Hi all,

I bought a PPPro 1200w mains drill for about £55 yesterday.  Yes, I
know it's not a Makita, but for my level of DIY, PPPro has always
represented good value.  It was bought to replace an old B&D 450w POS,
and to complement a PPPro 12V drill/driver which is a good bit of kit
for £30!

However, they had an 850W SDS drill at around the same price.  I know
that a cheap SDS drill isn't light, but as I will use the drill/driver
for 90% of tasks,  perhaps this isn't a problem.  I also shied away
from it as I have no SDS bits.

But now I'm thinking I should take the 1200w back and swap it for the
SDS.  I have to fit some metal back boxes in brick, and I'm thinking
that joining the SDS club would be a good move, even at this price
point.

I know it's all in the eye of the beholder, but opinions please?
Should I do the swap?

Antony

On 21 May 2005 05:30:51 -0700, "antgel"  wrote:


>Hi all,
>
>I bought a PPPro 1200w mains drill for about 55 yesterday.  Yes, I
>know it's not a Makita, but for my level of DIY, PPPro has always
>represented good value.  It was bought to replace an old B&D 450w POS,
>and to complement a PPPro 12V drill/driver which is a good bit of kit
>for 30!
>
>However, they had an 850W SDS drill at around the same price.  I know
>that a cheap SDS drill isn't light, but as I will use the drill/driver
>for 90% of tasks,  perhaps this isn't a problem.  I also shied away
>from it as I have no SDS bits.
>
>But now I'm thinking I should take the 1200w back and swap it for the
>SDS.  I have to fit some metal back boxes in brick, and I'm thinking
>that joining the SDS club would be a good move, even at this price
>point.
>
>I know it's all in the eye of the beholder, but opinions please?
>Should I do the swap?
>
>Antony



Definitely.  Swap it for cash and then buy a Bosch one.



-- 

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

antgel wrote:


> I bought a PPPro 1200w mains drill for about 55 yesterday.  Yes, I
> know it's not a Makita, but for my level of DIY, PPPro has always
> represented good value.  It was bought to replace an old B&D 450w POS,
> and to complement a PPPro 12V drill/driver which is a good bit of kit
> for 30!
> 
> However, they had an 850W SDS drill at around the same price.  I know
> that a cheap SDS drill isn't light, but as I will use the drill/driver
> for 90% of tasks,  perhaps this isn't a problem.  I also shied away
> from it as I have no SDS bits.
> 
> But now I'm thinking I should take the 1200w back and swap it for the
> SDS.  I have to fit some metal back boxes in brick, and I'm thinking
> that joining the SDS club would be a good move, even at this price
> point.
> 
> I know it's all in the eye of the beholder, but opinions please?
> Should I do the swap?



Spending that much on a PPPro just doesn't make sense, when you can have 
a Bosch or a Makita for only slightly more. I could just about 
understand someone buying a 20 PPPro, because you can't get any decent 
makes for that price - but not 55.

As for the SDS, again, why on earth would you spend that much on a poor 
make, when you can have a pro tool for about 30 more? That's less than 
you'll spend on bits.


-- 
Grunff

On 21 May 2005 05:30:51 -0700, "antgel"  wrote:


>Hi all,
>
>I bought a PPPro 1200w mains drill for about 55 yesterday.  Yes, I
>know it's not a Makita, but for my level of DIY, PPPro has always
>represented good value.  It was bought to replace an old B&D 450w POS,
>and to complement a PPPro 12V drill/driver which is a good bit of kit
>for 30!
>
>However, they had an 850W SDS drill at around the same price.  I know
>that a cheap SDS drill isn't light, but as I will use the drill/driver
>for 90% of tasks,  perhaps this isn't a problem.  I also shied away
>from it as I have no SDS bits.
>
>But now I'm thinking I should take the 1200w back and swap it for the
>SDS.  I have to fit some metal back boxes in brick, and I'm thinking
>that joining the SDS club would be a good move, even at this price
>point.
>
>I know it's all in the eye of the beholder, but opinions please?
>Should I do the swap?
>
>Antony


B&Q don't do exchanges on power tools if you don't like them (so I am
imformed by the returns desk). The tool I got the other week, that was
not upto doing what I asked it to do, the assistant suggested that it
must be a dud, so I agreed.

Rick

Grunff wrote;

> Spending that much on a PPPro just doesn't make sense, when you can have a 
> Bosch or a Makita for only slightly more. I could just about understand 
> someone buying a 20 PPPro, because you can't get any decent makes for 
> that price - but not 55.
>
> As for the SDS, again, why on earth would you spend that much on a poor 
> make, when you can have a pro tool for about 30 more? That's less than 
> you'll spend on bits.


