My neighbour has a Mira electric shower that was in there when they moved 
10years ago in and it is cattled, with a major leak.  He has decided that as 
he needs to replace the shower unit he may aswell redo the whole cubicle, 
tiles etc. which he has asked me to do for him.  I have no problem doing 
this but would like some advice.  The cable looks like 6mm to me, what's the 
biggest KW shower he can have on this cable, if it has any bearing the 
shower is on the first floor and the CU is in the  cellar (he doesn't really 
want to rip carpets and floorboards up to swap it!  I cannot see anything on 
the existing shower to indicate its KW.  Also with the new Part P regs, can 
I (legally) do this for him or do we need to get a 'proper' sparky in?

Thanks

John

"John"  wrote in message 
news:d89tgb$u3$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...

> My neighbour has a Mira electric shower that was in there when they moved 
> 10years ago in and it is cattled, with a major leak.  He has decided that 
> as he needs to replace the shower unit he may aswell redo the whole 
> cubicle, tiles etc. which he has asked me to do for him.  I have no 
> problem doing this but would like some advice.  The cable looks like 6mm 
> to me, what's the biggest KW shower he can have on this cable, if it has 
> any bearing the shower is on the first floor and the CU is in the  cellar 
> (he doesn't really want to rip carpets and floorboards up to swap it!  I 
> cannot see anything on the existing shower to indicate its KW.  Also with 
> the new Part P regs, can I (legally) do this for him or do we need to get 
> a 'proper' sparky in?


There is nothing in Part P that stipulates that a 'proper sparky' *must* do 
anything. However................AIUI, any electrical work in bathrooms, 
kitchens, or outside the house (eg wiring a garden shed) must 'either' be 
done by a qualified person *or* be reported to the local authority prior to 
DIY work and then examined and approved by a qualifed person after the work 
has been carried out.

Kev

"John"  wrote in message 
news:d89tgb$u3$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...

> My neighbour has a Mira electric shower that was in there when they moved 
> 10years ago in and it is cattled, with a major leak.  He has decided that 
> as he needs to replace the shower unit he may aswell redo the whole 
> cubicle, tiles etc. which he has asked me to do for him.  I have no 
> problem doing this but would like some advice.  The cable looks like 6mm 
> to me, what's the biggest KW shower he can have on this cable, if it has 
> any bearing the shower is on the first floor and the CU is in the  cellar 
> (he doesn't really want to rip carpets and floorboards up to swap it!  I 
> cannot see anything on the existing shower to indicate its KW.  Also with 
> the new Part P regs, can I (legally) do this for him or do we need to get 
> a 'proper' sparky in?


There is nothing in Part P that stipulates that a 'proper sparky' *must* do 
anything. However................AIUI, any electrical work in bathrooms, 
kitchens, or outside the house (eg wiring a garden shed) must 'either' be 
done by a qualified person *or* be reported to the local authority prior to 
DIY work and then examined and approved by a qualifed person after the work 
has been carried out.

Kev

"Uno Hoo!"  wrote in message 
news:d89vdl$5pm$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...

>
> "John"  wrote in message 
> news:d89tgb$u3$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
>> My neighbour has a Mira electric shower that was in there when they moved 
>> 10years ago in and it is cattled, with a major leak.  He has decided that 
>> as he needs to replace the shower unit he may aswell redo the whole 
>> cubicle, tiles etc. which he has asked me to do for him.  I have no 
>> problem doing this but would like some advice.  The cable looks like 6mm 
>> to me, what's the biggest KW shower he can have on this cable, if it has 
>> any bearing the shower is on the first floor and the CU is in the  cellar 
>> (he doesn't really want to rip carpets and floorboards up to swap it!  I 
>> cannot see anything on the existing shower to indicate its KW.  Also with 
>> the new Part P regs, can I (legally) do this for him or do we need to get 
>> a 'proper' sparky in?
>
> There is nothing in Part P that stipulates that a 'proper sparky' *must* 
> do anything. However................AIUI, any electrical work in 
> bathrooms, kitchens, or outside the house (eg wiring a garden shed) must 
> 'either' be done by a qualified person *or* be reported to the local 
> authority prior to DIY work and then examined and approved by a qualifed 
> person after the work has been carried out.
>
> Kev


Pretty much.  Except it's a Registered person (or person working for a firm 
where there is one registered person...) - you could be qualified to design 
the entire UK distribution system, but it wouldn't count for one jot as far 
as domestic electrical work is concerned now!

The other thing is that someone posted a link to the IEE newsletter a while 
ago that suggested that like-for-like shower unit replacement would not 
considered to be notifiable.  The Electrickery gurus around here might know 
if there has been any further clarification on this, though.

-- 
Richard Sampson

mail me at
richard at olifant d-ot co do-t uk

"Uno Hoo!"  wrote in message 
news:d89vdl$5pm$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...

>
> "John"  wrote in message 
> news:d89tgb$u3$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
>> My neighbour has a Mira electric shower that was in there when they moved 
>> 10years ago in and it is cattled, with a major leak.  He has decided that 
>> as he needs to replace the shower unit he may aswell redo the whole 
>> cubicle, tiles etc. which he has asked me to do for him.  I have no 
>> problem doing this but would like some advice.  The cable looks like 6mm 
>> to me, what's the biggest KW shower he can have on this cable, if it has 
>> any bearing the shower is on the first floor and the CU is in the  cellar 
>> (he doesn't really want to rip carpets and floorboards up to swap it!  I 
>> cannot see anything on the existing shower to indicate its KW.  Also with 
>> the new Part P regs, can I (legally) do this for him or do we need to get 
>> a 'proper' sparky in?
>
> There is nothing in Part P that stipulates that a 'proper sparky' *must* 
> do anything. However................AIUI, any electrical work in 
> bathrooms, kitchens, or outside the house (eg wiring a garden shed) must 
> 'either' be done by a qualified person *or* be reported to the local 
> authority prior to DIY work and then examined and approved by a qualifed 
> person after the work has been carried out.
>
> Kev


Pretty much.  Except it's a Registered person (or person working for a firm 
where there is one registered person...) - you could be qualified to design 
the entire UK distribution system, but it wouldn't count for one jot as far 
as domestic electrical work is concerned now!

The other thing is that someone posted a link to the IEE newsletter a while 
ago that suggested that like-for-like shower unit replacement would not 
considered to be notifiable.  The Electrickery gurus around here might know 
if there has been any further clarification on this, though.

-- 
Richard Sampson

mail me at
richard at olifant d-ot co do-t uk

"RichardS" <noone@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:3greocFdsh98U1@individual.net...

>
> "Uno Hoo!"  wrote in message
> news:d89vdl$5pm$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >
> > "John"  wrote in message
> > news:d89tgb$u3$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
> >> My neighbour has a Mira electric shower that was in there when they
moved
> >> 10years ago in and it is cattled, with a major leak.  He has decided
that
> >> as he needs to replace the shower unit he may aswell redo the whole
> >> cubicle, tiles etc. which he has asked me to do for him.  I have no
> >> problem doing this but would like some advice.  The cable looks like
6mm
> >> to me, what's the biggest KW shower he can have on this cable, if it
has
> >> any bearing the shower is on the first floor and the CU is in the
cellar
> >> (he doesn't really want to rip carpets and floorboards up to swap it!
I
> >> cannot see anything on the existing shower to indicate its KW.  Also
with
> >> the new Part P regs, can I (legally) do this for him or do we need to
get
> >> a 'proper' sparky in?
> >
> > There is nothing in Part P that stipulates that a 'proper sparky' *must*
> > do anything. However................AIUI, any electrical work in
> > bathrooms, kitchens, or outside the house (eg wiring a garden shed) must
> > 'either' be done by a qualified person *or* be reported to the local
> > authority prior to DIY work and then examined and approved by a qualifed
> > person after the work has been carried out.
> >
> > Kev
>
> Pretty much.  Except it's a Registered person (or person working for a
firm
> where there is one registered person...) - you could be qualified to
design
> the entire UK distribution system, but it wouldn't count for one jot as
far
> as domestic electrical work is concerned now!
>
> The other thing is that someone posted a link to the IEE newsletter a
while
> ago that suggested that like-for-like shower unit replacement would not
> considered to be notifiable.  The Electrickery gurus around here might
know
> if there has been any further clarification on this, though.
>
> Richard Sampson
>

I think you're right on that like for like swapping Mr S, and this is only
because the installation never had a problem with a load of the size you
already have.  That's as long as the original installation has already been
inspected by a qualified person first of course.

"RichardS" <noone@invalid.invalid> wrote in message
news:3greocFdsh98U1@individual.net...

>
> "Uno Hoo!"  wrote in message
> news:d89vdl$5pm$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >
> > "John"  wrote in message
> > news:d89tgb$u3$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
> >> My neighbour has a Mira electric shower that was in there when they
moved
> >> 10years ago in and it is cattled, with a major leak.  He has decided
that
> >> as he needs to replace the shower unit he may aswell redo the whole
> >> cubicle, tiles etc. which he has asked me to do for him.  I have no
> >> problem doing this but would like some advice.  The cable looks like
6mm
> >> to me, what's the biggest KW shower he can have on this cable, if it
has
> >> any bearing the shower is on the first floor and the CU is in the
cellar
> >> (he doesn't really want to rip carpets and floorboards up to swap it!
I
> >> cannot see anything on the existing shower to indicate its KW.  Also
with
> >> the new Part P regs, can I (legally) do this for him or do we need to
get
> >> a 'proper' sparky in?
> >
> > There is nothing in Part P that stipulates that a 'proper sparky' *must*
> > do anything. However................AIUI, any electrical work in
> > bathrooms, kitchens, or outside the house (eg wiring a garden shed) must
> > 'either' be done by a qualified person *or* be reported to the local
> > authority prior to DIY work and then examined and approved by a qualifed
> > person after the work has been carried out.
> >
> > Kev
>
> Pretty much.  Except it's a Registered person (or person working for a
firm
> where there is one registered person...) - you could be qualified to
design
> the entire UK distribution system, but it wouldn't count for one jot as
far
> as domestic electrical work is concerned now!
>
> The other thing is that someone posted a link to the IEE newsletter a
while
> ago that suggested that like-for-like shower unit replacement would not
> considered to be notifiable.  The Electrickery gurus around here might
know
> if there has been any further clarification on this, though.
>
> Richard Sampson
>

I think you're right on that like for like swapping Mr S, and this is only
because the installation never had a problem with a load of the size you
already have.  That's as long as the original installation has already been
inspected by a qualified person first of course.

> My neighbour has a Mira electric shower that was in there when they moved 
> 10years ago in and it is cattled, with a major leak.  He has decided that 
> as he needs to replace the shower unit he may aswell redo the whole 
> cubicle, tiles etc. which he has asked me to do for him.  I have no 
> problem doing this but would like some advice.  The cable looks like 6mm 
> to me, what's the biggest KW shower he can have on this cable, if it has 
> any bearing the shower is on the first floor and the CU is in the  cellar 
> (he doesn't really want to rip carpets and floorboards up to swap it!  I 
> cannot see anything on the existing shower to indicate its KW.  Also with 
> the new Part P regs, can I (legally) do this for him or do we need to get 
> a 'proper' sparky in?



It requires fitting and wiring by a competent person. Sorry to say it but 
the fact that you have to ask demonstrates that you are not qualified to. 
Remember: what are you going to do if your work causes someone to die? You 
don't get a second chance with electric showers.


