Have you noticed how we no longer have experts? Now we have "analysts". 
Retail analysts, property analysts, financial analysts, computer analysts, 
we will have young Beanie on the telly soon as a shaggin analyst!

We don't have transporters, we have "logistic solutions", Personel has 
become "human resources", policemen on the beat are now "community officers" 
or some such drivel.

The problem is that nobody makes anything anymore. Hardly anyone can come 
home from work and say, with some pride, I built that or I helped make that! 
Nope, we are all "service analysts" which in reality means we do sfa except 
push paper about or keys on boards! So we invent names for ourselves. I'm no 
longer an old age pensioner, I'm a personal retirement analyst. That means I 
can spend all day spouting bullshit to anybody who cares to take exception 
to it and at the end of the day can say to myself, I posted that!

.....it should please you.

"Toooldtocare"  wrote in message 
news:m_GdnWO9FqmoBiDVRVnyvgA@bt.com...
> Have you noticed how we no longer have experts? Now we have "analysts". 
> Retail analysts, property analysts, financial analysts, computer analysts, 
> we will have young Beanie on the telly soon as a shaggin analyst!
>
> We don't have transporters, we have "logistic solutions", Personel has 
> become "human resources", policemen on the beat are now "community 
> officers" or some such drivel.
>
> The problem is that nobody makes anything anymore. Hardly anyone can come 
> home from work and say, with some pride, I built that or I helped make 
> that! Nope, we are all "service analysts" which in reality means we do sfa 
> except push paper about or keys on boards! So we invent names for 
> ourselves. I'm no longer an old age pensioner, I'm a personal retirement 
> analyst. That means I can spend all day spouting bullshit to anybody who 
> cares to take exception to it and at the end of the day can say to myself, 
> I posted that!


Nope, not mindless enough to be considered "mindless drivel"! ;-)

JB
x
>
>

"Toooldtocare"  wrote in message 
news:m_GdnWO9FqmoBiDVRVnyvgA@bt.com...
> Have you noticed how we no longer have experts? Now we have "analysts". 
> Retail analysts, property analysts, financial analysts, computer analysts, 
> we will have young Beanie on the telly soon as a shaggin analyst!

Probably because they don't actually seem to know much. I was listening to 
R4 this morning, about 6:30am. Some expert on companies who gave "perks" to 
share holders. I don't know if he was just mic shy but the presenter seemed 
to know the subject far better than he did. Given R4 presenters are usually 
pretty ill-informed, that says a lot.
>
> We don't have transporters, we have "logistic solutions", Personel has 
> become "human resources", policemen on the beat are now "community 
> officers" or some such drivel.

Been like that some time.


> The problem is that nobody makes anything anymore.

Now, that is a real problem and is of our own (historical) making. The 
"makers" (eg car makers and miners) wanted higher salaries, that pushed up 
the prices to a level no one wanted to pay, "management" didn't help, 
imports were cheap so people bought imported goods and UK firms went to the 
wall, jobs and all.

That left us with lots of people without skills for the jobs which were 
left, to which each year the traditional future manual workers from schools 
are added.

Gov. numbers are something like 1.7m unemployed. Now that doesn't stack up 
with the 3m households which don't have employed member, rather suggesting 
than unemployment is over  3m. It is seems that only 865,000 get JSA but, 
unless there  are a lot of people getting by on zero income from the state, 
the situation is costing those in work a lot of money.

Meanwhile, we are "importing" cheap labour to do jobs which the unemployed 
won't do and paying for (via EU payments) the "modernisation" of the "poor 
end" of Europe.

All this is being financed (in part) by punitive taxes on income, fuel, 
transport............

I don't pretend that their is one root cause to this situation but much of 
it goes back to the problems of the 60s and 70s when people's aspirations 
weren't balanced by their willingness to graft and "management" adopted some 
very short sighted policies.  Since then, the various governments have made 
some very short-sighted decisions- esp. re fuel sources.

No one currently in politics seems willing to grasp the nettle and I can see 
the situation continuing to bumble on.  The current "recession" is no more 
than a "blip", as we've seen before. I suspect we'd be on our way out of it 
if pundits (inc. Darling) would shut up. When I say "out of it" I mean back 
to bumbling on, as we've been doing for some years.

Brian

"JB"  wrote in message 
news:CbWdnTRmYbxNPiDVnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@bt.com...
>
> "Toooldtocare"  wrote in message 
> news:m_GdnWO9FqmoBiDVRVnyvgA@bt.com...
>> Have you noticed how we no longer have experts? Now we have "analysts". 
>> Retail analysts, property analysts, financial analysts, computer 
>> analysts, we will have young Beanie on the telly soon as a shaggin 
>> analyst!
>>
>> We don't have transporters, we have "logistic solutions", Personel has 
>> become "human resources", policemen on the beat are now "community 
>> officers" or some such drivel.
>>
>> The problem is that nobody makes anything anymore. Hardly anyone can come 
>> home from work and say, with some pride, I built that or I helped make 
>> that! Nope, we are all "service analysts" which in reality means we do 
>> sfa except push paper about or keys on boards! So we invent names for 
>> ourselves. I'm no longer an old age pensioner, I'm a personal retirement 
>> analyst. That means I can spend all day spouting bullshit to anybody who 
>> cares to take exception to it and at the end of the day can say to 
>> myself, I posted that!
>
>
> Nope, not mindless enough to be considered "mindless drivel"! ;-)

I'm out of practise! These yanks have plum worn my drivel skills out. 
Hopefully on Friday night, my serious drinking night, they will return. :-)

"Brian Reay" <see@website.invalid> wrote in message 
news:5Chvk.68936$le1.2892@newsfe11.ams2...
>
>
> "Toooldtocare"  wrote in message 
> news:m_GdnWO9FqmoBiDVRVnyvgA@bt.com...
>> Have you noticed how we no longer have experts? Now we have "analysts". 
>> Retail analysts, property analysts, financial analysts, computer 
>> analysts, we will have young Beanie on the telly soon as a shaggin 
>> analyst!
>
> Probably because they don't actually seem to know much. I was listening to 
> R4 this morning, about 6:30am. Some expert on companies who gave "perks" 
> to share holders. I don't know if he was just mic shy but the presenter 
> seemed to know the subject far better than he did. Given R4 presenters are 
> usually pretty ill-informed, that says a lot.
>>
>> We don't have transporters, we have "logistic solutions", Personel has 
>> become "human resources", policemen on the beat are now "community 
>> officers" or some such drivel.
>
> Been like that some time.
>
>
>> The problem is that nobody makes anything anymore.
>
> Now, that is a real problem and is of our own (historical) making. The 
> "makers" (eg car makers and miners) wanted higher salaries, that pushed up 
> the prices to a level no one wanted to pay, "management" didn't help, 
> imports were cheap so people bought imported goods and UK firms went to 
> the wall, jobs and all.
>
> That left us with lots of people without skills for the jobs which were 
> left, to which each year the traditional future manual workers from 
> schools are added.
>
> Gov. numbers are something like 1.7m unemployed. Now that doesn't stack up 
> with the 3m households which don't have employed member, rather suggesting 
> than unemployment is over  3m. It is seems that only 865,000 get JSA but, 
> unless there  are a lot of people getting by on zero income from the 
> state, the situation is costing those in work a lot of money.
>
> Meanwhile, we are "importing" cheap labour to do jobs which the unemployed 
> won't do and paying for (via EU payments) the "modernisation" of the "poor 
> end" of Europe.
>
> All this is being financed (in part) by punitive taxes on income, fuel, 
> transport............
>
> I don't pretend that their is one root cause to this situation but much of 
> it goes back to the problems of the 60s and 70s when people's aspirations 
> weren't balanced by their willingness to graft and "management" adopted 
> some very short sighted policies.  Since then, the various governments 
> have made some very short-sighted decisions- esp. re fuel sources.
>

Regrettably, I can find nothing to disagree with any of that.

> No one currently in politics seems willing to grasp the nettle and I can 
> see the situation continuing to bumble on.  The current "recession" is no 
> more than a "blip", as we've seen before. I suspect we'd be on our way out 
> of it if pundits (inc. Darling) would shut up. When I say "out of it" I 
> mean back to bumbling on, as we've been doing for some years.

A "blip"?, that's a bit more debatable. But not tonight. Time will tell 
anyway.


>
>

"Toooldtocare"  wrote in message 
news:wdCdnejqIfHOLCDVnZ2dnUVZ8h-dnZ2d@bt.com...
 >
> A "blip"?, that's a bit more debatable. But not tonight. Time will tell 
> anyway.


Notice the "" around blip.

The current problem started due to a crisis of confidence and was nudged by 
the cost of fuel (and its knock on).

Next, everyone in the UK is worrying about negative equity, interest rates, 
and inflation. The last two aren't high by UK standards, we've seen far 
worse in the last 20 years. Fuel prices are high but artificially so due to 
taxes (petrol is around 52p / litre in the USA and they buy their oil on the 
same market as we do and, until the last few days, the high £ to $ should 
have worked in our favour).

Negative equity is largely a manufactured fear.  You pay £200k for your 
house and have a 100% mortgage. Unless you have to sell (inc. a repro) the 
fact that the value of your house drops to £20k doesn't actually impact your 
day to day finances.  Now, if you are forced to sell you have a problem but 
it is the factor which forces you to sell (inc. a repro) which is the cause.

You may think the difference is arguing over details but, as long as we mask 
the real problems with manufactured fears, we will continue on this roller 
coaster.


