http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/05/09/nbull109.xml

British Hindus are vowing to do all they can to protect a sacred bull
from slaughter after it was diagnosed with bovine tuberculosis.

The animal, called Shambo, is kept by the Skandavale Temple in
Llanpumsaint, south west Wales.

The authorities insist it must be culled after testing positive for
the cattle disease, which can be transmitted to humans.

But the Hindu Forum of Britain has promised to form a human chain
around the temple to save the bull, which Hindu chiefs insist is
isolated and in a healthy condition.

The temple has promised to keep the animal, which will never enter the
food chain, in isolation for the rest of its life but requests for a
reprieve have been rejected. 

 "To have a sacred bull from the temple slaughtered is completely
unthinkable for us and is a matter of grave concern," said Ramesh
Kallidai, secretary-general of the Hindu Forum.. "It strikes at the
very core of our beliefs."

He believes Shambo could be vaccinated and doesn't pose a risk to
other animals or people.

However, the Welsh Assembly, which has responsibility for the matter,
maintains that the bull must die.

"We fully understand that this can be distressing for the owners, but
these measures are in place to protect public health and animal health
and prevent the further spread of the disease," she said.

Steve Greene wrote 

> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/05/09/nbull109.xml
> 
> British Hindus are vowing to do all they can to protect a sacred bull
> from slaughter after it was diagnosed with bovine tuberculosis.
> 
> The animal, called Shambo, is kept by the Skandavale Temple in
> Llanpumsaint, south west Wales.
> 
> The authorities insist it must be culled after testing positive for
> the cattle disease, which can be transmitted to humans.
> 
> But the Hindu Forum of Britain has promised to form a human chain
> around the temple to save the bull, which Hindu chiefs insist is
> isolated and in a healthy condition.
> 
> The temple has promised to keep the animal, which will never enter the
> food chain, in isolation for the rest of its life but requests for a
> reprieve have been rejected. 
> 
>  "To have a sacred bull from the temple slaughtered is completely
> unthinkable for us and is a matter of grave concern," said Ramesh
> Kallidai, secretary-general of the Hindu Forum.. "It strikes at the
> very core of our beliefs."
> 
> He believes Shambo could be vaccinated and doesn't pose a risk to
> other animals or people.
> 
> However, the Welsh Assembly, which has responsibility for the matter,
> maintains that the bull must die.
> 
> "We fully understand that this can be distressing for the owners, but
> these measures are in place to protect public health and animal health
> and prevent the further spread of the disease," she said. 
> 
> 


Meanwhile, a few miles up the road ....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/south_west/6637321.stm
Screening of 172 pupils in two Swansea schools for TB is underway after 
a member of staff and her three children were diagnosed with the 
infection

=?ISO-8859-15?Q?M=B2_T=2E=2E?=  wrote in
news:MPG.20ac185d3c75c0e198a3e2@news.readfreenews.net: 

> Steve Greene wrote 
> 
(sacred bull with TB)
>> 
>> However, the Welsh Assembly, which has responsibility for the
>> matter, maintains that the bull must die.
>> 
>> "We fully understand that this can be distressing for the owners,
>> but these measures are in place to protect public health and
>> animal health and prevent the further spread of the disease," she
>> said. 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> Meanwhile, a few miles up the road ....
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/south_west/6637321.stm
> Screening of 172 pupils in two Swansea schools for TB is underway
> after a member of staff and her three children were diagnosed with
> the infection
> 

Was this bovine TB, or is it totally irrelevant?  Not many people 
catch TB from bulls, as unpasteurised milk drinking isn't a factor.


