Local paper got a letter from one our more sensitive regulars 
complaining about another regular, who performs George Formby songs 
(very well, and with an excellent Gibson gold series 1930s banjulele).

The complaint is about the racist nature of these songs which include 
words like 'chink', 'kaffir' and 'zulu' which is unacceptable in this 
age of zero tolerance to race hate.

I'm due to make some sort of comment on Radio Five Live, 6.55pm (maybe 
they record the call then and edit it? Not sure). Already fended off two 
news agency reporters, but won't do any good - it will be in the 
nationals tomorrow I guess.

We don't intend to censor songs as this is a thin end of a large wedge 
covering 300 years of political, music-hall, cornkister, Dixie, blues, 
jazz, rock, rap and countless other genres. Race now, gender tomorrow, 
war and violence next - there won't be any ballads left you can sing.

I've just heard that other radio and TV stations are chasing the story, 
the Daily Record has phoned the pub, and our George Formby enthusiast 
has gone into hiding.

This may sound like a joke but it's potentially not a joke. There are 
influential people who would like to see the performance and 
broadcasting of a big chunk of current music banned (ref - Chumbawamba's 
collaboration with DJ Fusion). Half-a-dozen old George Formby ditties 
would be an easy target, and it only takes a formal repetition of the 
complaint against our club, made to the Police Hate Crimes Unit (sounds 
like something out of 1984) to bring a case to court.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/northamptonshire/7300167.stm

No more singing 'The Three Gypsies' then...

David

-- 
Icon Publications Ltd, Maxwell Place, Maxwell Lane, Kelso TD5 7BB
Company Registered in England No 2122711. Registered Office 12 Exchange 
St, Retford, Notts DN22 6BL
VAT Reg No GB458101463
Trading as Icon Publications Ltd, Photoworld Club and Troubadour.uk.com
www.iconpublications.com - www.troubadour.uk.com - www.f2photo.co.uk - 
www.photoclubalpha.com - www.minoltaclub.co.uk
Tel +44 1573 226032

David Kilpatrick wrote:
> Local paper got a letter from one our more sensitive regulars 
> complaining about another regular, who performs George Formby songs 
> (very well, and with an excellent Gibson gold series 1930s banjulele).
> 
> The complaint is about the racist nature of these songs which include 
> words like 'chink', 'kaffir' and 'zulu' which is unacceptable in this 
> age of zero tolerance to race hate.
> 
> I'm due to make some sort of comment on Radio Five Live, 6.55pm (maybe 
> they record the call then and edit it? Not sure). Already fended off two 
> news agency reporters, but won't do any good - it will be in the 
> nationals tomorrow I guess.
> 
> We don't intend to censor songs as this is a thin end of a large wedge 
> covering 300 years of political, music-hall, cornkister, Dixie, blues, 
> jazz, rock, rap and countless other genres. Race now, gender tomorrow, 
> war and violence next - there won't be any ballads left you can sing.
> 
> I've just heard that other radio and TV stations are chasing the story, 
> the Daily Record has phoned the pub, and our George Formby enthusiast 
> has gone into hiding.
> 
> This may sound like a joke but it's potentially not a joke. There are 
> influential people who would like to see the performance and 
> broadcasting of a big chunk of current music banned (ref - Chumbawamba's 
> collaboration with DJ Fusion). Half-a-dozen old George Formby ditties 
> would be an easy target, and it only takes a formal repetition of the 
> complaint against our club, made to the Police Hate Crimes Unit (sounds 
> like something out of 1984) to bring a case to court.
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/northamptonshire/7300167.stm
> 
> No more singing 'The Three Gypsies' then...
> 
Good luck, David, we'll be rooting for you! I'm sure you'll be capable 
of putting a sensible case for non-censorship of such material without 
endorsing any racist sentiments, or implying that it would be acceptable 
to use these words so casually now.
The terms that now cause offence were probably so common as to have been 
unremarkable at the time these songs were written . You can't separate a 
song from its roots, and to try to ban Formby (or Steven Foster, or even 
our old friend Anon) would be like banning Don Giovanni on the grounds 
that its assumptions, plot and language are  unacceptably sexist.

All the best!

