I have just had a repairman tell me that my self-installed standpipe is too
low and causes the washing machine to stick on  a fill-cycle.
His explanation, which was obviously what he has been taught, is that the
water enters the machine, fills the drainpipe at the back, which rises to
reach into the standpipe, and as soon as it reaches the top of the drain, it
spills over and starts 'siphoning' - which he immediately associated with
siphoning petrol ("not that I have ever done that" he pointed out)
My problem is - the fault is very interrmittent.  On a rinse- cycle it lets
water in, and as soon as the level/pressure is great enough, it should stop
the intake, and move on to the next cycle.  When the fault occurs, the drum
does not even start to fill before the water is escaping down the standpipe,
and it keeps on like that for hours, or until it is knocked-on.
For the water to reach the top of the standpipe to spill-over, there has to
be pressure behind it, and if the drum level is low or empty, that pressure
can only come from the inlet, and assumes that something is stopping the
inflow from getting to the drum, so it carries on to the outlet.
He tried to 'fix' the  fault by raising the U-bend over the standpipe from
the recommended minimum (60cm) to 85cm - near the maximum of 90cm - just
under the worksurface, saying that he was confident that would do it. 
On the first test, it was still spilling over, so he told me that it was
probably because it was still too low, and it was all the fault of the
'installation' of the standpipe (ie not his problem). If I replaced the
standpipe with a longer one, it would cure it.  I tried to get him to
explain the difference between raising the drainpipe as he had done, and
increasing the height of the standpipe, and he tried to tell me all about
siphoning again.
Young folk today!
He was also careful to get me to sign his paperwork _before_ filling in what
he had done (I didn't notice the blanks) so that "standpipe to low" (sic)
went in after I had signed! Damn! 
Also there was a blank box saying "tick this box if you don't want your
details passed to third parties" double-damn!

Having had many a battle with washing machines over the years this is a very
common one.

It seems from what you are saying that your 'water full' level sensor is
never getting a triggered. This is because the water is not getting high
enough.

He is partially right about the outlet pipe being between 75 and 115cm above
the floor level. This should be as directly up as possible from the outlet
port of the washing machine and then form a neat 10cm 'U' into the waste
pipe.

The reason for this requiremnt is that the non return valve will not operate
properly unless there is enough reverse flow from the outlet pipe. At 90cm
this should be enough. I have seen problems at as high as 65cm and longer
pipes that are not a dead straight right angle to the ground.

Anyway this 'return flow' pressure as we can call it helps float and keep in
place a large plastic ball. This is contained within the big rubber boot
mounted at the lowest point on the outer drum. Best way of finding this is
to tip your machine totally upside down.
When there is enough water and reverse flow pressure in the boot the ball
raises and stays in place against a integral seal.

I would take this boot off (it is a very easy job) and just look inside and
see if there is any material knocking around in there. It should be pretty
clean. Any forgien objects will get between the plastic ball and seal and
make this leak. Hence constant filling!!!

Hope this has helped.

Regards
G



"Costick"  wrote in message
news:74ib819kksdarc80sldvthjc9o21tivo1c@4ax.com...

> I have just had a repairman tell me that my self-installed standpipe is
too
> low and causes the washing machine to stick on  a fill-cycle.
> His explanation, which was obviously what he has been taught, is that the
> water enters the machine, fills the drainpipe at the back, which rises to
> reach into the standpipe, and as soon as it reaches the top of the drain,
it
> spills over and starts 'siphoning' - which he immediately associated with
> siphoning petrol ("not that I have ever done that" he pointed out)
> My problem is - the fault is very interrmittent.  On a rinse- cycle it
lets
> water in, and as soon as the level/pressure is great enough, it should
stop
> the intake, and move on to the next cycle.  When the fault occurs, the
drum
> does not even start to fill before the water is escaping down the
standpipe,
> and it keeps on like that for hours, or until it is knocked-on.
> For the water to reach the top of the standpipe to spill-over, there has
to
> be pressure behind it, and if the drum level is low or empty, that
pressure
> can only come from the inlet, and assumes that something is stopping the
> inflow from getting to the drum, so it carries on to the outlet.
> He tried to 'fix' the  fault by raising the U-bend over the standpipe from
> the recommended minimum (60cm) to 85cm - near the maximum of 90cm - just
> under the worksurface, saying that he was confident that would do it.
> On the first test, it was still spilling over, so he told me that it was
> probably because it was still too low, and it was all the fault of the
> 'installation' of the standpipe (ie not his problem). If I replaced the
> standpipe with a longer one, it would cure it.  I tried to get him to
> explain the difference between raising the drainpipe as he had done, and
> increasing the height of the standpipe, and he tried to tell me all about
> siphoning again.
> Young folk today!
> He was also careful to get me to sign his paperwork _before_ filling in
what
> he had done (I didn't notice the blanks) so that "standpipe to low" (sic)
> went in after I had signed! Damn!
> Also there was a blank box saying "tick this box if you don't want your
> details passed to third parties" double-damn!
>

