Funny how today's horny-handed sons of toil/welfare iayabouts are far
less likely to be into folk music than computer programmers.

Who's to blame?

Gill.Smith.999@googlemail.com said:
> Funny how today's horny-handed sons of toil/welfare iayabouts are far
> less likely to be into folk music than computer programmers.
>
> Who's to blame?

the Horses.



What's wrong with being into computer programmers, anyway ?



Yet Another Tune Title :- the Horse under the Bridge.

-- 
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem

My email address is at http://www.qualmograph.org.uk/contact.html

Gill.Smith.999@googlemail.com wrote:
> Funny how today's horny-handed sons of toil/welfare iayabouts are far
> less likely to be into folk music than computer programmers.
> 
> Who's to blame?

The rot set in when they started putting radios into tractor cabs
Hence this extract from a modern farming ditty.....

"When daybreak comes, my fields be ploughed
To the sound of Wogan and Girls Aloud"


TF

Tony F wrote:
>Gill.Smith.999@googlemail.com wrote:
>> Funny how today's horny-handed sons of toil/welfare iayabouts are far
>> less likely to be into folk music than computer programmers.
>>  Who's to blame?
>
>The rot set in when they started putting radios into tractor cabs
>Hence this extract from a modern farming ditty.....
>
>"When daybreak comes, my fields be ploughed
>To the sound of Wogan and Girls Aloud"
>
A few years ago, Radio 4's 'On Your Farm' programme did a special on 
sound systems for tractors. With contract drivers spending long, long 
hours in the cab, it's a booming industry in every sense.

And their all-time favourite track? Yes, you guessed it: 'Bat Out Of 
Hell'.


-- 
Ian White

In message <4862d731$0$78078$bed64819@news.gradwell.net>, Richard 
Robinson  writes
>Gill.Smith.999@googlemail.com said:
>> Funny how today's horny-handed sons of toil/welfare iayabouts are far
>> less likely to be into folk music than computer programmers.

Possibly 'twas ever thus. Thomas Hardy played and collected tunes as 
well his  architecture, poetry and prose. The Coppers were on the upper 
rungs of estate workers - farm bailiffs rather than at the bottom of the 
heap.


One of the young guys in the latest local Morris side has a degree in 
Music and Maths or Music and Programming - probably the former - creates 
music for video game for a living, plays a guitar and sings. Seems a 
very sensible evolution for a musician.

....

>What's wrong with being into computer programmers, anyway ?
>

Or even being computer programmers? Or into programming?

Anyway, what did computer programmers' ancestors do by way of  music?



-- 
Peter Thomas

On 26 Jun, 11:32, Peter Thomas
<peterdoub...@doubledemon.co.uk.invalid> wrote:
> In message <4862d731$0$78078$bed64...@news.gradwell.net>, Richard
> Robinson  writes
>
> >Gill.Smith....@googlemail.com said:
> >> Funny how today's horny-handed sons of toil/welfare iayabouts are far
> >> less likely to be into folk music than computer programmers.
>
> Possibly 'twas ever thus. Thomas Hardy played and collected tunes as
> well his  architecture, poetry and prose. The Coppers were on the upper
> rungs of estate workers - farm bailiffs rather than at the bottom of the
> heap.
>
> One of the young guys in the latest local Morris side has a degree in
> Music and Maths or Music and Programming - probably the former - creates
> music for video game for a living, plays a guitar and sings. Seems a
> very sensible evolution for a musician.
>
> ....
>
> >What's wrong with being into computer programmers, anyway ?
>
> Or even being computer programmers? Or into programming?
>
> Anyway, what did computer programmers' ancestors do by way of  music?
>
> --
> Peter Thomas


Reminds me of a conversation (!) with Gary Aspey many moons ago.  The
band I was in was doing a spot at a club in Birmingham where Gary &
Vera were the main guests.  Gary felt inclined to offer us some
advice.  He said we didn't sound authentic and that we could only do
so if we chose material that we had a direct connection to, i.e.
through personal experience, employment or close family.  I was left
wondering what folk music could be authentically sung by a computer
programming son of a Methodist minister (i.e. me).  Never a heavy
drinker and never called up (or "pressed") and using very 1970-s
methods of courting, I wasn't sure what was left.  Mind you, going by
the same directive, who would ever have the right "personal
experience" to sing most of those other-worldly Childe ballads?

