I'm not sure about the rules as I couldn't find anything useful on the net. 
Last week I had to take a couple of days off work to take my son (Just 7) to 
hospital.  On removal the leg was very swollen and bruised and subsequently 
I took another day off work to look after him as he was having quite a bit 
of pain and discomfort.   I was then reprimanded for doing so.  What is the 
official line on this?  Also as teachers are we allowed to have time off 
during the day to see dentists etc?  I only ask this as my head seems to do 
this at least once a week.  Are head teachers allowed time off for personal 
reasons more than teachers?  I couldn't find anything about the minimum 
number of hours a head is required to do.  It just seems to be a climate of 
double standards.

Thanks for any help.

Grumbler burbled:

>I'm not sure about the rules as I couldn't find anything useful on the net. 
>Last week I had to take a couple of days off work to take my son (Just 7) to 
>hospital.  On removal the leg was very swollen and bruised and subsequently 
>I took another day off work to look after him as he was having quite a bit 
>of pain and discomfort.   I was then reprimanded for doing so.  What is the 
>official line on this?  Also as teachers are we allowed to have time off 
>during the day to see dentists etc?  

I don't think so.

>I only ask this as my head seems to do 
>this at least once a week.  

These are usually called courses and meetings.
One local HT was spotted in Debenhams by a part-time teacher from the
same school.
The HT made that teacher's life hell after that.

>Are head teachers allowed time off for personal 
>reasons more than teachers?  

I don't think so, but in practice many do so - from arriving late and
leaving early, to having whole days and more off, with the DH trying
to cover while also knowing nothing about it.

>I couldn't find anything about the minimum 
>number of hours a head is required to do.  It just seems to be a climate of 
>double standards.

The teachers' hours don't apply to HTs.
-- 
Sheel          (Change me to me2 to email.)

Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will whiz on your computer.

What a load of crap ---most HT work longer hours and stay at school for 
longer than most of their staff -- Fact..

How many staff attend Governors meetings -- PTA meetings - till 10 pm?? 
several time in a week --  they would soon be moaning..

Staff are allowed to take children or any other member of their family to 
the doctors or dentist - in an emergency.. that is clear and common sense.. 
It is also common courtesy for the same member of staff to inform the head 
if more time would be required  -- so that cover could be arranged etc...

Head teachers do not have defined hours -- most have to work 365 day --- IF 
the LEA requires them to.. teacher do have defined hours..

Head teachers do have to attend meetings away from school usually at their 
own expense -- how many heads claim travel cost?? Teachers are the first to 
put the travel claims in !!




-- 
(All Incoming and Outgoing Emails Scanned With Norton Antivirus 2007)

"Sheel"  wrote in message 
news:d0tvf3pk81tkjb2hhrsuj9m3o0233628fd@4ax.com...
> Grumbler burbled:
>
>>I'm not sure about the rules as I couldn't find anything useful on the 
>>net.
>>Last week I had to take a couple of days off work to take my son (Just 7) 
>>to
>>hospital.  On removal the leg was very swollen and bruised and 
>>subsequently
>>I took another day off work to look after him as he was having quite a bit
>>of pain and discomfort.   I was then reprimanded for doing so.  What is 
>>the
>>official line on this?  Also as teachers are we allowed to have time off
>>during the day to see dentists etc?
>
> I don't think so.
>
>>I only ask this as my head seems to do
>>this at least once a week.
>
> These are usually called courses and meetings.
> One local HT was spotted in Debenhams by a part-time teacher from the
> same school.
> The HT made that teacher's life hell after that.
>
>>Are head teachers allowed time off for personal
>>reasons more than teachers?
>
> I don't think so, but in practice many do so - from arriving late and
> leaving early, to having whole days and more off, with the DH trying
> to cover while also knowing nothing about it.
>
>>I couldn't find anything about the minimum
>>number of hours a head is required to do.  It just seems to be a climate 
>>of
>>double standards.
>
> The teachers' hours don't apply to HTs.
> -- 
> Sheel          (Change me to me2 to email.)
>
> Do not meddle in the affairs of cats, for they are subtle and will whiz on 
> your computer.

jo warbled...
> 
> What a load of crap 

How helpful. 

> ---most HT work longer hours and stay at school for 
> longer than most of their staff -- Fact..

The word 'most' noted. However, work is not only carried out at school - 
not by Heads or by classroom teachers.

> How many staff attend Governors meetings -- PTA meetings - till 10 pm?? 
> several time in a week --  they would soon be moaning..

Eh? How many schools have several governors meetings in a week?
In our area, they start within the school day anyway and are finished by 
about 5pm.
and I suppose the answer to your question is 'the number of staff that 
are on the GB'.

> Staff are allowed to take children or any other member of their family to 
> the doctors or dentist - in an emergency.. that is clear and common sense.. 
> It is also common courtesy for the same member of staff to inform the head 
> if more time would be required  -- so that cover could be arranged etc...

Courtesy and common sense, yes. It doesn't *always* happen though.

> Head teachers do not have defined hours -- most have to work 365 day --- IF 
> the LEA requires them to.. teacher do have defined hours..

Headteachers rarely have to work any extra days. They also get paid a 
lot more, partly for this very reason.
 
> Head teachers do have to attend meetings away from school usually at their 
> own expense -- how many heads claim travel cost?? Teachers are the first to 
> put the travel claims in !!
> 
Where are you working? I want a job there! Travel expenses? I vaguely 
remember them... from when I was seconded to the LEA!!!

If teachers are lucky enough to be able to claim then why shouldn't 
they? They don't get paid a King's ransom and every little helps. So a 
Head has to attend a couple more meetings? They have the time to do it!

-- 
Bev.

My school has a governor meeting every week - I always attend not all of my 
staff do, they are not on all the committees - I am.

We also have PTA meetings most weeks.

Last week - in the course of my job I travelled 984 miles to visit other 
schools -- on three occasions did not get home till after 9.30 pm, explain 
that to my partner..

I do ensure that if any member of staff uses transport on duty they are 
reimbursed for doing so.. The only problems with that were when I had two 
new members of staff who had never been used to getting reimbursed -- they 
tried to take the system for a ride.. the other members of staff soon sorted 
them out after I said no more..

My staff all know that they can attend emergency hospital or take sick 
children to hospital but they always do me the courtesy of ringing to let me 
know. It is a matter of arranging cover more than anything else, and they 
can always self certify sick ..

During the floods --- the headteachers were expected to be at the schools --  
even though the staff were on holiday.

I still do teach and have been teaching for 35 years -- so I do know both 
sides --

Teachers and all the support staff, do a wonderful job and I treasure all 
the staff -- but don't knock the head teacher because you don't see what 
they are doing.. they are probably fighting your corner at County hall !!

And I am not Warbling --

I am singing..



