http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/7149525.stm?dynamic_vote=ON#vote_pogues

"BBC Radio 1 has banned the word "faggot" from the Pogues' 1987 Christmas 
hit Fairytale of New York to avoid offence. "

Queue here for offensive description of the person who made that decision!!

" cupra"  wrote in message 
news:5spqeiF1ag79tU1@mid.individual.net...
> http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/7149525.stm?dynamic_vote=ON#vote_pogues
>
> "BBC Radio 1 has banned the word "faggot" from the Pogues' 1987 Christmas 
> hit Fairytale of New York to avoid offence. "

At the risk of sounding controversial here, I think on balance they were 
right. But the point's moot as they've now reversed the decision.

    Chris

In uk.media.radio.bbc-r1 on Tue, 18 Dec 2007, Chris Brown wrote :

>> 
>>http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/7149525.stm?dynamic_vote=O
>>N#vote_pogues
>>
>> "BBC Radio 1 has banned the word "faggot" from the Pogues' 1987 Christmas
>> hit Fairytale of New York to avoid offence. "
>
>At the risk of sounding controversial here, I think on balance they were
>right.

I think you're only the 2nd one to say that, after Peter Tatchell... :)

>But the point's moot as they've now reversed the decision.
>
As always, the act of censorship draws far more attention than whatever 
was being censored in the first place.
-- 
Paul 'Charts Fan' Hyett

In uk.media.radio.bbc-r1 on Tue, 18 Dec 2007, Chris Brown wrote :

>> 
>>http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/7149525.stm?dynamic_vote=O
>>N#vote_pogues
>>
>> "BBC Radio 1 has banned the word "faggot" from the Pogues' 1987 Christmas
>> hit Fairytale of New York to avoid offence. "
>
>At the risk of sounding controversial here, I think on balance they were
>right.

I don't see how pre-emptive censorship can be justified. That puts the 
decision in the hands of somebody who can only guess how someone else 
will react, and will frequently guess wrongly!

As the public reaction showed, people *do not* like being told what they 
can or cannot listen to! Also, there's the sticks & stones issue. If 
someone doesn't like the lyrics, then they should simply not listen to 
the song, rather than attempt to spoil it for everyone else who doesn't 
mind them.
-- 
Paul 'Charts Fan' Hyett

"Paul Hyett"  wrote in message
news:QFgo6vH5tMaHFwVN@blueyonder.co.uk...
> In uk.media.radio.bbc-r1 on Tue, 18 Dec 2007, Chris Brown wrote :
>
>>> http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/7149525.stm?dynamic_vote=O
>>>N#vote_pogues
>>>
>>> "BBC Radio 1 has banned the word "faggot" from the Pogues' 1987
>>> Christmas
>>> hit Fairytale of New York to avoid offence. "
>>
>>At the risk of sounding controversial here, I think on balance they were
>>right.
>
> I think you're only the 2nd one to say that, after Peter Tatchell... :)

I don't completely agree with him either - but we'll come to that in the 
other post.

>>But the point's moot as they've now reversed the decision.
>>
> As always, the act of censorship draws far more attention than whatever
> was being censored in the first place.

It did cross my mind, not entirely seriously, that this might have been a 
stunt to attract attention to the Pogues record and try to keep X-Factor off 
the top. In which case I wholeheartedly approve, obviously.

    Chris

"Paul Hyett"  wrote in message
news:qcH2MGEltVaHFwCF@blueyonder.co.uk...
> In uk.media.radio.bbc-r1 on Tue, 18 Dec 2007, Chris Brown wrote :
>
>>> http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/7149525.stm?dynamic_vote=O
>>>N#vote_pogues
>>>
>>> "BBC Radio 1 has banned the word "faggot" from the Pogues' 1987
>>> Christmas
>>> hit Fairytale of New York to avoid offence. "
>>
>>At the risk of sounding controversial here, I think on balance they were
>>right.
>
> I don't see how pre-emptive censorship can be justified. That puts the
> decision in the hands of somebody who can only guess how someone else will
> react, and will frequently guess wrongly!