Peter Crosland

> My neighbour has a Mira electric shower that was in there when they moved 
> 10years ago in and it is cattled, with a major leak.  He has decided that 
> as he needs to replace the shower unit he may aswell redo the whole 
> cubicle, tiles etc. which he has asked me to do for him.  I have no 
> problem doing this but would like some advice.  The cable looks like 6mm 
> to me, what's the biggest KW shower he can have on this cable, if it has 
> any bearing the shower is on the first floor and the CU is in the  cellar 
> (he doesn't really want to rip carpets and floorboards up to swap it!  I 
> cannot see anything on the existing shower to indicate its KW.  Also with 
> the new Part P regs, can I (legally) do this for him or do we need to get 
> a 'proper' sparky in?



It requires fitting and wiring by a competent person. Sorry to say it but 
the fact that you have to ask demonstrates that you are not qualified to. 
Remember: what are you going to do if your work causes someone to die? You 
don't get a second chance with electric showers.


Peter Crosland

Be careful. I had a Mira a few years back, which packed up and has been 
replaced by a non electric one. The cable to it was carrying 24 volt DC.


"John"  wrote in message 
news:d89tgb$u3$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
| My neighbour has a Mira electric shower that was in there when they moved
| 10years ago in and it is cattled, with a major leak.  He has decided that 
as
| he needs to replace the shower unit he may aswell redo the whole cubicle,
| tiles etc. which he has asked me to do for him.  I have no problem doing
| this but would like some advice.  The cable looks like 6mm to me, what's 
the
| biggest KW shower he can have on this cable, if it has any bearing the
| shower is on the first floor and the CU is in the  cellar (he doesn't 
really
| want to rip carpets and floorboards up to swap it!  I cannot see anything 
on
| the existing shower to indicate its KW.  Also with the new Part P regs, 
can
| I (legally) do this for him or do we need to get a 'proper' sparky in?
|
| Thanks
|
| John
|
|

Be careful. I had a Mira a few years back, which packed up and has been 
replaced by a non electric one. The cable to it was carrying 24 volt DC.


"John"  wrote in message 
news:d89tgb$u3$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
| My neighbour has a Mira electric shower that was in there when they moved
| 10years ago in and it is cattled, with a major leak.  He has decided that 
as
| he needs to replace the shower unit he may aswell redo the whole cubicle,
| tiles etc. which he has asked me to do for him.  I have no problem doing
| this but would like some advice.  The cable looks like 6mm to me, what's 
the
| biggest KW shower he can have on this cable, if it has any bearing the
| shower is on the first floor and the CU is in the  cellar (he doesn't 
really
| want to rip carpets and floorboards up to swap it!  I cannot see anything 
on
| the existing shower to indicate its KW.  Also with the new Part P regs, 
can
| I (legally) do this for him or do we need to get a 'proper' sparky in?
|
| Thanks
|
| John
|
|

"Peter Crosland"  wrote in message 
news:42a890f4$0$1708$ed2e19e4@ptn-nntp-reader04.plus.net...

>> My neighbour has a Mira electric shower that was in there when they moved 
>> 10years ago in and it is cattled, with a major leak.  He has decided that 
>> as he needs to replace the shower unit he may aswell redo the whole 
>> cubicle, tiles etc. which he has asked me to do for him.  I have no 
>> problem doing this but would like some advice.  The cable looks like 6mm 
>> to me, what's the biggest KW shower he can have on this cable, if it has 
>> any bearing the shower is on the first floor and the CU is in the  cellar 
>> (he doesn't really want to rip carpets and floorboards up to swap it!  I 
>> cannot see anything on the existing shower to indicate its KW.  Also with 
>> the new Part P regs, can I (legally) do this for him or do we need to get 
>> a 'proper' sparky in?
>
>
> It requires fitting and wiring by a competent person. Sorry to say it but 
> the fact that you have to ask demonstrates that you are not qualified to. 
> Remember: what are you going to do if your work causes someone to die? You 
> don't get a second chance with electric showers.
>
>


Following on from the consultation statistics (which the fat buffoons dept 
chose to ignore and introduce Part P anyway) - exactly how many people in 
the uk have ever died from electrocution by an electric shower?

"Peter Crosland"  wrote in message 
news:42a890f4$0$1708$ed2e19e4@ptn-nntp-reader04.plus.net...

>> My neighbour has a Mira electric shower that was in there when they moved 
>> 10years ago in and it is cattled, with a major leak.  He has decided that 
>> as he needs to replace the shower unit he may aswell redo the whole 
>> cubicle, tiles etc. which he has asked me to do for him.  I have no 
>> problem doing this but would like some advice.  The cable looks like 6mm 
>> to me, what's the biggest KW shower he can have on this cable, if it has 
>> any bearing the shower is on the first floor and the CU is in the  cellar 
>> (he doesn't really want to rip carpets and floorboards up to swap it!  I 
>> cannot see anything on the existing shower to indicate its KW.  Also with 
>> the new Part P regs, can I (legally) do this for him or do we need to get 
>> a 'proper' sparky in?
>
>
> It requires fitting and wiring by a competent person. Sorry to say it but 
> the fact that you have to ask demonstrates that you are not qualified to. 
> Remember: what are you going to do if your work causes someone to die? You 
> don't get a second chance with electric showers.
>
>


Following on from the consultation statistics (which the fat buffoons dept 
chose to ignore and introduce Part P anyway) - exactly how many people in 
the uk have ever died from electrocution by an electric shower?

">> It requires fitting and wiring by a competent person. Sorry to say it 
but

>> the fact that you have to ask demonstrates that you are not qualified to. 
>> Remember: what are you going to do if your work causes someone to die? 
>> You don't get a second chance with electric showers.

> Following on from the consultation statistics (which the fat buffoons dept 
> chose to ignore and introduce Part P anyway) - exactly how many people in 
> the uk have ever died from electrocution by an electric shower?


I have no idea, but do you want to be responsible for one more? Stop being 
an idiot and advise your neighbour to get the job done properly.

Peter Crosland

">> It requires fitting and wiring by a competent person. Sorry to say it 
but

>> the fact that you have to ask demonstrates that you are not qualified to. 
>> Remember: what are you going to do if your work causes someone to die? 
>> You don't get a second chance with electric showers.

> Following on from the consultation statistics (which the fat buffoons dept 
> chose to ignore and introduce Part P anyway) - exactly how many people in 
> the uk have ever died from electrocution by an electric shower?


I have no idea, but do you want to be responsible for one more? Stop being 
an idiot and advise your neighbour to get the job done properly.

Peter Crosland

On Thu, 09 Jun 2005 19:05:44 +0100, RichardS wrote:


> 
> "Uno Hoo!"  wrote in message 
> news:d89vdl$5pm$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
>>
>> "John"  wrote in message 
>> news:d89tgb$u3$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
>>> My neighbour has a Mira electric shower that was in there when they moved 
>>> 10years ago in and it is cattled, with a major leak.  He has decided that 
>>> as he needs to replace the shower unit he may aswell redo the whole 
>>> cubicle, tiles etc. which he has asked me to do for him.  I have no 
>>> problem doing this but would like some advice.  The cable looks like 6mm 
>>> to me, what's the biggest KW shower he can have on this cable, if it has 
>>> any bearing the shower is on the first floor and the CU is in the  cellar 
>>> (he doesn't really want to rip carpets and floorboards up to swap it!  I 
>>> cannot see anything on the existing shower to indicate its KW.  Also with 
>>> the new Part P regs, can I (legally) do this for him or do we need to get 
>>> a 'proper' sparky in?
>>
>> There is nothing in Part P that stipulates that a 'proper sparky' *must* 
>> do anything. However................AIUI, any electrical work in 
>> bathrooms, kitchens, or outside the house (eg wiring a garden shed) must 
>> 'either' be done by a qualified person *or* be reported to the local 
>> authority prior to DIY work and then examined and approved by a qualifed 
>> person after the work has been carried out.
>>
>> Kev
> 
> Pretty much.  Except it's a Registered person (or person working for a firm 
> where there is one registered person...) - you could be qualified to design 
> the entire UK distribution system, but it wouldn't count for one jot as far 
> as domestic electrical work is concerned now!
> 
> The other thing is that someone posted a link to the IEE newsletter a while 
> ago that suggested that like-for-like shower unit replacement would not 
> considered to be notifiable.  The Electrickery gurus around here might know 
> if there has been any further clarification on this, though.


By the book that would have to be the exact same model, which is not being
made anymore,I expect. What you do next will depend on 
1) How much of a jobsworth you are. 
2) ... the customer is.
3) Whether any other notifiable work is taking place. 
4) How confident you are that nothing will every go seriously wrong. 

The 6mm cable under the ideal installation conditions could take over 40A
so it could be protected by a 40A MCB. Which gives 9.2kW @ 230V (if the
shower is specified @230V) or 9.6kW @240V (if the shower is gven at 240V). 

However if the cable is anything other than surface clipped it falls to
38A thus protected by 35A breaker etc.


-- 
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk 
Gas fitting FAQ  http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

On Thu, 09 Jun 2005 19:05:44 +0100, RichardS wrote:


> 
> "Uno Hoo!"  wrote in message 
> news:d89vdl$5pm$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
>>
>> "John"  wrote in message 
>> news:d89tgb$u3$1@nwrdmz03.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com...
>>> My neighbour has a Mira electric shower that was in there when they moved 
>>> 10years ago in and it is cattled, with a major leak.  He has decided that 
>>> as he needs to replace the shower unit he may aswell redo the whole 
>>> cubicle, tiles etc. which he has asked me to do for him.  I have no 
>>> problem doing this but would like some advice.  The cable looks like 6mm 
>>> to me, what's the biggest KW shower he can have on this cable, if it has 
>>> any bearing the shower is on the first floor and the CU is in the  cellar 
>>> (he doesn't really want to rip carpets and floorboards up to swap it!  I 
>>> cannot see anything on the existing shower to indicate its KW.  Also with 
>>> the new Part P regs, can I (legally) do this for him or do we need to get 
>>> a 'proper' sparky in?
>>
>> There is nothing in Part P that stipulates that a 'proper sparky' *must* 
>> do anything. However................AIUI, any electrical work in 
>> bathrooms, kitchens, or outside the house (eg wiring a garden shed) must 
>> 'either' be done by a qualified person *or* be reported to the local 
>> authority prior to DIY work and then examined and approved by a qualifed 
>> person after the work has been carried out.
>>
>> Kev
> 
> Pretty much.  Except it's a Registered person (or person working for a firm 
> where there is one registered person...) - you could be qualified to design 
> the entire UK distribution system, but it wouldn't count for one jot as far 
> as domestic electrical work is concerned now!
> 
> The other thing is that someone posted a link to the IEE newsletter a while 
> ago that suggested that like-for-like shower unit replacement would not 
> considered to be notifiable.  The Electrickery gurus around here might know 
> if there has been any further clarification on this, though.


By the book that would have to be the exact same model, which is not being
made anymore,I expect. What you do next will depend on 
1) How much of a jobsworth you are. 
2) ... the customer is.
3) Whether any other notifiable work is taking place. 
4) How confident you are that nothing will every go seriously wrong. 

The 6mm cable under the ideal installation conditions could take over 40A
so it could be protected by a 40A MCB. Which gives 9.2kW @ 230V (if the
shower is specified @230V) or 9.6kW @240V (if the shower is gven at 240V). 

However if the cable is anything other than surface clipped it falls to
38A thus protected by 35A breaker etc.


