http://news.scotsman.com/latestnews/Salmond-backs-plans-for-Islamic.4095303.jp

SCOTLAND'S first state-funded Islamic school could get the go-ahead
within months after First Minister Alex Salmond declared he was
"sympathetic" towards the controversial move.

Campaigners are planning to submit a detailed proposal for the faith
school to Glasgow City Council within two months and officials last
night confirmed they would consult on the proposal.

But former Scottish education minister Sam Galbraith condemned the move
as a "retrograde step", arguing that it would be bad for the Muslim
community by hindering integration.

Scotland has around 43,000 Muslims, about 18,000 of them in Glasgow.
While there are more than 100 Islamic schools south of the border, both
private and state-supported, Scottish Muslims have so far failed to
establish a faith school and some in the community question whether it
is a good idea in an age of increased ethnic and religious tension.

Scotland has more than 400 publicly funded Roman Catholic schools as
well as three state-supported Scottish Episcopalian schools and a
publicly funded Jewish school.

A spokesman for Salmond said: "We are very much sympathetic to the idea.
The First Minister is supportive. He thinks that faith schools are a
good thing and they make a great contribution to Scotland. The issue is
whether there is a sustainable demand for them.

"We would expect a local authority to react positively where there is a
sustainable case."

After failing in a previous campaign, a group of Muslim community
leaders in Glasgow is preparing a case for at least one school, which
they will present in about two months' time. They are gathering names of
families who they think will want to send their children to an Islamic
school.

A spokesman for the campaign said: "We're working on things right now so
that we can present a strong case to the authority – to show that we are
united behind this and that there are enough of us so that the case is
obviously sustainable."

Glasgow City Council said it would consider any reasonable plan that
parents could come up with. A spokeswoman for council leader Stephen
Purcell said: "Basically, if the parents come forward with a sustainable
plan, both financially and educationally, we will consult on that plan."

On Mon, 19 May 2008 02:47:55 +0100, Steve Greene
<stephen_greene.@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote:

>http://news.scotsman.com/latestnews/Salmond-backs-plans-for-Islamic.4095303.jp
>
>SCOTLAND'S first state-funded Islamic school could get the go-ahead
>within months after First Minister Alex Salmond declared he was
>"sympathetic" towards the controversial move.
>
>Campaigners are planning to submit a detailed proposal for the faith
>school to Glasgow City Council within two months and officials last
>night confirmed they would consult on the proposal.
>
>But former Scottish education minister Sam Galbraith condemned the move
>as a "retrograde step", arguing that it would be bad for the Muslim
>community by hindering integration.

Instead of this he should be getting rid of Kafflik Skools and make
all schools non -denom.

stillnobodyhome@gmail.com wrote:
> On Mon, 19 May 2008 02:47:55 +0100, Steve Greene
> <stephen_greene.@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote:
> 
>> http://news.scotsman.com/latestnews/Salmond-backs-plans-for-Islamic.4095303.jp
>>
>> SCOTLAND'S first state-funded Islamic school could get the go-ahead
>> within months after First Minister Alex Salmond declared he was
>> "sympathetic" towards the controversial move.
>>
>> Campaigners are planning to submit a detailed proposal for the faith
>> school to Glasgow City Council within two months and officials last
>> night confirmed they would consult on the proposal.
>>
>> But former Scottish education minister Sam Galbraith condemned the move
>> as a "retrograde step", arguing that it would be bad for the Muslim
>> community by hindering integration.
> 
> Instead of this he should be getting rid of Kafflik Skools and make
> all schools non -denom. 

agreed...there should be no schools organised an run by any denomination 
of fantasists whether they by Cof E, Jewish, Catholic, Hindu or Muslim

On Mon, 19 May 2008 02:47:55 +0100, Steve Greene
<stephen_greene.@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote:

>http://news.scotsman.com/latestnews/Salmond-backs-plans-for-Islamic.4095303.jp
>
>SCOTLAND'S first state-funded Islamic school could get the go-ahead
>within months after First Minister Alex Salmond declared he was
>"sympathetic" towards the controversial move.
>

School for terrorists gets go-ahead? :)

(tosspost removed)

"KJ"  wrote in message 
news:pr-dnYC05a28wqzVnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@bt.com...
> stillnobodyhome@gmail.com wrote:
>> On Mon, 19 May 2008 02:47:55 +0100, Steve Greene
>> <stephen_greene.@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>> http://news.scotsman.com/latestnews/Salmond-backs-plans-for-Islamic.4095303.jp
>>>
>>> SCOTLAND'S first state-funded Islamic school could get the go-ahead
>>> within months after First Minister Alex Salmond declared he was
>>> "sympathetic" towards the controversial move.
>>>
>>> Campaigners are planning to submit a detailed proposal for the faith
>>> school to Glasgow City Council within two months and officials last
>>> night confirmed they would consult on the proposal.
>>>
>>> But former Scottish education minister Sam Galbraith condemned the move
>>> as a "retrograde step", arguing that it would be bad for the Muslim
>>> community by hindering integration.
>>
>> Instead of this he should be getting rid of Kafflik Skools and make
>> all schools non -denom.
>
> agreed...there should be no schools organised an run by any denomination 
> of fantasists whether they by Cof E, Jewish, Catholic, Hindu or Muslim

Agreed.
I am old enough to remember the bad old days when even junior schools had 
compulsory dogma-instilling sessions every morning.
I instinctively knew the practice was wrong even at that age.
We've come along way since then of course, but an enlightened democracy 
should not be instilling religious dogma in schools at all. If parents wish 
to brainwash their kids with these absurd fantasies (it is still legal for 
them to do it after all) they should do it on their own time and with their 
own money and outside school hours.

"KJ"  wrote

> agreed...there should be no schools organised an run by any denomination 
> of fantasists whether they by Cof E, Jewish, Catholic, Hindu or Muslim

You are, as usual, completely incorrect.

There should be schools of all faiths as well as non-denomination schools.

It's about freedom of choice, not restricting it, you moron.

"Number Two"  wrote in message 
news:48317364$0$26093$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk...
>
> "KJ"  wrote
>
>> agreed...there should be no schools organised an run by any denomination 
>> of fantasists whether they by Cof E, Jewish, Catholic, Hindu or Muslim
>
> You are, as usual, completely incorrect.
>
> There should be schools of all faiths as well as non-denomination schools.
>
> It's about freedom of choice, not restricting it, you moron.

What about 'freedom of choice' for the victims?

"Adam Whyte-Settlar" <none@none> wrote

>>> agreed...there should be no schools organised an run by any denomination 
>>> of fantasists whether they by Cof E, Jewish, Catholic, Hindu or Muslim
>>
>> You are, as usual, completely incorrect.
>>
>> There should be schools of all faiths as well as non-denomination 
>> schools.
>>
>> It's about freedom of choice, not restricting it, you moron.
>
> What about 'freedom of choice' for the victims?

'Victims' of education? Who are they?

On Mon, 19 May 2008 13:32:29 +0100, "Number Two"
 wrote:

>
>"KJ"  wrote
>
>> agreed...there should be no schools organised an run by any denomination 
>> of fantasists whether they by Cof E, Jewish, Catholic, Hindu or Muslim
>
>You are, as usual, completely incorrect.
>
>There should be schools of all faiths as well as non-denomination schools.

>It's about freedom of choice, not restricting it, you moron.

When I was a kid I was forced to go to a school run by the Virgin
worshippers. We were taught to pray to statues and kiss their feet and
hate ourselves and our bodies.

Every Ash Wednesday we had to go to their church in the morning before
school where a priest daubed a magical symbol with a bit of charcoal
on every kids forehead. Once on a snowy Ash Wednesday I got hit on the
forehead with a snowball on the way to school which washed the magical
symbol off. The teacher had morning symbol inspection and when mine
wasn't there I was pulled out to the front of the class for
humiliation and a severe thrashing for telling lies when I told the
Jesuit Sturmbahnfuerer what had happened.

The straw that broke the camels back for me was on a school trip to
Dublin where we were taken into a church that had the fossilised foot
of some religious nutter from long ago on display, he was some sort of
holy twat amongst the Virgin worshippers. The Jesuits had the kids
praying to a fucking fossilised foot in a glass case. That was it for
me. Even though I was only twelve it was clear that they were fucking
insane. 