Brian

"Toooldtocare"  wrote in message 
news:m_GdnWO9FqmoBiDVRVnyvgA@bt.com...
> Have you noticed how we no longer have experts? Now we have "analysts". 
> Retail analysts, property analysts, financial analysts, computer analysts, 
> we will have young Beanie on the telly soon as a shaggin analyst!
>
> We don't have transporters, we have "logistic solutions", Personel has 
> become "human resources", policemen on the beat are now "community 
> officers" or some such drivel.
>
> The problem is that nobody makes anything anymore. Hardly anyone can come 
> home from work and say, with some pride, I built that or I helped make 
> that! Nope, we are all "service analysts" which in reality means we do sfa 
> except push paper about or keys on boards! So we invent names for 
> ourselves. I'm no longer an old age pensioner, I'm a personal retirement 
> analyst. That means I can spend all day spouting bullshit to anybody who 
> cares to take exception to it and at the end of the day can say to myself, 
> I posted that!

Sorry, but i know quite a few respected experts in a few fields.  They do 
exist.  I come home happy that i've built something most days... something 
new that keeps a business going.  I don't manufacture anything though so 
half agree. 


** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

"Toooldtocare"  wrote in message 
news:m_GdnWO9FqmoBiDVRVnyvgA@bt.com...

> The problem is that nobody makes anything anymore. Hardly anyone can come 
> home from work and say, with some pride, I built that or I helped make 
> that!


Reminds me of the old joke.

"Do they say here comes Smith the architect or here comes Smith the bridge 
builder"?

"But suck one ****"!

Nigel Brooks

"Nigel Brooks"  wrote in message 
news:6i7u3uFpftubU1@mid.individual.net...
>
>
> "Toooldtocare"  wrote in message 
> news:m_GdnWO9FqmoBiDVRVnyvgA@bt.com...
>
>> The problem is that nobody makes anything anymore. Hardly anyone can come 
>> home from work and say, with some pride, I built that or I helped make 
>> that!
>
>
> Reminds me of the old joke.
>
> "Do they say here comes Smith the architect or here comes Smith the bridge 
> builder"?
>
> "But suck one ****"!
>
> Nigel Brooks

The version I first heard was " - but just sh*g one sheep  - Oh, yes!! 
That'll get your name in the papers alright!"
-- 
Harry Keane

"Toooldtocare"  wrote in message 
news:m_GdnWO9FqmoBiDVRVnyvgA@bt.com...
> Have you noticed how we no longer have experts? Now we have "analysts". 
> Retail analysts, property analysts, financial analysts, computer analysts, 
> we will have young Beanie on the telly soon as a shaggin analyst!
>
> We don't have transporters, we have "logistic solutions", Personel has 
> become "human resources", policemen on the beat are now "community 
> officers" or some such drivel.
>
> The problem is that nobody makes anything anymore. Hardly anyone can come 
> home from work and say, with some pride, I built that or I helped make 
> that! Nope, we are all "service analysts" which in reality means we do sfa 
> except push paper about or keys on boards! So we invent names for 
> ourselves. I'm no longer an old age pensioner, I'm a personal retirement 
> analyst. That means I can spend all day spouting bullshit to anybody who 
> cares to take exception to it and at the end of the day can say to myself, 
> I posted that!
>

Its not mindless drivel, you have just found me my vocation in life ;)

"Brian Reay" <see@website.invalid> wrote in message 
news:xJivk.106072$6p1.19584@newsfe19.ams2...
>
> "Toooldtocare"  wrote in message 
> news:wdCdnejqIfHOLCDVnZ2dnUVZ8h-dnZ2d@bt.com...
> >
>> A "blip"?, that's a bit more debatable. But not tonight. Time will tell 
>> anyway.
>
>
> Notice the "" around blip.
>
> The current problem started due to a crisis of confidence and was nudged 
> by the cost of fuel (and its knock on).

No it didn't.

> Next, everyone in the UK is worrying about negative equity, interest 
> rates, and inflation. The last two aren't high by UK standards, we've seen 
> far worse in the last 20 years. Fuel prices are high but artificially so 
> due to taxes (petrol is around 52p / litre in the USA and they buy their 
> oil on the

No they're not!

> same market as we do and, until the last few days, the high £ to $ should 
> have worked in our favour).
>
> Negative equity is largely a manufactured fear.  You pay £200k for your

wtf are you talking about?  What's a "manufactured fear"?  Did you just make 
that up?  Are you saying that not being able to sell up and downsize your 
house because you paid more for it than it is worth is all in the mind?

> house and have a 100% mortgage. Unless you have to sell (inc. a repro) the 
> fact that the value of your house drops to £20k doesn't actually impact 
> your day to day finances.  Now, if you are forced to sell you have a 
> problem but

Yes it does - if you don't need to live in that house any more.

> it is the factor which forces you to sell (inc. a repro) which is the 
> cause.
>
> You may think the difference is arguing over details but, as long as we 
> mask the real problems with manufactured fears, we will continue on this 
> roller coaster.

Once again you are applying the parameters of your life to everyone else in 
the country...

This is a simplistic, insular and selfish way to look at problems - almost 
child like.  None of these fears are manufactured - ask someone who's 
outgoings are £1500 per month but can't sell their house to downsize if 
negative equity is a manufactured fear and doesn't affect their disposable 
income.  Ask the small businessman that operates on an overdraft who gets a 
letter from the bank saying they need to pay back the overdraft in 30 days 
if its all in their head.

Ask someone who derives their income from a simple 5% interest on their 
invested capital if inflation and interest rates are something we're all 
making a silly fuss about.

You should stick with commenting on issues you understand and have 
experience of (rolling condoms on bananas and chalk rubber technology I 
presume) if you don't have the bredth of experience and social exposure to 
understand people's personal finances are infinitely different on many 
different levels.  You display a smugness common in those who belong to one 
of the few Govt protected, "job for life", no risk careers.  You'll soon 
change your tune when someone works out how over stuffed your profession is 
and starts cutting jobs or shipping them abroad. 


** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

"The Hatter"  wrote in message 
news:bf83a$48bfcf06$14643@news.teranews.com...
>
> "Brian Reay" <see@website.invalid> wrote in message 
> news:xJivk.106072$6p1.19584@newsfe19.ams2...
>>
>> "Toooldtocare"  wrote in message 
>> news:wdCdnejqIfHOLCDVnZ2dnUVZ8h-dnZ2d@bt.com...
>> >
>>> A "blip"?, that's a bit more debatable. But not tonight. Time will tell 
>>> anyway.
>>
>>
>> Notice the "" around blip.
>>
>> The current problem started due to a crisis of confidence and was nudged 
>> by the cost of fuel (and its knock on).
>
> No it didn't.
>
>> Next, everyone in the UK is worrying about negative equity, interest 
>> rates, and inflation. The last two aren't high by UK standards, we've 
>> seen far worse in the last 20 years. Fuel prices are high but 
>> artificially so due to taxes (petrol is around 52p / litre in the USA and 
>> they buy their oil on the
>
> No they're not!

What aren't?

>> same market as we do and, until the last few days, the high £ to $ should 
>> have worked in our favour).
>>
>> Negative equity is largely a manufactured fear.  You pay £200k for your
>
> wtf are you talking about?  What's a "manufactured fear"?  Did you just 
> make that up?  Are you saying that not being able to sell up and downsize 
> your house because you paid more for it than it is worth is all in the 
> mind?
>
>> house and have a 100% mortgage. Unless you have to sell (inc. a repro) 
>> the fact that the value of your house drops to £20k doesn't actually 
>> impact your day to day finances.  Now, if you are forced to sell you have 
>> a problem but
>
> Yes it does - if you don't need to live in that house any more.


Hence I said "unless you have to sell".

>> it is the factor which forces you to sell (inc. a repro) which is the 
>> cause.
>>
>> You may think the difference is arguing over details but, as long as we 
>> mask the real problems with manufactured fears, we will continue on this 
>> roller coaster.
>
> Once again you are applying the parameters of your life to everyone else 
> in the country...

Not so. However, you clearly did not read what I said before getting into a 
tantrum.

I suggest you try again.

>
> This is a simplistic, insular and selfish way to look at problems - almost 
> child like.  None of these fears are manufactured - ask someone who's 
> outgoings are £1500 per month but can't sell their house to downsize if 
> negative equity is a manufactured fear and doesn't affect their disposable 
> income.  Ask the small businessman that operates on an overdraft who gets 
> a letter from the bank saying they need to pay back the overdraft in 30 
> days if its all in their head.
>
> Ask someone who derives their income from a simple 5% interest on their 
> invested capital if inflation and interest rates are something we're all 
> making a silly fuss about.
>
> You should stick with commenting on issues you understand and have 
> experience of (rolling condoms on bananas and chalk rubber technology I 
> presume) if you don't have the bredth of experience and social exposure to 
> understand people's personal finances are infinitely different on many 
> different levels.  You display a smugness common in those who belong to 
> one of the few Govt protected, "job for life", no risk careers.  You'll 
> soon change your tune when someone works out how over stuffed your 
> profession is and starts cutting jobs or shipping them abroad.

Oh dear, you seem to have thrown all your tools out of your pram.

Do be a good boy and pick them up.

Brian

> "Brian Reay" <see@website.invalid> wrote in message
> news:xJivk.106072$6p1.19584@newsfe19.ams2...



>> You may think the difference is arguing over details but, as long as we
>> mask the real problems with manufactured fears, we will continue on this
>> roller coaster.

Well, what are the "problems"? It is that the economy is totally dependent
on rising house values. If house prices rise people feel richer, borrow
more, spend more, and according to Brown (not now but a few years ago) means
we are in a virtuous circle of growth. The only trouble with that theory was
it was phoney. It relied on increasing levels of debt, both personal and
national, which one day would become unsustainable. That day is now!

