Not sure whether to post this here or uk.telecom.broadband ... cable 
isn't technically telecoms, is it?

My sister-in-law has asked me to help set up a wireless router on her 
Virgin (formerly Blueyonder) cable broadband connection (i.e. do it for 
her). She has bought (with a little guidance, OK a lot of guidance) an 
inexpensive Linksys cable router -- a WRT54GR -- that seems to be able 
to do what's needed.

I have no familiarity at all with Blueyonder and their setup -- and 
it's a while since I helped another friend do much the same with an NTL 
connection -- so I want to check the setup ... I'm not sure whether 
Virgin actually support the use of a router on a domestic line, so I'm 
reluctant to ask them how to proceed.

SIL currently has a Motorola cable modem connected to the PC via USB, 
and working fine. Both the modem and the PC have unused ethernet ports 
so connection shouldn't be a problem (should it?). Not sure whether I 
need a normal patch cable for that or a crossover?

I read that it may be necessary to get the router to use the same MAC 
address as the PC ... the Linksys router setup web page has a button 
that will clone the PC's ethernet MAC address automagically ... but 
don't I actually want it to clone the MAC address used by the USB 
connection? Is this even necessary any more?

The WAN setup in the router has options for DCHP, Fixed IP, PPPoE, and 
maybe one other (I don't have the kit with me ATM) ... Depending on 
which I select I am asked for more information. Am I right in thinking 
that PPPoE is the right choice here? If I select that I am then asked 
for an ID and password (which SIL has lost, so we may have to call 
Virgin support after all).

Thanks for any help.

Cheers,
 Daniel.

On Sun, 12 Oct 2008 14:34:24 +0100
Daniel James  wrote:

>  I'm not sure
> whether Virgin actually support the use of a router on a domestic
> line

They don't /support/ it just as they don't support Linux - i.e. if you
have problems with your setup the first thing they'll do is tell you to
plug a Windows PC into the modem, but they don't care if you use
one.

> SIL currently has a Motorola cable modem connected to the PC via USB, 
> and working fine. Both the modem and the PC have unused ethernet
> ports so connection shouldn't be a problem (should it?). Not sure
> whether I need a normal patch cable for that or a crossover?

Either should work - ethernet interfaces these days can generally
figure it out for themselves.
> 
> I read that it may be necessary to get the router to use the same MAC 
> address as the PC ... the Linksys router setup web page has a button 
> that will clone the PC's ethernet MAC address automagically ... but 
> don't I actually want it to clone the MAC address used by the USB 
> connection? Is this even necessary any more?

No - just resetting the modem before powering up the router should be
enough.
> 
> The WAN setup in the router has options for DCHP, Fixed IP, PPPoE,
> and maybe one other (I don't have the kit with me ATM) ... Depending
> on which I select I am asked for more information. Am I right in
> thinking that PPPoE is the right choice here? If I select that I am
> then asked for an ID and password (which SIL has lost, so we may have
> to call Virgin support after all).
> 
My Virgin connection uses regular ethernet with DHCP, I don't think
Blueyonder is any different.

On Sun, 12 Oct 2008 14:34:24 +0100, Daniel James 
wrote:

>I have no familiarity at all with Blueyonder and their setup -- and 
>it's a while since I helped another friend do much the same with an NTL 
>connection -- so I want to check the setup ... I'm not sure whether 
>Virgin actually support the use of a router on a domestic line, so I'm 
>reluctant to ask them how to proceed.
You do not need to talk to them at all.

>SIL currently has a Motorola cable modem connected to the PC via USB, 
>and working fine. Both the modem and the PC have unused ethernet ports 
>so connection shouldn't be a problem (should it?).
You should perhaps get the PC connected directly to the modem as an initial step
to check and set up the ethernet.
Then connect the router between the two and ensurec you can get an IP from it
and reach the set-up page.
Presumably the wireless portion is for a laptop? Anyway - different can of
worms...
http://www.virginmedia.com/help/wireless/

>I read that it may be necessary to get the router to use the same MAC 
>address as the PC 
No longer necessary with BY/Virgin.


Geo

In article news:, Geo wrote:
> >I'm not sure whether Virgin actually support the use of a router on
> >a domestic line, so I'm reluctant to ask them how to proceed.
> You do not need to talk to them at all.

I would hope not, no.

> You should perhaps get the PC connected directly to the modem as an
> initial step to check and set up the ethernet.

Sensible.

> Then connect the router between the two and ensurec you can get an
> IP from it and reach the set-up page.

I've tested the connection between the PC and the router. I can get the 
setup pages OK. I'm just not sure what the expected settings are for the 
Blueyonder system and the Motorola modem.