-- 
Ed Sirett - Property maintainer and registered gas fitter.
The FAQ for uk.diy is at http://www.diyfaq.org.uk 
Gas fitting FAQ  http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
Sealed CH FAQ http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/SealedCH.html

On Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:30:52 +0000 (UTC), "John"
 wrote:


>Following on from the consultation statistics (which the fat buffoons dept 
>chose to ignore and introduce Part P anyway) - exactly how many people in 
>the uk have ever died from electrocution by an electric shower? 
>


Yes. It is a totally hopeless law, an electrician can install
electrics in public\commercial\industrial properties, which
can involve showers, baths, chemicals, gases, high pressure
boilers, even outdoor electrical supplies in public areas such
as a busy town centre.
But yet cannot install anything in a domestic property.

Not all electricians work on domestic properties, the vast
majority working on public\commercial\industrial properties
are more than qualified and experienced to do such work, and more
likely to be better at doing the job than the vast majority
of house bashers who some-how gain the Part P approval.

The whole thing was setup to keep the electrical contractors
happy as they were desperate to get their hands on the domestic
market for electrical installations. 

The commercial\industral companies would have put the government
pressure to forget such a hopeless law, on various grounds, financial
being one.  

The worse thing about this law has already atarted to show it
colours as people start to see how much they have to pay for a
electrician with Part P, they will ask a electrician who can do
the work and he will pass them off as he doesn't want to end up
in court. 

So they will decide to do it themselfs with out any sort of guidance.
This means the installation will not be installed by anybody
who is competent, and instead we will end up with the worst of
all worlds.

To answer your question one person who is known as two jags or
two jabs and the department of the deputy prime minister was
behind this hopeless law.

J

On Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:30:52 +0000 (UTC), "John"
 wrote:


>Following on from the consultation statistics (which the fat buffoons dept 
>chose to ignore and introduce Part P anyway) - exactly how many people in 
>the uk have ever died from electrocution by an electric shower? 
>


Yes. It is a totally hopeless law, an electrician can install
electrics in public\commercial\industrial properties, which
can involve showers, baths, chemicals, gases, high pressure
boilers, even outdoor electrical supplies in public areas such
as a busy town centre.
But yet cannot install anything in a domestic property.

Not all electricians work on domestic properties, the vast
majority working on public\commercial\industrial properties
are more than qualified and experienced to do such work, and more
likely to be better at doing the job than the vast majority
of house bashers who some-how gain the Part P approval.

The whole thing was setup to keep the electrical contractors
happy as they were desperate to get their hands on the domestic
market for electrical installations. 

The commercial\industral companies would have put the government
pressure to forget such a hopeless law, on various grounds, financial
being one.  

The worse thing about this law has already atarted to show it
colours as people start to see how much they have to pay for a
electrician with Part P, they will ask a electrician who can do
the work and he will pass them off as he doesn't want to end up
in court. 

So they will decide to do it themselfs with out any sort of guidance.
This means the installation will not be installed by anybody
who is competent, and instead we will end up with the worst of
all worlds.

To answer your question one person who is known as two jags or
two jabs and the department of the deputy prime minister was
behind this hopeless law.

J

To answer the earlier question as to how many people have died in domestic 
electrical horrors during the last year.....I heard on the radio that the 
number over the last year was 5.

Yes just 5.

Now how much money did this new electrics scheme cost..............the 
setting up.....the advertising......the training...
the recruitment.....( jobs for the boys). How much time will qualified 
electricians have to spend to get qualified again...and what will it cost in 
courses. How many jobs were created for the trainers the manual writers etc.
A whole new industry has been spawned by the granny state at a massive 
cost...............paid by who.............YES thats right
US the taxpayers.More managers...managing issues that dont really exist.

And to save 5 lives ?

The cowboys will carry on as usual...........
The gullible will beleive the propaganda and pay the higher prices for their 
"qualified electrician"...just like "gatso speed cameras reduce  road 
accidents"..................so lets have some more.

Its madness............

First the plumbers
Now the electricians
Who next..................?????.............Bricklayers? Mechanics? Mini cab 
drivers? Hospital cleaners??
they can all kill you if they dont do their job right 
.....................yes lets set up some more quangos.............more jobs 
for the boys..more knighthoods..................aggggggggggggggggh!!!!

just dont let the facts cloud your judgement!!!


Barry

On Thu, 9 Jun 2005 17:15:55 +0000 (UTC), "John"
 wrote:

You ask several questions. Attempting to answer them in sequence.

[snip intro about shower] 

>The cable looks like 6mm to me, what's the  biggest KW shower he
>can have on this cable


Be SURE of your cable sizes, if necessary obtain a short length of 6mm
and compare it. The current carrying capacity of 6mm depends on many
factors but 32 amps is an "almost certainly safe" rating for it. The
length limitations are basically all to do with voltage drop, and for
a shower, and over less than a 50m run of cable, it shouldn't be an
issue.


>I cannot see anything on 
>the existing shower to indicate its KW.


Try taking the cover off (*with the mains off, and make sure you put
it back properly*)
The KW rating will likely be stamped on the heating chamber somewhere,
along with its voltage rating and other pertinant information, again,
be entirely *sure*


>  Also with the new Part P regs, can 
>I (legally) do this for him or do we need to get a 'proper' sparky in?


Legally I am not sure because frankly part P is a disaster area, they
wrote it in haste. The likely answer is NO, you can't legally do it
because it's in a 'special area' or whatever the wording is. 

If he has the money, consult a sparky, you may be able to do all the
hard work, thus saving the guy money, and have the spark hook it up
etc etc. Be aware, it's likely to need an RCD, which may not be on the
circuit now, plus, a straight changeout like this should also be
accompanied by a detailed examination for loose terminals at the
switch, overheating, cable damage, and so forth.

As others have said further down this thread, electric showers are
potentially incredibly dangerous, I find it amazing that in a country
that frowns on lightswitches in bathrooms, you're allowed a 32 or 40
amp 240 volt circuit IN the shower area!

That being said, certainly take a look at the existing unit, inside
and out, try to determine its rating and so forth.

Apologies if any of this sounds 'bleeding obvious' or patronizing, I
just like people to cover all bases when it comes to electricity, I've
seen more near misses than I want to.

To answer the earlier question as to how many people have died in domestic 
electrical horrors during the last year.....I heard on the radio that the 
number over the last year was 5.

Yes just 5.

Now how much money did this new electrics scheme cost..............the 
setting up.....the advertising......the training...
the recruitment.....( jobs for the boys). How much time will qualified 
electricians have to spend to get qualified again...and what will it cost in 
courses. How many jobs were created for the trainers the manual writers etc.
A whole new industry has been spawned by the granny state at a massive 
cost...............paid by who.............YES thats right
US the taxpayers.More managers...managing issues that dont really exist.

And to save 5 lives ?

The cowboys will carry on as usual...........
The gullible will beleive the propaganda and pay the higher prices for their 
"qualified electrician"...just like "gatso speed cameras reduce  road 
accidents"..................so lets have some more.

Its madness............

First the plumbers
Now the electricians
Who next..................?????.............Bricklayers? Mechanics? Mini cab 
drivers? Hospital cleaners??
they can all kill you if they dont do their job right 
.....................yes lets set up some more quangos.............more jobs 
for the boys..more knighthoods..................aggggggggggggggggh!!!!

just dont let the facts cloud your judgement!!!


Barry

"Peter Crosland"  wrote in message 
news:42a89c5a$0$1698$ed2e19e4@ptn-nntp-reader04.plus.net...

>">> It requires fitting and wiring by a competent person. Sorry to say it 
>but
>>> the fact that you have to ask demonstrates that you are not qualified 
>>> to. Remember: what are you going to do if your work causes someone to 
>>> die? You don't get a second chance with electric showers.
>
>> Following on from the consultation statistics (which the fat buffoons 
>> dept chose to ignore and introduce Part P anyway) - exactly how many 
>> people in the uk have ever died from electrocution by an electric shower?
>
> I have no idea, but do you want to be responsible for one more? Stop being 
> an idiot and advise your neighbour to get the job done properly.
>


Its not my neighbour. You should learn to follow attribution of threads<g>

I am not aware of ANY electrocutions from showers but you may know of 
different statistics? Apparently the figure of five lethal incidents per 
year from all electrical work is currently being accepted but no-one seems 
to be able to breakdown this figure into shocks from appliances/defective 
flexes/fixed equipment. The chances are very much that portable appliances 
and flexes are the real culprits

Having a paper qualification from an accredited body may or may not have any 
bearing whatsoever on the job being done properly or the safety of the 
fitting of a replacement for the existing unit. I suggest you are the one 
who should stop being an idiot and wake up to reality. Being a 
professionally qualified Electrical Engineer, even one who teaches the 
"electricians" of tomorrow is not accepted by the fat buffoons department as 
being competent to carry out domestic work but somehow is acceptable for 
commercial and industrial work, power transmission and distribution, 
generation etc. Sense? there isn't any!

"Peter Crosland"  wrote in message 
news:42a89c5a$0$1698$ed2e19e4@ptn-nntp-reader04.plus.net...

>">> It requires fitting and wiring by a competent person. Sorry to say it 
>but
>>> the fact that you have to ask demonstrates that you are not qualified 
>>> to. Remember: what are you going to do if your work causes someone to 
>>> die? You don't get a second chance with electric showers.
>
>> Following on from the consultation statistics (which the fat buffoons 
>> dept chose to ignore and introduce Part P anyway) - exactly how many 
>> people in the uk have ever died from electrocution by an electric shower?
>
> I have no idea, but do you want to be responsible for one more? Stop being 
> an idiot and advise your neighbour to get the job done properly.


In my experience - if you want a job doing 'properly', the last person to 
get to do it is a 'professional'.

Kev

"Peter Crosland"  wrote in message 
news:42a89c5a$0$1698$ed2e19e4@ptn-nntp-reader04.plus.net...

>">> It requires fitting and wiring by a competent person. Sorry to say it 
>but
>>> the fact that you have to ask demonstrates that you are not qualified 
>>> to. Remember: what are you going to do if your work causes someone to 
>>> die? You don't get a second chance with electric showers.
>
>> Following on from the consultation statistics (which the fat buffoons 
>> dept chose to ignore and introduce Part P anyway) - exactly how many 
>> people in the uk have ever died from electrocution by an electric shower?
>
> I have no idea, but do you want to be responsible for one more? Stop being 
> an idiot and advise your neighbour to get the job done properly.
>


Its not my neighbour. You should learn to follow attribution of threads<g>

I am not aware of ANY electrocutions from showers but you may know of 
different statistics? Apparently the figure of five lethal incidents per 
year from all electrical work is currently being accepted but no-one seems 
to be able to breakdown this figure into shocks from appliances/defective 
flexes/fixed equipment. The chances are very much that portable appliances 
and flexes are the real culprits

Having a paper qualification from an accredited body may or may not have any 
bearing whatsoever on the job being done properly or the safety of the 
fitting of a replacement for the existing unit. I suggest you are the one 
who should stop being an idiot and wake up to reality. Being a 
professionally qualified Electrical Engineer, even one who teaches the 
"electricians" of tomorrow is not accepted by the fat buffoons department as 
being competent to carry out domestic work but somehow is acceptable for 
commercial and industrial work, power transmission and distribution, 
generation etc. Sense? there isn't any!

"Peter Crosland"  wrote in message 
news:42a89c5a$0$1698$ed2e19e4@ptn-nntp-reader04.plus.net...

>">> It requires fitting and wiring by a competent person. Sorry to say it 
>but
>>> the fact that you have to ask demonstrates that you are not qualified 
>>> to. Remember: what are you going to do if your work causes someone to 
>>> die? You don't get a second chance with electric showers.
>
>> Following on from the consultation statistics (which the fat buffoons 
>> dept chose to ignore and introduce Part P anyway) - exactly how many 
>> people in the uk have ever died from electrocution by an electric shower?
>
> I have no idea, but do you want to be responsible for one more? Stop being 
> an idiot and advise your neighbour to get the job done properly.


