Hi, I have a master socket ADSL faceplate splitter in my garage from
where I run a cat5 cable to the router in the middle of the house,
then radiate to LAN workstations from there.

Now I want to put a server in the garage. Can I run the Cat5 cable to
this server back in the same trunking that carries the primary ADSL to
the centre of the house from the garage?
-- 
Kind regards,
Geoff Mills

In article , Geoff Mills 
says...
> 
> Hi, I have a master socket ADSL faceplate splitter in my garage from
> where I run a cat5 cable to the router in the middle of the house,
> then radiate to LAN workstations from there.
> 
> Now I want to put a server in the garage. Can I run the Cat5 cable to
> this server back in the same trunking that carries the primary ADSL to
> the centre of the house from the garage?

Yes. Data centers do this with dozens of CAT5 cables running down the 
same trunk run.


-- 
Conor
www.notebooks-r-us.co.uk
I only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow isn't 
looking good either - Scott Adams

On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 01:07:39 +0100, Conor  wrote:

>In article , Geoff Mills 
>says...
>> 
>> Hi, I have a master socket ADSL faceplate splitter in my garage from
>> where I run a cat5 cable to the router in the middle of the house,
>> then radiate to LAN workstations from there.
>> 
>> Now I want to put a server in the garage. Can I run the Cat5 cable to
>> this server back in the same trunking that carries the primary ADSL to
>> the centre of the house from the garage?
>
>Yes. Data centers do this with dozens of CAT5 cables running down the 
>same trunk run.

Thanks for the reassurance. I guessed it was ok but thought I'd check
with the experts.
-- 
Kind regards,
Geoff Mills

Geoff Mills wrote:
> On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 01:07:39 +0100, Conor  wrote:
> 
>> In article , Geoff Mills 
>> says...
>>> Hi, I have a master socket ADSL faceplate splitter in my garage from
>>> where I run a cat5 cable to the router in the middle of the house,
>>> then radiate to LAN workstations from there.
>>>
>>> Now I want to put a server in the garage. Can I run the Cat5 cable to
>>> this server back in the same trunking that carries the primary ADSL to
>>> the centre of the house from the garage?
>> Yes. Data centers do this with dozens of CAT5 cables running down the 
>> same trunk run.
> 
> Thanks for the reassurance. I guessed it was ok but thought I'd check
> with the experts.

Just keep the mains out of the same trunking that carries the cat5. I've 
an idea that's an electrical safety regulation thing, but not a bad 
thing anyway.


-- 
Mike Scott (unet2 <at> [deletethis] scottsonline.org.uk)
Harlow Essex England

Conor wrote:
> In article , Geoff Mills 
> says...
>> Hi, I have a master socket ADSL faceplate splitter in my garage from
>> where I run a cat5 cable to the router in the middle of the house,
>> then radiate to LAN workstations from there.
>>
>> Now I want to put a server in the garage. Can I run the Cat5 cable to
>> this server back in the same trunking that carries the primary ADSL to
>> the centre of the house from the garage?
> 
> Yes. Data centers do this with dozens of CAT5 cables running down the 
> same trunk run.

The difference is that one of the OPs cables carries ADSL signal, which 
may well be considerably more susceptible to interference than Ethernet 
signals (but I have no idea if this is the case or if it would be a 
problem).

Alex

On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 17:58:41 +0100
Alex Fraser  wrote:

> The difference is that one of the OPs cables carries ADSL signal,
> which may well be considerably more susceptible to interference than
> Ethernet signals (but I have no idea if this is the case or if it
> would be a problem).
> 
That's why I hesitated to reply to the OP.

In message , Geoff Mills 
 writes
>Hi, I have a master socket ADSL faceplate splitter in my garage from
>where I run a cat5 cable to the router in the middle of the house,
>then radiate to LAN workstations from there.
>
>Now I want to put a server in the garage. Can I run the Cat5 cable to
>this server back in the same trunking that carries the primary ADSL to
>the centre of the house from the garage?
Yes, get on with it. You might want to keep it a bit separate from any 
mains cabling though.
-- 
Clint Sharp

In article , 
"Conor" wrote:
> 
> In article , Geoff Mills 
> says...
> > 
> > Hi, I have a master socket ADSL faceplate splitter in my garage from
> > where I run a cat5 cable to the router in the middle of the house,
> > then radiate to LAN workstations from there.
> > 
> > Now I want to put a server in the garage. Can I run the Cat5 cable to
> > this server back in the same trunking that carries the primary ADSL to
> > the centre of the house from the garage?
> 
> Yes. Data centers do this with dozens of CAT5 cables running down the 
> same trunk run.