The highest representation of any profession in our club seems to be
teacher.

Peter Thomas wrote:
> In message <4862d731$0$78078$bed64819@news.gradwell.net>, Richard 
> Robinson  writes
>> Gill.Smith.999@googlemail.com said:
>>> Funny how today's horny-handed sons of toil/welfare iayabouts are far
>>> less likely to be into folk music than computer programmers.
> 
> Possibly 'twas ever thus. Thomas Hardy played and collected tunes as 
> well his  architecture, poetry and prose. The Coppers were on the upper 
> rungs of estate workers - farm bailiffs rather than at the bottom of the 
> heap.
> 
> 
> One of the young guys in the latest local Morris side has a degree in 
> Music and Maths or Music and Programming - probably the former - creates 
> music for video game for a living, plays a guitar and sings. Seems a 
> very sensible evolution for a musician.
> 
> ....
> 
>> What's wrong with being into computer programmers, anyway ?
>>
> 
> Or even being computer programmers? Or into programming?
> 
> Anyway, what did computer programmers' ancestors do by way of  music?
> 
> 
> 

All of which explains why I am currently writing more up-to-date songs 
of common experience, in the hope of improving the relevance of 
folk-song to people's everyday lives.

I've started with a land-shanty, and a song about the poor souls caught 
in a stock-market crash.  From there - who knows?

TF

In article
,
 wrote:

> Funny how today's horny-handed sons of toil/welfare iayabouts are far
> less likely to be into folk music than computer programmers.
> 
> Who's to blame?

The British education system.  Once upon a time it was almost
impossible to escape from the working class. however bright and
motivated you were.  Now you can go to university and get a degree the
working class (such as it is) has been stripped of its more intelligent
members.  Music is an intellectual activity, so many of the potentially
creative musicians have gone to be computer programmers or whatever.

Phil Taylor

In message <LfQ8k.143954$1B6.46765@newsfe21.ams2>, Tony F 
 writes
>and a song about the poor souls caught in a stock-market crash.

Huh? Thats self inflicted.

Is you song observant of their predicament, sympathetic to their 
predicament or scathing of it?

Stephen
-- 
Stephen Kellett
Object Media Limited    http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/software.html
Computer Consultancy, Software Development
Windows C++, Java, Assembler, Performance Analysis, Troubleshooting
Reg Office: 24 Windmill Walk, Sutton, Ely, Cambs CB6 2NH.

In message , Ian White 
 writes
>And their all-time favourite track? Yes, you guessed it: 'Bat Out Of 
>Hell'.

Anyone see Meat Loaf on "The F Word" this week?
Wow, has he changed appearance!

Yes, I can see why the album is successful.
But really, Meat Loaf is seriously over-rated.

Stephen
-- 
Stephen Kellett
Object Media Limited    http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/software.html
Computer Consultancy, Software Development
Windows C++, Java, Assembler, Performance Analysis, Troubleshooting
Reg Office: 24 Windmill Walk, Sutton, Ely, Cambs CB6 2NH.

In message <260620081828303854%nothere@all.invalid>, Phil Taylor 
<nothere@all.invalid> writes
>motivated you were.  Now you can go to university and get a degree the
>working class (such as it is) has been stripped of its more intelligent
>members.

Is that a complaint or an observation. If a complaint, why?

I don't understand why you use the word stripped. Do you think that 
successful people from a working class background won't keep in touch 
with their roots just because they have better options that those less 
succesful/motivated/able than themselves? I doubt that very much.

>Music is an intellectual activity, so many of the potentially
>creative musicians have gone to be computer programmers or whatever.

Good for them, keep their brains active. But why is that a surprise? 
Music and Maths have long been linked.