G Cadman  said 

>Having had many a battle with washing machines over the years this is a very
>common one.
>
>It seems from what you are saying that your 'water full' level sensor is
>never getting a triggered. This is because the water is not getting high
>enough.
>
>He is partially right about the outlet pipe being between 75 and 115cm above
>the floor level. This should be as directly up as possible from the outlet
>port of the washing machine and then form a neat 10cm 'U' into the waste
>pipe.
>
>The reason for this requiremnt is that the non return valve will not operate
>properly unless there is enough reverse flow from the outlet pipe. At 90cm
>this should be enough. I have seen problems at as high as 65cm and longer
>pipes that are not a dead straight right angle to the ground.
>
>Anyway this 'return flow' pressure as we can call it helps float and keep in
>place a large plastic ball. This is contained within the big rubber boot
>mounted at the lowest point on the outer drum. Best way of finding this is
>to tip your machine totally upside down.
>When there is enough water and reverse flow pressure in the boot the ball
>raises and stays in place against a integral seal.
>
>I would take this boot off (it is a very easy job) and just look inside and
>see if there is any material knocking around in there. It should be pretty
>clean. Any forgien objects will get between the plastic ball and seal and
>make this leak. Hence constant filling!!!
>
>Hope this has helped.
>
>Regards
>G



As soon as my wife has finished swearing at it, I will take a look.   
Your explanation sounds more plausible than the repairman's. I can't get my
head around the concept of an uphill siphon!  The standpipe/U-bend is
definitely higher than the level in the drum, and I was wondering how it
escapes in this way.
It sounds as if this part (the plastic ball) is rather crucial. I had better
be careful while the machine is still under warranty, especially if it means
turning the machine _totally_ upside-down. I think I may just tilt it for a
first look. 

 It means a lot to me to know about these things.
Thanks.

I suppose the only other thing to check is that your waste pipe is not
partially blocked. i.e. the the waste water can actually flow away from the
washing machine at a decent rate. If the water is backing up say the a head
greater than 20cm above floor level then I guess you may have a blockage or
restricted flow.

A good test is to use the rinse cycle to test this.
Form your usually 90cm peaked u with your waste pipe but drop the end into a
standard bucket. Keep the tip of the waste pipe out of the water throughout
this test. The washing machine should fill up and empty (into the bucket) as
normal within this rinse cycle. If your machine continues to try and fill
the washing machine must be faulty, if it operates normally then you have a
waste pipe problem. That will also provide you with sufficient ammo to call
the repair people in again as it will prove the functionality of your waste
pipe.

This test reuires no interferance with the machine so as not invalidating
your warrenty.

When I last did this the washing machine only fills the bucket half full
with a rinse cycle, which I thought was a small amount of water but is
correct.

Regards
G.

"Costick"  wrote in message
news:q8qc819f87hbp85q93o04cr88gokba4bjq@4ax.com...

> G Cadman  said
> >Having had many a battle with washing machines over the years this is a
very
> >common one.
> >
> >It seems from what you are saying that your 'water full' level sensor is
> >never getting a triggered. This is because the water is not getting high
> >enough.
> >
> >He is partially right about the outlet pipe being between 75 and 115cm
above
> >the floor level. This should be as directly up as possible from the
outlet
> >port of the washing machine and then form a neat 10cm 'U' into the waste
> >pipe.
> >
> >The reason for this requiremnt is that the non return valve will not
operate
> >properly unless there is enough reverse flow from the outlet pipe. At
90cm
> >this should be enough. I have seen problems at as high as 65cm and longer
> >pipes that are not a dead straight right angle to the ground.
> >
> >Anyway this 'return flow' pressure as we can call it helps float and keep
in
> >place a large plastic ball. This is contained within the big rubber boot
> >mounted at the lowest point on the outer drum. Best way of finding this
is
> >to tip your machine totally upside down.
> >When there is enough water and reverse flow pressure in the boot the ball
> >raises and stays in place against a integral seal.
> >
> >I would take this boot off (it is a very easy job) and just look inside
and
> >see if there is any material knocking around in there. It should be
pretty
> >clean. Any forgien objects will get between the plastic ball and seal and
> >make this leak. Hence constant filling!!!
> >
> >Hope this has helped.
> >
> >Regards
> >G
>
>
> As soon as my wife has finished swearing at it, I will take a look.
> Your explanation sounds more plausible than the repairman's. I can't get
my
> head around the concept of an uphill siphon!  The standpipe/U-bend is
> definitely higher than the level in the drum, and I was wondering how it
> escapes in this way.
> It sounds as if this part (the plastic ball) is rather crucial. I had
better
> be careful while the machine is still under warranty, especially if it
means
> turning the machine _totally_ upside-down. I think I may just tilt it for
a
> first look.
>
>  It means a lot to me to know about these things.
> Thanks.