We-ell, I don't think they really need to wonder about everything; there are 
certain words that clearly wouldn't be considered acceptable in daytime 
programming. Indeed both the BBC and Ofcom have researched this issue, at 
least in terms of words, so they're not flying blind.

> As the public reaction showed, people *do not* like being told what they
> can or cannot listen to! Also, there's the sticks & stones issue. If
> someone doesn't like the lyrics, then they should simply not listen to the
> song, rather than attempt to spoil it for everyone else who doesn't mind
> them.

That's fair enough when it comes to music being sold on CD (which is why, 
incidentally, I'm not entirely comfortable with the word "censorship" in 
this context) but obviously in broadcasting things have to be viewed 
slightly differently because people don't have the same amount of choice in 
the matter. I think there's a difference between the question of whether 
it's appropriate to use a word/phrase in a record and whether it's 
appropriate to play that out to a young radio audience. Radio 2 was playing 
the uncut version throughout.

    Chris

In uk.media.radio.bbc-r1 on Thu, 20 Dec 2007, Chris Brown wrote :
>
>"Paul Hyett"  wrote in message
>news:QFgo6vH5tMaHFwVN@blueyonder.co.uk...
>> In uk.media.radio.bbc-r1 on Tue, 18 Dec 2007, Chris Brown wrote :
>>
>>>> http://newsvote.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/7149525.stm?dynamic_vote=O
>>>>N#vote_pogues
>>>>
>>>> "BBC Radio 1 has banned the word "faggot" from the Pogues' 1987
>>>> Christmas
>>>> hit Fairytale of New York to avoid offence. "
>>>
>>>At the risk of sounding controversial here, I think on balance they were
>>>right.
>>
>> I think you're only the 2nd one to say that, after Peter Tatchell... :)
>
>I don't completely agree with him either - but we'll come to that in the
>other post.
>
>>>But the point's moot as they've now reversed the decision.
>>>
>> As always, the act of censorship draws far more attention than whatever
>> was being censored in the first place.
>
>It did cross my mind, not entirely seriously, that this might have been a
>stunt to attract attention to the Pogues record and try to keep X-Factor off
>the top. In which case I wholeheartedly approve, obviously.

 From the mids, it appears as if Mariah has peaked too early, just like 
last year - although the lack of a physical release might have a lot to 
do with that.
-- 
Paul 'Charts Fan' Hyett

In uk.media.radio.bbc-r1 on Thu, 20 Dec 2007, Chris Brown wrote :
>>>>
>>>> "BBC Radio 1 has banned the word "faggot" from the Pogues' 1987
>>>> Christmas
>>>> hit Fairytale of New York to avoid offence. "

[A decision quickly reversed]
>>>
>>>At the risk of sounding controversial here, I think on balance they were
>>>right.
>>
>> I don't see how pre-emptive censorship can be justified. That puts the
>> decision in the hands of somebody who can only guess how someone else will
>> react, and will frequently guess wrongly!
>
>We-ell, I don't think they really need to wonder about everything; there are
>certain words that clearly wouldn't be considered acceptable in daytime
>programming.

IMO context is important - if 'faggot' was aimed directly at a gay 
person in a derogatory manner, that's very different from its casual use 
in a song, especially one written before the current PC nonsense became 
so prevalent.

In the latter circumstances, I'd just tell the complainers to GET OVER 
IT!

>Indeed both the BBC and Ofcom have researched this issue, at
>least in terms of words, so they're not flying blind.

I wonder *how* they 'researched' it, though?

I wouldn't be at all surprised if they *only* asked minority groups, 
rather than the public generally...

My view is : if we don't have the right to risk giving offence, we don't 
have free speech at all - and losing *that* is far more serious than the 
alleged hurt feelings of a few faux-sensitive minorities!

In any case, given what he sings just before the 'faggot' line, hers 
seems a reasonable come-back. :)

The full lyrics :

http://www.lyricsfreak.com/p/pogues/fairytale+of+new+york_20109730.html
>
>> As the public reaction showed, people *do not* like being told what they
>> can or cannot listen to! Also, there's the sticks & stones issue. If
>> someone doesn't like the lyrics, then they should simply not listen to the
>> song, rather than attempt to spoil it for everyone else who doesn't mind
>> them.
>
>That's fair enough when it comes to music being sold on CD

Or download?