People that find computation an interesting logical and/or mathematical 
challenge often find the same in music, whether they simple listen to 
James Brown, Ministry of Sound or Nine Inch Nails, it doesn't really 
surprise me (although it constantly surprises me that anyone intelligent 
likes Duff Duff Duff music).

I dont' understand why you think a career in computing means an end to 
musical interest (or am I misinterpreting what you've written?). I've 
worked with stellar software engineers that spend their day listening to 
thrash metal while coding and then get their £2000 trombone out in the 
evening for music practice. Yes, the disconnnect between thrash metal 
and brass trombone is quite a bit, but thats his thing. At the same time 
he found my interest in ambient/goth/industrial/heavy rock/bagpipe/folk 
rather odd. It takes all sorts.

One thing that shines through the musicians I meet (and respect for 
musicianship) is intelligence (in educational terms), or (if they are 
not academic) some raw understanding that can't be explained in words. 
Both are different and should be respected for what they have (*). There 
is something there that the non-musicians don't "get" for want of a 
better word.

Stephen
(*) I'm a good swimmer. Seriously, I am. I always have been. Its part of 
who I am, not what I can do. Nothing can change that. Some people just 
swim well, I'm one of them. Lucky me. Most people are not. Fortunately 
for me, the same applies for certain specialised parts of computing. 
Musically, some people like what I do, but I'm not on the top pedestal 
for music and there isn't much I can do about that. Same applies to 
everyone else, in different degrees for different abilities. Thats life. 
Live with it.
-- 
Stephen Kellett
Object Media Limited    http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/software.html
Computer Consultancy, Software Development
Windows C++, Java, Assembler, Performance Analysis, Troubleshooting
Reg Office: 24 Windmill Walk, Sutton, Ely, Cambs CB6 2NH.

In article , Stephen Kellett
 wrote:

> In message <260620081828303854%nothere@all.invalid>, Phil Taylor 
> <nothere@all.invalid> writes
> >motivated you were.  Now you can go to university and get a degree the
> >working class (such as it is) has been stripped of its more intelligent
> >members.
> 
> Is that a complaint or an observation. If a complaint, why?

It's an observation tinged with sadness:-)

> 
> I don't understand why you use the word stripped. Do you think that 
> successful people from a working class background won't keep in touch 
> with their roots just because they have better options that those less 
> succesful/motivated/able than themselves? I doubt that very much.

Apart from my brother, who went through the same process, I am no
longer in touch with anyone I knew as a child.  That would not have
happened if we (like our father) had been apprenticed to a joiner,
rather than becoming a research scientist and a historian respectively.

> 
> >Music is an intellectual activity, so many of the potentially
> >creative musicians have gone to be computer programmers or whatever.
> 
> Good for them, keep their brains active. But why is that a surprise? 
> Music and Maths have long been linked.

It's no surprise.

> 
> People that find computation an interesting logical and/or mathematical 
> challenge often find the same in music, whether they simple listen to 
> James Brown, Ministry of Sound or Nine Inch Nails, it doesn't really 
> surprise me (although it constantly surprises me that anyone intelligent 
> likes Duff Duff Duff music).
> 
> I dont' understand why you think a career in computing means an end to 
> musical interest (or am I misinterpreting what you've written?). I've 
> worked with stellar software engineers that spend their day listening to 
> thrash metal while coding and then get their £2000 trombone out in the 
> evening for music practice. Yes, the disconnnect between thrash metal 
> and brass trombone is quite a bit, but thats his thing. At the same time 
> he found my interest in ambient/goth/industrial/heavy rock/bagpipe/folk 
> rather odd. It takes all sorts.

Of course I don't think that a career in computing (or any other
academic subject) means an end to musical interest.  It's simply that
it takes you away from your working class background.  The result is a
decline in working class culture as its more able members move away
from their roots.

> 
> One thing that shines through the musicians I meet (and respect for 
> musicianship) is intelligence (in educational terms), or (if they are 
> not academic) some raw understanding that can't be explained in words. 
> Both are different and should be respected for what they have (*). There 
> is something there that the non-musicians don't "get" for want of a 
> better word.

