I visited the Oxford BF this evening and was very surprised at the
pricing - the cheapest beers (milds etc) were 2.40 and most beers
were 2.60 and up. This is right at the top of commercial beer pricing
in Oxford city centre. It means you can't buy 2 pints with 5.00 worth
of tokens.

Does anybody else feel this is excessive? Given that the beers will be
coming in at around 50 for 72 pints you have to wonder where the
margin is going. There is also a 2.50/1.50 admission charge.

I have to say that, apart from this issue, the beers were well chosen
and in good condition, and the festival was a very pleasant
experience. No criticism is implied of the volunteers involved.

Best regards, Paul
--
Paul Sherwin Consulting     http://paulsherwin.co.uk

On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 23:37:17 GMT, paulSPAM@paulsherwin.co.uk (Paul
Sherwin) wrote:


>I visited the Oxford BF this evening and was very surprised at the
>pricing - the cheapest beers (milds etc) were 2.40 and most beers
>were 2.60 and up. This is right at the top of commercial beer pricing
>in Oxford city centre. It means you can't buy 2 pints with 5.00 worth
>of tokens.
>
>Does anybody else feel this is excessive? Given that the beers will be
>coming in at around 50 for 72 pints you have to wonder where the
>margin is going. There is also a 2.50/1.50 admission charge.
>
>I have to say that, apart from this issue, the beers were well chosen
>and in good condition, and the festival was a very pleasant
>experience. No criticism is implied of the volunteers involved.
>
>Best regards, Paul

It depends on the overheads.At Melton for example we have the premises
free of cost and the owners actually provide physical help.So we can
price our beer/cider quite profitably at 2 a pint throughout the
range and no entry charge except late evening when the band is on.Also
we can leave the casks on the stillage for an extra day to settle
because the hall is ours for the week.
We also have a first class buyer/cellarman who purchases the drink at
very keen prices (we even had a firkin of Youngs Special London
Ale,6.4% ABV which came in at 60)

In article ,
   Paul Sherwin  wrote:

> I visited the Oxford BF this evening and was very surprised at the
> pricing - the cheapest beers (milds etc) were 2.40 and most beers
> were 2.60 and up. This is right at the top of commercial beer pricing
> in Oxford city centre. It means you can't buy 2 pints with 5.00 worth
> of tokens.

> Does anybody else feel this is excessive? Given that the beers will be
> coming in at around 50 for 72 pints you have to wonder where the
> margin is going. 


They probably aren't coming in at the price you think they are.
50 quid sounds like the sort of price I was paying back in the 90's for
*some* beers.
Hmmm, I've just checked the 1997 spreadsheet for Coventry beer festival
and the only beer that was less than 55 quid was from a local brewer
(and friend) Average price was more like 60-70 quid. We had a few
expensive ones which I've ignored.

Add 8 years inflation (plus various other price hikes) to those prices
and see what happens.

-- 
Steve Pampling

On Fri, 14 Oct 2005 07:30:29 GMT, valeofbelvoirdrinker 
wrote:

>On Thu, 13 Oct 2005 23:37:17 GMT, paulSPAM@paulsherwin.co.uk (Paul
>Sherwin) wrote:
>>
>>Does anybody else feel this is excessive? Given that the beers will be
>>coming in at around 50 for 72 pints you have to wonder where the
>>margin is going. There is also a 2.50/1.50 admission charge.
>>
>It depends on the overheads.At Melton for example we have the premises
>free of cost and the owners actually provide physical help.So we can
>price our beer/cider quite profitably at 2 a pint throughout the
>range and no entry charge except late evening when the band is on.Also
>we can leave the casks on the stillage for an extra day to settle
>because the hall is ours for the week.
>We also have a first class buyer/cellarman who purchases the drink at
>very keen prices (we even had a firkin of Youngs Special London
>Ale,6.4% ABV which came in at 60)


I know the venue (Oxford Town Hall) is expensive, but even so... 160
firkins = say 10,000 saleable pints, gross margin per pint 1.50,
gross profit 15,000. Plus say 5,000 visitors over the festival,
average 2 each, total gross profit before costs 25,000. This seems
an awful lot to me.

http://oxfordcamra.org.uk/festival2005.php

Best regards, Paul
--
Paul Sherwin Consulting     http://paulsherwin.co.uk

> I know the venue (Oxford Town Hall) is expensive, but even so... 160
> firkins = say 10,000 saleable pints, gross margin per pint 1.50,
> gross profit 15,000. Plus say 5,000 visitors over the festival,
> average 2 each, total gross profit before costs 25,000. This seems
> an awful lot to me.
>
> http://oxfordcamra.org.uk/festival2005.php
>
> Best regards, Paul


What did the organising branch say?

-- 

Brett

In article ,
   Paul Sherwin  wrote:

> I visited the Oxford BF this evening and was very surprised at the
> pricing - the cheapest beers (milds etc) were 2.40 and most beers
> were 2.60 and up. This is right at the top of commercial beer pricing
> in Oxford city centre. It means you can't buy 2 pints with 5.00 worth
> of tokens.

> Does anybody else feel this is excessive? Given that the beers will be
> coming in at around 50 for 72 pints you have to wonder where the
> margin is going. There is also a 2.50/1.50 admission charge.