All the superstition and guilt ridden crap they hammered into the kids
heads, sometimes with the help of bamboo canes, was a violation. It
was child abuse.

So don't go talking about "freedom of choice." 

Schools should be free from religious indoctrination.

Svenne

On 19 May, 17:49, Svenne  wrote:
> On Mon, 19 May 2008 13:32:29 +0100, "Number Two"
>
>  wrote:
>
> >"KJ"  wrote
>
> >> agreed...there should be no schools organised an run by any denomination
> >> of fantasists whether they by Cof E, Jewish, Catholic, Hindu or Muslim
>
> >You are, as usual, completely incorrect.
>
> >There should be schools of all faiths as well as non-denomination schools.
> >It's about freedom of choice, not restricting it, you moron.
>
> When I was a kid I was forced to go to a school run by the Virgin
> worshippers. We were taught to pray to statues and kiss their feet and
> hate ourselves and our bodies.
>
> Every Ash Wednesday we had to go to their church in the morning before
> school where a priest daubed a magical symbol with a bit of charcoal
> on every kids forehead. Once on a snowy Ash Wednesday I got hit on the
> forehead with a snowball on the way to school which washed the magical
> symbol off. The teacher had morning symbol inspection and when mine
> wasn't there I was pulled out to the front of the class for
> humiliation and a severe thrashing for telling lies when I told the
> Jesuit Sturmbahnfuerer what had happened.
>
> The straw that broke the camels back for me was on a school trip to
> Dublin where we were taken into a church that had the fossilised foot
> of some religious nutter from long ago on display, he was some sort of
> holy twat amongst the Virgin worshippers. The Jesuits had the kids
> praying to a fucking fossilised foot in a glass case. That was it for
> me. Even though I was only twelve it was clear that they were fucking
> insane.
>
> All the superstition and guilt ridden crap they hammered into the kids
> heads, sometimes with the help of bamboo canes, was a violation. It
> was child abuse.
>
> So don't go talking about "freedom of choice."
>
> Schools should be free from religious indoctrination.
>
> Svenne

Reminds me of a friend who escaped from a seminary and
poked fun at religion forever after.  He gave me a book to
read which described a relic I can still laugh at: "a sneeze of
the Holy Ghost".

"Svenne"  wrote

>>There should be schools of all faiths as well as non-denomination schools.
>
>>It's about freedom of choice, not restricting it, you moron.
>
> When I was a kid I was forced to go to a school run by the Virgin
> worshippers. We were taught to pray to statues and kiss their feet and
> hate ourselves and our bodies.

[snip draconian education]

> So don't go talking about "freedom of choice."
>
> Schools should be free from religious indoctrination.

I completely agree with your statement.

Perhaps I should rephrase: education should include all faiths.

IMO, 'banning' religion from schools is equally damaging as religious 
indoctrination.

All the religions have a rich history and it is surprising how many of them 
date back to common origins.

Personally, I would like to see young people educated in *all* religions as 
well as atheist ideals. That is what I mean by 'freedom of choice'.

On Mon, 19 May 2008 09:54:08 -0700 (PDT), Ariadne
 wrote:

>> The straw that broke the camels back for me was on a school trip to
>> Dublin where we were taken into a church that had the fossilised foot
>> of some religious nutter from long ago on display, he was some sort of
>> holy twat amongst the Virgin worshippers. The Jesuits had the kids
>> praying to a fucking fossilised foot in a glass case. That was it for
>> me. Even though I was only twelve it was clear that they were fucking
>> insane.
>>
>> All the superstition and guilt ridden crap they hammered into the kids
>> heads, sometimes with the help of bamboo canes, was a violation. It
>> was child abuse.
>>
>> So don't go talking about "freedom of choice."
>>
>> Schools should be free from religious indoctrination.

>Reminds me of a friend who escaped from a seminary and
>poked fun at religion forever after.  He gave me a book to
>read which described a relic I can still laugh at: "a sneeze of
>the Holy Ghost".

That's a good one.

At one time there were dozens of Jesus's foreskins in churches across
Europe. He must have had a big dick.

Svenne

On Mon, 19 May 2008 18:05:33 +0100, "Number Two"
 wrote:

>
>"Svenne"  wrote
>
>>>There should be schools of all faiths as well as non-denomination schools.
>>
>>>It's about freedom of choice, not restricting it, you moron.
>>
>> When I was a kid I was forced to go to a school run by the Virgin
>> worshippers. We were taught to pray to statues and kiss their feet and
>> hate ourselves and our bodies.
>
>[snip draconian education]
>
>> So don't go talking about "freedom of choice."
>>
>> Schools should be free from religious indoctrination.
>
>I completely agree with your statement.
>
>Perhaps I should rephrase: education should include all faiths.
>
>IMO, 'banning' religion from schools is equally damaging as religious 
>indoctrination.
>
>All the religions have a rich history and it is surprising how many of them 
>date back to common origins.
>
>Personally, I would like to see young people educated in *all* religions as 
>well as atheist ideals. That is what I mean by 'freedom of choice'.

OK, we're on the same side then. Impartial knowledge of all religions
is an essential part of any all round education.

Svenne

On Mon, 19 May 2008 22:27:20 +1000
"Adam Whyte-Settlar" <none@none> wrote:

> 
> "KJ"  wrote in message 
> news:pr-dnYC05a28wqzVnZ2dneKdnZydnZ2d@bt.com...
> > stillnobodyhome@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Mon, 19 May 2008 02:47:55 +0100, Steve Greene
> >> <stephen_greene.@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote:
> >>
> >>> http://news.scotsman.com/latestnews/Salmond-backs-plans-for-Islamic.4095303.jp
> >>>
> >>> SCOTLAND'S first state-funded Islamic school could get the
> >>> go-ahead within months after First Minister Alex Salmond declared
> >>> he was "sympathetic" towards the controversial move.
> >>>
> >>> Campaigners are planning to submit a detailed proposal for the
> >>> faith school to Glasgow City Council within two months and
> >>> officials last night confirmed they would consult on the proposal.
> >>>
> >>> But former Scottish education minister Sam Galbraith condemned
> >>> the move as a "retrograde step", arguing that it would be bad for
> >>> the Muslim community by hindering integration.
> >>
> >> Instead of this he should be getting rid of Kafflik Skools and make
> >> all schools non -denom.
> >
> > agreed...there should be no schools organised an run by any
> > denomination of fantasists whether they by Cof E, Jewish, Catholic,
> > Hindu or Muslim
> 
> Agreed.
> I am old enough to remember the bad old days when even junior schools
> had compulsory dogma-instilling sessions every morning.
> I instinctively knew the practice was wrong even at that age.
> We've come along way since then of course, but an enlightened
> democracy should not be instilling religious dogma in schools at all.
> If parents wish to brainwash their kids with these absurd fantasies
> (it is still legal for them to do it after all) they should do it on
> their own time and with their own money and outside school hours.

You hit the nail right on the head there.

On Mon, 19 May 2008 02:47:55 퍝
Steve Greene <stephen_greene.@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote:

> http://news.scotsman.com/latestnews/Salmond-backs-plans-for-Islamic.4095303.jp
> 
> SCOTLAND'S first state-funded Islamic school could get the go-ahead
> within months after First Minister Alex Salmond declared he was
> "sympathetic" towards the controversial move.
> 
> Campaigners are planning to submit a detailed proposal for the faith
> school to Glasgow City Council within two months and officials last
> night confirmed they would consult on the proposal.
> 
> But former Scottish education minister Sam Galbraith condemned the
> move as a "retrograde step", arguing that it would be bad for the
> Muslim community by hindering integration.
> 
> Scotland has around 43,000 Muslims, about 18,000 of them in Glasgow.
> While there are more than 100 Islamic schools south of the border,
> both private and state-supported, Scottish Muslims have so far failed
> to establish a faith school and some in the community question
> whether it is a good idea in an age of increased ethnic and religious
> tension.
> 
> Scotland has more than 400 publicly funded Roman Catholic schools as
> well as three state-supported Scottish Episcopalian schools and a
> publicly funded Jewish school.
> 
> A spokesman for Salmond said: "We are very much sympathetic to the
> idea. The First Minister is supportive. He thinks that faith schools
> are a good thing and they make a great contribution to Scotland. The
> issue is whether there is a sustainable demand for them.
> 
> "We would expect a local authority to react positively where there is
> a sustainable case."
> 
> After failing in a previous campaign, a group of Muslim community
> leaders in Glasgow is preparing a case for at least one school, which
> they will present in about two months' time. They are gathering names
> of families who they think will want to send their children to an
> Islamic school.
> 
> A spokesman for the campaign said: "We're working on things right now
> so that we can present a strong case to the authority – to show that
> we are united behind this and that there are enough of us so that the
> case is obviously sustainable."
> 
> Glasgow City Council said it would consider any reasonable plan that
> parents could come up with. A spokeswoman for council leader Stephen
> Purcell said: "Basically, if the parents come forward with a
> sustainable plan, both financially and educationally, we will consult
> on that plan."

