-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

                     REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)

This is a formal Request For Discussion (RFD) for the following changes
in the uk.* Usenet hierarchy:

            create unmoderated newsgroup uk.local.isle-of-man

Newsgroup line:
uk.local.isle-of-man	Discussion of all topics concerning the Isle of Man


      *** ALL DISCUSSION MUST TAKE PLACE IN UK.NET.NEWS.CONFIG ***

This is not a Call for Votes (CFV); you cannot vote at this time.
Further procedural details are given below.

RATIONALE: uk.local.isle-of-man

There is currently no usenet discussion group for the Isle of Man, which
territory, although not technically part of the UK, is one of the "territories
closely associated with it" (likewise see for instance existing group
uk.local.channel-isles). The only discussion groups readily located for this
area are web-based 'sponsored' blogs such as

http://www.manxforums.com/forums/
http://www.iomtoday.co.im/yoursay.aspx

It is suggested that the Island's cultural and financial importance and its
distinct identity merit the creation of a discrete newsgroup and that the
continued absence of one from the uk.local hierarchy is anomalous.

CHARTER: uk.local.isle-of-man

Discussion about people, places and events in or affecting the Isle of Man.

Advertising

Advertising is forbidden.

Binaries & Formatting

Encoded binaries (e.g. pictures, compressed files, etc.) are
forbidden. Such material belongs on a web or FTP site to which
a pointer may be posted. Cryptographic signatures (e.g. PGP)
may be used where authentication is important and should be as
short as possible.

Posts must be readable as plain text. HTML, RTF and similarly
formatted messages are prohibited. To see how to make some
common newsreaders comply with this, read
<http://www.usenet.org.uk/ukpost.html>.

Warning. Anyone posting contrary to this charter may be reported to their
"postmaster" and/or Se
rvice Provider.

END CHARTER

PROCEDURE:

This is a request for discussion, not a call for votes.  In this phase of
the process, any potential problems with the proposal should be raised
and resolved.  The discussion period will continue for a minimum of 10
days, starting from when this RFD is posted to uk.net.news.announce
(i.e. until June 19th) after which a Call For Votes (CFV) may be
posted by a neutral vote taker if the discussion warrants it.
Alternatively, the proposal may proceed by the fast-track method.  Please
do not attempt to vote until this happens.

This RFD attempts to comply fully with the "Guidelines for Group Creation
within the UK Hierarchy" as published regularly in uk.net.news.announce
and is available from http://www.usenet.org.uk/guidelines.html (the UK
Usenet website).  Please refer to this document if you have any questions
about the process.

DISTRIBUTION:

This RFD has been posted to the following newsgroups:
        uk.net.news.announce
        uk.net.news.config
        uk.local.borders-region
        uk.local.nw-england

Proponent:
        R. Jones <rwj(at)eidosnet(dot)co(dot)uk>

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At 18:35:11 on Sun, 8 Jun 2008, R. Jones <rwj@eidosnet.co.uk.invalid> 
wrote in <rfd1-uk.local.isle-of-man-20080608173511$5728@gradwell.net>:

>It is suggested that the Island's cultural and financial importance and its
>distinct identity merit the creation of a discrete newsgroup and that the
>continued absence of one from the uk.local hierarchy is anomalous.

I reckon that you deserve one just for getting "discrete" right, and I 
very much wish that I could truthfully say that I would read and use 
such a group.  (But I can't.)
-- 
Molly
I don't speak for the Committee.  If I ever do, it will be made
specifically clear.
My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not be so for ever.

In <rfd1-uk.local.isle-of-man-20080608173511$5728@gradwell.net> R. Jones <rwj@eidosnet.co.uk.invalid> writes:

>                     REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)

>This is a formal Request For Discussion (RFD) for the following changes
>in the uk.* Usenet hierarchy:

>            create unmoderated newsgroup uk.local.isle-of-man

>Newsgroup line:
>uk.local.isle-of-man	Discussion of all topics concerning the Isle of Man

I advise removing the redundant wording "Discussion of all". All groups
are for discussing things.