-- 
(All Incoming and Outgoing Emails Scanned With Norton Antivirus 2007)

"Bev"  wrote in message 
news:MPG.216b5ea4c093c51b98a0a6@news.fireflyuk.net...
> jo warbled...
>>
>> What a load of crap
>
> How helpful.
>
>> ---most HT work longer hours and stay at school for
>> longer than most of their staff -- Fact..
>
> The word 'most' noted. However, work is not only carried out at school -
> not by Heads or by classroom teachers.
>
>> How many staff attend Governors meetings -- PTA meetings - till 10 pm??
>> several time in a week --  they would soon be moaning..
>
> Eh? How many schools have several governors meetings in a week?
> In our area, they start within the school day anyway and are finished by
> about 5pm.
> and I suppose the answer to your question is 'the number of staff that
> are on the GB'.
>
>> Staff are allowed to take children or any other member of their family to
>> the doctors or dentist - in an emergency.. that is clear and common 
>> sense..
>> It is also common courtesy for the same member of staff to inform the 
>> head
>> if more time would be required  -- so that cover could be arranged etc...
>
> Courtesy and common sense, yes. It doesn't *always* happen though.
>
>> Head teachers do not have defined hours -- most have to work 365 day ---  
>> IF
>> the LEA requires them to.. teacher do have defined hours..
>
> Headteachers rarely have to work any extra days. They also get paid a
> lot more, partly for this very reason.
>
>> Head teachers do have to attend meetings away from school usually at 
>> their
>> own expense -- how many heads claim travel cost?? Teachers are the first 
>> to
>> put the travel claims in !!
>>
> Where are you working? I want a job there! Travel expenses? I vaguely
> remember them... from when I was seconded to the LEA!!!
>
> If teachers are lucky enough to be able to claim then why shouldn't
> they? They don't get paid a King's ransom and every little helps. So a
> Head has to attend a couple more meetings? They have the time to do it!
>
> -- 
> Bev.

"jo"  wrote in message
news:rQuMi.16007$ao.1227@newsfe7-win.ntli.net...
> My school has a governor meeting every week - I always attend not all of
> my staff do, they are not on all the committees - I am.
>
> We also have PTA meetings most weeks.
>
> Last week - in the course of my job I travelled 984 miles to visit other
> schools -- on three occasions did not get home till after 9.30 pm, explain
> that to my partner..
>
> I do ensure that if any member of staff uses transport on duty they are
> reimbursed for doing so.. The only problems with that were when I had two
> new members of staff who had never been used to getting reimbursed -- they
> tried to take the system for a ride.. the other members of staff soon
> sorted them out after I said no more..
>
> My staff all know that they can attend emergency hospital or take sick
> children to hospital but they always do me the courtesy of ringing to let
> me know. It is a matter of arranging cover more than anything else, and
> they can always self certify sick ..
>
> During the floods --- the headteachers were expected to be at the
> schools --  even though the staff were on holiday.
>
> I still do teach and have been teaching for 35 years -- so I do know both
> sides --
>
> Teachers and all the support staff, do a wonderful job and I treasure all
> the staff -- but don't knock the head teacher because you don't see what
> they are doing.. they are probably fighting your corner at County hall !!
>
> And I am not Warbling --
>
> I am singing..
>

Brilliant post (and riposte) - well done...!!!


-- 
Martin

jo warbled...
> My school has a governor meeting every week - 

Then you're doing something wrong!

> I always attend not all of my 
> staff do, they are not on all the committees - I am.

So you are a Head then? And one who obviously feels she works so much 
harder than the rest of her staff. Are you a teaching head?

> We also have PTA meetings most weeks.

You're lucky you get parents to turn up that often. Watch you don't 
overdo a good thing.

> Last week - in the course of my job I travelled 984 miles to visit other 
> schools -- on three occasions did not get home till after 9.30 pm, explain 
> that to my partner..

I don't need to. You're the one with the partner. From the fact you have 
one, I surmise you must have something of a home life (and there's 
nothing wrong with having one except you seem to be indiating 
otherwise).

Why did you travel such distances, don't you have decent schools in your 
area? And are you honestly telling us that it's par for the course for 
you to do that sort of mileage? As an advisor travelling to different 
schools each day I wouldn't clock that sort of mileage in an average 
week.

> I do ensure that if any member of staff uses transport on duty they are 
> reimbursed for doing so.. The only problems with that were when I had two 
> new members of staff who had never been used to getting reimbursed -- they 
> tried to take the system for a ride.. the other members of staff soon sorted 
> them out after I said no more..
> 
> My staff all know that they can attend emergency hospital or take sick 
> children to hospital but they always do me the courtesy of ringing to let me 
> know. It is a matter of arranging cover more than anything else, and they 
> can always self certify sick ..

*Your* staff... aren't they the lucky ones then? So would most decent 
heads one would hope. However that doesn't mean the OP *has* such a head 
and for you to labvel it a pile of crap was insulting in the extreme. 
I;d expect better of someone in a leadership role.

> During the floods --- the headteachers were expected to be at the schools --  
> even though the staff were on holiday.

and of course *that* happens all over the country every couple of weeks, 
doesn't it? 
Nice to know you viewed it as a 'holiday' for your staff. You really 
don't appear to hold them in very high regard despite your statement 
below.

> I still do teach and have been teaching for 35 years -- so I do know both 
> sides --

If you are a teaching head with a class commitment part time, then on 
that score you have my utmost respect. It's one of the hardest jobs 
balancing both hats. However, if you mean you cover particular lessons a 
couple of times a week or cover for sickness, then I suspect you have 
forgotten what it was like to be in the classroom day in, day out, with 
the stresses that brings.

> Teachers and all the support staff, do a wonderful job and I treasure all 
> the staff -- but don't knock the head teacher because you don't see what 
> they are doing.. they are probably fighting your corner at County hall !!

I wasn't knocking heads in general, just your views in particular.
Despite your assumptions I *do* know what heads do... in the local LEAs 
anyway.
You seem to be presuming your experiences are shared nationwide.

> And I am not Warbling --
> 
> I am singing..

That'll be because you don't have 33 biographies and 32 sets of maths 
books to mark by tomorrow, before you start preparing the resources for 
the History lesson and then realise you've forgotten the celery for the 
science lesson and have to make a quick dash to Tesco's!

There are great hard-working heads.
Some aren't.
There are great hard-working teachers.
Some aren't.
here are great hard=working support staff.
I suppose there probably are some that aren't, but I haven't actually 
come across any of that particular breed that don't habitually put in 
more than they get paid for doing.

Don't judge every head by your own standards and denounce someone else's 
experiences as 'crap'. You can't speak for them all.

-- 
Bev.

Martin warbled...
> Brilliant post (and riposte) - well done...!!!
> 
Would you care to explain how you reach that conclusion?

-- 
Bev.

