> code and seam at the top of the tube.
>>>>
>>>> Another comment on the wallwart vs. AC line cord nonsense...  There ARE 
>>>> "wall wart" units that use tubes that DO operated at "real tube 
>>>> voltages." I have a Hughes and Kettner Tubeman Plus (rackmount) that 
>>>> uses a 12 AC wall wart, with an internal transformer to raise that 12V 
>>>> to something like 200V (can't remember exactly).  And it's also a good 
>>>> sounding unit.
>>>>
>>>> So you CAN'T assume that wallwarts are low voltage (starved plate), and 
>>>> line cords are high plate voltage.
>>>
>>>
>>> Perhaps 'cold cathode' or 'not-so-warm cathode' would be a better 
>>> description if the heater is run with so little current that it doesn't 
>>> glow.
>>
>> The filament gets voltage and current with the starved plate design.
>>
>>
>>> The anode voltage ('plate voltage' if you're in the USA) doesn't have 
>>> any bearing on whether the heater glows!
>>>
>>> Chris
>>
>> I think this is another one of those myths.
>>
>> To begin with, you cannot always see the glowing filament on a 12AX7. The 
>> fact that a manufacturer goes to the ridiculous extent of putting an LED 
>> behind a tube to light it up does NOT mean that the filament isn't hot.
>
> OK, so with the lower plate voltage, you get less current and lower 
> amplification factor? Does that mean they are easier to overdrive - if 
> that is the term I'm looking for?
>
> Tony D
>

Thanks. Can I interpret your comments to mean that a starved plate tube acts 
like a limiter relative to normal plate voltages? That is, at low input 
level the clean amplification factor is similar, but as input levels 
increase the output from the starved plate becomes more distorted and/or 
compressed. I can envisage that as a useful property if you are looking for 
a saturated type of OD.

Tony D

"Tony Done"  wrote in message 
news:HYbDm.48819$ze1.46738@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>
- snip -

> Thanks. Can I interpret your comments to mean that a starved plate tube 
> acts like a limiter relative to normal plate voltages? That is, at low 
> input level the clean amplification factor is similar, but as input levels 
> increase the output from the starved plate becomes more distorted and/or 
> compressed. I can envisage that as a useful property if you are looking 
> for a saturated type of OD.
>
> Tony D


It would be more accurate to think of it as the characteristic of a valve in 
'miniature'.  Whereas half an ECC83 operating with 200 V HT via a 100 k 
anode resistor pulls 1 milliamp to swing the anode down to 100 V, the same 
valve with 15 V HT and a 100 k resistor needs to pull only 10 micro-amps in 
order to swing the anode down by 1 V.  In either case, the resulting voltage 
swing is attenuated in order to feed the signal into a high-gain guitar 
amplifier, 100 times more (40 dB more) in the case of 200 V HT.  The 
difference between the two cases is the behaviour of the valve between the 
two cases: over a range of anode-to-cathode voltages between, say 150 V and 
somewhat less than 100 V; and over a range between, say 14.5 V and somewhat 
less than 14 V.  The latter case could be expected to exhibit greater 
non-linearity because it's outside the intended normal operating range of 
the valve, and it is far more convenient for the manufacturer of an effects 
device to avoid having to provide a 200 V, or whatever, supply when the 15 V 
used by the rest of the (semiconductor) circuitry can be used.

Special valves were developed in the 50s for car radios, some designed to 
work linearly with 12 V HT, and their internal construction was rather 
different from valves like the ECC83 (different cathode coating and closer 
electrode spacing); see 
http://www.junkbox.com/electronics/lowvoltagetubes.shtml for example.

Chris

christofire wrote:
> "Jim"  wrote in message 
> news:VOCdndIBXsLndEHXnZ2dnUVZ_uqdnZ2d@posted.isomediainc...
>> Tony Done wrote:
> 
> - snip -
> 
>>> OK, so with the lower plate voltage, you get less current and lower 
>>> amplification factor? Does that mean they are easier to overdrive - if 
>>> that is the term I'm looking for?
>>>
>>> Tony D
>>>
>> Lower plate voltages mean less headroom.  But now I'm going to reiterate 
>> that I'm too lazy to verify my recollection of all of the theory!
> 
> 
> That isn't necessarily true.  If 'headroom' is defined as the ratio of the 
> maximum possible output signal voltage to the maximum signal voltage for 
> normal programme material then an amplifier operating with lower signal 
> voltages, and a lower supply voltage, can be designed for as much headroom 
> as one that does everything with higher voltages.   It may be a challenge to
> get the noise performance of the two the same but that may not be so 
> important in a 'saturation' stage that operates with large signal voltages. 


Can a 12AX7 still have an amplification factor of 100 with just a few 
volts on the plate, and still have an acceptable noise floor?  I kind of 
doubt it, but that's not even the subject here.  The starved plate 
design is designed for early saturation.


> However, the term 'headroom' may have been given a new, more subjective, 
> meaning by people who write reviews in guitar magazines.  It's also possible 
> that they're using 'high voltage' as a token for something beyond its 
> meaning in electronics,

There's nothing "token" about using typical plate voltages.  Check the 
Data Sheets for 12AX7.



