Here's one for you to ponder:

If you are forced to play with action higher than you would like because 
you have strings that buzz when you fret them, consider *lowering* your 
nut slots and raising your bridge saddles. Here's a drawing that 
illustrates the logic behind this:

www.brickgarage.com/images/action.JPG

This assumes level frets and minimal relief.  I also believe too much 
relief causes buzzing.  But that's another drawing.

If you have adjustable saddles, you can experiment with this approach by 
putting a capo over the first fret with a few pieces of paper between 
the fret and the strings.

Peace

DV

Dave Van wrote:
> Here's one for you to ponder:
> 
> If you are forced to play with action higher than you would like because 
> you have strings that buzz when you fret them, consider *lowering* your 
> nut slots and raising your bridge saddles. Here's a drawing that 
> illustrates the logic behind this:
> 
> www.brickgarage.com/images/action.JPG
> 
> This assumes level frets and minimal relief.  I also believe too much 
> relief causes buzzing.  But that's another drawing.
> 
> If you have adjustable saddles, you can experiment with this approach by 
> putting a capo over the first fret with a few pieces of paper between 
> the fret and the strings.
> 
> Peace
> 
> DV


Forgot to mention.  The drawing is not to scale but is done so as to 
illustrate the point.  In a game where a few thousandths of an inch 
matter, Making a JPEG of a drawing to scale wouldn't do much good.

Cheers

DV

> I also believe too much 
> relief causes buzzing.

I believe in Father Christmas ;)

I don't believe the too much relief causes buzzing though.

> If you have adjustable saddles, you can experiment with this approach by 
> putting a capo over the first fret with a few pieces of paper between 
> the fret and the strings.

That would have the same effect as *raising* the nut slots.

I think you're barking up the wrong tree here. Wrong forest actually ...

Al.

On Jun 24, 2:59 pm, Al  wrote:
> > I also believe too much
> > relief causes buzzing.
>
> I believe in Father Christmas ;)
>
> I don't believe the too much relief causes buzzing though.

It's all a matter of degree.  I cured an acoustic guitar of bad
buzzing the other day by taking out the massive amount of relief that
was in the neck.  It's not at all far fetched if you just picture what
a truss rod actually influences and what it does not.  It wasn't a
mystery. I know exactly why it was buzzing and exactly why less relief
cured it.

>
> > If you have adjustable saddles, you can experiment with this approach by
> > putting a capo over the first fret with a few pieces of paper between
> > the fret and the strings.
>
> That would have the same effect as *raising* the nut slots.

No.  That's not what I was suggesting. I figured people had the where-
with-all to put 2 and 2 together. What I was suggesting as a test of
the principal is as follows: Use the shim to simulate raising the nut
slots, adjust saddles to set 12th fret action to X. Measure the gap
when fretting at the 8th fret.  Remove the shim. Again adjust the
saddles to set the 12th fret action to X again. Measure the gap when
fretting at the 8th fret. Compare measurements.  The lower version of
the nut will have more clearance.

>
> I think you're barking up the wrong tree here. Wrong forest actually ...

I'm not barking up anything. ;-)

DV

Al wrote:
>> I also believe too much 
>> relief causes buzzing.
> 
> I believe in Father Christmas ;)
> 
> I don't believe the too much relief causes buzzing though.

Not on its own it doesn't, but adjusting for a low action will produce 
buzing on the higher frets with a neck with too much relief.

With too little, the rattles occur from about fret 3 onward.

On Jun 24, 5:03 pm, JNugent  wrote:
> Al wrote:
> >> I also believe too much
> >> relief causes buzzing.
>
> > I believe in Father Christmas ;)
>
> > I don't believe the too much relief causes buzzing though.
>
> Not on its own it doesn't, but adjusting for a low action will produce
> buzing on the higher frets with a neck with too much relief.
>
> With too little, the rattles occur from about fret 3 onward.



Right.  Not on it's own. Sorry.  Should have specified that.

In the case of my co-worker's acoustic (a Fender something or other),
he had a little string rattle so he started adding relief until it was
putting an S curve in the neck.  It was more than rattle after that.
The strings were practically muted! After I brought it back to a more
reasonable curve, there was still a slight rattle on the lower strings
but it was playable.  He said it was better than when he started
messing with it so he was grateful.

Peace

DV

"Dave Van"  wrote in message 
news:2c4f3813-2522-4b59-a542-2debdcc55caf@c58g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
> On Jun 24, 5:03 pm, JNugent  wrote:
>> Al wrote:
>> >> I also believe too much
>> >> relief causes buzzing.
>>
>> > I believe in Father Christmas ;)
>>
>> > I don't believe the too much relief causes buzzing though.
>>
>> Not on its own it doesn't, but adjusting for a low action will produce
>> buzing on the higher frets with a neck with too much relief.
>>
>> With too little, the rattles occur from about fret 3 onward.
>
>
>
> Right.  Not on it's own. Sorry.  Should have specified that.
>
> In the case of my co-worker's acoustic (a Fender something or other),
> he had a little string rattle so he started adding relief until it was
> putting an S curve in the neck.  It was more than rattle after that.
> The strings were practically muted! After I brought it back to a more
> reasonable curve, there was still a slight rattle on the lower strings
> but it was playable.  He said it was better than when he started
> messing with it so he was grateful.
>
> Peace
>
> DV

So it's about neck curvature (and how level the frets are), rather than 
"relief".
But isn't it obvious?

Jose
-- 
Musha ring dum a doo dum a dah - www.mcnach.com
Current fave guitar: Fender 'Sambora' Stratocaster
Current fave bass: Warwick Corvette $$

Fender Stratocaster - part coffee table, part spaceship.