It was not manufactured that the OECD forecasts the UK to be the only
industrialised country heading for recession. It is not manufactured that
the pound is sinking like a stone, unemployment rising, inflation taking
off. It is due to the reckless spending by this government of our money
which many borrowed. Personal debt is now greater than the UK's GDP! Now the
housing bubble has burst, the economy is going down the tubes. It is
ridiculous and irresponsible that the government should have got us into
this mess. And we will continue on a downward spiral all the time the
government's only concern is the housing market. Did you notice that the BoE
was seriously contemplating *reducing* interest rates today? At a time of
rising inflation? More short termism by a reckless authority which has
forgotten its sole mandate was to keep inflation under 2.5%. Another quango
that has failed us miserably.

Until this government and future governments wake up to what is important,
and that is improving our productive capacity and encouraging innovation to
supply things that the rest of the world needs, then we will continue on a
steady social and economic decline. No amount of saying it is not so will
help. We are past wishful thinking.

"Not Today"  wrote in message
news:25lvbt.f6g.19.1@news.alt.net...
>
> > "Brian Reay" <see@website.invalid> wrote in message
> > news:xJivk.106072$6p1.19584@newsfe19.ams2...
>
>
>
> >> You may think the difference is arguing over details but, as long as we
> >> mask the real problems with manufactured fears, we will continue on
this
> >> roller coaster.
>
> Well, what are the "problems"? It is that the economy is totally dependent
> on rising house values. If house prices rise people feel richer, borrow
> more, spend more, and according to Brown (not now but a few years ago)
means
> we are in a virtuous circle of growth. The only trouble with that theory
was
> it was phoney. It relied on increasing levels of debt, both personal and
> national, which one day would become unsustainable. That day is now!
>
> It was not manufactured that the OECD forecasts the UK to be the only
> industrialised country heading for recession. It is not manufactured that
> the pound is sinking like a stone, unemployment rising, inflation taking
> off. It is due to the reckless spending by this government of our money
> which many borrowed. Personal debt is now greater than the UK's GDP! Now
the
> housing bubble has burst, the economy is going down the tubes. It is
> ridiculous and irresponsible that the government should have got us into
> this mess. And we will continue on a downward spiral all the time the
> government's only concern is the housing market. Did you notice that the
BoE
> was seriously contemplating *reducing* interest rates today? At a time of
> rising inflation? More short termism by a reckless authority which has
> forgotten its sole mandate was to keep inflation under 2.5%. Another
quango
> that has failed us miserably.
>
> Until this government and future governments wake up to what is important,
> and that is improving our productive capacity and encouraging innovation
to
> supply things that the rest of the world needs, then we will continue on a
> steady social and economic decline. No amount of saying it is not so will
> help. We are past wishful thinking.
>
>
>
There is one problem ,every time the UK comes up with a viable or innovative
product  they sell the company .How many car companies are British owned
these days ,I can think of one ,Morgan. If he government keeps going the way
they are it will probably be out of business due to government enviromental
requirements.

Reading the times yesterday they had an article on the new " road tax" they
are proposing based on where you live and where you are travelling to.How
can you sit by and allow them to do that ,the taxpayer paid for the rights
of way ,paid for the roads to be built and pays for their upkeep .So where
does the government get off on such stuff with the exception of obeying the
law

"mike hide"  wrote in message
news:WqGdnW5GWJNFx13VnZ2dnUVZ_vednZ2d@comcast.com...
>
> "Not Today"  wrote in message
> news:25lvbt.f6g.19.1@news.alt.net...
>>
>> > "Brian Reay" <see@website.invalid> wrote in message
>> > news:xJivk.106072$6p1.19584@newsfe19.ams2...
>>
>>
>>
>> >> You may think the difference is arguing over details but, as long as
>> >> we
>> >> mask the real problems with manufactured fears, we will continue on
> this
>> >> roller coaster.
>>
>> Well, what are the "problems"? It is that the economy is totally
>> dependent
>> on rising house values. If house prices rise people feel richer, borrow
>> more, spend more, and according to Brown (not now but a few years ago)
> means
>> we are in a virtuous circle of growth. The only trouble with that theory
> was
>> it was phoney. It relied on increasing levels of debt, both personal and
>> national, which one day would become unsustainable. That day is now!
>>
>> It was not manufactured that the OECD forecasts the UK to be the only
>> industrialised country heading for recession. It is not manufactured that
>> the pound is sinking like a stone, unemployment rising, inflation taking
>> off. It is due to the reckless spending by this government of our money
>> which many borrowed. Personal debt is now greater than the UK's GDP! Now
> the
>> housing bubble has burst, the economy is going down the tubes. It is
>> ridiculous and irresponsible that the government should have got us into
>> this mess. And we will continue on a downward spiral all the time the
>> government's only concern is the housing market. Did you notice that the
> BoE
>> was seriously contemplating *reducing* interest rates today? At a time of
>> rising inflation? More short termism by a reckless authority which has
>> forgotten its sole mandate was to keep inflation under 2.5%. Another
> quango
>> that has failed us miserably.
>>
>> Until this government and future governments wake up to what is
>> important,
>> and that is improving our productive capacity and encouraging innovation
> to
>> supply things that the rest of the world needs, then we will continue on
>> a
>> steady social and economic decline. No amount of saying it is not so will
>> help. We are past wishful thinking.
>>
>>
>>
> There is one problem ,every time the UK comes up with a viable or
> innovative
> product  they sell the company .How many car companies are British owned
> these days ,I can think of one ,Morgan. If he government keeps going the
> way
> they are it will probably be out of business due to government
> enviromental
> requirements.

The US has bigger problems than we have in that regard, that is if you
consider it a problem. Personally I do not. Take a look at this:

http://www.economyincrisis.org/

The crisis coming up for the US is who owns its public debt. Half of it is
owned by foreigners, mostly China and Japan. If they decide to sell those
dollars it is goodbye US!

"Not Today"  wrote in message 
news:25mcm7.l7.19.1@news.alt.net...
>
> "mike hide"  wrote in message
> news:WqGdnW5GWJNFx13VnZ2dnUVZ_vednZ2d@comcast.com...
>>
>> "Not Today"  wrote in message
>> news:25lvbt.f6g.19.1@news.alt.net...
>>>
>>> > "Brian Reay" <see@website.invalid> wrote in message
>>> > news:xJivk.106072$6p1.19584@newsfe19.ams2...
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> >> You may think the difference is arguing over details but, as long as
>>> >> we
>>> >> mask the real problems with manufactured fears, we will continue on
>> this
>>> >> roller coaster.
>>>
>>> Well, what are the "problems"? It is that the economy is totally
>>> dependent
>>> on rising house values. If house prices rise people feel richer, borrow
>>> more, spend more, and according to Brown (not now but a few years ago)
>> means
>>> we are in a virtuous circle of growth. The only trouble with that theory
>> was
>>> it was phoney. It relied on increasing levels of debt, both personal and
>>> national, which one day would become unsustainable. That day is now!
>>>
>>> It was not manufactured that the OECD forecasts the UK to be the only
>>> industrialised country heading for recession. It is not manufactured 
>>> that
>>> the pound is sinking like a stone, unemployment rising, inflation taking
>>> off. It is due to the reckless spending by this government of our money
>>> which many borrowed. Personal debt is now greater than the UK's GDP! Now
>> the
>>> housing bubble has burst, the economy is going down the tubes. It is
>>> ridiculous and irresponsible that the government should have got us into
>>> this mess. And we will continue on a downward spiral all the time the
>>> government's only concern is the housing market. Did you notice that the
>> BoE
>>> was seriously contemplating *reducing* interest rates today? At a time 
>>> of
>>> rising inflation? More short termism by a reckless authority which has
>>> forgotten its sole mandate was to keep inflation under 2.5%. Another
>> quango
>>> that has failed us miserably.
>>>
>>> Until this government and future governments wake up to what is
>>> important,
>>> and that is improving our productive capacity and encouraging innovation
>> to
>>> supply things that the rest of the world needs, then we will continue on
>>> a
>>> steady social and economic decline. No amount of saying it is not so 
>>> will
>>> help. We are past wishful thinking.
>>>
>>>
>>>
>> There is one problem ,every time the UK comes up with a viable or
>> innovative
>> product  they sell the company .How many car companies are British owned
>> these days ,I can think of one ,Morgan. If he government keeps going the
>> way
>> they are it will probably be out of business due to government
>> enviromental
>> requirements.
>
> The US has bigger problems than we have in that regard, that is if you
> consider it a problem. Personally I do not. Take a look at this:
>
> http://www.economyincrisis.org/
>
> The crisis coming up for the US is who owns its public debt. Half of it is
> owned by foreigners, mostly China and Japan. If they decide to sell those
> dollars it is goodbye US!
>

Naaaa - We'll just nuke the greedy bastards.