-- 
Percy Picacity

Percy Picacity wrote:
|| =?ISO-8859-15?Q?M=B2_T=2E=2E?=  wrote in
|| news:MPG.20ac185d3c75c0e198a3e2@news.readfreenews.net:
||
||| Steve Greene wrote
|||
|| (sacred bull with TB)
||||
|||| However, the Welsh Assembly, which has responsibility for the
|||| matter, maintains that the bull must die.
||||
|||| "We fully understand that this can be distressing for the owners,
|||| but these measures are in place to protect public health and
|||| animal health and prevent the further spread of the disease," she
|||| said.
||||
||||
|||
|||
||| Meanwhile, a few miles up the road ....
|||
||| http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/south_west/6637321.stm
||| Screening of 172 pupils in two Swansea schools for TB is underway
||| after a member of staff and her three children were diagnosed with
||| the infection
|||
||
|| Was this bovine TB, or is it totally irrelevant?  Not many people
|| catch TB from bulls, as unpasteurised milk drinking isn't a factor.
||

Doesn't appear to be a problem accommodating asylum-seekers with the
drug-resistant human strain of TB... haven't heard any government minister
yet suggest that we have them put down!


||
|| --
|| Percy Picacity

Steve Greene wrote 

> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/05/09/nbull109.xml
> 
> British Hindus are vowing to do all they can to protect a sacred bull
> from slaughter after it was diagnosed with bovine tuberculosis.
> 
> The animal, called Shambo, is kept by the Skandavale Temple in
> Llanpumsaint, south west Wales.
> 
> The authorities insist it must be culled after testing positive for
> the cattle disease, which can be transmitted to humans.
> 
> But the Hindu Forum of Britain has promised to form a human chain
> around the temple to save the bull, which Hindu chiefs insist is
> isolated and in a healthy condition.
> 
> The temple has promised to keep the animal, which will never enter the
> food chain, in isolation for the rest of its life but requests for a
> reprieve have been rejected. 
> 
>  "To have a sacred bull from the temple slaughtered is completely
> unthinkable for us and is a matter of grave concern," said Ramesh
> Kallidai, secretary-general of the Hindu Forum.. "It strikes at the
> very core of our beliefs."
> 
> He believes Shambo could be vaccinated and doesn't pose a risk to
> other animals or people.
> 
> However, the Welsh Assembly, which has responsibility for the matter,
> maintains that the bull must die.
> 
> "We fully understand that this can be distressing for the owners, but
> these measures are in place to protect public health and animal health
> and prevent the further spread of the disease," she said. 
> 
> 


Meanwhile, a few miles up the road ....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/south_west/6637321.stm
Screening of 172 pupils in two Swansea schools for TB is underway after 
a member of staff and her three children were diagnosed with the 
infection

=?ISO-8859-15?Q?M=B2_T=2E=2E?=  wrote in
news:MPG.20ac185d3c75c0e198a3e2@news.readfreenews.net: 

> Steve Greene wrote 
> 
(sacred bull with TB)
>> 
>> However, the Welsh Assembly, which has responsibility for the
>> matter, maintains that the bull must die.
>> 
>> "We fully understand that this can be distressing for the owners,
>> but these measures are in place to protect public health and
>> animal health and prevent the further spread of the disease," she
>> said. 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> Meanwhile, a few miles up the road ....
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/south_west/6637321.stm
> Screening of 172 pupils in two Swansea schools for TB is underway
> after a member of staff and her three children were diagnosed with
> the infection
> 

Was this bovine TB, or is it totally irrelevant?  Not many people 
catch TB from bulls, as unpasteurised milk drinking isn't a factor.


-- 
Percy Picacity

Percy Picacity wrote:
|| =?ISO-8859-15?Q?M=B2_T=2E=2E?=  wrote in
|| news:MPG.20ac185d3c75c0e198a3e2@news.readfreenews.net:
||
||| Steve Greene wrote
|||
|| (sacred bull with TB)
||||
|||| However, the Welsh Assembly, which has responsibility for the
|||| matter, maintains that the bull must die.
||||
|||| "We fully understand that this can be distressing for the owners,
|||| but these measures are in place to protect public health and
|||| animal health and prevent the further spread of the disease," she
|||| said.
||||
||||
|||
|||
||| Meanwhile, a few miles up the road ....
|||
||| http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/south_west/6637321.stm
||| Screening of 172 pupils in two Swansea schools for TB is underway
||| after a member of staff and her three children were diagnosed with
||| the infection
|||
||
|| Was this bovine TB, or is it totally irrelevant?  Not many people
|| catch TB from bulls, as unpasteurised milk drinking isn't a factor.
||