Agreed.

Phil Taylor

In message <270620080944135686%nothere@all.invalid>, Phil Taylor 
<nothere@all.invalid> writes
>Apart from my brother, who went through the same process, I am no
>longer in touch with anyone I knew as a child.

Neither am I, apart from one particular friend. Can't say I'm upset 
about it. I guess this depends very much on how happy you were at 
school.

Occasionally I go back to see him and we go to a local pub where the 
others still hang out and sadly their behaviour and childish humour 
hasn't changed, despite the fact we are now 25 years older. I'm not 
missing a thing not having their company. If anything, I think I'm 
benefiting.

The few people I wouldn't mind seeing no longer live there. Perhaps they 
reached the same conclusion?

I've met more wonderful people because of music and dance than through 
any other activity I've ever participated in. I'm much more interested 
in them than those I happened to go to school with.

Given that you miss some people have you tried the various friends 
united and related web sites. You can find many people easily using 
Google.

I've had one chap from school find me and strangely, spookily, I've had 
computer game fans from the 1980s contact me for interviews about games 
I wrote. Stuff I did 20 years ago that I don't care about anymore. One 
guy even found a game I never sold, at a boot sale, spent ages 
recovering the image off the disk and then found me to ask me about the 
history behind the game. I'd forgotten about it! That is dedication. 
Mindblowing that people care so much about such an insignificant detail 
in home computing history. Strange being "famous" in a mini-community 
for something you don't care about. Its a really odd feeling.

I'm sure if you want to find them and they are online, you probably can.

Stephen
-- 
Stephen Kellett
Object Media Limited    http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/software.html
Computer Consultancy, Software Development
Windows C++, Java, Assembler, Performance Analysis, Troubleshooting
Reg Office: 24 Windmill Walk, Sutton, Ely, Cambs CB6 2NH.

The message <LfQ8k.143954$1B6.46765@newsfe21.ams2>
from Tony F  contains these words:

> All of which explains why I am currently writing more up-to-date songs 
> of common experience, in the hope of improving the relevance of 
> folk-song to people's everyday lives.

> I've started with a land-shanty, and a song about the poor souls caught 
> in a stock-market crash.  From there - who knows?

Pat Wilson wrote a Housework Shanty (the refrain, I think, was
"sweeping,,. cleaning") which is still to be heard around the place here
and there. Just thought I'd mention it.

-- 

                    Arthur Marshall
           Caller for Traditional Dances
              nb Lord Byron's Maggot
     www.users.zetnet.co.uk/barndancer
       www.myspace.com/arthurhimself

Arthur Marshall wrote:
> The message <LfQ8k.143954$1B6.46765@newsfe21.ams2>
> from Tony F  contains these words:
> 
>> All of which explains why I am currently writing more up-to-date songs 
>> of common experience, in the hope of improving the relevance of 
>> folk-song to people's everyday lives.
> 
>> I've started with a land-shanty, and a song about the poor souls caught 
>> in a stock-market crash.  From there - who knows?
> 
> Pat Wilson wrote a Housework Shanty (the refrain, I think, was
> "sweeping,,. cleaning") which is still to be heard around the place here
> and there. Just thought I'd mention it.
> 
I seem to remember there's also a Childbirth Shanty (refrain: "Bear 
down!") ...

On 26 Jun, 08:25, Ian White  wrote:

> A few years ago, Radio 4's 'On Your Farm' programme did a special on
> sound systems for tractors. With contract drivers spending long, long
> hours in the cab, it's a booming industry in every sense.
>
> And their all-time favourite track? Yes, you guessed it: 'Bat Out Of
> Hell'.

'Prat Out of Hell' as I'm won't to call him, not least because I like
most of the musical ideas underlying that song - and several others he
does - but they're obliterated by his producer (Todd Rungren?) who is
an absolute peasant in the studio.