As an aside you may wish to buy the haynes manual on Washing machines.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1859603270/qid=1116158682/sr=8-13/r
ef=pd_ka_12/202-3225944-4879855

If your have ever used one for a car you will know how useful it is.
Amusingly they are also doing one for women!


"Costick"  wrote in message
news:q8qc819f87hbp85q93o04cr88gokba4bjq@4ax.com...

> G Cadman  said
> >Having had many a battle with washing machines over the years this is a
very
> >common one.
> >
> >It seems from what you are saying that your 'water full' level sensor is
> >never getting a triggered. This is because the water is not getting high
> >enough.
> >
> >He is partially right about the outlet pipe being between 75 and 115cm
above
> >the floor level. This should be as directly up as possible from the
outlet
> >port of the washing machine and then form a neat 10cm 'U' into the waste
> >pipe.
> >
> >The reason for this requiremnt is that the non return valve will not
operate
> >properly unless there is enough reverse flow from the outlet pipe. At
90cm
> >this should be enough. I have seen problems at as high as 65cm and longer
> >pipes that are not a dead straight right angle to the ground.
> >
> >Anyway this 'return flow' pressure as we can call it helps float and keep
in
> >place a large plastic ball. This is contained within the big rubber boot
> >mounted at the lowest point on the outer drum. Best way of finding this
is
> >to tip your machine totally upside down.
> >When there is enough water and reverse flow pressure in the boot the ball
> >raises and stays in place against a integral seal.
> >
> >I would take this boot off (it is a very easy job) and just look inside
and
> >see if there is any material knocking around in there. It should be
pretty
> >clean. Any forgien objects will get between the plastic ball and seal and
> >make this leak. Hence constant filling!!!
> >
> >Hope this has helped.
> >
> >Regards
> >G
>
>
> As soon as my wife has finished swearing at it, I will take a look.
> Your explanation sounds more plausible than the repairman's. I can't get
my
> head around the concept of an uphill siphon!  The standpipe/U-bend is
> definitely higher than the level in the drum, and I was wondering how it
> escapes in this way.
> It sounds as if this part (the plastic ball) is rather crucial. I had
better
> be careful while the machine is still under warranty, especially if it
means
> turning the machine _totally_ upside-down. I think I may just tilt it for
a
> first look.
>
>  It means a lot to me to know about these things.
> Thanks.

> Having had many a battle with washing machines over the years this is a
very
> common one.
>
> It seems from what you are saying that your 'water full' level sensor is
> never getting a triggered. This is because the water is not getting high
> enough.
>
> He is partially right about the outlet pipe being between 75 and 115cm
above
> the floor level. This should be as directly up as possible from the outlet
> port of the washing machine and then form a neat 10cm 'U' into the waste
> pipe.
>
> The reason for this requiremnt is that the non return valve will not
operate
> properly unless there is enough reverse flow from the outlet pipe. At 90cm
> this should be enough. I have seen problems at as high as 65cm and longer
> pipes that are not a dead straight right angle to the ground.
>
> Anyway this 'return flow' pressure as we can call it helps float and keep
in
> place a large plastic ball. This is contained within the big rubber boot
> mounted at the lowest point on the outer drum. Best way of finding this is
> to tip your machine totally upside down.
> When there is enough water and reverse flow pressure in the boot the ball
> raises and stays in place against a integral seal.
>
> I would take this boot off (it is a very easy job) and just look inside
and
> see if there is any material knocking around in there. It should be pretty
> clean. Any forgien objects will get between the plastic ball and seal and
> make this leak. Hence constant filling!!!
>
> Hope this has helped.
>
> Regards
> G


No the engineer will be correct the machine is syphoning. The eco ball in
the sump (i dont think this model has one anyway) does not seal the water
in, its to prevent the detergent from being wasted down the sump.

Peter

G Cadman  said 

>As an aside you may wish to buy the haynes manual on Washing machines.
>http://www.amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/1859603270/qid=1116158682/sr=8-13/r
>ef=pd_ka_12/202-3225944-4879855
>
>If your have ever used one for a car you will know how useful it is.
>Amusingly they are also doing one for women!
>


I didn't see the 'women' one, but the washer/drier manual is now on order. 
When it is out of warranty, I will be ripping that top off with glee. Until
then I can't trust myself not to do some permanent damage!
Thanks again.