I am considering a laptop for my grown up daughter, Dell Inspiron 1525
seems to manage to do all she needs for Googlemail, web browsing and a
little word processing. It's also got a 160gig harddrive so I can get
it to dual boot whatever form of Microsoft it comes with, although I
went straight from windows to Slackware 7 and never went back so I
might need help in getting something to dual boot.

All comments, alternative recommendations, and suggestions welcomed.
-- 
Nemo
"Feather-footed through the plashy fen passes the questing vole"

Nemo wrote:
> I am considering a laptop for my grown up daughter, Dell Inspiron 1525
> seems to manage to do all she needs for Googlemail, web browsing and a
> little word processing. It's also got a 160gig harddrive so I can get
> it to dual boot whatever form of Microsoft it comes with, although I
> went straight from windows to Slackware 7 and never went back so I
> might need help in getting something to dual boot.
> 
> All comments, alternative recommendations, and suggestions welcomed.

I'd suggest looking out for something that comes with XP - not vista!

Apart from that, it's likely to be quite straightforward, depending on 
the exact model of the laptop. I don't know anything about the one 
you're considering, so i can't comment on that. But Dells are generally 
very good with Linux though, i believe.

I use a Thinkpad R61 (which i can thoroughly recommend, by the way) - 
and it works fine, but when i bought it (in November last year) the 
architecture was still quite new and it was a bit tricky getting 
everything to work on it. It all works fine now though. So it may be 
worth getting a slightly older laptop, rather than a very recent model, 
if you want it to be as easy as possible - given choice and 
comparability, of course.



-- 
http://SnapAndScribble.com

On Sat, 14 Jun 2008 19:36:54 +0100, Will Kemp wrote:

> Nemo wrote:
>> I am considering a laptop for my grown up daughter, Dell Inspiron 1525
>> seems to manage to do all she needs for Googlemail, web browsing and a
>> little word processing. It's also got a 160gig harddrive so I can get
>> it to dual boot whatever form of Microsoft it comes with, although I
>> went straight from windows to Slackware 7 and never went back so I
>> might need help in getting something to dual boot.
>> 
>> All comments, alternative recommendations, and suggestions welcomed.
> 
> I'd suggest looking out for something that comes with XP - not vista!

Why? HP Pavilions come with Vista and Linux runs on them no problem.

-- 
Q: Want to lower petrol prices?
A: Easy, just boycott BP & Esso

On Sat, 14 Jun 2008 19:36:54 +0100, Will Kemp wrote:

> I use a Thinkpad R61 (which i can thoroughly recommend, by the way) - 
> and it works fine, but when i bought it (in November last year) the 
> architecture was still quite new and it was a bit tricky getting 
> everything to work on it.
>
Thanks for the recommendation - I'd been thinking if going for an
R.61. Unfortunately, due to the impact of work on free time it looks like
I'll have a new laptop before diving into the mini-ITX adventure. I hear
that R.61s now come with pre-installed Vista, but that's no problem - it
can be reformatted as easily as any blank disk.
 

-- 
martin@   | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | 
org       | Zappa fan & glider pilot

Nemo wrote:

> All comments, alternative recommendations, and suggestions welcomed.

Thank you all so much for the information, we are still looking into the
various possibilities, an Eee would have been an answer for her, but
the small screen was a little of-putting. 
-- 
Nemo
"Feather-footed through the plashy fen passes the questing vole"

Trevor Best wrote:
> On Sat, 14 Jun 2008 19:36:54 +0100, Will Kemp wrote:
> 
>> Nemo wrote:
>>> I am considering a laptop for my grown up daughter, Dell Inspiron 1525
>>> seems to manage to do all she needs for Googlemail, web browsing and a
>>> little word processing. It's also got a 160gig harddrive so I can get
>>> it to dual boot whatever form of Microsoft it comes with, although I
>>> went straight from windows to Slackware 7 and never went back so I
>>> might need help in getting something to dual boot.
>>>
>>> All comments, alternative recommendations, and suggestions welcomed.
>> I'd suggest looking out for something that comes with XP - not vista!
> 
> Why? HP Pavilions come with Vista and Linux runs on them no problem.

I think linux will run on pretty much everything nowadays. But that's 
not the issue.

