I'm being driven out says second expert to link autism and jabs
By Daniel Foggo
(Filed: 02/10/2005)
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/10/02/naut02.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/10/02/ixhome.html
A former government adviser who has controversially linked infant
vaccines to autism in children claims she is the victim of a
disciplinary action "witch-hunt".

The child psychologist Lisa Blakemore-Brown believes that her
outspokenness has made her enemies in the pharmaceutical business and
in the Government.

Ms Blakemore-Brown, 57, has expounded the theory that diphtheria,
tetanus and pertussis innoculations routinely given to babies at two
months could be linked to autism and a range of allergies. She is
facing disciplinary charges after being officially accused by the
British Psychological Society of being potentially unfit to practise
and of being paranoid.

She says she is the victim of a "witch-hunt" and believes her situation
echoes that of Dr Andrew Wakefield, the gastroenterologist whose
research linked the measles, mumps and rubella vaccine to a national
rise in autism.

This resulted in a widespread campaign to discredit his work and
culminated in his being forced out of his job.

Ms Blakemore-Brown has been ordered to attend a confidential hearing
later this month where a panel will decide on her future.

Until last year, the DTP innoculations given to British babies
contained a perservative called thiomersal, which is made of 50 per
cent mercury.

Ms Blakemore-Brown has backed the stance of several scientists who
claimed that excess levels of mercury in an infant's body could be a
precursor for autism.

She has also widely criticised the medical establishment for falsely
accusing cot death mothers of murder.

She has denounced what she says is a tendency within health agencies to
label the parents of genuinely autistic children as having Munchausen's
Syndrome By Proxy.

This is a controversial condition widely diagnosed by the now disgraced
professors Roy Meadows and David Southall.

Between 1996 and 2002 Ms Blakemore-Brown repeatedly wrote to Tony
Blair, the prime minister, and ministers warning that miscarriages of
justice were happening to women convicted of killing their babies as a
result of having MSBP, when in fact the fatalities were cot deaths.

A number of women jailed for this have now had their convictions
overturned on appeal.

Now Ms Blakemore-Brown, who has works as an independent educational
psychologist assessing the needs of children and adults with autism and
Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder, says that a whispering
campaign against her has caused her to lose business.

As a member of the BPS - of which she is also an associated fellow -
since 1987, if she is deemed unfit to practise she will be stripped of
her chartered status and will in effect become an outcast within the
profession.
"I have made enemies in the past 10 years, of that there is no doubt,"
she said last night. "Things have gone on which seem beyond
coincidence, such as people hacking into my e-mail account and some
years ago a woman stole documents from my house and tried to access my
bank account."

The decision by the BPS to bring Ms Blakemore-Brown before a "fitness
to practise" hearing stems from a complaint made by a client who
alleged that she failed to liaise properly with her after assessing her
son for ADHD.

Last night, the BPS refused to comment.

I am shocked at peoples response with obvious lack of knowledge, do you
think that someone with so many years of profesional and first hand
experience would 'bandy' false off the top of your head type scare
mongering .......... I don't think so. These conclusions have been
drawn from years and years of research, hard work and having the
passion and drive to change something that could potentially 'touch' us
all.

Lynn

"lynndb"  wrote in message 
news:1128954010.588052.312910@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...

>
>
> I am shocked at peoples response with obvious lack of knowledge, do you
> think that someone with so many years of profesional and first hand
> experience would 'bandy' false off the top of your head type scare
> mongering .......... I don't think so.


Sure, sure... http://briandeer.com/mmr/lancet-summary.htm


These conclusions have been

> drawn from years and years of research, hard work and having the
> passion and drive to change something that could potentially 'touch' us
> all.


Would you mind sharing what some of that "research" was?  We all know that 
Wakefield's research was bought and paid for by a law firm... and that some 
"research" is mostly in the form of a salespitch, 
http://www.kevinleitch.co.uk/wp/?p=234 ---

BUT... that real people have been hurt or killed by some of this "research":
http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/05237/559756.stm

http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=1943892005

http://www.mercurynews.com/mld/mercurynews/news/breaking_news/12692850.htm

http://www.healthwatch-uk.org/hw59.htm#autism


Here is some of the research I much prefer:

http://www.nap.edu/catalog/10208.html
http://pediatrics.aappublications.org/cgi/content/full/112/3/604
http://content.nejm.org/cgi/content/abstract/347/19/1477


>
> Lynn
> 

Jeff wrote:

> "john"  wrote in message
> news:1128843744.707247.10080@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
> > I'm being driven out says second expert to link autism and jabs
> (...)
>
> > She ... believes her situation
> > echoes that of Dr Andrew Wakefield, the gastroenterologist whose
> > research linked the measles, mumps and rubella vaccine to a national
> > rise in autism.
>
> True. Both are nuts who have little evidence for their beliefs.
>
> 'nough said.
>
> Jeff


And, of course, someone without medical credentials should be trusted
to make such a determination, right Jeff?  

PeterB

In article ,
PeterB  wrote:

>
>David Wright wrote:
>> In article ,
>> PeterB  wrote:
>> >
>> >Jeff wrote:
>> >> "john"  wrote in message
>> >> news:1128843744.707247.10080@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>> >> > I'm being driven out says second expert to link autism and jabs
>> >> (...)
>> >>
>> >> > She ... believes her situation
>> >> > echoes that of Dr Andrew Wakefield, the gastroenterologist whose
>> >> > research linked the measles, mumps and rubella vaccine to a national
>> >> > rise in autism.
>> >>
>> >> True. Both are nuts who have little evidence for their beliefs.
>> >>
>> >> 'nough said.
>> >>
>> >> Jeff
>> >
>> >And, of course, someone without medical credentials should be trusted
>> >to make such a determination, right Jeff?
>>
>> Like you, PB?  Jeff, at least, has an MD.  How 'bout you?
>
>Unless he is involved in vaccine research, his comment as an MD
>(assuming he is one) is even more reprehensible.  It isn't appropriate
>for medically trained persons to refer to others, especially
>researchers, as "nuts."  


Why not, if the description is accurate?  Would it somehow be
preferable to do it using equivalent medical terminology, which adds
up to the same thing?

  -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net 
     These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
     "If you can't say something nice, then sit next to me."
                                 -- Alice Roosevelt Longworth

Is no one concerned about receiving a vaccine preserved with
Thimerasol?

In article ,
eml  wrote:

>Is no one concerned about receiving a vaccine preserved with
>Thimerasol?


1)  If you're an adult, it doesn't matter, even if you're an adult
    acting like a frightened child.

2)  There are thimerosal-free versions of flu vaccine made.

  -- David Wright :: alphabeta at prodigy.net 
     These are my opinions only, but they're almost always correct.
     "If you can't say something nice, then sit next to me."
                                 -- Alice Roosevelt Longworth

'Sales Pitch' !!!... Do you know how many children Lisa Blakemore-Brown
has helped, how many cases of obvious vaccine damage she has seen.
'Nuts' she most certainly isnt. She is fighting for something she knows
is right and certain people are scared by this.

"eml"  wrote in message 
news:1128970352.354962.141530@g47g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

> Is no one concerned about receiving a vaccine preserved with
> Thimerasol?
>


What are the quanities?  What levels are you worried about?  Do you even 
know what they are?  See:
http://www.fda.gov/cber/vaccine/thimerosal.htm

What are the storage conditions?  Does everyone have the luxery of 
refridgeration or even the power to accomplish that?  How good would a 
tetanus vaccine supply be after a major hurricane like Katrina or earthquake 
that just hit Pakistan?  You may want to read this:
http://www.who.int/biologicals/publications/trs/areas/vaccines/thiomersal 
especially this part,  "Experience shows that eliminating or reducing 
thiomersal from an existing product can have some unexpected effects on 
vaccine quality, safety and
efficacy. Effects on vaccine stability might also be expected. "

"lynndb"  wrote in message 
news:1128971110.276634.79760@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

>
> 'Sales Pitch' !!!... Do you know how many children Lisa Blakemore-Brown
> has helped, how many cases of obvious vaccine damage she has seen.
> 'Nuts' she most certainly isnt. She is fighting for something she knows
> is right and certain people are scared by this.
>


No.  Why don't you tell us with some nice verifiable references.

"lynndb"  wrote in message 
news:1128971110.276634.79760@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

>
> 'Sales Pitch' !!!... Do you know how many children Lisa Blakemore-Brown
> has helped, how many cases of obvious vaccine damage she has seen.
> 'Nuts' she most certainly isnt. She is fighting for something she knows
> is right and certain people are scared by this.
>


The purpose of science is the sorting out of the "obvious" from the true.
-- 


--Rich

Recommended websites:

 http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
 http://www.acahf.org.au
 http://www.quackwatch.org/
 http://www.skeptic.com/
 http://www.csicop.org/

Ilena Rose wrote:

> Typical behavior of the Quacks to go after scientists and medical
> doctors (licensed ones, not like Barrett) 


There is absolutely no evidence that during the over 35 years Dr. 
Barrett had maintained his license that there was any complaints or 
disciplinary actions against him.

How do I know? If there had been, you, Bolen, et al would have plastered 
it all over the world.

He is a *retired* physician and allowed his license to go dormant as he 
is not treating any patients. To say otherwise is utterly misleading.

.... in every and all ways

> possible. Weedkiller just follows orders from her 'superiors' LOL LOL
> Barrett & Polevoy and posts their harassments here.
> 
> Typically,after the Quacks go after good doctors for years, attempting
> to destroy their lives ... 


Kadile, Suster....

the biggest "sin" they find is some

> questionable bookeeping adn then BarrettWeedkiller posts about it like
> it's her banner of pride.


It is not questionable bookeeping. It is the maintaining of incorrect or 
inadequate medical records. In medicine, proper record keeping is an 
absolute essential to maintain quality care.


> Other times ... they have caused unconscienable problems ... and the
> doctors are totally proven to have been harassed. Dr. Sinaiko was on
> the these.


Sinaiko was proerly charged at the time. He settled and got his license 
back due to lapse of time.


> On Sun, 9 Oct 2005 11:13:53 -0400, "Nana Weedkiller"
>  wrote:
> 
> 
>>Here's another waiting for a decision.
>>
>>http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/10/09/nmmr09.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/10/09/ixhome.html
>>
>>GP who gave MMR warning faces sack
>>By Daniel Foggo
>>(Filed: 09/10/2005)
>>
>>A doctor who has spoken of the possible dangers of children receiving the 
>>measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) and other vaccinations has been charged with 
>>serious professional misconduct by the General Medical Council.
>>
>>Dr Jayne Donegan, 47, is being disciplined over her decision to give expert 
>>court testimony on the issue. Her situation echoes the plight of Dr Andrew 
>>Wakefield, the gastro-enterologist forced to resign after his evidence 
>>linking the MMR jab to autism in children angered the government, drug 
>>industry and medical establishment.
>>
> 
> 

LadyLollipop wrote:

> "HCN"  wrote
> 
> <snip diversion>


It is not a diversion to ppoint out that this physician is following in 
Wakefield's slime which caused a massive epidemic in Great Britain. Only 
a child hater would think otherwise.


> 
>>"john"  wrote in message 
>>news:1128843744.707247.10080@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>>I'm being driven out says second expert to link autism and jabs
>>>By Daniel Foggo
>>>(Filed: 02/10/2005)
>>>http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/10/02/naut02.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/10/02/ixhome.html
>>
>>
>>
> 
> 

lynndb wrote:

> 
> I am shocked at peoples response with obvious lack of knowledge, do you
> think that someone with so many years of profesional and first hand
> experience would 'bandy' false off the top of your head type scare
> mongering .......... I don't think so. 


Yes, I do think so. The physician in question is following in the slime 
steps of Andy Wakefield, who has been totally dicredited for rotten 
science and lousier ethics.

These conclusions have been

> drawn from years and years of research, hard work and having the
> passion and drive to change something that could potentially 'touch' us
> all.

eml wrote:

> Is no one concerned about receiving a vaccine preserved with
> Thimerasol?
> 


Nope. Not in the slightest. I had my thimerosal laced flu shot on 
Saturday, and, much to the chagrin of many in these groups,

I AM STILL HERE.

"eml"  wrote:


>Is no one concerned about receiving a vaccine preserved with
>Thimerasol?


No.

Which vaccines would they be?
-- 
Peter Bowditch aa #2243
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au
Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

"lynndb"  wrote:


>
>'Sales Pitch' !!!... Do you know how many children Lisa Blakemore-Brown
>has helped,


Yes. None.


>how many cases of obvious vaccine damage she has seen.


Yes. None.


>'Nuts' she most certainly isnt. She is fighting for something she knows
>is right and certain people are scared by this.


Scared? What is scary is that people might believe this nut and put
their children at risk by avoiding vaccination.
-- 
Peter Bowditch aa #2243
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au
Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

I am not anti-vac !!, both my children had the MMR jabs. I also
understand that a widespread epidemic could potentially be tragic. Im
just shocked at how blinkered some people have become, why try to
strike someone off when they devote their entire lives to changing
others lives for the better, and its all well and good going along with
the research we are given to read, but surely when you actually see
children who are damaged by vaccine, each and everyone of us would want
to start asking questions and find out why !!

lynndb wrote:


> I am not anti-vac !!, both my children had the MMR jabs. I also
> understand that a widespread epidemic could potentially be tragic. Im
> just shocked at how blinkered some people have become, why try to
> strike someone off when they devote their entire lives to changing
> others lives for the better, and its all well and good going along with
> the research we are given to read, but surely when you actually see
> children who are damaged by vaccine, each and everyone of us would want
> to start asking questions and find out why !!
> 


I for one did not claim you were anti-vac. I just noted that despite 
your claim that it seems you only get to hear one side, you obviously 
got information from both sides, therefor falsifying that claim. And the 
immensily flawed study claiming a link between vaccines and autism got 
way, way more attention then followup studies which showed why the 
original study was flawed and that found no link at all.

And yes, surely when you actually see children who *seem to be* (!!) 
damaged by vaccines you start to ask questions. And these questions were 
asked, matters were researched and it turns out that as far as autism is 
concerned, there is zero evidence to be found that vaccines cause 
autism. The evidence we have clearly shows that if we actually want to 
find a cause for autism, we should stop wasting valuable time and money 
into looking at vaccines as a cause. Any further waste of sparse 
resources on research in that direction will distract from finding the 
real cause of autism and is therefor damaging to all people suffering 
from autism.

lynndb wrote:

> I think if you took the time to speak with many parents of children
> with learning disabilities, who have spent years fighting the 'system'
> we have in place to educate a 'normal' child, you may find that Lisa
> has changed things beyond expectation for their children, giving them
> hope and the help they need for a happier future.
> 
> Many of her cases have involved children who were happy healthy
> children the day before they were vaccinated, then turned into children
> who could no longer speak or function as they had previously ... could
> this be purely coincidence !!!. Im sure that the vaccine does not
> affect each and everyone of us that decides to have it, but children
> that are suseptable to a reaction can be affected, why should we put
> our childrens lives at risk in this way ?, all that is being asked is
> that fair research is done, and that it is accepted that it can be
> damaging. It should be every parents right to know the truth and have
> the choice to make a balanced decision as to what we subject our
> children to.


You clearly accept that thimerosal causes autism, and I strongly beleive 
that you would dismiss any research showing no link as not being "fiar 
research."

lynndb wrote:

> Do you not think that sometimes we are only given the information that
> certain people want us to hear ?? It is curious that the government
> have a huge fund for vaccine damage considering many think it doesnt
> happen !



No sequitur. However, several large epidemiological studies on various 
populations have shown that there is no link. The findings have been 
replicated and duplicated, which is one of the hallmarks of scientific 
accuracy.

"lynndb"  wrote in message 
news:1129017905.882231.290970@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...

>I think if you took the time to speak with many parents of children
> with learning disabilities, who have spent years fighting the 'system'
> we have in place to educate a 'normal' child, you may find that Lisa
> has changed things beyond expectation for their children, giving them
> hope and the help they need for a happier future.
>
> Many of her cases have involved children who were happy healthy
> children the day before they were vaccinated, then turned into children
> who could no longer speak or function as they had previously ... could
> this be purely coincidence !!!. Im sure that the vaccine does not
> affect each and everyone of us that decides to have it, but children
> that are suseptable to a reaction can be affected, why should we put
> our childrens lives at risk in this way ?, all that is being asked is
> that fair research is done, and that it is accepted that it can be
> damaging. It should be every parents right to know the truth and have
> the choice to make a balanced decision as to what we subject our
> children to.
>


One major caveat:  Ms. Blackmore-Brown is a psychologist.  This means she is 
not a medical doctor and if she is "diagnosing" some kind of "vaccine 
damage" due to thimerosal she is going beyond her training.  If she is in 
fact trying to play "doctor" then she should be disciplined (and a quick 
Google search finds that this is not the first time that she has been 
checked out).