Nigel Brooks

"Nigel Brooks"  wrote in message 
news:6ibe22Fpv1o2U1@mid.individual.net...
>
>
> "Not Today"  wrote in message 
> news:25mcm7.l7.19.1@news.alt.net...
>>
>> "mike hide"  wrote in message
>> news:WqGdnW5GWJNFx13VnZ2dnUVZ_vednZ2d@comcast.com...
>>>
>>> "Not Today"  wrote in message
>>> news:25lvbt.f6g.19.1@news.alt.net...
>>>>
>>>> > "Brian Reay" <see@website.invalid> wrote in message
>>>> > news:xJivk.106072$6p1.19584@newsfe19.ams2...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> >> You may think the difference is arguing over details but, as long as
>>>> >> we
>>>> >> mask the real problems with manufactured fears, we will continue on
>>> this
>>>> >> roller coaster.
>>>>
>>>> Well, what are the "problems"? It is that the economy is totally
>>>> dependent
>>>> on rising house values. If house prices rise people feel richer, borrow
>>>> more, spend more, and according to Brown (not now but a few years ago)
>>> means
>>>> we are in a virtuous circle of growth. The only trouble with that 
>>>> theory
>>> was
>>>> it was phoney. It relied on increasing levels of debt, both personal 
>>>> and
>>>> national, which one day would become unsustainable. That day is now!
>>>>
>>>> It was not manufactured that the OECD forecasts the UK to be the only
>>>> industrialised country heading for recession. It is not manufactured 
>>>> that
>>>> the pound is sinking like a stone, unemployment rising, inflation 
>>>> taking
>>>> off. It is due to the reckless spending by this government of our money
>>>> which many borrowed. Personal debt is now greater than the UK's GDP! 
>>>> Now
>>> the
>>>> housing bubble has burst, the economy is going down the tubes. It is
>>>> ridiculous and irresponsible that the government should have got us 
>>>> into
>>>> this mess. And we will continue on a downward spiral all the time the
>>>> government's only concern is the housing market. Did you notice that 
>>>> the
>>> BoE
>>>> was seriously contemplating *reducing* interest rates today? At a time 
>>>> of
>>>> rising inflation? More short termism by a reckless authority which has
>>>> forgotten its sole mandate was to keep inflation under 2.5%. Another
>>> quango
>>>> that has failed us miserably.
>>>>
>>>> Until this government and future governments wake up to what is
>>>> important,
>>>> and that is improving our productive capacity and encouraging 
>>>> innovation
>>> to
>>>> supply things that the rest of the world needs, then we will continue 
>>>> on
>>>> a
>>>> steady social and economic decline. No amount of saying it is not so 
>>>> will
>>>> help. We are past wishful thinking.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>> There is one problem ,every time the UK comes up with a viable or
>>> innovative
>>> product  they sell the company .How many car companies are British owned
>>> these days ,I can think of one ,Morgan. If he government keeps going the
>>> way
>>> they are it will probably be out of business due to government
>>> enviromental
>>> requirements.
>>
>> The US has bigger problems than we have in that regard, that is if you
>> consider it a problem. Personally I do not. Take a look at this:
>>
>> http://www.economyincrisis.org/
>>
>> The crisis coming up for the US is who owns its public debt. Half of it 
>> is
>> owned by foreigners, mostly China and Japan. If they decide to sell those
>> dollars it is goodbye US!
>>
>
> Naaaa - We'll just nuke the greedy bastards.
>
> Nigel Brooks


p.s. It is Friday already?

Nigel Brooks

"Not Today"  wrote in message
news:25mcm7.l7.19.1@news.alt.net...
>
> "mike hide"  wrote in message
> news:WqGdnW5GWJNFx13VnZ2dnUVZ_vednZ2d@comcast.com...
> >
> > "Not Today"  wrote in message
> > news:25lvbt.f6g.19.1@news.alt.net...
> >>
> >> > "Brian Reay" <see@website.invalid> wrote in message
> >> > news:xJivk.106072$6p1.19584@newsfe19.ams2...
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> >> You may think the difference is arguing over details but, as long as
> >> >> we
> >> >> mask the real problems with manufactured fears, we will continue on
> > this
> >> >> roller coaster.
> >>
> >> Well, what are the "problems"? It is that the economy is totally
> >> dependent
> >> on rising house values. If house prices rise people feel richer, borrow
> >> more, spend more, and according to Brown (not now but a few years ago)
> > means
> >> we are in a virtuous circle of growth. The only trouble with that
theory
> > was
> >> it was phoney. It relied on increasing levels of debt, both personal
and
> >> national, which one day would become unsustainable. That day is now!
> >>
> >> It was not manufactured that the OECD forecasts the UK to be the only
> >> industrialised country heading for recession. It is not manufactured
that
> >> the pound is sinking like a stone, unemployment rising, inflation
taking
> >> off. It is due to the reckless spending by this government of our money
> >> which many borrowed. Personal debt is now greater than the UK's GDP!
Now
> > the
> >> housing bubble has burst, the economy is going down the tubes. It is
> >> ridiculous and irresponsible that the government should have got us
into
> >> this mess. And we will continue on a downward spiral all the time the
> >> government's only concern is the housing market. Did you notice that
the
> > BoE
> >> was seriously contemplating *reducing* interest rates today? At a time
of
> >> rising inflation? More short termism by a reckless authority which has
> >> forgotten its sole mandate was to keep inflation under 2.5%. Another
> > quango
> >> that has failed us miserably.
> >>
> >> Until this government and future governments wake up to what is
> >> important,
> >> and that is improving our productive capacity and encouraging
innovation
> > to
> >> supply things that the rest of the world needs, then we will continue
on
> >> a
> >> steady social and economic decline. No amount of saying it is not so
will
> >> help. We are past wishful thinking.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> > There is one problem ,every time the UK comes up with a viable or
> > innovative
> > product  they sell the company .How many car companies are British owned
> > these days ,I can think of one ,Morgan. If he government keeps going the
> > way
> > they are it will probably be out of business due to government
> > enviromental
> > requirements.
>
> The US has bigger problems than we have in that regard, that is if you
> consider it a problem. Personally I do not. Take a look at this:
>
> http://www.economyincrisis.org/
>
> The crisis coming up for the US is who owns its public debt. Half of it is
> owned by foreigners, mostly China and Japan. If they decide to sell those
> dollars it is goodbye US!
>
>
>
>
>
> If it's goodby US ,who will they sell their products to. I suppose the US
differs from most countries in that they have all the raw materials
including gas and oil and have plenty of agricultural capacity to feed them
selves plus some. In addition the society is pretty stable,thats why people
invest here. Of course the other half + of the national debt is owned by
Americans.

I guess as one of the posters mentioned earlier few have the satisfaction of
producing anything anymore, truth is the UK opted for what was called a
"service Economy" many years ago. The British are in my mind a very
inventive lot, they come up with all kinds of innovations ,problem is they
never seem to have the money to develop them.  A prime instance is the mini
they never would comply with the US crash and emissions requirements so they
could not make a go of it and BMW bought them out .IN the US you have to go
on awaiting list to get one,they sell like hot cakes and are pretty pricey.
Everytime I see one I think why can BMW make money on them and not the
British. This happens over and over....

"Brian Reay" <see@website.invalid> wrote in message 
news:ZPSvk.268463$ah4.215176@newsfe15.ams2...
>
>
> "The Hatter"  wrote in message 
> news:bf83a$48bfcf06$14643@news.teranews.com...
>>
>> "Brian Reay" <see@website.invalid> wrote in message 
>> news:xJivk.106072$6p1.19584@newsfe19.ams2...
>>>
>>> "Toooldtocare"  wrote in message 
>>> news:wdCdnejqIfHOLCDVnZ2dnUVZ8h-dnZ2d@bt.com...
>>> >
>>>> A "blip"?, that's a bit more debatable. But not tonight. Time will tell 
>>>> anyway.
>>>
>>>
>>> Notice the "" around blip.
>>>
>>> The current problem started due to a crisis of confidence and was nudged 
>>> by the cost of fuel (and its knock on).
>>
>> No it didn't.
>>
>>> Next, everyone in the UK is worrying about negative equity, interest 
>>> rates, and inflation. The last two aren't high by UK standards, we've 
>>> seen far worse in the last 20 years. Fuel prices are high but 
>>> artificially so due to taxes (petrol is around 52p / litre in the USA 
>>> and they buy their oil on the
>>
>> No they're not!
>
> What aren't?
>
>>> same market as we do and, until the last few days, the high £ to $ 
>>> should have worked in our favour).
>>>
>>> Negative equity is largely a manufactured fear.  You pay £200k for your
>>
>> wtf are you talking about?  What's a "manufactured fear"?  Did you just 
>> make that up?  Are you saying that not being able to sell up and downsize 
>> your house because you paid more for it than it is worth is all in the 
>> mind?
>>
>>> house and have a 100% mortgage. Unless you have to sell (inc. a repro) 
>>> the fact that the value of your house drops to £20k doesn't actually 
>>> impact your day to day finances.  Now, if you are forced to sell you 
>>> have a problem but
>>
>> Yes it does - if you don't need to live in that house any more.
>
>
> Hence I said "unless you have to sell".
>
>>> it is the factor which forces you to sell (inc. a repro) which is the 
>>> cause.
>>>
>>> You may think the difference is arguing over details but, as long as we 
>>> mask the real problems with manufactured fears, we will continue on this 
>>> roller coaster.
>>
>> Once again you are applying the parameters of your life to everyone else 
>> in the country...
>
> Not so. However, you clearly did not read what I said before getting into 
> a tantrum.
>
> I suggest you try again.
>
>>
>> This is a simplistic, insular and selfish way to look at problems - 
>> almost child like.  None of these fears are manufactured - ask someone 
>> who's outgoings are £1500 per month but can't sell their house to 
>> downsize if negative equity is a manufactured fear and doesn't affect 
>> their disposable income.  Ask the small businessman that operates on an 
>> overdraft who gets a letter from the bank saying they need to pay back 
>> the overdraft in 30 days if its all in their head.
>>
>> Ask someone who derives their income from a simple 5% interest on their 
>> invested capital if inflation and interest rates are something we're all 
>> making a silly fuss about.
>>
>> You should stick with commenting on issues you understand and have 
>> experience of (rolling condoms on bananas and chalk rubber technology I 
>> presume) if you don't have the bredth of experience and social exposure 
>> to understand people's personal finances are infinitely different on many 
>> different levels.  You display a smugness common in those who belong to 
>> one of the few Govt protected, "job for life", no risk careers.  You'll 
>> soon change your tune when someone works out how over stuffed your 
>> profession is and starts cutting jobs or shipping them abroad.
>
> Oh dear, you seem to have thrown all your tools out of your pram.
>
> Do be a good boy and pick them up.