The OP wants to dual boot windows and linux - and vista's a dog, so 
they'll be better off with XP if they want to use windows.

I've been using linux exclusively on my laptops for well over a decade, 
but occasionally it's useful to have windows available. These days i use 
it all the time - for testing web designs on IE6 and IE7. I don't dual 
boot, i use virtualbox - but the installation of XP i use is the one 
that came with my laptop. I'm glad it's not vista!



-- 
http://SnapAndScribble.com

Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Sat, 14 Jun 2008 19:36:54 +0100, Will Kemp wrote:
> 
>> I use a Thinkpad R61 (which i can thoroughly recommend, by the way) - 
>> and it works fine, but when i bought it (in November last year) the 
>> architecture was still quite new and it was a bit tricky getting 
>> everything to work on it.
>>
> Thanks for the recommendation - I'd been thinking if going for an
> R.61. Unfortunately, due to the impact of work on free time it looks like
> I'll have a new laptop before diving into the mini-ITX adventure. I hear
> that R.61s now come with pre-installed Vista, but that's no problem - it
> can be reformatted as easily as any blank disk.

You can still get some R61 models with XP. I'd recommend hanging on to 
the windows installation in case you ever want to use it - you've paid 
for it, after all, and it can come in handy for some things. VirtualBox 
is great for keeping the monster under control! ;-)

If you get a Thinkpad, you should find that the installation files are 
all in c:/windows (i think). It's possible (with a bit of googling) to 
make a bootable installation CD from them.



-- 
http://SnapAndScribble.com

Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Sat, 14 Jun 2008 19:36:54 +0100, Will Kemp wrote:
> 
>> I use a Thinkpad R61 (which i can thoroughly recommend, by the way) - 
>> and it works fine, but when i bought it (in November last year) the 
>> architecture was still quite new and it was a bit tricky getting 
>> everything to work on it.
>>
> Thanks for the recommendation - I'd been thinking if going for an
> R.61. Unfortunately, due to the impact of work on free time it looks like
> I'll have a new laptop before diving into the mini-ITX adventure. I hear
> that R.61s now come with pre-installed Vista, but that's no problem - it
> can be reformatted as easily as any blank disk.

By the way, i installed Fedora 8 on this laptop when i got it last 
November and i had a bit of work to do getting everything to work. But 
when i did a clean install of F9 a few weeks back, everything "just worked".


-- 
http://SnapAndScribble.com

On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 09:03:22 +0100, Will Kemp wrote:

> 
> You can still get some R61 models with XP. I'd recommend hanging on to 
> the windows installation in case you ever want to use it
>
I won't, but thanks for the suggestion. I'd prefer a no-OS machine to
avoid paying the M$ tax, so I may try claiming the non-use refund from
them.

The only 'doze software I use is old (95/98 vintage) and specialised
(TrueCAD, GPS waypoint uploads, soaring flight recorder downloads and
trace analysis). Currently my old K6/266 + W95 handles it OK, so I've been
too idle to look into moving it over to WINE.

Thanks for the F8/9 comments. I'm currently running F8 on my house server.
The R.62 will go straight onto F9 as a preliminary to shifting the server
over.


-- 
martin@   | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | 
org       | Zappa fan & glider pilot

Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 09:03:22 +0100, Will Kemp wrote:
> 
>> You can still get some R61 models with XP. I'd recommend hanging on to 
>> the windows installation in case you ever want to use it
>>
> I won't, but thanks for the suggestion. I'd prefer a no-OS machine to
> avoid paying the M$ tax, so I may try claiming the non-use refund from
> them.

Fair enough. I didn't know you could get a refund from them.

> The only 'doze software I use is old (95/98 vintage) and specialised
> (TrueCAD, GPS waypoint uploads, soaring flight recorder downloads and
> trace analysis). Currently my old K6/266 + W95 handles it OK, so I've been
> too idle to look into moving it over to WINE.

It's probably worth doing that - it's amazing what works with wine 
nowadays. Not everything, by any means, but a surprisingly high 
proportion of things i've tried lately have worked!