I have heard of speech therapists who have actually tried to "diagnose" 
medical problems or have tried to refer children to chiropractors, cranial 
sacral therapists or even to recommend supplements.  This is also OUTside 
their boundaries, and can bring their licensing board upon them (especially 
if they have a relationship with any of the outside providers).

Do you have any papers written by this person?  Do you have any journal 
references on this "research" you speak of (forget Wakefield or anything 
written in "Medical Hypothesis"... the former because his "research was 
bought and paid for by lawyers, and the latter requires you to look up the 
definition of the word "hypothesis").

HCN wrote:

> "lynndb"  wrote in message 
> news:1129017905.882231.290970@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
> 
>>I think if you took the time to speak with many parents of children
>>with learning disabilities, who have spent years fighting the 'system'
>>we have in place to educate a 'normal' child, you may find that Lisa
>>has changed things beyond expectation for their children, giving them
>>hope and the help they need for a happier future.
>>
>>Many of her cases have involved children who were happy healthy
>>children the day before they were vaccinated, then turned into children
>>who could no longer speak or function as they had previously ... could
>>this be purely coincidence !!!. Im sure that the vaccine does not
>>affect each and everyone of us that decides to have it, but children
>>that are suseptable to a reaction can be affected, why should we put
>>our childrens lives at risk in this way ?, all that is being asked is
>>that fair research is done, and that it is accepted that it can be
>>damaging. It should be every parents right to know the truth and have
>>the choice to make a balanced decision as to what we subject our
>>children to.
>>
> 
> 
> One major caveat:  Ms. Blackmore-Brown is a psychologist.  This means she is 
> not a medical doctor and if she is "diagnosing" some kind of "vaccine 
> damage" due to thimerosal she is going beyond her training.  If she is in 
> fact trying to play "doctor" then she should be disciplined (and a quick 
> Google search finds that this is not the first time that she has been 
> checked out).
> 
> I have heard of speech therapists who have actually tried to "diagnose" 
> medical problems or have tried to refer children to chiropractors, cranial 
> sacral therapists or even to recommend supplements.  This is also OUTside 
> their boundaries, and can bring their licensing board upon them (especially 
> if they have a relationship with any of the outside providers).
> 
> Do you have any papers written by this person?  


Google Scholar:

Your search - Lisa Blackmore-Brown - did not match any articles.

Your search - Blackmore-Brown - did not match any articles.

PublicMed:

The following term was not found and ignored: Blackmore-Brown.

http://www.highbeam.com/ref/ref_search.asp?M=Y&more=1

No results found for Blackmore-Brown..


Do you have any journal

> references on this "research" you speak of (forget Wakefield or anything 
> written in "Medical Hypothesis"... the former because his "research was 
> bought and paid for by lawyers, and the latter requires you to look up the 
> definition of the word "hypothesis"). 
> 
> 

lynndb wrote:

> I think if you took the time to speak with many parents of children
> with learning disabilities, who have spent years fighting the 'system'
> we have in place to educate a 'normal' child, you may find that Lisa
> has changed things beyond expectation for their children, giving them
> hope and the help they need for a happier future.
>
> Many of her cases have involved children who were happy healthy
> children the day before they were vaccinated, then turned into children
> who could no longer speak or function as they had previously ... could
> this be purely coincidence !!!. Im sure that the vaccine does not
> affect each and everyone of us that decides to have it, but children
> that are suseptable to a reaction can be affected, why should we put
> our childrens lives at risk in this way ?, all that is being asked is
> that fair research is done, and that it is accepted that it can be
> damaging. It should be every parents right to know the truth and have
> the choice to make a balanced decision as to what we subject our
> children to.


Exactly right, Lynn.  If you read the responses of our resident pharma
bloggers to your comment, however, you will see why this has been an
uphill battle.  You are not seeing the comments of casual participants
regarding vaccine, but reps for industry paid to hold onto as much
"mind share" as they can.  When enough people wake up, things can
finally change.  

PeterB

PeterB wrote:

> lynndb wrote:
> 
>>I think if you took the time to speak with many parents of children
>>with learning disabilities, who have spent years fighting the 'system'
>>we have in place to educate a 'normal' child, you may find that Lisa
>>has changed things beyond expectation for their children, giving them
>>hope and the help they need for a happier future.
>>
>>Many of her cases have involved children who were happy healthy
>>children the day before they were vaccinated, then turned into children
>>who could no longer speak or function as they had previously ... could
>>this be purely coincidence !!!. Im sure that the vaccine does not
>>affect each and everyone of us that decides to have it, but children
>>that are suseptable to a reaction can be affected, why should we put
>>our childrens lives at risk in this way ?, all that is being asked is
>>that fair research is done, and that it is accepted that it can be
>>damaging. It should be every parents right to know the truth and have
>>the choice to make a balanced decision as to what we subject our
>>children to.
> 
> 
> Exactly right, Lynn.  If you read the responses of our resident pharma
> bloggers to your comment, however, you will see why this has been an
> uphill battle.  You are not seeing the comments of casual participants
> regarding vaccine, but reps for industry paid to hold onto as much
> "mind share" as they can.  When enough people wake up, things can
> finally change.  
> 
> PeterB
> 


For the unaware:
please note that PeterB is person with a psychiatric disorder of which 
paranoia and delusions of grandeur are a part. He thinks 'Big 
Pharma'(whoever they are) is paying people to post on newsgroups. This 
is the paranoia part. He also thinks he is so important that 'Big 
Pharma' has a whole group of people in their service to respond to his 
posts. That's the delusion of grandeur part. For this, he invented a 
whole new word, 'pharma blogger', ignoring the accepted definition of 
'blogging' and 'blogger'. He also has his own definition of the word 
'casual' and who knows what else. Please note that PeterB has no 
evidence to back up this claim, or any others he has. All he has, and 
all he apparently needs, are his opinions.
With regard to the evidence of a link between thimerosal and autism:
please note that for PeterB, one immensely flawed study done by a lawyer 
involved in suing vaccine producers for causing autism with their 
products (and therefor having a big stake in the outcome) is perfectly 
acceptable evidence for a link between thimerosal and autism, while all 
the followup studies, who were independant, in his mind were all done by 
'Big Pharma' and because they had a big stake in the outcome, the 
studies are bunk. Such are the logical thinking skills of PeterB.
You will also notice that in reply to this post, he will not come up 
with any coherent arguments, but will simply accuse me of being a 
'pharma blogger', as if that will make the facts against his case go away.

PeterB wrote:


> lynndb wrote:
> > I think if you took the time to speak with many parents of children
> > with learning disabilities, who have spent years fighting the 'system'
> > we have in place to educate a 'normal' child, you may find that Lisa
> > has changed things beyond expectation for their children, giving them
> > hope and the help they need for a happier future.
> >
> > Many of her cases have involved children who were happy healthy
> > children the day before they were vaccinated, then turned into children
> > who could no longer speak or function as they had previously ... could
> > this be purely coincidence !!!. Im sure that the vaccine does not
> > affect each and everyone of us that decides to have it, but children
> > that are suseptable to a reaction can be affected, why should we put
> > our childrens lives at risk in this way ?, all that is being asked is
> > that fair research is done, and that it is accepted that it can be
> > damaging. It should be every parents right to know the truth and have
> > the choice to make a balanced decision as to what we subject our
> > children to.
>
> Exactly right, Lynn.  If you read the responses of our resident pharma
> bloggers to your comment, however, you will see why this has been an
> uphill battle.  You are not seeing the comments of casual participants
> regarding vaccine, but reps for industry paid to hold onto as much
> "mind share" as they can.  When enough people wake up, things can
> finally change.


I see. PeteyB does not address the fact that people have commented on
the research that has been done and that has shown that there is no
link between vaccinations and autism. Because that's not part of his
agenda.

He still has no evidence to back up his claims that vaccines are only
10% effective, nor does he have any evidence that anyone on this
newsgroup is paid by industry, yet he continues to spout his rubbish.

What a plonker.

Cathy
 

> 
> PeterB

PeterB wrote:

> lynndb wrote:
> 
>>I think if you took the time to speak with many parents of children
>>with learning disabilities, who have spent years fighting the 'system'
>>we have in place to educate a 'normal' child, you may find that Lisa
>>has changed things beyond expectation for their children, giving them
>>hope and the help they need for a happier future.
>>
>>Many of her cases have involved children who were happy healthy
>>children the day before they were vaccinated, then turned into children
>>who could no longer speak or function as they had previously ... could
>>this be purely coincidence !!!. Im sure that the vaccine does not
>>affect each and everyone of us that decides to have it, but children
>>that are suseptable to a reaction can be affected, why should we put
>>our childrens lives at risk in this way ?, all that is being asked is
>>that fair research is done, and that it is accepted that it can be
>>damaging. It should be every parents right to know the truth and have
>>the choice to make a balanced decision as to what we subject our
>>children to.
> 
> 
> Exactly right, Lynn.  If you read the responses of our resident pharma
> bloggers to your comment, however, you will see why this has been an
> uphill battle.  You are not seeing the comments of casual participants
> regarding vaccine, but reps for industry paid to hold onto as much
> "mind share" as they can.  When enough people wake up, things can
> finally change.  


Petey, you should post a disclaimer when smearing people:

"THIS IS MY PET THEORY AND THE EXISTENCE OF PHARMABLOGGER, A WORD I MADE 
UP, HAS NEVER BEEN PROVEN. I HAVE A NEED TO DISCREDIT THOSE WHO DISAGREE 
WITH ME, SINCE I CANNOT FIND ANY FACTS THAT SHOW THAT THEY ARE WRONG."

PeterB wrote:

> lynndb wrote:
> 
>>I think if you took the time to speak with many parents of children
>>with learning disabilities, who have spent years fighting the 'system'
>>we have in place to educate a 'normal' child, you may find that Lisa
>>has changed things beyond expectation for their children, giving them
>>hope and the help they need for a happier future.
>>
>>Many of her cases have involved children who were happy healthy
>>children the day before they were vaccinated, then turned into children
>>who could no longer speak or function as they had previously ... could
>>this be purely coincidence !!!. Im sure that the vaccine does not
>>affect each and everyone of us that decides to have it, but children
>>that are suseptable to a reaction can be affected, why should we put
>>our childrens lives at risk in this way ?, all that is being asked is
>>that fair research is done, and that it is accepted that it can be
>>damaging. It should be every parents right to know the truth and have
>>the choice to make a balanced decision as to what we subject our
>>children to.
> 
> 
> Exactly right, Lynn.  If you read the responses of our resident pharma
> bloggers to your comment, however, you will see why this has been an
> uphill battle.  You are not seeing the comments of casual participants
> regarding vaccine, but reps for industry paid to hold onto as much
> "mind share" as they can.  When enough people wake up, things can
> finally change.  


This yarn was already written and it appeared on Broadway.

"Mark Probert"  wrote in message 
news:bTP2f.2605$Hm3.1735@fe09.lga...

> HCN wrote:

....>> Do you have any papers written by this person?

>
> Google Scholar:
>
> Your search - Lisa Blackmore-Brown - did not match any articles.
>
> Your search - Blackmore-Brown - did not match any articles.
>
> PublicMed:
>
> The following term was not found and ignored: Blackmore-Brown.
>
> http://www.highbeam.com/ref/ref_search.asp?M=Y&more=1
>
> No results found for Blackmore-Brown..
>


(I kind of assumed that would be the results.  I guessed that the "research" 
touted was a bunch of hot air.... much like many use Buttar's testimony to a 
bunch of gullible polititians as "proof" his cream works).




>
> Do you have any journal
>> references on this "research" you speak of (forget Wakefield or anything 
>> written in "Medical Hypothesis"... the former because his "research was 
>> bought and paid for by lawyers, and the latter requires you to look up 
>> the definition of the word "hypothesis"). 

"cathyb"  wrote in message 
news:1129018282.779420.34800@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

>
> lynndb wrote:
>> I think if you took the time to speak with many parents of children
>> with learning disabilities, who have spent years fighting the 'system'
>> we have in place to educate a 'normal' child, you may find that Lisa
>> has changed things beyond expectation for their children, giving them
>> hope and the help they need for a happier future.
>>
>> Many of her cases have involved children who were happy healthy
>> children the day before they were vaccinated, then turned into children
>> who could no longer speak or function as they had previously ... could
>> this be purely coincidence !!!. Im sure that the vaccine does not
>> affect each and everyone of us that decides to have it, but children
>> that are suseptable to a reaction can be affected, why should we put
>> our childrens lives at risk in this way ?, all that is being asked is
>> that fair research is done, and that it is accepted that it can be
>> damaging. It should be every parents right to know the truth and have
>> the choice to make a balanced decision as to what we subject our
>> children to.
>
> The fair research has been done. Over and over, yet no matter how often
> the studies show no link between, for instance, autism and vaccination,
> the 'nuts' refuse to accept it.
>
> Cathy


Actually that's NOT true, you can see which group calls names.


   http://www.flu.org.cn/news/2004986362.htm
      Thimerosal,New study reopens debate on vaccinations
      Published: Sep ,8,2004 16:21 PM
      By ###
      Special to The Wall Street Journal & Medicalnewstoday



By Tara Parker-Pope
The Wall Street Journal

Just a few months after the nation's top medical adviser rejected a link
between vaccines and autism, a mouse study has reignited the debate and
raised new fears among parents considering vaccinations and flu shots for
their kids.


For years, a cadre of parents and physicians have contended that thimerosal,
an ethyl-mercury compound that has been one of the most widely used vaccine
preservatives, is partly responsible for an apparent rise in autism in
recent decades. But broad population studies haven't supported the claim. In
May, a major report from the Institute of Medicine's Immunization Safety
Review Committee rejected a link between autism and vaccines.



But today, a congressional committee will review a June study from Columbia
University, which found that a preservative used in vaccines can cause
autism-like symptoms in a specific strain of mice. The research raises
questions about whether some people might be genetically vulnerable to the
effects of thimerosal.



The study also raises questions about a new push by the Centers for Disease
Control and Prevention to add flu shots to the immunization schedule for
school-age kids. The vast majority of flu shots given still contain the
preservative.



In the study, researchers administered thimerosal to four strains of young
mice. Three of the mice strains were unaffected by thimerosal, but the
fourth developed problems consistent with autism such as delayed growth,
social withdrawal and brain abnormalities. The mice were known to have a
genetic susceptibility to mercury.



Thimerosal, found in childhood vaccines, can increase the risk of
autism-like damage in mice



A new study indicates that postnatal exposure to thimerosal, a mercury
preservative commonly used in a number of childhood vaccines, can lead to
the development of autism-like damage in autoimmune disease susceptible
mice. This animal model, the first to show that the administration of
low-dose ethylmercury can lead to behavioral and neurological changes in the
developing brain, reinforces previous studies showing that a genetic
predisposition affects risk in combination with certain environmental
triggers. The study was conducted by researchers at the Jerome L. and Dawn
Greene

Infectious Disease Laboratory at the Mailman School of Public Health,
Columbia University. Over the past 20 years, there has been a striking
increase--at least ten-fold since 1985--in the number of children diagnosed
with autism spectrum disorders. Genetic factors alone cannot account for
this rise in prevalence. Researchers at the Mailman School, led by Dr. Mady
Hornig, created an animal model to explore the relationship between
thimerosal (ethylmercury) and autism, hypothesizing that the combination of
genetic susceptibility and environmental exposure to mercury in childhood
vaccines may cause neurotoxicity.

Cumulative mercury burden through other sources, including in utero
exposures to mercury in fish or vaccines, may also lead to damage in
susceptible hosts. Timing and quantity of thimerosal dosing for the mouse
model were developed using the U.S. immunization schedule for children, with
doses calculated for mice based on 10th percentile weight of U.S. boys at
age two, four, six, and twelve months.

The researchers found the subset of autoimmune disease susceptible mice with
thimerosal exposure to express many important aspects of the behavioral and
neuropathologic features of autism spectrum disorders, including:

Abnormal response to novel environments;

Behavioral impoverishment (limited range of behaviors and decreased
exploration of environment); Significant abnormalities in brain
architecture, affecting areas subserving emotion and cognition; Increased
brain size.