You must check your assumptions! When I was involved in running a beer
agency some 10 years ago, the average price per firkin was over 60.

I also have to say that some beers at this year's Great British Beer
Festival were sold wholesale to us at over 2 per pint. If that is the case
for that amount of bulk purchase, then it must be even more so for a small
festival buying only one firkin.

Beer is not the only cost at a festival. OK the volunteers are free so
there is no staff cost, but you also have venue hire and stillage costs to
name but two. 

I am, however, dismayed by your implication. What is the problem with a
marginal surplus going to the Campaign for Real Ale? Isn't that what
not-for-profit companies are for - so that profits are not distributed to
shareholders or other third parties, but are ploughed back into the company
itself? If you don't like this idea, don't go to Camra beer festivals!


> I have to say that, apart from this issue, the beers were well chosen
> and in good condition, and the festival was a very pleasant
> experience. No criticism is implied of the volunteers involved.


At least that's helpful!


> Best regards, Paul
> --
> Paul Sherwin Consulting     http://paulsherwin.co.uk


-- 
Christine Ramsbottom

On Fri, 14 Oct 2005 16:07:51 +0100, Christine
 wrote:


>I am, however, dismayed by your implication. What is the problem with a
>marginal surplus going to the Campaign for Real Ale? Isn't that what
>not-for-profit companies are for - so that profits are not distributed to
>shareholders or other third parties, but are ploughed back into the company
>itself? If you don't like this idea, don't go to Camra beer festivals!


Christine, one of the reasons I no longer attend GBBF is that it has
become a cynical money making / publicity generating event. I always
assumed that local BFs were essentially non profit making occasions.
Of course, the costs of the event must be covered, but do you really
think BF attendees should be ripped off to  provide funds for central
CAMRA expenditure of questionable value? Nobody asked me if the beer
heads campaign was sensible, still less the painfully naff Ninkasi
campaign :-(

Paul
--
Paul Sherwin Consulting     http://paulsherwin.co.uk

Paul Sherwin wrote:

> On Fri, 14 Oct 2005 16:07:51 +0100, Christine
>  wrote:
>
>> I am, however, dismayed by your implication. What is the problem
>> with a marginal surplus going to the Campaign for Real Ale? Isn't
>> that what not-for-profit companies are for - so that profits are not
>> distributed to shareholders or other third parties, but are ploughed
>> back into the company itself? If you don't like this idea, don't go
>> to Camra beer festivals!
>
> Christine, one of the reasons I no longer attend GBBF is that it has
> become a cynical money making / publicity generating event. I always
> assumed that local BFs were essentially non profit making occasions.
> Of course, the costs of the event must be covered, but do you really
> think BF attendees should be ripped off to  provide funds for central
> CAMRA expenditure of questionable value? Nobody asked me if the beer
> heads campaign was sensible, still less the painfully naff Ninkasi
> campaign :-(
>


Sounds terribly naive to me - how many effective campaigning organisations 
are there that exist without money and publicity?
On the whole I don't think anyone was ripped off at GBBF. Yes there were 
some over-priced beers on sale but they were well signed and I simply 
purchased others.

You miss the point about Ninkasi. Of course it was naff - it was meant to 
be. The point was it got plenty of coverage in the national press and raised 
CAMRAs profile especially with younger people. The point about advertising 
and promotions are that they need to change to attract different audiences. 
"Safe" advertising that offends no-one is like bland beer - no one notices 
it.
-- 

Brett

In article ,
   Paul Sherwin  wrote:

> Of course, the costs of the event must be covered, but do you really
> think BF attendees should be ripped off to  provide funds for central
> CAMRA expenditure of questionable value? 


So, you're voting for a doubling of the membership fee this coming year and
another large increase the year after then?

-- 
Steve Pampling

"Steven Pampling"  wrote in message 
news:4db999c4f4steve.pampling@dsl.pipex.com...

> In article ,
>   Paul Sherwin  wrote:
>> I visited the Oxford BF this evening and was very surprised at the
>> pricing - the cheapest beers (milds etc) were 2.40 and most beers
>> were 2.60 and up. This is right at the top of commercial beer pricing
>> in Oxford city centre. It means you can't buy 2 pints with 5.00 worth
>> of tokens.
>
>> Does anybody else feel this is excessive? Given that the beers will be
>> coming in at around 50 for 72 pints you have to wonder where the
>> margin is going.
>
> They probably aren't coming in at the price you think they are.
> 50 quid sounds like the sort of price I was paying back in the 90's for
> *some* beers.
> Hmmm, I've just checked the 1997 spreadsheet for Coventry beer festival
> and the only beer that was less than 55 quid was from a local brewer
> (and friend) Average price was more like 60-70 quid. We had a few
> expensive ones which I've ignored.
>
> Add 8 years inflation (plus various other price hikes) to those prices
> and see what happens.


Call it 100 for 72 pints. That's (near enough) 1.40 a pint.
Say you get in thirty barrels - that's 30 * 100  = 3 000
Sell it at 1 per half pint (2 per pint) that's 4320
Minus your initial outlay (3000) gives a profit of 1320

You're running it in a "sensible" location that doesn't charge a fortune, 
let's be generous 320 gives a grand clear profit on the beer alone, to say 
nothing of what you make on the food and glasses.