Salmond just lost a few points in my estimation. This nonsense of
mixing church and state has got to be stopped, including the Catholics
and others. I'd like to know what "contribution to Scotland" can be
made by the medieval-regressionist indoctrination of children,
especially when done with taxpayers' (i.e. my) money.

On Mon, 19 May 2008 17:15:42 +0000, Svenne wrote:

> At one time there were dozens of Jesus's foreskins in churches across
> Europe. He must have had a big dick.

Jesus was a Red Sea pedestrian?

Surely it refers to any manufacturers of dairy products?

-- 
Phil Stovell, Hampshire, UK

Svenne wrote:
> On Mon, 19 May 2008 09:54:08 -0700 (PDT), Ariadne
>  wrote:
> 
>>> The straw that broke the camels back for me was on a school trip to
>>> Dublin where we were taken into a church that had the fossilised foot
>>> of some religious nutter from long ago on display, he was some sort of
>>> holy twat amongst the Virgin worshippers. The Jesuits had the kids
>>> praying to a fucking fossilised foot in a glass case. That was it for
>>> me. Even though I was only twelve it was clear that they were fucking
>>> insane.
>>>
>>> All the superstition and guilt ridden crap they hammered into the kids
>>> heads, sometimes with the help of bamboo canes, was a violation. It
>>> was child abuse.
>>>
>>> So don't go talking about "freedom of choice."
>>>
>>> Schools should be free from religious indoctrination.
> 
>> Reminds me of a friend who escaped from a seminary and
>> poked fun at religion forever after.  He gave me a book to
>> read which described a relic I can still laugh at: "a sneeze of
>> the Holy Ghost".
> 
> That's a good one.
> 
> At one time there were dozens of Jesus's foreskins in churches across
> Europe. He must have had a big dick.
> 
> Svenne
> 

...especially as, being Jewish, the original would have been removed at 
an early age.

-- 
Moving things in still pictures!

Number Two wrote:
> "KJ"  wrote
>
>> agreed...there should be no schools organised an run by any
>> denomination of fantasists whether they by Cof E, Jewish, Catholic,
>> Hindu or Muslim
>
> You are, as usual, completely incorrect.
>
> There should be schools of all faiths as well as non-denomination
> schools.
> It's about freedom of choice, not restricting it, you moron.

Freedom of choice? Why not Scientolgy schools, Flat Earth schools, 
Creationist schools, Flying Spaghetti Monster schools? No, schools are 
there to teach facts not pie in the sky.

Number Two wrote:
> "Svenne"  wrote
>
>>> There should be schools of all faiths as well as non-denomination
>>> schools.
>>
>>> It's about freedom of choice, not restricting it, you moron.
>>
>> When I was a kid I was forced to go to a school run by the Virgin
>> worshippers. We were taught to pray to statues and kiss their feet
>> and hate ourselves and our bodies.
>
> [snip draconian education]
>
>> So don't go talking about "freedom of choice."
>>
>> Schools should be free from religious indoctrination.
>
> I completely agree with your statement.
>
> Perhaps I should rephrase: education should include all faiths.

Quite. As others and you have said, they are part of general culture but 
to educate people on (not in) all faiths means that the schools have to 
be non-denominational otherwise they are inevitably biased..

"John of Aix"  wrote in news:4831e6ff$1$847
$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr:

> 
> Freedom of choice? Why not Scientolgy schools, Flat Earth schools, 
> Creationist schools, Flying Spaghetti Monster schools? No, schools are 
> there to teach facts not pie in the sky. 

Who's facts?

-- 

Regards or otherwise,

Periander

®i©ardo  wrote:

>Svenne wrote:

>> At one time there were dozens of Jesus's foreskins in churches across
>> Europe. He must have had a big dick.
>> 
>...especially as, being Jewish, the original would have been removed at 
>an early age.

These foreskins were displayed in _churches_? How was that sold?
"Jesus gave up his foreskin that we might keep ours"?

[fu - uk.legal]



-- 
Sleepalot   aa #1385

Sleepalot wrote:
> ®i©ardo  wrote:
> 
>> Svenne wrote:
> 
>>> At one time there were dozens of Jesus's foreskins in churches across
>>> Europe. He must have had a big dick.
>>>
>> ...especially as, being Jewish, the original would have been removed at 
>> an early age.
> 
> These foreskins were displayed in _churches_? How was that sold?
> "Jesus gave up his foreskin that we might keep ours"?
> 
> [fu - uk.legal]
> 
> 
> 
LOL!

-- 
Moving things in still pictures!

On 19 May, 18:15, Svenne  wrote:
> On Mon, 19 May 2008 09:54:08 -0700 (PDT), Ariadne
>
>
>
>
>
>  wrote:
> >> The straw that broke the camels back for me was on a school trip to
> >> Dublin where we were taken into a church that had the fossilised foot
> >> of some religious nutter from long ago on display, he was some sort of
> >> holy twat amongst the Virgin worshippers. The Jesuits had the kids
> >> praying to a fucking fossilised foot in a glass case. That was it for
> >> me. Even though I was only twelve it was clear that they were fucking
> >> insane.
>
> >> All the superstition and guilt ridden crap they hammered into the kids
> >> heads, sometimes with the help of bamboo canes, was a violation. It
> >> was child abuse.
>
> >> So don't go talking about "freedom of choice."
>
> >> Schools should be free from religious indoctrination.
> >Reminds me of a friend who escaped from a seminary and
> >poked fun at religion forever after.  He gave me a book to
> >read which described a relic I can still laugh at: "a sneeze of
> >the Holy Ghost".
>
> That's a good one.
>
> At one time there were dozens of Jesus's foreskins in churches across
> Europe. He must have had a big dick.
>
> Svenne- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

Weren't there lots of him in "A Clockwork Orange"?

"John of Aix"  wrote:

:Number Two wrote:
:> "KJ"  wrote
:>
:>> agreed...there should be no schools organised an run by any
:>> denomination of fantasists whether they by Cof E, Jewish, Catholic,
:>> Hindu or Muslim
:>
:> You are, as usual, completely incorrect.
:>
:> There should be schools of all faiths as well as non-denomination
:> schools.
:> It's about freedom of choice, not restricting it, you moron.
:
:Freedom of choice? Why not Scientolgy schools, Flat Earth schools, 
:Creationist schools, Flying Spaghetti Monster schools? No, schools are 
:there to teach facts not pie in the sky. 
:

The only difference between you and the folks running the madrasas is
just what 'facts' you want to force down peoples' throats and which
you want to forbid.

So, just which 'facts' would you have them teach?

-- 
"The supreme satisfaction is to be able to despise one’s 
 neighbour and this fact goes far to account for religious 
 intolerance. It is evidently consoling to reflect that the 
 people next door are headed for hell." 
                                   -- Aleister Crowley

On 19 May, 13:32, "Number Two"  wrote:
> "KJ"  wrote
>
> > agreed...there should be no schools organised an run by any denomination
> > of fantasists whether they by Cof E, Jewish, Catholic, Hindu or Muslim
>
> You are, as usual, completely incorrect.
>
> There should be schools of all faiths as well as non-denomination schools.
>
> It's about freedom of choice, not restricting it, you moron.

If people believe in a deity, why do they need a publicly-funded
institution to facilitate their belief?

--
Halmyre

"Number Two"  wrote in message 
news:4831af1d$0$2479$da0feed9@news.zen.co.uk...
>
> "Adam Whyte-Settlar" <none@none> wrote
>
>>>> agreed...there should be no schools organised an run by any 
>>>> denomination of fantasists whether they by Cof E, Jewish, Catholic, 
>>>> Hindu or Muslim
>>>
>>> You are, as usual, completely incorrect.
>>>
>>> There should be schools of all faiths as well as non-denomination 
>>> schools.
>>>
>>> It's about freedom of choice, not restricting it, you moron.
>>
>> What about 'freedom of choice' for the victims?
>
> 'Victims' of education? Who are they?