> just like 'Class A' is now being applied to Class 
> A/B amplifiers because reviewers have misunderstood (or choose to ignore the 
> details of) classes of amplifier operation.
> 
> All that said, though, it's still interesting that so many products are 
> being made with valves when one might expect that, by now, accurate 
> simulation of all a valve's dynamic characteristics should be possible by 
> DSP.  Does a Vox Tonelab really sound more like a valve amplifier than a 
> Line 6 Pod?  I have both and I prefer the distortion sounds of Pod, but that 
> is a purely subjective opinion.
> 
> Chris

christofire wrote:
> "Tony Done"  wrote in message 
> news:HYbDm.48819$ze1.46738@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
> - snip -
> 
>> Thanks. Can I interpret your comments to mean that a starved plate tube 
>> acts like a limiter relative to normal plate voltages? That is, at low 
>> input level the clean amplification factor is similar, but as input levels 
>> increase the output from the starved plate becomes more distorted and/or 
>> compressed. I can envisage that as a useful property if you are looking 
>> for a saturated type of OD.
>>
>> Tony D
> 
> 
> It would be more accurate to think of it as the characteristic of a valve in 
> 'miniature'.  Whereas half an ECC83 operating with 200 V HT via a 100 k 
> anode resistor pulls 1 milliamp to swing the anode down to 100 V, the same 
> valve with 15 V HT and a 100 k resistor needs to pull only 10 micro-amps

But there's more than that in NOISE in a guitar signal.

Typical pickups put out 100 mV or better.  Actives put out over a volt.


  in
> order to swing the anode down by 1 V.  In either case, the resulting voltage 
> swing is attenuated in order to feed the signal into a high-gain guitar 
> amplifier, 100 times more (40 dB more) in the case of 200 V HT.  The 
> difference between the two cases is the behaviour of the valve between the 
> two cases: over a range of anode-to-cathode voltages between, say 150 V and 
> somewhat less than 100 V; and over a range between, say 14.5 V and somewhat 
> less than 14 V.  The latter case could be expected to exhibit greater 
> non-linearity because it's outside the intended normal operating range of 
> the valve, and it is far more convenient for the manufacturer of an effects 
> device to avoid having to provide a 200 V, or whatever, supply when the 15 V 
> used by the rest of the (semiconductor) circuitry can be used.

Have you used starved plate effects?

They tend to be picky on tubes.  A tube that sounds great in an amp may 
sound fizzy in a low voltage situation.  I went through tens of tubes 
before I found one I really liked.



> 
> Special valves were developed in the 50s for car radios, some designed to 
> work linearly with 12 V HT, and their internal construction was rather 
> different from valves like the ECC83 (different cathode coating and closer 
> electrode spacing); see 
> http://www.junkbox.com/electronics/lowvoltagetubes.shtml for example.
> 
> Chris 

At one time, car radios used vibrators to raise voltage.  I've never 
heard a guitar preamp built with a low voltage tube, but it's an 
interesting thought.  The obvious problem for most of us:  WHY BOTHER? 
You're gonna want a tube power amp, right?  Can't do that at 12V.

Jim wrote:
> christofire wrote:
>> "Tony Done"  wrote in message 
>> news:HYbDm.48819$ze1.46738@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>> - snip -
>>
>>> Thanks. Can I interpret your comments to mean that a starved plate 
>>> tube acts like a limiter relative to normal plate voltages? That is, 
>>> at low input level the clean amplification factor is similar, but as 
>>> input levels increase the output from the starved plate becomes more 
>>> distorted and/or compressed. I can envisage that as a useful property 
>>> if you are looking for a saturated type of OD.
>>>
>>> Tony D
>>
>>
>> It would be more accurate to think of it as the characteristic of a 
>> valve in 'miniature'.  Whereas half an ECC83 operating with 200 V HT 
>> via a 100 k anode resistor pulls 1 milliamp to swing the anode down to 
>> 100 V, the same valve with 15 V HT and a 100 k resistor needs to pull 
>> only 10 micro-amps
> 
> But there's more than that in NOISE in a guitar signal.
> 
> Typical pickups put out 100 mV or better.  Actives put out over a volt.


I guess I was not paying attention.  You're talking current.  But I 
think there'd still be a serious problems with getting a 12AX7 to 
operate normally at 15V.