I reckon the PPro stuff gets a lot of stick it doesn't deserve,  I've got 
PPro routers, drill drivers, sanders and a jigsaw, most of which is made by 
Ryobi anyway.  All have a 3 year warranty & B&Q don't argue about it, they 
replace or credit.

Why spend slightly more on a brand name with a one year warranty?  Bearing 
in mind you are buying low end brand name.

Dave

David Lang wrote:

> Grunff wrote;
> 
>>Spending that much on a PPPro just doesn't make sense, when you can have a 
>>Bosch or a Makita for only slightly more. I could just about understand 
>>someone buying a 20 PPPro, because you can't get any decent makes for 
>>that price - but not 55.
>>
>>As for the SDS, again, why on earth would you spend that much on a poor 
>>make, when you can have a pro tool for about 30 more? That's less than 
>>you'll spend on bits.
> 
> 
> I reckon the PPro stuff gets a lot of stick it doesn't deserve,  I've got 
> PPro routers, drill drivers, sanders and a jigsaw,


Having used both PP and PPPro tools, I am fairly confident in saying 
that the performance sucks.




> most of which is made by 
> Ryobi anyway.


This is based on what?




> All have a 3 year warranty & B&Q don't argue about it, they 
> replace or credit.


Sure, but this isn't the only (or even the most important) 
consideration. For many people, the performance of the tool also matters.




> Why spend slightly more on a brand name with a one year warranty?


Because they will perform better, and you'll be able to get spares for them.



> Bearing 
> in mind you are buying low end brand name.


How's that? The examples I gave were for either Bosch Blue or Makita 
tools - hardly low end.


-- 
Grunff

Hi Grunff.


> Having used both PP and PPPro tools, I am fairly confident in saying that 
> the performance sucks.


I'd agree on the PP range, cheap as chips and yes, the performance sucks. 
Not so IMO with the PPro range.  I have a 700 watt barrel jigsaw from PPro 
for example and the performance is awesome.


>> most of which is made by Ryobi anyway.
>
> This is based on what?


Based on me knowing a lot of people in the power tool trade who tell me so. 
Plus the fact that many design features are common to both and found nowhere 
else.  Examples being the belt sander with a frame (rare these days) and the 
barrel jigsaw (also rare, but better control IMO).


>> Why spend slightly more on a brand name with a one year warranty?
>
> Because they will perform better, and you'll be able to get spares for 
> them.


You can get spares for the PPro range.  You get parts lists with most of 
them.  Apart from which, if I spend 'not a lot' on a power tool and it last 
3 years, I'm happy with that.  Performance is not always that much better 
anyway.  As I said, to outperform my PPro jigsaw would take some doing - it 
laughs at 40mm worktop.

These days though I'm not sure it's worth repairing stuff.  I had a 20 year 
old Elu orbital sander and the bearings went.  30 to even look at it, 
bearings could cost 10, another 20 labour.  Total 60 odd quid and I'm 
left with a sander designed 20 years ago.  Things have moved on.  ROS 
sanders at 35 run rings round the old Elu, good as it was.

>
>> Bearing in mind you are buying low end brand name.
>
> How's that? The examples I gave were for either Bosch Blue or Makita 
> tools - hardly low end.


I'd assumed you were talking Bosh Green & Maktech.  Even so, do the sums add 
up?

Dave

David Lang wrote:


> I'd agree on the PP range, cheap as chips and yes, the performance sucks. 
> Not so IMO with the PPro range.  I have a 700 watt barrel jigsaw from PPro 
> for example and the performance is awesome.


Not tried the jigsaw, but I have used (owned in fact) the 18V Combi 
drill (really poor), the 800W main hammer drill (ditto), and the 8" 
sliding mitre saw (makes my NuTool look accurate).




>>>most of which is made by Ryobi anyway.
>>
>>This is based on what?
> 
> 
> Based on me knowing a lot of people in the power tool trade who tell me so.


Yeah, but there is so much hearsay in this area I'd rather not believe 
it unless it's been published by the brand or manufacturer in question.




> You can get spares for the PPro range.  You get parts lists with most of 
> them. 


Where do you order the parts from?




> As I said, to outperform my PPro jigsaw would take some doing - it 
> laughs at 40mm worktop.