-- 
Marjorie

To reply, replace dontusethisaddress with marje

Marjorie said:
> David Kilpatrick wrote:
>> Local paper got a letter from one our more sensitive regulars 
>> complaining about another regular, who performs George Formby songs 
>> (very well, and with an excellent Gibson gold series 1930s banjulele).
>> ...
>> 
> Good luck, David, we'll be rooting for you! I'm sure you'll be capable 
> of putting a sensible case for non-censorship of such material without 
> endorsing any racist sentiments, or implying that it would be acceptable 
> to use these words so casually now.
> The terms that now cause offence were probably so common as to have been 
> unremarkable at the time these songs were written . You can't separate a 
> song from its roots, and to try to ban Formby (or Steven Foster, or even 
> our old friend Anon) would be like banning Don Giovanni on the grounds 
> that its assumptions, plot and language are  unacceptably sexist.

Or Tam Lin. Which is a discussion I have memories of ...


Try "They came for George Formby, and I said nothing because I can't
stand the banjo" ?

> All the best!

Yes.


-- 
Richard Robinson
"The whole plan hinged upon the natural curiosity of potatoes" - S. Lem

My email address is at http://www.qualmograph.org.uk/contact.html

Marjorie wrote:

> All the best!
> 


Well, Radio Five Live presumably got hold of the main participants as I 
awaited their call and it never came... delayed eating too. Typical :-)

Of course I couldn't listen either as I was in a quiet area of the house 
to be better placed for sound/dogs/fishtanks/TV noise not interfering.

David

> Local paper got a letter from one our more sensitive regulars 
> complaining about another regular, who performs George Formby songs 
> (very well, and with an excellent Gibson gold series 1930s banjulele).
> The complaint is about the racist nature of these songs which include 
> words like 'chink', 'kaffir' and 'zulu' which is unacceptable in this 
> age of zero tolerance to race hate.

Next time I come down there I must remember to bring my copies of
Stephen Foster, Kipling's Barrack Room Ballads and Ritchie's books
of Edinburgh kids' songs with me.  I could pick which ones to do
by counting out "eeny, meeny, miny, mo...".

==== j a c k  at  c a m p i n . m e . u k  ===  <http://www.campin.me.uk> ====
Jack Campin, 11 Third St, Newtongrange EH22 4PU, Scotland == mob 07800 739 557
CD-ROMs and free stuff:  Scottish music, food intolerance, and Mac logic fonts

David Kilpatrick wrote:
> Local paper got a letter from one our more sensitive regulars 
> complaining about another regular, who performs George Formby songs 
> (very well, and with an excellent Gibson gold series 1930s banjulele).
> 
> The complaint is about the racist nature of these songs which include 
> words like 'chink', 'kaffir' and 'zulu' which is unacceptable in this 
> age of zero tolerance to race hate.

It might be worth contacting Derek Schofield, he occasionally writes for 
the Guardian and i'm sure this is the kind of issue they'd be interested in.

JS

sprocket wrote:
> David Kilpatrick wrote:
>> Local paper got a letter from one our more sensitive regulars 
>> complaining about another regular, who performs George Formby songs 
>> (very well, and with an excellent Gibson gold series 1930s banjulele).
>>
>> The complaint is about the racist nature of these songs which include 
>> words like 'chink', 'kaffir' and 'zulu' which is unacceptable in this 
>> age of zero tolerance to race hate.
> 
> It might be worth contacting Derek Schofield, he occasionally writes for 
> the Guardian and i'm sure this is the kind of issue they'd be interested 
> in.
> 
> JS
I went to Rivington barn once for a drink and it was full of pensioners. 
One old boy, probably nearer to 80 than 70, got up and sang the most 
racist, obscene version of My Brother Sylveste I've ever heard. It 
brought the house down.

dennis@fake wrote:

> One old boy, probably nearer to 80 than 70, got up and sang the most 
> racist, obscene version of My Brother Sylveste I've ever heard. It 
> brought the house down.

Could have been my dad if he were still alive. "Killed forty n*****s in 
the west, he takes no rest"...

On Fri, 02 May 2008 11:42:03 +0100, sprocket  wrote:

>dennis@fake wrote:
>
>> One old boy, probably nearer to 80 than 70, got up and sang the most 
>> racist, obscene version of My Brother Sylveste I've ever heard. It 
>> brought the house down.
>
>Could have been my dad if he were still alive. "Killed forty n*****s in 
>the west, he takes no rest"...


