In article <481ae446$1_4@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com>, dennis@fake () wrote:

> > David Kilpatrick wrote:
> >> Local paper got a letter from one our more sensitive regulars 
> >> complaining about another regular, who performs George Formby 
> songs >> (very well, and with an excellent Gibson gold series 1930s 
> banjulele).
> >>
> >> The complaint is about the racist nature of these songs which 
> include >> words like 'chink', 'kaffir' and 'zulu' which is 
> unacceptable in this 

(I didn't see the original of this)

Did this sensitive regular try saying something to the club organisers, before
going public with a letter to the paper?

-- 
To reply email rafe, at the address cix co uk

Rafe Culpin wrote:
> In article <481ae446$1_4@mk-nntp-2.news.uk.tiscali.com>, dennis@fake () wrote:
> 
>>> David Kilpatrick wrote:
>>>> Local paper got a letter from one our more sensitive regulars 
>>>> complaining about another regular, who performs George Formby 
>> songs >> (very well, and with an excellent Gibson gold series 1930s 
>> banjulele).
>>>> The complaint is about the racist nature of these songs which 
>> include >> words like 'chink', 'kaffir' and 'zulu' which is 
>> unacceptable in this 
> 
> (I didn't see the original of this)
> 
> Did this sensitive regular try saying something to the club organisers, before
> going public with a letter to the paper?
> 

Well, he's made grumbling noises for ever about these songs but never 
bothered to notice the racism/sexism/militarism in countless other songs 
- so we have ignored him. He has targeted a neighbour he doesn't like, 
simple as that.

I am now all over the national press - misquoted in the Daily Mail 
Scottish edition with a full page devoted to the story, and the same in 
The Times nationally - both did a great job pulling up real info about 
Formby, about his anti-racialist stance and his investigation for being 
pro enemy aliens during WWII (exonerated). They made the complainers 
look like total prats.

And we got over 100 people into the club tonight, you couldn't move. 
Roger performed 'Mr Wu's An Air Raid Warden Now' to massive applause and 
our whistleblowers were conspicuous by absence. It was amazing. Like the 
absolute victory of common sense.

Viz could make a good 'Modern Parents' episode out of this one. The pub 
is delighted. They get on TV next week, and they sold more beer tonight 
than ever before. Back in Tuesday they were so worried about this they 
thought the folk club would have to close.

David

We have a web page up with links to some of the press stories:

http://www.kelsofolk.co.uk/index.php/2008/05/03/good-formby-bad-form-club-hits-the-headlines/

David

On Sat, 03 May 2008 02:11:26 +0100, David Kilpatrick
 wrote:
>
> 
> I am now all over the national press - misquoted in the Daily Mail 
> Scottish edition with a full page devoted to the story, and the same in 
> The Times nationally - both did a great job pulling up real info about 
> Formby, about his anti-racialist stance and his investigation for being 
> pro enemy aliens during WWII (exonerated). They made the complainers 
> look like total prats.
> 
> And we got over 100 people into the club tonight, you couldn't move. 
> Roger performed 'Mr Wu's An Air Raid Warden Now' to massive applause and 
> our whistleblowers were conspicuous by absence. It was amazing. Like the 
> absolute victory of common sense.
> 
> Viz could make a good 'Modern Parents' episode out of this one. The pub 
> is delighted. They get on TV next week, and they sold more beer tonight 
> than ever before. Back in Tuesday they were so worried about this they 
> thought the folk club would have to close.

Congrats.  Always good when common sense prevails.

(Partly makes up for the victory in the London Mayoral elections of
someone with the public persona of a buffoon ... Jeez, what is our
country coming to?)

On Sat, 03 May 2008 13:34:03 +0100, David Kilpatrick
 squeezed out the following:

>We have a web page up with links to some of the press stories:
>
>http://www.kelsofolk.co.uk/index.php/2008/05/03/good-formby-bad-form-club-hits-the-headlines/

If the Ryans' objection is that they find the language used offensive
then too bad for them. There are folk songs I find offensive but I
wouldn't dream of trying to have them proscribed.

If the language used runs foul of any law then you've a problem. Has
any useful opinion been offered on this aspect?