Not at all, a fairly robust response I thought and perfectly balanced if I 
say so myself.  If ridicule is the best you can do I presume you've not got 
an answer to my points. 


** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

"The Hatter"  wrote in message 
news:6e0c7$48c10ade$12558@news.teranews.com...
>
> "Brian Reay" <see@website.invalid> wrote in message 
> news:ZPSvk.268463$ah4.215176@newsfe15.ams2...
>>
>>
>> "The Hatter"  wrote in message 
>> news:bf83a$48bfcf06$14643@news.teranews.com...
>>>
>>> "Brian Reay" <see@website.invalid> wrote in message 
>>> news:xJivk.106072$6p1.19584@newsfe19.ams2...
>>>>
>>>> "Toooldtocare"  wrote in message 
>>>> news:wdCdnejqIfHOLCDVnZ2dnUVZ8h-dnZ2d@bt.com...
>>>> >
>>>>> A "blip"?, that's a bit more debatable. But not tonight. Time will 
>>>>> tell anyway.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Notice the "" around blip.
>>>>
>>>> The current problem started due to a crisis of confidence and was 
>>>> nudged by the cost of fuel (and its knock on).
>>>
>>> No it didn't.
>>>
>>>> Next, everyone in the UK is worrying about negative equity, interest 
>>>> rates, and inflation. The last two aren't high by UK standards, we've 
>>>> seen far worse in the last 20 years. Fuel prices are high but 
>>>> artificially so due to taxes (petrol is around 52p / litre in the USA 
>>>> and they buy their oil on the
>>>
>>> No they're not!
>>
>> What aren't?
>>
>>>> same market as we do and, until the last few days, the high £ to $ 
>>>> should have worked in our favour).
>>>>
>>>> Negative equity is largely a manufactured fear.  You pay £200k for your
>>>
>>> wtf are you talking about?  What's a "manufactured fear"?  Did you just 
>>> make that up?  Are you saying that not being able to sell up and 
>>> downsize your house because you paid more for it than it is worth is all 
>>> in the mind?
>>>
>>>> house and have a 100% mortgage. Unless you have to sell (inc. a repro) 
>>>> the fact that the value of your house drops to £20k doesn't actually 
>>>> impact your day to day finances.  Now, if you are forced to sell you 
>>>> have a problem but
>>>
>>> Yes it does - if you don't need to live in that house any more.
>>
>>
>> Hence I said "unless you have to sell".
>>
>>>> it is the factor which forces you to sell (inc. a repro) which is the 
>>>> cause.
>>>>
>>>> You may think the difference is arguing over details but, as long as we 
>>>> mask the real problems with manufactured fears, we will continue on 
>>>> this roller coaster.
>>>
>>> Once again you are applying the parameters of your life to everyone else 
>>> in the country...
>>
>> Not so. However, you clearly did not read what I said before getting into 
>> a tantrum.
>>
>> I suggest you try again.
>>
>>>
>>> This is a simplistic, insular and selfish way to look at problems - 
>>> almost child like.  None of these fears are manufactured - ask someone 
>>> who's outgoings are £1500 per month but can't sell their house to 
>>> downsize if negative equity is a manufactured fear and doesn't affect 
>>> their disposable income.  Ask the small businessman that operates on an 
>>> overdraft who gets a letter from the bank saying they need to pay back 
>>> the overdraft in 30 days if its all in their head.
>>>
>>> Ask someone who derives their income from a simple 5% interest on their 
>>> invested capital if inflation and interest rates are something we're all 
>>> making a silly fuss about.
>>>
>>> You should stick with commenting on issues you understand and have 
>>> experience of (rolling condoms on bananas and chalk rubber technology I 
>>> presume) if you don't have the bredth of experience and social exposure 
>>> to understand people's personal finances are infinitely different on 
>>> many different levels.  You display a smugness common in those who 
>>> belong to one of the few Govt protected, "job for life", no risk 
>>> careers.  You'll soon change your tune when someone works out how over 
>>> stuffed your profession is and starts cutting jobs or shipping them 
>>> abroad.
>>
>> Oh dear, you seem to have thrown all your tools out of your pram.
>>
>> Do be a good boy and pick them up.
>
> Not at all, a fairly robust response I thought and perfectly balanced if I 
> say so myself.  If ridicule is the best you can do I presume you've not 
> got an answer to my points.

Robust reponses do seem to be out of favour these days. Time was when the 
recipient of a robust response gloried in it, it was something to get your 
teeth into. It's hard work these days watching your words in case you upset 
some sensitive soul. I called "creationists" and "fundamentalists" crackpots 
the other day. Apparently that goes for name calling rather than the truth! 
:-)

"Toooldtocare"  wrote in message 
news:yc2dnRG1j9KCjFzVnZ2dnUVZ8u6dnZ2d@bt.com...
>
> "The Hatter"  wrote in message 
> news:6e0c7$48c10ade$12558@news.teranews.com...
>>
>> "Brian Reay" <see@website.invalid> wrote in message 
>> news:ZPSvk.268463$ah4.215176@newsfe15.ams2...
>>>
>>>
>>> "The Hatter"  wrote in message 
>>> news:bf83a$48bfcf06$14643@news.teranews.com...
>>>>
>>>> "Brian Reay" <see@website.invalid> wrote in message 
>>>> news:xJivk.106072$6p1.19584@newsfe19.ams2...
>>>>>
>>>>> "Toooldtocare"  wrote in message 
>>>>> news:wdCdnejqIfHOLCDVnZ2dnUVZ8h-dnZ2d@bt.com...
>>>>> >
>>>>>> A "blip"?, that's a bit more debatable. But not tonight. Time will 
>>>>>> tell anyway.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> Notice the "" around blip.
>>>>>
>>>>> The current problem started due to a crisis of confidence and was 
>>>>> nudged by the cost of fuel (and its knock on).
>>>>
>>>> No it didn't.
>>>>
>>>>> Next, everyone in the UK is worrying about negative equity, interest 
>>>>> rates, and inflation. The last two aren't high by UK standards, we've 
>>>>> seen far worse in the last 20 years. Fuel prices are high but 
>>>>> artificially so due to taxes (petrol is around 52p / litre in the USA 
>>>>> and they buy their oil on the
>>>>
>>>> No they're not!
>>>
>>> What aren't?
>>>
>>>>> same market as we do and, until the last few days, the high £ to $ 
>>>>> should have worked in our favour).
>>>>>
>>>>> Negative equity is largely a manufactured fear.  You pay £200k for 
>>>>> your
>>>>
>>>> wtf are you talking about?  What's a "manufactured fear"?  Did you just 
>>>> make that up?  Are you saying that not being able to sell up and 
>>>> downsize your house because you paid more for it than it is worth is 
>>>> all in the mind?
>>>>
>>>>> house and have a 100% mortgage. Unless you have to sell (inc. a repro) 
>>>>> the fact that the value of your house drops to £20k doesn't actually 
>>>>> impact your day to day finances.  Now, if you are forced to sell you 
>>>>> have a problem but
>>>>
>>>> Yes it does - if you don't need to live in that house any more.
>>>
>>>
>>> Hence I said "unless you have to sell".
>>>
>>>>> it is the factor which forces you to sell (inc. a repro) which is the 
>>>>> cause.
>>>>>
>>>>> You may think the difference is arguing over details but, as long as 
>>>>> we mask the real problems with manufactured fears, we will continue on 
>>>>> this roller coaster.
>>>>
>>>> Once again you are applying the parameters of your life to everyone 
>>>> else in the country...
>>>
>>> Not so. However, you clearly did not read what I said before getting 
>>> into a tantrum.
>>>
>>> I suggest you try again.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> This is a simplistic, insular and selfish way to look at problems - 
>>>> almost child like.  None of these fears are manufactured - ask someone 
>>>> who's outgoings are £1500 per month but can't sell their house to 
>>>> downsize if negative equity is a manufactured fear and doesn't affect 
>>>> their disposable income.  Ask the small businessman that operates on an 
>>>> overdraft who gets a letter from the bank saying they need to pay back 
>>>> the overdraft in 30 days if its all in their head.
>>>>
>>>> Ask someone who derives their income from a simple 5% interest on their 
>>>> invested capital if inflation and interest rates are something we're 
>>>> all making a silly fuss about.
>>>>
>>>> You should stick with commenting on issues you understand and have 
>>>> experience of (rolling condoms on bananas and chalk rubber technology I 
>>>> presume) if you don't have the bredth of experience and social exposure 
>>>> to understand people's personal finances are infinitely different on 
>>>> many different levels.  You display a smugness common in those who 
>>>> belong to one of the few Govt protected, "job for life", no risk 
>>>> careers.  You'll soon change your tune when someone works out how over 
>>>> stuffed your profession is and starts cutting jobs or shipping them 
>>>> abroad.
>>>
>>> Oh dear, you seem to have thrown all your tools out of your pram.
>>>
>>> Do be a good boy and pick them up.
>>
>> Not at all, a fairly robust response I thought and perfectly balanced if 
>> I say so myself.  If ridicule is the best you can do I presume you've not 
>> got an answer to my points.
>
> Robust reponses do seem to be out of favour these days. Time was when the 
> recipient of a robust response gloried in it, it was something to get your 
> teeth into. It's hard work these days watching your words in case you 
> upset some sensitive soul. I called "creationists" and "fundamentalists" 
> crackpots the other day. Apparently that goes for name calling rather than 
> the truth! :-)

Many truths are now considered hate crimes.  Its what you get when you have 
too many idle people in Government with nothing better to do than get back 
at the "bullies" who they saw giving others a hard time at school but were 
too scaredy to do anything about.