I'll be generous and just presume you are being deliberately obtuse.

"Svenne"  wrote in message 
news:raa3341oq30t18ld5ngu6eafcfl9vvslke@4ax.com...

> .........The Jesuits had the kids
> praying to a fucking fossilised foot in a glass case. That was it for
> me. Even though I was only twelve it was clear that they were fucking
> insane.
>
> All the superstition and guilt ridden crap they hammered into the kids
> heads, sometimes with the help of bamboo canes, was a violation. It
> was child abuse.
>
> So don't go talking about "freedom of choice."
>
> Schools should be free from religious indoctrination.

Hear hear.
As you rightly point out, the sadistic beatings with canes, the guilt trips 
and the fear of being burned to death being instilled into victims as young 
as five years old is nothing less than child abuse. It's time these evil 
lunatics were locked up alongside the pedophiles.

"John of Aix"  wrote in message 
news:4831e700$0$847$ba4acef3@news.orange.fr...
> Number Two wrote:
>> "Svenne"  wrote
>>
>>>> There should be schools of all faiths as well as non-denomination
>>>> schools.
>>>
>>>> It's about freedom of choice, not restricting it, you moron.
>>>
>>> When I was a kid I was forced to go to a school run by the Virgin
>>> worshippers. We were taught to pray to statues and kiss their feet
>>> and hate ourselves and our bodies.
>>
>> [snip draconian education]
>>
>>> So don't go talking about "freedom of choice."
>>>
>>> Schools should be free from religious indoctrination.
>>
>> I completely agree with your statement.
>>
>> Perhaps I should rephrase: education should include all faiths.
>
> Quite. As others and you have said, they are part of general culture but 
> to educate people on (not in) all faiths means that the schools have to be 
> non-denominational otherwise they are inevitably biased..

It's totally impractical. There are at least 4,200 religions in the world.
To learn even the basics about them would take up the entire school 
curriculum for years.

And to select only a few hundred would,  by definition, still be exhibiting 
bias.
It should be up to the individual to decide once he/she has reached the age 
of reason - probably around 18 years old - if he/she wishes to join one.
Then perhaps he would volunteer to (for example) have his gentials mutilated 
by his own choice and not someone else's when he is too young to fight back, 
or (for another example) agree to be thrashed with a cane for thinking about 
sex.
Jeez. Are *all* religions that insane?

Halmyre  wrote:

:On 19 May, 13:32, "Number Two"  wrote:
:> "KJ"  wrote
:>
:> > agreed...there should be no schools organised an run by any denomination
:> > of fantasists whether they by Cof E, Jewish, Catholic, Hindu or Muslim
:>
:> You are, as usual, completely incorrect.
:>
:> There should be schools of all faiths as well as non-denomination schools.
:>
:> It's about freedom of choice, not restricting it, you moron.
:
:If people believe in a deity, why do they need a publicly-funded
:institution to facilitate their belief?
:

A very good question.  So why do you?

-- 
"The supreme satisfaction is to be able to despise one’s 
 neighbour and this fact goes far to account for religious 
 intolerance. It is evidently consoling to reflect that the 
 people next door are headed for hell." 
                                   -- Aleister Crowley

"John of Aix"  wrote

> Freedom of choice? Why not Scientolgy schools, Flat Earth schools, 
> Creationist schools, Flying Spaghetti Monster schools?

Yes, absolutely.

The curriculum should include all of the above, even if it is only one 
lesson each.

Why are the beliefs of Scientology always mocked? Is it a sign of mental 
illness to believe in 'Thetans' rather than believe in a guy who was killed 
on a cross and then came back to life?

"Adam Whyte-Settlar" <none@none> wrote

>>> Perhaps I should rephrase: education should include all faiths.
>>
>> Quite. As others and you have said, they are part of general culture but 
>> to educate people on (not in) all faiths means that the schools have to 
>> be non-denominational otherwise they are inevitably biased..
>
> It's totally impractical. There are at least 4,200 religions in the world.
> To learn even the basics about them would take up the entire school 
> curriculum for years.

Possibly, but if my kids can spend an entire two hour history lesson just 
listening to The Beatles and The Rolling Stones then surely there is 
sufficient time to discuss the origins and principles of some of them?

> Jeez. Are *all* religions that insane?

IME, yes. However, not all followers of religions are fruitcakes.

On Tue, 20 May 2008 18:13:06 +1000, "Adam Whyte-Settlar" <none@none>
wrote:

>It's totally impractical. There are at least 4,200 religions in the world.
>To learn even the basics about them would take up the entire school 
>curriculum for years.

Most religions can be sorted into three groups; Monotheism, Polytheism
and Pantheism. There's no need to go into every single sect and cult
since if you understand the basic theological premises of those three
groupings you have pretty much a good idea of what any religion is
about.

Svenne

"Fred J. McCall"  wrote in message 
news:tfd4349jlvt3mqbspatnf5dva1s8r5dsu9@4ax.com...
> "John of Aix"  wrote:
>
> :Number Two wrote:
> :> "KJ"  wrote
> :>
> :>> agreed...there should be no schools organised an run by any
> :>> denomination of fantasists whether they by Cof E, Jewish, Catholic,
> :>> Hindu or Muslim
> :>
> :> You are, as usual, completely incorrect.
> :>
> :> There should be schools of all faiths as well as non-denomination
> :> schools.
> :> It's about freedom of choice, not restricting it, you moron.
> :
> :Freedom of choice? Why not Scientolgy schools, Flat Earth schools,
> :Creationist schools, Flying Spaghetti Monster schools? No, schools are
> :there to teach facts not pie in the sky.
> :
>
> The only difference between you and the folks running the madrasas is
> just what 'facts' you want to force down peoples' throats and which
> you want to forbid.
>
> So, just which 'facts' would you have them teach?
>

Physics, Maths, Chemistry, Geography, English, MFL, Biology etc.  All of 
these have plenty of facts, for a given value of truth.

On May 20, 6:27 am, Fred J. McCall  wrote:
> Halmyre  wrote:
>
> :On 19 May, 13:32, "Number Two"  wrote:
> :> "KJ"  wrote
> :>
> :> > agreed...there should be no schools organised an run by any denomination
> :> > of fantasists whether they by Cof E, Jewish, Catholic, Hindu or Muslim
> :>
> :> You are, as usual, completely incorrect.
> :>
> :> There should be schools of all faiths as well as non-denomination schools.
> :>
> :> It's about freedom of choice, not restricting it, you moron.
> :
> :If people believe in a deity, why do they need a publicly-funded
> :institution to facilitate their belief?
> :
>
> A very good question.  So why do you?
>
>

   Do you think that religious schools should be publically funded?

wrote in message 
news:dc89713d-1ad5-4cba-9bcc-c585f23b3afe@m36g2000hse.googlegroups.com...

   Do you think that religious schools should be publically funded?

-------------------

That's not even an issue in the UK.

The fact is that they are,  and on a huge scale.

The problem the Muslim authorities have that doesn't seem to bother the 
Jewish,  Protestant and Catholic schools is that the government insists that 
if they get the big subsidy then the children must be taught what is known 
as 'the national syllabus' in a reasonable manner.

In real terms all the religious schools get is the power to decide on the 
faith used for the form of prayer within the school and a couple of seats on 
the board of governor,s which means that they get a say in the appointment 
of the head teacher and some of the other teaching staff,  within some very 
strict limits.

But,  if you start pushing the envelope,  such as insisting on a single sex 
school when there isn't a need for one,  or insisting on more religious 
instruction/knowledge classes than are called for,  or teaching stuff that 
is dogma rather than,  for example,  history,  you hit problems with the 
statutory authorities,  and so far the Muslims haven't even got that far.

-- 
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time,  like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.




-- 
William Black


I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time,  like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.