These findings have relevance for identification of autism cases relating to
environmental factors; design of treatment strategies; and development of
rational immunization programs. The use of thimerosal in vaccines has been
reduced over the past few years, although it is still present in some
influenza vaccines. Identifying the connection between genetic
susceptibility and an environmental trigger for autism--in this case
thimerosal exposure--is important because it may promote discovery of
effective interventions for and limit exposure in a specific population,
stated the lead author Dr. Mady Hornig. Because the developing brain can be
exposed to toxins that are long gone by the time symptoms appear, clues
gathered in these animal models can then be evaluated through prospective
human birth cohorts--providing a powerful to tool to dissect the interaction
between genes and the environment over time.

Citation source: Molecular Psychiatry 2004 Volume 9, advance on line
publication doi:10.1038/sj.mp.4001529

For further information on this work, please contact Mady Hornig, MD,
Columbia University, Mailman School of Public Health, Greene Infectious
Disease Laboratory, 722 W 168th St, New York, New York 10032, United States
of America, phone: 212-342-9036; FAX: 949-824-1229; e-mail:
mh2092@columbia.edu

ARTICLE: "Neurotoxic effects of postnatal thimerosal are mouse
strain-dependent"

M Hornig, D Chian, W. I. Lipkin

Greene Infectious Disease Laboratory, Mailman School of Public Health,
Columbia University, 722 W 168th St, New York, New York 10032

"JohnDoe"  wrote in message 
news:434b918c$0$5212$ba620dc5@text.nova.planet.nl...

> lynndb wrote:
>> Do you not think that sometimes we are only given the information that
>> certain people want us to hear ?? It is curious that the government
>> have a huge fund for vaccine damage considering many think it doesnt
>> happen !
>
> 1) nobody denies that vaccines can cause adverse reactions in some, just 
> not autism.
>
> 2) vaccine producers threatened to stop producing vaccines faced with the 
> threat of expensive lawsuits (lawsuits tend to be extremely expensive even 
> if you don't lose them). No vaccines would mean disaster so the government 
> took measures to secure the availability of vaccines and save lives. If 
> anything, that fund is to be able to financially handle lawsuits, not to 
> compensate people for damage caused by vaccines and certainly not because 
> there is a link between vaccines and autism, since there is no link.
>
> 3) you obviously have gotten information from the anti-vac crowd, so your 
> claim that we are only give the information that certain people want to us 
> to hear is hereby proven totally baseless.


This LIE is repeated.


   http://www.flu.org.cn/news/2004986362.htm
      Thimerosal,New study reopens debate on vaccinations
      Published: Sep ,8,2004 16:21 PM
      By ###
      Special to The Wall Street Journal & Medicalnewstoday



By Tara Parker-Pope
The Wall Street Journal

Just a few months after the nation's top medical adviser rejected a link
between vaccines and autism, a mouse study has reignited the debate and
raised new fears among parents considering vaccinations and flu shots for
their kids.


For years, a cadre of parents and physicians have contended that thimerosal,
an ethyl-mercury compound that has been one of the most widely used vaccine
preservatives, is partly responsible for an apparent rise in autism in
recent decades. But broad population studies haven't supported the claim. In
May, a major report from the Institute of Medicine's Immunization Safety
Review Committee rejected a link between autism and vaccines.



But today, a congressional committee will review a June study from Columbia
University, which found that a preservative used in vaccines can cause
autism-like symptoms in a specific strain of mice. The research raises
questions about whether some people might be genetically vulnerable to the
effects of thimerosal.



The study also raises questions about a new push by the Centers for Disease
Control and Prevention to add flu shots to the immunization schedule for
school-age kids. The vast majority of flu shots given still contain the
preservative.



In the study, researchers administered thimerosal to four strains of young
mice. Three of the mice strains were unaffected by thimerosal, but the
fourth developed problems consistent with autism such as delayed growth,
social withdrawal and brain abnormalities. The mice were known to have a
genetic susceptibility to mercury.



Thimerosal, found in childhood vaccines, can increase the risk of
autism-like damage in mice



A new study indicates that postnatal exposure to thimerosal, a mercury
preservative commonly used in a number of childhood vaccines, can lead to
the development of autism-like damage in autoimmune disease susceptible
mice. This animal model, the first to show that the administration of
low-dose ethylmercury can lead to behavioral and neurological changes in the
developing brain, reinforces previous studies showing that a genetic
predisposition affects risk in combination with certain environmental
triggers. The study was conducted by researchers at the Jerome L. and Dawn
Greene

Infectious Disease Laboratory at the Mailman School of Public Health,
Columbia University. Over the past 20 years, there has been a striking
increase--at least ten-fold since 1985--in the number of children diagnosed
with autism spectrum disorders. Genetic factors alone cannot account for
this rise in prevalence. Researchers at the Mailman School, led by Dr. Mady
Hornig, created an animal model to explore the relationship between
thimerosal (ethylmercury) and autism, hypothesizing that the combination of
genetic susceptibility and environmental exposure to mercury in childhood
vaccines may cause neurotoxicity.

Cumulative mercury burden through other sources, including in utero
exposures to mercury in fish or vaccines, may also lead to damage in
susceptible hosts. Timing and quantity of thimerosal dosing for the mouse
model were developed using the U.S. immunization schedule for children, with
doses calculated for mice based on 10th percentile weight of U.S. boys at
age two, four, six, and twelve months.

The researchers found the subset of autoimmune disease susceptible mice with
thimerosal exposure to express many important aspects of the behavioral and
neuropathologic features of autism spectrum disorders, including:

Abnormal response to novel environments;

Behavioral impoverishment (limited range of behaviors and decreased
exploration of environment); Significant abnormalities in brain
architecture, affecting areas subserving emotion and cognition; Increased
brain size.

These findings have relevance for identification of autism cases relating to
environmental factors; design of treatment strategies; and development of
rational immunization programs. The use of thimerosal in vaccines has been
reduced over the past few years, although it is still present in some
influenza vaccines. Identifying the connection between genetic
susceptibility and an environmental trigger for autism--in this case
thimerosal exposure--is important because it may promote discovery of
effective interventions for and limit exposure in a specific population,
stated the lead author Dr. Mady Hornig. Because the developing brain can be
exposed to toxins that are long gone by the time symptoms appear, clues
gathered in these animal models can then be evaluated through prospective
human birth cohorts--providing a powerful to tool to dissect the interaction
between genes and the environment over time.

Citation source: Molecular Psychiatry 2004 Volume 9, advance on line
publication doi:10.1038/sj.mp.4001529

For further information on this work, please contact Mady Hornig, MD,
Columbia University, Mailman School of Public Health, Greene Infectious
Disease Laboratory, 722 W 168th St, New York, New York 10032, United States
of America, phone: 212-342-9036; FAX: 949-824-1229; e-mail:
mh2092@columbia.edu

ARTICLE: "Neurotoxic effects of postnatal thimerosal are mouse
strain-dependent"

M Hornig, D Chian, W. I. Lipkin

Greene Infectious Disease Laboratory, Mailman School of Public Health,
Columbia University, 722 W 168th St, New York, New York 10032

"JohnDoe"  wrote in message 
news:434bac9b$0$12671$ba620dc5@text.nova.planet.nl...

> lynndb wrote:
>
>> I am not anti-vac !!, both my children had the MMR jabs. I also
>> understand that a widespread epidemic could potentially be tragic. Im
>> just shocked at how blinkered some people have become, why try to
>> strike someone off when they devote their entire lives to changing
>> others lives for the better, and its all well and good going along with
>> the research we are given to read, but surely when you actually see
>> children who are damaged by vaccine, each and everyone of us would want
>> to start asking questions and find out why !!
>>
>
> I for one did not claim you were anti-vac. I just noted that despite your 
> claim that it seems you only get to hear one side, you obviously got 
> information from both sides, therefor falsifying that claim. And the 
> immensily flawed study claiming a link between vaccines and autism got 
> way, way more attention then followup studies which showed why the 
> original study was flawed and that found no link at all.
>
> And yes, surely when you actually see children who *seem to be* (!!) 
> damaged by vaccines you start to ask questions. And these questions were 
> asked, matters were researched and it turns out that as far as autism is 
> concerned, there is zero evidence to be found that vaccines cause autism. 
> The evidence we have clearly shows that if we actually want to find a 
> cause for autism, we should stop wasting valuable time and money into 
> looking at vaccines as a cause. Any further waste of sparse resources on 
> research in that direction will distract from finding the real cause of 
> autism and is therefor damaging to all people suffering from autism.


There is a group here who are *organized medicine* members, their ONLY aim 
is to protect *organized medicine*, they also do NOT think people should 
have the right to chose. They want all people who chose not to vaccinate 
their children to burn in hell and some want to watch!


   http://www.flu.org.cn/news/2004986362.htm
      Thimerosal,New study reopens debate on vaccinations
      Published: Sep ,8,2004 16:21 PM
      By ###
      Special to The Wall Street Journal & Medicalnewstoday



By Tara Parker-Pope
The Wall Street Journal

Just a few months after the nation's top medical adviser rejected a link
between vaccines and autism, a mouse study has reignited the debate and
raised new fears among parents considering vaccinations and flu shots for
their kids.


For years, a cadre of parents and physicians have contended that thimerosal,
an ethyl-mercury compound that has been one of the most widely used vaccine
preservatives, is partly responsible for an apparent rise in autism in
recent decades. But broad population studies haven't supported the claim. In
May, a major report from the Institute of Medicine's Immunization Safety
Review Committee rejected a link between autism and vaccines.



But today, a congressional committee will review a June study from Columbia
University, which found that a preservative used in vaccines can cause
autism-like symptoms in a specific strain of mice. The research raises
questions about whether some people might be genetically vulnerable to the
effects of thimerosal.



The study also raises questions about a new push by the Centers for Disease
Control and Prevention to add flu shots to the immunization schedule for
school-age kids. The vast majority of flu shots given still contain the
preservative.



In the study, researchers administered thimerosal to four strains of young
mice. Three of the mice strains were unaffected by thimerosal, but the
fourth developed problems consistent with autism such as delayed growth,
social withdrawal and brain abnormalities. The mice were known to have a
genetic susceptibility to mercury.



Thimerosal, found in childhood vaccines, can increase the risk of
autism-like damage in mice



A new study indicates that postnatal exposure to thimerosal, a mercury
preservative commonly used in a number of childhood vaccines, can lead to
the development of autism-like damage in autoimmune disease susceptible
mice. This animal model, the first to show that the administration of
low-dose ethylmercury can lead to behavioral and neurological changes in the
developing brain, reinforces previous studies showing that a genetic
predisposition affects risk in combination with certain environmental
triggers. The study was conducted by researchers at the Jerome L. and Dawn
Greene

Infectious Disease Laboratory at the Mailman School of Public Health,
Columbia University. Over the past 20 years, there has been a striking
increase--at least ten-fold since 1985--in the number of children diagnosed
with autism spectrum disorders. Genetic factors alone cannot account for
this rise in prevalence. Researchers at the Mailman School, led by Dr. Mady
Hornig, created an animal model to explore the relationship between
thimerosal (ethylmercury) and autism, hypothesizing that the combination of
genetic susceptibility and environmental exposure to mercury in childhood
vaccines may cause neurotoxicity.

Cumulative mercury burden through other sources, including in utero
exposures to mercury in fish or vaccines, may also lead to damage in
susceptible hosts. Timing and quantity of thimerosal dosing for the mouse
model were developed using the U.S. immunization schedule for children, with
doses calculated for mice based on 10th percentile weight of U.S. boys at
age two, four, six, and twelve months.

The researchers found the subset of autoimmune disease susceptible mice with
thimerosal exposure to express many important aspects of the behavioral and
neuropathologic features of autism spectrum disorders, including:

Abnormal response to novel environments;

Behavioral impoverishment (limited range of behaviors and decreased
exploration of environment); Significant abnormalities in brain
architecture, affecting areas subserving emotion and cognition; Increased
brain size.

These findings have relevance for identification of autism cases relating to
environmental factors; design of treatment strategies; and development of
rational immunization programs. The use of thimerosal in vaccines has been
reduced over the past few years, although it is still present in some
influenza vaccines. Identifying the connection between genetic
susceptibility and an environmental trigger for autism--in this case
thimerosal exposure--is important because it may promote discovery of
effective interventions for and limit exposure in a specific population,
stated the lead author Dr. Mady Hornig. Because the developing brain can be
exposed to toxins that are long gone by the time symptoms appear, clues
gathered in these animal models can then be evaluated through prospective
human birth cohorts--providing a powerful to tool to dissect the interaction
between genes and the environment over time.

Citation source: Molecular Psychiatry 2004 Volume 9, advance on line
publication doi:10.1038/sj.mp.4001529

For further information on this work, please contact Mady Hornig, MD,
Columbia University, Mailman School of Public Health, Greene Infectious
Disease Laboratory, 722 W 168th St, New York, New York 10032, United States
of America, phone: 212-342-9036; FAX: 949-824-1229; e-mail:
mh2092@columbia.edu

ARTICLE: "Neurotoxic effects of postnatal thimerosal are mouse
strain-dependent"

M Hornig, D Chian, W. I. Lipkin

Greene Infectious Disease Laboratory, Mailman School of Public Health,
Columbia University, 722 W 168th St, New York, New York 10032

"cathyb"  wrote in message 
news:1129026621.348906.299650@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

>
> lynndb wrote:
>> Do you not think that sometimes we are only given the information that
>> certain people want us to hear ?? It is curious that the government
>> have a huge fund for vaccine damage considering many think it doesnt
>> happen !
>
> No-one thinks vaccine damage doesn't happen. The chances of it
> happening are vanishingly small, however, compared to the damage that
> would occur to many should we lose the herd immunity we have acquired
> to many diseases thanks to vaccination.
>
> However, this particular vaccine damage has been shown not to happen in
> many, huge studies.
>
> No-one stopped the original study from being published, and it was
> publicised massively. Which is more than can be said for the facts that
> emerged: that the study was carried out on fewer than ten children,
> that Wakefield was working at that time with lawyers of parents who
> were suing vaccine manufacturers, and that the conclusions of the study
> were repudiated by the other authors and the journal that published it.
>
> And even the fact that none of the massive epidemiological studies that
> have been carried out to find a link between the vaccine and autism
> have found none has received as much publicity as that original
> massively flawed study.
>
> So, in this case, no I don't think that 'sometimes we are only given
> the information that certain people want us to hear'.
>
> Cathy


That's a bunch of BS!

http://www.altcorp.com/DentalInformation/fdahypocracy.htm

http://www.altcorp.com/DentalInformation/autismhg.htm

http://www.altcorp.com/DentalInformation/asdexperts.htm

> 

"Mark Probert"  wrote in message 
news:NcP2f.2582$Hm3.1820@fe09.lga...

> lynndb wrote:
>> Do you not think that sometimes we are only given the information that
>> certain people want us to hear ?? It is curious that the government
>> have a huge fund for vaccine damage considering many think it doesnt
>> happen !
>
>
> No sequitur. However, several large epidemiological studies on various 
> populations have shown that there is no link. The findings have been 
> replicated and duplicated, which is one of the hallmarks of scientific 
> accuracy.



   http://www.flu.org.cn/news/2004986362.htm
      Thimerosal,New study reopens debate on vaccinations
      Published: Sep ,8,2004 16:21 PM
      By ###
      Special to The Wall Street Journal & Medicalnewstoday



By Tara Parker-Pope
The Wall Street Journal

Just a few months after the nation's top medical adviser rejected a link
between vaccines and autism, a mouse study has reignited the debate and
raised new fears among parents considering vaccinations and flu shots for
their kids.


For years, a cadre of parents and physicians have contended that thimerosal,
an ethyl-mercury compound that has been one of the most widely used vaccine
preservatives, is partly responsible for an apparent rise in autism in
recent decades. But broad population studies haven't supported the claim. In
May, a major report from the Institute of Medicine's Immunization Safety
Review Committee rejected a link between autism and vaccines.



But today, a congressional committee will review a June study from Columbia
University, which found that a preservative used in vaccines can cause
autism-like symptoms in a specific strain of mice. The research raises
questions about whether some people might be genetically vulnerable to the
effects of thimerosal.



The study also raises questions about a new push by the Centers for Disease
Control and Prevention to add flu shots to the immunization schedule for
school-age kids. The vast majority of flu shots given still contain the
preservative.