> 
> 
>  in
>> order to swing the anode down by 1 V.  In either case, the resulting 
>> voltage swing is attenuated in order to feed the signal into a 
>> high-gain guitar amplifier, 100 times more (40 dB more) in the case of 
>> 200 V HT.  The difference between the two cases is the behaviour of 
>> the valve between the two cases: over a range of anode-to-cathode 
>> voltages between, say 150 V and somewhat less than 100 V; and over a 
>> range between, say 14.5 V and somewhat less than 14 V.  The latter 
>> case could be expected to exhibit greater non-linearity because it's 
>> outside the intended normal operating range of the valve, and it is 
>> far more convenient for the manufacturer of an effects device to avoid 
>> having to provide a 200 V, or whatever, supply when the 15 V used by 
>> the rest of the (semiconductor) circuitry can be used.
> 
> Have you used starved plate effects?
> 
> They tend to be picky on tubes.  A tube that sounds great in an amp may 
> sound fizzy in a low voltage situation.  I went through tens of tubes 
> before I found one I really liked.
> 
> 
> 
>>
>> Special valves were developed in the 50s for car radios, some designed 
>> to work linearly with 12 V HT, and their internal construction was 
>> rather different from valves like the ECC83 (different cathode coating 
>> and closer electrode spacing); see 
>> http://www.junkbox.com/electronics/lowvoltagetubes.shtml for example.
>>
>> Chris 
> 
> At one time, car radios used vibrators to raise voltage.  I've never 
> heard a guitar preamp built with a low voltage tube, but it's an 
> interesting thought.  The obvious problem for most of us:  WHY BOTHER? 
> You're gonna want a tube power amp, right?  Can't do that at 12V.

"Jim"  wrote in message 
news:6L-dndjrRqOhZUDXnZ2dnUVZ_qOdnZ2d@posted.isomediainc...
> christofire wrote:
>> "Tony Done"  wrote in message 
>> news:HYbDm.48819$ze1.46738@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>> - snip -
>>
>
> Have you used starved plate effects?
>
> They tend to be picky on tubes.  A tube that sounds great in an amp may 
> sound fizzy in a low voltage situation.  I went through tens of tubes 
> before I found one I really liked.


I've already stated that I have a Vox Tonelab (SE), and that this uses HT of 
less than 15 V.  Also I've already stated that I prefer the sound of a Pod! 
I wouldn't say the sounds produced by the Tonelab are particularly noisy or 
'fizzy'.

Also I have built preamps using one or more ECC83s with 200 V HT and with 12 
V HT.  In each case I provided bypass switching and in my opinion, 
subjectively, the presence of a valve in the signal chain adds something 
beneficial at either HT, and it certainly isn't noise.  I expect it's some 
kind of colouration, probably in the form of harmonic distortion, and I have 
tried to mimic the effect in DSP.  The tanh function does quite a good job 
but it would be wrong to claim that it provides 'valve sound' - just a 
pleasant form of colouration at low (relative) levels and gutsy distortion 
at high (rel) levels.

Chris

christofire wrote:
> "Jim"  wrote in message 
> news:6L-dndjrRqOhZUDXnZ2dnUVZ_qOdnZ2d@posted.isomediainc...
>> christofire wrote:
>>> "Tony Done"  wrote in message 
>>> news:HYbDm.48819$ze1.46738@news-server.bigpond.net.au...
>>> - snip -
>>>
>> Have you used starved plate effects?
>>
>> They tend to be picky on tubes.  A tube that sounds great in an amp may 
>> sound fizzy in a low voltage situation.  I went through tens of tubes 
>> before I found one I really liked.
> 
> 
> I've already stated that I have a Vox Tonelab (SE), and that this uses HT of 
> less than 15 V.  Also I've already stated that I prefer the sound of a Pod! 
> I wouldn't say the sounds produced by the Tonelab are particularly noisy or 
> 'fizzy'.

Vox does use that tube differently than the Tube Driver that I have. 
I've looked at the schematic in the past, not recently.  I believe that 
they load the tube differently, calling it a "virtual output 
transformer" with some sort of feedback.

> 
> Also I have built preamps using one or more ECC83s with 200 V HT and with 12 
> V HT.  In each case I provided bypass switching and in my opinion, 
> subjectively, the presence of a valve in the signal chain adds something 
> beneficial at either HT, and it certainly isn't noise.  I expect it's some 
> kind of colouration, probably in the form of harmonic distortion, and I have 
> tried to mimic the effect in DSP.  The tanh function does quite a good job 
> but it would be wrong to claim that it provides 'valve sound' - just a 
> pleasant form of colouration at low (relative) levels and gutsy distortion 
> at high (rel) levels.
> 
> Chris 

There's an awful lot of "hype" associated with gear.  Some of it is from 
the manufacturers, but a lot is perpetuated nonsense from users.

You sound like you know your stuff.

The bottom line is HOW IT SOUNDS.

That Chandler Tube Driver sounds GREAT now, but I'll tell you...  You 
can put certain tubes that sound great in a "real" tube circuit, and it 
looses something.  Doesn't sound like a natural saturation.  When I went 
through my "bucket o' tubes" for that unit, I didn't even own an 
oscilloscope.  So I didn't try to figure out what was going on.  I just 
went 'til I hit a tube I liked.  Set that tube aside and tried more. 
Went back to that tube.

I sometimes use the Tube Driver in front of my Super Reverb to get a bit 
more of an "overdrive" tone, with or without my TS9/808.

On Oct 18, 12:11 am, "Lu R"  wrote:
> http://www.voxamps.com/us/pedals/tonelable/
>
> This pedal seems to have it all.. anyone own one?

I find this to be one of the more natural organic sounding effects. I
like it a lot but they had a bigger version (without the LE) that was
a much better processor IMO, they just dropped it because it was
expensive to manufacture.