Jose de las Heras wrote:
> "Dave Van"  wrote in message 
> news:2c4f3813-2522-4b59-a542-2debdcc55caf@c58g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>> On Jun 24, 5:03 pm, JNugent  wrote:
>>> Al wrote:
>>>>> I also believe too much
>>>>> relief causes buzzing.
>>>> I believe in Father Christmas ;)
>>>> I don't believe the too much relief causes buzzing though.
>>> Not on its own it doesn't, but adjusting for a low action will produce
>>> buzing on the higher frets with a neck with too much relief.
>>>
>>> With too little, the rattles occur from about fret 3 onward.
>>
>>
>> Right.  Not on it's own. Sorry.  Should have specified that.
>>
>> In the case of my co-worker's acoustic (a Fender something or other),
>> he had a little string rattle so he started adding relief until it was
>> putting an S curve in the neck.  It was more than rattle after that.
>> The strings were practically muted! After I brought it back to a more
>> reasonable curve, there was still a slight rattle on the lower strings
>> but it was playable.  He said it was better than when he started
>> messing with it so he was grateful.
>>
>> Peace
>>
>> DV
> 
> So it's about neck curvature (and how level the frets are), rather than 
> "relief".
> But isn't it obvious?
> 
> Jose


Well, I suppose it's possible to generate relief without introducing 
neck curvature but I really don't see a way to separate the two in a 
practical manner.

How do you measure and adjust curvature and relief separately?

DV

Al wrote:
>> I also believe too much 
>> relief causes buzzing.
> 
> I believe in Father Christmas ;)


I look to the skies with excited eyes...

>> I believe in Father Christmas ;)
> I look to the skies with excited eyes...

'Til I woke with a yawn in the first light of dawn and I saw him and 
through his disguise

Wasn't that just the best ever Christmas single? Nice easy to play 12-
string intro, "Troika", anti-consumerism message, small boys in the park, 
snowmen for goalposts. Marvellous ... Isn't it?

Al.

"Dave Van"  wrote in message 
news:AYh8k.5595$L_.2112@flpi150.ffdc.sbc.com...

> Well, I suppose it's possible to generate relief without introducing neck 
> curvature but I really don't see a way to separate the two in a practical 
> manner.
>
> How do you measure and adjust curvature and relief separately?

http://littleguitarworks.com/instruments/torzalguitar.php ?

icarusi
--

remove 00 to reply

icarusi wrote:
> "Dave Van"  wrote in message 
> news:AYh8k.5595$L_.2112@flpi150.ffdc.sbc.com...
> 
>> Well, I suppose it's possible to generate relief without introducing neck 
>> curvature but I really don't see a way to separate the two in a practical 
>> manner.
>>
>> How do you measure and adjust curvature and relief separately?
> 
> http://littleguitarworks.com/instruments/torzalguitar.php ?
> 
> icarusi
> --
> 
> remove 00 to reply 
> 
> 


Twist is not curvature

"Dave Van"  wrote in message news:%%D8k.11259

> Twist is not curvature

Are you sure?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curve

The fingerboard/body-face is technically some sort of helix. The back of the 
neck looks like it's 'straight' with the fingerboard helix cut into the top 
surface. The frets are radiused too. Lots of curves.

icarusi
--

remove 00 to reply

On Jun 26, 12:08 pm, "icarusi"  wrote:
> "Dave Van"  wrote in message news:%%D8k.11259
> > Twist is not curvature
>
> Are you sure?

Yes, I'm sure.


>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Curve
>
> The fingerboard/body-face is technically some sort of helix. The back of the
> neck looks like it's 'straight' with the fingerboard helix cut into the top
> surface. The frets are radiused too. Lots of curves.
>
> icarusi
> --
>
> remove 00 to reply


In this group, I think it's safe to assume that we're talking about
the common terms used when discussing characteristics of guitar
setup.  It's professional and amateur jargon.  While twist requires
curvature, curve and twist are not the same thing when referring to
the characteristics of a guitar neck.

DV

I find it difficult to really grasp & visualize the shape made by the Truss 
Rod adjustments.

Is it a curve between the nut & where ever the neck thickens to connect to 
the body
with the neck above that unaffected by truss rod adjustments. ? That is a 
dip centered
around 5 th fret ?

Or a steady upward (or downward) curve from the higher fret end around the 
heel
up to the nut ?
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")  mouse

On Jun 26, 7:40 pm, "Trimble Bracegirdle"  wrote:
> I find it difficult to really grasp & visualize the shape made by the Truss
> Rod adjustments.
>
> Is it a curve between the nut & where ever the neck thickens to connect to
> the body
> with the neck above that unaffected by truss rod adjustments. ? That is a
> dip centered
> around 5 th fret ?
>
> Or a steady upward (or downward) curve from the higher fret end around the
> heel
> up to the nut ?
> (\__/)
> (='.'=)
> (")_(")  mouse


Great observations.

In a perfect model, the latter that you describe is closest to what
would be imparted by the tightening of the truss rod. But, wood being
an imperfect, natural, non-engineered material, the former can tend to
occur under extreme stresses of an over tightened truss rod.  Most
often the highest frets, where the neck overlaps the body, are not
influenced by the truss rod because they are glued or bolted tightly
to the body. this is OK as long as any forward curvature is within
reasonable range.  Over tightening the truss rod can, however, in some
cases, cause the 'dip' that you describe.  This is the case where, all
other things being equally adjusted, too much curvature or 'relief'
can actually cause the symptom that that adjustment is designed to
alleviate.

Peace

DV

Thanks
(\__/)
(='.'=)
(")_(")  mouse