That's why they all sit at dinner parties bleating on about how great things 
are in everyone elses neighbourhoods because of what they've done forgetting 
that they don't actually live there themselves - kind of applying that 
parameters of your life to everyone elses... hmmm, sounds familiar. 


** Posted from http://www.teranews.com **

"The Hatter"  wrote in message 
news:7eb9c$48c11dc4$24202@news.teranews.com...
>
> "Toooldtocare"  wrote in message 
> news:yc2dnRG1j9KCjFzVnZ2dnUVZ8u6dnZ2d@bt.com...
>>
>> "The Hatter"  wrote in message 
>> news:6e0c7$48c10ade$12558@news.teranews.com...
>>>
>>> "Brian Reay" <see@website.invalid> wrote in message 
>>> news:ZPSvk.268463$ah4.215176@newsfe15.ams2...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "The Hatter"  wrote in message 
>>>> news:bf83a$48bfcf06$14643@news.teranews.com...
>>>>>
>>>>> "Brian Reay" <see@website.invalid> wrote in message 
>>>>> news:xJivk.106072$6p1.19584@newsfe19.ams2...
>>>>>>
>>>>>> "Toooldtocare"  wrote in message 
>>>>>> news:wdCdnejqIfHOLCDVnZ2dnUVZ8h-dnZ2d@bt.com...
>>>>>> >
>>>>>>> A "blip"?, that's a bit more debatable. But not tonight. Time will 
>>>>>>> tell anyway.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Notice the "" around blip.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The current problem started due to a crisis of confidence and was 
>>>>>> nudged by the cost of fuel (and its knock on).
>>>>>
>>>>> No it didn't.
>>>>>
>>>>>> Next, everyone in the UK is worrying about negative equity, interest 
>>>>>> rates, and inflation. The last two aren't high by UK standards, we've 
>>>>>> seen far worse in the last 20 years. Fuel prices are high but 
>>>>>> artificially so due to taxes (petrol is around 52p / litre in the USA 
>>>>>> and they buy their oil on the
>>>>>
>>>>> No they're not!
>>>>
>>>> What aren't?
>>>>
>>>>>> same market as we do and, until the last few days, the high £ to $ 
>>>>>> should have worked in our favour).
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Negative equity is largely a manufactured fear.  You pay £200k for 
>>>>>> your
>>>>>
>>>>> wtf are you talking about?  What's a "manufactured fear"?  Did you 
>>>>> just make that up?  Are you saying that not being able to sell up and 
>>>>> downsize your house because you paid more for it than it is worth is 
>>>>> all in the mind?
>>>>>
>>>>>> house and have a 100% mortgage. Unless you have to sell (inc. a 
>>>>>> repro) the fact that the value of your house drops to £20k doesn't 
>>>>>> actually impact your day to day finances.  Now, if you are forced to 
>>>>>> sell you have a problem but
>>>>>
>>>>> Yes it does - if you don't need to live in that house any more.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Hence I said "unless you have to sell".
>>>>
>>>>>> it is the factor which forces you to sell (inc. a repro) which is the 
>>>>>> cause.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> You may think the difference is arguing over details but, as long as 
>>>>>> we mask the real problems with manufactured fears, we will continue 
>>>>>> on this roller coaster.
>>>>>
>>>>> Once again you are applying the parameters of your life to everyone 
>>>>> else in the country...
>>>>
>>>> Not so. However, you clearly did not read what I said before getting 
>>>> into a tantrum.
>>>>
>>>> I suggest you try again.
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> This is a simplistic, insular and selfish way to look at problems - 
>>>>> almost child like.  None of these fears are manufactured - ask someone 
>>>>> who's outgoings are £1500 per month but can't sell their house to 
>>>>> downsize if negative equity is a manufactured fear and doesn't affect 
>>>>> their disposable income.  Ask the small businessman that operates on 
>>>>> an overdraft who gets a letter from the bank saying they need to pay 
>>>>> back the overdraft in 30 days if its all in their head.
>>>>>
>>>>> Ask someone who derives their income from a simple 5% interest on 
>>>>> their invested capital if inflation and interest rates are something 
>>>>> we're all making a silly fuss about.
>>>>>
>>>>> You should stick with commenting on issues you understand and have 
>>>>> experience of (rolling condoms on bananas and chalk rubber technology 
>>>>> I presume) if you don't have the bredth of experience and social 
>>>>> exposure to understand people's personal finances are infinitely 
>>>>> different on many different levels.  You display a smugness common in 
>>>>> those who belong to one of the few Govt protected, "job for life", no 
>>>>> risk careers.  You'll soon change your tune when someone works out how 
>>>>> over stuffed your profession is and starts cutting jobs or shipping 
>>>>> them abroad.
>>>>
>>>> Oh dear, you seem to have thrown all your tools out of your pram.
>>>>
>>>> Do be a good boy and pick them up.
>>>
>>> Not at all, a fairly robust response I thought and perfectly balanced if 
>>> I say so myself.  If ridicule is the best you can do I presume you've 
>>> not got an answer to my points.
>>
>> Robust reponses do seem to be out of favour these days. Time was when the 
>> recipient of a robust response gloried in it, it was something to get 
>> your teeth into. It's hard work these days watching your words in case 
>> you upset some sensitive soul. I called "creationists" and 
>> "fundamentalists" crackpots the other day. Apparently that goes for name 
>> calling rather than the truth! :-)
>
> Many truths are now considered hate crimes.  Its what you get when you 
> have too many idle people in Government with nothing better to do than get 
> back at the "bullies" who they saw giving others a hard time at school but 
> were too scaredy to do anything about.
>
> That's why they all sit at dinner parties bleating on about how great 
> things are in everyone elses neighbourhoods because of what they've done 
> forgetting that they don't actually live there themselves - kind of 
> applying that parameters of your life to everyone elses... hmmm, sounds 
> familiar.


 "You will see a state of prosperity such as we have never had in my 
lifetime - nor indeed in the history of this country Indeed let us be frank 
about it - most of our people have never had it so good. "

McMillan-1957

"mike hide"  wrote in message
news:zZSdnWIQBKSKUF3VnZ2dnUVZ_oLinZ2d@comcast.com...
>
> "Not Today"  wrote in message
> news:25mcm7.l7.19.1@news.alt.net...
>> The US has bigger problems than we have in that regard, that is if you
>> consider it a problem. Personally I do not. Take a look at this:
>>
>> http://www.economyincrisis.org/
>>
>> The crisis coming up for the US is who owns its public debt. Half of it
>> is
>> owned by foreigners, mostly China and Japan. If they decide to sell those
>> dollars it is goodbye US!
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> If it's goodby US ,who will they sell their products to.

The Russians, Brazil, Europe, the rest of the Far East. And in a few years
themselves. In 20 years the Chinese will have the biggest economy in the
world. And they deserve to.

 I suppose the US
> differs from most countries in that they have all the raw materials
> including gas and oil and have plenty of agricultural capacity to feed
> them
> selves plus some.

Again, the Russians have all those advantages.

 In addition the society is pretty stable,thats why people
> invest here. Of course the other half + of the national debt is owned by
> Americans.
>
> I guess as one of the posters mentioned earlier few have the satisfaction
> of
> producing anything anymore, truth is the UK opted for what was called a
> "service Economy" many years ago. The British are in my mind a very
> inventive lot, they come up with all kinds of innovations ,problem is they
> never seem to have the money to develop them.  A prime instance is the
> mini
> they never would comply with the US crash and emissions requirements so
> they
> could not make a go of it and BMW bought them out .IN the US you have to
> go
> on awaiting list to get one,they sell like hot cakes and are pretty
> pricey.
> Everytime I see one I think why can BMW make money on them and not the
> British. This happens over and over....

Because since the First World War our governments have thought innovative
and inventive engineers and scientists some sort of oddballs. They have yet
to understand what is not happening, that we have to sell more than we buy.
Their faith in the City of London knows no bounds. They think the City will
earn enough to buy cheap goods from China and pay for inflated services to
keep us in clover for ever. The fact is that most UK banks are being kept
afloat by the Bank of England and their ability to help is limited by what
the taxpayer will put up with. It is the same in the States, our banking
systems are in crisis. The days of easy lending are over. The only way out
of this recession is the hard way. We need to rebuild our savings and pay
down our debts. That takes time. But it will take even longer if our
governments keep getting in the way by trying to spend their way out of
trouble.

If you think the US is not heading into recession as well as the UK, take a
look at your unemployment figures today. They jumped 81000 which makes your
unemployment now 6.1%. Bad news for some!
I chuckled ironically when I listened to McCain, he is going to cut taxes to
get "this great country of ours moving again". Economic ignorance! The last
thing needed in the States, and here, is tax cuts- unless interest rates are
doubled and public spending massacred. If not, we are all heading for 1970s
style inflation.