> Presumably the wireless portion is for a laptop?

Laptop, yes, and also a PC my nephews use which will have a USB WiFi 
adaptor (it's old enough not to have an ethernet port, and SIL wants to be 
able to remove the USB NIC as a means of parental control).

> >I read that it may be necessary to get the router to use the same MAC
> >address as the PC 
> No longer necessary with BY/Virgin.

I wasn't sure. Thanks.

Cheers,
 Daniel.

In article news:<20081012150338.4a10ad33@bluemoon>, Rob Morley wrote:
> ... they don't care if you use one.

That's good. ... but I'm not going to create waves by telling them!

> ... a normal patch cable for that or a crossover?
> 
> Either should work - ethernet interfaces these days can generally
> figure it out for themselves.

The kit is all fairly new.

> My Virgin connection uses regular ethernet with DHCP, I don't think
> Blueyonder is any different.

I'm not sure what the difference between the setting Linksys call 
"DHCP" and the setting they call "PPPoE" is -- TBH I'm surprised that 
they're given as alternatives.

They're different things: PPPoE is the packet protocol used to deliver 
data and DHCP is the higher-level protocol used by the client to get an 
IP address from the server ... I don't understand how they can be 
alternatives?

Better download the full manual ...

Cheers,
 Daniel.

On Sun, 12 Oct 2008 21:18:00 +0100
Daniel James  wrote:

> I'm not sure what the difference between the setting Linksys call 
> "DHCP" and the setting they call "PPPoE" is -- TBH I'm surprised that 
> they're given as alternatives.
> 
> They're different things: PPPoE is the packet protocol used to
> deliver data and DHCP is the higher-level protocol used by the client
> to get an IP address from the server ... I don't understand how they
> can be alternatives?
> 
The DHCP and fixed address options refer to simple ethernet
connections -the only authentication required is the MAC address of
your modem. PPPoE adds an ethernet wrapper to PPP packets (the same
protocol used in a POTS dialup connection, including the user/pass
session authentication). AFAIK it's usually only used with DSL services.

In article news:<20081013175734.4b32e3fd@bluemoon>, Rob Morley wrote:
> PPPoE adds an ethernet wrapper to PPP packets (the same
> protocol used in a POTS dialup connection, including the user/pass
> session authentication). AFAIK it's usually only used with DSL services.

It's not obvious whether domestic broadband as supplied by Virgin Media 
(formerly, in this case, Telewest/Blueyonder) is a "Digital Subscriber 
Line" or not. It's neither ADSL nor SDSL, but ...

The uncertainty is made all the greater by the fact that a PPPoE 
connection will (almost?) certainly ALSO be either a "DHCP" connection or 
a "Fixed IP" connection (the IP address to be used must either be supplied 
by the server or be a fixed address programmed into the host or the 
router).

However, in the case of a (former Blueyonder) Virgin line the correct 
option is "DHCP" (and not PPPoE at all).

Cheers,
 Daniel.

In article news:, Geo wrote:
> You should perhaps get the PC connected directly to the modem as an
> initial step to check and set up the ethernet.

I thought I had already done that ... but I did so again. There was no 
connection between the PC and the modem.

Switching to a different CAT-5 cable made all the difference (though the 
cable itself does not now seem to be faulty ... it may have been dirty or 
not pushed fully into its socket at one end).

For the record, this is what worked:

Router connection setting: DHCP
Optional host/domain settings: blank
Cloning PC Mac address was not required.

Note that when detaching the cable modem from the USB connection to the PC 
and connecting it by ethernet to the PC or the router it was necessary to 
power cycle the modem. Putting it into standby using the button on the 
modem is NOT sufficient.
-- 
Cheers,
 Daniel.

On Tue, 14 Oct 2008 17:02:51 +0100, Daniel James
 wrote:

>In article news:<20081013175734.4b32e3fd@bluemoon>, Rob Morley wrote:
>> PPPoE adds an ethernet wrapper to PPP packets (the same
>> protocol used in a POTS dialup connection, including the user/pass
>> session authentication). AFAIK it's usually only used with DSL services.
>
>It's not obvious whether domestic broadband as supplied by Virgin Media 
>(formerly, in this case, Telewest/Blueyonder) is a "Digital Subscriber 
>Line" or not. It's neither ADSL nor SDSL, but ...

nope. the "line" uses DOCSIS, but since VM provide a cable modem - the
interface to the customer is 10/100 UTP Ethernet (eg 100 Base-Tx)
>
>The uncertainty is made all the greater by the fact that a PPPoE 
>connection will (almost?) certainly ALSO be either a "DHCP" connection or 
>a "Fixed IP" connection (the IP address to be used must either be supplied 
>by the server or be a fixed address programmed into the host or the 
>router).