>RATIONALE: uk.local.isle-of-man

>There is currently no usenet discussion group for the Isle of Man, which
>territory, although not technically part of the UK, is one of the "territories
>closely associated with it" (likewise see for instance existing group
>uk.local.channel-isles). The only discussion groups readily located for this
>area are web-based 'sponsored' blogs such as

>http://www.manxforums.com/forums/
>http://www.iomtoday.co.im/yoursay.aspx

This idea seems fine in principle, but we need some evidence that there
are some people out there who would use the group. That means we need to
see at least a handful of such people posting here to say so. So you need
to do some work behind the scenes (e.g. on the blogs you have mentioned)
to get those people into this discussion here.

>CHARTER: uk.local.isle-of-man

Unfortunately, your charter does not adhere to "Mabbett's rules" which you
will find on www.usenet.org.uk/hierarchy.html#uk.local. You your next move
should be to submit a 2nd RFD with a suitably ammended charter (suitable
text can be gleaned from other uk.local.* charters).

-- 
Charles H. Lindsey ---------At Home, doing my own thing------------------------
Tel: +44 161 436 6131 Fax: +44 161 436 6133   Web: http://www.cs.man.ac.uk/~chl
Email: chl@clerew.man.ac.uk      Snail: 5 Clerewood Ave, CHEADLE, SK8 3JU, U.K.
PGP: 2C15F1A9      Fingerprint: 73 6D C2 51 93 A0 01 E7 65 E8 64 7E 14 A4 AB A5

On Tue, 10 Jun 2008 09:42:55 GMT, "Charles Lindsey"
 wrote:

>Unfortunately, your charter does not adhere to "Mabbett's rules" which you
>will find on www.usenet.org.uk/hierarchy.html#uk.local. You your next move
>should be to submit a 2nd RFD with a suitably ammended charter (suitable
>text can be gleaned from other uk.local.* charters).

I'd recommend reading the charter for: uk.local.geordie

On Sun, 08 Jun 2008 18:35:11 +0100, R. Jones
<rwj@eidosnet.co.uk.invalid> wrote:

>            create unmoderated newsgroup uk.local.isle-of-man

No objection here.  Tweak the semantics to pacify the pedants, try to
raise some other support external to unnc and I can't see any reason
why this should be subject to a Fast Track

In article , 
nospam@nominet.name says...
>
>
>On Sun, 08 Jun 2008 18:35:11 +0100, R. Jones
><rwj@eidosnet.co.uk.invalid> wrote:
>
>>            create unmoderated newsgroup uk.local.isle-of-man
>
>No objection here.  Tweak the semantics to pacify the pedants, try to
>raise some other support external to unnc and I can't see any reason
>why this should be subject to a Fast Track
>

(I am the RFD proposer, posting from here as eidosnet nttp currently 
seems inactive).

Thanks for the pointer to the naming conventions at 
http://www.usenet.org.uk/hierarchy.html#uk.local.

I used the RFD creator at http://www.ckdog.co.uk/rfdmaker/ and consulted 
some other background information including checking on the existence of 
similarly named or similar-coverage groups. The proposed name was 
fashioned after the name of the existing "uk.local.isle-of-wight" so 
given this, I assumed the proposed name format was correct in principle. 
If this is material can e.g. the moderator of uk.net.news.announce 
pronounce?

(Further 'background' dissemination: the web based discussion forums 
noted in the RFD have some ferocious terms and conditions and I am 
musing on that but meantime I have informally copied the RFD to 
soc.culture.celtic where I think an RFD for a (similar) group coverage 
was raised some years ago).

Regards,

** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

At 14:55:33 on Tue, 10 Jun 2008, R. Jones <rwj@eidosnet.co.uk.invalid> 
wrote in :

>I used the RFD creator at http://www.ckdog.co.uk/rfdmaker/ and consulted
>some other background information including checking on the existence of
>similarly named or similar-coverage groups. The proposed name was
>fashioned after the name of the existing "uk.local.isle-of-wight" so
>given this, I assumed the proposed name format was correct in principle.