Or am I missing something ?

"Manky Badger" <spam@puritanDOTfreeserve.FULLSTOPcoSPOTuk> wrote in message
news:dirl11$oo0$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...

>
> "Steven Pampling"  wrote in message
> news:4db999c4f4steve.pampling@dsl.pipex.com...
> > In article ,
> >   Paul Sherwin  wrote:
> >> I visited the Oxford BF this evening and was very surprised at the
> >> pricing - the cheapest beers (milds etc) were 2.40 and most beers
> >> were 2.60 and up. This is right at the top of commercial beer pricing
> >> in Oxford city centre. It means you can't buy 2 pints with 5.00 worth
> >> of tokens.
> >
> >> Does anybody else feel this is excessive? Given that the beers will be
> >> coming in at around 50 for 72 pints you have to wonder where the
> >> margin is going.
> >
> > They probably aren't coming in at the price you think they are.
> > 50 quid sounds like the sort of price I was paying back in the 90's for
> > *some* beers.
> > Hmmm, I've just checked the 1997 spreadsheet for Coventry beer festival
> > and the only beer that was less than 55 quid was from a local brewer
> > (and friend) Average price was more like 60-70 quid. We had a few
> > expensive ones which I've ignored.
> >
> > Add 8 years inflation (plus various other price hikes) to those prices
> > and see what happens.
>
> Call it 100 for 72 pints. That's (near enough) 1.40 a pint.
> Say you get in thirty barrels - that's 30 * 100  = 3 000
> Sell it at 1 per half pint (2 per pint) that's 4320
> Minus your initial outlay (3000) gives a profit of 1320
>
> You're running it in a "sensible" location that doesn't charge a fortune,
> let's be generous 320 gives a grand clear profit on the beer alone, to
say
> nothing of what you make on the food and glasses.
>
> Or am I missing something ?
>

VAT for a start!

"Michael Jones"  wrote in message 
news:E%c4f.3916$2z4.1680@newsfe6-win.ntli.net...

> "Manky Badger" <spam@puritanDOTfreeserve.FULLSTOPcoSPOTuk> wrote in 
> message
> news:dirl11$oo0$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk...
>>
>> "Steven Pampling"  wrote in message
>> news:4db999c4f4steve.pampling@dsl.pipex.com...
>> > In article ,
>> >   Paul Sherwin  wrote:
>> >> I visited the Oxford BF this evening and was very surprised at the
>> >> pricing - the cheapest beers (milds etc) were 2.40 and most beers
>> >> were 2.60 and up. This is right at the top of commercial beer pricing
>> >> in Oxford city centre. It means you can't buy 2 pints with 5.00 worth
>> >> of tokens.
>> >
>> >> Does anybody else feel this is excessive? Given that the beers will be
>> >> coming in at around 50 for 72 pints you have to wonder where the
>> >> margin is going.
>> >
>> > They probably aren't coming in at the price you think they are.
>> > 50 quid sounds like the sort of price I was paying back in the 90's for
>> > *some* beers.
>> > Hmmm, I've just checked the 1997 spreadsheet for Coventry beer festival
>> > and the only beer that was less than 55 quid was from a local brewer
>> > (and friend) Average price was more like 60-70 quid. We had a few
>> > expensive ones which I've ignored.
>> >
>> > Add 8 years inflation (plus various other price hikes) to those prices
>> > and see what happens.
>>
>> Call it 100 for 72 pints. That's (near enough) 1.40 a pint.
>> Say you get in thirty barrels - that's 30 * 100  = 3 000
>> Sell it at 1 per half pint (2 per pint) that's 4320
>> Minus your initial outlay (3000) gives a profit of 1320
>>
>> You're running it in a "sensible" location that doesn't charge a fortune,
>> let's be generous 320 gives a grand clear profit on the beer alone, to
> say
>> nothing of what you make on the food and glasses.
>>
>> Or am I missing something ?
>>
> VAT for a start!


Ok - you know more than me - figure that in then :o)

In article <dirl11$oo0$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk>, Manky Badger
<spam@puritanDOTfreeserve.FULLSTOPcoSPOTuk> wrote:

[Snip]


> > Hmmm, I've just checked the 1997 spreadsheet for Coventry beer
> > festival and the only beer that was less than 55 quid was from a local
> > brewer (and friend) Average price was more like 60-70 quid. We had a
> > few expensive ones which I've ignored.
> >
> > Add 8 years inflation (plus various other price hikes) to those prices
> > and see what happens.

> Call it 100 for 72 pints. That's (near enough) 1.40 a pint.


Guess again.

As was pointed out earlier
 Message-ID: 

the buying in price of some beers exceeds your estimate by over 40%


> Say you
> get in thirty barrels - that's 30 * 100  = 3 000 Sell it at 1 per
> half pint (2 per pint) that's 4320 Minus your initial outlay (3000)
> gives a profit of 1320


Less wastage.


> You're running it in a "sensible" location that doesn't charge a
> fortune, let's be generous 320


Underestimate.


> gives a grand clear profit on the beer
> alone, to say nothing of what you make on the food and glasses.