I agree that multiple cat-5 Ethernet cables aren't a problem, with it 
being done every day with structured cabling systems. However, I have a 
small concern about running the ADSL-carrying cable in the same run, 
with it being a low-level RF signal.  The CAT5 Ethernet cables are less 
of a problem, being baseband, high level signals, but they may cause a 
problem for the ADSL signal.  It needs testing. especially if it's 
ordinary slack-twisted phone cable.  At least, try to maintain some 
separation.  

Better, can you mount the router at the BT socket end in the garage and 
run a Cat5 cable to an Ethernet switch in the current router's location?  
That way, the ADSL signal is only adjacent to the source.  You can also 
look at power over Ethernet, if local powering is a problem.

-- 
John W
I you really want to mail me, replace the obvious with co.uk twice

In message , John 
Weston <invalid@earlsway.invalid> writes
>I agree that multiple cat-5 Ethernet cables aren't a problem, with it
>being done every day with structured cabling systems. However, I have a
>small concern about running the ADSL-carrying cable in the same run,
>with it being a low-level RF signal.  The CAT5 Ethernet cables are less
>of a problem, being baseband, high level signals, but they may cause a
>problem for the ADSL signal.
It will work. I've done it.

Tested at master socket and at the end of the 'extension' (run over 
50-60mtrs of cable and bundled into trunking with 35 other CAT5e cables, 
initially running 100MBps, now running Gigabit.) with no reported 
difference in sync speeds or, indeed, SNR/Attenuation (although there 
must have been a little otherwise I'd be patenting the method).

The frequencies are so far apart that even if there was any significant 
cross-talk it wouldn't be a problem. I'd be more concerned about 
interference if I were running the cable alongside mains cabling (unless 
you have a rodent problem then safety should be fine).

> It needs testing.
Test away, unless you make a complete balls of it, it will work.

>especially if it's
>ordinary slack-twisted phone cable.  At least, try to maintain some
>separation.
Use a spare pair in the CAT5 or run an extra cable (always good to run a 
couple of spares anyway).
>
>Better, can you mount the router at the BT socket end in the garage and
>run a Cat5 cable to an Ethernet switch in the current router's location?
>That way, the ADSL signal is only adjacent to the source.
Better idea IMHO.
>You can also
>look at power over Ethernet, if local powering is a problem
Umm, he was going to run a server in the garage too? I'm only guessing 
but I would think that suggests that there may be power available...
>

-- 
Clint Sharp

Clint Sharp wrote:
> In message , John 
> Weston <invalid@earlsway.invalid> writes
>> I agree that multiple cat-5 Ethernet cables aren't a problem, with it
>> being done every day with structured cabling systems. However, I have a
>> small concern about running the ADSL-carrying cable in the same run,
>> with it being a low-level RF signal.  The CAT5 Ethernet cables are less
>> of a problem, being baseband, high level signals, but they may cause a
>> problem for the ADSL signal.
> It will work. I've done it.
> 
> Tested at master socket and at the end of the 'extension' (run over 
> 50-60mtrs of cable and bundled into trunking with 35 other CAT5e cables, 
> initially running 100MBps, now running Gigabit.) with no reported 
> difference in sync speeds or, indeed, SNR/Attenuation (although there 
> must have been a little otherwise I'd be patenting the method).
> 
> The frequencies are so far apart that even if there was any significant 
> cross-talk it wouldn't be a problem. I'd be more concerned about 
> interference if I were running the cable alongside mains cabling (unless 
> you have a rodent problem then safety should be fine).
> 
>> It needs testing.
> Test away, unless you make a complete balls of it, it will work.
> 
>> especially if it's
>> ordinary slack-twisted phone cable.  At least, try to maintain some
>> separation.
> Use a spare pair in the CAT5 or run an extra cable (always good to run a 
> couple of spares anyway).
>>
>> Better, can you mount the router at the BT socket end in the garage and
>> run a Cat5 cable to an Ethernet switch in the current router's location?
>> That way, the ADSL signal is only adjacent to the source.
> Better idea IMHO.
>> You can also
>> look at power over Ethernet, if local powering is a problem
> Umm, he was going to run a server in the garage too? I'm only guessing 
> but I would think that suggests that there may be power available...
>>
> 

You mention frequencies - I've always wondered what the (carrier?) 
frequency for ADSL was.  I presume the Microfilter is a high/low pass 
frequency filter?

Phil, London

On Wed, 16 Sep 2009 22:12:17 +0100, Clint Sharp
 wrote:

>In message , Geoff Mills 
> writes
>>Hi, I have a master socket ADSL faceplate splitter in my garage from
>>where I run a cat5 cable to the router in the middle of the house,
>>then radiate to LAN workstations from there.
>>
>>Now I want to put a server in the garage. Can I run the Cat5 cable to
>>this server back in the same trunking that carries the primary ADSL to
>>the centre of the house from the garage?
>Yes, get on with it. You might want to keep it a bit separate from any 
>mains cabling though.

