Nataraj M Basappa  writes:

>Hi All,

>  It might be dumb question for you folks who have been using SPARC
>for all along, I want to
>try SPARC hardware it will be my first venture into SPARC, i have been
>using Debian for quite sometime on x86 and plan to do the same on
>SPARC. I have done some groundwork on OpenBoot PROM (Program) and also
>some affordable hardware to get me started.

>My question -
>  1. Is Ultra 60 (2x450+2GB) a better choice or should i look for bit
>more (since i plan to do some web development work on this) and also

Ultra 60's are now becoming very cheap. In addition, they're robust, and
quite expandable in terms of RAM, PCI, etc. With general TLC (regularly
cleaning out dust, etc. and making sure the power supply always has good
airflow), the machine will be useful for a very long time.

>  2. Some layman comparision between this system and x86 system would
>be better (i used all my googling skills but in vain, but always leads
>me into spec.org)

To be honest, there really isn't any concrete way to compare an arbitrary
Sparc-based system with an arbitrary x86-based system. The CPU architectures
are completely different, the system board circuitry is different, and in
general the entire systems are nothing at all like PC's. Some are close
(such as the design of the Ultra 5 and 10 systems), but still very
different.

>  3. Are all components of the system supported under Gnu/Linux
>(specially display)

Most of the current Linux flavours that have good Sparc support (Debian,
Gentoo, etc.) will work just fine with a wide range of Sun peripherals
including framebuffer/display cards. Even the open-source BSD OS's like
NetBSD, etc. have plenty of support for Sun cards.

>  4. I would be buying with a CR-ROM support, does this systems boot
>from CD-ROM (i am asking this coz i read somewhere that you need to
>boot of a serial port to kick start OS installation)

Yes the Ultra-60 system board firmware supports booting from a CD-ROM drive.

Regards,

Craig.
-- 
Post by Craig Dewick (tm). Web @ "http://lios.apana.org.au/~cdewick".
Email 2 "cdewick@lios.apana.org.au". SunShack @ "http://www.sunshack.org"
Galleries @ "http://www.sunshack.org/gallery2". Also lots of tech data, etc.
Sun Microsystems webring at "http://n.webring.com/hub?ring=sunmicrosystemsu".

On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 10:34:08 +0000, Craig Dewick wrote:


>>  2. Some layman comparision between this system and x86 system would
>>be better (i used all my googling skills but in vain, but always leads
>>me into spec.org)
> 
> To be honest, there really isn't any concrete way to compare an arbitrary
> Sparc-based system with an arbitrary x86-based system. The CPU architectures
> are completely different, the system board circuitry is different, and in
> general the entire systems are nothing at all like PC's. Some are close
> (such as the design of the Ultra 5 and 10 systems), but still very
> different.

My 2c is that if you are going to go out and spend $$$ to buy hardware,
then buy X86 system hardware rather than sun stuff. Especially if you have
some hardware skills and can buy  yumcha x86 stuff. The parts will always
be reuseable in other systems.

I've just brought home a courier van full of old sun hardware and I can
bet you, that apart from scsi stuff (hard disk, cdrom), that bugger all
will be interchangeable. <damm, just realised there wasn't a keyboard or
mouse in the whole van of stuff. bugger, yep the sun keyboard and mouse
are special and there are different models.>

>
>>  3. Are all components of the system supported under Gnu/Linux
>>(specially display)
> 
> Most of the current Linux flavours that have good Sparc support (Debian,
> Gentoo, etc.) will work just fine with a wide range of Sun peripherals
> including framebuffer/display cards. Even the open-source BSD OS's like
> NetBSD, etc. have plenty of support for Sun cards.
> 
>>  4. I would be buying with a CR-ROM support, does this systems boot
>>from CD-ROM (i am asking this coz i read somewhere that you need to boot
>>of a serial port to kick start OS installation)
> 
> Yes the Ultra-60 system board firmware supports booting from a CD-ROM
> drive.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Craig.