In many halls the food is part of an in house concession and you make
nothing, plus sometimes having to "compensate" them for not being able to
sell the normal slop they call beer.

Glasses is a very finely judged game, get it wrong and you not only lose
money but you also have a storage problem for the next 12 months or more.
I could quote the calculations I have used to get that near right (for a
decent logo) but I won't as that is business sensitive hard won
information.


> Or am I missing something ?


Apart from the things I've already covered you could start with VAT,
Environmental health and depreciation on the equipment used.

Don't tell me, you've never been involved in running an event like this and
you wouldn't know where to start. :-)

-- 
Steve Pampling

"Steven Pampling"  wrote in message 
news:4dba663993steve.pampling@dsl.pipex.com...

> In article <dirl11$oo0$1@newsg3.svr.pol.co.uk>, Manky Badger
> <spam@puritanDOTfreeserve.FULLSTOPcoSPOTuk> wrote:
>
> [Snip]
>
>> > Hmmm, I've just checked the 1997 spreadsheet for Coventry beer
>> > festival and the only beer that was less than 55 quid was from a local
>> > brewer (and friend) Average price was more like 60-70 quid. We had a
>> > few expensive ones which I've ignored.
>> >
>> > Add 8 years inflation (plus various other price hikes) to those prices
>> > and see what happens.
>
>> Call it 100 for 72 pints. That's (near enough) 1.40 a pint.
>
> Guess again.
>
> As was pointed out earlier
> Message-ID: 
>
> the buying in price of some beers exceeds your estimate by over 40%
>
>> Say you
>> get in thirty barrels - that's 30 * 100  = 3 000 Sell it at 1 per
>> half pint (2 per pint) that's 4320 Minus your initial outlay (3000)
>> gives a profit of 1320
>
> Less wastage.
>
>> You're running it in a "sensible" location that doesn't charge a
>> fortune, let's be generous 320
>
> Underestimate.
>
>> gives a grand clear profit on the beer
>> alone, to say nothing of what you make on the food and glasses.
>
> In many halls the food is part of an in house concession and you make
> nothing, plus sometimes having to "compensate" them for not being able to
> sell the normal slop they call beer.
>
> Glasses is a very finely judged game, get it wrong and you not only lose
> money but you also have a storage problem for the next 12 months or more.
> I could quote the calculations I have used to get that near right (for a
> decent logo) but I won't as that is business sensitive hard won
> information.
>
>> Or am I missing something ?
>
> Apart from the things I've already covered you could start with VAT,
> Environmental health and depreciation on the equipment used.
>
> Don't tell me, you've never been involved in running an event like this 
> and
> you wouldn't know where to start. :-)


Far from it.
Amongst other things I've twice fund-raised for & helped organise a three 
week trip for scouts to the USA.
OK - to recalculate

Call it 140 for 72 pints. That's (near enough) 1.95 a pint.
Say you get in thirty barrels - that's 30 * 140  = 4200
Sell it at 1.25 per half pint (2.50 per pint) that's 5400
Minus your initial outlay (4200) gives a profit of 1200

To take some of your points:
Your wastage doesn't arise. You deliberately under-order so as not to have 
wastage.
Location charge - as discussed in another thread - find a sensible location. 
There are lots that don't charge a fortune.
Food - as location - find somewhere that doesn't demand a concession.
Glasses - buy a load of placcy ones from Tesco.
VAT, etc- even allowing for 50% we're still  over 500 in pocket.

From these figures I shall be running a beer festival to help finance the 
scout trip planned to Alaska in 2008 !

In article <dirsdp$sju$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>, Manky Badger
<spam@puritanDOTfreeserve.FULLSTOPcoSPOTuk> wrote:

> To take some of your points: Your wastage doesn't arise.


Ah, a man who has been through the <select big brewer> training school.
So how many pints were you looking to get out of the 72 pint container?


> You deliberately under-order so as not to have wastage.


You miss the point. It's what you get out of a cask and the spills. Or were
you going for the shady method of tipping back?


> Location charge -
> as discussed in another thread - find a sensible location.


Neat trick, sometimes you drop lucky. Rare though.


> There are
> lots that don't charge a fortune. Food - as location - find somewhere
> that doesn't demand a concession. 

> Glasses - buy a load of placcy ones
> from Tesco.


Drinkers favourite.(Not) Even our outdoor events at the Organic Gardens
used glass.


> VAT, etc- even allowing for 50% we're still  over 500 in pocket.


Not really you see that bit about venue prices for somewhere that matches
your criteria is your stumbling block. As I said sometimes you drop lucky,
but not often.

-- 
Steve Pampling

"Steven Pampling"  wrote in message 
news:4dba70182bsteve.pampling@dsl.pipex.com...

> In article <dirsdp$sju$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>, Manky Badger
> <spam@puritanDOTfreeserve.FULLSTOPcoSPOTuk> wrote:

>> To take some of your points: Your wastage doesn't arise.
>
> Ah, a man who has been through the <select big brewer> training school.
> So how many pints were you looking to get out of the 72 pint container?

>> VAT, etc- even allowing for 50% we're still  over 500 in pocket.
>
> Not really you see that bit about venue prices for somewhere that matches
> your criteria is your stumbling block. As I said sometimes you drop lucky,
> but not often.


