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date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 21:41:42 +0100,    group: uk.media.animation.anime        back       
God Only Knows: The Viewing Order of Haruhi Suzumiya. (review)   
There is a scene in Neal Stephensons excellent novel Cryptonomicon 
where the main character, Randy, wishes to dive to a sunken submarine a 
couple of hundred feet down on the sea floor. His companion, an ex-U.S. 
Navy commando, reminds Randy that he is very welcome to do so, but first 
he must file a dive plan. Randy believes that this should not take long 
to work out, as any idiot on a cruise tour can strap a couple of SCUBA 
tanks to their back and go look at the pretty fishes.
    What follows is several paragraphs describing the gradual shattering 
of Randys illusions; that in order to come up with even a *bad* dive 
plan that would leave him drowned, suffocated, twisted into interesting 
shapes by the bends and so compressed by pressure that his remains could 
easily fit into even a small styrofoam cup, several hours of hugely 
technical donkey work is required.

    I was reminded of this scene recently when, in an effort to escape 
out of the retro anime binge I've been on and get round to watching 
something made before the year Dawn of Time, B.E. [1], I picked up the 
DVD set of The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya and told a friend about it. 
His almost immediate response was: "Which order are you watching them 
in?" [2]

    Huh?

    It turns out that, unlike other anime, TMoHS does not follow 
conventional viewing procedure. A glance at the Wikipedia article my 
friend linked to reveals that there are are at least three different 
sequences in which to watch it, the descriptions of which being the kind 
of thing that makes hardened theoretical mathematicians start eating 
chalk and deciding to do something easier, like Fermats last theorem.

    In short, I was going to need a dive plan myself before I could even 
contemplate watching TMoHS.

    Some time later and with a printout from Wikipedia in hand, I 
finally settled down to watch this already incredibly complicated series 
[3]. According to the plan, I should start with episode 11. Or episode 
1. Or possibly episode n, where n is a free curve on the 
Heisenberg-Schroedinger diagram.

    This turned out to be a depiction of a home-made SF film (with a 
TV-control twitching compressed screen ratio) starring some of the shows 
characters, with one important omission. Having recently acquired a 
suitable action figure for a mate, I thought I knew what the titular 
character looked like, and it wasn't like anyone I was watching. I mean, 
unless its that girl in the bunny outfit, very heavily disguised.
    I continued to watch, even though as a general rule, things did not 
make much sense. This apparently was the first episode broadcast in 
Japan, and somehow the series didn't seem to die at birth, so obviously 
there was something in it. There were definite hints that not all might 
be as it first appeared...

    Onto episode 2! Or episode 1! Gawd, mere numerology wasn't designed 
to cope with this.

    This started with a voice-over from Kyon, a student who seemed to be 
a main character. He was confessing to having loved anime, manga, 
sci-fi, fantasy when he was young. Or put another way, he had been a bit 
of an otaku, or at least a bit of a geek. He revealed how, as he grew 
older, the real world became more vital and he gradually lost interest. 
  And remained  that way, until a new student transferred into his class.

    Kyons attention is caught very quickly by the fact that Haruhi 
Suzumiya is beautiful. She is also intelligent, talented and athletic. 
However, his school friends quickly put out warning signals. Some of 
them know her of old. And the message is: Suzumiya is not like other 
girls. For one thing, she proclaims the she is not interested in "normal 
humans". She joins every club in school in a week. The leaves them. All 
of them. And she has a different hairstyle for every day. And shes a 
serial dater, the shortest of which lasted exactly five minutes. And 
shes *very much* into espers and aliens and other mysteries.

    Somehow, Kyon manages to start a conversation with this creature. 
And one day, out of the blue and in the middle of class, Suzumiya 
declares she has a solution - she will form her own school club! And of 
course, Kyon will be in it!

    Their first challenge is to find some premises. They do this by 
staging a coup against the Literature Club. This proves straightforward, 
as the only remaining member is a book-wormish Rei-a-like who reacts to 
this revolution by calmly turning the page and carrying on reading [4]. 
Their next problem is membership, which Suzumiya solves by virtually 
kidnapping another girl (bunny-girl from episode "X, The Unknown")  on 
the grounds she has a large bust and will therefore attract even more 
members.

    And then its onto the previews!

    This is my sum total of TMoHS viewing so far. Its a series to which 
the word "cult" seems suitable; something that has driven people to post 
acoustic versions of anthem "God Only Knows" on YouTube and make 
stop-motion shorts using Gundam figures of the ending credits.  And I 
have a good feeling about  it. I have no idea where it will be going, or 
why Suzumiya is melancholic but its clear from the hints dropped theres 
obviously a lot more to happen. And it uses words like "esper". I didn't 
think any anime made after 1989 used the word "esper" anymore. I think 
I'm going to like this, and I'm looking forward to seeing the rest of 
the series.

    Before that, though - if you'll excuse me, I need to consult my dive 
plan...

    [1] Before Evangelion.

    [2] After the usual "You bought something without the word "Gundam" 
in the title?!" shock etc.

    [3] Actually, it was even harder than that. First I had to get into 
the box, which almost uniquely in my box-set experience, opened like a 
pack of cards. Then I had to remove the security packaging without also 
removing some finger joints. Then I decided that the PC DVD drive was 
showing signs of playing up, so I would go downstairs to watch it. After 
making the necessary adjustments to AV settings etc, I finally opened 
the DVD player tray. At which point I remembered that I'd left the 
actual disc in the PC upstairs. There are days when I positively miss 
only having to worry about Dub vs Sub.