In the study, researchers administered thimerosal to four strains of young
mice. Three of the mice strains were unaffected by thimerosal, but the
fourth developed problems consistent with autism such as delayed growth,
social withdrawal and brain abnormalities. The mice were known to have a
genetic susceptibility to mercury.



Thimerosal, found in childhood vaccines, can increase the risk of
autism-like damage in mice



A new study indicates that postnatal exposure to thimerosal, a mercury
preservative commonly used in a number of childhood vaccines, can lead to
the development of autism-like damage in autoimmune disease susceptible
mice. This animal model, the first to show that the administration of
low-dose ethylmercury can lead to behavioral and neurological changes in the
developing brain, reinforces previous studies showing that a genetic
predisposition affects risk in combination with certain environmental
triggers. The study was conducted by researchers at the Jerome L. and Dawn
Greene

Infectious Disease Laboratory at the Mailman School of Public Health,
Columbia University. Over the past 20 years, there has been a striking
increase--at least ten-fold since 1985--in the number of children diagnosed
with autism spectrum disorders. Genetic factors alone cannot account for
this rise in prevalence. Researchers at the Mailman School, led by Dr. Mady
Hornig, created an animal model to explore the relationship between
thimerosal (ethylmercury) and autism, hypothesizing that the combination of
genetic susceptibility and environmental exposure to mercury in childhood
vaccines may cause neurotoxicity.

Cumulative mercury burden through other sources, including in utero
exposures to mercury in fish or vaccines, may also lead to damage in
susceptible hosts. Timing and quantity of thimerosal dosing for the mouse
model were developed using the U.S. immunization schedule for children, with
doses calculated for mice based on 10th percentile weight of U.S. boys at
age two, four, six, and twelve months.

The researchers found the subset of autoimmune disease susceptible mice with
thimerosal exposure to express many important aspects of the behavioral and
neuropathologic features of autism spectrum disorders, including:

Abnormal response to novel environments;

Behavioral impoverishment (limited range of behaviors and decreased
exploration of environment); Significant abnormalities in brain
architecture, affecting areas subserving emotion and cognition; Increased
brain size.

These findings have relevance for identification of autism cases relating to
environmental factors; design of treatment strategies; and development of
rational immunization programs. The use of thimerosal in vaccines has been
reduced over the past few years, although it is still present in some
influenza vaccines. Identifying the connection between genetic
susceptibility and an environmental trigger for autism--in this case
thimerosal exposure--is important because it may promote discovery of
effective interventions for and limit exposure in a specific population,
stated the lead author Dr. Mady Hornig. Because the developing brain can be
exposed to toxins that are long gone by the time symptoms appear, clues
gathered in these animal models can then be evaluated through prospective
human birth cohorts--providing a powerful to tool to dissect the interaction
between genes and the environment over time.

Citation source: Molecular Psychiatry 2004 Volume 9, advance on line
publication doi:10.1038/sj.mp.4001529

For further information on this work, please contact Mady Hornig, MD,
Columbia University, Mailman School of Public Health, Greene Infectious
Disease Laboratory, 722 W 168th St, New York, New York 10032, United States
of America, phone: 212-342-9036; FAX: 949-824-1229; e-mail:
mh2092@columbia.edu

ARTICLE: "Neurotoxic effects of postnatal thimerosal are mouse
strain-dependent"

M Hornig, D Chian, W. I. Lipkin

Greene Infectious Disease Laboratory, Mailman School of Public Health,
Columbia University, 722 W 168th St, New York, New York 10032

"Mark Probert"  wrote in message 
news:wfP2f.2584$Hm3.826@fe09.lga...

> LadyLollipop wrote:
>> "Mark Probert"  wrote in message 
>> news:TVz2f.10063$dl2.4396@fe08.lga...
>>
>>>LadyLollipop wrote:
>>>
>>>>"HCN"  wrote
>>>>
>>>><snip diversion>
>>>
>>><snip diversion + insult>

>
>
>>>
>>>>>"john"  wrote in message 
>>>>>news:1128843744.707247.10080@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>I'm being driven out says second expert to link autism and jabs
>>>>>>By Daniel Foggo
>>>>>>(Filed: 02/10/2005)
>>>>>>http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/10/02/naut02.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/10/02/ixhome.html
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>> 

LadyLollipop wrote:

> "cathyb"  wrote in message
> news:1129026621.348906.299650@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > lynndb wrote:
> >> Do you not think that sometimes we are only given the information that
> >> certain people want us to hear ?? It is curious that the government
> >> have a huge fund for vaccine damage considering many think it doesnt
> >> happen !
> >
> > No-one thinks vaccine damage doesn't happen. The chances of it
> > happening are vanishingly small, however, compared to the damage that
> > would occur to many should we lose the herd immunity we have acquired
> > to many diseases thanks to vaccination.
> >
> > However, this particular vaccine damage has been shown not to happen in
> > many, huge studies.
> >
> > No-one stopped the original study from being published, and it was
> > publicised massively. Which is more than can be said for the facts that
> > emerged: that the study was carried out on fewer than ten children,
> > that Wakefield was working at that time with lawyers of parents who
> > were suing vaccine manufacturers, and that the conclusions of the study
> > were repudiated by the other authors and the journal that published it.
> >
> > And even the fact that none of the massive epidemiological studies that
> > have been carried out to find a link between the vaccine and autism
> > have found none has received as much publicity as that original
> > massively flawed study.
> >
> > So, in this case, no I don't think that 'sometimes we are only given
> > the information that certain people want us to hear'.
> >
> > Cathy
>
> That's a bunch of BS!


Excellent argument. La Lollipop demonstrates her incisive grasp of the
issues once more. Of course she can't refute any point made, so she
comes up with..."BS!". Brilliant.

Cathy

<snip Lollicrap>

"HCN"  wrote in message 
news:VaKdnQ6X0b3OW9beRVn-gQ@comcast.com...

>
> "lynndb"  wrote in message 
> news:1129017905.882231.290970@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>>I think if you took the time to speak with many parents of children
>> with learning disabilities, who have spent years fighting the 'system'
>> we have in place to educate a 'normal' child, you may find that Lisa
>> has changed things beyond expectation for their children, giving them
>> hope and the help they need for a happier future.
>>
>> Many of her cases have involved children who were happy healthy
>> children the day before they were vaccinated, then turned into children
>> who could no longer speak or function as they had previously ... could
>> this be purely coincidence !!!. Im sure that the vaccine does not
>> affect each and everyone of us that decides to have it, but children
>> that are suseptable to a reaction can be affected, why should we put
>> our childrens lives at risk in this way ?, all that is being asked is
>> that fair research is done, and that it is accepted that it can be
>> damaging. It should be every parents right to know the truth and have
>> the choice to make a balanced decision as to what we subject our
>> children to.
>>
>
> One major caveat:  Ms. Blackmore-Brown is a psychologist.  This means she 
> is not a medical doctor and if she is "diagnosing" some kind of "vaccine 
> damage" due to thimerosal she is going beyond her training.  If she is in 
> fact trying to play "doctor" then she should be disciplined (and a quick 
> Google search finds that this is not the first time that she has been 
> checked out).
>
> I have heard of speech therapists who have actually tried to "diagnose" 
> medical problems or have tried to refer children to chiropractors, cranial 
> sacral therapists or even to recommend supplements.  This is also OUTside 
> their boundaries, and can bring their licensing board upon them 
> (especially if they have a relationship with any of the outside 
> providers).
>
> Do you have any papers written by this person?  Do you have any journal 
> references on this "research" you speak of (forget Wakefield or anything 
> written in "Medical Hypothesis"... the former because his "research was 
> bought and paid for by lawyers, and the latter requires you to look up the 
> definition of the word "hypothesis").


That *excuse* won't work.

One even a parent can quickly see that AFTER a child gets their vaccination, 
and can NOT speak correctly, they KNOW what caused it!!! This is NOT a 
coincidence!!!!!!!!

Save you speech for an idiot.

Many of her cases have involved children who were happy healthy

>> children the day before they were vaccinated, then turned into children
>> who could no longer speak or function as they had previously ... could
>> this be purely coincidence !!!. Im sure that the vaccine does not
>> affect each and everyone of us that decides to have it, but children
>> that are suseptable to a reaction can be affected, why should we put
>> our childrens lives at risk in this way ?, all that is being asked is
>> that fair research is done, and that it is accepted that it can be
>> damaging. It should be every parents right to know the truth and have
>> the choice to make a balanced decision as to what we subject our
>> children to.

"Mark Probert"  wrote in message 
news:bTP2f.2605$Hm3.1735@fe09.lga...

> HCN wrote:


What an *idiot* can see through easily, poor Mark.

<snip>


>> "lynndb"  wrote in message 
>> news:1129017905.882231.290970@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>>I think if you took the time to speak with many parents of children
>>>with learning disabilities, who have spent years fighting the 'system'
>>>we have in place to educate a 'normal' child, you may find that Lisa
>>>has changed things beyond expectation for their children, giving them
>>>hope and the help they need for a happier future.
>>>
>>>Many of her cases have involved children who were happy healthy
>>>children the day before they were vaccinated, then turned into children
>>>who could no longer speak or function as they had previously ... could
>>>this be purely coincidence !!!. Im sure that the vaccine does not
>>>affect each and everyone of us that decides to have it, but children
>>>that are suseptable to a reaction can be affected, why should we put
>>>our childrens lives at risk in this way ?, all that is being asked is
>>>that fair research is done, and that it is accepted that it can be
>>>damaging. It should be every parents right to know the truth and have
>>>the choice to make a balanced decision as to what we subject our
>>>children to.
>>>
>>

>> 

"HCN"  wrote

Poor HCN, found one idiot who fell for his excuse.

Snip>

>
> "Mark Probert 

On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 21:04:06 GMT, "LadyLollipop"
 wrote:


> They want all people who chose not to vaccinate 
>their children to burn in hell and some want to watch!

>>From: JDrew63929 (jdrew63929@aol.com)
>>Date: 2001-05-28 12:14:24 PST 
>
>
> 
>>Mark.................
>>
>>Drop dead.
>

-------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------

Best defense to logic is ignorance

LadyLollipop wrote:

> "Mark Probert"  wrote in message 
> news:NcP2f.2582$Hm3.1820@fe09.lga...
> 
>>lynndb wrote:
>>
>>>Do you not think that sometimes we are only given the information that
>>>certain people want us to hear ?? It is curious that the government
>>>have a huge fund for vaccine damage considering many think it doesnt
>>>happen !
>>
>>
>>No sequitur. However, several large epidemiological studies on various 
>>populations have shown that there is no link. The findings have been 
>>replicated and duplicated, which is one of the hallmarks of scientific 
>>accuracy.


That's nice. Where is the follow-up showing that humans are affected in 
the same way?

There is none.




>    http://www.flu.org.cn/news/2004986362.htm
>       Thimerosal,New study reopens debate on vaccinations
>       Published: Sep ,8,2004 16:21 PM
>       By ###
>       Special to The Wall Street Journal & Medicalnewstoday
> 
> 
> 
> By Tara Parker-Pope
> The Wall Street Journal
> 
> Just a few months after the nation's top medical adviser rejected a link
> between vaccines and autism, a mouse study has reignited the debate and
> raised new fears among parents considering vaccinations and flu shots for
> their kids.
> 
> 
> For years, a cadre of parents and physicians have contended that thimerosal,
> an ethyl-mercury compound that has been one of the most widely used vaccine
> preservatives, is partly responsible for an apparent rise in autism in
> recent decades. But broad population studies haven't supported the claim. In
> May, a major report from the Institute of Medicine's Immunization Safety
> Review Committee rejected a link between autism and vaccines.
> 
> 
> 
> But today, a congressional committee will review a June study from Columbia
> University, which found that a preservative used in vaccines can cause
> autism-like symptoms in a specific strain of mice. The research raises
> questions about whether some people might be genetically vulnerable to the
> effects of thimerosal.
> 
> 
> 
> The study also raises questions about a new push by the Centers for Disease
> Control and Prevention to add flu shots to the immunization schedule for
> school-age kids. The vast majority of flu shots given still contain the
> preservative.
> 
> 
> 
> In the study, researchers administered thimerosal to four strains of young
> mice. Three of the mice strains were unaffected by thimerosal, but the
> fourth developed problems consistent with autism such as delayed growth,
> social withdrawal and brain abnormalities. The mice were known to have a
> genetic susceptibility to mercury.
> 
> 
> 
> Thimerosal, found in childhood vaccines, can increase the risk of
> autism-like damage in mice
> 
> 
> 
> A new study indicates that postnatal exposure to thimerosal, a mercury
> preservative commonly used in a number of childhood vaccines, can lead to
> the development of autism-like damage in autoimmune disease susceptible
> mice. This animal model, the first to show that the administration of
> low-dose ethylmercury can lead to behavioral and neurological changes in the
> developing brain, reinforces previous studies showing that a genetic
> predisposition affects risk in combination with certain environmental
> triggers. The study was conducted by researchers at the Jerome L. and Dawn
> Greene
> 
> Infectious Disease Laboratory at the Mailman School of Public Health,
> Columbia University. Over the past 20 years, there has been a striking
> increase--at least ten-fold since 1985--in the number of children diagnosed
> with autism spectrum disorders. Genetic factors alone cannot account for
> this rise in prevalence. Researchers at the Mailman School, led by Dr. Mady
> Hornig, created an animal model to explore the relationship between
> thimerosal (ethylmercury) and autism, hypothesizing that the combination of
> genetic susceptibility and environmental exposure to mercury in childhood
> vaccines may cause neurotoxicity.
> 
> Cumulative mercury burden through other sources, including in utero
> exposures to mercury in fish or vaccines, may also lead to damage in
> susceptible hosts. Timing and quantity of thimerosal dosing for the mouse
> model were developed using the U.S. immunization schedule for children, with
> doses calculated for mice based on 10th percentile weight of U.S. boys at
> age two, four, six, and twelve months.
> 
> The researchers found the subset of autoimmune disease susceptible mice with
> thimerosal exposure to express many important aspects of the behavioral and
> neuropathologic features of autism spectrum disorders, including:
> 
> Abnormal response to novel environments;
> 
> Behavioral impoverishment (limited range of behaviors and decreased
> exploration of environment); Significant abnormalities in brain
> architecture, affecting areas subserving emotion and cognition; Increased
> brain size.
> 
> These findings have relevance for identification of autism cases relating to
> environmental factors; design of treatment strategies; and development of
> rational immunization programs. The use of thimerosal in vaccines has been
> reduced over the past few years, although it is still present in some
> influenza vaccines. Identifying the connection between genetic
> susceptibility and an environmental trigger for autism--in this case
> thimerosal exposure--is important because it may promote discovery of
> effective interventions for and limit exposure in a specific population,
> stated the lead author Dr. Mady Hornig. Because the developing brain can be
> exposed to toxins that are long gone by the time symptoms appear, clues
> gathered in these animal models can then be evaluated through prospective
> human birth cohorts--providing a powerful to tool to dissect the interaction
> between genes and the environment over time.
> 
> Citation source: Molecular Psychiatry 2004 Volume 9, advance on line
> publication doi:10.1038/sj.mp.4001529
> 
> For further information on this work, please contact Mady Hornig, MD,
> Columbia University, Mailman School of Public Health, Greene Infectious
> Disease Laboratory, 722 W 168th St, New York, New York 10032, United States
> of America, phone: 212-342-9036; FAX: 949-824-1229; e-mail:
> mh2092@columbia.edu
> 
> ARTICLE: "Neurotoxic effects of postnatal thimerosal are mouse
> strain-dependent"
> 
> M Hornig, D Chian, W. I. Lipkin
> 
> Greene Infectious Disease Laboratory, Mailman School of Public Health,
> Columbia University, 722 W 168th St, New York, New York 10032 
> 
> 

LadyLollipop wrote:

> "cathyb"  wrote in message 
> news:1129026621.348906.299650@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> 
>>lynndb wrote:
>>
>>>Do you not think that sometimes we are only given the information that
>>>certain people want us to hear ?? It is curious that the government
>>>have a huge fund for vaccine damage considering many think it doesnt
>>>happen !
>>
>>No-one thinks vaccine damage doesn't happen. The chances of it
>>happening are vanishingly small, however, compared to the damage that
>>would occur to many should we lose the herd immunity we have acquired
>>to many diseases thanks to vaccination.
>>
>>However, this particular vaccine damage has been shown not to happen in
>>many, huge studies.
>>
>>No-one stopped the original study from being published, and it was
>>publicised massively. Which is more than can be said for the facts that
>>emerged: that the study was carried out on fewer than ten children,
>>that Wakefield was working at that time with lawyers of parents who
>>were suing vaccine manufacturers, and that the conclusions of the study
>>were repudiated by the other authors and the journal that published it.
>>
>>And even the fact that none of the massive epidemiological studies that
>>have been carried out to find a link between the vaccine and autism
>>have found none has received as much publicity as that original
>>massively flawed study.
>>
>>So, in this case, no I don't think that 'sometimes we are only given
>>the information that certain people want us to hear'.
>>
>>Cathy
> 
> 
> That's a bunch of BS!
> 
> http://www.altcorp.com/DentalInformation/fdahypocracy.htm
> 
> http://www.altcorp.com/DentalInformation/autismhg.htm
> 
> http://www.altcorp.com/DentalInformation/asdexperts.htm


There was no BS until you posted Haley's profit driven sites.