Could I ask for a more realistic budget, please. The whole idea of a beer 
festival looks too good a fund raiser to ignore.

MB

>Call it 140 for 72 pints. That's (near enough) 1.95 a pint.

I, and mnay other brewers, would love to get 140 a firkin - micro 
brewery beer is certainly a very cheap product given the costs and 
effort that go into producing it (ironically this applies no matter how 
well brewed or otherwise the beer is...)

We supply a number of the CAMRA festivals with a range of beers from 
breweries across the UK, and I would say that an average price of 60 
for an average abv of 4.5 is probably about right.  This is of course 
plus VAT, and is based on a large number of beers from the smaller, 
newer breweries who charge a higher than average price, even to a 
'middle-man' like ourselves.  It is also often the case that there is 
slightly more wastage at a festival than in a cellar, but even so I 
would still guess at around 67 - 68 pints per firkin (plus allow for 
overfilling / underfilling, which may make a difference to this figure).

It is also the case that a festivla very rarely - if ever - sells the 
last pint in the last second of opening - often beer will be left over, 
which also needs to be factored in.

Costs of Festivals are increasing faster than inflation, mostly due to 
higher charges for the venues & insurance.  The new licensing regs may 
increase costs as well, but this remains to be seen.

I don't know who gets the profits, but I doubt many CAMRA branches are 
rolling in money (?) - and they put in a LOT of work to arrange the 
festivals, so you can't begrudge them a few quid for branch funds..

Given all the above, I do suspect that sometimes festival prices are set 
so as to avoid undercutting the local pub trade - but this is a point of 
view based on no hard facts!



Steve Banfield
Buntingford Brewery

Brett... a crit :


>You miss the point about Ninkasi. Of course it was naff - it was meant to 
>be. The point was it got plenty of coverage in the national press and raised 
>CAMRAs profile especially with younger people. 
>  
>

Hear hear. Having seen the members of the press in action on the GBBF 
floor during trading sessions since 1999, I must say I'm not impressed 
by the approach of beer used by british journalists. Not to mention the 
arrogance shown by quite a few of them towards the festival staff (feed 
ME lines to blurb in front of the TV camera ?!?)
Naff campaigns it must be, because most journos coming over are pretty 
naff themselves, or at least unable to churn out much else than naff, 
superficial pieces... So if naff it must be, let's at least have some 
naff going in the right direction.


-- 
Warning : you may encounter French language beyond this point.

Hl... Dans l'obscurit il me vient  l'esprit une ide trange ! ... Et si le ciel tait un grand parapluie dfectueux ? 
(F'murrr)

Laurent Mousson, Berne, Switzerland

Paul Sherwin a crit :


>Christine, one of the reasons I no longer attend GBBF is that it has
>become a cynical money making / publicity generating event
>  
>

I wouldn't be that definitive about it making much money, Paul.

-- 
Warning : you may encounter French language beyond this point.

Hl... Dans l'obscurit il me vient  l'esprit une ide trange ! ... Et si le ciel tait un grand parapluie dfectueux ? 
(F'murrr)

Laurent Mousson, Berne, Switzerland

Manky Badger a crit :


>To take some of your points:
>Your wastage doesn't arise. You deliberately under-order so as not to have 
>wastage.
>  
>

Deliberately under-ordering is a tricky exercise. Some festivals manage 
to be drunk dry, but most end up with some cask ends anyway. Not to 
mention the pint or two that are drawn during cellaring.

Besides, pints and halves tend to be full pints and full halves at CAMRA 
festival, possibly even slight overmeasure, so you never get 72 actual 
pints out of 72 nominal pints.
Even using kegs of filtered beer, you rarely get the full nominal 
capacity of the keg out of it


>Location charge - as discussed in another thread - find a sensible location. 
>There are lots that don't charge a fortune.
>  
>

Finding  a sensible location that :

- accepts to host an alcohol-based event (most venue managers refuse 
from the second they hear "beer festival")

- allows for a decent number of visitors, not too many, not too few 
(there's usually a fire limit, which often seems ridiculously small in 
regard to the size of the venue)

- is convenient to deliver beer into (I guess yon don't exactly fancy 
carrying 50 or 70 kils or elevens up a few flights of stairs, right ?)

- has good public transport connections, ie. is central enough in the 
considered city / town (and that's a definite must, if you consider 
yourself to be a responsible organiser)

And then consider yourself very lucky. I some cities it must be 
possible, but it's all too painfully obvious that it's very complicted 
in cities such as Oxford (which we are talking of here). I know for 
example York branch considered literally dozens of venues after they 
lost the De Grey Rooms, failing to find anything suitable for 18 months 
or so.


>Food - as location - find somewhere that doesn't demand a concession.
>  
>

Adding this factor on top of all the others is reducing firther you 
chances of finding anything


>Glasses - buy a load of placcy ones from Tesco.
>  
>

Now that's a field where I've got quite bit of experience, plastic 
thingies...