> (which is why,
>incidentally, I'm not entirely comfortable with the word "censorship" in
>this context) but obviously in broadcasting things have to be viewed
>slightly differently because people don't have the same amount of choice in
>the matter.

No-one forces them to listen to Radio 1...

In any case, they don't seem to worried about playing gangsta rap which, 
in glorifying criminal behaviour, surely has a far greater influence on 
the nations youth culture.

> I think there's a difference between the question of whether
>it's appropriate to use a word/phrase in a record and whether it's
>appropriate to play that out to a young radio audience. Radio 2 was playing
>the uncut version throughout.

The Sky TV channels are divided on this - some censor it, some don't.
-- 
Paul 'Charts Fan' Hyett

Second attempt here, after a hardware problem last time.

"Paul Hyett"  wrote in message
news:ht2kQ+Igo3aHFwBS@blueyonder.co.uk...
> In uk.media.radio.bbc-r1 on Thu, 20 Dec 2007, Chris Brown wrote :


>>>>> "BBC Radio 1 has banned the word "faggot" from the Pogues' 1987
>>>>> Christmas
>>>>> hit Fairytale of New York to avoid offence. "
>
> [A decision quickly reversed]
>>>>
>>>>At the risk of sounding controversial here, I think on balance they were
>>>>right.
>>>
>>> I don't see how pre-emptive censorship can be justified. That puts the
>>> decision in the hands of somebody who can only guess how someone else
>>> will
>>> react, and will frequently guess wrongly!
>>
>>We-ell, I don't think they really need to wonder about everything; there
>>are
>>certain words that clearly wouldn't be considered acceptable in daytime
>>programming.
>
> IMO context is important - if 'faggot' was aimed directly at a gay person
> in a derogatory manner, that's very different from its casual use in a
> song, especially one written before the current PC nonsense became so
> prevalent.

In general terms, I agree about the importance of context - but as I said 
for that very reason I don't have any problem with the word being in the 
song itself. I class that as a totally different question from when and 
whether it should be on air, and it concerns me a little that so few people 
acknowledge that.
The age of the record isn't really relevant to me in this context. I might 
take that sort of thing into account in the negative but that won't apply 
here. That said, somebody did text into R1 and describe it as a song 
"written in a different era" which makes me feel old.

>>Indeed both the BBC and Ofcom have researched this issue, at
>>least in terms of words, so they're not flying blind.
>
> I wonder *how* they 'researched' it, though?

Ofcom used focus groups, among other things.
You can read a full report on their website, which is quite interesting.

> I wouldn't be at all surprised if they *only* asked minority groups,
> rather than the public generally...

Only in the sense that everybody's part of a minority group somewhere.

> My view is : if we don't have the right to risk giving offence, we don't
> have free speech at all - and losing *that* is far more serious than the
> alleged hurt feelings of a few faux-sensitive minorities!

It would be a pretty extremist position to suggest that nothing should ever 
be forbidden anywhere though. I don't think - and neither do Ofcom - that 
there are any words that should be totally verboten but how and to whom 
they're played is a different matter.

> In any case, given what he sings just before the 'faggot' line, hers seems
> a reasonable come-back. :)

Absolutely. Although of course in a decision that was less publicised for 
whatever reason, they also obliterated the word "slut".

> The full lyrics :
>
> http://www.lyricsfreak.com/p/pogues/fairytale+of+new+york_20109730.html

I know what the lyrics are, but thanks.

>>> As the public reaction showed, people *do not* like being told what they
>>> can or cannot listen to! Also, there's the sticks & stones issue. If
>>> someone doesn't like the lyrics, then they should simply not listen to
>>> the
>>> song, rather than attempt to spoil it for everyone else who doesn't mind
>>> them.
>>
>>That's fair enough when it comes to music being sold on CD
>
> Or download?

Er, yes and on vinyl and cassette for that matter.

>> (which is why,
>>incidentally, I'm not entirely comfortable with the word "censorship" in
>>this context) but obviously in broadcasting things have to be viewed
>>slightly differently because people don't have the same amount of choice
>>in
>>the matter.
>
> No-one forces them to listen to Radio 1...