VM do not use PPPoE. They use the same straight IP v4 over Ethernet
that you would use locally between a PC and a router - ie the default
you get when you plug an Ethernet card into a PC etc.
>
>However, in the case of a (former Blueyonder) Virgin line the correct 
>option is "DHCP" (and not PPPoE at all).

And the same for NTL (ex C&W, ex Nynex).
>
>Cheers,
> Daniel.
> 
-- 
Regards

stephen_hope@xyzworld.com - replace xyz with ntl

On Tue, 14 Oct 2008 17:02:51 +0100
Daniel James  wrote:

> In article news:<20081013175734.4b32e3fd@bluemoon>, Rob Morley wrote:
> > PPPoE adds an ethernet wrapper to PPP packets (the same
> > protocol used in a POTS dialup connection, including the user/pass
> > session authentication). AFAIK it's usually only used with DSL
> > services.
> 
> It's not obvious whether domestic broadband as supplied by Virgin
> Media (formerly, in this case, Telewest/Blueyonder) is a "Digital
> Subscriber Line" or not. It's neither ADSL nor SDSL, but ...

Does the modem connect to a phone line or a cable that looks like a
satellite cable?  Phone = DSL, cable = cable.
> 
> The uncertainty is made all the greater by the fact that a PPPoE 
> connection will (almost?) certainly ALSO be either a "DHCP"
> connection or a "Fixed IP" connection (the IP address to be used must
> either be supplied by the server or be a fixed address programmed
> into the host or the router).

As I said, PPPoE runs on ethernet (the name rather gives it away) and
the ethernet connection will of course need to have an address assigned
to it either automatically or manually.
> 
> However, in the case of a (former Blueyonder) Virgin line the correct 
> option is "DHCP" (and not PPPoE at all).
> 
I'm pretty sure I said that already.

In article news:<20081015210732.13c56f39@bluemoon>, Rob Morley wrote:
> Does the modem connect to a phone line or a cable that looks like a
> satellite cable?  Phone = DSL, cable = cable.

The latter ... but there's a phone running off the same connection, too.

That's not the point, though -- I do know the difference between broadband 
supplied over cable and broadband supplied over an POTS telephone line. 

I was just nitpicking that the use of the term "DSL" isn't particularly 
helpful, as it could equally well be applied to a digital service supplied 
to a cable subscriber as to a digital service (supplied over an analogue 
POTS line) to a BT or other telco subscriber. I did know what you meant.

I'm sorry, now, that I muddied the waters ...

> As I said, PPPoE runs on ethernet (the name rather gives it away) and
> the ethernet connection will of course need to have an address assigned
> to it either automatically or manually.

No, IP over ethernet needs an address but PPPoE emulates a POTS line and 
provides a PPP connection.

No IP address is needed unless and until you come to run IP over that PPP 
connection (which you will do, in a router, of course) -- at THAT stage an 
IP address is needed (and probably obtained using DHCP).

With "PPPoE" the router provides a bridge between the PPP on the WAN side 
and IP on the LAN side, while with the "DHCP" and "Fixed IP" options both 
sides use IP. Use of PPP on the WAN side means that the LAN can be 
required to log in with an ID and password before connecting (exactly as 
with a dial-up connection).

So, the fact that the Blueyonder cable modem is connected to the router by 
ethernet doesn't tell you what protocol it uses over ethernet. You need to 
know what that is protocol to know how to configure the router.

The Linksys manual says:

| DHCP. By default, the Router’s Internet Connection Type is set
| to Automatic Configuration - DHCP, which should be kept only if
| your ISP supports DHCP or you are connecting through a dynamic
| IP address.

The word "only" there carries the suggestion that this will not usually be 
the case. (The PPPoE option will also pick up a dynamic address for the IP 
layer, of course, so the whole passage is questionable.)

> > However, in the case of a (former Blueyonder) Virgin line the correct 
> > option is "DHCP" (and not PPPoE at all).
> 
> I'm pretty sure I said that already.

Not in quite so many words (you wrote: "My Virgin connection uses regular 
ethernet with DHCP, I don't think Blueyonder is any different"), so I was 
confirming that this is indeed the case with a Blueyonder line.

Blueyonder are part of Virgin now, of course, but I assumed that you meant 
that your Virgin line was a former NTL line, rather than a former Telewest 
line -- there's no guarantee that they would be the same.

In retrospect, I should have Googled for the exact model of modem that 
Blueyonder supplied, and checked the spec for it's LAN-side connection. 
That would have told me what I needed to know.