    [4] Someone on the creative side is obviously a *true* reader.

-- 
* "Attack!"     * justin@briareos.demon.co.uk *
* "Attack who?" *                             *
* "EVERYONE!"   *                             *
  - Galvatron    *   Decepticon Decoy Target   *
date: Fri, 11 Jul 2008 21:41:42 +0100   author:   Justin Palmer

Re: God Only Knows: The Viewing Order of Haruhi Suzumiya. (review)   
On Fri, 11 Jul 2008 21:41:42 +0100, Justin Palmer
 wrote:

<snip>

>    Their first challenge is to find some premises. They do this by 
>staging a coup against the Literature Club. This proves straightforward, 
>as the only remaining member is a book-wormish Rei-a-like who reacts to 
>this revolution by calmly turning the page and carrying on reading [4]. 
>Their next problem is membership, which Suzumiya solves by virtually 
>kidnapping another girl (bunny-girl from episode "X, The Unknown")  on 
>the grounds she has a large bust and will therefore attract even more 
>members.

Did you notice that busty-girl... er, bunny-girl put up a fight about
being grabbed until she spotted book-girl in the room, at which point
she *immediately* agreed to join?  This is important.

(Having seen the entire (first) series, I must say that Yuki and Mikuru
are the two most likeable characters in the show.  Kyon's a close third.
Haruhi... well, let's just say she easily takes the title of "most
obnoxious title character you're supposed to like" from Nadia, and that
takes a lot of work...)

<snip>

>    [4] Someone on the creative side is obviously a *true* reader.

Well... maybe.  She's no Yomiko, if that's what you were thinking.

-- 
Rob Kelk <http://robkelk.ottawa-anime.org/> e-mail: s/deadspam/gmail/
      "Read Or Die: not so much a title as a way of life."
                                   - Justin Palmer, 6 June 2007
date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 02:43:08 GMT   author:   (Rob Kelk)

Re: God Only Knows: The Viewing Order of Haruhi Suzumiya. (review)   
Justin Palmer(justin@briareos.demon.co.uk) added

<snip>
>     I was reminded of this scene recently when, in an effort to 
> escape out of the retro anime binge I've been on 

Nothing wrong with retro anime binges, there was some good series back then
that deserve not to be forgotten.  Of course it's always good to watch some new
stuff as well.

> and get round to watching something made before the year Dawn of
> Time, B.E. [1], I picked up the DVD set of The Melancholy of Haruhi
> Suzumiya 

Ah, yes. I've been meaning to get this series for /ages/ but I've been holding
out in the hope that it would be released as a box set sometime. Of course it's
typical that after months of their being nothing being release that I want, it
finally arrives in the same month as another box set and single disk that I
also want!

> and told a friend about it. His almost immediate response was: "Which 
> order are you watching them in?" [2]
> 
>     Huh?

Being lazy, I'll watch it in the order the episodes are on the disk. ^_^
 
>     It turns out that, unlike other anime, TMoHS does not follow 
> conventional viewing procedure. A glance at the Wikipedia article 
> my friend linked to reveals that there are are at least three 
> different sequences in which to watch it,

*Three* I knew there were two, but I'd not heard of a third sequence!

<large snip>
> [2] After the usual "You bought something without the word 
> "Gundam" in the title?!" shock etc.

Yes, that did cause a bit of a shock. ^_^


== Peter ==
-----------------------------------------------------
"Of all the books I have ever read, 
this was the greatest one."
(Miaka Yuki: Fushigi Yugi.)
date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 08:14 +0100 (BST)   author:   (Peter Boulter)

Re: God Only Knows: The Viewing Order of Haruhi Suzumiya. (review)   
Rob Kelk wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Jul 2008 21:41:42 +0100, Justin Palmer
>  wrote:
> 
> <snip>
> 
>>    Their first challenge is to find some premises. They do this by 
>> staging a coup against the Literature Club. This proves straightforward, 
>> as the only remaining member is a book-wormish Rei-a-like who reacts to 
>> this revolution by calmly turning the page and carrying on reading [4]. 
>> Their next problem is membership, which Suzumiya solves by virtually 
>> kidnapping another girl (bunny-girl from episode "X, The Unknown")  on 
>> the grounds she has a large bust and will therefore attract even more 
>> members.
> 
> Did you notice that busty-girl... er, bunny-girl put up a fight about
> being grabbed until she spotted book-girl in the room, at which point
> she *immediately* agreed to join?  This is important.
> 
	Er... if I lie and say "yes" will I sound observant?

	After watching episode 3.140978654214905865 in the sequence it is 
becoming apparent that these two do indeed seem to have prior knowledge.

(snip)
>>    [4] Someone on the creative side is obviously a *true* reader.
> 
> Well... maybe.  She's no Yomiko, if that's what you were thinking.
> 
	No, but bookworm-Rei has a) excellent taste and b) the true readers 
ability to ignore everything going on beyond the confines of the book. ^_^

-- 
* "Attack!"     * justin@briareos.demon.co.uk *
* "Attack who?" *                             *
* "EVERYONE!"   *                             *
  - Galvatron    *   Decepticon Decoy Target   *
date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 10:03:14 +0100   author:   Justin Palmer

Re: God Only Knows: The Viewing Order of Haruhi Suzumiya. (review)   
Peter Boulter wrote:
> Justin Palmer(justin@briareos.demon.co.uk) added
> 
> <snip>
>>     I was reminded of this scene recently when, in an effort to 
>> escape out of the retro anime binge I've been on 
> 
> Nothing wrong with retro anime binges, there was some good series back then
> that deserve not to be forgotten.  Of course it's always good to watch some new
> stuff as well.
> 
	Always true... but... two years? ^_^

>> and get round to watching something made before the year Dawn of
>> Time, B.E. [1], I picked up the DVD set of The Melancholy of Haruhi
>> Suzumiya 
> 
> Ah, yes. I've been meaning to get this series for /ages/ but I've been holding
> out in the hope that it would be released as a box set sometime. Of course it's
> typical that after months of their being nothing being release that I want, it
> finally arrives in the same month as another box set and single disk that I
> also want!
> 
	Tell me about it, I currently have a viewing queue thats longer than 
the Great Wall of China...!