Bev burbled:

> jo warbled...
>> My school has a governor meeting every week - 
>
>Then you're doing something wrong!

snip

Brilliant post (and riposte) - well done...!!!
-- 
Sheel          (Change me to me2 to email.)

Clones are people two.

"jo"  wrote in message 
news:rQuMi.16007$ao.1227@newsfe7-win.ntli.net...
> My school has a governor meeting every week - I always attend not all of 
> my staff do, they are not on all the committees - I am.

Why? I am on one committee (as are the other governors, except for appeals, 
which luckily haven't counted so far), and including full governor meetings, 
with rare exceptions, there are two a term.

My HT therefore has 3 definite governer meetings a term, plus occasional 
extras. Combine your committees, it makes a huge difference.
>
> We also have PTA meetings most weeks.

Once a month.

What do you talk about at all these meetings?

(Genuine interest).

-- 
Ellie
Please take time to read the Charter & FAQs for uk.education.staffroom:
http://staffroom.wikispaces.com/Charter
http://staffroom.wikispaces.com/FAQs+for+ues

Sheel replied:
>Bev burbled:
>> jo warbled...
>>> My school has a governor meeting every week -
>>
>>Then you're doing something wrong!
>
>snip
>
>Brilliant post (and riposte) - well done...!!!

Would you care to explain how you reach that conclusion?
-- 
greebs

greebo warbled...
> 
> Sheel replied:
> >Bev burbled:
> >> jo warbled...
> >>> My school has a governor meeting every week -
> >>
> >>Then you're doing something wrong!
> >
> >snip
> >
> >Brilliant post (and riposte) - well done...!!!
> 
> Would you care to explain how you reach that conclusion?
> 
Awwwwwwww... I was just gonna say that!!!
-- 
Bev.

"Bev"  wrote in message 
news:MPG.216c9788f50a140f98a0b0@news.fireflyuk.net...
> Martin warbled...
>> Brilliant post (and riposte) - well done...!!!
>>
> Would you care to explain how you reach that conclusion?
>

Yes.  It was a balanced account of how a representative (IMHO) head spends 
some of his/her time in a representative week;  it did not deliberately 
distort the statements in a previous post;   and it was a calm, thoughtful 
and non-aggressive explanation.  Your reply to the same post doesn't begin 
to come close - I'll respond separately to help you understand.


-- 
Martin

"Bev"  wrote in message
news:MPG.216c975755f9c0e898a0af@news.fireflyuk.net...
> jo warbled...
>> My school has a governor meeting every week -
>
> Then you're doing something wrong!

No.  Jo explained that this includes committees.  Have you not come across
governing bodies which have sub-committees?

> So you are a Head then?

That adds nothing and your attempt to insult / deride shines through.

> And one who obviously feels she works so much
> harder than the rest of her staff.

Where does Jo mention the word "harder"?  Work is only hard if you're not
very good at it.

> Are you a teaching head?

Jo said s/he teaches (which you picked up later - well done).  So what
exactly is your question?

>> We also have PTA meetings most weeks.
>
> You're lucky

So good management / leadership and winning commitment of parents is a
matter of luck in your book?

> you get parents to turn up that often. Watch you don't
> overdo a good thing.

Patronising, or are you seriously suggesting Jo should unilaterally reduce
the frequency of PTA meetings?

>> Last week - in the course of my job I travelled 984 miles to visit other
>> schools -- on three occasions did not get home till after 9.30 pm,
>> explain
>> that to my partner..
>
> I don't need to. You're the one with the partner. From the fact you have
> one, I surmise you must have something of a home life (and there's
> nothing wrong with having one except you seem to be indiating
> otherwise).

Indicating how and where?  Please provide the quote.

> Why did you travel such distances, don't you have decent schools in your
> area?

What have decent schools got to do with it?  You don't know why the trips
were made.

> And are you honestly telling us that it's par for the course for
> you to do that sort of mileage?

You assume this kind of mileage is being covered each week.  Jo hasn't said 
that.

> As an advisor travelling to different
> schools each day I wouldn't clock that sort of mileage in an average
> week.

Obviously.  You're an advisor in your LEA so why would you, and why does the
fact you don't mean that Jo shouldn't have done so.

> *Your* staff... aren't they the lucky ones then?

You're simply being offensive.  Any good HT would feel proud and a bit
possessive of "their" staff.  You really don't get it, do you?  This isn't a
"school" thing - it's a management / leadership thing, in every profession,
when done well.

> and for you to labvel it a pile of crap was insulting in the extreme.

It was Sheel's post which Jo described as a poc.

> It's one of the hardest jobs
> balancing both hats.

See reference to "hard" above.

> forgotten what it was like to be in the classroom day in, day out, with
> the stresses that brings.

Oh yes - the stress of teaching.  I guess one has to have coped with that
jolly well to become a head.

> I wasn't knocking heads in general

Suggest you re-read your posts, including... "Headteachers rarely have to
work any extra days.".... "They also get paid a lot more, partly for this
very reason".  What reason? For not working extra days?  "So a
Head has to attend a couple more meetings? They have the time to do it!"

> Despite your assumptions I *do* know what heads do... in the local LEAs
> anyway.

As opposed to what other kind of LEAs?  Which LEA are you in?

> That'll be because you don't have 33 biographies and 32 sets of maths
> books to mark by tomorrow, before you start preparing the resources for
> the History lesson

You leave your prep that late?  Incidentally, is it usual for advisers to 
have marking to be done by the "next day" - or are you a p/t teacher and p/t 
advisor?

> and then realise you've forgotten the celery for the
> science lesson and have to make a quick dash to Tesco's!

Start with making lists, so you don't forget things.  Move up from there.

> There are great hard-working heads.
> Some aren't.
> There are great hard-working teachers.
> Some aren't.
> here are great hard=working support staff.
> I suppose there probably are some that aren't, but I haven't actually
> come across any of that particular breed that don't habitually put in
> more than they get paid for doing.

Once again, you're besotted with the notion of "hard work".  Omit that from
the above paragraph, and I'd start agreeing with you.

> Don't judge every head by your own standards and denounce someone else's
> experiences as 'crap'.

You clearly attributed Jo's phrase "poc" to the wrong post.

> You can't speak for them all.

If you can, why can't Jo?

You would be wise to read things carefully before responding with such a
tirade in future.  You may very well be a very conscientious adviser and all
that, but your unnecessarily offensive post has not enhanced your
credibility.


-- 
Martin

Martin burbled:


>It was Sheel's post which Jo described as a poc.


And my post was also about a real Head and did not have to stoop to
foul language.
-- 
Sheel          (Change me to me2 to email.)

Someday we'll look back on all this and plough into a parked car.