In my experience - if you want a job doing 'properly', the last person to 
get to do it is a 'professional'.

Kev

John_ZIZinvalid <nospamZAZinvalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:


>On Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:30:52 +0000 (UTC), "John"
> wrote:
>
>Yes. It is a totally hopeless law, an electrician can install
>electrics in public\commercial\industrial properties, which
>can involve showers, baths, chemicals, gases, high pressure
>boilers, even outdoor electrical supplies in public areas such
>as a busy town centre.
>But yet cannot install anything in a domestic property.


Would someone in an appropriate position see fit to doing a seriously
dodgy wiring job somewhere two jags might frequent. Obviously his
house is off limits but anywhere else is fair game. 

;-)

--

John_ZIZinvalid <nospamZAZinvalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:


>On Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:30:52 +0000 (UTC), "John"
> wrote:
>
>Yes. It is a totally hopeless law, an electrician can install
>electrics in public\commercial\industrial properties, which
>can involve showers, baths, chemicals, gases, high pressure
>boilers, even outdoor electrical supplies in public areas such
>as a busy town centre.
>But yet cannot install anything in a domestic property.


Would someone in an appropriate position see fit to doing a seriously
dodgy wiring job somewhere two jags might frequent. Obviously his
house is off limits but anywhere else is fair game. 

;-)

--

"Uno Hoo!"  wrote in message
news:d8agvd$l6e$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...

>
> "Peter Crosland"  wrote in message
> news:42a89c5a$0$1698$ed2e19e4@ptn-nntp-reader04.plus.net...
> >">> It requires fitting and wiring by a competent person. Sorry to say it
> >but
> >>> the fact that you have to ask demonstrates that you are not qualified
> >>> to. Remember: what are you going to do if your work causes someone to
> >>> die? You don't get a second chance with electric showers.
> >
> >> Following on from the consultation statistics (which the fat buffoons
> >> dept chose to ignore and introduce Part P anyway) - exactly how many
> >> people in the uk have ever died from electrocution by an electric
shower?
> >
> > I have no idea, but do you want to be responsible for one more? Stop
being
> > an idiot and advise your neighbour to get the job done properly.
>
> In my experience - if you want a job doing 'properly', the last person to
> get to do it is a 'professional'.
>


Old saying I heard some years ago -  The Titanic was built by professionals,
Noah's ark was built by amateurs.

You choose.

;-))

Steve

"Martin Evans"  wrote in message
news:9biha1ls2847b559mr71ca2eeu3e7q42gm@4ax.com...

> John_ZIZinvalid <nospamZAZinvalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
> >On Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:30:52 +0000 (UTC), "John"
> > wrote:
> >
> >Yes. It is a totally hopeless law, an electrician can install
> >electrics in public\commercial\industrial properties, which
> >can involve showers, baths, chemicals, gases, high pressure
> >boilers, even outdoor electrical supplies in public areas such
> >as a busy town centre.
> >But yet cannot install anything in a domestic property.
>
> Would someone in an appropriate position see fit to doing a seriously
> dodgy wiring job somewhere two jags might frequent. Obviously his
> house is off limits but anywhere else is fair game.
>
> ;-)



If I thought that that useless bastard was going to show up, I'd wire up the
fridge door to the mains.

"Uno Hoo!"  wrote in message
news:d8agvd$l6e$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...

>
> "Peter Crosland"  wrote in message
> news:42a89c5a$0$1698$ed2e19e4@ptn-nntp-reader04.plus.net...
> >">> It requires fitting and wiring by a competent person. Sorry to say it
> >but
> >>> the fact that you have to ask demonstrates that you are not qualified
> >>> to. Remember: what are you going to do if your work causes someone to
> >>> die? You don't get a second chance with electric showers.
> >
> >> Following on from the consultation statistics (which the fat buffoons
> >> dept chose to ignore and introduce Part P anyway) - exactly how many
> >> people in the uk have ever died from electrocution by an electric
shower?
> >
> > I have no idea, but do you want to be responsible for one more? Stop
being
> > an idiot and advise your neighbour to get the job done properly.
>
> In my experience - if you want a job doing 'properly', the last person to
> get to do it is a 'professional'.
>


Old saying I heard some years ago -  The Titanic was built by professionals,
Noah's ark was built by amateurs.

You choose.

;-))

Steve

"Martin Evans"  wrote in message
news:9biha1ls2847b559mr71ca2eeu3e7q42gm@4ax.com...

> John_ZIZinvalid <nospamZAZinvalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>
> >On Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:30:52 +0000 (UTC), "John"
> > wrote:
> >
> >Yes. It is a totally hopeless law, an electrician can install
> >electrics in public\commercial\industrial properties, which
> >can involve showers, baths, chemicals, gases, high pressure
> >boilers, even outdoor electrical supplies in public areas such
> >as a busy town centre.
> >But yet cannot install anything in a domestic property.
>
> Would someone in an appropriate position see fit to doing a seriously
> dodgy wiring job somewhere two jags might frequent. Obviously his
> house is off limits but anywhere else is fair game.
>
> ;-)



If I thought that that useless bastard was going to show up, I'd wire up the
fridge door to the mains.

"shazzbat"  wrote in message
news:d8aihb$k3s$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...

>
> "Martin Evans"  wrote in message
> news:9biha1ls2847b559mr71ca2eeu3e7q42gm@4ax.com...
> > John_ZIZinvalid <nospamZAZinvalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> >
> > >On Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:30:52 +0000 (UTC), "John"
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >Yes. It is a totally hopeless law, an electrician can install
> > >electrics in public\commercial\industrial properties, which
> > >can involve showers, baths, chemicals, gases, high pressure
> > >boilers, even outdoor electrical supplies in public areas such
> > >as a busy town centre.
> > >But yet cannot install anything in a domestic property.
> >
> > Would someone in an appropriate position see fit to doing a seriously
> > dodgy wiring job somewhere two jags might frequent. Obviously his
> > house is off limits but anywhere else is fair game.
> >
> > ;-)
>
>
> If I thought that that useless bastard was going to show up, I'd wire up
the
> fridge door to the mains.
>
>

That would make a real earth of him.  :-)  Well, he's been making an earth
of us for long enough, hasn't he?

In article <d8a5db$mst$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>,
	"John"  writes:

> Following on from the consultation statistics (which the fat buffoons dept 
> chose to ignore and introduce Part P anyway) - exactly how many people in 
> the uk have ever died from electrocution by an electric shower? 


One that I recall vaguely, in 2003. (I can't find
any record on the net anymore, but a news item was
available at the time at http://tinyurl.com/r7k0
which is another reason for not using short URLs.)

The shower was professionally installed not that
long before the incident. The victim had commented
on getting electric shocks from it before, but
didn't seem to have done anything about it.
Incredibly, the contractor who installed the shower
was called in to investigate what was wrong with it,
so the investigation report would be worthless.
My comment at the time was that this would be like
asking Jarvis to investigate the Potters Bar rail
crash.

-- 
Andrew Gabriel

"shazzbat"  wrote in message
news:d8aihb$k3s$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...

>
> "Martin Evans"  wrote in message
> news:9biha1ls2847b559mr71ca2eeu3e7q42gm@4ax.com...
> > John_ZIZinvalid <nospamZAZinvalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
> >
> > >On Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:30:52 +0000 (UTC), "John"
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >Yes. It is a totally hopeless law, an electrician can install
> > >electrics in public\commercial\industrial properties, which
> > >can involve showers, baths, chemicals, gases, high pressure
> > >boilers, even outdoor electrical supplies in public areas such
> > >as a busy town centre.
> > >But yet cannot install anything in a domestic property.
> >
> > Would someone in an appropriate position see fit to doing a seriously
> > dodgy wiring job somewhere two jags might frequent. Obviously his
> > house is off limits but anywhere else is fair game.
> >
> > ;-)
>
>
> If I thought that that useless bastard was going to show up, I'd wire up
the
> fridge door to the mains.
>
>

That would make a real earth of him.  :-)  Well, he's been making an earth
of us for long enough, hasn't he?

In article <d8a5db$mst$1@nwrdmz01.dmz.ncs.ea.ibs-infra.bt.com>,
	"John"  writes:

> Following on from the consultation statistics (which the fat buffoons dept 
> chose to ignore and introduce Part P anyway) - exactly how many people in 
> the uk have ever died from electrocution by an electric shower? 


One that I recall vaguely, in 2003. (I can't find
any record on the net anymore, but a news item was
available at the time at http://tinyurl.com/r7k0
which is another reason for not using short URLs.)

The shower was professionally installed not that
long before the incident. The victim had commented
on getting electric shocks from it before, but
didn't seem to have done anything about it.
Incredibly, the contractor who installed the shower
was called in to investigate what was wrong with it,
so the investigation report would be worthless.
My comment at the time was that this would be like
asking Jarvis to investigate the Potters Bar rail
crash.

-- 
Andrew Gabriel

shazzbat wrote:

> "Martin Evans"  wrote in message
> news:9biha1ls2847b559mr71ca2eeu3e7q42gm@4ax.com...
> 
>>John_ZIZinvalid <nospamZAZinvalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:30:52 +0000 (UTC), "John"
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>Yes. It is a totally hopeless law, an electrician can install
>>>electrics in public\commercial\industrial properties, which
>>>can involve showers, baths, chemicals, gases, high pressure
>>>boilers, even outdoor electrical supplies in public areas such
>>>as a busy town centre.
>>>But yet cannot install anything in a domestic property.
>>
>>Would someone in an appropriate position see fit to doing a seriously
>>dodgy wiring job somewhere two jags might frequent. Obviously his
>>house is off limits but anywhere else is fair game.
>>
>>;-)
> 
> 
> 
> If I thought that that useless bastard was going to show up, I'd wire up the
> fridge door to the mains.
> 
> 

Surely you don't believe the DPM personally make this decsison?
Where is the political mileage in that?
It was more likely some jobs worth civil servant who gets 
jollys/kickbacks from the elec industry. maybe even "retired" and 
working for them now..
It does happen, I've seen it with my own eyes. Senior civil servant to 
preferred vendor ..
"would you care to persue this quote from your competitors while I'm out 
of the  room"

shazzbat wrote:

> "Uno Hoo!"  wrote in message
> news:d8agvd$l6e$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
> 
>>"Peter Crosland"  wrote in message
>>news:42a89c5a$0$1698$ed2e19e4@ptn-nntp-reader04.plus.net...
>>
>>>">> It requires fitting and wiring by a competent person. Sorry to say it
>>>but
>>>
>>>>>the fact that you have to ask demonstrates that you are not qualified
>>>>>to. Remember: what are you going to do if your work causes someone to
>>>>>die? You don't get a second chance with electric showers.
>>>
>>>>Following on from the consultation statistics (which the fat buffoons
>>>>dept chose to ignore and introduce Part P anyway) - exactly how many
>>>>people in the uk have ever died from electrocution by an electric
> 
> shower?
> 
>>>I have no idea, but do you want to be responsible for one more? Stop
> 
> being
> 
>>>an idiot and advise your neighbour to get the job done properly.
>>
>>In my experience - if you want a job doing 'properly', the last person to
>>get to do it is a 'professional'.
>>
> 
> 
> Old saying I heard some years ago -  The Titanic was built by professionals,
> Noah's ark was built by amateurs.