>> and told a friend about it. His almost immediate response was: "Which 
>> order are you watching them in?" [2]
>>
>>     Huh?
> 
> Being lazy, I'll watch it in the order the episodes are on the disk. ^_^
>  
	No, you fool! You've doomed us all! Do you hear me? DOOMED US ALL!

>>     It turns out that, unlike other anime, TMoHS does not follow 
>> conventional viewing procedure. A glance at the Wikipedia article 
>> my friend linked to reveals that there are are at least three 
>> different sequences in which to watch it,
> 
> *Three* I knew there were two, but I'd not heard of a third sequence!
> 
	Chronological, DVD, Broadcast and something based on the indivisibility 
of prime numbers.

> <large snip>
>> [2] After the usual "You bought something without the word 
>> "Gundam" in the title?!" shock etc.
> 
> Yes, that did cause a bit of a shock. ^_^

	Etc, etc... ^_^


-- 
* "Attack!"     * justin@briareos.demon.co.uk *
* "Attack who?" *                             *
* "EVERYONE!"   *                             *
  - Galvatron    *   Decepticon Decoy Target   *
date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 10:05:36 +0100   author:   Justin Palmer

Re: God Only Knows: The Viewing Order of Haruhi Suzumiya. (review)   
In message , Rob Kelk
 writes

>
>Well... maybe.  She's no Yomiko, if that's what you were thinking.

 Dunno about that -- the scene later in the series where she is
introduced to the concept of a public library is quite bibliophilic.
-- 
 To reply, my gmail address is nojay1              Robert Sneddon
date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 12:16:37 +0100   author:   Robert Sneddon

Re: God Only Knows: The Viewing Order of Haruhi Suzumiya. (review)   
While strolling carefully through the minefield that is Usenet, on
Sat, 12 Jul 2008 12:16:37 +0100, Robert Sneddon
 wrote:

>In message , Rob Kelk
> writes
>
>>
>>Well... maybe.  She's no Yomiko, if that's what you were thinking.
>
> Dunno about that -- the scene later in the series where she is
>introduced to the concept of a public library is quite bibliophilic.

THere is a huge gulf of difference between being "quite bibliophilic"
and being Yomiko, the bibliophile pinup girl :)
--
Tsunami
If at first you don't succeed, give up skydiving!
tsunami@nospam.jyurai.co.uk
date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 16:43:15 +0100   author:   Tsunami

Re: God Only Knows: The Viewing Order of Haruhi Suzumiya. (review)   
On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 16:43:15 +0100, Tsunami 
wrote:

>While strolling carefully through the minefield that is Usenet, on
>Sat, 12 Jul 2008 12:16:37 +0100, Robert Sneddon
> wrote:
>
>>In message , Rob Kelk
>> writes
>>
>>>
>>>Well... maybe.  She's no Yomiko, if that's what you were thinking.
>>
>> Dunno about that -- the scene later in the series where she is
>>introduced to the concept of a public library is quite bibliophilic.
>
>THere is a huge gulf of difference between being "quite bibliophilic"
>and being Yomiko, the bibliophile pinup girl :)

Exactly.  After all, Yuki only checked out *one* book...

-- 
Rob Kelk <http://robkelk.ottawa-anime.org/> e-mail: s/deadspam/gmail/
"I'm *not* a kid!  Nyyyeaaah!"  - Skuld (in "Oh My Goddess!" OAV #3)
"When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear
of childishness and the desire to be very grown-up."    - C.S. Lewis
date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 17:13:15 GMT   author:   (Rob Kelk)

Re: God Only Knows: The Viewing Order of Haruhi Suzumiya. (review)   
On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 10:05:36 +0100, Justin Palmer
 wrote:

>Peter Boulter wrote:
>> Justin Palmer(justin@briareos.demon.co.uk) added
>> 
>> <snip>
>>>     I was reminded of this scene recently when, in an effort to 
>>> escape out of the retro anime binge I've been on 
>> 
>> Nothing wrong with retro anime binges, there was some good series back then
>> that deserve not to be forgotten.  Of course it's always good to watch some new
>> stuff as well.
>> 
>	Always true... but... two years? ^_^
>
>>> and get round to watching something made before the year Dawn of
>>> Time, B.E. [1], I picked up the DVD set of The Melancholy of Haruhi
>>> Suzumiya 
>> 
>> Ah, yes. I've been meaning to get this series for /ages/ but I've been holding
>> out in the hope that it would be released as a box set sometime. Of course it's
>> typical that after months of their being nothing being release that I want, it
>> finally arrives in the same month as another box set and single disk that I
>> also want!
>> 
>	Tell me about it, I currently have a viewing queue thats longer than 
>the Great Wall of China...!
>
>>> and told a friend about it. His almost immediate response was: "Which 
>>> order are you watching them in?" [2]
>>>
>>>     Huh?
>> 
>> Being lazy, I'll watch it in the order the episodes are on the disk. ^_^
>>  
>	No, you fool! You've doomed us all! Do you hear me? DOOMED US ALL!
>
>>>     It turns out that, unlike other anime, TMoHS does not follow 
>>> conventional viewing procedure. A glance at the Wikipedia article 
>>> my friend linked to reveals that there are are at least three 
>>> different sequences in which to watch it,
>> 
>> *Three* I knew there were two, but I'd not heard of a third sequence!
>> 
>	Chronological, DVD, Broadcast and something based on the indivisibility 
>of prime numbers.