On Tue, 11 Oct 2005 21:30:20 GMT, "LadyLollipop"
 wrote:


>
>Poor HCN, found one idiot who fell for his excuse.

>On Wed, 22 Jun 2005 04:57:03 GMT, "LadyLollipop"
> wrote:
>
>>You belittle others because you can't accept the consequences for your own 
>>mistakes.
>
>On Tue, 21 Jun 2005 21:50:11 GMT, "LadyLollipop"
> wrote:
>
>>This forum is to voice your opinion, not to belittle others.
>
>On Sun, 19 Jun 2005 05:07:37 GMT, "LadyLollipop"
> wrote:
>
>>only those filled with hate have a 
>>need to belittle and call names.
>


-------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------

Best defense to logic is ignorance

LadyLollipop wrote:

> "Mark Probert"  wrote in message 
> news:wfP2f.2584$Hm3.826@fe09.lga...
> 
>>LadyLollipop wrote:
>>
>>>"Mark Probert"  wrote in message 
>>>news:TVz2f.10063$dl2.4396@fe08.lga...
>>>
>>>
>>>>LadyLollipop wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>"HCN"  wrote
>>>>>
>>>>><snip diversion>
>>>>
>>>><snip diversion + insult>


Jan CANNOT handle the truth!

It is not a diversion to ppoint out that this physician is following in 
Wakefield's slime which caused a massive epidemic in Great Britain. Only 
a child hater would think otherwise.





> 
> 
>>
>>>>>>"john"  wrote in message 
>>>>>>news:1128843744.707247.10080@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>I'm being driven out says second expert to link autism and jabs
>>>>>>>By Daniel Foggo
>>>>>>>(Filed: 02/10/2005)
>>>>>>>http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/10/02/naut02.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/10/02/ixhome.html
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
> 
> 

LadyLollipop wrote:

> "JohnDoe"  wrote in message 
> news:434bac9b$0$12671$ba620dc5@text.nova.planet.nl...
> 
>>lynndb wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I am not anti-vac !!, both my children had the MMR jabs. I also
>>>understand that a widespread epidemic could potentially be tragic. Im
>>>just shocked at how blinkered some people have become, why try to
>>>strike someone off when they devote their entire lives to changing
>>>others lives for the better, and its all well and good going along with
>>>the research we are given to read, but surely when you actually see
>>>children who are damaged by vaccine, each and everyone of us would want
>>>to start asking questions and find out why !!
>>>
>>
>>I for one did not claim you were anti-vac. I just noted that despite your 
>>claim that it seems you only get to hear one side, you obviously got 
>>information from both sides, therefor falsifying that claim. And the 
>>immensily flawed study claiming a link between vaccines and autism got 
>>way, way more attention then followup studies which showed why the 
>>original study was flawed and that found no link at all.
>>
>>And yes, surely when you actually see children who *seem to be* (!!) 
>>damaged by vaccines you start to ask questions. And these questions were 
>>asked, matters were researched and it turns out that as far as autism is 
>>concerned, there is zero evidence to be found that vaccines cause autism. 
>>The evidence we have clearly shows that if we actually want to find a 
>>cause for autism, we should stop wasting valuable time and money into 
>>looking at vaccines as a cause. Any further waste of sparse resources on 
>>research in that direction will distract from finding the real cause of 
>>autism and is therefor damaging to all people suffering from autism.
> 
> 
> There is a group here who are *organized medicine* members,


Please define *organized medicine*.


> their ONLY aim 
> is to protect *organized medicine*, 


Nope, dope. Our aim is to protect the truth, something that scares you.

they also do NOT think people should

> have the right to chose. 


WRONG, thimerosal breath. People have the right to choose to leave their 
children unprotected against childhood diseases. I also have the right 
to call that criminal child neglect.

They want all people who chose not to vaccinate

> their children to burn in hell and some want to watch!


Actually, we want to prevent them from making a tragic mistake. That is 
why we use facts and verifiable information.

You use scaremongering.




> 
>    http://www.flu.org.cn/news/2004986362.htm
>       Thimerosal,New study reopens debate on vaccinations
>       Published: Sep ,8,2004 16:21 PM
>       By ###
>       Special to The Wall Street Journal & Medicalnewstoday
> 
> 
> 
> By Tara Parker-Pope
> The Wall Street Journal
> 
> Just a few months after the nation's top medical adviser rejected a link
> between vaccines and autism, a mouse study has reignited the debate and
> raised new fears among parents considering vaccinations and flu shots for
> their kids.
> 
> 
> For years, a cadre of parents and physicians have contended that thimerosal,
> an ethyl-mercury compound that has been one of the most widely used vaccine
> preservatives, is partly responsible for an apparent rise in autism in
> recent decades. But broad population studies haven't supported the claim. In
> May, a major report from the Institute of Medicine's Immunization Safety
> Review Committee rejected a link between autism and vaccines.
> 
> 
> 
> But today, a congressional committee will review a June study from Columbia
> University, which found that a preservative used in vaccines can cause
> autism-like symptoms in a specific strain of mice. The research raises
> questions about whether some people might be genetically vulnerable to the
> effects of thimerosal.
> 
> 
> 
> The study also raises questions about a new push by the Centers for Disease
> Control and Prevention to add flu shots to the immunization schedule for
> school-age kids. The vast majority of flu shots given still contain the
> preservative.
> 
> 
> 
> In the study, researchers administered thimerosal to four strains of young
> mice. Three of the mice strains were unaffected by thimerosal, but the
> fourth developed problems consistent with autism such as delayed growth,
> social withdrawal and brain abnormalities. The mice were known to have a
> genetic susceptibility to mercury.
> 
> 
> 
> Thimerosal, found in childhood vaccines, can increase the risk of
> autism-like damage in mice
> 
> 
> 
> A new study indicates that postnatal exposure to thimerosal, a mercury
> preservative commonly used in a number of childhood vaccines, can lead to
> the development of autism-like damage in autoimmune disease susceptible
> mice. This animal model, the first to show that the administration of
> low-dose ethylmercury can lead to behavioral and neurological changes in the
> developing brain, reinforces previous studies showing that a genetic
> predisposition affects risk in combination with certain environmental
> triggers. The study was conducted by researchers at the Jerome L. and Dawn
> Greene
> 
> Infectious Disease Laboratory at the Mailman School of Public Health,
> Columbia University. Over the past 20 years, there has been a striking
> increase--at least ten-fold since 1985--in the number of children diagnosed
> with autism spectrum disorders. Genetic factors alone cannot account for
> this rise in prevalence. Researchers at the Mailman School, led by Dr. Mady
> Hornig, created an animal model to explore the relationship between
> thimerosal (ethylmercury) and autism, hypothesizing that the combination of
> genetic susceptibility and environmental exposure to mercury in childhood
> vaccines may cause neurotoxicity.
> 
> Cumulative mercury burden through other sources, including in utero
> exposures to mercury in fish or vaccines, may also lead to damage in
> susceptible hosts. Timing and quantity of thimerosal dosing for the mouse
> model were developed using the U.S. immunization schedule for children, with
> doses calculated for mice based on 10th percentile weight of U.S. boys at
> age two, four, six, and twelve months.
> 
> The researchers found the subset of autoimmune disease susceptible mice with
> thimerosal exposure to express many important aspects of the behavioral and
> neuropathologic features of autism spectrum disorders, including:
> 
> Abnormal response to novel environments;
> 
> Behavioral impoverishment (limited range of behaviors and decreased
> exploration of environment); Significant abnormalities in brain
> architecture, affecting areas subserving emotion and cognition; Increased
> brain size.
> 
> These findings have relevance for identification of autism cases relating to
> environmental factors; design of treatment strategies; and development of
> rational immunization programs. The use of thimerosal in vaccines has been
> reduced over the past few years, although it is still present in some
> influenza vaccines. Identifying the connection between genetic
> susceptibility and an environmental trigger for autism--in this case
> thimerosal exposure--is important because it may promote discovery of
> effective interventions for and limit exposure in a specific population,
> stated the lead author Dr. Mady Hornig. Because the developing brain can be
> exposed to toxins that are long gone by the time symptoms appear, clues
> gathered in these animal models can then be evaluated through prospective
> human birth cohorts--providing a powerful to tool to dissect the interaction
> between genes and the environment over time.
> 
> Citation source: Molecular Psychiatry 2004 Volume 9, advance on line
> publication doi:10.1038/sj.mp.4001529
> 
> For further information on this work, please contact Mady Hornig, MD,
> Columbia University, Mailman School of Public Health, Greene Infectious
> Disease Laboratory, 722 W 168th St, New York, New York 10032, United States
> of America, phone: 212-342-9036; FAX: 949-824-1229; e-mail:
> mh2092@columbia.edu
> 
> ARTICLE: "Neurotoxic effects of postnatal thimerosal are mouse
> strain-dependent"
> 
> M Hornig, D Chian, W. I. Lipkin
> 
> Greene Infectious Disease Laboratory, Mailman School of Public Health,
> Columbia University, 722 W 168th St, New York, New York 10032 
> 
> 

LadyLollipop wrote:

> "HCN"  wrote
> 
> Poor HCN, found one idiot who fell for his excuse.
> 
> Snip>
> 
>>"Mark Probert 


So, you do not like the fact that the quack was discredited, eh?

LadyLollipop wrote:

> "Mark Probert"  wrote in message 
> news:bTP2f.2605$Hm3.1735@fe09.lga...
> 
>>HCN wrote:
> 
> 
> What an *idiot* can see through easily, poor Mark.


If that were so, you would have 20/20 vision.

The facts are:

Google Scholar:

Your search - Lisa Blackmore-Brown - did not match any articles.

Your search - Blackmore-Brown - did not match any articles.

PublicMed:

The following term was not found and ignored: Blackmore-Brown.

http://www.highbeam.com/ref/ref_search.asp?M=Y&more=1

No results found for Blackmore-Brown..

Jan does not like facts.


> 
> <snip>
> 
>>>"lynndb"  wrote in message 
>>>news:1129017905.882231.290970@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>>>
>>>
>>>>I think if you took the time to speak with many parents of children
>>>>with learning disabilities, who have spent years fighting the 'system'
>>>>we have in place to educate a 'normal' child, you may find that Lisa
>>>>has changed things beyond expectation for their children, giving them
>>>>hope and the help they need for a happier future.
>>>>
>>>>Many of her cases have involved children who were happy healthy
>>>>children the day before they were vaccinated, then turned into children
>>>>who could no longer speak or function as they had previously ... could
>>>>this be purely coincidence !!!. Im sure that the vaccine does not
>>>>affect each and everyone of us that decides to have it, but children
>>>>that are suseptable to a reaction can be affected, why should we put
>>>>our childrens lives at risk in this way ?, all that is being asked is
>>>>that fair research is done, and that it is accepted that it can be
>>>>damaging. It should be every parents right to know the truth and have
>>>>the choice to make a balanced decision as to what we subject our
>>>>children to.
>>>>
>>>
> 
> 

LadyLollipop wrote:

> "HCN"  wrote in message 
> news:VaKdnQ6X0b3OW9beRVn-gQ@comcast.com...
> 
>>"lynndb"  wrote in message 
>>news:1129017905.882231.290970@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>>I think if you took the time to speak with many parents of children
>>>with learning disabilities, who have spent years fighting the 'system'
>>>we have in place to educate a 'normal' child, you may find that Lisa
>>>has changed things beyond expectation for their children, giving them
>>>hope and the help they need for a happier future.
>>>
>>>Many of her cases have involved children who were happy healthy
>>>children the day before they were vaccinated, then turned into children
>>>who could no longer speak or function as they had previously ... could
>>>this be purely coincidence !!!. Im sure that the vaccine does not
>>>affect each and everyone of us that decides to have it, but children
>>>that are suseptable to a reaction can be affected, why should we put
>>>our childrens lives at risk in this way ?, all that is being asked is
>>>that fair research is done, and that it is accepted that it can be
>>>damaging. It should be every parents right to know the truth and have
>>>the choice to make a balanced decision as to what we subject our
>>>children to.
>>>
>>
>>One major caveat:  Ms. Blackmore-Brown is a psychologist.  This means she 
>>is not a medical doctor and if she is "diagnosing" some kind of "vaccine 
>>damage" due to thimerosal she is going beyond her training.  If she is in 
>>fact trying to play "doctor" then she should be disciplined (and a quick 
>>Google search finds that this is not the first time that she has been 
>>checked out).
>>
>>I have heard of speech therapists who have actually tried to "diagnose" 
>>medical problems or have tried to refer children to chiropractors, cranial 
>>sacral therapists or even to recommend supplements.  This is also OUTside 
>>their boundaries, and can bring their licensing board upon them 
>>(especially if they have a relationship with any of the outside 
>>providers).
>>
>>Do you have any papers written by this person?  Do you have any journal 
>>references on this "research" you speak of (forget Wakefield or anything 
>>written in "Medical Hypothesis"... the former because his "research was 
>>bought and paid for by lawyers, and the latter requires you to look up the 
>>definition of the word "hypothesis").
> 
> 
> That *excuse* won't work.
> 
> One even a parent can quickly see that AFTER a child gets their vaccination, 
> and can NOT speak correctly, they KNOW what caused it!!! This is NOT a 
> coincidence!!!!!!!!
> 
> Save you speech for an idiot.


That is just exactly why I speak to you!


> 
> Many of her cases have involved children who were happy healthy
> 
>>>children the day before they were vaccinated, then turned into children
>>>who could no longer speak or function as they had previously ... could
>>>this be purely coincidence !!!. Im sure that the vaccine does not
>>>affect each and everyone of us that decides to have it, but children
>>>that are suseptable to a reaction can be affected, why should we put
>>>our childrens lives at risk in this way ?, all that is being asked is
>>>that fair research is done, and that it is accepted that it can be
>>>damaging. It should be every parents right to know the truth and have
>>>the choice to make a balanced decision as to what we subject our
>>>children to.
> 
> 
> 

"lynndb"  wrote:


>I think if you took the time to speak with many parents of children
>with learning disabilities, who have spent years fighting the 'system'
>we have in place to educate a 'normal' child, you may find that Lisa
>has changed things beyond expectation for their children, giving them
>hope and the help they need for a happier future.
>
>Many of her cases have involved children who were happy healthy
>children the day before they were vaccinated, then turned into children
>who could no longer speak or function as they had previously


None of her cases "have involved children who were happy healthy
children the day before they were vaccinated, then turned into
children who could no longer speak or function as they had
previously". She is lying.


> ... could
>this be purely coincidence !!!. Im sure that the vaccine does not
>affect each and everyone of us that decides to have it, but children
>that are suseptable to a reaction can be affected, why should we put
>our childrens lives at risk in this way ?, all that is being asked is
>that fair research is done, and that it is accepted that it can be
>damaging. It should be every parents right to know the truth and have
>the choice to make a balanced decision as to what we subject our
>children to.