"Not Today"  wrote in message
news:25olj5.g4o.19.1@news.alt.net...
>
> "mike hide"  wrote in message
> news:zZSdnWIQBKSKUF3VnZ2dnUVZ_oLinZ2d@comcast.com...
> >
> > "Not Today"  wrote in message
> > news:25mcm7.l7.19.1@news.alt.net...
> >> The US has bigger problems than we have in that regard, that is if you
> >> consider it a problem. Personally I do not. Take a look at this:
> >>
> >> http://www.economyincrisis.org/
> >>
> >> The crisis coming up for the US is who owns its public debt. Half of it
> >> is
> >> owned by foreigners, mostly China and Japan. If they decide to sell
those
> >> dollars it is goodbye US!
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> If it's goodby US ,who will they sell their products to.
>
> The Russians, Brazil, Europe, the rest of the Far East. And in a few years
> themselves. In 20 years the Chinese will have the biggest economy in the
> world. And they deserve to.
>
>  I suppose the US
> > differs from most countries in that they have all the raw materials
> > including gas and oil and have plenty of agricultural capacity to feed
> > them
> > selves plus some.
>
> Again, the Russians have all those advantages.
>
>  In addition the society is pretty stable,thats why people
> > invest here. Of course the other half + of the national debt is owned by
> > Americans.
> >
> > I guess as one of the posters mentioned earlier few have the
satisfaction
> > of
> > producing anything anymore, truth is the UK opted for what was called a
> > "service Economy" many years ago. The British are in my mind a very
> > inventive lot, they come up with all kinds of innovations ,problem is
they
> > never seem to have the money to develop them.  A prime instance is the
> > mini
> > they never would comply with the US crash and emissions requirements so
> > they
> > could not make a go of it and BMW bought them out .IN the US you have to
> > go
> > on awaiting list to get one,they sell like hot cakes and are pretty
> > pricey.
> > Everytime I see one I think why can BMW make money on them and not the
> > British. This happens over and over....
>
> Because since the First World War our governments have thought innovative
> and inventive engineers and scientists some sort of oddballs. They have
yet
> to understand what is not happening, that we have to sell more than we
buy.
> Their faith in the City of London knows no bounds. They think the City
will
> earn enough to buy cheap goods from China and pay for inflated services to
> keep us in clover for ever. The fact is that most UK banks are being kept
> afloat by the Bank of England and their ability to help is limited by what
> the taxpayer will put up with. It is the same in the States, our banking
> systems are in crisis. The days of easy lending are over. The only way out
> of this recession is the hard way. We need to rebuild our savings and pay
> down our debts. That takes time. But it will take even longer if our
> governments keep getting in the way by trying to spend their way out of
> trouble.
>
> If you think the US is not heading into recession as well as the UK, take
a
> look at your unemployment figures today. They jumped 81000 which makes
your
> unemployment now 6.1%. Bad news for some!
> I chuckled ironically when I listened to McCain, he is going to cut taxes
to
> get "this great country of ours moving again". Economic ignorance! The
last
> thing needed in the States, and here, is tax cuts- unless interest rates
are
> doubled and public spending massacred. If not, we are all heading for
1970s
> style inflation.
>
>
>
It's a proven fact that every time the government reduces taxes ,government
revenues are increased. in the past I have had no time for Mccain, but as
the opposition is basically an empty suit his rhetoric is slowly sinking in.
we currently have two democratic idiots running congress, Pelosi and
Reed.but they are aided by numerous republicans who are democrats in all but
name. I agree with Mccain lets get rid of the liberal dems and the liberal
republicans and start afreash.

"mike hide"  wrote in message
news:8_2dnS5yo78pVFzVnZ2dnUVZ_h2dnZ2d@comcast.com...
>
> "Not Today"  wrote in message
> news:25olj5.g4o.19.1@news.alt.net...
>>
>>
>> If you think the US is not heading into recession as well as the UK, take
> a
>> look at your unemployment figures today. They jumped 81000 which makes
> your
>> unemployment now 6.1%. Bad news for some!
>> I chuckled ironically when I listened to McCain, he is going to cut taxes
> to
>> get "this great country of ours moving again". Economic ignorance! The
> last
>> thing needed in the States, and here, is tax cuts- unless interest rates
> are
>> doubled and public spending massacred. If not, we are all heading for
> 1970s
>> style inflation.
>>
>>
>>
> It's a proven fact that every time the government reduces taxes
> ,government
> revenues are increased. in the past I have had no time for Mccain, but as
> the opposition is basically an empty suit his rhetoric is slowly sinking
> in.
> we currently have two democratic idiots running congress, Pelosi and
> Reed.but they are aided by numerous republicans who are democrats in all
> but
> name. I agree with Mccain lets get rid of the liberal dems and the liberal
> republicans and start afreash.


I agree with your first sentence. The rest is partisan waffle. When Bush
arrived the budget was in balance, 8 years later it is $800 billion in
deficit, god only knows what the balance of trade deficit is, probably
trillions.It is no good cutting taxes if the extra revenue in people's
pockets gets spent on cheap consumer goods imported from China. If we want
to get out of this mess, cut taxes, cut government spending and hike up
interest rates to treble their current rate. I do not think McCain or Brown
have the stomach for it. Thatcher did it once and solved our 70s problem but
the social cost was enormous. No society can tolerate that medicine every
25 years.

"Not Today"  wrote in message
news:25q9kk.ibk.19.1@news.alt.net...
>
> "mike hide"  wrote in message
> news:8_2dnS5yo78pVFzVnZ2dnUVZ_h2dnZ2d@comcast.com...
> >
> > "Not Today"  wrote in message
> > news:25olj5.g4o.19.1@news.alt.net...
> >>
> >>
> >> If you think the US is not heading into recession as well as the UK,
take
> > a
> >> look at your unemployment figures today. They jumped 81000 which makes
> > your
> >> unemployment now 6.1%. Bad news for some!
> >> I chuckled ironically when I listened to McCain, he is going to cut
taxes
> > to
> >> get "this great country of ours moving again". Economic ignorance! The
> > last
> >> thing needed in the States, and here, is tax cuts- unless interest
rates
> > are
> >> doubled and public spending massacred. If not, we are all heading for
> > 1970s
> >> style inflation.
> >>
> >>
> >>
> > It's a proven fact that every time the government reduces taxes
> > ,government
> > revenues are increased. in the past I have had no time for Mccain, but
as
> > the opposition is basically an empty suit his rhetoric is slowly sinking
> > in.
> > we currently have two democratic idiots running congress, Pelosi and
> > Reed.but they are aided by numerous republicans who are democrats in all
> > but
> > name. I agree with Mccain lets get rid of the liberal dems and the
liberal
> > republicans and start afreash.
>
>
> I agree with your first sentence. The rest is partisan waffle. When Bush
> arrived the budget was in balance, 8 years later it is $800 billion in
> deficit, god only knows what the balance of trade deficit is, probably
> trillions.It is no good cutting taxes if the extra revenue in people's
> pockets gets spent on cheap consumer goods imported from China. If we want
> to get out of this mess, cut taxes, cut government spending and hike up
> interest rates to treble their current rate. I do not think McCain or
Brown
> have the stomach for it. Thatcher did it once and solved our 70s problem
but
> the social cost was enormous. No society can tolerate that medicine every
> 25 years

Seems to me there is a difference in the budget and the deficit, Clinton
balanced the budget ,the republicans forced him to.I can remember Clinton
say it will take ten year ,then 8,then 5 and so on in the end he was forced
to. Newt Gingridge even tried to cut all the sacred programs social security
etc and paid a heavy price for it . Clinton left Bush with a lousy economy
and soon after 9-!! happened which made everything even worse .He has had to
establish all kinds of security departments and had to deal with the Katrina
disaster [landrew is asking for another 250 billion, what a joke these
democrats are ].

If you jack up interest rates to those levels no one will be able to afford
a house, not even those wuth good credit, it will be back to the "good old
Carter days"
>

"mike hide"  wrote in message 
news:_fWdnQs47Ni6EV_VnZ2dnUVZ_rXinZ2d@comcast.com...
>
> "Not Today"  wrote in message
> news:25q9kk.ibk.19.1@news.alt.net...
>>

>>
>> I agree with your first sentence. The rest is partisan waffle. When Bush
>> arrived the budget was in balance, 8 years later it is $800 billion in
>> deficit, god only knows what the balance of trade deficit is, probably
>> trillions.It is no good cutting taxes if the extra revenue in people's
>> pockets gets spent on cheap consumer goods imported from China. If we 
>> want
>> to get out of this mess, cut taxes, cut government spending and hike up
>> interest rates to treble their current rate. I do not think McCain or
> Brown
>> have the stomach for it. Thatcher did it once and solved our 70s problem
> but
>> the social cost was enormous. No society can tolerate that medicine every
>> 25 years
>
> Seems to me there is a difference in the budget and the deficit, Clinton
> balanced the budget ,the republicans forced him to.I can remember Clinton
> say it will take ten year ,then 8,then 5 and so on in the end he was 
> forced
> to. Newt Gingridge even tried to cut all the sacred programs social 
> security
> etc and paid a heavy price for it . Clinton left Bush with a lousy economy
> and soon after 9-!! happened which made everything even worse .He has had 
> to
> establish all kinds of security departments and had to deal with the 
> Katrina
> disaster [landrew is asking for another 250 billion, what a joke these
> democrats are ].
>
> If you jack up interest rates to those levels no one will be able to 
> afford
> a house, not even those wuth good credit, it will be back to the "good old
> Carter days"

It does not matter what anyone does now. I have just looked up the US money 
supply. Believe it or not it is falling. That can only mean one thing, 
deflation is already here. The proof of that is banks are calling in loans, 
they have run out of money. It will not be back to Carter days, more like 
"bad old Hoover days".