Having said that, the only time i've tried to use wine since i installed 
F9, the system froze! But i think there's been an update since then. I 
can't remember what i was trying to do now though... ;-)



-- 
http://SnapAndScribble.com

In article news:<48540c6f$0$80730$c5fe31e7@reader.usenet4all.se>, Nemo wrote:
> ... Dell Inspiron 1525 ... Googlemail, web browsing and a
> little word processing ... I can get it to dual boot whatever 
> form of Microsoft it comes with ...

FWIW you don't need Windows at all for Googlemail, browsing, and a little WP, and you can get a 1525 direct from Dell with Ubuntu installed.

http://www1.euro.dell.com/content/topics/topic.aspx/emea/segments/gen/client/en/ubuntu_landing?c=uk&l=en&s=dhs

Cheers,
 Daniel.

In message <J965k.81937$X6.7897@newsfe30.ams2>, Will Kemp 
 writes
>
>Having said that, the only time i've tried to use wine since i 
>installed F9, the system froze!
>
I think I noticed a kernel fix in the latest updates for this problem.
-- 
Martin Liddle, Tynemouth Computer Services, 3 Kentmere Way,
Staveley, Chesterfield, Derbyshire, S43 3TW.
Web site: <http://www.tynecomp.co.uk>.

On Sat, 14 Jun 2008 19:22:26 +0100, Nemo wrote:

> I am considering a laptop for my grown up daughter, Dell Inspiron 1525
> seems to manage to do all she needs for Googlemail, web browsing and a
> little word processing. It's also got a 160gig harddrive so I can get it
> to dual boot whatever form of Microsoft it comes with, although I went
> straight from windows to Slackware 7 and never went back so I might need
> help in getting something to dual boot.
> 
> All comments, alternative recommendations, and suggestions welcomed.


I bought one of these last week:

http://www.novatech.co.uk/novatech/specpage.html?NNB-587

It's running Ubuntu 8.04.

On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 13:23:24 +0100
Phil Stovell  wrote:

> On Sat, 14 Jun 2008 19:22:26 +0100, Nemo wrote:
> 
> > I am considering a laptop for my grown up daughter, Dell Inspiron 1525
> > seems to manage to do all she needs for Googlemail, web browsing and a
> > little word processing. It's also got a 160gig harddrive so I can get it
> > to dual boot whatever form of Microsoft it comes with, although I went
> > straight from windows to Slackware 7 and never went back so I might need
> > help in getting something to dual boot.
> > 
> > All comments, alternative recommendations, and suggestions welcomed.
> 
> 
> I bought one of these last week:
> 
> http://www.novatech.co.uk/novatech/specpage.html?NNB-587
> 
> It's running Ubuntu 8.04.

Hmmm. Novatech

They do seem to be rather making a name for themselves. We now buy all
our IT kit from them :)

-- 
Will J G

In article <48540c6f$0$80730$c5fe31e7@reader.usenet4all.se>,
Nemo   wrote:
>I am considering a laptop for my grown up daughter, Dell Inspiron 1525
>seems to manage to do all she needs for Googlemail, web browsing and a
>little word processing. It's also got a 160gig harddrive so I can get
>it to dual boot whatever form of Microsoft it comes with, although I
>went straight from windows to Slackware 7 and never went back so I
>might need help in getting something to dual boot.
>
>All comments, alternative recommendations, and suggestions welcomed.

I bought a new Acer about a year ago - it's not quite 100% Linux
compatable - I've never made the sound work, but them, I've never needed
to, and I suspect if I could be bothered to put a newer kernel on it,
it'd be OK... (it runs Debian Etch) However, a few  things for me - I
live in Devon and bought it out of a local shop in South Brent, and the
main Acer fixing place is just outside Plymouth too, and Acers come with
2 partitions (well 3), one is Win XP, (+ a small restore partition),
the other is the D drive and left unused, so makes a Linux install
trivial if you want to leave XP in-place (Which, alas I have need for)

The hinges are a bit stiff though - and a friend of mine who also has an
Acer has just broken them on his, so the lid/screen is a bit wonky now.

I don't actually "work" off the laptop - it's just an "out and about"
device (giving presentations, demos, etc. and there's some really old
Wi-Fi stuff I maintain that needs 'doze software to run) - I suspect if
I had to do a lot of work on it, I might look for something a bit more
usable, but it's OK for what I need.