The research has been done. There is no link between vaccination and
autism. Only liars and the deluded continue to believe that there is.
-- 
Peter Bowditch aa #2243
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au
Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

> LadyLollipop wrote:
>> "JohnDoe"  wrote in message 
>> news:434bac9b$0$12671$ba620dc5@text.nova.planet.nl...
>>
>>>lynndb wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>I am not anti-vac !!, both my children had the MMR jabs. I also
>>>>understand that a widespread epidemic could potentially be tragic. Im
>>>>just shocked at how blinkered some people have become, why try to
>>>>strike someone off when they devote their entire lives to changing
>>>>others lives for the better, and its all well and good going along with
>>>>the research we are given to read, but surely when you actually see
>>>>children who are damaged by vaccine, each and everyone of us would want
>>>>to start asking questions and find out why !!
>>>>
>>>
>>>I for one did not claim you were anti-vac. I just noted that despite your 
>>>claim that it seems you only get to hear one side, you obviously got 
>>>information from both sides, therefor falsifying that claim. And the 
>>>immensily flawed study claiming a link between vaccines and autism got 
>>>way, way more attention then followup studies which showed why the 
>>>original study was flawed and that found no link at all.
>>>
>>>And yes, surely when you actually see children who *seem to be* (!!) 
>>>damaged by vaccines you start to ask questions. And these questions were 
>>>asked, matters were researched and it turns out that as far as autism is 
>>>concerned, there is zero evidence to be found that vaccines cause autism. 
>>>The evidence we have clearly shows that if we actually want to find a 
>>>cause for autism, we should stop wasting valuable time and money into 
>>>looking at vaccines as a cause. Any further waste of sparse resources on 
>>>research in that direction will distract from finding the real cause of 
>>>autism and is therefor damaging to all people suffering from autism.
>>
>>
>> There is a group here who are *organized medicine* members,
>
>
>> their ONLY aim is to protect *organized medicine*,  they also do NOT 
>> think people should have the right to chose.
>
> They want all people who chose not to vaccinate
>> their children to burn in hell and some want to watch!
>>
>>    http://www.flu.org.cn/news/2004986362.htm
>>       Thimerosal,New study reopens debate on vaccinations
>>       Published: Sep ,8,2004 16:21 PM
>>       By ###
>>       Special to The Wall Street Journal & Medicalnewstoday
>>
>>
>>
>> By Tara Parker-Pope
>> The Wall Street Journal
>>
>> Just a few months after the nation's top medical adviser rejected a link
>> between vaccines and autism, a mouse study has reignited the debate and
>> raised new fears among parents considering vaccinations and flu shots for
>> their kids.
>>
>>
>> For years, a cadre of parents and physicians have contended that 
>> thimerosal,
>> an ethyl-mercury compound that has been one of the most widely used 
>> vaccine
>> preservatives, is partly responsible for an apparent rise in autism in
>> recent decades. But broad population studies haven't supported the claim. 
>> In
>> May, a major report from the Institute of Medicine's Immunization Safety
>> Review Committee rejected a link between autism and vaccines.
>>
>>
>>
>> But today, a congressional committee will review a June study from 
>> Columbia
>> University, which found that a preservative used in vaccines can cause
>> autism-like symptoms in a specific strain of mice. The research raises
>> questions about whether some people might be genetically vulnerable to 
>> the
>> effects of thimerosal.
>>
>>
>>
>> The study also raises questions about a new push by the Centers for 
>> Disease
>> Control and Prevention to add flu shots to the immunization schedule for
>> school-age kids. The vast majority of flu shots given still contain the
>> preservative.
>>
>>
>>
>> In the study, researchers administered thimerosal to four strains of 
>> young
>> mice. Three of the mice strains were unaffected by thimerosal, but the
>> fourth developed problems consistent with autism such as delayed growth,
>> social withdrawal and brain abnormalities. The mice were known to have a
>> genetic susceptibility to mercury.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thimerosal, found in childhood vaccines, can increase the risk of
>> autism-like damage in mice
>>
>>
>>
>> A new study indicates that postnatal exposure to thimerosal, a mercury
>> preservative commonly used in a number of childhood vaccines, can lead to
>> the development of autism-like damage in autoimmune disease susceptible
>> mice. This animal model, the first to show that the administration of
>> low-dose ethylmercury can lead to behavioral and neurological changes in 
>> the
>> developing brain, reinforces previous studies showing that a genetic
>> predisposition affects risk in combination with certain environmental
>> triggers. The study was conducted by researchers at the Jerome L. and 
>> Dawn
>> Greene
>>
>> Infectious Disease Laboratory at the Mailman School of Public Health,
>> Columbia University. Over the past 20 years, there has been a striking
>> increase--at least ten-fold since 1985--in the number of children 
>> diagnosed
>> with autism spectrum disorders. Genetic factors alone cannot account for
>> this rise in prevalence. Researchers at the Mailman School, led by Dr. 
>> Mady
>> Hornig, created an animal model to explore the relationship between
>> thimerosal (ethylmercury) and autism, hypothesizing that the combination 
>> of
>> genetic susceptibility and environmental exposure to mercury in childhood
>> vaccines may cause neurotoxicity.
>>
>> Cumulative mercury burden through other sources, including in utero
>> exposures to mercury in fish or vaccines, may also lead to damage in
>> susceptible hosts. Timing and quantity of thimerosal dosing for the mouse
>> model were developed using the U.S. immunization schedule for children, 
>> with
>> doses calculated for mice based on 10th percentile weight of U.S. boys at
>> age two, four, six, and twelve months.
>>
>> The researchers found the subset of autoimmune disease susceptible mice 
>> with
>> thimerosal exposure to express many important aspects of the behavioral 
>> and
>> neuropathologic features of autism spectrum disorders, including:
>>
>> Abnormal response to novel environments;
>>
>> Behavioral impoverishment (limited range of behaviors and decreased
>> exploration of environment); Significant abnormalities in brain
>> architecture, affecting areas subserving emotion and cognition; Increased
>> brain size.
>>
>> These findings have relevance for identification of autism cases relating 
>> to
>> environmental factors; design of treatment strategies; and development of
>> rational immunization programs. The use of thimerosal in vaccines has 
>> been
>> reduced over the past few years, although it is still present in some
>> influenza vaccines. Identifying the connection between genetic
>> susceptibility and an environmental trigger for autism--in this case
>> thimerosal exposure--is important because it may promote discovery of
>> effective interventions for and limit exposure in a specific population,
>> stated the lead author Dr. Mady Hornig. Because the developing brain can 
>> be
>> exposed to toxins that are long gone by the time symptoms appear, clues
>> gathered in these animal models can then be evaluated through prospective
>> human birth cohorts--providing a powerful to tool to dissect the 
>> interaction
>> between genes and the environment over time.
>>
>> Citation source: Molecular Psychiatry 2004 Volume 9, advance on line
>> publication doi:10.1038/sj.mp.4001529
>>
>> For further information on this work, please contact Mady Hornig, MD,
>> Columbia University, Mailman School of Public Health, Greene Infectious
>> Disease Laboratory, 722 W 168th St, New York, New York 10032, United 
>> States
>> of America, phone: 212-342-9036; FAX: 949-824-1229; e-mail:
>> mh2092@columbia.edu
>>
>> ARTICLE: "Neurotoxic effects of postnatal thimerosal are mouse
>> strain-dependent"
>>
>> M Hornig, D Chian, W. I. Lipkin
>>
>> Greene Infectious Disease Laboratory, Mailman School of Public Health,
>> Columbia University, 722 W 168th St, New York, New York 10032 

..

> LadyLollipop wrote:
>> "cathyb"  wrote in message 
>> news:1129026621.348906.299650@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>>lynndb wrote:
>>>
>>>>Do you not think that sometimes we are only given the information that
>>>>certain people want us to hear ?? It is curious that the government
>>>>have a huge fund for vaccine damage considering many think it doesnt
>>>>happen !
>>>
>>>No-one thinks vaccine damage doesn't happen. The chances of it
>>>happening are vanishingly small, however, compared to the damage that
>>>would occur to many should we lose the herd immunity we have acquired
>>>to many diseases thanks to vaccination.
>>>
>>>However, this particular vaccine damage has been shown not to happen in
>>>many, huge studies.
>>>
>>>No-one stopped the original study from being published, and it was
>>>publicised massively. Which is more than can be said for the facts that
>>>emerged: that the study was carried out on fewer than ten children,
>>>that Wakefield was working at that time with lawyers of parents who
>>>were suing vaccine manufacturers, and that the conclusions of the study
>>>were repudiated by the other authors and the journal that published it.
>>>
>>>And even the fact that none of the massive epidemiological studies that
>>>have been carried out to find a link between the vaccine and autism
>>>have found none has received as much publicity as that original
>>>massively flawed study.
>>>
>>>So, in this case, no I don't think that 'sometimes we are only given
>>>the information that certain people want us to hear'.
>>>
>>>Cathy
>>
>>
>> That's a bunch of BS!
>>
>> http://www.altcorp.com/DentalInformation/fdahypocracy.htm
>>
>> http://www.altcorp.com/DentalInformation/autismhg.htm
>>
>> http://www.altcorp.com/DentalInformation/asdexperts.htm

>
> 

"Mark Probert"  wrote in message 
news:QxW2f.20457$Ge5.13803@fe10.lga...

> LadyLollipop wrote:
>> "Mark Probert"  wrote in message 
>> news:wfP2f.2584$Hm3.826@fe09.lga...
>>
>>>LadyLollipop wrote:
>>>
>>>>"Mark Probert"  wrote in message 
>>>>news:TVz2f.10063$dl2.4396@fe08.lga...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>LadyLollipop wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>"HCN"  wrote
>>>>>>
>>>>>><snip diversion>
>>>>>
>>>>><snip diversion, lie  + insult>

>
>
>
>
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>>>>"john"  wrote in message 
>>>>>>>news:1128843744.707247.10080@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>I'm being driven out says second expert to link autism and jabs
>>>>>>>>By Daniel Foggo
>>>>>>>>(Filed: 02/10/2005)
>>>>>>>>http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/10/02/naut02.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/10/02/ixhome.html
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>> 

"Mark Probert"  wrote in message 
news:oCW2f.20460$Ge5.3883@fe10.lga...

> LadyLollipop wrote:
>> "Mark Probert"  wrote in message 
>> news:bTP2f.2605$Hm3.1735@fe09.lga...
>>
>>>HCN wrote:
>>
>>
>> What an *idiot* can see through easily, poor Mark.

>>
>> <snip>
>>
>>>>"lynndb"  wrote in message 
>>>>news:1129017905.882231.290970@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I think if you took the time to speak with many parents of children
>>>>>with learning disabilities, who have spent years fighting the 'system'
>>>>>we have in place to educate a 'normal' child, you may find that Lisa
>>>>>has changed things beyond expectation for their children, giving them
>>>>>hope and the help they need for a happier future.
>>>>>
>>>>>Many of her cases have involved children who were happy healthy
>>>>>children the day before they were vaccinated, then turned into children
>>>>>who could no longer speak or function as they had previously ... could
>>>>>this be purely coincidence !!!. Im sure that the vaccine does not
>>>>>affect each and everyone of us that decides to have it, but children
>>>>>that are suseptable to a reaction can be affected, why should we put
>>>>>our childrens lives at risk in this way ?, all that is being asked is
>>>>>that fair research is done, and that it is accepted that it can be
>>>>>damaging. It should be every parents right to know the truth and have
>>>>>the choice to make a balanced decision as to what we subject our
>>>>>children to.
>>>>>
>>>>
>> 

..

> LadyLollipop wrote:
>> "HCN"  wrote in message 
>> news:VaKdnQ6X0b3OW9beRVn-gQ@comcast.com...
>>
>>>"lynndb"  wrote in message 
>>>news:1129017905.882231.290970@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>>>
>>>>I think if you took the time to speak with many parents of children
>>>>with learning disabilities, who have spent years fighting the 'system'
>>>>we have in place to educate a 'normal' child, you may find that Lisa
>>>>has changed things beyond expectation for their children, giving them
>>>>hope and the help they need for a happier future.
>>>>
>>>>Many of her cases have involved children who were happy healthy
>>>>children the day before they were vaccinated, then turned into children
>>>>who could no longer speak or function as they had previously ... could
>>>>this be purely coincidence !!!. Im sure that the vaccine does not
>>>>affect each and everyone of us that decides to have it, but children
>>>>that are suseptable to a reaction can be affected, why should we put
>>>>our childrens lives at risk in this way ?, all that is being asked is
>>>>that fair research is done, and that it is accepted that it can be
>>>>damaging. It should be every parents right to know the truth and have
>>>>the choice to make a balanced decision as to what we subject our
>>>>children to.
>>>>
>>>
>>>One major caveat:  Ms. Blackmore-Brown is a psychologist.  This means she 
>>>is not a medical doctor and if she is "diagnosing" some kind of "vaccine 
>>>damage" due to thimerosal she is going beyond her training.  If she is in 
>>>fact trying to play "doctor" then she should be disciplined (and a quick 
>>>Google search finds that this is not the first time that she has been 
>>>checked out).
>>>
>>>I have heard of speech therapists who have actually tried to "diagnose" 
>>>medical problems or have tried to refer children to chiropractors, 
>>>cranial sacral therapists or even to recommend supplements.  This is also 
>>>OUTside their boundaries, and can bring their licensing board upon them 
>>>(especially if they have a relationship with any of the outside 
>>>providers).
>>>
>>>Do you have any papers written by this person?  Do you have any journal 
>>>references on this "research" you speak of (forget Wakefield or anything 
>>>written in "Medical Hypothesis"... the former because his "research was 
>>>bought and paid for by lawyers, and the latter requires you to look up 
>>>the definition of the word "hypothesis").
>>
>>
>> That *excuse* won't work.
>>
>> One even a parent can quickly see that AFTER a child gets their 
>> vaccination, and can NOT speak correctly, they KNOW what caused it!!! 
>> This is NOT a coincidence!!!!!!!!
>>
>> Save you speech for an idiot.
>>
>> Many of her cases have involved children who were happy healthy
>>
>>>>children the day before they were vaccinated, then turned into children
>>>>who could no longer speak or function as they had previously ... could
>>>>this be purely coincidence !!!. Im sure that the vaccine does not
>>>>affect each and everyone of us that decides to have it, but children
>>>>that are suseptable to a reaction can be affected, why should we put
>>>>our childrens lives at risk in this way ?, all that is being asked is
>>>>that fair research is done, and that it is accepted that it can be
>>>>damaging. It should be every parents right to know the truth and have
>>>>the choice to make a balanced decision as to what we subject our
>>>>children to.
>>
>> 

"Peter Bowditch"  wrote in message 
news:n3eok19rv6s2hnrt8rrjv53pa5lshmnu8p@4ax.com...

> "lynndb"  wrote:
>
>>I think if you took the time to speak with many parents of children
>>with learning disabilities, who have spent years fighting the 'system'
>>we have in place to educate a 'normal' child, you may find that Lisa
>>has changed things beyond expectation for their children, giving them
>>hope and the help they need for a happier future.
>>
>>Many of her cases have involved children who were happy healthy
>>children the day before they were vaccinated, then turned into children
>>who could no longer speak or function as they had previously
>
> None of her cases "have involved children who were happy healthy
> children the day before they were vaccinated, then turned into
> children who could no longer speak or function as they had
> previously". She is lying.


I think NOT.

MANY parents have reported the same thing!

>
>> ... could
>>this be purely coincidence !!!. Im sure that the vaccine does not
>>affect each and everyone of us that decides to have it, but children
>>that are suseptable to a reaction can be affected, why should we put
>>our childrens lives at risk in this way ?, all that is being asked is
>>that fair research is done, and that it is accepted that it can be
>>damaging. It should be every parents right to know the truth and have
>>the choice to make a balanced decision as to what we subject our
>>children to.
>
> The research has been done. There is no link between vaccination and
> autism. Only liars and the deluded continue to believe that there is.


Poor, Peter


   http://www.flu.org.cn/news/2004986362.htm
      Thimerosal,New study reopens debate on vaccinations
      Published: Sep ,8,2004 16:21 PM
      By ###
      Special to The Wall Street Journal & Medicalnewstoday



By Tara Parker-Pope
The Wall Street Journal

Just a few months after the nation's top medical adviser rejected a link
between vaccines and autism, a mouse study has reignited the debate and
raised new fears among parents considering vaccinations and flu shots for
their kids.


For years, a cadre of parents and physicians have contended that thimerosal,
an ethyl-mercury compound that has been one of the most widely used vaccine
preservatives, is partly responsible for an apparent rise in autism in
recent decades. But broad population studies haven't supported the claim. In
May, a major report from the Institute of Medicine's Immunization Safety
Review Committee rejected a link between autism and vaccines.



But today, a congressional committee will review a June study from Columbia
University, which found that a preservative used in vaccines can cause
autism-like symptoms in a specific strain of mice. The research raises
questions about whether some people might be genetically vulnerable to the
effects of thimerosal.



The study also raises questions about a new push by the Centers for Disease
Control and Prevention to add flu shots to the immunization schedule for
school-age kids. The vast majority of flu shots given still contain the
preservative.