Martin warbled...
> 
> "Bev"  wrote in message 
> news:MPG.216c9788f50a140f98a0b0@news.fireflyuk.net...
> > Martin warbled...
> >> Brilliant post (and riposte) - well done...!!!
> >>
> > Would you care to explain how you reach that conclusion?
> >
> 
> Yes.  It was a balanced account of how a representative (IMHO) head spends 
> some of his/her time in a representative week; 

No it wasn't.
> it did not deliberately 
> distort the statements in a previous post;   

Neither did mine.
> and it was a calm, thoughtful 
> and non-aggressive explanation.  Your reply to the same post doesn't begin 
> to come close - I'll respond separately to help you understand.

My reply was in response to this:
"What a load of crap"
You call that calm, thoughtful and non-agressive?

-- 
Bev.

Martin warbled...
> 
> "Bev"  wrote in message
> news:MPG.216c975755f9c0e898a0af@news.fireflyuk.net...
> > jo warbled...
> >> My school has a governor meeting every week -
> >
> > Then you're doing something wrong!
> 
> No.  Jo explained that this includes committees.  Have you not come across
> governing bodies which have sub-committees?

Yes. UI've served on them and on several sub-committees at a time, but 
for goodness sake do the maths. Jo says she has one every week. In a 12 
week term that is 12 meetings. 

I know schools that seem to manage perfectly well with the absolute 
minimum of a finance committee and full termly governing body meeting. 
Now I'm not suggesting for one moment that *that* is good practice... 
but 10 additional meetings to those is excessive, and means that 
somethingsomwehere must be being badly managed. If governors are seeing 
a Head turn up to one evening meeting a week then they are not doing 
their bit to ensure that the school leadership receives opportunity for 
an 'appropriate work/life balance.'

> > So you are a Head then?
> 
> That adds nothing and your attempt to insult / deride shines through.

Oh good... derision was part of the intention, just as Jo derided the 
OP.

> > And one who obviously feels she works so much
> > harder than the rest of her staff.
> 
> Where does Jo mention the word "harder"?  Work is only hard if you're not
> very good at it.

Yaawwwwwnnnn. Fairy-tale land.
 
> > Are you a teaching head?
> 
> Jo said s/he teaches (which you picked up later - well done).  So what
> exactly is your question?

My question is, "Is she a teaching head?" ie. a head who has a regular 
responsibility for teaching a full class part time for a certain number 
of ays/sessions each week.

> >> We also have PTA meetings most weeks.
> >
> > You're lucky
> 
> So good management / leadership and winning commitment of parents is a
> matter of luck in your book?

Would you care to place that back in context or would it weaken your 
argument too much?

> > you get parents to turn up that often. Watch you don't
> > overdo a good thing.
> 
> Patronising, or are you seriously suggesting Jo should unilaterally reduce
> the frequency of PTA meetings?

I am suggesting that parents turn up voluntarily and no matter how 
interesting or sociable the PTA metings might be, those volunteers also 
have other lives and commitments.

> >> Last week - in the course of my job I travelled 984 miles to visit other
> >> schools -- on three occasions did not get home till after 9.30 pm,
> >> explain
> >> that to my partner..
> >
> > I don't need to. You're the one with the partner. From the fact you have
> > one, I surmise you must have something of a home life (and there's
> > nothing wrong with having one except you seem to be indiating
> > otherwise).
> 
> Indicating how and where?  Please provide the quote.

Certainly... I'll even throw in a couple of follow-up comments:

"most HT work longer hours and stay at school for 
longer than most of their staff -- Fact."

Not always - and stating that it is a fact does not make it so.

"How many staff attend Governors meetings -- PTA meetings - till 10 pm?? 
several time in a week --  they would soon be moaning.."

Notice how this later became 'once a week'?

"Head teachers do not have defined hours -- most have to work 365 day 
--- IF the LEA requires them to.."

Have you ever known this requirement to be carried out?

Plus, of course, the quote that led to my response:
"Last week - in the course of my job I travelled 984 miles to visit 
other schools -- on three occasions did not get home till after 9.30 pm, 
explain that to my partner.."

Now tell me that these don't add up to an indication that an appropriate 
home/school balance isn't being achieved by poor hard-working heads.
-- 
Bev.

Bev warbled...
> Oh good... derision was part of the intention, just as Jo derided the 
> OP.
> 
> 
My mistake, sorry ... Sheel was the second poster... but I still stand 
by every point I made.
-- 
Bev.

"Bev"  wrote in message 
news:MPG.216ccf854717a17998a0bc@news.fireflyuk.net...
> Martin warbled...
>>
>> "Bev"  wrote in message
>> news:MPG.216c9788f50a140f98a0b0@news.fireflyuk.net...
>> > Martin warbled...
>> >> Brilliant post (and riposte) - well done...!!!
>> >>
>> > Would you care to explain how you reach that conclusion?
>> >
>>
>> Yes.  It was a balanced account of how a representative (IMHO) head 
>> spends
>> some of his/her time in a representative week;
>
> No it wasn't.

Yes it was... :-)

Which thing are you saying it wasn't?

>> it did not deliberately
>> distort the statements in a previous post;
>
> Neither did mine.

I think it did.  See my other response.

>> and it was a calm, thoughtful
>> and non-aggressive explanation.  Your reply to the same post doesn't 
>> begin
>> to come close - I'll respond separately to help you understand.
>
> My reply was in response to this:
> "What a load of crap"
> You call that calm, thoughtful and non-agressive?

No.  I wasn't referring to that.  You're muddling the different posts again.

I assume you've finished the marking, prepared your history and eaten the 
celery already.

-- 
Martin

Martin warbled...
> 
> "Bev"  wrote in message 
> news:MPG.216ccf854717a17998a0bc@news.fireflyuk.net...
> > Martin warbled...
> >>
> >> "Bev"  wrote in message
> >> news:MPG.216c9788f50a140f98a0b0@news.fireflyuk.net...
> >> > Martin warbled...

> >> Yes.  It was a balanced account of how a representative (IMHO) head 
> >> spends
> >> some of his/her time in a representative week;
> >
> > No it wasn't.
> 
> Yes it was... :-)
> Which thing are you saying it wasn't?

Are you finding it that difficult to follow? You might need a better 
Newsreader.

> >> it did not deliberately
> >> distort the statements in a previous post;
> >
> > Neither did mine.
> 
> I think it did.  See my other response.

I've answered that explaining why it didn't.
I've also clarified my position on the workload of heads, teachers and 
support staff for those who need it spelled out.

> >> and it was a calm, thoughtful
> >> and non-aggressive explanation.  Your reply to the same post doesn't 
> >> begin
> >> to come close - I'll respond separately to help you understand.
> >
> > My reply was in response to this:
> > "What a load of crap"
> > You call that calm, thoughtful and non-agressive?
> 
> No.  I wasn't referring to that.  You're muddling the different posts again.

Not at all. *I'm* explaining why *I* was responding in a particular way.
You might *think* it's in response to a different post, but you have to 
take my word for this really, as *I'm* the one who made the response..