On 27 Jun, 02:14, Stephen Kellett  wrote:

> Is that a complaint or an observation. If a complaint, why?
>
> I don't understand why you use the word stripped. Do you think that
> successful people from a working class background won't keep in touch
> with their roots just because they have better options that those less
> succesful/motivated/able than themselves? I doubt that very much.
>
> >Music is an intellectual activity, so many of the potentially
> >creative musicians have gone to be computer programmers or whatever.

Talking of computer programming and the intellectualization of
music. . .I've recently started listening to large amounts of Dance/
Acid House genre - and enjoying it - something I could never have
imagined.

And it has absolutely nothing to do with last-ditch attempts at being
trendy and everything to do with preparing tracks using the Cubase
program and wishing to compare techniques for getting a vibe.

> Talking of computer programming and the intellectualization of
> music. . .I've recently started listening to large amounts of
> Dance/Acid House genre - and enjoying it - something I could
> never have imagined.

The weird thing about it is that it's entirely reels but nobody
thinks to classify it that way.

==== j a c k  at  c a m p i n . m e . u k  ===  <http://www.campin.me.uk> ====
Jack Campin, 11 Third St, Newtongrange EH22 4PU, Scotland == mob 07800 739 557
CD-ROMs and free stuff:  Scottish music, food intolerance, and Mac logic fonts

On Thu, 26 Jun 2008 17:28:33 GMT, Phil Taylor <nothere@all.invalid>
wrote:

>Once upon a time it was almost
>impossible to escape from the working class. however bright and
>motivated you were.  Now you can go to university and get a degree the
>working class (such as it is) has been stripped of its more intelligent
>members.

So you're saying that a rigid class system is a good thing.

Dav Vandenbroucke
davanden at cox dot net

In message , Dav 
Vandenbroucke  writes
>On Thu, 26 Jun 2008 17:28:33 GMT, Phil Taylor <nothere@all.invalid>
>wrote:
>
>>Once upon a time it was almost
>>impossible to escape from the working class. however bright and
>>motivated you were.  Now you can go to university and get a degree the
>>working class (such as it is) has been stripped of its more intelligent
>>members.
>
>So you're saying that a rigid class system is a good thing.
>
The Social Mobility paradox.

When politicians advocate social mobility, the implication is that such 
mobility, to be desirable,  is upward. Rather forgets that mobility can 
be two-way, but let that pass. Apart from the cheerful absurdity of 
everyone being, eventually, above average in terms of wealth, 
intelligence and looks, there is also the harsh fact that those who can 
use education to rise socially mostly will and those who can't certainly 
won't. This has been going on since the 194? - probably 1944  - 
Education Act, and accounts for the frustration felt at apparent 
cessation of social mobility.

Think of it as evolution rather than right or wrong.


-- 
Peter Thomas

Peter Thomas wrote:
> In message , Dav 
> Vandenbroucke  writes
>> On Thu, 26 Jun 2008 17:28:33 GMT, Phil Taylor <nothere@all.invalid>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Once upon a time it was almost
>>> impossible to escape from the working class. however bright and
>>> motivated you were.  Now you can go to university and get a degree the
>>> working class (such as it is) has been stripped of its more intelligent
>>> members.
>>
>> So you're saying that a rigid class system is a good thing.
>>
> The Social Mobility paradox.
> 
> When politicians advocate social mobility, the implication is that such 
> mobility, to be desirable,  is upward. Rather forgets that mobility can 
> be two-way, but let that pass. Apart from the cheerful absurdity of 
> everyone being, eventually, above average in terms of wealth, 
> intelligence and looks, there is also the harsh fact that those who can 
> use education to rise socially mostly will and those who can't certainly 
> won't. This has been going on since the 194? - probably 1944  - 
> Education Act, and accounts for the frustration felt at apparent 
> cessation of social mobility.
> 
> Think of it as evolution rather than right or wrong.
> 
> 
You're saying what very few academics dare to say now, although Michael 
Young said it 50 years ago. If you create a meritocracy, the resulting 
hierarchy may well be be more rigid, and the likelihood of social 
mobility less, than a system based on rank and birth. The reason no one 
dares say this now is that it's unacceptable to suggest that some people 
have, because of their parents, innately less academic potential than 
others, and will thus get left at the bottom of the ladder while the 
more able ones climb up.