In the study, researchers administered thimerosal to four strains of young
mice. Three of the mice strains were unaffected by thimerosal, but the
fourth developed problems consistent with autism such as delayed growth,
social withdrawal and brain abnormalities. The mice were known to have a
genetic susceptibility to mercury.



Thimerosal, found in childhood vaccines, can increase the risk of
autism-like damage in mice



A new study indicates that postnatal exposure to thimerosal, a mercury
preservative commonly used in a number of childhood vaccines, can lead to
the development of autism-like damage in autoimmune disease susceptible
mice. This animal model, the first to show that the administration of
low-dose ethylmercury can lead to behavioral and neurological changes in the
developing brain, reinforces previous studies showing that a genetic
predisposition affects risk in combination with certain environmental
triggers. The study was conducted by researchers at the Jerome L. and Dawn
Greene

Infectious Disease Laboratory at the Mailman School of Public Health,
Columbia University. Over the past 20 years, there has been a striking
increase--at least ten-fold since 1985--in the number of children diagnosed
with autism spectrum disorders. Genetic factors alone cannot account for
this rise in prevalence. Researchers at the Mailman School, led by Dr. Mady
Hornig, created an animal model to explore the relationship between
thimerosal (ethylmercury) and autism, hypothesizing that the combination of
genetic susceptibility and environmental exposure to mercury in childhood
vaccines may cause neurotoxicity.

Cumulative mercury burden through other sources, including in utero
exposures to mercury in fish or vaccines, may also lead to damage in
susceptible hosts. Timing and quantity of thimerosal dosing for the mouse
model were developed using the U.S. immunization schedule for children, with
doses calculated for mice based on 10th percentile weight of U.S. boys at
age two, four, six, and twelve months.

The researchers found the subset of autoimmune disease susceptible mice with
thimerosal exposure to express many important aspects of the behavioral and
neuropathologic features of autism spectrum disorders, including:

Abnormal response to novel environments;

Behavioral impoverishment (limited range of behaviors and decreased
exploration of environment); Significant abnormalities in brain
architecture, affecting areas subserving emotion and cognition; Increased
brain size.

These findings have relevance for identification of autism cases relating to
environmental factors; design of treatment strategies; and development of
rational immunization programs. The use of thimerosal in vaccines has been
reduced over the past few years, although it is still present in some
influenza vaccines. Identifying the connection between genetic
susceptibility and an environmental trigger for autism--in this case
thimerosal exposure--is important because it may promote discovery of
effective interventions for and limit exposure in a specific population,
stated the lead author Dr. Mady Hornig. Because the developing brain can be
exposed to toxins that are long gone by the time symptoms appear, clues
gathered in these animal models can then be evaluated through prospective
human birth cohorts--providing a powerful to tool to dissect the interaction
between genes and the environment over time.

Citation source: Molecular Psychiatry 2004 Volume 9, advance on line
publication doi:10.1038/sj.mp.4001529

For further information on this work, please contact Mady Hornig, MD,
Columbia University, Mailman School of Public Health, Greene Infectious
Disease Laboratory, 722 W 168th St, New York, New York 10032, United States
of America, phone: 212-342-9036; FAX: 949-824-1229; e-mail:
mh2092@columbia.edu

ARTICLE: "Neurotoxic effects of postnatal thimerosal are mouse
strain-dependent"

M Hornig, D Chian, W. I. Lipkin

Greene Infectious Disease Laboratory, Mailman School of Public Health,
Columbia University, 722 W 168th St, New York, New York 10032



> -- 
> Peter Bowditch 

"Peter Bowditch"  wrote in message 
news:n3eok19rv6s2hnrt8rrjv53pa5lshmnu8p@4ax.com...

> "lynndb"  wrote:
>
>>I think if you took the time to speak with many parents of children
>>with learning disabilities, who have spent years fighting the 'system'
>>we have in place to educate a 'normal' child, you may find that Lisa
>>has changed things beyond expectation for their children, giving them
>>hope and the help they need for a happier future.
>>
>>Many of her cases have involved children who were happy healthy
>>children the day before they were vaccinated, then turned into children
>>who could no longer speak or function as they had previously
>
> None of her cases "have involved children who were happy healthy
> children the day before they were vaccinated, then turned into
> children who could no longer speak or function as they had
> previously". She is lying.
>
>> ... could
>>this be purely coincidence !!!. Im sure that the vaccine does not
>>affect each and everyone of us that decides to have it, but children
>>that are suseptable to a reaction can be affected, why should we put
>>our childrens lives at risk in this way ?, all that is being asked is
>>that fair research is done, and that it is accepted that it can be
>>damaging. It should be every parents right to know the truth and have
>>the choice to make a balanced decision as to what we subject our
>>children to.
>
> The research has been done. There is no link between vaccination and
> autism. Only liars and the deluded continue to believe that there is.


Liars, the deluded, and the greedy who still hope to sue the deep-pocket 
pharmaceutical companies. Some parents just can't let go until they find a 
place to hang the "blame"!





> -- 
> Peter Bowditch aa #2243
> The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
> Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au
> Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au
> To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com 

LadyLollipop wrote:

> "JohnDoe"  wrote in message
> news:434bac9b$0$12671$ba620dc5@text.nova.planet.nl...
> > lynndb wrote:
> >
> >> I am not anti-vac !!, both my children had the MMR jabs. I also
> >> understand that a widespread epidemic could potentially be tragic. Im
> >> just shocked at how blinkered some people have become, why try to
> >> strike someone off when they devote their entire lives to changing
> >> others lives for the better, and its all well and good going along with
> >> the research we are given to read, but surely when you actually see
> >> children who are damaged by vaccine, each and everyone of us would want
> >> to start asking questions and find out why !!
> >>
> >
> > I for one did not claim you were anti-vac. I just noted that despite your
> > claim that it seems you only get to hear one side, you obviously got
> > information from both sides, therefor falsifying that claim. And the
> > immensily flawed study claiming a link between vaccines and autism got
> > way, way more attention then followup studies which showed why the
> > original study was flawed and that found no link at all.
> >
> > And yes, surely when you actually see children who *seem to be* (!!)
> > damaged by vaccines you start to ask questions. And these questions were
> > asked, matters were researched and it turns out that as far as autism is
> > concerned, there is zero evidence to be found that vaccines cause autism.
> > The evidence we have clearly shows that if we actually want to find a
> > cause for autism, we should stop wasting valuable time and money into
> > looking at vaccines as a cause. Any further waste of sparse resources on
> > research in that direction will distract from finding the real cause of
> > autism and is therefor damaging to all people suffering from autism.
>
> There is a group here who are *organized medicine* members, their ONLY aim
> is to protect *organized medicine*, they also do NOT think people should
> have the right to chose. They want all people who chose not to vaccinate
> their children to burn in hell and some want to watch!


Hm. Lollipop's lying again. AFAIK, I'm the only person who came within
a football pitch of saying that, and my comment was not made with
reference to parents who do not vaccinate their kids; what I said was:

"And part of the reason they do that [shy away from having their kids
vaccinated] is that there are anti-vaccination
zealots out there who deliberately exaggerate the risks of vaccination,

who deliberately and blatantly lie about vaccination, about the
ingredients in vaccination, about the risks of vaccination. Even when
proven wrong in a public forum, some continue to do so for reasons
known only to themselves.


These people have caused needless deaths throughout the world; they
have blood on their hands, and I could wish I believed in hell for the
pleasure of watching them burn there."

Hyperbole, of course, but not directed at parents. Simply at liars.

Cathy

<snip Lollicrap>

"Rich"  wrote in message 
news:Au03f.312$Hs.268@tornado.socal.rr.com...

>
> "Peter Bowditch"  wrote in message 
> news:n3eok19rv6s2hnrt8rrjv53pa5lshmnu8p@4ax.com...
>> "lynndb"  wrote:
>>
>>>I think if you took the time to speak with many parents of children
>>>with learning disabilities, who have spent years fighting the 'system'
>>>we have in place to educate a 'normal' child, you may find that Lisa
>>>has changed things beyond expectation for their children, giving them
>>>hope and the help they need for a happier future.
>>>
>>>Many of her cases have involved children who were happy healthy
>>>children the day before they were vaccinated, then turned into children
>>>who could no longer speak or function as they had previously
>>
>> None of her cases "have involved children who were happy healthy
>> children the day before they were vaccinated, then turned into
>> children who could no longer speak or function as they had
>> previously". She is lying.
>>
>>> ... could
>>>this be purely coincidence !!!. Im sure that the vaccine does not
>>>affect each and everyone of us that decides to have it, but children
>>>that are suseptable to a reaction can be affected, why should we put
>>>our childrens lives at risk in this way ?, all that is being asked is
>>>that fair research is done, and that it is accepted that it can be
>>>damaging. It should be every parents right to know the truth and have
>>>the choice to make a balanced decision as to what we subject our
>>>children to.
>>
>> The research has been done. There is no link between vaccination and
>> autism. Only liars and the deluded continue to believe that there is.
>
> Liars, the deluded, and the greedy who still hope to sue the deep-pocket 
> pharmaceutical companies. Some parents just can't let go until they find a 
> place to hang the "blame"!


Liars, eager to believe other Liars!

http://www.vaccinationnews.com/Scandals/Feb_22_02/examples_of_resistance.htm

>
>> -- 
>> Peter Bowditch
>
> 

"cathyb"  wrote in message 
news:1129092869.539873.180300@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...

>
> LadyLollipop wrote:
>> "JohnDoe"  wrote in message
>> news:434bac9b$0$12671$ba620dc5@text.nova.planet.nl...
>> > lynndb wrote:
>> >
>> >> I am not anti-vac !!, both my children had the MMR jabs. I also
>> >> understand that a widespread epidemic could potentially be tragic. Im
>> >> just shocked at how blinkered some people have become, why try to
>> >> strike someone off when they devote their entire lives to changing
>> >> others lives for the better, and its all well and good going along 
>> >> with
>> >> the research we are given to read, but surely when you actually see
>> >> children who are damaged by vaccine, each and everyone of us would 
>> >> want
>> >> to start asking questions and find out why !!
>> >>
>> >
>> > I for one did not claim you were anti-vac. I just noted that despite 
>> > your
>> > claim that it seems you only get to hear one side, you obviously got
>> > information from both sides, therefor falsifying that claim. And the
>> > immensily flawed study claiming a link between vaccines and autism got
>> > way, way more attention then followup studies which showed why the
>> > original study was flawed and that found no link at all.
>> >
>> > And yes, surely when you actually see children who *seem to be* (!!)
>> > damaged by vaccines you start to ask questions. And these questions 
>> > were
>> > asked, matters were researched and it turns out that as far as autism 
>> > is
>> > concerned, there is zero evidence to be found that vaccines cause 
>> > autism.
>> > The evidence we have clearly shows that if we actually want to find a
>> > cause for autism, we should stop wasting valuable time and money into
>> > looking at vaccines as a cause. Any further waste of sparse resources 
>> > on
>> > research in that direction will distract from finding the real cause of
>> > autism and is therefor damaging to all people suffering from autism.
>>
>> There is a group here who are *organized medicine* members, their ONLY 
>> aim
>> is to protect *organized medicine*, they also do NOT think people should
>> have the right to chose. They want all people who chose not to vaccinate
>> their children to burn in hell and some want to watch!
>
> Hm. Lollipop's lying again. AFAIK, I'm the only person who came within
> a football pitch of saying that, and my comment was not made with
> reference to parents who do not vaccinate their kids; what I said was:
>
> "And part of the reason they do that [shy away from having their kids
> vaccinated] is that there are anti-vaccination
> zealots out there who deliberately exaggerate the risks of vaccination,
>
> who deliberately and blatantly lie about vaccination, about the
> ingredients in vaccination, about the risks of vaccination. Even when
> proven wrong in a public forum, some continue to do so for reasons
> known only to themselves.
>
>
> These people have caused needless deaths throughout the world; they
> have blood on their hands, and I could wish I believed in hell for the
> pleasure of watching them burn there."
>
> Hyperbole, of course, but not directed at parents. Simply at liars.
>
> Cathy


We will see WHO is lying.

Subject: Parents Have The Right To Decide Whether Or Not To Vaccinate

cathyb"  wrote in message

news:1118237028.923181.272300@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...



> LadyLollipop wrote:
>> "cathyb"  wrote in message
>> news:1118190431.570827.73570@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

>> > LadyLollipop wrote:
>> >> "cathyb"  wrote in message
>> >> news:1118158536.382523.76980@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...


>> >> > LadyLollipop wrote:
>> >> >> Let's get this straight.


>> >> >> No one is giving any advice on whether or not to vaccinate.


>> >> >> Each parent has the right to make their own informed decision.


>> >> >> If that decision differs from yours, it is not fair to say, they 
>> >> >> have
>> >> >> blood on their hands.


>> >> >> That is totally unfair and unkind.


>> >> >> There ARE risks. One never knows which child will be at risk.


>> >> >> There are guidelines, which very few, (if any doctors) inform
>> >> >> parents.


>> >> > <snip>


>> >> > LadyLollipop wrote:
>> >> >> Let's get this straight.


>> >> >> No one is giving any advice on whether or not to vaccinate.


>> >> >> Each parent has the right to make their own informed decision.


>> >> >> If that decision differs from yours, it is not fair to say, they 
>> >> >> have
>> >> >> blood on their hands.


>> >> >> That is totally unfair and unkind.


>> >> >> There ARE risks. One never knows which child will be at risk.


>> >> >> There are guidelines, which very few, (if any doctors) inform
>> >> >> parents.


>> >> > <snip>


>> >> Why are you snipping the guidelines?


>> >> > The people who have blood on their hands are the anti-vaccination
>> >> > zealots who have lied and exaggerated about the risks of
>> >> > vaccination,
>> >> > leading people not to vaccinate their kids.


>> >> And that would be??????


>> No answer??


>> >>  The parents who are
>> >> > deceived by this crap are acting in good faith and should be pitied.


>> >> Parents should be wise and look at ALL informatiion.


>> >> > As I pointed out in another thread:


>> >> > Here's the thing. Vaccination is a numbers game when it comes to
>> >> > risk,
>> >> > as is just about all human activity.
>> >> > I have lost count of the number of vaccination jabs my kids have
>> >> > had.
>> >> > Before each one though, I was nervous. I watched them closely for
>> >> > adverse reactions for a couple of weeks afterwards. After all, I was
>> >> > deliberately putting them at, admittedly miniscule, risk,and
>> >> > although
>> >> > it was for a much greater benefit, if they had had severe, adverse
>> >> > reactions, I imagine the guilt would have been crippling--although
>> >> > ridiculous.
>> >> > Ridiculous, because I would take them out of the surgery, and strap
>> >> > them into  a car. I couldn't even begin to guess how much more
>> >> > dangerous a car journey is than a vaccination--lots and lots and
>> >> > lots,
>> >> > though. And I thought nothing of it.
>> >> > People are intuitively very bad at risk assessment Jan--they waste
>> >> > money on lottery tickets, where the chances of winning are millions
>> >> > to
>> >> > one, instead of keeping money in a bank where they are guaranteed a
>> >> > (small) rate of return. And they take the relatively high risk of
>> >> > their  kids dying or being impaired by diseases, because they are
>> >> > frightened  of the much, much smaller risk of vaccine damage.
>> >> > And part of the reason they do that is that there are
>> >> > anti-vaccination
>> >> > zealots out there who deliberately exaggerate the risks of
>> >> > vaccination,  who deliberately and blatantly lie about vaccination, 
>> >> > about the
>> >> > ingredients in vaccination, about the risks of vaccination. Even
>> >> > when  proven wrong in a public forum, some continue to do so for 
>> >> > reasons
>> >> > known only to themselves.


>> >> That's quite a list. Do prove each one.


>> >> > These people have caused needless deaths throughout the world;


>> >> So you say, I think you are repeating something you ave been told.


>> >>  they
>> >> > have blood on their hands, and I could wish I believed in hell for
>> >> > the
>> >> > pleasure of watching them burn there. Evil is not too strong a word
>> >> > for


>> >> > some of the filth on this subject I have encountered online.


>> >> > Cathy


>> >> That's pathetic.


>> >> Now do go back, taking one thing at a time and show us what it is you
>> >> are
>> >> speaking of.


>> >> LL/Jan


>> > Are you seriously suggesting that a car journey is not as risky as a
>> > vaccination? That you are more likely to turn a profit with a lottery
>> > ticket than a bank account? It's like asking for proof that the sun
>> > will come up in the morning.


>> It is noted you didn't answer my questions, nor give any proof of your
>> rather long list of claims.


>> Now, you are asking if I am suggesting things.