> I assume you've finished the marking, prepared your history and eaten the 
> celery already.

Oh dear, so many assumptions. Would you care to explain where you see 
reference to *me* having to do any of those things?

-- 
Bev.

"Bev"  wrote in message 
news:MPG.216cd0d857ee8e0a98a0bd@news.fireflyuk.net...
> Martin warbled...
>>
>> "Bev"  wrote in message

> Oh good... derision was part of the intention, just as Jo derided the
> OP.

"How helpful"

> Yaawwwwwnnnn. Fairy-tale land.

"How helpful"

> My question is, "Is she a teaching head?" ie. a head who has a regular
> responsibility for teaching a full class part time for a certain number
> of ays/sessions each week.

What will you deduce from the answer - that if it's not a regular, 
timetabled commitment, then she's out of touch with the chalk-face?

> Would you care to place that back in context or would it weaken your
> argument too much?

The context was that the things you admired / envied were attributable to 
luck.

> I am suggesting that parents turn up voluntarily and no matter how
> interesting or sociable the PTA metings might be, those volunteers also
> have other lives and commitments.

A good thing too.

> "most HT work longer hours and stay at school for
> longer than most of their staff -- Fact."
>
> Not always - and stating that it is a fact does not make it so.

In what was does your "not always" conflict with Jo's "most"?

> "Head teachers do not have defined hours -- most have to work 365 day
> --- IF the LEA requires them to.."
>
> Have you ever known this requirement to be carried out?

Have you ever known an LEA to ask?

Do make up your mind.  One moment you're claiming that HTs are a lazy load 
of skivers, the next you suggest they have poor work/life balance because 
they work such long hours.

-- 
Martin

"Bev"  wrote in message 
news:MPG.216cd54dbeeb606898a0c4@news.fireflyuk.net...

>> >> Yes.  It was a balanced account of how a representative (IMHO) head
>> >> spends
>> >> some of his/her time in a representative week;
>> >
>> > No it wasn't.
>>
>> Yes it was... :-)
>> Which thing are you saying it wasn't?
>
> Are you finding it that difficult to follow? You might need a better
> Newsreader.

You're really getting stuck now, aren't you.  I pity your pupils if your 
only response to a perfectly clear question is to duck the issue and turn 
abusive.

> I've also clarified my position on the workload of heads, teachers and
> support staff for those who need it spelled out.

You said it was hard work.  What's that got to do with workload?

> You might *think* it's in response to a different post, but you have to
> take my word for this really, as *I'm* the one who made the response..

Undeniable.


>> I assume you've finished the marking, prepared your history and eaten the
>> celery already.
>
> Oh dear, so many assumptions. Would you care to explain where you see
> reference to *me* having to do any of those things?

You're really losing the plot, aren't you.  I dread to think that the celery 
is sitting there uneaten.

-- 
Martin

Martin warbled...
> 
> "Bev"  wrote in message 
> news:MPG.216cd0d857ee8e0a98a0bd@news.fireflyuk.net...

> > My question is, "Is she a teaching head?" ie. a head who has a regular
> > responsibility for teaching a full class part time for a certain number
> > of ays/sessions each week.
> 
> What will you deduce from the answer - that if it's not a regular, 
> timetabled commitment, then she's out of touch with the chalk-face?

No, but that it's possible she might have forgotten the everyday 
stresses and strains placed on a class teacher. I know lots of heads and 
advisors who appear to have done just that.

> > Would you care to place that back in context or would it weaken your
> > argument too much?
> 
> The context was that the things you admired / envied were attributable to 
> luck.

Ah, now you see, instead of placing it back in context, you have removed 
it altogether and further twisted the meaning.

> > I am suggesting that parents turn up voluntarily and no matter how
> > interesting or sociable the PTA metings might be, those volunteers also
> > have other lives and commitments.
> 
> A good thing too.
> 
> > "most HT work longer hours and stay at school for
> > longer than most of their staff -- Fact."
> >
> > Not always - and stating that it is a fact does not make it so.
> 
> In what was does your "not always" conflict with Jo's "most"?

I didn't think it did, but you seem to want to make an issue out of it.
I was, however, indicating that the HT in the OPs post might have been 
the sort who didn't.
As a matter of fact, I believe that 'staying in school longer' is a mott 
point anyway. Schoolwork doesn't have to be done at school. I know some 
heads who turn up at 8.45 and leave at 4.15pm. I once worked for one. 
However, despite this, she was one of the hardest working heads you 
could imagine.
I have the greatest of admiration for some teachers (of any description) 
with young families, who bowl up in the nick of time, having dropped 
their offspring off at the childminders and who race off again as soon 
as possible at the end of the school day. This is because I know that 
they spend time after sorting out Junior burning the midnight oil to 
keep up with the schoolwork.

> > "Head teachers do not have defined hours -- most have to work 365 day
> > --- IF the LEA requires them to.."
> >
> > Have you ever known this requirement to be carried out?
> 
> Have you ever known an LEA to ask?

That'll be a 'no, never' then.

> Do make up your mind.  One moment you're claiming that HTs are a lazy load 
> of skivers, 

Actually you will find that I suggested that *some* Headteachers work 
less hours than Jo seems to think they do.

> the next you suggest they have poor work/life balance because 
> they work such long hours.

Actually you will find that I suggested that *Jo* might not have a good 
work/life balance if she is being truthful about the amount of evening 
meetings she attends (a fact about which she has already changed her 
mind, remember... from 'several a week' to 'once a week')
-- 
Bev.

Martin warbled...

<nonsense snipped, leaving just the last bit of nonsense>
> You're really losing the plot, aren't you.  I dread to think that the celery 
> is sitting there uneaten.
> 
*Someone* is losing the plot, most certainly.

-- 
Bev.

Bev replied:
> I know some
>heads who turn up at 8.45 and leave at 4.15pm. I once worked for one.
>However, despite this, she was one of the hardest working heads you
>could imagine.

Careful - Martin thinks that "Work is only hard if you're not very good
at it."
-- 
greebs

greebo warbled...
> Bev replied:
> > I know some
> >heads who turn up at 8.45 and leave at 4.15pm. I once worked for one.
> >However, despite this, she was one of the hardest working heads you
> >could imagine.
> 
> Careful - Martin thinks that "Work is only hard if you're not very good
> at it."
> 
Ah yes. Thanks for the reminder.
Martin has shown his hand with a post which did not make one valid point 
with which I could debate. It seems he has run out of the steam for a 
proper discussion.
-- 
Bev.

In article , Bev
 wrote:
>  Martin warbled...

> <nonsense snipped, leaving just the last bit of nonsense>
> > You're really losing the plot, aren't you.  I dread to think that
> > the celery is sitting there uneaten.
> > 
> *Someone* is losing the plot, most certainly.