-- 
Colin Irvine
http://www.colinandpat.co.uk

The message 
from Java Jive  contains these words:

> On Sat, 03 May 2008 02:11:26 +0100, David Kilpatrick
>  wrote:
> >
> > 
> > I am now all over the national press - misquoted in the Daily Mail 
> > Scottish edition with a full page devoted to the story, and the same in 
> > The Times nationally - both did a great job pulling up real info about 
> > Formby, about his anti-racialist stance and his investigation for being 
> > pro enemy aliens during WWII (exonerated). They made the complainers 
> > look like total prats.
> > 
> > And we got over 100 people into the club tonight, you couldn't move. 
> > Roger performed 'Mr Wu's An Air Raid Warden Now' to massive applause and 
> > our whistleblowers were conspicuous by absence. It was amazing. Like the 
> > absolute victory of common sense.
> > 
> > Viz could make a good 'Modern Parents' episode out of this one. The pub 
> > is delighted. They get on TV next week, and they sold more beer tonight 
> > than ever before. Back in Tuesday they were so worried about this they 
> > thought the folk club would have to close.

> Congrats.  Always good when common sense prevails.

> (Partly makes up for the victory in the London Mayoral elections of
> someone with the public persona of a buffoon ... Jeez, what is our
> country coming to?)

Ah, that's the trouble with democracy.  I remember a union meeting when
one of the old timers complained about having to put something to the
vote because you might get the wrong answer.  And the light bulbs were
all better in those days. And you could call a black guy a nigger and we
all thought it was a jolly good laugh.

Perhaps it's a divergence between the traditional singer and those of us
brought up in the contemporary folk world.  Folk for Fascism maybe, as a
counterweight to the insidious influence of rock against racism.  

Of course the pub was full.  Bernard Manning used to get an audience of
thousands. I'm just not sure that that's the audience you should be
aiming at in Kelso.  There again, maybe its just a shortage of material
you can play on a uke banjo. 

Times change, as the old Roman bods used to say, and we have to change
with them.  There was a point to being politically correct before it
degenerated into a term of abuse - words, as I have said elswehere, are
important.  And I'm still siding with your whistleblower - an
interesting term of phrase in itself to be picked to denigrate someone.

-- 

                    Arthur Marshall
           Caller for Traditional Dances
              nb Lord Byron's Maggot
     www.users.zetnet.co.uk/barndancer
       www.myspace.com/athurhimself

Colin Irvine wrote:
> On Sat, 03 May 2008 13:34:03 +0100, David Kilpatrick
>  squeezed out the following:
> 
>> We have a web page up with links to some of the press stories:
>>
>> http://www.kelsofolk.co.uk/index.php/2008/05/03/good-formby-bad-form-club-hits-the-headlines/
> 
> If the Ryans' objection is that they find the language used offensive
> then too bad for them. There are folk songs I find offensive but I
> wouldn't dream of trying to have them proscribed.
> 
> If the language used runs foul of any law then you've a problem. Has
> any useful opinion been offered on this aspect?
> 

Only precedent, which is that so far no complaint has been upheld 
against George Formby lyrics but one or two instances of audience 
protest have happened. That can happen with any song.

We do have at least one lawyer present, and often enough one policeman. 
Neither has ever expressed any concern in the past. Keith Ryan suggests 
that people of 'ethnic origin' have come to the club in the past and 
never returned. This must something he knows and we don't. Many people 
come back to the club every year when their 'event' is on (ram sales, 
rugby sevens, union show, angling fair etc) - discover it one year, and 
then make it a regular Friday night visit when staying here.

David

Arthur Marshall wrote:

> Of course the pub was full.  Bernard Manning used to get an audience of
> thousands. I'm just not sure that that's the audience you should be
> aiming at in Kelso.  There again, maybe its just a shortage of material
> you can play on a uke banjo. 

Well, the pub was full with more than the usual number of young 
alternative/contemporary players. One did a pretty fair acoustic 
rendering of 'Psychokiller' and even got some middle-aged accompaniment 
- and the comment from someone, 'do you realise it's 30 years since that 
was recorded?'.