"Number Two"  wrote in message 
news:4832adaa$0$26093$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk...
>
> "Adam Whyte-Settlar" <none@none> wrote
>
>>>> Perhaps I should rephrase: education should include all faiths.
>>>
>>> Quite. As others and you have said, they are part of general culture but 
>>> to educate people on (not in) all faiths means that the schools have to 
>>> be non-denominational otherwise they are inevitably biased..
>>
>> It's totally impractical. There are at least 4,200 religions in the 
>> world.
>> To learn even the basics about them would take up the entire school 
>> curriculum for years.
>
> Possibly, but if my kids can spend an entire two hour history lesson just 
> listening to The Beatles and The Rolling Stones then surely there is 
> sufficient time to discuss the origins and principles of some of them?

Mick Jagger has principles!?
Jeez! Whatever became of the counter-culture?

>> Jeez. Are *all* religions that insane?
>
> IME, yes. However, not all followers of religions are fruitcakes.

I agree - a significant minority are merely harmless crackpots.
They all have one thing in common however - their bloated egos simply can't 
accept that their life is as ultimately as pointless, brutal and short as 
everyone elses.
I would concede that the evolution of mass delusion makes for fascinating 
study - I just feel that the era of bronze-age mythology and it's 4,200 
branches is over and the time could be better spent studying something more 
practical and relevant to life in the 21st century.
Like how to avoid repeating the last 3 millenia or so of genocidal religious 
wars for example.

"Svenne"  wrote in message 
news:deb5345nlqeu2hjhtgbtu6kpj2jtq0l69v@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 20 May 2008 18:13:06 +1000, "Adam Whyte-Settlar" <none@none>
> wrote:
>
>>It's totally impractical. There are at least 4,200 religions in the world.
>>To learn even the basics about them would take up the entire school
>>curriculum for years.
>
> Most religions can be sorted into three groups; Monotheism, Polytheism
> and Pantheism. There's no need to go into every single sect and cult
> since if you understand the basic theological premises of those three
> groupings you have pretty much a good idea of what any religion is
> about.

Fair enough - but you are talking about the intriguing subject of theology 
and not the evil of religious indoctrination of innocents in schools.
Big difference.

"Svenne"  wrote in message 
news:q6d334ldopam606811k244v9f6oq4hvbs5@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 19 May 2008 09:54:08 -0700 (PDT), Ariadne
>  wrote:

>>>.......The Jesuits had the kids
>>> praying to a fucking fossilised foot in a glass case.
>>> So don't go talking about "freedom of choice."
>>>
>>> Schools should be free from religious indoctrination.
>
>>Reminds me of a friend who escaped from a seminary and
>>poked fun at religion forever after.  He gave me a book to
>>read which described a relic I can still laugh at: "a sneeze of
>>the Holy Ghost".
>
> That's a good one.
>
> At one time there were dozens of Jesus's foreskins in churches across
> Europe. He must have had a big dick.

Holy prepuce!
But not necessarily so - it could be just an interesting variation of the 
'loaves and fishes' myth.

As (IMO) an interesting aside I once saw (in a church somewhere in 
central-west Spain) a *black* 'Madonna and Child'!
Utterly blasphemous of course as we now know that, around about the 13th 
century, it was discovered that Jesus (almost unique among men of probable 
NE African ancestry) was a blond-haired, blue-eyed Scandanavian type. 
Indeed, when an innovative American film producer cast 'God' and Moses as 
black men he was charged under US blasphemy laws.
Quite right too. A few centuries past and he would have been burnt at the 
stake. For his own good no doubt.

God preserve us all from religion.

"Oso" <osobear(beard)@ntlworld.com> wrote:
:
:"Fred J. McCall"  wrote in message 
:news:tfd4349jlvt3mqbspatnf5dva1s8r5dsu9@4ax.com...
:> "John of Aix"  wrote:
:>
:> :Number Two wrote:
:> :> "KJ"  wrote
:> :>
:> :>> agreed...there should be no schools organised an run by any
:> :>> denomination of fantasists whether they by Cof E, Jewish, Catholic,
:> :>> Hindu or Muslim
:> :>
:> :> You are, as usual, completely incorrect.
:> :>
:> :> There should be schools of all faiths as well as non-denomination
:> :> schools.
:> :> It's about freedom of choice, not restricting it, you moron.
:> :
:> :Freedom of choice? Why not Scientolgy schools, Flat Earth schools,
:> :Creationist schools, Flying Spaghetti Monster schools? No, schools are
:> :there to teach facts not pie in the sky.
:> :
:>
:> The only difference between you and the folks running the madrasas is
:> just what 'facts' you want to force down peoples' throats and which
:> you want to forbid.
:>
:> So, just which 'facts' would you have them teach?
:>
:
:Physics, Maths, Chemistry, Geography, English, MFL, Biology etc.  All of 
:these have plenty of facts, for a given value of truth. 
:

Well, no.  Most of those have THEORIES, not 'Truth' or 'facts'.  Once
you've done math, English, and geography you're pretty much done with
'facts'.

So how's your 'religion', which you want taught, any different than
the others, which you want prohibited?

-- 
"The supreme satisfaction is to be able to despise one’s 
 neighbour and this fact goes far to account for religious 
 intolerance. It is evidently consoling to reflect that the 
 people next door are headed for hell." 
                                   -- Aleister Crowley

"Number Two"  wrote in message 
news:4832ad0a$0$10632$fa0fcedb@news.zen.co.uk...
>
> "John of Aix"  wrote
>
>> Freedom of choice? Why not Scientolgy schools, Flat Earth schools, 
>> Creationist schools, Flying Spaghetti Monster schools?
>
> Yes, absolutely.
>
> The curriculum should include all of the above, even if it is only one 
> lesson each.
>
> Why are the beliefs of Scientology always mocked?

Because it is characterized by a belief in the power of a person's spirit to 
clear itself of past painful experiences through self-knowledge and 
spiritual fulfilment.
Can't be having that now can we? Not nearly enough mass murder of 
unbelievers involved.

"deemsbill@aol.com"  wrote:

:On May 20, 6:27 am, Fred J. McCall  wrote:
:> Halmyre  wrote:
:>
:> :On 19 May, 13:32, "Number Two"  wrote:
:> :> "KJ"  wrote
:> :>
:> :> > agreed...there should be no schools organised an run by any denomination
:> :> > of fantasists whether they by Cof E, Jewish, Catholic, Hindu or Muslim
:> :>
:> :> You are, as usual, completely incorrect.
:> :>
:> :> There should be schools of all faiths as well as non-denomination schools.
:> :>
:> :> It's about freedom of choice, not restricting it, you moron.
:> :
:> :If people believe in a deity, why do they need a publicly-funded
:> :institution to facilitate their belief?
:> :
:>
:> A very good question.  So why do you?
:>
:
:   Do you think that religious schools should be publically funded?
:

Do you?  Keep in mind that the current public schools are 'religious
schools'; it's just that their religion is atheism.

-- 
"The supreme satisfaction is to be able to despise one’s 
 neighbour and this fact goes far to account for religious 
 intolerance. It is evidently consoling to reflect that the 
 people next door are headed for hell." 
                                   -- Aleister Crowley

On Tue, 20 May 2008 07:45:42 -0700, Fred J. McCall
 wrote:

>:> The only difference between you and the folks running the madrasas is
>:> just what 'facts' you want to force down peoples' throats and which
>:> you want to forbid.

>:> So, just which 'facts' would you have them teach?

>:Physics, Maths, Chemistry, Geography, English, MFL, Biology etc.  All of 
>:these have plenty of facts, for a given value of truth. 

>Well, no.  Most of those have THEORIES, not 'Truth' or 'facts'.  Once
>you've done math, English, and geography you're pretty much done with
>'facts'.

Science has theories that are based upon a lot of observation and
predictive experimentation.  All of which is also taught so that the
student can decide for themself how probable it is that the theory is
correct.

IMO students should be taught that most history is highly subject to
distortion by historians with an agenda and so the things that are
accepted as being factual accounts of what went on in past times are
not necessarily completely true.

-- 
Cynic

On Wed, 21 May 2008 00:36:04 +1000, "Adam Whyte-Settlar" <none@none>
wrote:

>> At one time there were dozens of Jesus's foreskins in churches across
>> Europe. He must have had a big dick.

>Holy prepuce!
>But not necessarily so - it could be just an interesting variation of the 
>'loaves and fishes' myth.

Unfortunatly the last surviving example of Jesus's knob end
disappeared from its sanctuary in the Italian town of Calcata in the
1980's.