It's not the name that's the problem at all - Charles was perhaps less 
than clear in his post.  It's this section of the uk.local.* bit which 
he meant you to take on board, and include in the proposed charter:

'Messages posted to groups in this hierarchy must not be cross-posted to 
more than a TOTAL of four uk.local.* newsgroups; these may be 
geographically adjacent or overlapping, or connected by the subject of 
the post (e.g. "moving house from Manchester to Birmingham").

'Note that the advertising of widely-available goods or services is 
*not* relevant in this context, and that most uk.local.* groups have 
restrictions on advertising, or prohibit it. Cross-posted adverts, where 
allowed, must meet the requirements of the charters of *all* groups 
involved.

'A paragraph to this effect, must be included in any future charter for 
a group in this hierarchy.'
-- 
Molly
I don't speak for the Committee.  If I ever do, it will be made
specifically clear.
My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not be so for ever.

"Molly Mockford"  wrote in message 
news:k1rELemDwDTIFw0V@molly.mockford...
> At 18:35:11 on Sun, 8 Jun 2008, R. Jones <rwj@eidosnet.co.uk.invalid> 
> wrote in <rfd1-uk.local.isle-of-man-20080608173511$5728@gradwell.net>:
>
>>It is suggested that the Island's cultural and financial importance and 
>>its
>>distinct identity merit the creation of a discrete newsgroup and that the
>>continued absence of one from the uk.local hierarchy is anomalous.
>
> I reckon that you deserve one just for getting "discrete" right, and I 
> very much wish that I could truthfully say that I would read and use such 
> a group.  (But I can't.)

I reckon he deserves one for actually submitting an RFD when unnc had become 
all but moribund!

R. Jones <rwj@eidosnet.co.uk.invalid> wrote:

>   create unmoderated newsgroup uk.local.isle-of-man

There is no such place as the Isle of Man.

On Fri, 13 Jun 2008 22:01:46 +0100, %steve%@malloc.co.uk (Steve Firth)
wrote:

>R. Jones <rwj@eidosnet.co.uk.invalid> wrote:
>
>>   create unmoderated newsgroup uk.local.isle-of-man
>
>There is no such place as the Isle of Man.


Really?  My uncle lives there!

At 22:01:46 on Fri, 13 Jun 2008, Steve Firth <%steve%@malloc.co.uk> 
wrote in <1iihuia.1y9fxqg1aanjn8N%%steve%@malloc.co.uk>:

>There is no such place as the Isle of Man.

No man is an island.  So is Man.

(In loving memory of Mike Stevens)
-- 
Molly
I don't speak for the Committee.  If I ever do, it will be made
specifically clear.
My Reply-To address *is* valid, though may not be so for ever.

Molly Mockford  wrote:

> At 22:01:46 on Fri, 13 Jun 2008, Steve Firth <%steve%@malloc.co.uk> 
> wrote in <1iihuia.1y9fxqg1aanjn8N%%steve%@malloc.co.uk>:
> 
> >There is no such place as the Isle of Man.
> 
> No man is an island.  So is Man.
> 
> (In loving memory of Mike Stevens)

"Wight is a Middle English word for a creature or a living being,
especially a human being." (Trashypedia)

This proposed group would obviously cause confusion between the Isle of
Man and the Isle of Wight, since wight is a synonym for man.

Message-ID: <1iii12b.xzljlv121ivnkN%%steve%@malloc.co.uk> from Steve
Firth contained the following:

>This proposed group would obviously cause confusion between the Isle of
>Man and the Isle of Wight, since wight is a synonym for man.

Obviously.  I always get so confused whenever I visit my SIL in Lee on
Solent. How she teases me when I ask to see the cats with no tails! And
it cracks them up when I do my 'Jake the peg' impression.