So does my 7 year old Bosch Green :-)




> I'd assumed you were talking Bosh Green & Maktech.  Even so, do the sums add 
> up?


I would say in this particular example, it really makes little sense to 
go for the PPPro. For instance:

The OP is talking about a mains drill for 55. Ignore the 1200Ws for now 
- the power rating of the motor has little bearing on the available 
output power, or the performance of the tool. My suggested alternatives 
would be:
<http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?ts=20179&id=40484>
<http://www.axminster.co.uk/product.asp?pf_id=22231&recno=4>

Either of these tools is likely to outlast the PPPro by a decade or two, 
and be far nicer to use.


The there's the SDS drill, also at around 55. SDS drills are one thing 
where the cheap ones really are crap - I know, I've owned some. My 
suggested alternatives would be:
<http://www.screwfix.com/app/sfd/cat/pro.jsp?ts=20526&id=16770>
<http://www.axminster.co.uk/product.asp?pf_id=22333&recno=3>

Sure they cost a little more, but the difference between them and a 
PPPro tool is vast.


I'm not saying cheap tools don't have their place - just that in many 
situations, going for the cheap tool just doesn't make sense.

For example, I own a NuTool sliding mitre saw. I recognise this tool as 
being really very poor in terms of accuracy and ease of use. However, 
the equavalent decent tool would have cost me ~500. I couldn't spend 
that at the time. One day, soon, I will replace it with a Makita. But 
for now, it makes cutting fence rails etc. much easier.


-- 
Grunff

Hi Grunff


> Yeah, but there is so much hearsay in this area I'd rather not believe it 
> unless it's been published by the brand or manufacturer in question.


OK, but look at the obvious stuff.  Who else makes a belt sander with a 
depth frame?  Or a barrel jigsaw with side vents on the base for extraction. 
Circumstancial evidence granted, but a bit like a trout in the milk?


> Where do you order the parts from?


Web address on the warranty leaflet.  I think the warranty issue is valid 
though.  I have a Ferm biscuit jointer that had a minor fault after 14 
months.. Screwfix said they would only repair it, I had to send it back at 
my expense and pay for the return delivery @7:50.  B&Q would simply have 
replaced it there and then.


>
> Either of these tools is likely to outlast the PPPro by a decade or two, 
> and be far nicer to use.


Maybe.  We will never know unless we buy them will we?


> For example, I own a NuTool sliding mitre saw. I recognise this tool as 
> being really very poor in terms of accuracy and ease of use. However, the 
> equavalent decent tool would have cost me ~500. I couldn't spend that at 
> the time. One day, soon, I will replace it with a Makita. But for now, it 
> makes cutting fence rails etc. much easier.


I know what you mean.  When researching a new type of power tool I usually 
buy a cheapo first to see how I get on with it and if it's any good.  If I 
get on with it and like it, I'll spend the extra and get a better make.  But 
seriously I've only been impressed with the PPro I've bought.

A good thing about B&Q though - you can use their money to experiment.  I 
bought a Pro el cheapo belt sander and decided  that a belt sander would be 
a useful piece of kit.  Then I took it back & traded up to a PPRo.

Dave

Grunff  wrote:


> >>>most of which is made by Ryobi anyway.
> >>
> >>This is based on what?
> > 
> > 
> > Based on me knowing a lot of people in the power tool trade who tell me so.
> 
> Yeah, but there is so much hearsay in this area I'd rather not believe
> it unless it's been published by the brand or manufacturer in question.


The PPPro 18V cordless circular trim saw is actually marked "Ryobi" and
the Cordless Drill from the same series is definitely a Ryobi, identical
in every respect.

-- 
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little 
 temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

 -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759

On Sun, 22 May 2005 00:51:28 GMT, "David Lang"
 wrote:


>
>Hi Grunff
>
>> Yeah, but there is so much hearsay in this area I'd rather not believe it 
>> unless it's been published by the brand or manufacturer in question.
>
>OK, but look at the obvious stuff.  Who else makes a belt sander with a 
>depth frame?  


Makita and Bosch both do.   I have the Makita one...