Makes me wonder why I did  a short course on the history of folk
music. These songs are history. They may have some offensive
words/phrases but they are part of times gone by and History. It would
be insane to not sing them for this reason. I suppose that a
disclaimer at the beginning of the session could be done. I grew up on
George Formby and have memories of all my uncles and aunts play8ing
banjos/ combs and izal and even us youngsters singing them. 

We could start a list of 100's of offensive songs but I don't see the
point. If you think about it most songs with half decent lyrics have
something offensive in it.

Jacqui

The message <fver6r$mrl$1@aioe.org>
from sprocket  contains these words:

> dennis@fake wrote:

> > One old boy, probably nearer to 80 than 70, got up and sang the most 
> > racist, obscene version of My Brother Sylveste I've ever heard. It 
> > brought the house down.

> Could have been my dad if he were still alive. "Killed forty n*****s in 
> the west, he takes no rest"...

Interesting. 

No doubt it was very funny, but odd that you can't bring yourself to
actually write the word?

As per my comment on another thread, it's either OK or it isn't.  As you
obviously think that it isn't, shouldn't we have the guts to say so?
Words and how they are used matter, because they affect the way you
think.  And possibly we don't think that racism, in the sense of
believing some races are subhuman and should be treated as such, is
funny any more.

Or is it OK because it once was? Back to folksingers changing a
lightbulb, i think.

Some attitudues, and therefore some songs, are probably best confined to
history and a dustbin. If that means someone has to stop playing a
banjo, I suppose that's just a collateral benefit...

-- 

                    Arthur Marshall
           Caller for Traditional Dances
              nb Lord Byron's Maggot
     www.users.zetnet.co.uk/barndancer
       www.myspace.com/athurhimself

Arthur Marshall wrote:

>> Could have been my dad if he were still alive. "Killed forty n*****s in 
>> the west, he takes no rest"...
> 
> Interesting. 
> 
> No doubt it was very funny, but odd that you can't bring yourself to
> actually write the word?
> 

I didn't say it was funny. I was reporting what he sang, in a way 
everyone would understand given the context, and without actually 
writing words which would be considered offensive taken out of context. 
It should be noted that when my father was alive, racist expressions 
were much more accepted as part of everyday conversation. "where's Mum?" 
"She's run off with a black man." Or my granny's weary expression of 
exasperation at children's misbehaviour: "No wonder n****s eat them!" No 
  racial antagonism was expressed or intended in either case

> As per my comment on another thread, it's either OK or it isn't.  

Or it's somewhere inbetween. Context is important. Conversation 
overheard circa 1978 in a works in Yorkshire: "I've broken this f***** 
thing. Can anyone fix it?" "That'll need weldin'. See that nigger over 
there? If he can't weld it, no one can." Spot the racism in that, and 
chew on it.

JS

> Or it's somewhere inbetween. Context is important. Conversation
> overheard circa 1978 in a works in Yorkshire: "I've broken this f*****
> thing. Can anyone fix it?" "That'll need weldin'. See that nigger over
> there? If he can't weld it, no one can." Spot the racism in that, and
> chew on it.
>
> JS

Now *that* depends on whether it was a coal mine or not...

In article ,
Arthur Marshall   wrote:
>
>Some attitudues, and therefore some songs, are probably best confined to
>history and a dustbin. If that means someone has to stop playing a
>banjo, I suppose that's just a collateral benefit...

And if that isn't .sig material, I don't know what is.

-- 
Andy Breen, not speaking on behalf of the University of Wales
	"The internet, that wonderful tool for bringing us into contact 
	 with things that make us wish we could scrub our brains out with 
	 dental floss.." (Charlie Stross)

On 2 May, 14:54, sprocket  wrote:
> Arthur Marshall wrote:
<snip>
> > As per my comment on another thread, it's either OK or it isn't.
>
> Or it's somewhere inbetween. Context is important. Conversation
> overheard circa 1978 in a works in Yorkshire: "I've broken this f*****
> thing. Can anyone fix it?" "That'll need weldin'. See that nigger over
> there? If he can't weld it, no one can." Spot the racism in that, and
> chew on it.
>
> JS

If the context is important, I suppose it's up to the one using the
terms to make the context clear from the start and not just assume
that people will supply the correct context for themselves.  I am a
little uncomfortable with this over-protective PC world we are now
supposed to live in, but then again, we often don't help our cause by
just wading in with hob-nailed boots.  Er, not that I'm suggesting
that people who wear hob-nailed boots are lacking in care and
consideration, you understand :-]

We have themed singers' nights from time to time and a couple of years
back we had a "non-pc" night.  I don't think we had any complaints.