In case you're interested...  The broadcast order was episodes 11, 1, 2,
7, 3, 9, 8, 10, 14, 4, 13, 12, 5, and 6.  The TV trailers have Haruhi
and Kyon arguing about what number to give the next episode, Kyon
numbering them in broadcast order so that episode 11 is his episode 1.

Episode 12 is the 12th episode in broadcast, story, *and* DVD order,
BTW.

-- 
Rob Kelk <http://robkelk.ottawa-anime.org/> e-mail: s/deadspam/gmail/
"I'm *not* a kid!  Nyyyeaaah!"  - Skuld (in "Oh My Goddess!" OAV #3)
"When I became a man, I put away childish things, including the fear
of childishness and the desire to be very grown-up."    - C.S. Lewis
date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 17:25:15 GMT   author:   (Rob Kelk)

Re: God Only Knows: The Viewing Order of Haruhi Suzumiya. (review)   
In message , Rob Kelk
 writes

>Exactly.  After all, Yuki only checked out *one* book...

 Yes, but now she knows where they all live. Bwhahahaha!
-- 
 To reply, my gmail address is nojay1              Robert Sneddon
date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 18:40:02 +0100   author:   Robert Sneddon

Re: God Only Knows: The Viewing Order of Haruhi Suzumiya. (review)   
Robert Sneddon wrote:
> In message , Rob Kelk
>  writes
> 
>> Exactly.  After all, Yuki only checked out *one* book...
> 
>  Yes, but now she knows where they all live. Bwhahahaha!

	Except the first books of trilogies. Which my library never seems to have.

-- 
* "Attack!"     * justin@briareos.demon.co.uk *
* "Attack who?" *                             *
* "EVERYONE!"   *                             *
  - Galvatron    *   Decepticon Decoy Target   *
date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 21:24:09 +0100   author:   Justin Palmer

Re: God Only Knows: The Viewing Order of Haruhi Suzumiya. (review)   
On Fri, 11 Jul 2008 21:41:42 +0100, Justin Palmer
 mangled uncounted electrons thus:

>    There is a scene in Neal Stephensons excellent novel Cryptonomicon 
>where the main character, Randy, wishes to dive to a sunken submarine a 
>couple of hundred feet down on the sea floor. His companion, an ex-U.S. 
>Navy commando, reminds Randy that he is very welcome to do so, but first 
>he must file a dive plan. Randy believes that this should not take long 
>to work out, as any idiot on a cruise tour can strap a couple of SCUBA 
>tanks to their back and go look at the pretty fishes.
>    What follows is several paragraphs describing the gradual shattering 
>of Randys illusions; that in order to come up with even a *bad* dive 
>plan that would leave him drowned, suffocated, twisted into interesting 
>shapes by the bends and so compressed by pressure that his remains could 
>easily fit into even a small styrofoam cup, several hours of hugely 
>technical donkey work is required.
>
>    I was reminded of this scene recently when, in an effort to escape 
>out of the retro anime binge I've been on and get round to watching 
>something made before the year Dawn of Time, B.E. [1], I picked up the 
>DVD set of The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya and told a friend about it. 
>His almost immediate response was: "Which order are you watching them 
>in?" [2]

Bwahahahahaha...

>    Huh?

Bwahahahahaha...  (*1)

(*1) That's actually a slightly more maniacal laugh than the
first one...  ^_-

>    It turns out that, unlike other anime, TMoHS does not follow 
>conventional viewing procedure. A glance at the Wikipedia article my 
>friend linked to reveals that there are are at least three different 
>sequences in which to watch it, the descriptions of which being the kind 
>of thing that makes hardened theoretical mathematicians start eating 
>chalk and deciding to do something easier, like Fermats last theorem.
>
>    In short, I was going to need a dive plan myself before I could even 
>contemplate watching TMoHS.

Bwahaha - Oh, well, you get the message...

>    Some time later and with a printout from Wikipedia in hand, I 
>finally settled down to watch this already incredibly complicated series 
>[3]. According to the plan, I should start with episode 11. Or episode 
>1. Or possibly episode n, where n is a free curve on the 
>Heisenberg-Schroedinger diagram.

Just put the cat back in the box...

>    This turned out to be a depiction of a home-made SF film (with a 
>TV-control twitching compressed screen ratio) starring some of the shows 
>characters, with one important omission. Having recently acquired a 
>suitable action figure for a mate, I thought I knew what the titular 
>character looked like, and it wasn't like anyone I was watching. I mean, 
>unless its that girl in the bunny outfit, very heavily disguised.
>    I continued to watch, even though as a general rule, things did not 
>make much sense.