Doesn't appear to be a problem accommodating asylum-seekers with the
drug-resistant human strain of TB... haven't heard any government minister
yet suggest that we have them put down!


||
|| --
|| Percy Picacity

Steve Greene wrote 

> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/05/09/nbull109.xml
> 
> British Hindus are vowing to do all they can to protect a sacred bull
> from slaughter after it was diagnosed with bovine tuberculosis.
> 
> The animal, called Shambo, is kept by the Skandavale Temple in
> Llanpumsaint, south west Wales.
> 
> The authorities insist it must be culled after testing positive for
> the cattle disease, which can be transmitted to humans.
> 
> But the Hindu Forum of Britain has promised to form a human chain
> around the temple to save the bull, which Hindu chiefs insist is
> isolated and in a healthy condition.
> 
> The temple has promised to keep the animal, which will never enter the
> food chain, in isolation for the rest of its life but requests for a
> reprieve have been rejected. 
> 
>  "To have a sacred bull from the temple slaughtered is completely
> unthinkable for us and is a matter of grave concern," said Ramesh
> Kallidai, secretary-general of the Hindu Forum.. "It strikes at the
> very core of our beliefs."
> 
> He believes Shambo could be vaccinated and doesn't pose a risk to
> other animals or people.
> 
> However, the Welsh Assembly, which has responsibility for the matter,
> maintains that the bull must die.
> 
> "We fully understand that this can be distressing for the owners, but
> these measures are in place to protect public health and animal health
> and prevent the further spread of the disease," she said. 
> 
> 


Meanwhile, a few miles up the road ....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/south_west/6637321.stm
Screening of 172 pupils in two Swansea schools for TB is underway after 
a member of staff and her three children were diagnosed with the 
infection

=?ISO-8859-15?Q?M=B2_T=2E=2E?=  wrote in
news:MPG.20ac185d3c75c0e198a3e2@news.readfreenews.net: 

> Steve Greene wrote 
> 
(sacred bull with TB)
>> 
>> However, the Welsh Assembly, which has responsibility for the
>> matter, maintains that the bull must die.
>> 
>> "We fully understand that this can be distressing for the owners,
>> but these measures are in place to protect public health and
>> animal health and prevent the further spread of the disease," she
>> said. 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> Meanwhile, a few miles up the road ....
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/south_west/6637321.stm
> Screening of 172 pupils in two Swansea schools for TB is underway
> after a member of staff and her three children were diagnosed with
> the infection
> 

Was this bovine TB, or is it totally irrelevant?  Not many people 
catch TB from bulls, as unpasteurised milk drinking isn't a factor.


-- 
Percy Picacity

Percy Picacity wrote:
|| =?ISO-8859-15?Q?M=B2_T=2E=2E?=  wrote in
|| news:MPG.20ac185d3c75c0e198a3e2@news.readfreenews.net:
||
||| Steve Greene wrote
|||
|| (sacred bull with TB)
||||
|||| However, the Welsh Assembly, which has responsibility for the
|||| matter, maintains that the bull must die.
||||
|||| "We fully understand that this can be distressing for the owners,
|||| but these measures are in place to protect public health and
|||| animal health and prevent the further spread of the disease," she
|||| said.
||||
||||
|||
|||
||| Meanwhile, a few miles up the road ....
|||
||| http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/south_west/6637321.stm
||| Screening of 172 pupils in two Swansea schools for TB is underway
||| after a member of staff and her three children were diagnosed with
||| the infection
|||
||
|| Was this bovine TB, or is it totally irrelevant?  Not many people
|| catch TB from bulls, as unpasteurised milk drinking isn't a factor.
||

Doesn't appear to be a problem accommodating asylum-seekers with the
drug-resistant human strain of TB... haven't heard any government minister
yet suggest that we have them put down!