The Titantic may well have been built by pros, but it was driven by a fool

shazzbat wrote:

> "Martin Evans"  wrote in message
> news:9biha1ls2847b559mr71ca2eeu3e7q42gm@4ax.com...
> 
>>John_ZIZinvalid <nospamZAZinvalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:30:52 +0000 (UTC), "John"
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>Yes. It is a totally hopeless law, an electrician can install
>>>electrics in public\commercial\industrial properties, which
>>>can involve showers, baths, chemicals, gases, high pressure
>>>boilers, even outdoor electrical supplies in public areas such
>>>as a busy town centre.
>>>But yet cannot install anything in a domestic property.
>>
>>Would someone in an appropriate position see fit to doing a seriously
>>dodgy wiring job somewhere two jags might frequent. Obviously his
>>house is off limits but anywhere else is fair game.
>>
>>;-)
> 
> 
> 
> If I thought that that useless bastard was going to show up, I'd wire up the
> fridge door to the mains.
> 
> 

Surely you don't believe the DPM personally make this decsison?
Where is the political mileage in that?
It was more likely some jobs worth civil servant who gets 
jollys/kickbacks from the elec industry. maybe even "retired" and 
working for them now..
It does happen, I've seen it with my own eyes. Senior civil servant to 
preferred vendor ..
"would you care to persue this quote from your competitors while I'm out 
of the  room"

shazzbat wrote:

> "Uno Hoo!"  wrote in message
> news:d8agvd$l6e$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
> 
>>"Peter Crosland"  wrote in message
>>news:42a89c5a$0$1698$ed2e19e4@ptn-nntp-reader04.plus.net...
>>
>>>">> It requires fitting and wiring by a competent person. Sorry to say it
>>>but
>>>
>>>>>the fact that you have to ask demonstrates that you are not qualified
>>>>>to. Remember: what are you going to do if your work causes someone to
>>>>>die? You don't get a second chance with electric showers.
>>>
>>>>Following on from the consultation statistics (which the fat buffoons
>>>>dept chose to ignore and introduce Part P anyway) - exactly how many
>>>>people in the uk have ever died from electrocution by an electric
> 
> shower?
> 
>>>I have no idea, but do you want to be responsible for one more? Stop
> 
> being
> 
>>>an idiot and advise your neighbour to get the job done properly.
>>
>>In my experience - if you want a job doing 'properly', the last person to
>>get to do it is a 'professional'.
>>
> 
> 
> Old saying I heard some years ago -  The Titanic was built by professionals,
> Noah's ark was built by amateurs.

The Titantic may well have been built by pros, but it was driven by a fool

"shazzbat"  wrote in message 
news:d8aihb$k3s$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...

>
> "Martin Evans"  wrote in message
> news:9biha1ls2847b559mr71ca2eeu3e7q42gm@4ax.com...
>> John_ZIZinvalid <nospamZAZinvalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> >On Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:30:52 +0000 (UTC), "John"
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >Yes. It is a totally hopeless law, an electrician can install
>> >electrics in public\commercial\industrial properties, which
>> >can involve showers, baths, chemicals, gases, high pressure
>> >boilers, even outdoor electrical supplies in public areas such
>> >as a busy town centre.
>> >But yet cannot install anything in a domestic property.
>>
>> Would someone in an appropriate position see fit to doing a seriously
>> dodgy wiring job somewhere two jags might frequent. Obviously his
>> house is off limits but anywhere else is fair game.
>>
>> ;-)
>
>
> If I thought that that useless bastard was going to show up, I'd wire up 
> the
> fridge door to the mains.
>  have you got part p to do that as it will mean adding a new circuit
> 

"shazzbat"  wrote in message 
news:d8aihb$k3s$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...

>
> "Martin Evans"  wrote in message
> news:9biha1ls2847b559mr71ca2eeu3e7q42gm@4ax.com...
>> John_ZIZinvalid <nospamZAZinvalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>>
>> >On Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:30:52 +0000 (UTC), "John"
>> > wrote:
>> >
>> >Yes. It is a totally hopeless law, an electrician can install
>> >electrics in public\commercial\industrial properties, which
>> >can involve showers, baths, chemicals, gases, high pressure
>> >boilers, even outdoor electrical supplies in public areas such
>> >as a busy town centre.
>> >But yet cannot install anything in a domestic property.
>>
>> Would someone in an appropriate position see fit to doing a seriously
>> dodgy wiring job somewhere two jags might frequent. Obviously his
>> house is off limits but anywhere else is fair game.
>>
>> ;-)
>
>
> If I thought that that useless bastard was going to show up, I'd wire up 
> the
> fridge door to the mains.
>  have you got part p to do that as it will mean adding a new circuit
> 

"OldBill"  wrote in message 
news:d8akvn$658$2@news.freedom2surf.net...

> shazzbat wrote:
>> "Uno Hoo!"  wrote in message
>> news:d8agvd$l6e$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
>>
>>>"Peter Crosland"  wrote in message
>>>news:42a89c5a$0$1698$ed2e19e4@ptn-nntp-reader04.plus.net...
>>>
>>>>">> It requires fitting and wiring by a competent person. Sorry to say 
>>>>it
>>>>but
>>>>
>>>>>>the fact that you have to ask demonstrates that you are not qualified
>>>>>>to. Remember: what are you going to do if your work causes someone to
>>>>>>die? You don't get a second chance with electric showers.
>>>>
>>>>>Following on from the consultation statistics (which the fat buffoons
>>>>>dept chose to ignore and introduce Part P anyway) - exactly how many
>>>>>people in the uk have ever died from electrocution by an electric
>>
>> shower?
>>
>>>>I have no idea, but do you want to be responsible for one more? Stop
>>
>> being
>>
>>>>an idiot and advise your neighbour to get the job done properly.
>>>
>>>In my experience - if you want a job doing 'properly', the last person to
>>>get to do it is a 'professional'.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Old saying I heard some years ago -  The Titanic was built by 
>> professionals,
>> Noah's ark was built by amateurs.
> The Titantic may well have been built by pros, but it was driven by a fool


But it was still claimed by the builders to be 'unsinkable' !!

Kev

"OldBill"  wrote in message 
news:d8akvn$658$2@news.freedom2surf.net...

> shazzbat wrote:
>> "Uno Hoo!"  wrote in message
>> news:d8agvd$l6e$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
>>
>>>"Peter Crosland"  wrote in message
>>>news:42a89c5a$0$1698$ed2e19e4@ptn-nntp-reader04.plus.net...
>>>
>>>>">> It requires fitting and wiring by a competent person. Sorry to say 
>>>>it
>>>>but
>>>>
>>>>>>the fact that you have to ask demonstrates that you are not qualified
>>>>>>to. Remember: what are you going to do if your work causes someone to
>>>>>>die? You don't get a second chance with electric showers.
>>>>
>>>>>Following on from the consultation statistics (which the fat buffoons
>>>>>dept chose to ignore and introduce Part P anyway) - exactly how many
>>>>>people in the uk have ever died from electrocution by an electric
>>
>> shower?
>>
>>>>I have no idea, but do you want to be responsible for one more? Stop
>>
>> being
>>
>>>>an idiot and advise your neighbour to get the job done properly.
>>>
>>>In my experience - if you want a job doing 'properly', the last person to
>>>get to do it is a 'professional'.
>>>
>>
>>
>> Old saying I heard some years ago -  The Titanic was built by 
>> professionals,
>> Noah's ark was built by amateurs.
> The Titantic may well have been built by pros, but it was driven by a fool


But it was still claimed by the builders to be 'unsinkable' !!

Kev

"Uno Hoo!"  wrote in message
news:d8bjn5$dpq$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...

>
> "OldBill"  wrote in message
> news:d8akvn$658$2@news.freedom2surf.net...
> > shazzbat wrote:
> >> "Uno Hoo!"  wrote in message
> >> news:d8agvd$l6e$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >>
> >>>"Peter Crosland"  wrote in message
> >>>news:42a89c5a$0$1698$ed2e19e4@ptn-nntp-reader04.plus.net...
> >>>
> >>>>">> It requires fitting and wiring by a competent person. Sorry to say
> >>>>it
> >>>>but
> >>>>
> >>>>>>the fact that you have to ask demonstrates that you are not
qualified
> >>>>>>to. Remember: what are you going to do if your work causes someone
to
> >>>>>>die? You don't get a second chance with electric showers.
> >>>>
> >>>>>Following on from the consultation statistics (which the fat buffoons
> >>>>>dept chose to ignore and introduce Part P anyway) - exactly how many
> >>>>>people in the uk have ever died from electrocution by an electric
> >>
> >> shower?
> >>
> >>>>I have no idea, but do you want to be responsible for one more? Stop
> >>
> >> being
> >>
> >>>>an idiot and advise your neighbour to get the job done properly.
> >>>
> >>>In my experience - if you want a job doing 'properly', the last person
to
> >>>get to do it is a 'professional'.
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> Old saying I heard some years ago -  The Titanic was built by
> >> professionals,
> >> Noah's ark was built by amateurs.
> > The Titantic may well have been built by pros, but it was driven by a
fool
>
> But it was still claimed by the builders to be 'unsinkable' !!
>
> Kev
>

But she would have been un-sinkable if it hadn't been for the un-trained
people leaving all the water-tight doors open.

"Uno Hoo!"  wrote in message
news:d8bjn5$dpq$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...

>
> "OldBill"  wrote in message
> news:d8akvn$658$2@news.freedom2surf.net...
> > shazzbat wrote:
> >> "Uno Hoo!"  wrote in message
> >> news:d8agvd$l6e$1@newsg4.svr.pol.co.uk...
> >>
> >>>"Peter Crosland"  wrote in message
> >>>news:42a89c5a$0$1698$ed2e19e4@ptn-nntp-reader04.plus.net...
> >>>
> >>>>">> It requires fitting and wiring by a competent person. Sorry to say
> >>>>it
> >>>>but
> >>>>
> >>>>>>the fact that you have to ask demonstrates that you are not
qualified
> >>>>>>to. Remember: what are you going to do if your work causes someone
to
> >>>>>>die? You don't get a second chance with electric showers.
> >>>>
> >>>>>Following on from the consultation statistics (which the fat buffoons
> >>>>>dept chose to ignore and introduce Part P anyway) - exactly how many
> >>>>>people in the uk have ever died from electrocution by an electric
> >>
> >> shower?
> >>
> >>>>I have no idea, but do you want to be responsible for one more? Stop
> >>
> >> being
> >>
> >>>>an idiot and advise your neighbour to get the job done properly.
> >>>
> >>>In my experience - if you want a job doing 'properly', the last person
to
> >>>get to do it is a 'professional'.
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >> Old saying I heard some years ago -  The Titanic was built by
> >> professionals,
> >> Noah's ark was built by amateurs.
> > The Titantic may well have been built by pros, but it was driven by a
fool
>
> But it was still claimed by the builders to be 'unsinkable' !!
>
> Kev
>

But she would have been un-sinkable if it hadn't been for the un-trained
people leaving all the water-tight doors open.

In article <vE0qe.4226$q46.2078@newsfe1-win.ntli.net>, Stickems.
<URL:mailto:Stickems.@last.invalid> wrote:


> Be careful. I had a Mira a few years back, which packed up and has been 
> replaced by a non electric one. The cable to it was carrying 24 volt DC.


Nonsense as usual like all your antisocial postings.

-- 
AJL Electronics (G6FGO) Ltd         :  Satellite and TV aerial systems
http://www.classicmicrocars.co.uk   :  http://www.ajlelectronics.co.uk

        **   Would you like to learn to post effectively?      **
        **   http://www.allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?How_to_post       **

In article <vE0qe.4226$q46.2078@newsfe1-win.ntli.net>, Stickems.
<URL:mailto:Stickems.@last.invalid> wrote:


> Be careful. I had a Mira a few years back, which packed up and has been 
> replaced by a non electric one. The cable to it was carrying 24 volt DC.