If it had made sense to you at first viewing I'd be *seriously*
worried about your mental health...  ^_^

Of course if it makes sense later I'd still be worried...  ^_^
^_^  ^_^

>This apparently was the first episode broadcast in 
>Japan, and somehow the series didn't seem to die at birth, so obviously 
>there was something in it. There were definite hints that not all might 
>be as it first appeared...

Well, that at least is certainly true!

<snip actual plot>

>    This is my sum total of TMoHS viewing so far. Its a series to which 
>the word "cult" seems suitable; something that has driven people to post 
>acoustic versions of anthem "God Only Knows" on YouTube and make 
>stop-motion shorts using Gundam figures of the ending credits.  And I 
>have a good feeling about  it. I have no idea where it will be going, or 
>why Suzumiya is melancholic but its clear from the hints dropped theres 
>obviously a lot more to happen. And it uses words like "esper". I didn't 
>think any anime made after 1989 used the word "esper" anymore. I think 
>I'm going to like this, and I'm looking forward to seeing the rest of 
>the series.

I think this is one of the funniest, most *different* series I've
seen in years. Not knowing any better I watched it in the
original order, which did rather confuse me, but it didn't take
long for me to catch on to what was going on. I was pretty much
sure what was going on by the time I'd watched 9 or 10
episodes...  *^_^*

And it has the most gorgeous character designs since Sadamoto's
work on Evangelion - and unlike Eva, the designs aren't wasted on
a cr*p story. (*2)

(*2) Opinions about Eva are of course my own. I know that I'm
*right*, of course, but still...  ¬_¬

<snip>

Martin D. Pay
Actually, Lucky Star is probably *funnier*, albeit in a more
conventional way...
date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 22:49:04 +0100   author:   Martin D. Pay

Re: God Only Knows: The Viewing Order of Haruhi Suzumiya. (review)   
On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 02:43:08 GMT, robkelk@deadspam.com (Rob Kelk)
mangled uncounted electrons thus:

>On Fri, 11 Jul 2008 21:41:42 +0100, Justin Palmer
> wrote:
>
><snip>
>
>>    Their first challenge is to find some premises. They do this by 
>>staging a coup against the Literature Club. This proves straightforward, 
>>as the only remaining member is a book-wormish Rei-a-like who reacts to 
>>this revolution by calmly turning the page and carrying on reading [4]. 
>>Their next problem is membership, which Suzumiya solves by virtually 
>>kidnapping another girl (bunny-girl from episode "X, The Unknown")  on 
>>the grounds she has a large bust and will therefore attract even more 
>>members.
>
>Did you notice that busty-girl... er, bunny-girl put up a fight about
>being grabbed until she spotted book-girl in the room, at which point
>she *immediately* agreed to join?  This is important.
>
>(Having seen the entire (first) series, I must say that Yuki and Mikuru
>are the two most likeable characters in the show.  Kyon's a close third.
>Haruhi... well, let's just say she easily takes the title of "most
>obnoxious title character you're supposed to like" from Nadia, and that
>takes a lot of work...)

Actually I think Kyon is something of a cypher, which I think is
the point. As for Haruhi... well, I have to disagree with you. I
think she's terrific

<snip>

Martin D. Pay
Itsuki is the *really* annoying character, IMO...
date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 22:53:49 +0100   author:   Martin D. Pay

Re: God Only Knows: The Viewing Order of Haruhi Suzumiya. (review)   
On Sat, 12 Jul 2008 17:25:15 GMT, robkelk@deadspam.com (Rob Kelk)
mangled uncounted electrons thus:

<snip>

>In case you're interested...  The broadcast order was episodes 11, 1, 2,
>7, 3, 9, 8, 10, 14, 4, 13, 12, 5, and 6.  The TV trailers have Haruhi
>and Kyon arguing about what number to give the next episode, Kyon
>numbering them in broadcast order so that episode 11 is his episode 1.
>
>Episode 12 is the 12th episode in broadcast, story, *and* DVD order,
>BTW.

And that fact *has* to be significant. Somehow. Somewhen.

Martin D. Pay
Of course that doesn't explain Season 2...  @_@
date: Sat, 12 Jul 2008 22:55:56 +0100   author:   Martin D. Pay

Re: God Only Knows: The Viewing Order of Haruhi Suzumiya. (review)   
In message , Martin D. Pay
 writes

>Actually I think Kyon is something of a cypher, which I think is
>the point.

 He's Everyman, sort of, a regular guy caught up in an irregular world.

> As for Haruhi... well, I have to disagree with you. I
>think she's terrific

 Well, she terrified me.
-- 
 To reply, my gmail address is nojay1              Robert Sneddon
date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 00:41:33 +0100   author:   Robert Sneddon

Re: God Only Knows: The Viewing Order of Haruhi Suzumiya. (review)   
Martin D. Pay wrote:
> On Fri, 11 Jul 2008 21:41:42 +0100, Justin Palmer
>  mangled uncounted electrons thus:
> 
>>    There is a scene in Neal Stephensons excellent novel Cryptonomicon 
>> where the main character, Randy, wishes to dive to a sunken submarine a 
>> couple of hundred feet down on the sea floor. 
(snip)
>>    What follows is several paragraphs describing the gradual shattering 
>> of Randys illusions; that in order to come up with even a *bad* dive 
>> plan that would leave him drowned, suffocated, twisted into interesting 
>> shapes by the bends and so compressed by pressure that his remains could 
>> easily fit into even a small styrofoam cup, several hours of hugely 
>> technical donkey work is required.
>>
>>    I was reminded of this scene recently when, in an effort to escape 
>> out of the retro anime binge I've been on and get round to watching 
>> something made before the year Dawn of Time, B.E. [1], I picked up the 
>> DVD set of The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya and told a friend about it. 
>> His almost immediate response was: "Which order are you watching them 
>> in?" [2]
> 
> Bwahahahahaha...
> 
	Shes eating her ear! She... is... eating... her... ear!