Gordon

On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 11:28:41 +0100, Will Kemp wrote:

> Fair enough. I didn't know you could get a refund from them.
>
I believe its pachyderm reproduction (lots of trumpeting and
takes a long time) but it can be done.
 
> 
> It's probably worth doing that - it's amazing what works with wine
> nowadays. Not everything, by any means, but a surprisingly high
> proportion of things I've tried lately have worked!
>
More useful info thanks. All three areas need a serial port (my GPS and
logger are serial devices and I still have an HP7475A plotter). Are there
any gotchas with WINE and serial connections?


-- 
martin@   | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | 
org       | Zappa fan & glider pilot

In message <pan.2008.06.15.18.42.35.347992@see_sig_for_address.invalid>, 
Martin Gregorie <martin@see_sig_for_address.invalid> writes
>>
>More useful info thanks. All three areas need a serial port (my GPS and
>logger are serial devices and I still have an HP7475A plotter). Are there
>any gotchas with WINE and serial connections?
>
Yes there are some known issues with serial ports that prevent some 
applications working.  Unfortunately fixing the issues has just been 
deferred until after the imminent release of Wine 1.0.
-- 
Martin Liddle, Tynemouth Computer Services, 3 Kentmere Way,
Staveley, Chesterfield, Derbyshire, S43 3TW.
Web site: <http://www.tynecomp.co.uk>.

Martin Gregorie wrote:
> On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 11:28:41 +0100, Will Kemp wrote:
> 
>> Fair enough. I didn't know you could get a refund from them.
>>
> I believe its pachyderm reproduction (lots of trumpeting and
> takes a long time) but it can be done.
>  
>> It's probably worth doing that - it's amazing what works with wine
>> nowadays. Not everything, by any means, but a surprisingly high
>> proportion of things I've tried lately have worked!
>>
> More useful info thanks. All three areas need a serial port (my GPS and
> logger are serial devices and I still have an HP7475A plotter). Are there
> any gotchas with WINE and serial connections?

I don't know. It would probably vary from application to application. I 
can't remember if i've used USB with Wine or not.


-- 
http://SnapAndScribble.com

On Sun, 15 Jun 2008 20:43:50 +0100, Martin Liddle wrote:

> Yes there are some known issues with serial ports that prevent some 
> applications working.  Unfortunately fixing the issues has just been 
> deferred until after the imminent release of Wine 1.0.
>
Suck it and see, then:
- Garmins use a proprietary bidirectional protocol for uploads.
- The EW logger X-modem protocol or something.
- IIRC the plotter only accepts data and has slightly odd flow control.

I can live with that. Thanks.

-- 
martin@   | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | 
org       | Zappa fan & glider pilot

Nemo wrote:

> All comments, alternative recommendations, and suggestions welcomed.

I've found with the help of those who have commented on this and other
newsgroups, and mailing lists this:
http://www.novatech.co.uk/novatech/specpage.html?NNB-587
which seems to tick all the boxes and be a very reasonable price. If it
breaks too quickly I can then afford to go looking again. The Eee would
have been perfect, as all she needs it for is Googlemail, web browsing
and a little word processing, but my daughter just couldn't get on with
the tiny screen.

-- 
Nemo
"Feather-footed through the plashy fen passes the questing vole"

Nemo wrote:
> Nemo wrote:
> 
>> All comments, alternative recommendations, and suggestions welcomed.
> 
> I've found with the help of those who have commented on this and other
> newsgroups, and mailing lists this:
> http://www.novatech.co.uk/novatech/specpage.html?NNB-587
> which seems to tick all the boxes and be a very reasonable price. If it
> breaks too quickly I can then afford to go looking again. The Eee would
> have been perfect, as all she needs it for is Googlemail, web browsing
> and a little word processing, but my daughter just couldn't get on with
> the tiny screen.
> 

Are you aware there's a new Eee, the 900/901? It has a 8.9" screen.
Acer have one coming out soon (Acer One), which should be cheaper.

BTW Dell also do laptops with ubuntu pre-installed:
www.dell.co.uk/ubuntu

On Mon, 16 Jun 2008 10:03:01 +0100, chris wrote:

> BTW Dell also do laptops with ubuntu pre-installed:
> www.dell.co.uk/ubuntu

I found that the Dell Linux prices were not that good, when compared to 
their Windows offerings. However, I gave them a phone call (use http://
www.saynoto0870.com/) and managed to haggle a good discount !