Nonsense as usual like all your antisocial postings.

-- 
AJL Electronics (G6FGO) Ltd         :  Satellite and TV aerial systems
http://www.classicmicrocars.co.uk   :  http://www.ajlelectronics.co.uk

        **   Would you like to learn to post effectively?      **
        **   http://www.allmyfaqs.com/faq.pl?How_to_post       **

Andrew Gabriel wrote:

> One that I recall vaguely, in 2003. (I can't find
> any record on the net anymore, but a news item was
> available at the time at http://tinyurl.com/r7k0
> which is another reason for not using short URLs.)
> The shower was professionally installed not that
> long before the incident. The victim had commented
> on getting electric shocks from it before, but
> didn't seem to have done anything about it.


Now where have I heard that before ... oh yes, someone who got electric 
shocks off a towel rail in the kitchen wasn't it.

Whatever next, padded walls in the building regulations.

Owain

Andrew Gabriel wrote:

> One that I recall vaguely, in 2003. (I can't find
> any record on the net anymore, but a news item was
> available at the time at http://tinyurl.com/r7k0
> which is another reason for not using short URLs.)
> The shower was professionally installed not that
> long before the incident. The victim had commented
> on getting electric shocks from it before, but
> didn't seem to have done anything about it.


Now where have I heard that before ... oh yes, someone who got electric 
shocks off a towel rail in the kitchen wasn't it.

Whatever next, padded walls in the building regulations.

Owain

"Peter Crosland"  wrote in message 
news:42a890f4$0$1708$ed2e19e4@ptn-nntp-reader04.plus.net...

>> My neighbour has a Mira electric shower that was in there when they moved 
>> 10years ago in and it is cattled, with a major leak.  He has decided that 
>> as he needs to replace the shower unit he may aswell redo the whole 
>> cubicle, tiles etc. which he has asked me to do for him.  I have no 
>> problem doing this but would like some advice.  The cable looks like 6mm 
>> to me, what's the biggest KW shower he can have on this cable, if it has 
>> any bearing the shower is on the first floor and the CU is in the  cellar 
>> (he doesn't really want to rip carpets and floorboards up to swap it!  I 
>> cannot see anything on the existing shower to indicate its KW.  Also with 
>> the new Part P regs, can I (legally) do this for him or do we need to get 
>> a 'proper' sparky in?
>
>
> It requires fitting and wiring by a competent person. Sorry to say it but 
> the fact that you have to ask demonstrates that you are not qualified to.


Totally disagree with that.  Knowing all the answers is not what it's about. 
Recognising the ISSUES, and then seeking the answers where appropriate, is.

Would you apply your thinking to, for instance, airline pilots and withdraw 
their written procedures manual which they use on every flight - on the 
grounds that they should know it all?  Or would you stop doctors checking up 
on alternative medicines on the same grounds?   I don't think so.

-- 
Martin

(Remove barrier to reply)

"bs"  wrote in message 
news:raGdnVu70PVsIzXfRVnyiQ@brightview.com...

>
>
> To answer the earlier question as to how many people have died in domestic 
> electrical horrors during the last year.....I heard on the radio that the 
> number over the last year was 5.
>
> Yes just 5.


And it would be more meaningful to have details of each of these 5.  Where 
they are caused by amateur sparkies?


> Now how much money did this new electrics scheme cost..............the 
> setting up.....the advertising......the training...
> the recruitment.....( jobs for the boys). How much time will qualified 
> electricians have to spend to get qualified again...and what will it cost 
> in courses. How many jobs were created for the trainers the manual writers 
> etc.
> A whole new industry has been spawned by the granny state at a massive 
> cost...............paid by who.............YES thats right
> US the taxpayers.More managers...managing issues that dont really exist.
>
> And to save 5 lives ?
>
> The cowboys will carry on as usual...........
> The gullible will beleive the propaganda and pay the higher prices for 
> their "qualified electrician"...just like "gatso speed cameras reduce 
> road accidents"..................so lets have some more.
>
> Its madness............
>
> First the plumbers
> Now the electricians
> Who next..................?????.............Bricklayers? Mechanics? Mini 
> cab drivers? Hospital cleaners??
> they can all kill you if they dont do their job right 
> ....................yes lets set up some more quangos.............more 
> jobs for the boys..more 
> knighthoods..................aggggggggggggggggh!!!!
>
> just dont let the facts cloud your judgement!!!
>


All very well said.

(and what exactly would they prefer us to die from anyway?)


-- 
Martin

(Remove barrier to reply)

A million times that cost or any cost is worth less than one life.


"bs"  wrote in message 
news:raGdnVu70PVsIzXfRVnyiQ@brightview.com...
|
|
| To answer the earlier question as to how many people have died in domestic
| electrical horrors during the last year.....I heard on the radio that the
| number over the last year was 5.
|
| Yes just 5.
|
| Now how much money did this new electrics scheme cost..............the
| setting up.....the advertising......the training...
| the recruitment.....( jobs for the boys). How much time will qualified
| electricians have to spend to get qualified again...and what will it cost 
in
| courses. How many jobs were created for the trainers the manual writers 
etc.
| A whole new industry has been spawned by the granny state at a massive
| cost...............paid by who.............YES thats right
| US the taxpayers.More managers...managing issues that dont really exist.
|
| And to save 5 lives ?
|
| The cowboys will carry on as usual...........
| The gullible will beleive the propaganda and pay the higher prices for 
their
| "qualified electrician"...just like "gatso speed cameras reduce  road
| accidents"..................so lets have some more.
|
| Its madness............
|
| First the plumbers
| Now the electricians
| Who next..................?????.............Bricklayers? Mechanics? Mini 
cab
| drivers? Hospital cleaners??
| they can all kill you if they dont do their job right
| ....................yes lets set up some more quangos.............more 
jobs
| for the boys..more knighthoods..................aggggggggggggggggh!!!!
|
| just dont let the facts cloud your judgement!!!
|
|
| Barry
|
|
|
|
|

"Peter Crosland"  wrote in message 
news:42a890f4$0$1708$ed2e19e4@ptn-nntp-reader04.plus.net...

>> My neighbour has a Mira electric shower that was in there when they moved 
>> 10years ago in and it is cattled, with a major leak.  He has decided that 
>> as he needs to replace the shower unit he may aswell redo the whole 
>> cubicle, tiles etc. which he has asked me to do for him.  I have no 
>> problem doing this but would like some advice.  The cable looks like 6mm 
>> to me, what's the biggest KW shower he can have on this cable, if it has 
>> any bearing the shower is on the first floor and the CU is in the  cellar 
>> (he doesn't really want to rip carpets and floorboards up to swap it!  I 
>> cannot see anything on the existing shower to indicate its KW.  Also with 
>> the new Part P regs, can I (legally) do this for him or do we need to get 
>> a 'proper' sparky in?
>
>
> It requires fitting and wiring by a competent person. Sorry to say it but 
> the fact that you have to ask demonstrates that you are not qualified to.


Totally disagree with that.  Knowing all the answers is not what it's about. 
Recognising the ISSUES, and then seeking the answers where appropriate, is.

Would you apply your thinking to, for instance, airline pilots and withdraw 
their written procedures manual which they use on every flight - on the 
grounds that they should know it all?  Or would you stop doctors checking up 
on alternative medicines on the same grounds?   I don't think so.

-- 
Martin

(Remove barrier to reply)

"bs"  wrote in message 
news:raGdnVu70PVsIzXfRVnyiQ@brightview.com...

>
>
> To answer the earlier question as to how many people have died in domestic 
> electrical horrors during the last year.....I heard on the radio that the 
> number over the last year was 5.
>
> Yes just 5.


And it would be more meaningful to have details of each of these 5.  Where 
they are caused by amateur sparkies?


> Now how much money did this new electrics scheme cost..............the 
> setting up.....the advertising......the training...
> the recruitment.....( jobs for the boys). How much time will qualified 
> electricians have to spend to get qualified again...and what will it cost 
> in courses. How many jobs were created for the trainers the manual writers 
> etc.
> A whole new industry has been spawned by the granny state at a massive 
> cost...............paid by who.............YES thats right
> US the taxpayers.More managers...managing issues that dont really exist.
>
> And to save 5 lives ?
>
> The cowboys will carry on as usual...........
> The gullible will beleive the propaganda and pay the higher prices for 
> their "qualified electrician"...just like "gatso speed cameras reduce 
> road accidents"..................so lets have some more.
>
> Its madness............
>
> First the plumbers
> Now the electricians
> Who next..................?????.............Bricklayers? Mechanics? Mini 
> cab drivers? Hospital cleaners??
> they can all kill you if they dont do their job right 
> ....................yes lets set up some more quangos.............more 
> jobs for the boys..more 
> knighthoods..................aggggggggggggggggh!!!!
>
> just dont let the facts cloud your judgement!!!
>


All very well said.

(and what exactly would they prefer us to die from anyway?)


-- 
Martin

(Remove barrier to reply)

A million times that cost or any cost is worth less than one life.


"bs"  wrote in message 
news:raGdnVu70PVsIzXfRVnyiQ@brightview.com...
|
|
| To answer the earlier question as to how many people have died in domestic
| electrical horrors during the last year.....I heard on the radio that the
| number over the last year was 5.
|
| Yes just 5.
|
| Now how much money did this new electrics scheme cost..............the
| setting up.....the advertising......the training...
| the recruitment.....( jobs for the boys). How much time will qualified
| electricians have to spend to get qualified again...and what will it cost 
in
| courses. How many jobs were created for the trainers the manual writers 
etc.
| A whole new industry has been spawned by the granny state at a massive
| cost...............paid by who.............YES thats right
| US the taxpayers.More managers...managing issues that dont really exist.
|
| And to save 5 lives ?
|
| The cowboys will carry on as usual...........
| The gullible will beleive the propaganda and pay the higher prices for 
their
| "qualified electrician"...just like "gatso speed cameras reduce  road
| accidents"..................so lets have some more.
|
| Its madness............
|
| First the plumbers
| Now the electricians
| Who next..................?????.............Bricklayers? Mechanics? Mini 
cab
| drivers? Hospital cleaners??
| they can all kill you if they dont do their job right
| ....................yes lets set up some more quangos.............more 
jobs
| for the boys..more knighthoods..................aggggggggggggggggh!!!!
|
| just dont let the facts cloud your judgement!!!
|
|
| Barry
|
|
|
|
|

"Stickems." <Stickems.@last.invalid> wrote in message 
news:CWdqe.15893$%21.4264@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net...

>A million times that cost or any cost is worth less than one life.



What - the old "Safety at any price" argument?

That's a naive, dangerous and fundamentlly flawed argument, and as such is 
complete bollox.



-- 
Richard Sampson

mail me at
richard at olifant d-ot co do-t uk

"Martin"  wrote in message 
news:mWdqe.6442$K5.6408@newsfe4-win.ntli.net...