	Ahem.

>>    Huh?
> 
> Bwahahahahaha...  (*1)
> 
> (*1) That's actually a slightly more maniacal laugh than the
> first one...  ^_-
> 
	Were you stroking the cat? Please tell me you're not stroking the cat...

>>    It turns out that, unlike other anime, TMoHS does not follow 
>> conventional viewing procedure. 
(snip)

>>
>>    In short, I was going to need a dive plan myself before I could even 
>> contemplate watching TMoHS.
> 
> Bwahaha - Oh, well, you get the message...
>
	I've found that I also need a pen. Two pens. One for marking off the 
episodes I've seen, to prevent further ordering confusion, and one that 
fires rocket-propelled explosive darts to deal with Martins outbreak of 
world domination.

(snip)

  According to the plan, I should start with episode 11. Or episode
>> 1. Or possibly episode n, where n is a free curve on the 
>> Heisenberg-Schroedinger diagram.
> 
> Just put the cat back in the box...
> 
	I will, as soon as the bleeding stops.

(snip)

>>    I continued to watch, even though as a general rule, things did not 
>> make much sense.
> 
> If it had made sense to you at first viewing I'd be *seriously*
> worried about your mental health...  ^_^
>
	You're the one laughing manically!

> Of course if it makes sense later I'd still be worried...  ^_^
> ^_^  ^_^
> 
	I'm beginning to gleam that sense is not a word that is going to apply
much.

>> This apparently was the first episode broadcast in 
>> Japan, and somehow the series didn't seem to die at birth, so obviously 
>> there was something in it. There were definite hints that not all might 
>> be as it first appeared...
> 
> Well, that at least is certainly true!
> 
	Miss Asahina? Next time, try "Wibbley-wobbley timey-wimey stuff". 
Apparently others in similar situations have found it helpful.

> <snip actual plot>
> 
	Okay, yes, "review" was a bit too strong a word. It was more "My
impressions" and "I've really got to gripe about this ordering somewhere
  or my brain will go fizzle-POP!".

>>    This is my sum total of TMoHS viewing so far. Its a series to which 
>> the word "cult" seems suitable; something that has driven people to post 
>> acoustic versions of anthem "God Only Knows" on YouTube and make 
>> stop-motion shorts using Gundam figures of the ending credits.  And I 
>> have a good feeling about  it. 
(snip)
> I think this is one of the funniest, most *different* series I've
> seen in years. Not knowing any better I watched it in the
> original order, which did rather confuse me, but it didn't take
> long for me to catch on to what was going on. I was pretty much
> sure what was going on by the time I'd watched 9 or 10
> episodes...  *^_^*
> 
	In which order? ^_^ My feeling so far is that it is either going to be 
the cleverest little anime I've seen for a long time, or a case of
"Okay, who let Anno have creative control for the movie then?".

> And it has the most gorgeous character designs since Sadamoto's
> work on Evangelion - and unlike Eva, the designs aren't wasted on
> a cr*p story. (*2)
> 
	I do like the chara designs, but you're talking to the wrong type of 
person. ^_^

> (*2) Opinions about Eva are of course my own. I know that I'm
> *right*, of course, but still...  ¬_¬
>
	Of course you are, Martin. Now if you'd just like to examine my pen... ^_^

(snip)

-- 
* "Attack!"     * justin@briareos.demon.co.uk *
* "Attack who?" *                             *
* "EVERYONE!"   *                             *
  - Galvatron    *   Decepticon Decoy Target   *
date: Sun, 13 Jul 2008 12:04:04 +0100   author:   Justin Palmer

Re: God Only Knows: The Viewing Order of Haruhi Suzumiya. (review)   
Justin Palmer  wrote:

>    Some time later and with a printout from Wikipedia in hand, I 
> finally settled down to watch this already incredibly complicated series 
> [3]. According to the plan, I should start with episode 11. Or episode 
> 1. Or possibly episode n, where n is a free curve on the 
> Heisenberg-Schroedinger diagram.

The two main orderings are known as Haruhi order and Kyon order.

Where it gets really confusing is not the order so much as which numbering 
system you use! Originally everyone numbered them in broadcast sequence for 
obvious reasons (this is also the Kyon order), so Kyon order is thus 1, 2, 
3, ... 14, whilst Haruhi order is 11, 1, 2, .... 06. But then the DVDs came 
out in Haruhi order, so under that numbering system Kyon order becomes 11, 
1, 2, ... 6 whilst Haruhi order is now 1, 2, 3 ... 14!

Personally I think ep. 11 (or is it 1) was a lousy place to start since 
it's basically a spoof episode where the joke quickly wears thin, and I 
know it put a lot of people off since they gave up before the closing 
credits where we finally get a momentary taste of the real animation style 
and of Haruhi herself. 