>> Local paper got a letter from one our more sensitive regulars 
>> complaining about another regular, who performs George Formby songs 
>> (very well, and with an excellent Gibson gold series 1930s banjulele).

http://www.kelsofolk.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2008/02/rogeretc.jpg
 
>> The complaint is about the racist nature of these songs which include 
>> words like 'chink', 'kaffir' and 'zulu' which is unacceptable in this 
>> age of zero tolerance to race hate.
> It might be worth contacting Derek Schofield, he occasionally writes for 
> the Guardian and i'm sure this is the kind of issue they'd be interested
> in.

So they can just add "racist" to their official in-house stereotype of
tankard-swilling Arran-jumper-and-sandal-wearing finger-in-ear singers?

We have about as much chance of getting fair coverage out of those shits
as Sheila Chandra would have of getting a good review in "Identity".

==== j a c k  at  c a m p i n . m e . u k  ===  <http://www.campin.me.uk> ====
Jack Campin, 11 Third St, Newtongrange EH22 4PU, Scotland == mob 07800 739 557
CD-ROMs and free stuff:  Scottish music, food intolerance, and Mac logic fonts

sprocket wrote:

> Or it's somewhere inbetween. Context is important. Conversation 
> overheard circa 1978 in a works in Yorkshire: "I've broken this f***** 
> thing. Can anyone fix it?" "That'll need weldin'. See that nigger over 
> there? If he can't weld it, no one can." Spot the racism in that, and 
> chew on it.
> 

At school in Maltby, 1969, my classmate Geoff Stables was into the 
Northern Soul scene and all-nighters. He also had an unusual face, shock 
of blond hair and blue eyes but features which if he'd been black, would 
have looked good. He was sometimes called a 'white nig' and he referred 
to the black guys he knew on the soul scene as 'nigs'. It was not meant 
offensively, it was a teenage slang use ('nigger' would not have been 
OK, I'm sure). They were his friends/heroes and he'd have been happy to 
have been one of them. That scene was completely 'integrated' then. No 
idea if it still exists.

I'm sure Charlie Williams, the black comedian from Barnsley who built 
himself a very nice house you could see from the M1 near Worsbrough 
Bridge, used his colour to good effect. I have a photograph which was 
used in the Guardian and other pubs around 1970, which I shot when I was 
at the school in 1968:

http://www.alamy.com/thumbs/3/%7B024FE6EE-BC5B-415F-8A01-CEBA45AC3C24%7D/AG3G6R.jpg

There was only one West Indian family in Maltby, they had little girl 
twins (about 3 yrs old here I think) and the whole town including the 
kids at school made a great fuss of them.

I gather there's an exceptionally good folk club in a converted 
community venue just over the road from the school now, keep seeing good 
guests advertised there but it's a very long drive from Scotland.

David

ITV Borders now wants to drag this out into next week by visiting Kelso 
on Tuesday and interviewing the idiot who started all this without 
realising that you do NOT get the press involved. I've lost almost a 
day's work so far because of this. The resulting news reports will be 
contrived, boring and do nothing but stir it up pointlessly.

Mr Keith Ryan, who wrote the complaint to the paper, runs a serious risk 
of a lynch-mob if he turns up at the session tonight. There are genuine 
issues to do with racism, prejudices and intolerance in our region as 
everywhere and someone performing George Formby songs doesn't even 
register on the scale compared to late night drunken assaults on Indian 
and Chinese restaurant owners, bricks through Asian-owned shop windows 
when the owner won't sell 14-year-old neds booze and fags, etc. These 
get the usual court reports and occasional substantial coverage (if 
someone is injured badly enough to make a good photo) but nothing like 
the ridiculous interest shown by the media this week.

Keith is just a spectator, his wife Cate is a good fiddle player and 
will be missed if they decide the club is a hostile place to turn up 
after landing us in this.