>
> "Peter Crosland"  wrote in message 
> news:42a890f4$0$1708$ed2e19e4@ptn-nntp-reader04.plus.net...
>>> My neighbour has a Mira electric shower that was in there when they 
>>> moved 10years ago in and it is cattled, with a major leak.  He has 
>>> decided that as he needs to replace the shower unit he may aswell redo 
>>> the whole cubicle, tiles etc. which he has asked me to do for him.  I 
>>> have no problem doing this but would like some advice.  The cable looks 
>>> like 6mm to me, what's the biggest KW shower he can have on this cable, 
>>> if it has any bearing the shower is on the first floor and the CU is in 
>>> the  cellar (he doesn't really want to rip carpets and floorboards up to 
>>> swap it!  I cannot see anything on the existing shower to indicate its 
>>> KW.  Also with the new Part P regs, can I (legally) do this for him or 
>>> do we need to get a 'proper' sparky in?
>>
>>
>> It requires fitting and wiring by a competent person. Sorry to say it but 
>> the fact that you have to ask demonstrates that you are not qualified to.
>
> Totally disagree with that.  Knowing all the answers is not what it's 
> about. Recognising the ISSUES, and then seeking the answers where 
> appropriate, is.
>
> Would you apply your thinking to, for instance, airline pilots and 
> withdraw their written procedures manual which they use on every flight - 
> on the grounds that they should know it all?  Or would you stop doctors 
> checking up on alternative medicines on the same grounds?   I don't think 
> so.


I couldn't agree more with that. The fact that someone has to seek advice 
prior to commencing a job does not mean that he is not competent to do it - 
merely that he requires further information in order to do it properly. I've 
said it before and I'll say it again - in the vast majority of cases, a keen 
diy'er will produce a far superior job to most 'professionals'.  I could 
fill a book with the slipshod work that has been carried out for me and 
friends/relatives over the years by so-called professional, garage 
mechanics, tow-bar fitters, kitchen installers, tilers, laminate flooring 
installers, etc. There *are* some perfectionist professionals out there - 
but sadly they are few and far between!

Kev

"Stickems." <Stickems.@last.invalid> wrote in message 
news:CWdqe.15893$%21.4264@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net...

>A million times that cost or any cost is worth less than one life.



What - the old "Safety at any price" argument?

That's a naive, dangerous and fundamentlly flawed argument, and as such is 
complete bollox.



-- 
Richard Sampson

mail me at
richard at olifant d-ot co do-t uk

"Martin"  wrote in message 
news:mWdqe.6442$K5.6408@newsfe4-win.ntli.net...

>
> "Peter Crosland"  wrote in message 
> news:42a890f4$0$1708$ed2e19e4@ptn-nntp-reader04.plus.net...
>>> My neighbour has a Mira electric shower that was in there when they 
>>> moved 10years ago in and it is cattled, with a major leak.  He has 
>>> decided that as he needs to replace the shower unit he may aswell redo 
>>> the whole cubicle, tiles etc. which he has asked me to do for him.  I 
>>> have no problem doing this but would like some advice.  The cable looks 
>>> like 6mm to me, what's the biggest KW shower he can have on this cable, 
>>> if it has any bearing the shower is on the first floor and the CU is in 
>>> the  cellar (he doesn't really want to rip carpets and floorboards up to 
>>> swap it!  I cannot see anything on the existing shower to indicate its 
>>> KW.  Also with the new Part P regs, can I (legally) do this for him or 
>>> do we need to get a 'proper' sparky in?
>>
>>
>> It requires fitting and wiring by a competent person. Sorry to say it but 
>> the fact that you have to ask demonstrates that you are not qualified to.
>
> Totally disagree with that.  Knowing all the answers is not what it's 
> about. Recognising the ISSUES, and then seeking the answers where 
> appropriate, is.
>
> Would you apply your thinking to, for instance, airline pilots and 
> withdraw their written procedures manual which they use on every flight - 
> on the grounds that they should know it all?  Or would you stop doctors 
> checking up on alternative medicines on the same grounds?   I don't think 
> so.


I couldn't agree more with that. The fact that someone has to seek advice 
prior to commencing a job does not mean that he is not competent to do it - 
merely that he requires further information in order to do it properly. I've 
said it before and I'll say it again - in the vast majority of cases, a keen 
diy'er will produce a far superior job to most 'professionals'.  I could 
fill a book with the slipshod work that has been carried out for me and 
friends/relatives over the years by so-called professional, garage 
mechanics, tow-bar fitters, kitchen installers, tilers, laminate flooring 
installers, etc. There *are* some perfectionist professionals out there - 
but sadly they are few and far between!

Kev

On 10 Jun,  
     OldBill  wrote:


> shazzbat wrote:

> > Old saying I heard some years ago -  The Titanic was built by
> > professionals, Noah's ark was built by amateurs.
> The Titantic may well have been built by pros, but it was driven by a fool


And designed by accountants.

-- 
  B Thumbs
  Change lycos to yahoo to reply

On 10 Jun,  
     OldBill  wrote:


> shazzbat wrote:

> > Old saying I heard some years ago -  The Titanic was built by
> > professionals, Noah's ark was built by amateurs.
> The Titantic may well have been built by pros, but it was driven by a fool


And designed by accountants.

-- 
  B Thumbs
  Change lycos to yahoo to reply

In article , RichardS
<URL:mailto:noone@invalid.invalid> wrote:


> 
> What - the old "Safety at any price" argument?
> 
> That's a naive, dangerous and fundamentlly flawed argument, and as such is 
> complete bollox.


From an unrepentant "upside-downer". What else can you expect?

-- 
AJL Electronics (G6FGO) Ltd         :  Satellite and TV aerial systems
http://www.classicmicrocars.co.uk   :  http://www.ajlelectronics.co.uk

In article , RichardS
<URL:mailto:noone@invalid.invalid> wrote:


> 
> What - the old "Safety at any price" argument?
> 
> That's a naive, dangerous and fundamentlly flawed argument, and as such is 
> complete bollox.


From an unrepentant "upside-downer". What else can you expect?

-- 
AJL Electronics (G6FGO) Ltd         :  Satellite and TV aerial systems
http://www.classicmicrocars.co.uk   :  http://www.ajlelectronics.co.uk

SNIP


> > But it was still claimed by the builders to be 'unsinkable' !!
> >
> > Kev
> >
> But she would have been un-sinkable if it hadn't been for the un-trained
> people leaving all the water-tight doors open.
>
>


AIUI there were gaps at the top of the bulkheads allowing one flooded
compartment to overflow into the next, and so  on.

Steve

SNIP


> > But it was still claimed by the builders to be 'unsinkable' !!
> >
> > Kev
> >
> But she would have been un-sinkable if it hadn't been for the un-trained
> people leaving all the water-tight doors open.
>
>


AIUI there were gaps at the top of the bulkheads allowing one flooded
compartment to overflow into the next, and so  on.

Steve

-- 


---------------------------------------------------------------------


"Stickems." <Stickems.@last.invalid> wrote in message 
news:CWdqe.15893$%21.4264@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net...

>A million times that cost or any cost is worth less than one life.
>

-----------------------------------------------



>A million times that cost or any cost is worth less than one life.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Well I'm glad your not running the country.Lets say the whole thing cost 30
million to set up and fund.
30 million times a million is .....er well it a lot. (name that number
please )
 AND Any cost??........You did say "any cost.".??????.............is worth
less than one life.


An interesting economic model.
And we are talking taxpayers money here...........and if you had your way a
bust economy.

food for thought

Barry

-- 


---------------------------------------------------------------------


"Stickems." <Stickems.@last.invalid> wrote in message 
news:CWdqe.15893$%21.4264@newsfe2-gui.ntli.net...

>A million times that cost or any cost is worth less than one life.
>

-----------------------------------------------



>A million times that cost or any cost is worth less than one life.


-----------------------------------------------------------------------

Well I'm glad your not running the country.Lets say the whole thing cost 30
million to set up and fund.
30 million times a million is .....er well it a lot. (name that number
please )
 AND Any cost??........You did say "any cost.".??????.............is worth
less than one life.


An interesting economic model.
And we are talking taxpayers money here...........and if you had your way a
bust economy.

food for thought

Barry

John wrote:


> I am not aware of ANY electrocutions from showers but you may know of 
> different statistics? Apparently the figure of five lethal incidents per 
> year from all electrical work is currently being accepted but no-one seems 
> to be able to breakdown this figure into shocks from appliances/defective 
> flexes/fixed equipment. The chances are very much that portable appliances 
> and flexes are the real culprits
> 

Nah. The figure of 5 is deaths/year from *fixed* wiring; the equipment 
(portable and non-portable) ones account for another 14 deaths/year. 
Accidents scale similarly: 576 non-fatal from fixed wiring, 1700 
non-fatal from equipment. These numbers are over at
   http://www.rospa.com/productsafety/articles/domestic_electrical.htm
Prescott's own department admitted it loused up by using the 
all-electrical figures - themselves remarkably low - rather than the 
ones relating only to fixed wiring. That admission is buried over at
http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/groups/odpm_buildreg/documents/page/odpm_breg_023509-06.hcsp
that's all one line - if your browser wraps it, rebuild it). It uses 
figues of 2.6 deaths and 447 accidents - I don't know where the 
discrepancy of 5 vs 2.6 comes from.

Stefek

John wrote:


> I am not aware of ANY electrocutions from showers but you may know of 
> different statistics? Apparently the figure of five lethal incidents per 
> year from all electrical work is currently being accepted but no-one seems 
> to be able to breakdown this figure into shocks from appliances/defective 
> flexes/fixed equipment. The chances are very much that portable appliances 
> and flexes are the real culprits
> 

Nah. The figure of 5 is deaths/year from *fixed* wiring; the equipment 
(portable and non-portable) ones account for another 14 deaths/year. 
Accidents scale similarly: 576 non-fatal from fixed wiring, 1700 
non-fatal from equipment. These numbers are over at
   http://www.rospa.com/productsafety/articles/domestic_electrical.htm
Prescott's own department admitted it loused up by using the 
all-electrical figures - themselves remarkably low - rather than the 
ones relating only to fixed wiring. That admission is buried over at
http://www.odpm.gov.uk/stellent/groups/odpm_buildreg/documents/page/odpm_breg_023509-06.hcsp
that's all one line - if your browser wraps it, rebuild it). It uses 
figues of 2.6 deaths and 447 accidents - I don't know where the 
discrepancy of 5 vs 2.6 comes from.

Stefek

>> It requires fitting and wiring by a competent person. Sorry to say it but 
>> the fact that you have to ask demonstrates that you are not qualified to.
>
> Totally disagree with that.  Knowing all the answers is not what it's 
> about. Recognising the ISSUES, and then seeking the answers where 
> appropriate, is.
>
> Would you apply your thinking to, for instance, airline pilots and 
> withdraw their written procedures manual which they use on every flight - 
> on the grounds that they should know it all?  Or would you stop doctors 
> checking up on alternative medicines on the same grounds?   I don't think 
> so.



No I would not. But the way the question was worded and indeed that it was 
asked just emphasises that the OP does not understand the issues or the 
answers.

Peter Crosland

>> It requires fitting and wiring by a competent person. Sorry to say it but 
>> the fact that you have to ask demonstrates that you are not qualified to.
>
> Totally disagree with that.  Knowing all the answers is not what it's 
> about. Recognising the ISSUES, and then seeking the answers where 
> appropriate, is.
>
> Would you apply your thinking to, for instance, airline pilots and 
> withdraw their written procedures manual which they use on every flight - 
> on the grounds that they should know it all?  Or would you stop doctors 
> checking up on alternative medicines on the same grounds?   I don't think 
> so.



No I would not. But the way the question was worded and indeed that it was 
asked just emphasises that the OP does not understand the issues or the 
answers.

Peter Crosland

"shazzbat"  wrote in message 
news:d8c2o2$1u0$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...

>
> SNIP
>
>> > But it was still claimed by the builders to be 'unsinkable' !!
>> >
>> > Kev
>> >
>> But she would have been un-sinkable if it hadn't been for the un-trained
>> people leaving all the water-tight doors open.
>>
>>
>
> AIUI there were gaps at the top of the bulkheads allowing one flooded
> compartment to overflow into the next, and so  on.
>


And surely the professionals would have been responsible for ensuring that 
those who left the doors open were trained. ;o)
-- 
Keith Willcocks
(If you can't laugh at life, it ain't worth living!)