* Craig Dewick:

> To be honest, there really isn't any concrete way to compare an arbitrary
> Sparc-based system with an arbitrary x86-based system. The CPU architectures
> are completely different, the system board circuitry is different, and in
> general the entire systems are nothing at all like PC's. Some are close
> (such as the design of the Ultra 5 and 10 systems), but still very
> different.

Sorry but that's just nonsense. Of course there are ways to compare 
SPARC and x86, and that has been done very often already. And SPARC and 
x86 are not as different as you seem to believe, in fact, both are quite 
similar, especially the workstations. The system structure of the Ultra 
60 (two CPUs on a single bus) is similar to that of older PCs (shared 
FSB), it uses the same memory (EDORAM) but just in a different 
mechanical format, and it uses PCI as did PCs of that aera. UPA shares 
similarities with AGP, too.

So yes, both are quite similar, and of course can be compared.

Benjamin

terryc  writes:

>On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 10:34:08 +0000, Craig Dewick wrote:


>>>  2. Some layman comparision between this system and x86 system would
>>>be better (i used all my googling skills but in vain, but always leads
>>>me into spec.org)
>> 
>> To be honest, there really isn't any concrete way to compare an arbitrary
>> Sparc-based system with an arbitrary x86-based system. The CPU architectures
>> are completely different, the system board circuitry is different, and in
>> general the entire systems are nothing at all like PC's. Some are close
>> (such as the design of the Ultra 5 and 10 systems), but still very
>> different.

>My 2c is that if you are going to go out and spend $$$ to buy hardware,
>then buy X86 system hardware rather than sun stuff. Especially if you have
>some hardware skills and can buy  yumcha x86 stuff. The parts will always
>be reuseable in other systems.

>I've just brought home a courier van full of old sun hardware and I can
>bet you, that apart from scsi stuff (hard disk, cdrom), that bugger all
>will be interchangeable. <damm, just realised there wasn't a keyboard or
>mouse in the whole van of stuff. bugger, yep the sun keyboard and mouse
>are special and there are different models.>

Since when has PC stuff been interchangable? Apart from PCI cards, and IDE
disks, nothing is interchangable, so it's no different to Sun hardware, or
HP hardware, or IBM hardware, etc. etc. At least Sun hardware lasts waaaaaay
longer in terms of useful service life than PC hardware, and not
withstanding a few notable exceptions, most Sun systems are built far more
robustly than just about any normal PC or x86-based server.

>>
>>>  3. Are all components of the system supported under Gnu/Linux
>>>(specially display)
>> 
>> Most of the current Linux flavours that have good Sparc support (Debian,
>> Gentoo, etc.) will work just fine with a wide range of Sun peripherals
>> including framebuffer/display cards. Even the open-source BSD OS's like
>> NetBSD, etc. have plenty of support for Sun cards.
>> 
>>>  4. I would be buying with a CR-ROM support, does this systems boot
>>>from CD-ROM (i am asking this coz i read somewhere that you need to boot
>>>of a serial port to kick start OS installation)
>> 
>> Yes the Ultra-60 system board firmware supports booting from a CD-ROM
>> drive.
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> Craig.


-- 
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"DoN. Nichols"  writes:

>On 2008-07-03, David Wilson  wrote:
>> On Jun 30, 2:53 pm, "DoN. Nichols"  wrote:
>>> Sun-3 machines up through some UltraSPARC systems (including the
>>> Ultra-5, Ultra-10 and Ultra-60, but not including the Sun Blade 1000 and
>>> 2000) use Sun keyboards with 5-pin mini DIN connectors, and the mouse
>>> plugs into the keyboard and is routed to its own serial interface inside
>>> the box.
>>
>> I just took a look at an Ultra 5 and counted 8 pinholes on the
>> keyboard/mouse socket making it a mini-DIN-8.
>> See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mini-DIN_connector for diagrams of
>> mini-DIN-3 through mini-DIN-9 plugs.

>	You're right.  I just checked the connector on the end of one of
>the keyboard cables.  The mouse (which plugs into a connector on the
>keyboard) is a subset of that -- three pins used, IIRC, but the easily
>accessible mice are currently USB ones, and it is past 1:00 AM, so I'm
>not going to dig one out to verify that.