We have touse plastic glasses here at Lausanne Beer Festival 
(http.//www.fetedelabiere.ch), because of local police and safety 
regulations.
They generate a lot of rubbish (and we pay for the evacuation of rubbish).
Anyone caring a tiny wee bit about taste is going to grumble about 
plastic. I have to explain literally hundreds of times over the four 
days at Lausanne Festival why we can't serve beer in glass containers 
(and can't sell bottles to take away either).
Besides, you typically can't use just any plastic glasses from Tescos. 
Most kinds have pretty sharp edges when broken. They therefore are not 
really much safer than a glass pint people have paid for, and therefore 
look after.
Tomake matters worse, the softer plastics that don't have sharp edges 
when broken tend to be too flimsy when full (especially half litres / 
pints) to be comfortable to work with. Or for people to carry rounds 
away in either.
Plus the plastic glasses that are ribbed horizontally, the commonest 
kind, are unusable with any beer that's slightly lively (except if you 
like the head of your pint two inches thick, that is...)


>VAT, etc- even allowing for 50% we're still  over 500 in pocket.
>
>From these figures I shall be running a beer festival to help finance the 
>scout trip planned to Alaska in 2008 !
>

Please do, and please tell us about your experiences afterwards.

Cheers !

Laurent

-- 
Warning : you may encounter French language beyond this point.

Hl... Dans l'obscurit il me vient  l'esprit une ide trange ! ... Et si le ciel tait un grand parapluie dfectueux ? 
(F'murrr)

Laurent Mousson, Berne, Switzerland

"The Submarine Captain"  wrote in message
news:43525e27$1_3@news.bluewin.ch...


> Finding  a sensible location that :

> - is convenient to deliver beer into (I guess yon don't exactly fancy
> carrying 50 or 70 kils or elevens up a few flights of stairs, right ?)


I would hope that beer festival organisers wouldn't select a venue that was
that inaccessible. Have we not heard of the DDA?

"Manky Badger" <spam@puritanDOTfreeserve.FULLSTOPcoSPOTuk> wrote in message

>
> Could I ask for a more realistic budget, please. The whole idea of a beer
> festival looks too good a fund raiser to ignore.


50 per kil is a realistic budget for venue costs. I.E. around 35p a pint 
sold.

Also bear in mind that given wastage, overmeasure, staff beer etc you are 
unlikely to get more than 120 saleable pints for each 144 pint kil.

Also it makes sense to budget for break-even at around 75% or 80% of beer 
sold. You can't guarantee you will sell out, and if you don't you will have 
a major financial hole.

-- 
http://www.stockportpubs.org.uk
"If a river bridge were not guarded by a parapet, the slackness of the
defaulting authority deserves the blame, not the people who fall in" -
Lieut. Col. Mervyn O'Gorman.

In message <43525e27$1_3@news.bluewin.ch>, The Submarine Captain 
 wrote


>Besides, you typically can't use just any plastic glasses from Tescos.


Most plastic glasses from the likes of Tesco are not marked with 
pint/half lines? Some form of other measured dispense would be required.

-- 
Alan
mailto:news2me_a_2003@amacleod.clara.co.uk

In message , Christine 
 wrote



>
>Beer is not the only cost at a festival. OK the volunteers are free so
>there is no staff cost, but you also have venue hire and stillage costs to
>name but two.


I bet most festivals do have staffing costs. Free, or cheap beer for 
instance.  There is also cost of training,  insurance for staff (and 
customers) and out of pocket expenses.  While these costs may fall far 
short of the minimum hourly wage they may not be insignificant 
especially if in the future  local councils may require that some of the 
staff have hygiene, first aid or door staff training/certification.


-- 
Alan
mailto:news2me_a_2003@amacleod.clara.co.uk

In article <ditbu2$1vc$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>, Manky Badger
<spam@puritanDOTfreeserve.FULLSTOPcoSPOTuk> wrote:


> Could I ask for a more realistic budget, please. The whole idea of a
> beer festival looks too good a fund raiser to ignore.


Done properly it can be. That's why people hang on to the expertise
developed over the course of a few decades.

-- 
Steve Pampling

In article ,
   Alan  wrote:

> or door staff training/certification.


Voluntary organisation, look at the exemptions list.

-- 
Steve Pampling

gavin a crit :


>"The Submarine Captain"  wrote in message
>news:43525e27$1_3@news.bluewin.ch...
>
>  
>
>>Finding  a sensible location that :
>>    
>>
>
>  
>
>>- is convenient to deliver beer into (I guess yon don't exactly fancy
>>carrying 50 or 70 kils or elevens up a few flights of stairs, right ?)
>>    
>>
>
>I would hope that beer festival organisers wouldn't select a venue that was
>that inaccessible. Have we not heard of the DDA?
>

Indeed, such venues are excluded, in principle.


-- 
Warning : you may encounter French language beyond this point.

Hl... Dans l'obscurit il me vient  l'esprit une ide trange ! ... Et si le ciel tait un grand parapluie dfectueux ? 
(F'murrr)

Laurent Mousson, Berne, Switzerland

"The Submarine Captain"  wrote in message
news:4352a19a$1_3@news.bluewin.ch...