There's also the undeniable fact that the occupations regarded as 
working class are dwindling in number and importance. Many people who 
would have worked in farms, mines, foundries, shipyards and factories 
are now in white-collar occupations - call centre workers, social care 
assistants, child minders, etc. Skilled tradesmen (plumbers, 
electricians etc) are often able to make a very good living and have a 
comfortable middle-class lifestyle, so they're not really working class 
any more either.

I'm not sure where that leaves folk song. I do believe that a lot of the 
best old songs have a universality about them - the experiences and 
feelings they describe are often very similar to those we have today, so 
I don't think the specific detail of their settings (farms, fields, 
castles, etc) necessarily makes them irrelevant to today.





-- 
Marjorie

To reply, replace dontusethisaddress with marje

> When politicians advocate social mobility, the implication is that such 
> mobility, to be desirable,  is upward. Rather forgets that mobility
> can be two-way, but let that pass. Apart from the cheerful absurdity
> of everyone being, eventually, above average in terms of wealth, 
> intelligence and looks, there is also the harsh fact that those who can 
> use education to rise socially mostly will and those who can't certainly 
> won't. This has been going on since the 194? - probably 1944  - 
> Education Act, and accounts for the frustration felt at apparent 
> cessation of social mobility.

Moralizing bullshit aiming to justify the inequities inherent in
capitalism by arguing that in theory its victims could do better
goes back a long way before 1944.  That was Samuel Smiles's life
project and generations of socialists, communists and anarchists
had a grand time demolishing it.

If-only-you'd-tried-harder is capitalism's version of promising you
forty perpetual virgins in Paradise.

==== j a c k  at  c a m p i n . m e . u k  ===  <http://www.campin.me.uk> ====
Jack Campin, 11 Third St, Newtongrange EH22 4PU, Scotland == mob 07800 739 557
CD-ROMs and free stuff:  Scottish music, food intolerance, and Mac logic fonts

In message , Jack 
Campin - bogus address  writes
>> When politicians advocate social mobility, the implication is that such
>> mobility, to be desirable,  is upward. Rather forgets that mobility
>> can be two-way, but let that pass. Apart from the cheerful absurdity
>> of everyone being, eventually, above average in terms of wealth,
>> intelligence and looks, there is also the harsh fact that those who can
>> use education to rise socially mostly will and those who can't certainly
>> won't. This has been going on since the 194? - probably 1944  -
>> Education Act, and accounts for the frustration felt at apparent
>> cessation of social mobility.
>
>Moralizing bullshit aiming to justify the inequities inherent in
>capitalism by arguing that in theory its victims could do better
>goes back a long way before 1944.  That was Samuel Smiles's life
>project and generations of socialists, communists and anarchists
>had a grand time demolishing it.
>
>If-only-you'd-tried-harder is capitalism's version of promising you
>forty perpetual virgins in Paradise.



Yes, life is *not* fair, but who WAS Michael Young?





-- 
Peter Thomas

Peter Thomas wrote:
> In message , Jack 
> Campin - bogus address  writes
>>> When politicians advocate social mobility, the implication is that such
>>> mobility, to be desirable,  is upward. Rather forgets that mobility
>>> can be two-way, but let that pass. Apart from the cheerful absurdity
>>> of everyone being, eventually, above average in terms of wealth,
>>> intelligence and looks, there is also the harsh fact that those who can
>>> use education to rise socially mostly will and those who can't certainly
>>> won't. This has been going on since the 194? - probably 1944  -
>>> Education Act, and accounts for the frustration felt at apparent
>>> cessation of social mobility.
>>
>> Moralizing bullshit aiming to justify the inequities inherent in
>> capitalism by arguing that in theory its victims could do better
>> goes back a long way before 1944.  That was Samuel Smiles's life
>> project and generations of socialists, communists and anarchists
>> had a grand time demolishing it.
>>
>> If-only-you'd-tried-harder is capitalism's version of promising you
>> forty perpetual virgins in Paradise.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, life is *not* fair, but who WAS Michael Young?
> 
Sorry, I was just trying to keep it brief. Author of "The Rise of the 
Meritocracy" (a term he coined, in 1958 I think).