It was last seen when it was carried on its annual procession around
the town on the Feast of the Circumcision in 1983. 

Some say it was stolen, but I prefer to believe it ascended into
heaven where it was reunited with its owners nether part. 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holy_Prepuce

Svenne

Cynic  wrote:

:On Tue, 20 May 2008 07:45:42 -0700, Fred J. McCall
: wrote:
:
:>:> The only difference between you and the folks running the madrasas is
:>:> just what 'facts' you want to force down peoples' throats and which
:>:> you want to forbid.
:
:>:> So, just which 'facts' would you have them teach?
:
:>:Physics, Maths, Chemistry, Geography, English, MFL, Biology etc.  All of 
:>:these have plenty of facts, for a given value of truth. 
:
:>Well, no.  Most of those have THEORIES, not 'Truth' or 'facts'.  Once
:>you've done math, English, and geography you're pretty much done with
:>'facts'.
:
:Science has theories that are based upon a lot of observation and
:predictive experimentation.  All of which is also taught so that the
:student can decide for themself how probable it is that the theory is
:correct.
:

But aren't they still taking the contents of the book 'on faith'?  I
mean, it's not like they're going all those experiments.  They're
taking someone's word for them and are frequently not taught that
experimenters tend to throw out inconvenient results.

If Milliken hadn't done that on his oil drop experiment we'd have
discovered that some particles have partial charges much, much earlier
than we did.  Milliken's results showed them but they didn't 'fit' and
so got tossed out as experimental error.

:IMO students should be taught that most history is highly subject to
:distortion by historians with an agenda and so the things that are
:accepted as being factual accounts of what went on in past times are
:not necessarily completely true.

That too.  Winners write the history and when they don't it is
reconstructed after the fact by folks who have their own agendas.

-- 
"The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable 
 man persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, 
 all progress depends on the unreasonable man."
                                      --George Bernard Shaw

"Adam Whyte-Settlar" <none@none> wrote

>> Why are the beliefs of Scientology always mocked?
>
> Because it is characterized by a belief in the power of a person's spirit 
> to clear itself of past painful experiences through self-knowledge and 
> spiritual fulfilment.
> Can't be having that now can we? Not nearly enough mass murder of 
> unbelievers involved.

<grin> I'm starting to like you.

On Tue, 20 May 2008 08:32:54 -0700, Fred J. McCall
 wrote:

>:Science has theories that are based upon a lot of observation and
>:predictive experimentation.  All of which is also taught so that the
>:student can decide for themself how probable it is that the theory is
>:correct.

>But aren't they still taking the contents of the book 'on faith'?  I
>mean, it's not like they're going all those experiments.  They're
>taking someone's word for them and are frequently not taught that
>experimenters tend to throw out inconvenient results.

The point is that the methods used to arrive at the theories are
taught alongside the theories.  Anything that can be verified or
refuted by *anyone* conducting their own experiment is far more likely
to be accurate than something that cannot be subjected to verification
at all.  The reason being that even if 99.999% of students are willing
to accept what they are told on faith, there is bound to be at least
one person who takes the trouble to check.  And all it would take is
just *one* person to find that the facts don't fit the theory to
discredit it.  Thus the probability that a completely incorrect theory
will survive for longer than a generation or so is very small.

The same is true wrt the logic used to marry the experimental results
to the theory - anyone is free to construct a different theory that
fits the experimental results.

Of course, none of the above will prevent a theory from being
*incomplete* - but that is also tauight to students, and for the most
part is in any case irrelevant.  Newton's laws are still used to good
effect even though we now know that they are incomplete descriptions
because they do not take account of relativistic effects.

-- 
Cynic

On May 20, 10:48 am, Fred J. McCall  wrote:
> "deemsb...@aol.com"  wrote:
>
> :On May 20, 6:27 am, Fred J. McCall  wrote::> Halmyre  wrote:
>
> :>
> :> :On 19 May, 13:32, "Number Two"  wrote:
> :> :> "KJ"  wrote
> :> :>
> :> :> > agreed...there should be no schools organised an run by any denomination
> :> :> > of fantasists whether they by Cof E, Jewish, Catholic, Hindu or Muslim
> :> :>
> :> :> You are, as usual, completely incorrect.
> :> :>
> :> :> There should be schools of all faiths as well as non-denomination schools.
> :> :>
> :> :> It's about freedom of choice, not restricting it, you moron.
> :> :
> :> :If people believe in a deity, why do they need a publicly-funded
> :> :institution to facilitate their belief?
> :> :
> :>
> :> A very good question.  So why do you?
> :>
> :
> :   Do you think that religious schools should be publically funded?
> :
>
> Do you?  Keep in mind that the current public schools are 'religious
> schools'; it's just that their religion is atheism.
>
>

  No. Atheism is not a religion.

"Fred J. McCall"  wrote in message 
news:gqo5349b10nqljsr0cphcp4p5kp8nj7rvs@4ax.com...

> :
> :Physics, Maths, Chemistry, Geography, English, MFL, Biology etc.  All of
> :these have plenty of facts, for a given value of truth.
> :
>
> Well, no.  Most of those have THEORIES, not 'Truth' or 'facts'.  Once
> you've done math, English, and geography you're pretty much done with
> 'facts'.
>
> So how's your 'religion', which you want taught, any different than
> the others, which you want prohibited?

You missed, or chosen to ignore, the most important part of that statement, 
that is "for a given value of truth".

I could teach the pupils about electricity transmission by electron spin but 
the maths, the theory and the modelling would blow thier minds.  Now we tell 
them that current flows and the system works, "for a given value of truth".

Your preposition that three subjects cover the whole spectrum of what can be 
described as "truth" is flawed.  Each subject has a "given value of truth". 
We can all say that 1+1=2 for any system of base >2, but what about Fractal 
Chaos Theory which is debated.  We have a "given value of truth".  From the 
teachings of the Bible theologians worked out that the world is just over 
4000 years old BUT we have geological proof that the world is millions of 
years old so geography is true only for a given value of true.

My position is that Re should be taught, for a given value of truth, but 
that no religious organisation should have any say in the management of 
education because then we get a clash between what is fact and dogma.

Get the idea?  There is always a "given value of truth" in anything we 
teach.  BTW, guess what I do for a job?

"Oso" <osobear(beard)@ntlworld.com> wrote in message 
news:rRDYj.6736$DZ6.1953@text.news.virginmedia.com...
>
> "Fred J. McCall"  wrote in message 
> news:gqo5349b10nqljsr0cphcp4p5kp8nj7rvs@4ax.com...
>
>> :
>> :Physics, Maths, Chemistry, Geography, English, MFL, Biology etc.  All of
>> :these have plenty of facts, for a given value of truth.
>> :
>>
>> Well, no.  Most of those have THEORIES, not 'Truth' or 'facts'.  Once
>> you've done math, English, and geography you're pretty much done with
>> 'facts'.
>>
>> So how's your 'religion', which you want taught, any different than
>> the others, which you want prohibited?
>
> You missed, or chosen to ignore, the most important part of that 
> statement, that is "for a given value of truth".
>
> I could teach the pupils about electricity transmission by electron spin 
> but the maths, the theory and the modelling would blow thier minds.  Now 
> we tell them that current flows and the system works, "for a given value 
> of truth".
>
> Your preposition that three subjects cover the whole spectrum of what can 
> be described as "truth" is flawed.  Each subject has a "given value of 
> truth". We can all say that 1+1=2 for any system of base >2, but what 
> about Fractal Chaos Theory which is debated.  We have a "given value of 
> truth".  From the teachings of the Bible theologians worked out that the 
> world is just over 4000 years old BUT we have geological proof that the 
> world is millions of years old so geography is true only for a given value 
> of true.
>
> My position is that Re should be taught, for a given value of truth, but 
> that no religious organisation should have any say in the management of 
> education because then we get a clash between what is fact and dogma.
>
> Get the idea?  There is always a "given value of truth" in anything we 
> teach.  BTW, guess what I do for a job?
 oops typo -"their"