>	But a PC (PS/2) Keyboard connector has a square molded key in
>the middle, and will not fit in the same socket, and will not work the
>same.

It's also only got 6 pins, whereas Sun's *combined* mini-DIN keyboard and
mouse serial port interface uses 8. I have yet to find any PC which uses a
single connector for the keyboard and mouse interface - as far as I know
with the exception of some very esoteric embedded PC systems, every PC
requires two connectors for keyboard and mouse. Even Sun has gone that way
now using USB for input devices. I don't think any of the current systems
have the original Z8530-based serial port interfaces for keyboard and mouse
anymore.

>	Enjoy,
>		DoN.

>-- 
> Email:      | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
>	(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
>           --- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---
-- 
We are Species 8472. Fluidic space is our domain. Sun Hardware and related 
images located at http://www.sunshack.org/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=1684 
http://lios.apana.org.au/~species.8472 Classic Saab and related images at
http://www.classicsaab.net/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=6293 - 'Axis of Evil'!

On Mon, 07 Jul 2008 10:28:55 +0000, Species 8472 wrote:

> terryc  writes:
> 
>>On Sat, 28 Jun 2008 10:34:08 +0000, Craig Dewick wrote:
> 
> 
>>>>  2. Some layman comparision between this system and x86 system would
>>>>be better (i used all my googling skills but in vain, but always leads
>>>>me into spec.org)
>>> 
>>> To be honest, there really isn't any concrete way to compare an arbitrary
>>> Sparc-based system with an arbitrary x86-based system. The CPU architectures
>>> are completely different, the system board circuitry is different, and in
>>> general the entire systems are nothing at all like PC's. Some are close
>>> (such as the design of the Ultra 5 and 10 systems), but still very
>>> different.
> 
>>My 2c is that if you are going to go out and spend $$$ to buy hardware,
>>then buy X86 system hardware rather than sun stuff. Especially if you have
>>some hardware skills and can buy  yumcha x86 stuff. The parts will always
>>be reuseable in other systems.
> 
>>I've just brought home a courier van full of old sun hardware and I can
>>bet you, that apart from scsi stuff (hard disk, cdrom), that bugger all
>>will be interchangeable. <damm, just realised there wasn't a keyboard or
>>mouse in the whole van of stuff. bugger, yep the sun keyboard and mouse
>>are special and there are different models.>
> 
> Since when has PC stuff been interchangable? Apart from PCI cards, and IDE
> disks, nothing is interchangable, so it's no different to Sun hardware, or
> HP hardware, or IBM hardware, etc. etc. 

Finally, some one who has a bit of a clue. Yes, Brand name stuff can
have interchangeability problems, which is why I said yumcha.

> At least Sun hardware lasts waaaaaay longer in terms of useful 
> service life than PC hardware, 

Well, useful? 
I have a collection og Sparcstation 2 & 5. what are they good for?

I must admit that the yumcha can be dody. MSI mobo only last about 3
years and the never ending "guess sho is making the dodgy ide hard disks
this year.

> withstanding a few notable exceptions, most Sun systems are built far
> more robustly than just about any normal PC or x86-based server.

Yep.


>>> Yes the Ultra-60 system board firmware supports booting from a CD-ROM
>>> drive.

BTW, I have one of these to play around with as well, so I have a foot in
both worlds.

Actually, the big PC world problem is buying old RAM chips. it doesn't
take much before you start to compare the cost of just buying another
new system. OTOH, I've never even considered chasing sun RAM sticks.


>>> Regards,
>>> 
>>> Craig.

terryc wrote:

> 
> Finally, some one who has a bit of a clue. Yes, Brand name stuff can
> have interchangeability problems, which is why I said yumcha.
> 

Yumcha?  As in Cantonese Tea?  Or is it some acronym?



>> At least Sun hardware lasts waaaaaay longer in terms of useful 
>> service life than PC hardware, 
> 
> Well, useful? 
> I have a collection og Sparcstation 2 & 5. what are they good for?
> 

The 5 could make a decent backup dns server (or a primary DNS server for 
a low volume LAN).  The 2 is really old/slow though; I'm not sure the 
previous poster was referring to systems 18 years old.