"The Hatter"  wrote in message 
news:6e0c7$48c10ade$12558@news.teranews.com...
>
<snip>
>> Oh dear, you seem to have thrown all your tools out of your pram.
>>
>> Do be a good boy and pick them up.
>
> Not at all, a fairly robust response I thought and perfectly balanced if I 
> say so myself.  If ridicule is the best you can do I presume you've not 
> got an answer to my points.

Pot, kettle?
-- 
Harry Keane

"Not Today"  wrote in message 
news:25lvbt.f6g.19.1@news.alt.net...
>
>> "Brian Reay" <see@website.invalid> wrote in message
>> news:xJivk.106072$6p1.19584@newsfe19.ams2...
>
>
>
>>> You may think the difference is arguing over details but, as long as we
>>> mask the real problems with manufactured fears, we will continue on this
>>> roller coaster.
>
> Well, what are the "problems"? It is that the economy is totally dependent
> on rising house values. If house prices rise people feel richer, borrow
> more, spend more, and according to Brown (not now but a few years ago) 
> means
> we are in a virtuous circle of growth. The only trouble with that theory 
> was
> it was phoney. It relied on increasing levels of debt, both personal and
> national, which one day would become unsustainable. That day is now!
>
> It was not manufactured that the OECD forecasts the UK to be the only
> industrialised country heading for recession. It is not manufactured that
> the pound is sinking like a stone, unemployment rising, inflation taking
> off. It is due to the reckless spending by this government of our money
> which many borrowed. Personal debt is now greater than the UK's GDP! Now 
> the
> housing bubble has burst, the economy is going down the tubes. It is
> ridiculous and irresponsible that the government should have got us into
> this mess.

I don't think it was the government which encouraged people to borrow and 
borrow - I seem to recollect that the banks and financial institutions had a 
hand in that somewhere.  I don't think it was the government which 
encouraged banks, ex-building societies and mortgage lenders to buy up debt 
packages based on worthless US mortgages - I seem to recollect that simple 
greed and the desire to bump up "shareholder value" was a factor in that. 
You simply cannot keep on blaming everything on the government, particularly 
when you normally insist that the government interferes too much in our 
lives already.  What is it this time - interfering too much, or too little?
-- 
Harry Keane

"Harry Keane"  wrote in message 
news:rXCwk.166627$le1.139072@newsfe11.ams2...
 >> It was not manufactured that the OECD forecasts the UK to be the only
>> industrialised country heading for recession. It is not manufactured that
>> the pound is sinking like a stone, unemployment rising, inflation taking
>> off. It is due to the reckless spending by this government of our money
>> which many borrowed. Personal debt is now greater than the UK's GDP! Now 
>> the
>> housing bubble has burst, the economy is going down the tubes. It is
>> ridiculous and irresponsible that the government should have got us into
>> this mess.
>
> I don't think it was the government which encouraged people to borrow and 
> borrow - I seem to recollect that the banks and financial institutions had 
> a hand in that somewhere.

As, of course, did those who borrowed beyond their means.

Brian

"Not Today"  wrote in message
news:25qtd4.42t.17.1@news.alt.net...
>
> "mike hide"  wrote in message
> news:_fWdnQs47Ni6EV_VnZ2dnUVZ_rXinZ2d@comcast.com...
> >
> > "Not Today"  wrote in message
> > news:25q9kk.ibk.19.1@news.alt.net...
> >>
>
> >>
> >> I agree with your first sentence. The rest is partisan waffle. When
Bush
> >> arrived the budget was in balance, 8 years later it is $800 billion in
> >> deficit, god only knows what the balance of trade deficit is, probably
> >> trillions.It is no good cutting taxes if the extra revenue in people's
> >> pockets gets spent on cheap consumer goods imported from China. If we
> >> want
> >> to get out of this mess, cut taxes, cut government spending and hike up
> >> interest rates to treble their current rate. I do not think McCain or
> > Brown
> >> have the stomach for it. Thatcher did it once and solved our 70s
problem
> > but
> >> the social cost was enormous. No society can tolerate that medicine
every
> >> 25 years
> >
> > Seems to me there is a difference in the budget and the deficit, Clinton
> > balanced the budget ,the republicans forced him to.I can remember
Clinton
> > say it will take ten year ,then 8,then 5 and so on in the end he was
> > forced
> > to. Newt Gingridge even tried to cut all the sacred programs social
> > security
> > etc and paid a heavy price for it . Clinton left Bush with a lousy
economy
> > and soon after 9-!! happened which made everything even worse .He has
had
> > to
> > establish all kinds of security departments and had to deal with the
> > Katrina
> > disaster [landrew is asking for another 250 billion, what a joke these
> > democrats are ].
> >
> > If you jack up interest rates to those levels no one will be able to
> > afford
> > a house, not even those wuth good credit, it will be back to the "good
old
> > Carter days"
>
> It does not matter what anyone does now. I have just looked up the US
money
> supply. Believe it or not it is falling. That can only mean one thing,
> deflation is already here. The proof of that is banks are calling in
loans,
> they have run out of money. It will not be back to Carter days, more like
> "bad old Hoover days".
>
Easy, just print more money.

"Harry Keane"  wrote in message
news:rXCwk.166627$le1.139072@newsfe11.ams2...
> "Not Today"  wrote in message
> news:25lvbt.f6g.19.1@news.alt.net...
> >
> >> "Brian Reay" <see@website.invalid> wrote in message
> >> news:xJivk.106072$6p1.19584@newsfe19.ams2...
> >
> >
> >
> >>> You may think the difference is arguing over details but, as long as
we
> >>> mask the real problems with manufactured fears, we will continue on
this
> >>> roller coaster.
> >
> > Well, what are the "problems"? It is that the economy is totally
dependent
> > on rising house values. If house prices rise people feel richer, borrow
> > more, spend more, and according to Brown (not now but a few years ago)
> > means
> > we are in a virtuous circle of growth. The only trouble with that theory
> > was
> > it was phoney. It relied on increasing levels of debt, both personal and
> > national, which one day would become unsustainable. That day is now!
> >
> > It was not manufactured that the OECD forecasts the UK to be the only
> > industrialised country heading for recession. It is not manufactured
that
> > the pound is sinking like a stone, unemployment rising, inflation taking
> > off. It is due to the reckless spending by this government of our money
> > which many borrowed. Personal debt is now greater than the UK's GDP! Now
> > the
> > housing bubble has burst, the economy is going down the tubes. It is
> > ridiculous and irresponsible that the government should have got us into
> > this mess.
>
> I don't think it was the government which encouraged people to borrow and
> borrow - I seem to recollect that the banks and financial institutions had
a
> hand in that somewhere.  I don't think it was the government which
> encouraged banks, ex-building societies and mortgage lenders to buy up
debt
> packages based on worthless US mortgages - I seem to recollect that simple
> greed and the desire to bump up "shareholder value" was a factor in that.

> You simply cannot keep on blaming everything on the government,
particularly
> when you normally insist that the government interferes too much in our
> lives already.  What is it this time - interfering too much, or too
little?
> -- 
> Harry Keane
>

I have thought that for many years ,a lot of the problem is plain greed in
conjunction with the lies spread by those in high places. I remember years
ago I was watching the Charlie Rose program ,it was in the days when the
republicans were trying to get Clinton to balance the budget and to start
paying down the national debt. There were 4 north east economists At the
table and  man named Larry Cudlow. The 4 were bemoaning the fact that it
never could be done ,Larry piped up and said why not 85% of it is owned by
Americans .That stopped the conversation in it's tracts. That percentage is
probably higher now but it still is manageable.

I think personally the curent problems are routed in Wall street.

"mike hide"  wrote in message
news:NZ6dnW6rddu2rl7VnZ2dnUVZ_vudnZ2d@comcast.com...
>
> "Harry Keane"  wrote in message
> news:rXCwk.166627$le1.139072@newsfe11.ams2...
> > "Not Today"  wrote in message
> > news:25lvbt.f6g.19.1@news.alt.net...
> > >
> > >> "Brian Reay" <see@website.invalid> wrote in message
> > >> news:xJivk.106072$6p1.19584@newsfe19.ams2...
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > >>> You may think the difference is arguing over details but, as long as
> we
> > >>> mask the real problems with manufactured fears, we will continue on
> this
> > >>> roller coaster.
> > >
> > > Well, what are the "problems"? It is that the economy is totally
> dependent
> > > on rising house values. If house prices rise people feel richer,
borrow
> > > more, spend more, and according to Brown (not now but a few years ago)
> > > means
> > > we are in a virtuous circle of growth. The only trouble with that
theory
> > > was
> > > it was phoney. It relied on increasing levels of debt, both personal
and
> > > national, which one day would become unsustainable. That day is now!
> > >
> > > It was not manufactured that the OECD forecasts the UK to be the only
> > > industrialised country heading for recession. It is not manufactured
> that
> > > the pound is sinking like a stone, unemployment rising, inflation
taking
> > > off. It is due to the reckless spending by this government of our
money
> > > which many borrowed. Personal debt is now greater than the UK's GDP!
Now
> > > the
> > > housing bubble has burst, the economy is going down the tubes. It is
> > > ridiculous and irresponsible that the government should have got us
into
> > > this mess.
> >
> > I don't think it was the government which encouraged people to borrow
and
> > borrow - I seem to recollect that the banks and financial institutions
had
> a
> > hand in that somewhere.  I don't think it was the government which
> > encouraged banks, ex-building societies and mortgage lenders to buy up
> debt
> > packages based on worthless US mortgages - I seem to recollect