Cheers,
 Daniel.

On Thu, 16 Oct 2008 11:31:15 +0100, Daniel James
 wrote:

>In article news:<20081015210732.13c56f39@bluemoon>, Rob Morley wrote:
>> Does the modem connect to a phone line or a cable that looks like a
>> satellite cable?  Phone = DSL, cable = cable.
>
>The latter ... but there's a phone running off the same connection, too.
>
>That's not the point, though -- I do know the difference between broadband 
>supplied over cable and broadband supplied over an POTS telephone line. 
>
>I was just nitpicking that the use of the term "DSL" isn't particularly 
>helpful, as it could equally well be applied to a digital service supplied 
>to a cable subscriber as to a digital service (supplied over an analogue 
>POTS line) to a BT or other telco subscriber. I did know what you meant.
>
>I'm sorry, now, that I muddied the waters ...
>
>> As I said, PPPoE runs on ethernet (the name rather gives it away) and
>> the ethernet connection will of course need to have an address assigned
>> to it either automatically or manually.
>
>No, IP over ethernet needs an address but PPPoE emulates a POTS line and 
>provides a PPP connection.

OK - just to pick the nits over again....

PPPoE is a way of running PPP (which was originally a serial line
protocol, but not limited to phone lines as works on sync serial
links, SDH / Sonet pipes, Frame relay etc) to run across Ethernet.

it gets used in various circumstances where you want to tunnel across
a link to maintain separation, or where you carry a serial link
onwards across LAN infrastructure.

the reason ISPs like it for consumer broadband is that it has the
concept of "open vs closed" state - so they get a signalling scheme
that shows whether a specific connection is operational. 

A lot of original broadband seemed to use equipment really designed
for serial links, so PPPoE allowed a new link type to integrate into
management systems - which is probably irrelevant now, but historical
baggage in telecomms is remarkably persistent......

So - you see PPPoE on some cable broadband systems, although i dont
think it has been used widely in the UK.

you get varients on DSL, either as PPP over Ethernet on non ATM DSLAM
kit, or as PPPoEoA for ATM based DSLAMs and so on. 
>
>No IP address is needed unless and until you come to run IP over that PPP 
>connection (which you will do, in a router, of course) -- at THAT stage an 
>IP address is needed (and probably obtained using DHCP).
>
>With "PPPoE" the router provides a bridge between the PPP on the WAN side 
>and IP on the LAN side, while with the "DHCP" and "Fixed IP" options both 
>sides use IP. Use of PPP on the WAN side means that the LAN can be 
>required to log in with an ID and password before connecting (exactly as 
>with a dial-up connection).

it depends. PPP itself can be formatted to have IP only on top, or
bridging only, or IP & bridging in parallel, and lots of other
protocols that dont get used much any more.

The authentication is a separate issue to the higher level protocols -
the password (or sometimes something more complex like CHAP) is about
allowing the PPP link to "open", then the higher level format
negotiates what protocols come up.
>
>So, the fact that the Blueyonder cable modem is connected to the router by 
>ethernet doesn't tell you what protocol it uses over ethernet. You need to 
>know what that is protocol to know how to configure the router.
>
Agreed - although lots of SOHO routers try to auto detect what is
there when they initialise - since PPPoE and "plain IP" use different
Ethernet formats a device can try various requests until it gets a
response that makes sense.

>The Linksys manual says:
>
>| DHCP. By default, the Router’s Internet Connection Type is set
>| to Automatic Configuration - DHCP, which should be kept only if
>| your ISP supports DHCP or you are connecting through a dynamic
>| IP address.
>
>The word "only" there carries the suggestion that this will not usually be 
>the case. (The PPPoE option will also pick up a dynamic address for the IP 
>layer, of course, so the whole passage is questionable.)
>
>> > However, in the case of a (former Blueyonder) Virgin line the correct 
>> > option is "DHCP" (and not PPPoE at all).
>> 
>> I'm pretty sure I said that already.
>
>Not in quite so many words (you wrote: "My Virgin connection uses regular 
>ethernet with DHCP, I don't think Blueyonder is any different"), so I was 
>confirming that this is indeed the case with a Blueyonder line.
>
>Blueyonder are part of Virgin now, of course, but I assumed that you meant 
>that your Virgin line was a former NTL line, rather than a former Telewest 
>line -- there's no guarantee that they would be the same.
>
>In retrospect, I should have Googled for the exact model of modem that 
>Blueyonder supplied, and checked the spec for it's LAN-side connection. 
>That would have told me what I needed to know.
>
>Cheers,
> Daniel.
> 
>
>
-- 
Regards

stephen_hope@xyzworld.com - replace xyz with ntl