I like your opinion best of all. I'll probably nag myself into
following one of the more complex and demanding suggestions though,
due to my masochistic nature. :-). 

Also, there's suddenly a lot more cables involved, so I'll need to use
more trunking anyway.

Glad I asked though. NG answers usually change my plans significantly.
-- 
Kind regards,
Geoff Mills

On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 13:55:52 +0100, Mike Scott
 wrote:

<...>
>Just keep the mains out of the same trunking that carries the cat5. I've 
>an idea that's an electrical safety regulation thing, but not a bad 
>thing anyway.

Most of the cable run is under a suspended ground floor. Since I had
to be crawling around under there I decided to run 4 more Cat5s for
good measure. So the part of the cabling that's in trunking up the
garage wall will now require a separate  and larger run of trunking
anyway.

One disturbing thing I did find while rummaging under the floor was
that most of the 3 year old cable clips on the original Cat5 ADSL
cable had broken at their weakest point and let the cable sag in many
places.

It may be that I hammered them in a little too enthusiastically but I
see that the clips on the micro bore heating pipes installed by the
house builder have suffered a similar fate.

I do have a lot of cable ties and am thinking of nailing these to the
floor joists then tying  a multi-cable bundle with each one.

Another alternative might be to cut up some plastic milk containers
and make slings from these,  also nailed to the joists. The advantage
there will be the much wider bearing surface, that's kinder to the
cable sheathing.

Any thoughts on these methods?
-- 
Kind regards,
Geoff Mills

On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 18:27:18 +0100, John Weston
<invalid@earlsway.invalid> wrote:

<...>
>I agree that multiple cat-5 Ethernet cables aren't a problem, with it 
>being done every day with structured cabling systems. However, I have a 
>small concern about running the ADSL-carrying cable in the same run, 
>with it being a low-level RF signal.  The CAT5 Ethernet cables are less 
>of a problem, being baseband, high level signals, but they may cause a 
>problem for the ADSL signal.  It needs testing. especially if it's 
>ordinary slack-twisted phone cable.  At least, try to maintain some 
>separation.  

Very good advice, which I'll follow for several reasons.


>Better, can you mount the router at the BT socket end in the garage and 
>run a Cat5 cable to an Ethernet switch in the current router's location?  
>That way, the ADSL signal is only adjacent to the source.  You can also 
>look at power over Ethernet, if local powering is a problem.
 
There's always the thought that the layout could and should be
otherwise and I can see the point of what you suggest. 

The garage is quite small so most of the shelving in there is high up
and hung from the ceiling.  The garage can't be entered from inside
the house and the car has to be removed to access any of the storage
area.

Then again, if I want to use the under stairs cupboard as part of an
en-suite bathroom...?

Timely recourse to Usenet has saved me from folly again!
-- 
Kind regards,
Geoff Mills

In article <vwIsm.161193$I35.85817@newsfe24.ams2>, "Philip Herlihy" 
wrote:

> 
> You mention frequencies - I've always wondered what the (carrier?) 
> frequency for ADSL was.  I presume the Microfilter is a high/low pass 
> frequency filter?

The "ADSL" microfilter does *nothing* in the ADSL connection path, other 
than socket-type conversion.  It is simply a low-pass filter (0-4kHz) in 
the *telephone* path to remove the ADSL signal (25kHz to 1.1 or 2.2MHz) 
from the phone wiring and apparatus and, in reverse, any >4kHz noise 
picked up on the home phone wiring getting conducted back onto the ADSL-
carrying wiring.

The ADSL modem is able to remove the phone band signals from the 
combined ADSL and phone signals before it decodes it, so there is no 
need for a high pass filter in the ADSL path.

These filters aren't perfect and some are better than others, see: 
http://www.adslnation.com/support/filters.php (but that's written by an 
interested party...).  That's why an installation running CAT5 Ethernet 
and Phone-type ADSL cables in the same cable tray may or may not work, 
so it will need operational checking as I said earlier. 

