On Fri, 3 Jul 2009 03:49:45 -0700 (PDT), "Mr. Green"
 wrote:

>On 3 July, 02:14, anyth...@contractorcom.com wrote:
>
>snip
>>
>> Is I.IV.V art? Not sure....
>>
>> Pete
>
>Just stepping back to this question. I believe that there is
>definitely art in good music but, in your opinion, does the performer
>always need to be the artist? Can the performer, sometimes, be
>considered an instrument of the composer and therefore more a
>technician.
>
>Green

In a word, no.

I hope this makes sense - spent last night at a wedding reception, and
jolly good it was too..

There are so many points of reference, from Stevie Ray Vaughan's
version of 'Little Wing' which takes a very simple song and blows it
off the planet to Hendrix's original, which is a simple statement of
affection. I prefer the original, but OTOH Vaughan's takes the riff
and explores it.

You can take the same approach to almost any music - the performer
casts his shadow over the writer's original intention. This doesn't
happen just in classical music (there are about 10 written down
versions of the cadenza to the Beethoven violin conceto alone), but it
happens every time I get up on stage and play 'Johnny B Goode' - the
intro gets lip-service but usually gatecrashes it's way into the
Hendirix thingy and goes bonkers.

Which is, of course, what rock & roll is all about..:-)

Interpretation.

Pete

Mr. Green wrote:
> On 4 July, 10:21, anyth...@contractorcom.com wrote:
>> On Fri, 3 Jul 2009 03:49:45 -0700 (PDT), "Mr. Green"
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  wrote:
>>> On 3 July, 02:14, anyth...@contractorcom.com wrote:
>>> snip
>>>> Is I.IV.V art? Not sure....
>>>> Pete
>>> Just stepping back to this question. I believe that there is
>>> definitely art in good music but, in your opinion, does the performer
>>> always need to be the artist? Can the performer, sometimes, be
>>> considered an instrument of the composer and therefore more a
>>> technician.
>>> Green
>> In a word, no.
>>
>> I hope this makes sense - spent last night at a wedding reception, and
>> jolly good it was too..
>>
>> There are so many points of reference, from Stevie Ray Vaughan's
>> version of 'Little Wing' which takes a very simple song and blows it
>> off the planet to Hendrix's original, which is a simple statement of
>> affection. I prefer the original, but OTOH Vaughan's takes the riff
>> and explores it.
>>
>> You can take the same approach to almost any music - the performer
>> casts his shadow over the writer's original intention. This doesn't
>> happen just in classical music (there are about 10 written down
>> versions of the cadenza to the Beethoven violin conceto alone), but it
>> happens every time I get up on stage and play 'Johnny B Goode' - the
>> intro gets lip-service but usually gatecrashes it's way into the
>> Hendirix thingy and goes bonkers.
>>
>> Which is, of course, what rock & roll is all about..:-)
>>
>> Interpretation.
>>
>> Pete- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
> 
> Yep that's certainly rock'n'roll the way I like it.
> 
> I sometimes wonder about session guys and backing orchestras. He's the
> full score, this is how I want it played... IMO there may come a point
> at which some musicians are just doing a job and, the degree of art
> they bring to that job is no more than that applied by any good
> craftsman.
> 
> I guess good musicians always apply a certain amount of art when
> playing. The thing we don't always recognise is that art can be found
> in the way many craftsmen carry out their work.
> 
> Green

Ah... a fellow Fred Dibnah fan...

On Mon, 6 Jul 2009 00:47:10 -0700 (PDT), "Mr. Green"
 wrote:

>On 4 July, 10:21, anyth...@contractorcom.com wrote:
>> On Fri, 3 Jul 2009 03:49:45 -0700 (PDT), "Mr. Green"
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>  wrote:
>> >On 3 July, 02:14, anyth...@contractorcom.com wrote:
>>
>> >snip
>>
>> >> Is I.IV.V art? Not sure....
>>
>> >> Pete
>>
>> >Just stepping back to this question. I believe that there is
>> >definitely art in good music but, in your opinion, does the performer
>> >always need to be the artist? Can the performer, sometimes, be
>> >considered an instrument of the composer and therefore more a
>> >technician.
>>
>> >Green
>>
>> In a word, no.
>>
>> I hope this makes sense - spent last night at a wedding reception, and
>> jolly good it was too..
>>
>> There are so many points of reference, from Stevie Ray Vaughan's
>> version of 'Little Wing' which takes a very simple song and blows it
>> off the planet to Hendrix's original, which is a simple statement of
>> affection. I prefer the original, but OTOH Vaughan's takes the riff
>> and explores it.
>>
>> You can take the same approach to almost any music - the performer
>> casts his shadow over the writer's original intention. This doesn't
>> happen just in classical music (there are about 10 written down
>> versions of the cadenza to the Beethoven violin conceto alone), but it
>> happens every time I get up on stage and play 'Johnny B Goode' - the
>> intro gets lip-service but usually gatecrashes it's way into the
>> Hendirix thingy and goes bonkers.
>>
>> Which is, of course, what rock & roll is all about..:-)
>>
>> Interpretation.
>>
>> Pete- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
>Yep that's certainly rock'n'roll the way I like it.
>
>I sometimes wonder about session guys and backing orchestras. He's the
>full score, this is how I want it played... IMO there may come a point
>at which some musicians are just doing a job and, the degree of art
>they bring to that job is no more than that applied by any good
>craftsman.
>
>I guess good musicians always apply a certain amount of art when
>playing. The thing we don't always recognise is that art can be found
>in the way many craftsmen carry out their work.
>
>Green

I can answer your question about session guys and backing orchestras.
Basically, they tinker with everything, particularly classical
conductors and players. Beethoven's 'Fidelio' went something like 30
years before anyone performed the full score (even Beethoven was
hacking around with it right up to the first performance).

I remember having a conversation with Big Jim Sullivan (now there's
name dropping for you..:-) a couple of years ago about his session
work and he said sometimes you get the score and it's all over the
place, and sometimes you get a producer who knows exactly what he
wants. The latter is preferable, obviously, if you're getting paid by
the hour.

When I was playing first violin in my school orchestra the girl who
shared the front desk with me (who's name I have embarrassingly
forgotten - she was a hell of a player) and I would frequently have a
conversation about how to hack our way through an unfamiliar piece and
work out a consensus about what the conductor really needed and what
he wanted (two different things - you've got one eye on the audience).
Likewise in playing with the rock & roll band, we used to drop entire
choruses simply because there wasn't the time or inclination to get
the work done to perfect the song.

We did Dylan's 'Just Like a Woman' just about every week for seven
years and never played the middle eight (singer too lazy to learn it).
Nobody noticed.

Good musicians play as well as they can, and certainly session players
do what they are asked for, but in any complex session there are
always compromises as well as moments of inspiration which deviate
from the written music. One could argue with some conviction that in
the past musicians were treated merely as artisans who were there to
do a job, just like the cooper or the stablehand. The level of respect
orchestral players get now is far greater than it was in, say, the
18th century, but the demands for better playing have also risen over
the same period. I've known many talented players who most of us on
this NG would find mind-bogglingly talented compared to ourselves, and
yet they sometimes feel when they get up in the morning it's just
another day in at the office - "Today it's Tom Jones at 10.00 then a
bit of lunch and with a bit of luck the traffic won't be too bad and I
can get the Monophonics set done in time for dinner...."

Anyway, there is creative input from the players both on the stage and
in the studio, and I'm rambling again - choice between farting around
on the NG or doing the washing up....:-)

Pete

"Mr. Green"  wrote in message 
news:705ff2b8-af9c-4b79-9e5b-f12c08dd9480@s31g2000yqs.googlegroups.com...
> I sometimes wonder about session guys and backing orchestras. He's the
> full score, this is how I want it played... IMO there may come a point
> at which some musicians are just doing a job and, the degree of art
> they bring to that job is no more than that applied by any good
> craftsman.
>
> I guess good musicians always apply a certain amount of art when
> playing. The thing we don't always recognise is that art can be found
> in the way many craftsmen carry out their work.
>
> Green

It's too easy to let your own personal prejudice enter into this type of 
discussion.

A good musician is about art, craft, entertainment and probably many other 
things.