||
|| --
|| Percy Picacity

On Wed, 09 May 2007 18:03:00 +0100, Steve Greene wrote:

> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/05/09/nbull109.xml
> 
> British Hindus are vowing to do all they can to protect a sacred bull
> from slaughter after it was diagnosed with bovine tuberculosis.
> 
> The animal, called Shambo, is kept by the Skandavale Temple in
> Llanpumsaint, south west Wales.
> 
> The authorities insist it must be culled after testing positive for
> the cattle disease, which can be transmitted to humans.
> 
> But the Hindu Forum of Britain has promised to form a human chain
> around the temple to save the bull, which Hindu chiefs insist is
> isolated and in a healthy condition.
> 
> The temple has promised to keep the animal, which will never enter the
> food chain, in isolation for the rest of its life but requests for a
> reprieve have been rejected. 
> 
>  "To have a sacred bull from the temple slaughtered is completely
> unthinkable for us and is a matter of grave concern," said Ramesh
> Kallidai, secretary-general of the Hindu Forum.. "It strikes at the
> very core of our beliefs."
> 
> He believes Shambo could be vaccinated and doesn't pose a risk to
> other animals or people.
> 
> However, the Welsh Assembly, which has responsibility for the matter,
> maintains that the bull must die.
> 
> "We fully understand that this can be distressing for the owners, but
> these measures are in place to protect public health and animal health
> and prevent the further spread of the disease," she said.

They can cure TB, so if thats the case with this sacred cow then Fine...
keep it in total isolation/quarantine until its cured, Otherwise it should
be put down.

Where did the cow get it from? (one of the congregation?)

Steve Greene wrote 

> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/05/09/nbull109.xml
> 
> British Hindus are vowing to do all they can to protect a sacred bull
> from slaughter after it was diagnosed with bovine tuberculosis.
> 
> The animal, called Shambo, is kept by the Skandavale Temple in
> Llanpumsaint, south west Wales.
> 
> The authorities insist it must be culled after testing positive for
> the cattle disease, which can be transmitted to humans.
> 
> But the Hindu Forum of Britain has promised to form a human chain
> around the temple to save the bull, which Hindu chiefs insist is
> isolated and in a healthy condition.
> 
> The temple has promised to keep the animal, which will never enter the
> food chain, in isolation for the rest of its life but requests for a
> reprieve have been rejected. 
> 
>  "To have a sacred bull from the temple slaughtered is completely
> unthinkable for us and is a matter of grave concern," said Ramesh
> Kallidai, secretary-general of the Hindu Forum.. "It strikes at the
> very core of our beliefs."
> 
> He believes Shambo could be vaccinated and doesn't pose a risk to
> other animals or people.
> 
> However, the Welsh Assembly, which has responsibility for the matter,
> maintains that the bull must die.
> 
> "We fully understand that this can be distressing for the owners, but
> these measures are in place to protect public health and animal health
> and prevent the further spread of the disease," she said. 
> 
> 


Meanwhile, a few miles up the road ....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/south_west/6637321.stm
Screening of 172 pupils in two Swansea schools for TB is underway after 
a member of staff and her three children were diagnosed with the 
infection

=?ISO-8859-15?Q?M=B2_T=2E=2E?=  wrote in
news:MPG.20ac185d3c75c0e198a3e2@news.readfreenews.net: 

> Steve Greene wrote 
> 
(sacred bull with TB)
>> 
>> However, the Welsh Assembly, which has responsibility for the
>> matter, maintains that the bull must die.
>> 
>> "We fully understand that this can be distressing for the owners,
>> but these measures are in place to protect public health and
>> animal health and prevent the further spread of the disease," she
>> said. 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> Meanwhile, a few miles up the road ....
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/south_west/6637321.stm
> Screening of 172 pupils in two Swansea schools for TB is underway
> after a member of staff and her three children were diagnosed with
> the infection
> 

Was this bovine TB, or is it totally irrelevant?  Not many people 
catch TB from bulls, as unpasteurised milk drinking isn't a factor.