The real first episode OTOH is a truly excellent first episode by any 
standards, with the cool blue monochrome opening which bursts into full 
colour as we lay eyes on Haruhi for the first time, and the rapid unfolding 
of Haruhi & Kyon's chalk & cheese relationship. I love how Kyon says to us 
that he's not remotely interested in Haruhi whilst at the same time he 
obviously can't take his eyes off her, even craning out of the window to 
watch her. His narration is full of duplicity as well as cynicism, moreover 
in a device copied from the novels it's not always even clear when he's 
talking and when he's thinking, since sometimes Haruhi or someone responds 
to what seemed to be one of his thoughts (in the novel, some of his speech 
isn't in quote marks so you think it's just his narration until another 
character answers him.)
date: 13 Jul 2008 14:26:30 GMT   author:   Wasabi lid

Re: God Only Knows: The Viewing Order of Haruhi Suzumiya. (review)   
Justin Palmer wrote:

(snip)
>    I was reminded of this scene recently when, in an effort to escape 
> out of the retro anime binge I've been on and get round to watching 
> something made before the year Dawn of Time, B.E. [1], I picked up the 
> DVD set of The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya and told a friend about it. 
> His almost immediate response was: "Which order are you watching them 
> in?" 

(snip)

	Okay.

	That was quietly brilliant.

	The trouble was, you're now going to ask me "Why?", and the best answer 
I can give at this point is "Er."

	First, that infamous ordering. I'm still trying to work out if the 
director is - like Captain Goto in Patlabor - a genius or just quite 
incredibly lucky that it actually works.

	A note has to go out to the animation. Its not flashy, or spectacular, 
but it oozes quality. Theres a naturalness, a rightness to it that 
somehow makes it seem very real, even if we're talking about the usual 
eyes-the-size-of-grapefruits. The same goes for the backgrounds, which 
just feel... like Japan. Not the sometimes stylised anime version, or 
the glossy 80s bubble economy Japan, but... Japan.

	I guess having the chief animator also being the lead character 
designer helps.

	Kyons point of view also gives an incredibly honest feeling, his dual 
internal narrative usually followed by his saying something thats 
somewhat at odds with his mental processes adds to that authentic 
atmosphere - sometimes hes thinking, and the other characters can tell 
whats hes thinking, and react accordingly - but its not mind reading.

	Back to "Er.". I've been in this trouble before, with Utena. I got 
myself out of that one by relating it to The Prisoner. Its an analogy 
that might not hold up for everyone, but it holds up for me. And with 
Haruhi Suzumiya, I've had to grab another series to do the same thing 
with - Spaced.

	Both series are, more or less, set in reality. Both are funny, though 
in different ways. And both have their moments of that reality turning 
to fantasy, but in a way that doesn't wrench the viewer from one to the 
other.

	I think.

	I also have this sneaking suspicion that I've been hoodwinked into 
watching a Magical Girl show, but one thats as far removed from Sailor 
Moon as Turn-A Gundam was from its roots...

-- 
* "Attack!"     * justin@briareos.demon.co.uk *
* "Attack who?" *                             *
* "EVERYONE!"   *                             *
  - Galvatron    *   Decepticon Decoy Target   *
date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 19:29:32 +0100   author:   Justin Palmer

Re: God Only Knows: The Viewing Order of Haruhi Suzumiya. (review)   
In message <g5o33a$n5m$1$8300dec7@news.demon.co.uk>, Justin Palmer
 writes
>Justin Palmer wrote:
>
>> I picked up the  DVD set of The Melancholy of Haruhi Suzumiya

>       Okay.
>
>       That was quietly brilliant.
>
>       The trouble was, you're now going to ask me "Why?", and the best
>answer I can give at this point is "Er."

 That feeling will wear off. It's not as good a series as the Yuuutsu
cultists would like you to think[0], but it is a cut better than most
extruded anime-like product of recent years. There are rumours of
another series; this can be the breaking point (see Gunslinger Girl for
a horrible example of the trope) when the owners of the property cash
in, cutting production values and costs knowing it's got a locked-in
audience to keep the money flowing. OTOH shows like Aria kept up their
production values season to season even with changes to staffs and
artists.

 [0] There is a lot of Suzumiya Haruhi doujinshi and fanfiction out
there. A lot. No, really a LOT[1]. Even more remarkably, only a large
fraction of it is hentai, not 99% which is the fate of most anime
properties.

 [1] I'm going to be at the summer Comiket again this year, and I
confidently expect to see piles and piles of MoSH doujinshi there.
-- 
 To reply, my gmail address is nojay1              Robert Sneddon
date: Thu, 17 Jul 2008 20:12:40 +0100   author:   Robert Sneddon

Re: God Only Knows: The Viewing Order of Haruhi Suzumiya. (review)   
In a futile gesture against entropy, Justin Palmer wrote:

>         First, that infamous ordering. I'm still trying to work out if the 
> director is - like Captain Goto in Patlabor - a genius or just quite 
> incredibly lucky that it actually works.

If you thought Haruhi did fun things with episode ordering, you really
need to give Baccano! a look...  (Well, provided you don't mind a bit of
blood.  For certain large values of "a bit".)  Trains almost count as
mecha, right? ;)

Overall I think I have to agree with Robert Sneddon - whilst Haruhi
really did stand out at the time (not least due to its incredible cult
appeal), it does pale somewhat in retrospect.  It was certainly better
than most shows of recent years, but it doesn't quite have the depth of
the very best (IMAO Mushishi; Simoun; Baccano!; maybe Aria on its better
days, for example).  I'll definitely be watching the second season,
anyway.
-- 
Adam Jones (adam@yggdrasl.demon.co.uk)(http://www.yggdrasl.demon.co.uk/)
.oO("Picture McDonald's doing lasagna."                                )
PGP public key: http://www.yggdrasl.demon.co.uk/pubkey.asc
date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 08:49:30 +0100   author:   Adam Jones