-- 

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

In article <vfPje.1810$iq5.935@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk>, David Lang
 writes

>Grunff wrote;
>> Spending that much on a PPPro just doesn't make sense, when you can have a 
>> Bosch or a Makita for only slightly more. I could just about understand 
>> someone buying a 20 PPPro, because you can't get any decent makes for 
>> that price - but not 55.
>>
>> As for the SDS, again, why on earth would you spend that much on a poor 
>> make, when you can have a pro tool for about 30 more? That's less than 
>> you'll spend on bits.
>
>I reckon the PPro stuff gets a lot of stick it doesn't deserve,  I've got 
>PPro routers, drill drivers, sanders and a jigsaw, most of which is made by 
>Ryobi anyway.  All have a 3 year warranty & B&Q don't argue about it, they 
>replace or credit.
>
>Why spend slightly more on a brand name with a one year warranty?  Bearing 
>in mind you are buying low end brand name.
>
>Dave
>
>


The only PPro "thing" I have left is a router which is still intact
simply 'cos the poxy thing is so badly designed that I don't use it!.

All the other PPro crap has long been since consigned to the tip....

-- 
Tony Sayer

Steve Firth wrote:


> The PPPro 18V cordless circular trim saw is actually marked "Ryobi" and
> the Cordless Drill from the same series is definitely a Ryobi, identical
> in every respect.



Well, ok, that's reasonable evidence :-)


-- 
Grunff

Hi Andy


> Makita and Bosch both do.   I have the Makita one...
>


OK,  I'll rephrase the question;

 >>>OK, but look at the obvious stuff.  Who else makes a belt sander with a 
depth frame?

At a similar price to B&Q PPro

Dave

On Sun, 22 May 2005 11:36:30 GMT, "David Lang"
 wrote:


>Hi Andy
>
>> Makita and Bosch both do.   I have the Makita one...
>>
>
>OK,  I'll rephrase the question;
>
> >>>OK, but look at the obvious stuff.  Who else makes a belt sander with a 
>depth frame?
>
>At a similar price to B&Q PPro
>
>Dave
>


One needs to look at price, quality and performance.....



-- 

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

Hi Andy

> One needs to look at price, quality and performance.....


Agreed, but the discussion was about whether or not the B&Q PPro were made 
by Ryobi.  I pointed out that the belt sander has a frame and the jigsaw is 
a barrel type, both unusual features.

I don't dispute that Makita & Bosch make machines with these features, but 
it's unlikely that they are manufacturing cheap units for B&Q, so Ryobi is 
the a likely candidate.

Dave

"David Lang"  wrote in message 
news:TE_je.4553$iq5.3578@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk...

> Hi Andy
>> One needs to look at price, quality and performance.....
>
> Agreed, but the discussion was about whether or not the B&Q PPro were made 
> by Ryobi.  I pointed out that the belt sander has a frame and the jigsaw 
> is a barrel type, both unusual features.
>
> I don't dispute that Makita & Bosch make machines with these features, but 
> it's unlikely that they are manufacturing cheap units for B&Q, so Ryobi is 
> the a likely candidate.
>
> Dave
>
>

PPPro tools are made by GMC not Ryobi.

http://www.gmcompany.com/index.cfm

"Kaiser"  wrote in message
news:4290a025$0$297$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com...

>
> "David Lang"  wrote in message
> news:TE_je.4553$iq5.3578@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
> > Hi Andy
> >> One needs to look at price, quality and performance.....
> >
> > Agreed, but the discussion was about whether or not the B&Q PPro were
made
> > by Ryobi.  I pointed out that the belt sander has a frame and the jigsaw
> > is a barrel type, both unusual features.
> >
> > I don't dispute that Makita & Bosch make machines with these features,
but
> > it's unlikely that they are manufacturing cheap units for B&Q, so Ryobi
is
> > the a likely candidate.
> >
> > Dave
> >
> >
> PPPro tools are made by GMC not Ryobi.
>
> http://www.gmcompany.com/index.cfm


They are not all made by one company. The same with Wickes pro range. Many
are made by Kress, and some by an Italian maker.  It is always best to
inquire where they are made. If Germany then it is a Kress.  Their SDS
drills are Kress and very good.

_________________________________________
Usenet Zone Free Binaries Usenet Server
More than 120,000 groups
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H Kaiser

> PPPro tools are made by GMC not Ryobi.
>
> http://www.gmcompany.com/index.cfm


Wow!  They are indeed!  How did you find that out?

Looking at some of the drill drivers I reckon Ryobi are buying stuff from 
them.