The machine has worked without any problems, and survived an Ubuntu 
upgrade with no problems.

Regards
JohnT

John Taylor wrote:
> On Mon, 16 Jun 2008 10:03:01 +0100, chris wrote:
> 
>> BTW Dell also do laptops with ubuntu pre-installed:
>> www.dell.co.uk/ubuntu
> 
> I found that the Dell Linux prices were not that good, when compared to 
> their Windows offerings. However, I gave them a phone call (use http://
> www.saynoto0870.com/) and managed to haggle a good discount !
> 

That's true. I think it's a feature of Dell's customisation pricing
scale, where the more you customise a machine's spec the more of a
premium you pay over a pre-configured model.

The linux offerings are more affected by this as the standard model is
pretty basic and therefore needs a bit of customisation to get it to a
useful spec. So, you don't pay the MS tax, but you do pay the Dell tax :-P

chris wrote:

> Are you aware there's a new Eee, the 900/901? It has a 8.9" screen.
> Acer have one coming out soon (Acer One), which should be cheaper.
> 
> BTW Dell also do laptops with ubuntu pre-installed:
> www.dell.co.uk/ubuntu

Screen's still a bit small, we've settled on 14" minimum, I'd prefer
Slackware, I already know how to work that, so far I've found this
which looks like being worth a try:
http://www.novatech.co.uk/novatech/specpage.html?NNB-587
Unless any one knows anything to its detriment?
-- 
Nemo
"Feather-footed through the plashy fen passes the questing vole"

Nemo wrote:
> chris wrote:
> 
>> Are you aware there's a new Eee, the 900/901? It has a 8.9" screen.
>> Acer have one coming out soon (Acer One), which should be cheaper.
>>
>> BTW Dell also do laptops with ubuntu pre-installed:
>> www.dell.co.uk/ubuntu
> 
> Screen's still a bit small, we've settled on 14" minimum, I'd prefer
> Slackware, I already know how to work that, so far I've found this
> which looks like being worth a try:
> http://www.novatech.co.uk/novatech/specpage.html?NNB-587
> Unless any one knows anything to its detriment?

Detriment is in the eye of the beholder and all that, but I would go for 
something with better supported graphics that the SIS M672. I'm not 
saying they're unsupported, but Intel, Nvidia or ATI graphics would be 
better IME.

At 14 inches something like the Acer Extensa 4220 might even match the 
budget, especially if you flog the soon-to-be-rare OEM XP licence to 
another Acer user.

I'm waiting for the Aspire One myself as I've had enough of cheap 
laptops with too short a battery life.

-- 
JimP

Jim Price wrote:

> Detriment is in the eye of the beholder and all that, but I would go
> for something with better supported graphics that the SIS M672. I'm
> not saying they're unsupported, but Intel, Nvidia or ATI graphics
> would be better IME.
> 
> At 14 inches something like the Acer Extensa 4220 might even match the
> budget, especially if you flog the soon-to-be-rare OEM XP licence to
> another Acer user.

I have ordered the X15 M530, without an OS as Dual booting was only
going to be an issue if I had to buy with some form of Microsoft
installed. Having lived at home when we all moved to Scotland, she is
used to Slackware on my computer.
 
> I'm waiting for the Aspire One myself as I've had enough of cheap
> laptops with too short a battery life.

Battery life was not too serious an issue either as the only reason a
laptop was needed was that she has moved into a tiny cottage in the
next village. The connection is going to be the next problem as my ISP,
who can deliver 6604.81 Kbps to my house, (BT put in optical cable when
they needed to relay some of the telephone wires), can only accept an
order for 250 Kbps for her address. 

-- 
Nemo
"Feather-footed through the plashy fen passes the questing vole"

Nemo wrote:

> Battery life was not too serious an issue either as the only reason a
> laptop was needed was that she has moved into a tiny cottage in the
> next village. The connection is going to be the next problem as my ISP,
> who can deliver 6604.81 Kbps to my house, (BT put in optical cable when
> they needed to relay some of the telephone wires), can only accept an
> order for 250 Kbps for her address. 