> gavin a crit :
>
> >"The Submarine Captain"  wrote in message
> >news:43525e27$1_3@news.bluewin.ch...
> >
> >
> >
> >>Finding  a sensible location that :
> >>
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> >>- is convenient to deliver beer into (I guess yon don't exactly fancy
> >>carrying 50 or 70 kils or elevens up a few flights of stairs, right ?)
> >>
> >>
> >
> >I would hope that beer festival organisers wouldn't select a venue that
was
> >that inaccessible. Have we not heard of the DDA?
> >
> Indeed, such venues are excluded, in principle.


In that case one obviously wouldn't need to carry the beer  :-)

Steven Pampling wrote:

> 
> In article ,
>    Alan  wrote:
> > or door staff training/certification.
> 
> Voluntary organisation, look at the exemptions list.


AIUI, a venue can impose its own conditions above what the law requires
including use of selected accredited security operators.
In such cases costs will almost certainly fall on the venue hirer.

An exemption applies only if the venue owner wishes it to be applied.

John B

Steven Pampling wrote:

> 
> In article <ditbu2$1vc$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>, Manky Badger
> <spam@puritanDOTfreeserve.FULLSTOPcoSPOTuk> wrote:
> 
> > Could I ask for a more realistic budget, please. The whole idea of a
> > beer festival looks too good a fund raiser to ignore.
> 
> Done properly it can be. That's why people hang on to the expertise
> developed over the course of a few decades.
> 
> --
> Steve Pampling

On Sat, 15 Oct 2005 23:25:01 +0100, 
   	       Steven Pampling  wrote:

> In article <dirsdp$sju$1@news6.svr.pol.co.uk>, Manky Badger
><spam@puritanDOTfreeserve.FULLSTOPcoSPOTuk> wrote:
>> To take some of your points: Your wastage doesn't arise.
>
> Ah, a man who has been through the <select big brewer> training school.
> So how many pints were you looking to get out of the 72 pint container?
>
>> You deliberately under-order so as not to have wastage.
>
> You miss the point. It's what you get out of a cask and the spills. Or were
> you going for the shady method of tipping back?


Also I have not heard any talk of drinks (and maybe food) for the people 
staffing the festival.  This is added cost which no-one has factored in.

-- 
Andy Leighton => andyl@azaal.plus.com
"The Lord is my shepherd, but we still lost the sheep dog trials" 
   - Robert Rankin, _They Came And Ate Us_

> Far from it.
> Amongst other things I've twice fund-raised for & helped organise a three
> week trip for scouts to the USA.
> OK - to recalculate
>
> Call it 140 for 72 pints. That's (near enough) 1.95 a pint.
> Say you get in thirty barrels - that's 30 * 140  = 4200
> Sell it at 1.25 per half pint (2.50 per pint) that's 5400
> Minus your initial outlay (4200) gives a profit of 1200
>
> To take some of your points:
> Your wastage doesn't arise. You deliberately under-order so as not to have
> wastage.
> Location charge - as discussed in another thread - find a sensible
location.
> There are lots that don't charge a fortune.
> Food - as location - find somewhere that doesn't demand a concession.
> Glasses - buy a load of placcy ones from Tesco.
> VAT, etc- even allowing for 50% we're still  over 500 in pocket.
>
> From these figures I shall be running a beer festival to help finance the
> scout trip planned to Alaska in 2008 !


I ran 2 beer festivals during college (in winter '95 and '96) with some
believing they were to be a money making exercise.  The previous year had
made money after they raised the prices on the year before, but I put them
down again since I didn't see any reason to do much more than break even...

Loose Summary of Costs:
Glasses (printed) approx 1.50 a pop, for an expected attendance of maybe
500.  This is supposed to make the money as you serve only in official
glasses and sell them for 3quid a go as they come in.  However, they were
ordered far too enthusiastically, maybe 800 or so.
Beer - Brakspears ordinary was the only thing we could get for as little as
60 a firkin.  The worst was Orkney Skullsplitter around 90.  Was told to
expect 63 drinkable (perhaps saleable with staff beer) pints.  Average 75?
per firkin.  Ordered around 50 (55 the first year - way too much; 48 the
next, about right)
Scaffolding rental to put it all up on - around 100 quid.
Taps, etc - Some fool threw them all away between years, so probably spent
50 quid on those.  Again, a publican's involvement is likely very key.
We had an engraver bring his setup from a place in Wembley, and he'd put
your initials on your glass for a few quid, we hired him for the day for
~100quid, and have no idea how many engravings he did, but probably broke
even there.
We might have spent 50 quid on a local troop (collective noun?) of Morris
dancers too
No venue or license costs - perks of running within a university - assume
you have access to a free scout hut and maybe a friendly local publican
who'll help sort the license?
We had some cider too, it's cheap and due to ABV we sell it at the high
price.  So we'll disregard right now.

University catering ran the food end, so no money to be made there.  Potato
and rice based things are nearly free and can be sold reasonably at a good
profit with volunteer staff.

So, we have 3150 pints to sell, costing 3750 plus incidentals of 300
(=1.23/pint), plus VAT, which we basically pay only on the difference
between the purchase and sale price, as I understood it.

Assuming you sell everything (and that's a big if...)
1.50/pint gives you (4725 -(4725-3750)*.175)= 700quid to pay for other
incidentals
2.00/pint gives you 2100quid to make some money with.