-- 
Geoff Berrow (put thecat out to email)
It's only Usenet, no one dies.
My opinions, not the committee's, mine.
Simple RFDs http://www.ckdog.co.uk/rfdmaker/

Geoff Berrow  wrote:

> Message-ID: <1iii12b.xzljlv121ivnkN%%steve%@malloc.co.uk> from Steve
> Firth contained the following:
> 
> >This proposed group would obviously cause confusion between the Isle of
> >Man and the Isle of Wight, since wight is a synonym for man.
> 
> Obviously.  I always get so confused whenever I visit my SIL in Lee on
> Solent. How she teases me when I ask to see the cats with no tails! And
> it cracks them up when I do my 'Jake the peg' impression.

OOh yes, another possible soruce of confusion, the logo could lead
people to get confused with Sicily.

On Sat, 14 Jun 2008 00:24:21 +0100, %steve%@malloc.co.uk (Steve Firth)
wrote:

>This proposed group would obviously cause confusion between the Isle of
>Man and the Isle of Wight, since wight is a synonym for man.

Who on earth do you think you are coming in here and trying to stir up
a discussion?  We're not used to discussions in here, please cease.

.mother wrote:
> On Sat, 14 Jun 2008 00:24:21 +0100, %steve%@malloc.co.uk (Steve Firth)
> wrote:
>
>> This proposed group would obviously cause confusion between the Isle
>> of Man and the Isle of Wight, since wight is a synonym for man.
>
> Who on earth do you think you are coming in here and trying to stir up
> a discussion?  We're not used to discussions in here

Especially erudite ones.

-- 
  kat
          >^..^<

Sat, 14 Jun 2008 07:13:45  
uk.net.news.config Geoff Berrow 

>Message-ID: <1iii12b.xzljlv121ivnkN%%steve%@malloc.co.uk> from Steve
>Firth contained the following:
>
>>This proposed group would obviously cause confusion between the Isle of
>>Man and the Isle of Wight, since wight is a synonym for man.
>
>Obviously.  I always get so confused whenever I visit my SIL in Lee on
>Solent. How she teases me when I ask to see the cats with no tails! And
>it cracks them up when I do my 'Jake the peg' impression.

Blimey!  Is that what is know as a "fun loving family" ?

P.S. I am teasing

-- 
Wm...
Reply-To: address valid for at least 7 days

On Sat, 14 Jun 2008 09:48:36 +0100, "Wm..."
 wrote:

>P.S. I am teasing
  ^

Should there be a period, there?

Sun, 15 Jun 2008 00:44:12  
uk.net.news.config . mother <nospam@nominet.name.invalid>

>On Sat, 14 Jun 2008 09:48:36 +0100, "Wm..."
> wrote:
>
>>P.S. I am teasing
>  ^
>
>Should there be a period, there?

I think so and my 1970 Collins English Gem Dictionary thinks so too.

P.S. (_Post_ _scriptum_), Postscript.

Fashion may have changed.

-- 
Wm...
Reply-To: address valid for at least 7 days

mother  wrote:

> On Sat, 14 Jun 2008 09:48:36 +0100, "Wm..."
>  wrote:
> 
> >P.S. I am teasing
>   ^
> 
> Should there be a period, there?

Perhaps he's getting in touch with his feminine side?

In article <1iihuia.1y9fxqg1aanjn8N%%steve%@malloc.co.uk>,
%steve%@malloc.co.uk (Steve Firth) writes:

> R. Jones <rwj@eidosnet.co.uk.invalid> wrote:
> 
> >   create unmoderated newsgroup uk.local.isle-of-man
> 
> There is no such place as the Isle of Man.

Has it moved to Berkshire then?

-- 
Mike Fleming

Mike Fleming <{mike}@tauzero.co.uk> wrote:

> In article <1iihuia.1y9fxqg1aanjn8N%%steve%@malloc.co.uk>,
> %steve%@malloc.co.uk (Steve Firth) writes:
> 
> > R. Jones <rwj@eidosnet.co.uk.invalid> wrote:
> > 
> > >   create unmoderated newsgroup uk.local.isle-of-man
> > 
> > There is no such place as the Isle of Man.
> 
> Has it moved to Berkshire then?

I believe the Isle of Man to be umm yer know, quantum. Since it has
another state of existence which is the Isle of Wight, its actual state
at any time is indeterminate. So in theory it coudl be in Berkshire.