My personal leaning is towards entertainment and then craft but everyone has 
their own priorities.

It's all too easy to be elitist about this stuff and cast aspersions on 
anyone who isn't original / artistic. It's also (as Adrian has pointed out) 
all too easy to cast aspersions on someone who you feel doesn't have enough 
craft in their performance and yet could have a high artist merit.

Let's try and distinguish between "my sort of musician" and "a good 
musician"!

Cheers,
Steve W

"Mr. Green"  wrote in message 
news:b16d2640-f957-427a-bc31-97b157ee3606@x3g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
> On 6 July, 12:19, "FatBoySlimFast"
>  wrote:
>> "Mr. Green"  wrote in message
>>
>> news:705ff2b8-af9c-4b79-9e5b-f12c08dd9480@s31g2000yqs.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> > I sometimes wonder about session guys and backing orchestras. He's the
>> > full score, this is how I want it played... IMO there may come a point
>> > at which some musicians are just doing a job and, the degree of art
>> > they bring to that job is no more than that applied by any good
>> > craftsman.
>>
>> > I guess good musicians always apply a certain amount of art when
>> > playing. The thing we don't always recognise is that art can be found
>> > in the way many craftsmen carry out their work.
>>
>> > Green
>>
>> It's too easy to let your own personal prejudice enter into this type of
>> discussion.
>>
>> A good musician is about art, craft, entertainment and probably many 
>> other
>> things.
>>
>> My personal leaning is towards entertainment and then craft but everyone 
>> has
>> their own priorities.
>>
>> It's all too easy to be elitist about this stuff and cast aspersions on
>> anyone who isn't original / artistic. It's also (as Adrian has pointed 
>> out)
>> all too easy to cast aspersions on someone who you feel doesn't have 
>> enough
>> craft in their performance and yet could have a high artist merit.
>>
>> Let's try and distinguish between "my sort of musician" and "a good
>> musician"!
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Steve W
>
> No prejudice or aspersions here. May be I have as much, or even more,
> respect for the craft side of musicianship.
> IMO too many people put art on a pedastal.
>
> Green


Was it keef who said, when asked "what is art" said that he considered it to 
be short for Arthur, and only that?

-- 
http://www.facebook.com/tomscotland

On Mon, 6 Jul 2009 07:12:59 -0700 (PDT), "Mr. Green"
 wrote:

>On 6 July, 12:19, "FatBoySlimFast"
> wrote:
>> "Mr. Green"  wrote in message
>>
>> news:705ff2b8-af9c-4b79-9e5b-f12c08dd9480@s31g2000yqs.googlegroups.com...
>>
>> > I sometimes wonder about session guys and backing orchestras. He's the
>> > full score, this is how I want it played... IMO there may come a point
>> > at which some musicians are just doing a job and, the degree of art
>> > they bring to that job is no more than that applied by any good
>> > craftsman.
>>
>> > I guess good musicians always apply a certain amount of art when
>> > playing. The thing we don't always recognise is that art can be found
>> > in the way many craftsmen carry out their work.
>>
>> > Green
>>
>> It's too easy to let your own personal prejudice enter into this type of
>> discussion.
>>
>> A good musician is about art, craft, entertainment and probably many other
>> things.
>>
>> My personal leaning is towards entertainment and then craft but everyone has
>> their own priorities.
>>
>> It's all too easy to be elitist about this stuff and cast aspersions on
>> anyone who isn't original / artistic. It's also (as Adrian has pointed out)
>> all too easy to cast aspersions on someone who you feel doesn't have enough
>> craft in their performance and yet could have a high artist merit.
>>
>> Let's try and distinguish between "my sort of musician" and "a good
>> musician"!
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Steve W
>
>No prejudice or aspersions here. May be I have as much, or even more,
>respect for the craft side of musicianship.
>IMO too many people put art on a pedastal.
>
>Green

Unless you happen to be sited just south of Nelson's Column in
Trafalgar Square..:-)

Pete

"Mr. Green"  wrote in message 
news:b16d2640-f957-427a-bc31-97b157ee3606@x3g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
> IMO too many people put art on a pedastal.

I'll second that emotion.

Steve W