Dave

In article <4290a025$0$297$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com>, Kaiser
 writes

>
>"David Lang"  wrote in message 
>news:TE_je.4553$iq5.3578@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
>> Hi Andy
>>> One needs to look at price, quality and performance.....
>>
>> Agreed, but the discussion was about whether or not the B&Q PPro were made 
>> by Ryobi.  I pointed out that the belt sander has a frame and the jigsaw 
>> is a barrel type, both unusual features.
>>
>> I don't dispute that Makita & Bosch make machines with these features, but 
>> it's unlikely that they are manufacturing cheap units for B&Q, so Ryobi is 
>> the a likely candidate.
>>
>> Dave
>>
>>
>PPPro tools are made by GMC not Ryobi.
>
>http://www.gmcompany.com/index.cfm 
>
>


Seems their websites down!...
-- 
Tony Sayer

"tony sayer"  wrote in message
news:CFSjvXAj4LkCFwit@bancom.co.uk...

> In article <4290a025$0$297$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com>, Kaiser
>  writes
> >
> >"David Lang"  wrote in message
> >news:TE_je.4553$iq5.3578@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
> >> Hi Andy
> >>> One needs to look at price, quality and performance.....
> >>
> >> Agreed, but the discussion was about whether or not the B&Q PPro were
made
> >> by Ryobi.  I pointed out that the belt sander has a frame and the
jigsaw
> >> is a barrel type, both unusual features.
> >>
> >> I don't dispute that Makita & Bosch make machines with these features,
but
> >> it's unlikely that they are manufacturing cheap units for B&Q, so Ryobi
is
> >> the a likely candidate.
> >>
> >> Dave
> >>
> >>
> >PPPro tools are made by GMC not Ryobi.
> >
> >http://www.gmcompany.com/index.cfm
> >
> >
>
> Seems their websites down!...


this is not:
http://www.gmcompany.com/

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"Doctor Evil"  wrote in message 
news:4290b741@news.usenetzone.com...

>
> "Kaiser"  wrote in message
> news:4290a025$0$297$cc9e4d1f@news-text.dial.pipex.com...
>>
>> "David Lang"  wrote in message
>> news:TE_je.4553$iq5.3578@fe1.news.blueyonder.co.uk...
>> > Hi Andy
>> >> One needs to look at price, quality and performance.....
>> >
>> > Agreed, but the discussion was about whether or not the B&Q PPro were
> made
>> > by Ryobi.  I pointed out that the belt sander has a frame and the 
>> > jigsaw
>> > is a barrel type, both unusual features.
>> >
>> > I don't dispute that Makita & Bosch make machines with these features,
> but
>> > it's unlikely that they are manufacturing cheap units for B&Q, so Ryobi
> is
>> > the a likely candidate.
>> >
>> > Dave
>> >
>> >
>> PPPro tools are made by GMC not Ryobi.
>>
>> http://www.gmcompany.com/index.cfm
>
> They are not all made by one company. The same with Wickes pro range. Many
> are made by Kress, and some by an Italian maker.  It is always best to
> inquire where they are made. If Germany then it is a Kress.  Their SDS
> drills are Kress and very good.
>

It appears to be a coincidence that they say "GMC has also expanded into 
numerous international markets including the United Kingdom", and the only 
place I've seen their kit is in B&Q all though as a previous poster said 
"Looking at some of the drill drivers I reckon Ryobi are buying stuff from 
them".

I doubt if B&Q staff would know who manufactures their own brand as they 
don't seem as knowledgable as Wickes staff.

By the way you can download manuals on that site for some of the tools, as I 
did for someone who had one of the PPPro 24v 3 speed drills.

Kaiser  wrote:


> PPPro tools are made by GMC not Ryobi.


Then they appear to be sticking "Ryobi" stickers on some of the internal
parts.

-- 
"They that can give up essential liberty to obtain a little 
 temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."

 -- Benjamin Franklin, 1759

On Mon, 23 May 2005 01:32:19 +0100, %steve%@malloc.co.uk (Steve Firth)
wrote:


>Kaiser  wrote:
>
>> PPPro tools are made by GMC not Ryobi.
>
>Then they appear to be sticking "Ryobi" stickers on some of the internal
>parts.



The Chinese factories will do whatever level of private labelling to
obfuscate the product's true origin that the customer would like.

It all depends on the price and how many container loads he's willing
to take.



-- 

..andy

To email, substitute .nospam with .gl

antgel wrote:


> But now I'm thinking I should take the 1200w back and swap it for the
> SDS.  I have to fit some metal back boxes in brick, and I'm thinking
> that joining the SDS club would be a good move, even at this price
> point.


Have a look at the "what to look for" section here:

http://www.diyfaq.org.uk/powertools/sds.htm

If you want to do much chiseling then get one with a speed controller 
trigger, otherwise they are rather "random" when trying to start a cut.



-- 
Cheers,

John.

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