We need to put it in a box with a cat[1] before any further decisions
can be made.


[1] Which may or may not have a tail.

On 8 Jun, 18:35, R. Jones <r...@eidosnet.co.uk.invalid> wrote:
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
>                      REQUEST FOR DISCUSSION (RFD)
>
> This is a formal Request For Discussion (RFD) for the following changes
> in the uk.* Usenet hierarchy:
>
>             create unmoderated newsgroupuk.local.isle-of-man
>
> Newsgroup line:uk.local.isle-of-man    Discussion of all topics concerning the Isle of Man
>
>       *** ALL DISCUSSION MUST TAKE PLACE IN UK.NET.NEWS.CONFIG ***
>
> This is not a Call for Votes (CFV); you cannot vote at this time.
> Further procedural details are given below.
>
> RATIONALE:uk.local.isle-of-man
>
> There is currently no usenet discussion group for the Isle of Man, which
> territory, although not technically part of the UK, is one of the "territories
> closely associated with it" (likewise see for instance existing groupuk.local.channel-isles). The only discussion groups readily located for this
> area are web-based 'sponsored' blogs such as
>
> http://www.manxforums.com/forums/http://www.iomtoday.co.im/yoursay.aspx
>
> It is suggested that the Island's cultural and financial importance and its
> distinct identity merit the creation of a discrete newsgroup and that the
> continued absence of one from theuk.localhierarchy is anomalous.
>
> CHARTER:uk.local.isle-of-man
>
> Discussion about people, places and events in or affecting the Isle of Man.
>
> Advertising
>
> Advertising is forbidden.
>
> Binaries & Formatting
>
> Encoded binaries (e.g. pictures, compressed files, etc.) are
> forbidden. Such material belongs on a web or FTP site to which
> a pointer may be posted. Cryptographic signatures (e.g. PGP)
> may be used where authentication is important and should be as
> short as possible.
>
> Posts must be readable as plain text. HTML, RTF and similarly
> formatted messages are prohibited. To see how to make some
> common newsreaders comply with this, read
> <http://www.usenet.org.uk/ukpost.html>.
>
> Warning. Anyone posting contrary to this charter may be reported to their
> "postmaster" and/or Se
> rvice Provider.
>
> END CHARTER
>
> PROCEDURE:
>
> This is a request for discussion, not a call for votes.  In this phase of
> the process, any potential problems with the proposal should be raised
> and resolved.  The discussion period will continue for a minimum of 10
> days, starting from when this RFD is posted to uk.net.news.announce
> (i.e. until June 19th) after which a Call For Votes (CFV) may be
> posted by a neutral vote taker if the discussion warrants it.
> Alternatively, the proposal may proceed by the fast-track method.  Please
> do not attempt to vote until this happens.
>
> This RFD attempts to comply fully with the "Guidelines for Group Creation
> within the UK Hierarchy" as published regularly in uk.net.news.announce
> and is available fromhttp://www.usenet.org.uk/guidelines.html(the UK
> Usenet website).  Please refer to this document if you have any questions
> about the process.
>
> DISTRIBUTION:
>
> This RFD has been posted to the following newsgroups:
>         uk.net.news.announce
>         uk.net.news.config
>        uk.local.borders-region
>        uk.local.nw-england
>
> Proponent:
>         R. Jones <rwj(at)eidosnet(dot)co(dot)uk>
>
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Even more anomalous to put something in a UK hierarchy when it isn't
in the UK (or EU!)

Nephihaha wrote:
>
> Even more anomalous to put something in a UK hierarchy when it isn't
> in the UK (or EU!)

Actually, that is debatable - bearing in mind that the Isle of Man is in 
customs union with the UK.
-- 
John Briggs

On Jun 29, 1:55 pm, "John Briggs"  wrote:
> Nephihaha wrote:
>
> > Even more anomalous to put something in a UK hierarchy when it isn't
> > in the UK (or EU!)
>
> Actually, that is debatable - bearing in mind that the Isle of Man is in
> customs union with the UK.