"shazzbat"  wrote in message 
news:d8c2o2$1u0$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk...

>
> SNIP
>
>> > But it was still claimed by the builders to be 'unsinkable' !!
>> >
>> > Kev
>> >
>> But she would have been un-sinkable if it hadn't been for the un-trained
>> people leaving all the water-tight doors open.
>>
>>
>
> AIUI there were gaps at the top of the bulkheads allowing one flooded
> compartment to overflow into the next, and so  on.
>


And surely the professionals would have been responsible for ensuring that 
those who left the doors open were trained. ;o)
-- 
Keith Willcocks
(If you can't laugh at life, it ain't worth living!)

wrote in message news:4D78CA96BE%brian13434@lycos.co.uk...

> On 10 Jun,
>     OldBill  wrote:
>
>> shazzbat wrote:
>
>> > Old saying I heard some years ago -  The Titanic was built by
>> > professionals, Noah's ark was built by amateurs.
>> The Titantic may well have been built by pros, but it was driven by a 
>> fool
>
> And designed by accountants.
>


Surely the Captain would have been a professional fool!
-- 
Keith Willcocks
(If you can't laugh at life, it ain't worth living!)

"BigWallop"  wrote in message 
news:L64qe.48082$G8.10555@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...

>
> "shazzbat"  wrote in message
> news:d8aihb$k3s$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
>>
>> "Martin Evans"  wrote in message
>> news:9biha1ls2847b559mr71ca2eeu3e7q42gm@4ax.com...
>> > John_ZIZinvalid <nospamZAZinvalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> >
>> > >On Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:30:52 +0000 (UTC), "John"
>> > > wrote:
>> > >
>> > >Yes. It is a totally hopeless law, an electrician can install
>> > >electrics in public\commercial\industrial properties, which
>> > >can involve showers, baths, chemicals, gases, high pressure
>> > >boilers, even outdoor electrical supplies in public areas such
>> > >as a busy town centre.
>> > >But yet cannot install anything in a domestic property.
>> >
>> > Would someone in an appropriate position see fit to doing a seriously
>> > dodgy wiring job somewhere two jags might frequent. Obviously his
>> > house is off limits but anywhere else is fair game.
>> >
>> > ;-)
>>
>>
>> If I thought that that useless bastard was going to show up, I'd wire up
> the
>> fridge door to the mains.
>>
>>
> That would make a real earth of him.  :-)  Well, he's been making an earth
> of us for long enough, hasn't he?


Let's be honest.  He was over promoted when he was a cabin boy ;o)
-- 
Keith Willcocks
(If you can't laugh at life, it ain't worth living!)

wrote in message news:4D78CA96BE%brian13434@lycos.co.uk...

> On 10 Jun,
>     OldBill  wrote:
>
>> shazzbat wrote:
>
>> > Old saying I heard some years ago -  The Titanic was built by
>> > professionals, Noah's ark was built by amateurs.
>> The Titantic may well have been built by pros, but it was driven by a 
>> fool
>
> And designed by accountants.
>


Surely the Captain would have been a professional fool!
-- 
Keith Willcocks
(If you can't laugh at life, it ain't worth living!)

"BigWallop"  wrote in message 
news:L64qe.48082$G8.10555@text.news.blueyonder.co.uk...

>
> "shazzbat"  wrote in message
> news:d8aihb$k3s$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk...
>>
>> "Martin Evans"  wrote in message
>> news:9biha1ls2847b559mr71ca2eeu3e7q42gm@4ax.com...
>> > John_ZIZinvalid <nospamZAZinvalid@invalid.invalid> wrote:
>> >
>> > >On Thu, 9 Jun 2005 19:30:52 +0000 (UTC), "John"
>> > > wrote:
>> > >
>> > >Yes. It is a totally hopeless law, an electrician can install
>> > >electrics in public\commercial\industrial properties, which
>> > >can involve showers, baths, chemicals, gases, high pressure
>> > >boilers, even outdoor electrical supplies in public areas such
>> > >as a busy town centre.
>> > >But yet cannot install anything in a domestic property.
>> >
>> > Would someone in an appropriate position see fit to doing a seriously
>> > dodgy wiring job somewhere two jags might frequent. Obviously his
>> > house is off limits but anywhere else is fair game.
>> >
>> > ;-)
>>
>>
>> If I thought that that useless bastard was going to show up, I'd wire up
> the
>> fridge door to the mains.
>>
>>
> That would make a real earth of him.  :-)  Well, he's been making an earth
> of us for long enough, hasn't he?


Let's be honest.  He was over promoted when he was a cabin boy ;o)
-- 
Keith Willcocks
(If you can't laugh at life, it ain't worth living!)

It requires fitting and wiring by a competent person. Sorry to say it
but
the fact that you have to ask demonstrates that you are not qualified
to.

This is self evident  - but having asked the question and gathered the
necessary information then one is then better qualified than before -
which is also self evident.


I just installed a new Gainsborough 9.5kw shower in my new bathroom -
following the useful instructions on the packet and having studied
postings on this group. Nobody dead yet but we are all lovely and
clean!
As a matter of interest does anyone know what the showerer would
experience if there was a major failure sufficient to trip the RCD?

It requires fitting and wiring by a competent person. Sorry to say it
but
the fact that you have to ask demonstrates that you are not qualified
to.

This is self evident  - but having asked the question and gathered the
necessary information then one is then better qualified than before -
which is also self evident.


I just installed a new Gainsborough 9.5kw shower in my new bathroom -
following the useful instructions on the packet and having studied
postings on this group. Nobody dead yet but we are all lovely and
clean!
As a matter of interest does anyone know what the showerer would
experience if there was a major failure sufficient to trip the RCD?

wrote in message 
news:1118512659.750686.211350@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...

> It requires fitting and wiring by a competent person. Sorry to say it
> but
> the fact that you have to ask demonstrates that you are not qualified
> to.
>
> This is self evident  - but having asked the question and gathered the
> necessary information then one is then better qualified than before -
> which is also self evident.
>
>
> I just installed a new Gainsborough 9.5kw shower in my new bathroom -
> following the useful instructions on the packet and having studied
> postings on this group. Nobody dead yet but we are all lovely and
> clean!
> As a matter of interest does anyone know what the showerer would
> experience if there was a major failure sufficient to trip the RCD?


A shower of sparks ??? !!!

Kev

wrote in message 
news:1118512659.750686.211350@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...

> It requires fitting and wiring by a competent person. Sorry to say it
> but
> the fact that you have to ask demonstrates that you are not qualified
> to.
>
> This is self evident  - but having asked the question and gathered the
> necessary information then one is then better qualified than before -
> which is also self evident.
>
>
> I just installed a new Gainsborough 9.5kw shower in my new bathroom -
> following the useful instructions on the packet and having studied
> postings on this group. Nobody dead yet but we are all lovely and
> clean!
> As a matter of interest does anyone know what the showerer would
> experience if there was a major failure sufficient to trip the RCD?


A shower of sparks ??? !!!

Kev

On 11 Jun 2005 10:57:39 -0700, jacob@jpbutler.demon.co.uk wrote:

[snip]


>As a matter of interest does anyone know what the showerer would
>experience if there was a major failure sufficient to trip the RCD?


It depends on the path the leakage current took.
All the electric showers I have seen use a metal heating chamber that
is *well* bonded to the earth wire, and the metal pipework is probably
well earthed too, thus, if the failure occurred inside the shower unit
they would probably just experience a 'click' noise followed by either
no water or cold water, depending on the unit. If for some hideously
unfortunate reason the current went through the shower head, or
through their body by some other means [maybe faulty control
switches], RCDs aren't required to trip before 0.4 seconds at or even
way _above_ their rated tripping current, so I wouldn't want to be
them particularly.

-- 
I think computer viruses should count as life. I think it
says something about human nature that the only form of
life we have created so far is purely destructive. We've
created life in our own image. - Stephen Hawking

Chipmunk wrote:


> ....... RCDs aren't required to trip before 0.4 seconds at or even
> way _above_ their rated tripping current, so I wouldn't want to be
> them particularly.
> 


(All together now) Oh Yes They Are ;-)

According to the On-Site Guide, itself referring to Reg 713-13-01, the 
specs for an RCD spec'd to provide supplementary protection and with a 
nominal operating current of 30mA or less - and it's overwhelmingly 
likely that this is the spec a dedicated RCD will be made to - are that 
it opens in under 40ms - that's just two full mains cycles - for a 
current of 5 times nominal. And the trip times for other RCDs are to 
trip within 300ms, rather'n 400ms.

Nevertheless, your main point stands - sloppy installation practices 
can't be justified with an 'it's OK, it's all on an RCD which will pop 
if anything goes wrong'. Apart from anything else, RCDs don't mind at 
all if you cause an L to N flow from one hand to the other...

Stefek

On Sat, 11 Jun 2005 22:19:33 +0100, Stefek Zaba
 wrote:


>Chipmunk wrote:
>
>> ....... RCDs aren't required to trip before 0.4 seconds at or even
>> way _above_ their rated tripping current, so I wouldn't want to be
>> them particularly.
>> 
>
>(All together now) Oh Yes They Are ;-)
>
>According to the On-Site Guide, itself referring to Reg 713-13-01, the 
>specs for an RCD spec'd to provide supplementary protection and with a 
>nominal operating current of 30mA or less - and it's overwhelmingly 
>likely that this is the spec a dedicated RCD will be made to - are that 
>it opens in under 40ms - that's just two full mains cycles - for a 
>current of 5 times nominal. And the trip times for other RCDs are to 
>trip within 300ms, rather'n 400ms.
>
>Nevertheless, your main point stands - sloppy installation practices 
>can't be justified with an 'it's OK, it's all on an RCD which will pop 
>if anything goes wrong'. Apart from anything else, RCDs don't mind at 
>all if you cause an L to N flow from one hand to the other...
>
>Stefek


I stand corrected, eek I misplaced the decimal point. I plead ...
umm.. braincell recycling due to being out of the UK for 5 years:-)

Yes, the 40ms for 'circuits supplying portable appliances' and 300ms
for 'fixed appliances and wiring' sounds familiar. 

Still, even 10mA leakage if I was in a shower would scare me.

-- 
I think computer viruses should count as life. I think it
says something about human nature that the only form of
life we have created so far is purely destructive. We've
created life in our own image. - Stephen Hawking

In message ,
  Chipmunk  wrote:


> RCDs aren't required to trip before 0.4 seconds at or even way _above_
> their rated tripping current, so I wouldn't want to be them
> particularly.
> 


30mA RCDs used as supplementary protection (the usual domestic sort) are
required to trip in 0.04 seconds (40ms) at 5xrated current. See for
example BS7671 412-06-02(ii). Although not specified in BS7671 I believe
that the BS/EN for RCDs determines that the trip time at rated current
should be no more than 200ms (0.2s).

Hwyl!

M.

-- 
Martin Angove: http://www.tridwr.demon.co.uk/
Two free issues: http://www.livtech.co.uk/ Living With Technology
.... --T-A+G-L-I+N-E--+M-E-A+S-U-R+I-N-G+--G-A+U-G-E--

Chipmunk wrote:


> Yes, the 40ms for 'circuits supplying portable appliances' and 300ms
> for 'fixed appliances and wiring' sounds familiar. 


I think you may be thinking of the required EEBADs disconnection times 
of under 0.4 for portabel appliances and 5 seconds for fixed. RCDs are 
supposed to be a whole lot quicker (unless time delayed!)


-- 
Cheers,

John.

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