"Steve Greene" <stephen_greene.@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
news:82n134poh8aaksjq3lum172h2fibot886b@4ax.com...
>
http://news.scotsman.com/latestnews/Salmond-backs-plans-for-Islamic.4095303.
jp
>
> SCOTLAND'S first state-funded Islamic school could get the go-ahead
> within months after First Minister Alex Salmond declared he was
> "sympathetic" towards the controversial move.
>
> Campaigners are planning to submit a detailed proposal for the faith
> school to Glasgow City Council within two months and officials last
> night confirmed they would consult on the proposal.
>
> But former Scottish education minister Sam Galbraith condemned the move
> as a "retrograde step", arguing that it would be bad for the Muslim
> community by hindering integration.
>
> Scotland has around 43,000 Muslims, about 18,000 of them in Glasgow.
> While there are more than 100 Islamic schools south of the border, both
> private and state-supported, Scottish Muslims have so far failed to
> establish a faith school and some in the community question whether it
> is a good idea in an age of increased ethnic and religious tension.
>
> Scotland has more than 400 publicly funded Roman Catholic schools as
> well as three state-supported Scottish Episcopalian schools and a
> publicly funded Jewish school.
>
> A spokesman for Salmond said: "We are very much sympathetic to the idea.
> The First Minister is supportive. He thinks that faith schools are a
> good thing and they make a great contribution to Scotland. The issue is
> whether there is a sustainable demand for them.
>
 " A sustainable demand"   -hilarious !  The population of Pakistan is 165
million, the population of Bangladesh is 150 million, the population of
Nigeria is 67 million (Muslims), the population of Turkey is 72 million, the
population of India is 151 million (Muslims). -the man is obviously an
IMBECILE !
.

On Wed, 21 May 2008 00:07:19 +1000
"Adam Whyte-Settlar" <none@none> wrote:

> 
> "Number Two"  wrote in message 
> news:4832adaa$0$26093$db0fefd9@news.zen.co.uk...
> >
> > "Adam Whyte-Settlar" <none@none> wrote
> >
> >>>> Perhaps I should rephrase: education should include all faiths.
> >>>
> >>> Quite. As others and you have said, they are part of general
> >>> culture but to educate people on (not in) all faiths means that
> >>> the schools have to be non-denominational otherwise they are
> >>> inevitably biased..
> >>
> >> It's totally impractical. There are at least 4,200 religions in
> >> the world.
> >> To learn even the basics about them would take up the entire
> >> school curriculum for years.
> >
> > Possibly, but if my kids can spend an entire two hour history
> > lesson just listening to The Beatles and The Rolling Stones then
> > surely there is sufficient time to discuss the origins and
> > principles of some of them?
> 
> Mick Jagger has principles!?
> Jeez! Whatever became of the counter-culture?
> 
> >> Jeez. Are *all* religions that insane?
> >
> > IME, yes. However, not all followers of religions are fruitcakes.
> 
> I agree - a significant minority are merely harmless crackpots.
> They all have one thing in common however - their bloated egos simply
> can't accept that their life is as ultimately as pointless, brutal
> and short as everyone elses.
> I would concede that the evolution of mass delusion makes for
> fascinating study - I just feel that the era of bronze-age mythology
> and it's 4,200 branches is over and the time could be better spent
> studying something more practical and relevant to life in the 21st
> century. Like how to avoid repeating the last 3 millenia or so of
> genocidal religious wars for example.

Yes, that would be a nice starting point. But I'd include many
political ideologies in that mass delusion.

Pellucid wrote:
> "Steve Greene" <stephen_greene.@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
> news:82n134poh8aaksjq3lum172h2fibot886b@4ax.com...
> http://news.scotsman.com/latestnews/Salmond-backs-plans-for-Islamic.4095303.
> jp
>> SCOTLAND'S first state-funded Islamic school could get the go-ahead
>> within months after First Minister Alex Salmond declared he was
>> "sympathetic" towards the controversial move.
>>
>> Campaigners are planning to submit a detailed proposal for the faith
>> school to Glasgow City Council within two months and officials last
>> night confirmed they would consult on the proposal.
>>
>> But former Scottish education minister Sam Galbraith condemned the move
>> as a "retrograde step", arguing that it would be bad for the Muslim
>> community by hindering integration.
>>
>> Scotland has around 43,000 Muslims, about 18,000 of them in Glasgow.
>> While there are more than 100 Islamic schools south of the border, both
>> private and state-supported, Scottish Muslims have so far failed to
>> establish a faith school and some in the community question whether it
>> is a good idea in an age of increased ethnic and religious tension.
>>
>> Scotland has more than 400 publicly funded Roman Catholic schools as
>> well as three state-supported Scottish Episcopalian schools and a
>> publicly funded Jewish school.
>>
>> A spokesman for Salmond said: "We are very much sympathetic to the idea.
>> The First Minister is supportive. He thinks that faith schools are a
>> good thing and they make a great contribution to Scotland. The issue is
>> whether there is a sustainable demand for them.
>>
>  " A sustainable demand"   -hilarious !  The population of Pakistan is 165
> million, the population of Bangladesh is 150 million, the population of
> Nigeria is 67 million (Muslims), the population of Turkey is 72 million, the
> population of India is 151 million (Muslims). -the man is obviously an
> IMBECILE !
> .
> 
> 
its called evolution of populations...the strong survive.  Racists and 
idiot fascists are as doomed as Cro-Magnon...look to a bright future 
where our intelligent people influence Islam and change its 
effects...otherwise its war and goodbye to everything

On Tue, 20 May 2008 16:42:18 +0100, "Number Two"
 wrote:

>
>"Adam Whyte-Settlar" <none@none> wrote
>
>>> Why are the beliefs of Scientology always mocked?
>>
>> Because it is characterized by a belief in the power of a person's spirit 
>> to clear itself of past painful experiences through self-knowledge and 
>> spiritual fulfilment.
>> Can't be having that now can we? Not nearly enough mass murder of 
>> unbelievers involved.
>
><grin> I'm starting to like you.
>
Scientology is mocked because it is the result  of l ron Hubbard
(known as Elron the scammer) winning a bet with Eric Frank Russel that
Hubbard could start a new religion and get the mugs to join. Bet
reputed to have been made at a science fiction convention in the South
of France in the early 60s

"KJ"  wrote in message
news:taydnaTy3NeMjK7VRVnyuQA@bt.com...
> Pellucid wrote:
> > "Steve Greene" <stephen_greene.@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
> > news:82n134poh8aaksjq3lum172h2fibot886b@4ax.com...
> >
http://news.scotsman.com/latestnews/Salmond-backs-plans-for-Islamic.4095303.
> > jp
> >> SCOTLAND'S first state-funded Islamic school could get the go-ahead
> >> within months after First Minister Alex Salmond declared he was
> >> "sympathetic" towards the controversial move.
> >>
> >> Campaigners are planning to submit a detailed proposal for the faith
> >> school to Glasgow City Council within two months and officials last
> >> night confirmed they would consult on the proposal.
> >>
> >> But former Scottish education minister Sam Galbraith condemned the move
> >> as a "retrograde step", arguing that it would be bad for the Muslim
> >> community by hindering integration.
> >>
> >> Scotland has around 43,000 Muslims, about 18,000 of them in Glasgow.
> >> While there are more than 100 Islamic schools south of the border, both
> >> private and state-supported, Scottish Muslims have so far failed to
> >> establish a faith school and some in the community question whether it
> >> is a good idea in an age of increased ethnic and religious tension.
> >>
> >> Scotland has more than 400 publicly funded Roman Catholic schools as
> >> well as three state-supported Scottish Episcopalian schools and a
> >> publicly funded Jewish school.
> >>
> >> A spokesman for Salmond said: "We are very much sympathetic to the
idea.
> >> The First Minister is supportive. He thinks that faith schools are a
> >> good thing and they make a great contribution to Scotland. The issue is
> >> whether there is a sustainable demand for them.
> >>
> >  " A sustainable demand"   -hilarious !  The population of Pakistan is
165
> > million, the population of Bangladesh is 150 million, the population of
> > Nigeria is 67 million (Muslims), the population of Turkey is 72 million,
the
> > population of India is 151 million (Muslims). -the man is obviously an
> > IMBECILE !
> > .
> >
> >
> its called evolution of populations...the strong survive.  Racists and
> idiot fascists are as doomed as Cro-Magnon...look to a bright future
> where our intelligent people influence Islam and change its
> effects...otherwise its war and goodbye to everything
>
To iterate, you are an IMBECILE.
.