-- 
Marjorie

To reply, replace dontusethisaddress with marje

In message <j-WdnYh_9ZqlEPHVRVnyuAA@posted.plusnet>, Marjorie 
 writes
>Peter Thomas wrote:
>> In message , Jack 
>>Campin - bogus address  writes
>>>> When politicians advocate social mobility, the implication is that such
>>>> mobility, to be desirable,  is upward.
...
>>>> This has been going on since the 194? - probably 1944  -
>>>> Education Act, and accounts for the frustration felt at apparent
>>>> cessation of social mobility.
>>>
>>> Moralizing bullshit aiming to justify the inequities inherent in
>>> capitalism by arguing that in theory its victims could do better
>>> goes back a long way before 1944.  That was Samuel Smiles's life
>>> project and generations of socialists, communists and anarchists
>>> had a grand time demolishing it.
>>>
>>> If-only-you'd-tried-harder is capitalism's version of promising you
>>> forty perpetual virgins in Paradise.
>>    Yes, life is *not* fair, but who WAS Michael Young?
>>
>Sorry, I was just trying to keep it brief. Author of "The Rise of the 
>Meritocracy" (a term he coined, in 1958 I think).
>
Thanks Marjorie. I'd heard of the title but not the author.

This might be a good place to mention a couple of discussions:

Grauniad blog at

http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/music/2008/07/community_singing_doesnt_need.h
tml

and

live discussion on 29/7 at Brick Lane, titled "Who gives a folk?":

http://www.battleofideas.org.uk/index.php/2008/session_detail/1161/





-- 
Peter Thomas

On 2 Jul, 16:59, Marjorie
 wrote:

> > The Social Mobility paradox.

> You're saying what very few academics dare to say now, although Michael
> Young said it 50 years ago. If you create a meritocracy, the resulting
> hierarchy may well be be more rigid, and the likelihood of social
> mobility less, than a system based on rank and birth. The reason no one
> dares say this now is that it's unacceptable to suggest that some people
> have, because of their parents, innately less academic potential than
> others, and will thus get left at the bottom of the ladder while the
> more able ones climb up.

Absolutely but as you say, such considerations undermine the whole PC
project we're all signed up to.

In message 
, 
Gill.Smith.999@googlemail.com writes
>On 2 Jul, 16:59, Marjorie
> wrote:
>
>> > The Social Mobility paradox.
>
....
>>The reason no one
>> dares say this now is that it's unacceptable to suggest that some people
>> have, because of their parents, innately less academic potential than
>> others, and will thus get left at the bottom of the ladder while the
>> more able ones climb up.
>
>Absolutely but as you say, such considerations undermine the whole PC
>project we're all signed up to.

*All* signed up to?


-- 
Peter Thomas

On 4 Jul, 16:54, Peter Thomas <peterdoub...@doubledemon.co.uk.invalid>
wrote:
> In message
> ,
> Gill.Smith....@googlemail.com writes
>
> >On 2 Jul, 16:59, Marjorie
> > wrote:
>
> >> > The Social Mobility paradox.
>
> ....
> >>The reason no one
> >> dares say this now is that it's unacceptable to suggest that some people
> >> have, because of their parents, innately less academic potential than
> >> others, and will thus get left at the bottom of the ladder while the
> >> more able ones climb up.
>
> >Absolutely but as you say, such considerations undermine the whole PC
> >project we're all signed up to.
>
> *All* signed up to?

To a greater or lesser degree. It's replaced sex or religion as our
taboo.

At 07:46:49 on Sat, 5 Jul 2008, Gill.Smith.999@googlemail.com wrote in 
:

>On 4 Jul, 16:54, Peter Thomas <peterdoub...@doubledemon.co.uk.invalid>
>wrote:
>> In message
>> ,
>> Gill.Smith....@googlemail.com writes

>> >Absolutely but as you say, such considerations undermine the whole PC
>> >project we're all signed up to.
>>
>> *All* signed up to?
>
>To a greater or lesser degree. It's replaced sex or religion as our
>taboo.