> Actually, the big PC world problem is buying old RAM chips. it doesn't
> take much before you start to compare the cost of just buying another
> new system. OTOH, I've never even considered chasing sun RAM sticks.
>


Some sun machines use proprietary RAM (like the U60 and SB2000)  while 
others use more common types (like the v210 and SB100/150)



> 
>>>> Regards,
>>>>
>>>> Craig.
> 




-CN

* Species 8472:
> At least Sun hardware lasts waaaaaay
> longer in terms of useful service life than PC hardware,

Really? So what can you do with say a Sun Blade 1000 better than with a 
Dual XEON workstation of the same aera and probably much better 
performance? Or a Blade 150 compared to a standard PC of the same aera?

Of course there are still lots of old Sun machines in the wild doing 
their job for several years (running the same old software), but that is 
valid for basically every other platform as well.

> and not
> withstanding a few notable exceptions, most Sun systems are built far more
> robustly than just about any normal PC or x86-based server.

You haven't seen much PC hardware, right? I mean besides the 08/15 
standard crap that's sold in a PC store near you.

I can assure you that there are _lots_ of PCs and x86 servers that are 
made of the same or even better hardware quality than Sun gear, running 
rock solid for years. For example, the company I worked for until not 
too long ago had an old IBM PS/2 Server 95XP running WindowsNT 3.51 
Server without downtime or reboot after application of the last service 
pack (which was around 1998?). IBM made very reliable PCs, not only the 
PS/2 series but also their Netfinity servers and IntelliStation PC 
workstations. HP had their Vectra series PCs, the Kayak PC workstations 
and their Netfinity PC servers, all of which were highly reliable. 
Compaqs ProLiant servers are also well known for their endurance, which 
is why HP continued the ProLiant series after taking over Compaq. All of 
these x86 servers and PCs were rocksolid, and most of them are probably 
still working today (at least the ones that haven't been recycled).

Benjamin

Benjamin Gawert wrote:

<snip>
> 
> I can assure you that there are _lots_ of PCs and x86 servers that are 
> made of the same or even better hardware quality than Sun gear, running 
> rock solid for years. For example, the company I worked for until not 
> too long ago had an old IBM PS/2 Server 95XP running WindowsNT 3.51 
> Server without downtime or reboot after application of the last service 
> pack (which was around 1998?). IBM made very reliable PCs, not only the 
> PS/2 series but also their Netfinity servers and IntelliStation PC 
> workstations. HP had their Vectra series PCs, the Kayak PC workstations 
> and their Netfinity PC servers, all of which were highly reliable. 
> Compaqs ProLiant servers are also well known for their endurance

<snip>

FWIW, the following machines are still running here (each since 1998):
   HP Vectra 486/66 server upgraded to AMD 133 (SVR4, continuous uptime)
   IBM PS2/95XP (OS/2 2.1 and 3 server)
   Sun IPXs (Solaris 2.6 and obsd 3.2, continuous uptime)

Recent acquisition (2005):
   Compaq Proliant 3000 (2xCPU Win2k video capture and editing node with FC
   array) -- supports a collection of specialized EISA and PCI hardware.

Michael

On Mon, 07 Jul 2008 17:45:52 -0400, Christopher Noyes wrote:

> terryc wrote:
>> 
>> Finally, some one who has a bit of a clue. Yes, Brand name stuff can
>> have interchangeability problems, which is why I said yumcha.
> 
> Yumcha?  As in Cantonese Tea?  Or is it some acronym?

Umm, I guess you guys and gals need to go to a real chinese restaurnt
where they have Yumcha. Basically, you choose what you want to eat from
little carts as they are wheeled around the restaurant.

Same as gong into a computer bits shop nd choosing a case, a motherboard,
cpu, rm, hd, etc, etc, etc.


>> Well, useful?
>> I have a collection og Sparcstation 2 & 5. what are they good for?
>> 
> The 5 could make a decent backup dns server (or a primary DNS server for
> a low volume LAN).  The 2 is really old/slow though; I'm not sure the
> previous poster was referring to systems 18 years old.