I'm not sure that's entirely true - people are more likely to get radio 
forced on them than television after all.
The main point I wanted to make was that people couldn't make as informed a 
choice where music radio was concerned, because it's not as programme-based 
and people dip into it.

> In any case, they don't seem to worried about playing gangsta rap which,
> in glorifying criminal behaviour, surely has a far greater influence on
> the nations youth culture.

Even if that's true - which is debatable - there's an obvious distinction 
between language and subject matter.

>> I think there's a difference between the question of whether
>>it's appropriate to use a word/phrase in a record and whether it's
>>appropriate to play that out to a young radio audience. Radio 2 was
>>playing
>>the uncut version throughout.
>
> The Sky TV channels are divided on this - some censor it, some don't.

Exactly.

    Chris

In uk.media.radio.bbc-r1 on Sat, 22 Dec 2007, Chris Brown wrote :

>>>there
>>>are
>>>certain words that clearly wouldn't be considered acceptable in daytime
>>>programming.
>>
>> IMO context is important - if 'faggot' was aimed directly at a gay person
>> in a derogatory manner, that's very different from its casual use in a
>> song, especially one written before the current PC nonsense became so
>> prevalent.
>
>In general terms, I agree about the importance of context - but as I said
>for that very reason I don't have any problem with the word being in the
>song itself. I class that as a totally different question from when and
>whether it should be on air, and it concerns me a little that so few people
>acknowledge that.

To me, that is a promising sign that people aren't as PC-brainwashed as 
I feared.

>The age of the record isn't really relevant to me in this context. I might
>take that sort of thing into account in the negative but that won't apply
>here. That said, somebody did text into R1 and describe it as a song
>"written in a different era"

Didn't Kirsty MacColl's mother actually contact R1, saying something 
along those lines?

>which makes me feel old.

It's even worse for me, as I'm older still. :)
>
>> My view is : if we don't have the right to risk giving offence, we don't
>> have free speech at all - and losing *that* is far more serious than the
>> alleged hurt feelings of a few faux-sensitive minorities!
>
>It would be a pretty extremist position to suggest that nothing should ever
>be forbidden anywhere though.

My position is that it should be up to the parents/guardians of minors 
to decide what they watch/listen to, *not* the gov't, or other 
authority! :(
>
>> In any case, given what he sings just before the 'faggot' line, hers seems
>> a reasonable come-back. :)
>
>Absolutely. Although of course in a decision that was less publicised for
>whatever reason, they also obliterated the word "slut".

Which means the context was removed, not just the words - which is even 
worse.
>
>> The full lyrics :
>>
>> http://www.lyricsfreak.com/p/pogues/fairytale+of+new+york_20109730.html
>
>I know what the lyrics are, but thanks.

But not everyone might.
>>
>> No-one forces them to listen to Radio 1...
>
>I'm not sure that's entirely true - people are more likely to get radio
>forced on them than television after all.

I assume you are referring to the workplace?

At least in that situation, the audience will almost certainly be over 
18, and therefore far less susceptible to being influenced negatively by 
lyrical content.
>
>> In any case, they don't seem to worried about playing gangsta rap which,
>> in glorifying criminal behaviour, surely has a far greater influence on
>> the nations youth culture.
>
>Even if that's true - which is debatable - there's an obvious distinction
>between language and subject matter.

Even so, I doubt hearing the word 'faggot' in a Xmas song is likely to 
make someone go out and bomb a gay bar... :)
>
>>> I think there's a difference between the question of whether
>>>it's appropriate to use a word/phrase in a record and whether it's
>>>appropriate to play that out to a young radio audience. Radio 2 was
>>>playing
>>>the uncut version throughout.
>>
>> The Sky TV channels are divided on this - some censor it, some don't.
>
>Exactly.

Which proves my point that there is disagreement over whether it is 
offensive - and therefore the only sensible position is that it is not.

The opposite position would be to assume *anything* might be offensive, 
which is clearly absurd, since then nobody would risk saying anything!
-- 
Paul 'Charts Fan' Hyett