"deemsbill@aol.com"  wrote:

:On May 20, 10:48 am, Fred J. McCall  wrote:
:> "deemsb...@aol.com"  wrote:
:>
:> :On May 20, 6:27 am, Fred J. McCall  wrote::> Halmyre  wrote:
:>
:> :>
:> :> :On 19 May, 13:32, "Number Two"  wrote:
:> :> :> "KJ"  wrote
:> :> :>
:> :> :> > agreed...there should be no schools organised an run by any denomination
:> :> :> > of fantasists whether they by Cof E, Jewish, Catholic, Hindu or Muslim
:> :> :>
:> :> :> You are, as usual, completely incorrect.
:> :> :>
:> :> :> There should be schools of all faiths as well as non-denomination schools.
:> :> :>
:> :> :> It's about freedom of choice, not restricting it, you moron.
:> :> :
:> :> :If people believe in a deity, why do they need a publicly-funded
:> :> :institution to facilitate their belief?
:> :> :
:> :>
:> :> A very good question.  So why do you?
:> :>
:> :
:> :   Do you think that religious schools should be publically funded?
:> :
:>
:> Do you?  Keep in mind that the current public schools are 'religious
:> schools'; it's just that their religion is atheism.
:>
:
:  No. Atheism is not a religion.
:

Really?  How do you KNOW that some god or other does not exist?

-- 
"The supreme satisfaction is to be able to despise one’s 
 neighbour and this fact goes far to account for religious 
 intolerance. It is evidently consoling to reflect that the 
 people next door are headed for hell." 
                                   -- Aleister Crowley

"Oso" <osobear(beard)@ntlworld.com> wrote:
:
:"Fred J. McCall"  wrote in message 
:news:gqo5349b10nqljsr0cphcp4p5kp8nj7rvs@4ax.com...
:
:> :
:> :Physics, Maths, Chemistry, Geography, English, MFL, Biology etc.  All of
:> :these have plenty of facts, for a given value of truth.
:> :
:>
:> Well, no.  Most of those have THEORIES, not 'Truth' or 'facts'.  Once
:> you've done math, English, and geography you're pretty much done with
:> 'facts'.
:>
:> So how's your 'religion', which you want taught, any different than
:> the others, which you want prohibited?
:
:You missed, or chosen to ignore, the most important part of that statement, 
:that is "for a given value of truth".
:
:I could teach the pupils about electricity transmission by electron spin but 
:the maths, the theory and the modelling would blow thier minds.  Now we tell 
:them that current flows and the system works, "for a given value of truth".
:
:Your preposition that three subjects cover the whole spectrum of what can be 
:described as "truth" is flawed.  Each subject has a "given value of truth". 
:We can all say that 1+1=2 for any system of base >2, but what about Fractal 
:Chaos Theory which is debated.  We have a "given value of truth".  From the 
:teachings of the Bible theologians worked out that the world is just over 
:4000 years old BUT we have geological proof that the world is millions of 
:years old so geography is true only for a given value of true.
:
:My position is that Re should be taught, for a given value of truth, but 
:that no religious organisation should have any say in the management of 
:education because then we get a clash between what is fact and dogma.
:

And 'religion' (as you define it) also has its "given value of truth".
You just don't like theirs.

Again, why is yours different from anyone else's?

:
:Get the idea?  There is always a "given value of truth" in anything we 
:teach.  BTW, guess what I do for a job? 
:

Village idiot?

-- 
"The supreme satisfaction is to be able to despise one’s 
 neighbour and this fact goes far to account for religious 
 intolerance. It is evidently consoling to reflect that the 
 people next door are headed for hell." 
                                   -- Aleister Crowley

On May 20, 11:03 pm, Fred J. McCall  wrote:
> "deemsb...@aol.com"  wrote:
>
> :On May 20, 10:48 am, Fred J. McCall  wrote::> "deemsb...@aol.com"  wrote:
>
> :>
> :> :On May 20, 6:27 am, Fred J. McCall  wrote::> Halmyre  wrote:
> :>
> :> :>
> :> :> :On 19 May, 13:32, "Number Two"  wrote:> :> :> :> "KJ"  wrote
> :> :> :>
> :> :> :> > agreed...there should be no schools organised an run by any denomination
> :> :> :> > of fantasists whether they by Cof E, Jewish, Catholic, Hindu or Muslim
> :> :> :>
> :> :> :> You are, as usual, completely incorrect.
> :> :> :>
> :> :> :> There should be schools of all faiths as well as non-denomination schools.
> :> :> :>
> :> :> :> It's about freedom of choice, not restricting it, you moron.
> :> :> :
> :> :> :If people believe in a deity, why do they need a publicly-funded
> :> :> :institution to facilitate their belief?
> :> :> :
> :> :>
> :> :> A very good question.  So why do you?
> :> :>
> :> :
> :> :   Do you think that religious schools should be publically funded?
> :> :
> :>
> :> Do you?  Keep in mind that the current public schools are 'religious
> :> schools'; it's just that their religion is atheism.
> :>
> :
> :  No. Atheism is not a religion.
> :
>
> Really?  How do you KNOW that some god or other does not exist?
>
>

  Now you're just bein' silly.

"Fred J. McCall"  wrote in message 
news:va4734peqf8i7hsaadsfosc1c58nvkk94e@4ax.com...
> "Oso" <osobear(beard)@ntlworld.com> wrote:
> :
> :"Fred J. McCall"  wrote in message
> :news:gqo5349b10nqljsr0cphcp4p5kp8nj7rvs@4ax.com...
> :
> :> :
> :> :Physics, Maths, Chemistry, Geography, English, MFL, Biology etc.  All 
> of
> :> :these have plenty of facts, for a given value of truth.
> :> :
> :>
> :> Well, no.  Most of those have THEORIES, not 'Truth' or 'facts'.  Once
> :> you've done math, English, and geography you're pretty much done with
> :> 'facts'.
> :>
> :> So how's your 'religion', which you want taught, any different than
> :> the others, which you want prohibited?
> :
> :You missed, or chosen to ignore, the most important part of that 
> statement,
> :that is "for a given value of truth".
> :
> :I could teach the pupils about electricity transmission by electron spin 
> but
> :the maths, the theory and the modelling would blow thier minds.  Now we 
> tell
> :them that current flows and the system works, "for a given value of 
> truth".
> :
> :Your preposition that three subjects cover the whole spectrum of what can 
> be
> :described as "truth" is flawed.  Each subject has a "given value of 
> truth".
> :We can all say that 1+1=2 for any system of base >2, but what about 
> Fractal
> :Chaos Theory which is debated.  We have a "given value of truth".  From 
> the
> :teachings of the Bible theologians worked out that the world is just over
> :4000 years old BUT we have geological proof that the world is millions of
> :years old so geography is true only for a given value of true.
> :
> :My position is that Re should be taught, for a given value of truth, but
> :that no religious organisation should have any say in the management of
> :education because then we get a clash between what is fact and dogma.
> :
>
> And 'religion' (as you define it) also has its "given value of truth".
> You just don't like theirs.
>
> Again, why is yours different from anyone else's?
>
> :
> :Get the idea?  There is always a "given value of truth" in anything we
> :teach.  BTW, guess what I do for a job?
> :
>
> Village idiot?

Ah, I see your high debating style.  I rip your puerile and specious 
argument to shreds and you retort with personal attacks.

When you can be bothered to enter into rational and reasoned debate, you can 
come back and talk to me.

I'll express my opinion in simple terms so that even you can understand it. 
Take religion out of the management of schools.   Teach about religions in 
Schools.

"Pellucid"  wrote in message 
news:9eOdnf7c3p2kiK7VnZ2dnUVZ8qfinZ2d@brightview.com...
> "KJ"  wrote in message
> news:taydnaTy3NeMjK7VRVnyuQA@bt.com...
>> Pellucid wrote:
>> > "Steve Greene" <stephen_greene.@hotmail.com.invalid> wrote in message
>> > news:82n134poh8aaksjq3lum172h2fibot886b@4ax.com...
>> >
> http://news.scotsman.com/latestnews/Salmond-backs-plans-for-Islamic.4095303.
>> > jp
>> >> SCOTLAND'S first state-funded Islamic school could get the go-ahead
>> >> within months after First Minister Alex Salmond declared he was
>> >> "sympathetic" towards the controversial move.
>> >>
>> >> Campaigners are planning to submit a detailed proposal for the faith
>> &