I can't quite see what the reference to celery is all about ... Have
I missed something?

-- 
Gertie. 

Award-winning bog cleaner, Latin scholar and beer festival organiser.
Veni, vidi, Vici iiabui et cervaca, or summat like that 
reply-to address works but not to html mail, hotmail or aol addresses


A fool and his money are soon partying.

In article , Bev
 wrote:
>  greebo warbled...
> > Bev replied:
> > > I know some heads who turn up at 8.45 and leave at 4.15pm. I
> > >once worked for one. However, despite this, she was one of the
> > >hardest working heads you could imagine.
> > 
> > Careful - Martin thinks that "Work is only hard if you're not
> > very good at it."
> > 
> Ah yes. Thanks for the reminder. Martin has shown his hand with a
> post which did not make one valid point with which I could debate.
> It seems he has run out of the steam for a proper discussion.


But *I* think you have both done very well with the snipping and
interleaving!

Congratulations.

Exemplary work! 

House point each, I think!!

-- 
Gertie. 

Award-winning bog cleaner, Latin scholar and beer festival organiser.
Veni, vidi, Vici iiabui et cervaca, or summat like that 
reply-to address works but not to html mail, hotmail or aol addresses


The sooner you fall behind, the more time you'll have to catch up.

In article , gertie@grumbles
 wrote:
> In article , Bev
>  wrote:
> >  Martin warbled...

> > <nonsense snipped, leaving just the last bit of nonsense>
> > > You're really losing the plot, aren't you.  I dread to think
> > > that the celery is sitting there uneaten.

.......^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^...................




> I can't quite see what the reference to celery is all about ... Have
> I missed something?


Ignore - found it.

Think the above comment is rather stupid and unnecessary.

-- 
Gertie. 

Award-winning bog cleaner, Latin scholar and beer festival organiser.
Veni, vidi, Vici iiabui et cervaca, or summat like that 
reply-to address works but not to html mail, hotmail or aol addresses


The man who fell into an upholstery machine is fully recovered.

gertie@grumbles warbled...
> In article , Bev
>  wrote:
> >  Martin warbled...
> 
> > <nonsense snipped, leaving just the last bit of nonsense>
> > > You're really losing the plot, aren't you.  I dread to think that
> > > the celery is sitting there uneaten.
> > > 
> > *Someone* is losing the plot, most certainly.
> 
> 
> I can't quite see what the reference to celery is all about ... Have
> I missed something?
> 
Hi gertie,
Jo made reference (I presumed with humour intended) about my quote line, 
which announces that everyone 'warbles' when I 'reply to' that she 
wasn't warbling she was singing.
I then made reference (also intended as humour, though I will admit that 
as I didn't use smilies it could easily be misinterpreted) to the fact 
that she might be singing because...
"because you don't have 33 biographies and 32 sets of maths 
books to mark by tomorrow, before you start preparing the resources for 
the History lesson and then realise you've forgotten the celery for the 
science lesson and have to make a quick dash to Tesco's!"

It seems that in the absence of a clear, logical argument, Martin's 
posts have deteriorated to a deliberate misinterpretation of words. He 
also seems to mistakenly think that I attributed that particular list of 
jobs to myself to have to do last night. 

If this is all he can offer then I shall be ignoring any similar future 
attempts by him to stir things up.

In case you also missed it, in the same post, I clarified that in my 
opinion:
"There are great hard-working heads.
Some aren't.
There are great hard-working teachers.
Some aren't.
There are great hard-working support staff.
I suppose there probably are some that aren't, but I haven't actually 
come across any of that particular breed that don't habitually put in 
more than they get paid for doing."

-- 
Bev.

gertie@grumbles warbled...
> Ignore - found it.
> 
Sorry... I'd already answered as this was coming through.  :(
-- 
Bev.

I suppose I had better explain further my first post..

> My school has a governor meeting every week - I always attend not all of 
> my staff do, they are not on all the committees - I am.

We have a meeting each week because we are currently funding the rebuilding 
of the school and we - as governors - have to find 10% of the build cost. On 
top of that we have "normal" meetings and committees.. I cannot expect my 
staff to attend these meetings when it is not on curricular maters.

> We also have PTA meetings most weeks.

The PTA are also very active in assisting the Fundraising for the school 
building and as such are holding many events to raise funds..
at the same time providing assistance in after school and before school 
activities - (breakfast club from 7.30am and after school till 6 pm) - which 
I don't feel able to ask the teaching staff  to do as it is outside their 
designated hours.

> Last week - in the course of my job I travelled 984 miles to visit other 
> schools -- on three occasions did not get home till after 9.30 pm, explain 
> that to my partner..

As part of a cluster of schools -- in a very long county -- it is not 
unusual to travel these distances -- or for meetings to be arranged to start 
after the normal school day - when we have finished our "in school" work.. 
also it is not unusual to get home at 9.30... and I as most others DO have a 
family who hope to see me some times and not just like a vampire passing in 
the dark...


> I do ensure that if any member of staff uses transport on duty they are 
> reimbursed for doing so.. The only problems with that were when I had two 
> new members of staff who had never been used to getting reimbursed -- they 
> tried to take the system for a ride.. the other members of staff soon 
> sorted them out after I said no more..

Why shouldn't they get paid??   Is  there an issue with this??
My issue was that some unscrupulous members tried to cheat and book more 
that they had done.. But it is self monitoring in as much as the staff know 
they have my commitment and the other staff "explain" . I don't book 
travelling expenses (unless it is a train ticket) because the money comes 
from school funds.. and we are very busy at the moment trying to raise 
school funds..


> My staff all know that they can attend emergency hospital or take sick 
> children to hospital but they always do me the courtesy of ringing to let 
> me know. It is a matter of arranging cover more than anything else, and 
> they can always self certify sick ..

I see no issue with this point at all .. the staff contented and are more 
committed - when they are treated as people with problems the same as any 
one else. And they do have a commitment to the school as well as the school 
being committed to them.. It is called partnership and respect.


> During the floods --- the headteachers were expected to be at the 
> schools --   even though the staff were on holiday.

The floods did happen during and over holiday periods.... The teachers and 
support staff were asked if they would return to school -- which most of 
them did - but some had family holiday commitments. (which was 
understandable).. The Head was told by the LEA to be at the school .. even 
though we had holiday commitments.. and I would not have expected to do 
anything else..


> I still do teach and have been teaching for 35 years -- so I do know both 
> sides --

Yes I still teach -- and prepare lessons -- and mark work -- that is what I 
joined up to do....


> Teachers and all the support staff, do a wonderful job and I treasure all 
> the staff -- but don't knock the head teacher because you don't see what 
> they are doing.. they are probably fighting your corner at County hall !!

I don't knock my staff -- we all work together as a team doing our differing 
jobs - some have to lead and some have to be led but we are all equal.


> And I am not Warbling --
> I am singing..