-- 
Percy Picacity

Percy Picacity wrote:
|| =?ISO-8859-15?Q?M=B2_T=2E=2E?=  wrote in
|| news:MPG.20ac185d3c75c0e198a3e2@news.readfreenews.net:
||
||| Steve Greene wrote
|||
|| (sacred bull with TB)
||||
|||| However, the Welsh Assembly, which has responsibility for the
|||| matter, maintains that the bull must die.
||||
|||| "We fully understand that this can be distressing for the owners,
|||| but these measures are in place to protect public health and
|||| animal health and prevent the further spread of the disease," she
|||| said.
||||
||||
|||
|||
||| Meanwhile, a few miles up the road ....
|||
||| http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/south_west/6637321.stm
||| Screening of 172 pupils in two Swansea schools for TB is underway
||| after a member of staff and her three children were diagnosed with
||| the infection
|||
||
|| Was this bovine TB, or is it totally irrelevant?  Not many people
|| catch TB from bulls, as unpasteurised milk drinking isn't a factor.
||

Doesn't appear to be a problem accommodating asylum-seekers with the
drug-resistant human strain of TB... haven't heard any government minister
yet suggest that we have them put down!


||
|| --
|| Percy Picacity

On Wed, 09 May 2007 18:03:00 +0100, Steve Greene wrote:

> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/05/09/nbull109.xml
> 
> British Hindus are vowing to do all they can to protect a sacred bull
> from slaughter after it was diagnosed with bovine tuberculosis.
> 
> The animal, called Shambo, is kept by the Skandavale Temple in
> Llanpumsaint, south west Wales.
> 
> The authorities insist it must be culled after testing positive for
> the cattle disease, which can be transmitted to humans.
> 
> But the Hindu Forum of Britain has promised to form a human chain
> around the temple to save the bull, which Hindu chiefs insist is
> isolated and in a healthy condition.
> 
> The temple has promised to keep the animal, which will never enter the
> food chain, in isolation for the rest of its life but requests for a
> reprieve have been rejected. 
> 
>  "To have a sacred bull from the temple slaughtered is completely
> unthinkable for us and is a matter of grave concern," said Ramesh
> Kallidai, secretary-general of the Hindu Forum.. "It strikes at the
> very core of our beliefs."
> 
> He believes Shambo could be vaccinated and doesn't pose a risk to
> other animals or people.
> 
> However, the Welsh Assembly, which has responsibility for the matter,
> maintains that the bull must die.
> 
> "We fully understand that this can be distressing for the owners, but
> these measures are in place to protect public health and animal health
> and prevent the further spread of the disease," she said.

They can cure TB, so if thats the case with this sacred cow then Fine...
keep it in total isolation/quarantine until its cured, Otherwise it should
be put down.

Where did the cow get it from? (one of the congregation?)

Steve Greene wrote 

> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/05/09/nbull109.xml
> 
> British Hindus are vowing to do all they can to protect a sacred bull
> from slaughter after it was diagnosed with bovine tuberculosis.
> 
> The animal, called Shambo, is kept by the Skandavale Temple in
> Llanpumsaint, south west Wales.
> 
> The authorities insist it must be culled after testing positive for
> the cattle disease, which can be transmitted to humans.
> 
> But the Hindu Forum of Britain has promised to form a human chain
> around the temple to save the bull, which Hindu chiefs insist is
> isolated and in a healthy condition.
> 
> The temple has promised to keep the animal, which will never enter the
> food chain, in isolation for the rest of its life but requests for a
> reprieve have been rejected. 
> 
>  "To have a sacred bull from the temple slaughtered is completely
> unthinkable for us and is a matter of grave concern," said Ramesh
> Kallidai, secretary-general of the Hindu Forum.. "It strikes at the
> very core of our beliefs."
> 
> He believes Shambo could be vaccinated and doesn't pose a risk to
> other animals or people.
> 
> However, the Welsh Assembly, which has responsibility for the matter,
> maintains that the bull must die.
> 
> "We fully understand that this can be distressing for the owners, but
> these measures are in place to protect public health and animal health
> and prevent the further spread of the disease," she said. 
> 
> 