I have occasionally played fingerstyle on the banjulele when tuning it 
for Rog (enthiastic playing tends to shift the bridge and it needs a 
quick setup). It's a lovely instrument and the sound of a really good 
one like the Gibson is far, far removed from the harsh bark you get out 
of the cheaper ones - even vintage John Greys are nowhere near as refined.
> 
> Times change, as the old Roman bods used to say, and we have to change
> with them.  There was a point to being politically correct before it
> degenerated into a term of abuse - words, as I have said elswehere, are
> important.  And I'm still siding with your whistleblower - an
> interesting term of phrase in itself to be picked to denigrate someone.
> 

I think that's what he thinks he is, not what everyone else thinks. Most 
people just see someone who is annoyed or jealous because one individual 
doing a certain repertoire gets lots of applause and has confidence.

Words are important. When hunting was legal, I would never have sung 
John Peel or the Kielder Hunt (I'd skip the track in one CD with the 
Kielder Hunt). Now I'm considering doing John Peel, it was a song I was 
brought up on in Cumbria, and it's more a part of history than a 
celebration of something still happening.

What matters in this is that we don't start censoring what can and can't 
be played or sung at the club. If someone does something which results 
in several audience members booing or telling them to stop, that's OK - 
that's their risk (it has happened with rugger songs inappropriately 
started).

We've had one visitor walk out because of Roger's humorous songs - he 
did one, maybe not a Formby song, about a vicar. A guest of mine left 
early with words of complaint as he did so, and apologised to me later, 
explaining that he was a committed Christian and found any song making 
fun of the clergy unacceptable.

David

>>> And we got over 100 people into the club tonight, you couldn't move. 
>>> Roger performed 'Mr Wu's An Air Raid Warden Now' to massive applause
>>> and our whistleblowers were conspicuous by absence. It was amazing.
>>> Like the absolute victory of common sense.
> Of course the pub was full.  Bernard Manning used to get an audience of
> thousands. I'm just not sure that that's the audience you should be
> aiming at in Kelso.

Anybody after Bernard Manning material would have wanted their money
back.

I've heard this guy doing his George Formby act, and you would have to
be the sort of person who wants to be offended to be offended.  (It's a
pity English syntax isn't agglutinative enough to construct a passive
form of "offensive", there are lots of people queuing up to be described
as such).

There are a few consciously racist items in the UK folk repertoire -
"Dublin in the Rare Old Times" is one (look at Pete St John's lyrics
site, it's obvious where he's coming from).  Formby songs aren't among
them.

==== j a c k  at  c a m p i n . m e . u k  ===  <http://www.campin.me.uk> ====
Jack Campin, 11 Third St, Newtongrange EH22 4PU, Scotland == mob 07800 739 557
CD-ROMs and free stuff:  Scottish music, food intolerance, and Mac logic fonts

On Sat, 03 May 2008 20:57:28 +0100, Jack Campin - bogus address
 wrote:

snipped
>
>I've heard this guy doing his George Formby act, and you would have to
>be the sort of person who wants to be offended to be offended.  (It's a
>pity English syntax isn't agglutinative enough to construct a passive
>form of "offensive", there are lots of people queuing up to be described
>as such).


And a good Banjo player he is. To take away George Formby from his
routine would be like throwing cold water on a depressed person!

Jacqui

On Sat, 03 May 2008 19:31:38 +0100, David Kilpatrick
 squeezed out the following:

>Colin Irvine wrote:
>> On Sat, 03 May 2008 13:34:03 +0100, David Kilpatrick
>>  squeezed out the following:
>> 
>>> We have a web page up with links to some of the press stories:
>>>
>>> http://www.kelsofolk.co.uk/index.php/2008/05/03/good-formby-bad-form-club-hits-the-headlines/
>> 
>> If the Ryans' objection is that they find the language used offensive
>> then too bad for them. There are folk songs I find offensive but I
>> wouldn't dream of trying to have them proscribed.
>> 
>> If the language used runs foul of any law then you've a problem. Has
>> any useful opinion been offered on this aspect?
>> 
>
>Only precedent, which is that so far no complaint has been upheld 
>against George Formby lyrics but one or two instances of audience 
>protest have happened. That can happen with any song.

Quite.

>We do have at least one lawyer present, and often enough one policeman. 
>Neither has ever expressed any concern in the past.

Sounds good - it's what I would've expected.

>Keith Ryan suggests 
>that people of 'ethnic origin' have come to the club in the past and 
>never returned. 