Because I do like my job -- and enjoy working but do get disconcerted when 
some try to belittle every others work or effort -- a smile cost nothing and 
saying well done even less..

-- 
(All Incoming and Outgoing Emails Scanned With Norton Antivirus 2007)

jo warbled...
> I suppose I had better explain further my first post..

Thank you for the further explanation Jo. There appear to be 
misunderstandings around some issues (For example, I have not suggested 
staff should not get paid travel expenses. I have said that not all 
staff *do* get travel expenses.) I do not wish to drag any discussions 
round and round in circles, so although I still find things like an 
average of almost 1000 miles per *week* travelling expenses totally 
unbelievable, I have said my piece on the matter, and others can make up 
their own minds.

Please just consider, next time you read about the kind of issues raised 
by the first two posters in this thread, that not *all* heads are as 
enlightened about staff contentment and commitment, and some are sadly 
no longer committed to their own job as retirement beckons.
There are still some schools left in this country where problems such as 
those raised *do* exist, and for a teacher struggling under that regime, 
to be told that what they are saying is 'crap' could be a devastating 
blow.

This is really the whole point I wanted to make.

-- 
Bev.

Thanks Bev..
I wont go on -- as it is not worth it -- 

but just to  say ( in my post) that LAST week I travelled 984 miles -- not 
an average --- the average is more like 200.. even that is enough though.. 
and no I do not claim mileage..  although all the "advisors" from County 
Hall all do when they come on a visit to my school - and overtime if it is 
an evening meeting..

As yes I have been known to pop in to Waitrose during the school day --  
usually to get a cup of tea -- after a non stop session and on the way back 
to, or going from school..  And YES I would be surprised to see a member of 
staff their during school hours who had possibly rang in sick or had a child 
sick.. I would ask how they were... would I be wrong not to do so?

Retirement for me is unfortunately been increased by HM Gov to extend till 
63 years of age -- so although wishing - it does not beckon -- many teachers 
in my age range who were recruited in the 1970's are in the same position..

Jo

BTW -- I have also taught all day as I have a teacher off visiting her sick 
sister in hospital... (no cash for cover) and a governors meeting this 
evening -- Heath and Safety -- walk around and inspect the school --  
starting at 7.30... Finish ??? get home ??? no lunch -- busy doing office 
work..

-- 
(All Incoming and Outgoing Emails Scanned With Norton Antivirus 2007)

"jo"  wrote in message 
news:r4QMi.19700$HW.1592@newsfe3-gui.ntli.net...

> and no I do not claim mileage..  although all the "advisors" from County 
> Hall all do when they come on a visit to my school - and overtime if it is 
> an evening meeting..

Tee hee... any advisors on this thread care to comment?


> As yes I have been known to pop in to Waitrose during the school day --  
> usually to get a cup of tea -- after a non stop session and on the way 
> back to, or going from school.

Nothing wrong with that.  Though I'm not so convinced about the people who 
get haircuts in school time on the ground that it grows in school time...

> Retirement for me is unfortunately been increased by HM Gov to extend till 
> 63 years of age -- so although wishing - it does not beckon -- many 
> teachers in my age range who were recruited in the 1970's are in the same 
> position..

Two thoughts...  First, deduct your pension entitlement at age 60 from your 
salary, and then ponder on whether it's worth working for the difference. 
Second, when it comes to it, enjoy all three of your retirement days - your 
last day of term, your last pay cheque, and everyone else's first day of the 
next term...!!


-- 
Martin

jo warbled...
> Thanks Bev..
> I wont go on -- as it is not worth it -- 
> 
> but just to  say ( in my post) that LAST week I travelled 984 miles -- not 
> an average --- the average is more like 200.. even that is enough though.. 
> and no I do not claim mileage..  although all the "advisors" from County 
> Hall all do when they come on a visit to my school - and overtime if it is 
> an evening meeting..

That's clearer thank you.
Yes. Having been on both sides of the fence, I really appreciate that it 
is an unfair system whereby advisors can claim travel expenses with a 
clear conscience but school staff, knowing it comes directly from their 
very limited budget, don't do so. (we can't claim overtime though. I 
think our  Director would have a fit!)

> As yes I have been known to pop in to Waitrose during the school day --  
> usually to get a cup of tea -- after a non stop session and on the way back 
> to, or going from school..  

I know that feeling...

> And YES I would be surprised to see a member of 
> staff their during school hours who had possibly rang in sick or had a child 
> sick.. I would ask how they were... would I be wrong not to do so?

Not at all. I never said it was. I think there was a lot more to the 
original posts than that though.
 
Sorry you've had a tough day. Put your feet up and get your partner to 
pamper you. Why else would you keep him?  ;)
-- 
Bev.

Bev burbled:

>There are still some schools left in this country where problems such as 
>those raised *do* exist, and for a teacher struggling under that regime, 
>to be told that what they are saying is 'crap' could be a devastating 
>blow.

Luckily I got out and now work for a normal HT and my pay has also
rocketed since.

>This is really the whole point I wanted to make.

And very believable too.
-- 
Sheel          (Change me to me2 to email.)

I'm a little teapot short and stout, here's my handle...
and here's my other handle... darn I'm a sugar bowl.

Ruth wanted to add...
> I have the greatest of admiration for some teachers (of any description)
> with young families, who bowl up in the nick of time, having dropped
> their offspring off at the childminders and who race off again as soon
> as possible at the end of the school day. This is because I know that
> they spend time after sorting out Junior burning the midnight oil to
> keep up with the schoolwork.

Thankyou Bev for recognising that! I really appreciate you
understanding how tough it can be with kids vs the job! I am a part-
time NQT teaching years 8,9,10 & 11 with 3 small kids and a new hubby.
Even doing 0.5 I put in full time hours because I need to keep up I
lack experience. The heads life described by Martin sounds a doddle,
he should try walking in my shoes. (Bet he comes home to kids in bed,
cooked meal, washing done etc ;)  - not really, sorry Martin!).

In article , Bev
 wrote:
> "There are great hard-working heads. 
> Some aren't. 
> There are great hard-working teachers. 
> Some aren't. 
> There are great hard-working
> support staff. 
> I suppose there probably are some that aren't, but I
> haven't actually come across any of that particular breed that
> don't habitually put in more than they get paid for doing."

I agree with all that....

-- 
Gertie. 

Award-winning bog cleaner, Latin scholar and beer festival organiser.
Veni, vidi, Vici iiabui et cervaca, or summat like that 
reply-to address works but not to html mail, hotmail or aol addresses


The severity of the itch is proportional to the reach.

In article <1RQMi.20554$aN2.14324@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net>, Martin
 wrote:
> Nothing wrong with that.  Though I'm not so convinced about the
> people who get haircuts in school time on the ground that it grows
> in school time...

as long as staff are doing their job does it matter what they get
done in school time and what they get done in their own time?