Meanwhile, a few miles up the road ....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/south_west/6637321.stm
Screening of 172 pupils in two Swansea schools for TB is underway after 
a member of staff and her three children were diagnosed with the 
infection

=?ISO-8859-15?Q?M=B2_T=2E=2E?=  wrote in
news:MPG.20ac185d3c75c0e198a3e2@news.readfreenews.net: 

> Steve Greene wrote 
> 
(sacred bull with TB)
>> 
>> However, the Welsh Assembly, which has responsibility for the
>> matter, maintains that the bull must die.
>> 
>> "We fully understand that this can be distressing for the owners,
>> but these measures are in place to protect public health and
>> animal health and prevent the further spread of the disease," she
>> said. 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> Meanwhile, a few miles up the road ....
> 
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/south_west/6637321.stm
> Screening of 172 pupils in two Swansea schools for TB is underway
> after a member of staff and her three children were diagnosed with
> the infection
> 

Was this bovine TB, or is it totally irrelevant?  Not many people 
catch TB from bulls, as unpasteurised milk drinking isn't a factor.


-- 
Percy Picacity

Percy Picacity wrote:
|| =?ISO-8859-15?Q?M=B2_T=2E=2E?=  wrote in
|| news:MPG.20ac185d3c75c0e198a3e2@news.readfreenews.net:
||
||| Steve Greene wrote
|||
|| (sacred bull with TB)
||||
|||| However, the Welsh Assembly, which has responsibility for the
|||| matter, maintains that the bull must die.
||||
|||| "We fully understand that this can be distressing for the owners,
|||| but these measures are in place to protect public health and
|||| animal health and prevent the further spread of the disease," she
|||| said.
||||
||||
|||
|||
||| Meanwhile, a few miles up the road ....
|||
||| http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/wales/south_west/6637321.stm
||| Screening of 172 pupils in two Swansea schools for TB is underway
||| after a member of staff and her three children were diagnosed with
||| the infection
|||
||
|| Was this bovine TB, or is it totally irrelevant?  Not many people
|| catch TB from bulls, as unpasteurised milk drinking isn't a factor.
||

Doesn't appear to be a problem accommodating asylum-seekers with the
drug-resistant human strain of TB... haven't heard any government minister
yet suggest that we have them put down!


||
|| --
|| Percy Picacity

On Wed, 09 May 2007 18:03:00 +0100, Steve Greene wrote:

> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/05/09/nbull109.xml
> 
> British Hindus are vowing to do all they can to protect a sacred bull
> from slaughter after it was diagnosed with bovine tuberculosis.
> 
> The animal, called Shambo, is kept by the Skandavale Temple in
> Llanpumsaint, south west Wales.
> 
> The authorities insist it must be culled after testing positive for
> the cattle disease, which can be transmitted to humans.
> 
> But the Hindu Forum of Britain has promised to form a human chain
> around the temple to save the bull, which Hindu chiefs insist is
> isolated and in a healthy condition.
> 
> The temple has promised to keep the animal, which will never enter the
> food chain, in isolation for the rest of its life but requests for a
> reprieve have been rejected. 
> 
>  "To have a sacred bull from the temple slaughtered is completely
> unthinkable for us and is a matter of grave concern," said Ramesh
> Kallidai, secretary-general of the Hindu Forum.. "It strikes at the
> very core of our beliefs."
> 
> He believes Shambo could be vaccinated and doesn't pose a risk to
> other animals or people.
> 
> However, the Welsh Assembly, which has responsibility for the matter,
> maintains that the bull must die.
> 
> "We fully understand that this can be distressing for the owners, but
> these measures are in place to protect public health and animal health
> and prevent the further spread of the disease," she said.

They can cure TB, so if thats the case with this sacred cow then Fine...
keep it in total isolation/quarantine until its cured, Otherwise it should
be put down.

Where did the cow get it from? (one of the congregation?)