It's a slim chance, but there wouldn't happen to be any line of sight 
path between the two houses, would there?


-- 
http://SnapAndScribble.com

On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 05:02:30 +0100, Nemo wrote:

> I have ordered the X15 M530, without an OS as Dual booting was only going
> to be an issue if I had to buy with some form of Microsoft installed.

There's a few gotchas with it and Ubuntu (don't know about Slackware or
any others). They aren't showstoppers.

I'll post a review here later.

On Tue, 17 Jun 2008 08:57:58 +0100, Phil Stovell wrote:

> I'll post a review here later.

It's in a new thread: "Novatech X15 M530 laptop and Ubuntu".

Will Kemp wrote:

> It's a slim chance, but there wouldn't happen to be any line of sight
> path between the two houses, would there?

A very slim chance in the Monalaidh Mountains, plus the hills between us
are covered in Forestry. Well... having looked out of the Window, zero
chance, as far as I can estimate there is a lump of rock about 4 miles
thick and 500 feet high between us. We can't even get a terrestrial TV
signal; or any radio signal in the front rooms of our house. She does
better for the radio however, being on the slope down to Loch Ness. 
-- 
Nemo
"Feather-footed through the plashy fen passes the questing vole"

Nemo wrote:
> Will Kemp wrote:
> 
>> It's a slim chance, but there wouldn't happen to be any line of sight
>> path between the two houses, would there?
> 
> A very slim chance in the Monalaidh Mountains, plus the hills between us
> are covered in Forestry. Well... having looked out of the Window, zero
> chance, as far as I can estimate there is a lump of rock about 4 miles
> thick and 500 feet high between us. We can't even get a terrestrial TV
> signal; or any radio signal in the front rooms of our house. She does
> better for the radio however, being on the slope down to Loch Ness. 

I suppose that just leaves satellite then! ;-)


-- 
http://SnapAndScribble.com

In article <hzP5k.6265$zs1.5869@newsfe28.ams2>,
Will Kemp   wrote:
>Nemo wrote:
>> Will Kemp wrote:
>> 
>>> It's a slim chance, but there wouldn't happen to be any line of sight
>>> path between the two houses, would there?
>> 
>> A very slim chance in the Monalaidh Mountains, plus the hills between us
>> are covered in Forestry. Well... having looked out of the Window, zero
>> chance, as far as I can estimate there is a lump of rock about 4 miles
>> thick and 500 feet high between us. We can't even get a terrestrial TV
>> signal; or any radio signal in the front rooms of our house. She does
>> better for the radio however, being on the slope down to Loch Ness. 
>
>I suppose that just leaves satellite then! ;-)

I'd take 250Kbps 'broadband' over the cost of satellite anyday! That's
still very usable, just make sure you get a good ISP who can chase BT
and put a "good effort" into sorting out the internal wiring to make it
as good as possible.

Gordon

Will Kemp wrote:

> I suppose that just leaves satellite then! ;-)

For the TV I've got the Free Sky box, not terribly impressed, 1000
channels but still not much more worth watching than we had with the
40+ channels on Freeview in England, I'm considering FreeSat. both have
the advantage that one can still listen to the wireless, (I've just
realised that the word wireless, tells every one that I can remember
the Home Service, Light Programme, Dick Barton, the Glums, etc., etc.
Still the good news is my ISP tell me that the broadband they can
provide is still at least 10 times faster than 'Dial-up'. She'll
probably forget how fast it was when she stayed with Mum and Dad. 
-- 
Nemo
"Feather-footed through the plashy fen passes the questing vole"

Gordon Henderson wrote:

> I'd take 250Kbps 'broadband' over the cost of satellite anyday! That's
> still very usable, just make sure you get a good ISP who can chase BT
> and put a "good effort" into sorting out the internal wiring to make
> it as good as possible.
> 
> Gordon

 I'm with Zen, their service has been flawless, having paid through the
nose with the ISP I used when we first got here, and got speeds of
74.05 Kbps > 90 Kps from an 'up to 8 Mb Broadband max service', (Zen
were giving me  6604.81 Kbps yesterday), and already had a very helpful
response from them over the possibility of the best service to her
line, I'm more than impressed.   
-- 
Nemo
"Feather-footed through the plashy fen passes the questing vole"