Re: God Only Knows: The Viewing Order of Haruhi Suzumiya. (review)   
Adam Jones wrote:
> In a futile gesture against entropy, Justin Palmer wrote:
> 
>>         First, that infamous ordering. I'm still trying to work out if the 
>> director is - like Captain Goto in Patlabor - a genius or just quite 
>> incredibly lucky that it actually works.
> 
> If you thought Haruhi did fun things with episode ordering, you really
> need to give Baccano! a look...  (Well, provided you don't mind a bit of
> blood.  For certain large values of "a bit".)  Trains almost count as
> mecha, right? ;)
> 
	Ever heard of Lightning Attack Express Hikarian? ^_^

	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKU7sDR9d7A

	In my wildest dreams, I cannot possibly imagine anyone at the Waterloo 
Integrated Control Centre sitting there with a rose in their mouth...

	And dammit, it was bad enough when they moved from Gatchamans "The 
Giant Mummy That Causes Storms!" to "Unfamiliar Ceiling"...

(snip)

-- 
* "Attack!"     * justin@briareos.demon.co.uk *
* "Attack who?" *                             *
* "EVERYONE!"   *                             *
  - Galvatron    *   Decepticon Decoy Target   *
date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 15:15:35 +0100   author:   Justin Palmer

Re: God Only Knows: The Viewing Order of Haruhi Suzumiya. (review)   
Robert Sneddon wrote:


>  [0] There is a lot of Suzumiya Haruhi doujinshi and fanfiction out
> there. A lot. No, really a LOT[1]. Even more remarkably, only a large
> fraction of it is hentai, not 99% which is the fate of most anime
> properties.
> 
>  [1] I'm going to be at the summer Comiket again this year, and I
> confidently expect to see piles and piles of MoSH doujinshi there.

	Do you have to read it upside down and from the middle too? ^_^

-- 
* "Attack!"     * justin@briareos.demon.co.uk *
* "Attack who?" *                             *
* "EVERYONE!"   *                             *
  - Galvatron    *   Decepticon Decoy Target   *
date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 15:17:38 +0100   author:   Justin Palmer

Re: God Only Knows: The Viewing Order of Haruhi Suzumiya. (review)   
Justin Palmer  wrote:

>      A note has to go out to the animation.

It's very good. I like all the odd camera angles, like when they're talking 
in class and the camera has someone else in the foreground or background or 
is looking up at them from ground level etc (and NOT just to see up a 
girl's skirt, as was the case in Dull Metal Panic!)

There's enormous attention to detail too, which is easy to miss whilst 
watching subs. In case you didn't notice in episode 12 for instance, after 
Haruhi describes how she came to be in the band, if you go back and rewatch 
the ep. you can see those events unfolding in the background: in the 
cloakroom the band members are arguing with a school official and then the 
silhouette of a girl with bunny ears appears walking towards them... later 
we see a band member rush past Kyon, and then in the gloom at the end of 
the corridor Haruhi and Yuki dash past clutching guitar cases, present just 
for a second whilst Kyon and his mates are talking in the foreground.

>      I also have this sneaking suspicion that I've been hoodwinked into 
> watching a Magical Girl show, but one thats as far removed from Sailor 
> Moon as Turn-A Gundam was from its roots...

I wouldn't call it magical girl - there's no transformation sequence 
(unless you count changing into a bunny girl outfit!) and no cuddly 
mascot/familiar (unless you count Mikuru). 

Come to think of it though, Haruhi's propensity to take her clothes off in 
public might be a nod towards the traditional nude transformation 
sequence.....
date: 18 Jul 2008 16:38:12 GMT   author:   Wasabi lid

Re: God Only Knows: The Viewing Order of Haruhi Suzumiya. (review)   
Wasabi wrote:
> Justin Palmer  wrote:
> 
>>      A note has to go out to the animation.
> 
> It's very good. I like all the odd camera angles, like when they're talking 
> in class and the camera has someone else in the foreground or background or 
> is looking up at them from ground level etc (and NOT just to see up a 
> girl's skirt, as was the case in Dull Metal Panic!)
> 
> There's enormous attention to detail too, which is easy to miss whilst 
> watching subs. In case you didn't notice in episode 12 for instance, after 
> Haruhi describes how she came to be in the band, if you go back and rewatch 
> the ep. you can see those events unfolding in the background: 

(snip)

	I noticed. Mecha fans tend to be good at details. ^_^ Theres another 
scene I liked, where Kyon and Koizumi turn a corner into a corridor and 
two schoolgirls walking into the shot follow them.

> 
>>      I also have this sneaking suspicion that I've been hoodwinked into 
>> watching a Magical Girl show, but one thats as far removed from Sailor 
>> Moon as Turn-A Gundam was from its roots...
> 
> I wouldn't call it magical girl - there's no transformation sequence 
> (unless you count changing into a bunny girl outfit!) and no cuddly 
> mascot/familiar (unless you count Mikuru). 
> 
	That sun-face thing above the blackboard? ^_^

> Come to think of it though, Haruhi's propensity to take her clothes off in 
> public might be a nod towards the traditional nude transformation 
> sequence.....

	Not hard to see how that one became a tradition, is it? ^_^

-- 
* "Attack!"     * justin@briareos.demon.co.uk *
* "Attack who?" *                             *
* "EVERYONE!"   *                             *
  - Galvatron    *   Decepticon Decoy Target   *
date: Fri, 18 Jul 2008 18:10:59 +0100   author:   Justin Palmer

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