I stayed away from the finances of the thing, and so I've never known how
much money was made or lost.
In fact, on the day itself, I collared my co-organiser who'd barely lifted a
finger all the previous weeks, told him he was in charge for the day, and I
spent the day drinking with a young lady I'd seen around college and had
made it clear to her that this was an event not to be missed.  She clearly
enjoyed the attention (and I guess the free beer couldn't have done any
harm), so I ended up leaving with her, and marrying her 7 years later!

The mention of the festival on my CV then got me my first job, so there's
much to be had out of this running a festival game.

"Simon Cooper"  wrote in message 
news:ucSdnT01dKogI8neRVn-1g@comcast.com...

>> Far from it.
>> Amongst other things I've twice fund-raised for & helped organise a three
>> week trip for scouts to the USA.
>> OK - to recalculate
>>
>> Call it 140 for 72 pints. That's (near enough) 1.95 a pint.
>> Say you get in thirty barrels - that's 30 * 140  = 4200
>> Sell it at 1.25 per half pint (2.50 per pint) that's 5400
>> Minus your initial outlay (4200) gives a profit of 1200
>>
>> To take some of your points:
>> Your wastage doesn't arise. You deliberately under-order so as not to 
>> have
>> wastage.
>> Location charge - as discussed in another thread - find a sensible
> location.
>> There are lots that don't charge a fortune.
>> Food - as location - find somewhere that doesn't demand a concession.
>> Glasses - buy a load of placcy ones from Tesco.
>> VAT, etc- even allowing for 50% we're still  over 500 in pocket.
>>
>> From these figures I shall be running a beer festival to help finance the
>> scout trip planned to Alaska in 2008 !
>
> I ran 2 beer festivals during college (in winter '95 and '96) with some
> believing they were to be a money making exercise.  The previous year had
> made money after they raised the prices on the year before, but I put them
> down again since I didn't see any reason to do much more than break 
> even...
>
> Loose Summary of Costs:
> Glasses (printed) approx 1.50 a pop, for an expected attendance of maybe
> 500.  This is supposed to make the money as you serve only in official
> glasses and sell them for 3quid a go as they come in.  However, they were
> ordered far too enthusiastically, maybe 800 or so.
> Beer - Brakspears ordinary was the only thing we could get for as little 
> as
> 60 a firkin.  The worst was Orkney Skullsplitter around 90.  Was told to
> expect 63 drinkable (perhaps saleable with staff beer) pints.  Average 75?
> per firkin.  Ordered around 50 (55 the first year - way too much; 48 the
> next, about right)
> Scaffolding rental to put it all up on - around 100 quid.
> Taps, etc - Some fool threw them all away between years, so probably spent
> 50 quid on those.  Again, a publican's involvement is likely very key.
> We had an engraver bring his setup from a place in Wembley, and he'd put
> your initials on your glass for a few quid, we hired him for the day for
> ~100quid, and have no idea how many engravings he did, but probably broke
> even there.
> We might have spent 50 quid on a local troop (collective noun?) of Morris
> dancers too
> No venue or license costs - perks of running within a university - assume
> you have access to a free scout hut and maybe a friendly local publican
> who'll help sort the license?
> We had some cider too, it's cheap and due to ABV we sell it at the high
> price.  So we'll disregard right now.
>
> University catering ran the food end, so no money to be made there. 
> Potato
> and rice based things are nearly free and can be sold reasonably at a good
> profit with volunteer staff.
>
> So, we have 3150 pints to sell, costing 3750 plus incidentals of 300
> (=1.23/pint), plus VAT, which we basically pay only on the difference
> between the purchase and sale price, as I understood it.
>
> Assuming you sell everything (and that's a big if...)
> 1.50/pint gives you (4725 -(4725-3750)*.175)= 700quid to pay for other
> incidentals
> 2.00/pint gives you 2100quid to make some money with.
>
> I stayed away from the finances of the thing, and so I've never known how
> much money was made or lost.
> In fact, on the day itself, I collared my co-organiser who'd barely lifted 
> a
> finger all the previous weeks, told him he was in charge for the day, and 
> I
> spent the day drinking with a young lady I'd seen around college and had
> made it clear to her that this was an event not to be missed.  She clearly
> enjoyed the attention (and I guess the free beer couldn't have done any
> harm), so I ended up leaving with her, and marrying her 7 years later!
>
> The mention of the festival on my CV then got me my first job, so there's
> much to be had out of this running a festival game.
>


Cheers for that - bit more informative than some of the rest :o)

In article <dj642a$4ml$1@news7.svr.pol.co.uk>,
   Manky Badger <spam@puritanDOTfreeserve.FULLSTOPcoSPOTuk> wrote:


> Cheers for that - bit more informative than some of the rest :o) 


I've just checked back and I didn't say what I frequently say - work at a
CAMRA beer festival and you will find out what can and can't be done to
make money. The point is that simply telling people things doesn't work,
they forget bits and so do the people doing the telling. Work there and you
have all day (over several days of the lead up and then the open sessions)
to find things out.
It can be incredibly simple if you know and have the knowledge well
ingrained (to the point of being habit) but it is also incredibly simple to
go wrong.

-- 
Steve Pampling