David

On Thu, 01 May 2008 16:39:37 +0100, David Kilpatrick
 wrote:

>Local paper got a letter from one our more sensitive regulars 
>complaining about another regular, who performs George Formby songs 
>(very well, and with an excellent Gibson gold series 1930s banjulele).
>
>The complaint is about the racist nature of these songs which include 
>words like 'chink', 'kaffir' and 'zulu' which is unacceptable in this 
>age of zero tolerance to race hate.
>
I'm quite sure the zulus would be offended to hear this. Since when
was zulu a term of race hate. (btw - I am offended at the ignorance
which allows people to write headline-ese in place of correct English
- wtf is "race hate"?)

>I'm due to make some sort of comment on Radio Five Live, 6.55pm (maybe 
>they record the call then and edit it? Not sure). Already fended off two 
>news agency reporters, but won't do any good - it will be in the 
>nationals tomorrow I guess.
>
>This may sound like a joke but it's potentially not a joke. There are 
>influential people who would like to see the performance and 
>broadcasting of a big chunk of current music banned (ref - Chumbawamba's 
>collaboration with DJ Fusion). Half-a-dozen old George Formby ditties 
>would be an easy target, and it only takes a formal repetition of the 
>complaint against our club, made to the Police Hate Crimes Unit (sounds 
>like something out of 1984) to bring a case to court.

Shouldn't that be "Police hate crime"? I should think so too - that's
what we pay them for. 
>
>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/northamptonshire/7300167.stm
>
>No more singing 'The Three Gypsies' then...
>

I've sung "Big buck nigger with his sea boots on" and got no more
tutting disapproval than I got for singing "and we shall live more
happy lives, free from squalling brats and wives". 

One of the reasons we do our best not to bowdlerise our traditions is
that they are more valuable delivered intact. With a tip of the hat to
Godwin, I'd like to mention that one of the things Hitler remains
famous for was the burning of books. This isn't so very far away. 

Funnily enough - the word nigger in sea shanties has probably survived
one bowdlerisation already. 

-- 

Dominic Cronin
Amsterdam

In message , David Kilpatrick 
 writes
>The complaint is about the racist nature of these songs which include 
>words like 'chink', 'kaffir' and 'zulu' which is unacceptable in this 
>age of zero tolerance to race hate.

Well, I note there are 19 posts in this thread and 2 in another, but my 
instant reaction is "For fucks sake, get a life", directed at the 
complainee, not yourself.

Part of what makes culture, culture, is a nod and a wink to the past, 
even if you no longer agree with the sentiments expressed in 
writings/songs/etc of said times past.

Roll on 40 years into the future and we won't be able to make cruel 
jokes about accordion players or the wielders of the bagpipe when 
compared to slicing an onion in two.

>http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/northamptonshire/7300167.stm

Ooeer, thats only an hours drive from me. Even more worrying.

You know, time was when I didn't believe a "nanny state" existed, and 
thought it was more a politic posturing type of thing. But the older I 
get the more I realise there is way too much interfering in things that 
should be left alone.

A friend of mine, a council official, left to spend a year in the 
Dominican Republic, doing similar work. When she came back, the one 
thing that really stuck with me was when she said, "you know, in the UK, 
we are so over-regulated compared to other countries, its a real shame". 
Just one year away and she could see what we can't see.

Stephen
-- 
Stephen Kellett
Object Media Limited    http://www.objmedia.demon.co.uk/software.html
Computer Consultancy, Software Development
Windows C++, Java, Assembler, Performance Analysis, Troubleshooting
Reg Office: 24 Windmill Walk, Sutton, Ely, Cambs CB6 2NH.

"Jack Campin - bogus address"  wrote in message 
news:bogus-0A3C00.01030102052008@news.news.demon.net...

> Next time I come down there I must remember to bring my copies of
> Stephen Foster, Kipling's Barrack Room Ballads and Ritchie's books
> of Edinburgh kids' songs with me.  I could pick which ones to do
> by counting out "eeny, meeny, miny, mo...".

I don't think there's anything terribly racist in the Kipling stuff.

The worst of them, 'Fuzzy Wuzzy', is about the Sudanese breaking a British 
infantry square,  the only time it was ever done.

-- 
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time,  like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.