Since "we" have never all adhered to one religion, and "we" have 
certainly never all been of one sex, I fail to see how you can assert 
that "we" are all of one political opinion.
-- 
Molly Mockford
They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety
deserve neither liberty nor safety - Benjamin Franklin
(My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not remain so for ever.)

Stephen Kellett wrote:

> 
> Is you song observant of their predicament, sympathetic to their 
> predicament or scathing of it?
> 

It's a first person lament, so possibly none of the above - I think.....

On 5 Jul, 16:43, Molly Mockford 
wrote:
> At 07:46:49 on Sat, 5 Jul 2008, Gill.Smith....@googlemail.com wrote in
> :
>
> >On 4 Jul, 16:54, Peter Thomas
>
> Since "we" have never all adhered to one religion, and "we" have
> certainly never all been of one sex, I fail to see how you can assert
> that "we" are all of one political opinion.

"We" all didn't have sex until 1963.

In message 
, 
Gill.Smith.999@googlemail.com writes
>On 5 Jul, 16:43, Molly Mockford 
>wrote:
>> At 07:46:49 on Sat, 5 Jul 2008, Gill.Smith....@googlemail.com wrote in
>> :
>>
>> >On 4 Jul, 16:54, Peter Thomas
>>
>> Since "we" have never all adhered to one religion, and "we" have
>> certainly never all been of one sex, I fail to see how you can assert
>> that "we" are all of one political opinion.
>
>"We" all didn't have sex until 1963.

Being a bit picky, Gill, dear, why list me in the attributions without 
any text from me? Hellish confusing of you.

You *remember* 1963?

-- 
Peter Thomas

Gill.Smith.999@googlemail.com wrote:
> On 5 Jul, 16:43, Molly Mockford 
> wrote:
>> At 07:46:49 on Sat, 5 Jul 2008, Gill.Smith....@googlemail.com wrote in
>> :
>>
>>> On 4 Jul, 16:54, Peter Thomas
>> Since "we" have never all adhered to one religion, and "we" have
>> certainly never all been of one sex, I fail to see how you can assert
>> that "we" are all of one political opinion.
> 
> "We" all didn't have sex until 1963.

And quite rightly, too.........."we" were only 10

Folk music, anyone?

In message 
, 
Gill.Smith.999@googlemail.com writes
>On 5 Jul, 16:43, Molly Mockford 
>wrote:
>> At 07:46:49 on Sat, 5 Jul 2008, Gill.Smith....@googlemail.com wrote in
>> :
>>
>> >On 4 Jul, 16:54, Peter Thomas
>>
>> Since "we" have never all adhered to one religion, and "we" have
>> certainly never all been of one sex, I fail to see how you can assert
>> that "we" are all of one political opinion.
>
>"We" all didn't have sex until 1963.
Damn it - so that's what went wrong ... I didn't get back to the UK 
until 1964 ;^)
Chris A.
-- 
Chris Atkinson
christopher.atkinson43@ntlworld.com
Things are more like they are now than they ever were before.

On 13 Jul, 21:57, Chris Atkinson 
wrote:
> In message
> ,
> Gill.Smith....@googlemail.com writes>On 5 Jul, 16:43, Molly Mockford 
> >wrote:
> >> At 07:46:49 on Sat, 5 Jul 2008, Gill.Smith....@googlemail.com wrote in
> >> :
>
> >> >On 4 Jul, 16:54, Peter Thomas
>
> >> Since "we" have never all adhered to one religion, and "we" have
> >> certainly never all been of one sex, I fail to see how you can assert
> >> that "we" are all of one political opinion.
>
> >"We" all didn't have sex until 1963.
>
> Damn it - so that's what went wrong ... I didn't get back to the UK
> until 1964 ;^)

Ah well, better late than never.