-- 
Gertie. 

Award-winning bog cleaner, Latin scholar and beer festival organiser.
Veni, vidi, Vici iiabui et cervaca, or summat like that 
reply-to address works but not to html mail, hotmail or aol addresses


A bicycle can't stand alone because it's two tyred.

"Woman on the edge"  wrote in message
news:1191448645.155711.281880@k79g2000hse.googlegroups.com...
> Ruth wanted to add...
>> I have the greatest of admiration for some teachers (of any description)
>> with young families, who bowl up in the nick of time, having dropped
>> their offspring off at the childminders and who race off again as soon
>> as possible at the end of the school day. This is because I know that
>> they spend time after sorting out Junior burning the midnight oil to
>> keep up with the schoolwork.
>
> Thankyou Bev for recognising that! I really appreciate you
> understanding how tough it can be with kids vs the job! I am a part-
> time NQT teaching years 8,9,10 & 11 with 3 small kids and a new hubby.
> Even doing 0.5 I put in full time hours because I need to keep up I
> lack experience. The heads life described by Martin sounds a doddle

What?  I was arguing that a head's life is (mostly, and for most heads) not
the doddle which some disgruntled teachers sometimes suggest.  As Jo said
"... don't knock the head teacher because you don't see what they are
doing.. they are probably fighting your corner at County hall !! ".
Having lived with an HT for nearly twenty years, I've been able to observe
from fairly close quarters (and before I'm flamed, I know that's not the
same as being an HT).

If I've posted something to the contrary, please let me know - it might have
been a typo (or, of course, perhaps I've changed my mind since yesterday
-)  )

> he should try walking in my shoes.

I don't think I've criticised teachers per se anywhere in this thread - and
never regard teaching as anything but a tough, demanding (but ultimately
rewarding, if done well) job.   My quarrel is with people who think everyone
else's job is easier than their own, that they are the hardest "done by",
and struggle to distinguish between hard work and long hours.

> (Bet he comes home to kids in bed,
> cooked meal, washing done etc ;)

Not these days - but I do recall that coming home to kids _asleep_ in bed
was far worse than getting home while they were still bounding around the
house.

>  - not really, sorry Martin!.

No prob - I prefer it when people don't feel the need to add a smiley,
though I guess my reference to Bev doing her homework and eating her celery
(remembering it was actually for class demo) should have had several in
capitals and bold...!

-- 
Martin

"gertie@grumbles"  wrote in message 
news:4f2c373f53gertie@grumbles.me.uk...
> In article <1RQMi.20554$aN2.14324@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net>, Martin
>  wrote:
>> Nothing wrong with that.  Though I'm not so convinced about the
>> people who get haircuts in school time on the ground that it grows
>> in school time...
>
> as long as staff are doing their job does it matter what they get
> done in school time and what they get done in their own time?
>
> -- 
> Gertie.

Absolutely not.  The snag, though, as evidenced in previous posts, is that 
being spotted off-site in "working hours" can lead to unjustified 
assumptions.

-- 
Martin

"gertie@grumbles"  wrote in message 
news:4f2c36e83agertie@grumbles.me.uk...
> In article , Bev
>  wrote:
>> "There are great hard-working heads.
>> Some aren't.
>> There are great hard-working teachers.
>> Some aren't.
>> There are great hard-working
>> support staff.
>> I suppose there probably are some that aren't, but I
>> haven't actually come across any of that particular breed that
>> don't habitually put in more than they get paid for doing."
>
> I agree with all that....
>
> -- 
> Gertie.

So would I - if only the "hard-working" thing was removed.  What does it 
mean?  Trying?  Long hours?  Going the extra mile?  Skipping tea break?  And 
does "hard working" mean you automatically "great"?


-- 
Martin

Martin warbled...
> I was arguing that a head's life is (mostly, and for most heads) not
> the doddle which some disgruntled teachers sometimes suggest. 
> 
Whilst I was arguing that a teacher's life is (mostly, and for most 
teachers) also stressful and such stress can be compounded by a less-
than-understanding Headteacher, though some suggest that such a thing 
doesn't exist. 

You supported the latter view, then were unable to sustain a viable 
argument.
-- 
Bev.

"Bev"  wrote in message 
news:MPG.216ff33fafe488a398a0e0@news.fireflyuk.net...
> Martin warbled...
>> I was arguing that a head's life is (mostly, and for most heads) not
>> the doddle which some disgruntled teachers sometimes suggest.
>>
> Whilst I was arguing that a teacher's life is (mostly, and for most
> teachers) also stressful and such stress can be compounded by a less-
> than-understanding Headteacher, though some suggest that such a thing
> doesn't exist.
>
> You supported the latter view

Really.  Where did I say / support that?


-- 
Martin

Martin warbled...
> 
> "Bev"  wrote in message 
> news:MPG.216ff33fafe488a398a0e0@news.fireflyuk.net...
> > Martin warbled...
> >> I was arguing that a head's life is (mostly, and for most heads) not
> >> the doddle which some disgruntled teachers sometimes suggest.
> >>
> > Whilst I was arguing that a teacher's life is (mostly, and for most
> > teachers) also stressful and such stress can be compounded by a less-
> > than-understanding Headteacher, though some suggest that such a thing
> > doesn't exist.
> >
> > You supported the latter view
> 
> Really.  Where did I say / support that?
> 
It started with, "Brilliant post (and riposte) - well done...!!!" and I 
suppose it ended when, failing any logical comment, you had to resort to 
arguing the semantics of phrases such as 'hard-working'.

-- 
Bev.

are you two Married???

-- 
(All Incoming and Outgoing Emails Scanned With Norton Antivirus 2007)

"Bev"  wrote in message 
news:MPG.2170935c46d5fa6d98a0e1@news.fireflyuk.net...
> Martin warbled...
>>
>> "Bev"  wrote in message
>> news:MPG.216ff33fafe488a398a0e0@news.fireflyuk.net...
>> > Martin warbled...
>> >> I was arguing that a head's life is (mostly, and for most heads) not
>> >> the doddle which some disgruntled teachers sometimes suggest.
>> >>
>> > Whilst I was arguing that a teacher's life is (mostly, and for most
>> > teachers) also stressful and such stress can be compounded by a less-
>> > than-understanding Headteacher, though some suggest that such a thing
>> > doesn't exist.
>> >
>> > You supported the latter view
>>
>> Really.  Where did I say / support that?
>>
> It started with, "Brilliant post (and riposte) - well done...!!!" and I
> suppose it ended when, failing any logical comment, you had to resort to
> arguing the semantics of phrases such as 'hard-working'.
>
> -- 
> Bev.

jo warbled...
> are you two Married???
> 
> 
ROFLLLLLLL
-- 
Bev.
(unmarried - it's far too much like hard work for someone as hardworking 
as me!)