An example which, in all conscience, he should follow.

-- 
Colin Irvine
http://www.colinandpat.co.uk

>> We have a web page up with links to some of the press stories:
>> http://tinyurl.com/3qse45
> And from a different newspaper, quoting the people protesting:
> "There have been people of ethnic origin who have gone along to
> the club nights and have simply not gone back."

"People of ethnic origin"?  How fucking condescending can you get?

It's going to be "take me to your community leader" next.


> This sort of crap really does make my blood boil. I'm despite
> the above text, really, lost for words about this crap.

I'm intrigued to know if I've met either of the Ryans.  People
who could start a brawl in a phonebox are common enough in the
folk scene but I haven't knowingly run into one at Kelso.


Meanwhile.  Seen this reported in any widely available medium in
the UK?

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/may2008/turk-m05.shtml
http://tinyurl.com/5pcqxc

You can bet it would have been reported if it had been in Tibet.

What's the Ryans' take on workers being sprayed with CS, water-cannoned
and battered with nightsticks?  Nowhere near as serious as a pensioner
singing with a ukulele?

==== j a c k  at  c a m p i n . m e . u k  ===  <http://www.campin.me.uk> ====
Jack Campin, 11 Third St, Newtongrange EH22 4PU, Scotland == mob 07800 739 557
CD-ROMs and free stuff:  Scottish music, food intolerance, and Mac logic fonts

The message 
from Jack Campin - bogus address  contains these
words:

> Meanwhile.  Seen this reported in any widely available medium in
> the UK?

> http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/may2008/turk-m05.shtml
> http://tinyurl.com/5pcqxc

> You can bet it would have been reported if it had been in Tibet.

> What's the Ryans' take on workers being sprayed with CS, water-cannoned
> and battered with nightsticks?  Nowhere near as serious as a pensioner
> singing with a ukulele?

Once upon a time, when I was young and my beard was brown and I was not
yet taller than my hair, somone in a folk club who was interested in the
world at large would have written a song about the above events (for
those who couldn't be bothered to look it up, it's about a few people
being battered in Turkey).

However, as is obvious by this thread, it is more important these days
to use any minimal musical talent one may have to sing George Formby
songs. First things first, after all.  

--

On Wed, 7 May 2008 16:36:51 +0100, arthurm.marshall
 squeezed out the following:

>Once upon a time, when I was young and my beard was brown and I was not
>yet taller than my hair, somone in a folk club who was interested in the
>world at large would have written a song about the above events (for
>those who couldn't be bothered to look it up, it's about a few people
>being battered in Turkey).
>
>However, as is obvious by this thread, it is more important these days
>to use any minimal musical talent one may have to sing George Formby
>songs. First things first, after all.  

You're not from Tunbridge Wells, are you?

-- 
Colin Irvine
http://www.colinandpat.co.uk

"arthurm.marshall"  wrote in message 
news:31303030323539354821DAA320@zetnet.co.uk...
> The message 
> from Jack Campin - bogus address  contains these
> words:
>
>> Meanwhile.  Seen this reported in any widely available medium in
>> the UK?
>
>> http://www.wsws.org/articles/2008/may2008/turk-m05.shtml
>> http://tinyurl.com/5pcqxc
>
>> You can bet it would have been reported if it had been in Tibet.
>
>> What's the Ryans' take on workers being sprayed with CS, water-cannoned
>> and battered with nightsticks?  Nowhere near as serious as a pensioner
>> singing with a ukulele?
>
> Once upon a time, when I was young and my beard was brown and I was not
> yet taller than my hair, somone in a folk club who was interested in the
> world at large would have written a song about the above events (for
> those who couldn't be bothered to look it up, it's about a few people
> being battered in Turkey).
>
> However, as is obvious by this thread, it is more important these days
> to use any minimal musical talent one may have to sing George Formby
> songs. First things first, after all.


It is a 'Folk and Live Music' club, hence the reptoire in an evening's 
session is quite diverse, ranging from folk music through 60s music right up 
to material from today's pop charts. Formby might not be everyone's thing 
but out of a typical session which lasts the best part of 4 hours or so 
Roger might only sing a couple of songs. So it leaves plenty of room for 
other types of material and David has already suggested to people that the 
best way to make a point is to do it through song!

Allan