Not debateable at all. The Isle of Man is not part of the UK, even if
some ignorant people presume it to be part of north west England. It
has its own Gaelic culture, parliament which is older than
Westminster, and has never ever been a full part of the United
Kingdom.

People with Manx passports (yes, there is such a thing) have
employment rights in the UK, but can be refused in the rest of the EU.

Nephihaha wrote:
> On Jun 29, 1:55 pm, "John Briggs"  wrote:
>> Nephihaha wrote:
>>
>>> Even more anomalous to put something in a UK hierarchy when it isn't
>>> in the UK (or EU!)
>>
>> Actually, that is debatable - bearing in mind that the Isle of Man
>> is in customs union with the UK.
>
> Not debateable at all. The Isle of Man is not part of the UK, even if
> some ignorant people presume it to be part of north west England. It
> has its own Gaelic culture, parliament which is older than
> Westminster, and has never ever been a full part of the United
> Kingdom.
>
> People with Manx passports (yes, there is such a thing) have
> employment rights in the UK, but can be refused in the rest of the EU.

I repeat: if it is in customs union with the UK, how can it be said to be 
"outside" the UK?  Have you ever been there? It is incredibly provincial, 
with a tiny population (half the size of the Isle of Wight...) - most of 
whom have origins in Lancashire.
-- 
John Briggs

Sun, 29 Jun 2008 09:24:35 
 
uk.net.news.config Nephihaha 

>On Jun 29, 1:55 pm, "John Briggs"  wrote:
>> Nephihaha wrote:
>>
>> > Even more anomalous to put something in a UK hierarchy when it isn't
>> > in the UK (or EU!)
>>
>> Actually, that is debatable - bearing in mind that the Isle of Man is in
>> customs union with the UK.
>
>Not debateable at all. The Isle of Man is not part of the UK, even if
>some ignorant people presume it to be part of north west England. It
>has its own Gaelic culture, parliament which is older than
>Westminster, and has never ever been a full part of the United
>Kingdom.
>
>People with Manx passports (yes, there is such a thing) have
>employment rights in the UK, but can be refused in the rest of the EU.

if that is one against the creation of the group I say one for.

-- 
Wm...
Reply-To: address valid for at least 7 days

On Sun, 29 Jun 2008 18:19:31 +0100, "John Briggs"
 wrote:

> I repeat: if it is in customs union with the UK, how can it be said to be 
> "outside" the UK?

It seems to me to prove quite the contrary; no country would enter into a
customs union with itself.

Tony

"Nephihaha"  wrote in message 
news:a8cb4646-5a76-4283-a9e6-831bcc0b59b6@m3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...

Even more anomalous to put something in a UK hierarchy when it isn't
in the UK (or EU!)

Read the uk.local.* hierarchy charter

In uk.net.news.config message , Tue,
1 Jul 2008 11:53:42, Dave Mayall  posted:
>"Nephihaha"  wrote in message
>news:a8cb4646-5a76-4283-a9e6-831bcc0b59b6@m3g2000hsc.googlegroups.com...
>
>Even more anomalous to put something in a UK hierarchy when it isn't
>in the UK (or EU!)
>
>Read the uk.local.* hierarchy charter

Nevertheless, ISTR that, some while ago, it was generally agreed that
news:uk.* should accommodate the whole of the British Isles (apart from
the RoI) and any other small British places lacking a more appropriate
hierarchy - which nowadays amounts to the IoM, the CI, Gibraltar, the
Falklands, and maybe a few others.

If uk.local.* don't want them, hierarchies uk.non-local.* or uk.nearly.*
or ... might be created, if wanted.

We should have, too, news:uk.eu.* - if there's enough chance of it being
used significantly.

-- 
 (c) John Stockton, nr London, UK. ?@merlyn.demon.co.uk  Turnpike v6.05  MIME.
 Web  <URL:http://www.merlyn.demon.co.uk/> - FAQish topics, acronyms, & links.
 Proper <= 4-line sig. separator as above, a line exactly "-- " (SonOfRFC1036)
 Do not Mail News to me. Before a reply, quote with ">" or "> " (SonOfRFC1036)