The ADSL "bits" are carried in "bins" that can be filled or not 
depending on the noise levels in that part of the ADSL signal.  That's 
why lines have different information bandwidths (see 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G.DMT#BINS_.28carrier_channels.29)

-- 
John W
I you really want to mail me, replace the obvious with co.uk twice

John Weston wrote:
> In article <vwIsm.161193$I35.85817@newsfe24.ams2>, "Philip Herlihy" 
> wrote:
> 
>> You mention frequencies - I've always wondered what the (carrier?) 
>> frequency for ADSL was.  I presume the Microfilter is a high/low pass 
>> frequency filter?
> 
> The "ADSL" microfilter does *nothing* in the ADSL connection path, other 
> than socket-type conversion.  It is simply a low-pass filter (0-4kHz) in 
> the *telephone* path to remove the ADSL signal (25kHz to 1.1 or 2.2MHz) 
> from the phone wiring and apparatus and, in reverse, any >4kHz noise 
> picked up on the home phone wiring getting conducted back onto the ADSL-
> carrying wiring.
> 
> The ADSL modem is able to remove the phone band signals from the 
> combined ADSL and phone signals before it decodes it, so there is no 
> need for a high pass filter in the ADSL path.
> 
> These filters aren't perfect and some are better than others, see: 
> http://www.adslnation.com/support/filters.php (but that's written by an 
> interested party...).  That's why an installation running CAT5 Ethernet 
> and Phone-type ADSL cables in the same cable tray may or may not work, 
> so it will need operational checking as I said earlier. 
> 
> The ADSL "bits" are carried in "bins" that can be filled or not 
> depending on the noise levels in that part of the ADSL signal.  That's 
> why lines have different information bandwidths (see 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/G.DMT#BINS_.28carrier_channels.29)
> 

Thanks: very interesting.  The ADSL frequencies are much higher than I'd 
have expected (so no point listening out for them!).

Phil

In message <vwIsm.161193$I35.85817@newsfe24.ams2>, Philip Herlihy 
<me@here.localhost> writes
>You mention frequencies - I've always wondered what the (carrier?) 
>frequency for ADSL was.
There isn't one single carrier frequency, the reason it's called 
broadband is that it uses a 'broad band' of frequencies.
> I presume the Microfilter is a high/low pass frequency filter?
Pretty much yes, you can dispose of the filter if you don't want to use 
a POTS device on the same line.
>
>Phil, London

-- 
Clint Sharp

Clint Sharp wrote:
> In message <vwIsm.161193$I35.85817@newsfe24.ams2>, Philip Herlihy 
> <me@here.localhost> writes
>> You mention frequencies - I've always wondered what the (carrier?) 
>> frequency for ADSL was.
> There isn't one single carrier frequency, the reason it's called 
> broadband is that it uses a 'broad band' of frequencies.
>> I presume the Microfilter is a high/low pass frequency filter?
> Pretty much yes, you can dispose of the filter if you don't want to use 
> a POTS device on the same line.
>>
>> Phil, London
> 

That, and the wikipedia article cited earlier, are very interesting 
indeed.  So the microfilter protects the phone, not the modem, eh? 
Learn something everyday.

Phil

In article , Clint Sharp says...
> 
> In message <vwIsm.161193$I35.85817@newsfe24.ams2>, Philip Herlihy 
> <me@here.localhost> writes
> >You mention frequencies - I've always wondered what the (carrier?) 
> >frequency for ADSL was.
> There isn't one single carrier frequency, the reason it's called 
> broadband is that it uses a 'broad band' of frequencies.

It can use one single carrier frequency but the bandwidth of the signal 
can be several MHz.


-- 
Conor
www.notebooks-r-us.co.uk
I only please one person per day. Today is not your day. Tomorrow isn't 
looking good either - Scott Adams

In message , 
Conor  writes
>> There isn't one single carrier frequency, the reason it's called
>> broadband is that it uses a 'broad band' of frequencies.
>
>It can use one single carrier frequency but the bandwidth of the signal
>can be several MHz.
http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/adsl_technology.htm
>
>

-- 
Clint Sharp

Mike Scott wrote on 17/09/2009 :
> Geoff Mills wrote:
>> On Thu, 17 Sep 2009 01:07:39 +0100, Conor  wrote:
>> 
>>> In article , Geoff Mills 
>>> says...
>>>> Hi, I have a master socket ADSL faceplate splitter in my garage from
>>>> where I run a cat5 cable to the router in the middle of the house,
>>>> then radiate to LAN workstations from there.
>>>>
>>>> Now I want to put a server in the garage. Can I run the Cat5 cable to
>>>> this server back in the same trunking that carries the primary ADSL to
>>>> the centre of the house from the garage?
>>> Yes. Data centers do this with dozens of CAT5 cables running down the same 
>>> trunk run.
>> 
>> Thanks for the reassurance. I guessed it was ok but thought I'd check
>> with the experts.
>
> Just keep the mains out of the same trunking that carries the cat5. I've an 
> idea that's an electrical safety regulation thing, but not a bad thing 
> anyway.

They have to be segregated by a barrier, but can both be run in a 
single trunking providing there is a barrier between.

-- 
Regards,
        Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.co.uk