Ageist huh?  {:-).
I'm not sure that I need 5 DNS or other servers, or can aford the power
bill. This is part of the problem with old hardware, it just isn't up to
"current" demands placed on systems, especially if you do not have old
software to match the age, e.g I have a 10, but it struggles running
the CDE under Solaris 8.



>

Rich Teer  writes:
>On Tue, 8 Jul 2008, terryc wrote:

>> Umm, I guess you guys and gals need to go to a real chinese restaurnt
>> where they have Yumcha. Basically, you choose what you want to eat from
>> little carts as they are wheeled around the restaurant.

>Ahh, understanding dawns.  :-)

>On this side of the pond, I think the term used is usually "smorgasbord"
>rather than "yumcha".  I have no idea which is more correct, although
>yumcha does sound more oriental to me.

Dimsum is used more often in North America. 

While technically yumcha is the drinking of tea, and dimsum the food,
the experience itself is usually referred as dimsum here.

Rich Teer wrote:
> On Tue, 8 Jul 2008, terryc wrote:
> 
>> Umm, I guess you guys and gals need to go to a real chinese restaurnt
>> where they have Yumcha. Basically, you choose what you want to eat from
>> little carts as they are wheeled around the restaurant.
> 
> Ahh, understanding dawns.  :-)
> 
> On this side of the pond, I think the term used is usually "smorgasbord"
> rather than "yumcha".  I have no idea which is more correct, although
> yumcha does sound more oriental to me.

The only recemblance between yumcha/dimsum and a smörgåsbord is that
they both are made up of a multitude of small dishes. There are however
no similarity in taste at all.

Is _this_ OT or not? ;-)

On Tue, 08 Jul 2008 14:18:09 +0000, Rich Teer wrote:

> On Tue, 8 Jul 2008, terryc wrote:
> 
>> Umm, I guess you guys and gals need to go to a real chinese restaurnt
>> where they have Yumcha. Basically, you choose what you want to eat from
>> little carts as they are wheeled around the restaurant.
> 
> Ahh, understanding dawns.  :-)
> 
> On this side of the pond, I think the term used is usually "smorgasbord"
> rather than "yumcha".  I have no idea which is more correct, although
> yumcha does sound more oriental to me.

Smorgasbord here is more food set out on a table and you go and help
yourself. Also refered to as "buffet" in commercial world. Aka self-serve.

Over here, you need to go to better chinese restaurants at Yum-cha time.
you are given a card and sit at a table and wait for the passing waiters
to tell you what they have in their carts. when you take a basket of
whatever, they stamp your card with a stamp signifying something (probably
cost category). it all gets tallied up at the end.

We often did it as a group thing and split the bill.

What is really interesting s spotting the carts that are passing
you(westerner) bye and enquiring what they are selling. usually it is the
real chinese food like chickens feet, pigs trotter or other stuff I can
not pronounce.

But yes, you have the idea. 

I started yum-cha'ing my PCs about the time when Amstrad started fiddling
their hardware to try and force you to buy their hardware. At the time, my
local computer dealer had closed shop and I just moved up the supply
chain. Also had two CPM computers that were just unrepairable.

On 2008-07-08, terryc  wrote:
> On Mon, 07 Jul 2008 17:45:52 -0400, Christopher Noyes wrote:
>
>> terryc wrote:
>>> 
>>> Finally, some one who has a bit of a clue. Yes, Brand name stuff can
>>> have interchangeability problems, which is why I said yumcha.
>> 
>> Yumcha?  As in Cantonese Tea?  Or is it some acronym?
>
> Umm, I guess you guys and gals need to go to a real chinese restaurnt
> where they have Yumcha. Basically, you choose what you want to eat from
> little carts as they are wheeled around the restaurant.

	Oh -- no wonder I didn't recognize it.  Where I have been to
such a place (on both coasts of the USA) it has been called "DimSum"
IIRC.

	Enjoy,
		DoN.

-- 
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