>> As you can see, I did not.


>> > And you expect me to believe that you are unfamiliar with the whacko
>> > websites where people boast to each other about how they dissuaded
>> > their friends from vaccinating their kids?


>> Now, you are diverting.


>>  Well, if you are, I'm not about to corrupt you by leading you there.


>> Just answer my questions, and prove the list of your claims.


>> > I can't prove, of course, that anti-vac liars have caused a specific
>> > death; nor, of course can I actually prove that the sun will come up in
>> > the morning....


>> > Cathy


>> I see, so you made a lot of claims, you can't back up.


>> Rather serious ones.


>> I suggest, you settle down, you are not to be believed.


>> LL/Jan


> Coming from you---LOL.


> Cathy




An insult is noted.

The serious claims and unanswered questions remain unproven and unanswered,
as do the claims of your first post.


But if Jan really believes the crap she's peddling, she's as
thick as two short planks. Possibly beyond help. And if she's any
degree of intelligence at all, she (a) doesn't believe it, and (b)
still peddles it, in the certain knowledge that she is doing possibly
lethal harm.


You haven't explained just what I am peddling  that might possibly do lethal
harm.


It appears, you might lots of claims and insults with no basis.


LL/Jan

LadyLollipop wrote:


> "cathyb"  wrote in message
> news:1129092869.539873.180300@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > LadyLollipop wrote:
> >> "JohnDoe"  wrote in message
> >> news:434bac9b$0$12671$ba620dc5@text.nova.planet.nl...
> >> > lynndb wrote:
> >> >
> >> >> I am not anti-vac !!, both my children had the MMR jabs. I also
> >> >> understand that a widespread epidemic could potentially be tragic. Im
> >> >> just shocked at how blinkered some people have become, why try to
> >> >> strike someone off when they devote their entire lives to changing
> >> >> others lives for the better, and its all well and good going along
> >> >> with
> >> >> the research we are given to read, but surely when you actually see
> >> >> children who are damaged by vaccine, each and everyone of us would
> >> >> want
> >> >> to start asking questions and find out why !!
> >> >>
> >> >
> >> > I for one did not claim you were anti-vac. I just noted that despite
> >> > your
> >> > claim that it seems you only get to hear one side, you obviously got
> >> > information from both sides, therefor falsifying that claim. And the
> >> > immensily flawed study claiming a link between vaccines and autism got
> >> > way, way more attention then followup studies which showed why the
> >> > original study was flawed and that found no link at all.
> >> >
> >> > And yes, surely when you actually see children who *seem to be* (!!)
> >> > damaged by vaccines you start to ask questions. And these questions
> >> > were
> >> > asked, matters were researched and it turns out that as far as autism
> >> > is
> >> > concerned, there is zero evidence to be found that vaccines cause
> >> > autism.
> >> > The evidence we have clearly shows that if we actually want to find a
> >> > cause for autism, we should stop wasting valuable time and money into
> >> > looking at vaccines as a cause. Any further waste of sparse resources
> >> > on
> >> > research in that direction will distract from finding the real cause of
> >> > autism and is therefor damaging to all people suffering from autism.
> >>
> >> There is a group here who are *organized medicine* members, their ONLY
> >> aim
> >> is to protect *organized medicine*, they also do NOT think people should
> >> have the right to chose. They want all people who chose not to vaccinate
> >> their children to burn in hell and some want to watch!
> >
> > Hm. Lollipop's lying again. AFAIK, I'm the only person who came within
> > a football pitch of saying that, and my comment was not made with
> > reference to parents who do not vaccinate their kids; what I said was:
> >
> > "And part of the reason they do that [shy away from having their kids
> > vaccinated] is that there are anti-vaccination
> > zealots out there who deliberately exaggerate the risks of vaccination,
> >
> > who deliberately and blatantly lie about vaccination, about the
> > ingredients in vaccination, about the risks of vaccination. Even when
> > proven wrong in a public forum, some continue to do so for reasons
> > known only to themselves.
> >
> >
> > These people have caused needless deaths throughout the world; they
> > have blood on their hands, and I could wish I believed in hell for the
> > pleasure of watching them burn there."
> >
> > Hyperbole, of course, but not directed at parents. Simply at liars.
> >
> > Cathy
>
> We will see WHO is lying.


We already have. Or did you find someone who did actually "want all
people who chose (sic) not to vaccinate their children to burn in
hell"? You certainly haven't posted it here. Nor, having bothered to
plough through yet more witless reposting, did you demonstrate any
other lies.

Cathy


<snip yet more pointless and lengthy reposting>

"cathyb"  wrote in message 
news:1129099807.630616.233160@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

>
> LadyLollipop wrote:
>
>> "cathyb"  wrote in message
>> news:1129092869.539873.180300@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
>> >
>> > LadyLollipop wrote:
>> >> "JohnDoe"  wrote in message
>> >> news:434bac9b$0$12671$ba620dc5@text.nova.planet.nl...
>> >> > lynndb wrote:
>> >> >
>> >> >> I am not anti-vac !!, both my children had the MMR jabs. I also
>> >> >> understand that a widespread epidemic could potentially be tragic. 
>> >> >> Im
>> >> >> just shocked at how blinkered some people have become, why try to
>> >> >> strike someone off when they devote their entire lives to changing
>> >> >> others lives for the better, and its all well and good going along
>> >> >> with
>> >> >> the research we are given to read, but surely when you actually see
>> >> >> children who are damaged by vaccine, each and everyone of us would
>> >> >> want
>> >> >> to start asking questions and find out why !!
>> >> >>
>> >> >
>> >> > I for one did not claim you were anti-vac. I just noted that despite
>> >> > your
>> >> > claim that it seems you only get to hear one side, you obviously got
>> >> > information from both sides, therefor falsifying that claim. And the
>> >> > immensily flawed study claiming a link between vaccines and autism 
>> >> > got
>> >> > way, way more attention then followup studies which showed why the
>> >> > original study was flawed and that found no link at all.
>> >> >
>> >> > And yes, surely when you actually see children who *seem to be* (!!)
>> >> > damaged by vaccines you start to ask questions. And these questions
>> >> > were
>> >> > asked, matters were researched and it turns out that as far as 
>> >> > autism
>> >> > is
>> >> > concerned, there is zero evidence to be found that vaccines cause
>> >> > autism.
>> >> > The evidence we have clearly shows that if we actually want to find 
>> >> > a
>> >> > cause for autism, we should stop wasting valuable time and money 
>> >> > into
>> >> > looking at vaccines as a cause. Any further waste of sparse 
>> >> > resources
>> >> > on
>> >> > research in that direction will distract from finding the real cause 
>> >> > of
>> >> > autism and is therefor damaging to all people suffering from autism.
>> >>
>> >> There is a group here who are *organized medicine* members, their ONLY
>> >> aim
>> >> is to protect *organized medicine*, they also do NOT think people 
>> >> should
>> >> have the right to chose. They want all people who chose not to 
>> >> vaccinate
>> >> their children to burn in hell and some want to watch!
>> >
>> > Hm. Lollipop's lying again. AFAIK, I'm the only person who came within
>> > a football pitch of saying that, and my comment was not made with
>> > reference to parents who do not vaccinate their kids; what I said was:
>> >
>> > "And part of the reason they do that [shy away from having their kids
>> > vaccinated] is that there are anti-vaccination
>> > zealots out there who deliberately exaggerate the risks of vaccination,
>> >
>> > who deliberately and blatantly lie about vaccination, about the
>> > ingredients in vaccination, about the risks of vaccination. Even when
>> > proven wrong in a public forum, some continue to do so for reasons
>> > known only to themselves.
>> >
>> >
>> > These people have caused needless deaths throughout the world; they
>> > have blood on their hands, and I could wish I believed in hell for the
>> > pleasure of watching them burn there."
>> >
>> > Hyperbole, of course, but not directed at parents. Simply at liars.
>> >
>> > Cathy
>>
>> We will see WHO is lying.
>
> We already have. Or did you find someone who did actually "want all
> people who chose (sic) not to vaccinate their children to burn in
> hell"?


YES, I found where you would find pleasure in watching them.(sic)

 You certainly haven't posted it here.

Indeed I just posted it.

 Nor, having bothered to plough through yet more witless reposting, did you 
demonstrate any other lies.

>
> Cathy


We saw WHO was Lying.

Restored:

Subject: Parents Have The Right To Decide Whether Or Not To Vaccinate

cathyb"  wrote in message

news:1118237028.923181.272300@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...



> LadyLollipop wrote:
>> "cathyb"  wrote in message
>> news:1118190431.570827.73570@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

>> > LadyLollipop wrote:
>> >> "cathyb"  wrote in message
>> >> news:1118158536.382523.76980@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...


>> >> > LadyLollipop wrote:
>> >> >> Let's get this straight.


>> >> >> No one is giving any advice on whether or not to vaccinate.


>> >> >> Each parent has the right to make their own informed decision.


>> >> >> If that decision differs from yours, it is not fair to say, they
>> >> >> have
>> >> >> blood on their hands.


>> >> >> That is totally unfair and unkind.


>> >> >> There ARE risks. One never knows which child will be at risk.


>> >> >> There are guidelines, which very few, (if any doctors) inform
>> >> >> parents.


>> >> > <snip>


>> >> > LadyLollipop wrote:
>> >> >> Let's get this straight.


>> >> >> No one is giving any advice on whether or not to vaccinate.


>> >> >> Each parent has the right to make their own informed decision.


>> >> >> If that decision differs from yours, it is not fair to say, they
>> >> >> have
>> >> >> blood on their hands.


>> >> >> That is totally unfair and unkind.


>> >> >> There ARE risks. One never knows which child will be at risk.


>> >> >> There are guidelines, which very few, (if any doctors) inform
>> >> >> parents.


>> >> > <snip>


>> >> Why are you snipping the guidelines?


>> >> > The people who have blood on their hands are the anti-vaccination
>> >> > zealots who have lied and exaggerated about the risks of
>> >> > vaccination,
>> >> > leading people not to vaccinate their kids.


>> >> And that would be??????


>> No answer??


>> >>  The parents who are
>> >> > deceived by this crap are acting in good faith and should be pitied.


>> >> Parents should be wise and look at ALL informatiion.


>> >> > As I pointed out in another thread:


>> >> > Here's the thing. Vaccination is a numbers game when it comes to
>> >> > risk,
>> >> > as is just about all human activity.
>> >> > I have lost count of the number of vaccination jabs my kids have
>> >> > had.
>> >> > Before each one though, I was nervous. I watched them closely for
>> >> > adverse reactions for a couple of weeks afterwards. After all, I was
>> >> > deliberately putting them at, admittedly miniscule, risk,and
>> >> > although
>> >> > it was for a much greater benefit, if they had had severe, adverse
>> >> > reactions, I imagine the guilt would have been crippling--although
>> >> > ridiculous.
>> >> > Ridiculous, because I would take them out of the surgery, and strap
>> >> > them into  a car. I couldn't even begin to guess how much more
>> >> > dangerous a car journey is than a vaccination--lots and lots and
>> >> > lots,
>> >> > though. And I thought nothing of it.
>> >> > People are intuitively very bad at risk assessment Jan--they waste
>> >> > money on lottery tickets, where the chances of winning are millions
>> >> > to
>> >> > one, instead of keeping money in a bank where they are guaranteed a
>> >> > (small) rate of return. And they take the relatively high risk of
>> >> > their  kids dying or being impaired by diseases, because they are
>> >> > frightened  of the much, much smaller risk of vaccine damage.
>> >> > And part of the reason they do that is that there are
>> >> > anti-vaccination
>> >> > zealots out there who deliberately exaggerate the risks of
>> >> > vaccination,  who deliberately and blatantly lie about vaccination,
>> >> > about the
>> >> > ingredients in vaccination, about the risks of vaccination. Even
>> >> > when  proven wrong in a public forum, some continue to do so for
>> >> > reasons
>> >> > known only to themselves.


>> >> That's quite a list. Do prove each one.


>> >> > These people have caused needless deaths throughout the world;


>> >> So you say, I think you are repeating something you ave been told.


>> >>  they
>> >> > have blood on their hands, and I could wish I believed in hell for
>> >> > the
>> >> > pleasure of watching them burn there. Evil is not too strong a word
>> >> > for


>> >> > some of the filth on this subject I have encountered online.


>> >> > Cathy


>> >> That's pathetic.


>> >> Now do go back, taking one thing at a time and show us what it is you
>> >> are
>> >> speaking of.


>> >> LL/Jan


>> > Are you seriously suggesting that a car journey is not as risky as a
>> > vaccination? That you are more likely to turn a profit with a lottery
>> > ticket than a bank account? It's like asking for proof that the sun
>> > will come up in the morning.


>> It is noted you didn't answer my questions, nor give any proof of your
>> rather long list of claims.


>> Now, you are asking if I am suggesting things.


>> As you can see, I did not.


>> > And you expect me to believe that you are unfamiliar with the whacko
>> > websites where people boast to each other about how they dissuaded
>> > their friends from vaccinating their kids?


>> Now, you are diverting.


>>  Well, if you are, I'm not about to corrupt you by leading you there.


>> Just answer my questions, and prove the list of your claims.


>> > I can't prove, of course, that anti-vac liars have caused a specific
>> > death; nor, of course can I actually prove that the sun will come up in
>> > the morning....


>> > Cathy


>> I see, so you made a lot of claims, you can't back up.


>> Rather serious ones.


>> I suggest, you settle down, you are not to be believed.


>> LL/Jan


> Coming from you---LOL.


> Cathy




An insult is noted.

The serious claims and unanswered questions remain unproven and unanswered,
as do the claims of your first post.


But if Jan really believes the crap she's peddling, she's as
thick as two short planks. Possibly beyond help. And if she's any
degree of intelligence at all, she (a) doesn't believe it, and (b)
still peddles it, in the certain knowledge that she is doing possibly
lethal harm.


You haven't explained just what I am peddling  that might possibly do lethal
harm.


It appears, you might lots of claims and insults with no basis.


LL/Jan




> 

LadyLollipop wrote:


> "cathyb"  wrote in message
> news:1129099807.630616.233160@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> >
> > LadyLollipop wrote:
> >
> >> "cathyb"  wrote in message
> >> news:1129092869.539873.180300@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> >> >
> >> > LadyLollipop wrote:
> >> >> "JohnDoe"  wrote in message
> >> >> news:434bac9b$0$12671$ba620dc5@text.nova.planet.nl...
> >> >> > lynndb wrote:
> >> >> >
> >> >> >> I am not anti-vac !!, both my children had the MMR jabs. I also
> >> >> >> understand that a widespread epidemic could potentially be tragic.
> >> >> >> Im
> >> >> >> just shocked at how blinkered some people have become, why try to
> >> >> >> strike someone off when they devote their entire lives to changing
> >> >> >> others lives for the better, and its all well and good going along
> >> >> >> with
> >> >> >> the research we are given to read, but surely when you actually see
> >> >> >> children who are damaged by vaccine, each and everyone of us would
> >> >> >> want
> >> >> >> to start asking questions and find out why !!
> >> >> >>
> >> >> >
> >> >> > I for one did not claim you were anti-vac. I just noted that despite
> >> >> > your
> >> >> > claim that it seems you only get to hear one side, you obviously got
> >> >> > information from both sides, therefor falsifying that claim. And the
> >> >> > immensily flawed study claiming a link between vaccines and autism
> >> >> > got
> >> >> > way, way more attention then followup studies which showed why the
> >> >> > original study was flawed and that found no link at all.
> >> >> >
> >> >> > And yes, surely when you actually see children who *seem to be* (!!)
> >> >> > damaged by vaccines you start to ask questions. And these questions
> >> >> > were
> >> >> > asked, matters were researched and it turns out that as far as
> >> >> > autism
> >> >> > is
> >> >> > concerned, there is zero evidence to be found that vaccines cause
> >> >> > autism.
> >> >> > The evidence we have clearly shows that if we actually want to find
> >> >> > a
> >> >> > cause for autism, we should stop wasting valuable time and money
> >> >> > into
> >> >> > looking at vaccines as a cause. Any further waste of sparse
> >> >> > resources
> >> >> > on
> >> >> > research in that direction will distract from finding the real cause
> >> >> > of
> >> >> > autism and is therefor damaging to all people suffering from autism.
> >> >>
> >> >> There is a group here who are *organized medicine* members, their ONLY
> >> >> aim
> >> >> is to protect *organized medicine*, they also do NOT think people
> >> >> should
> >> >> have the right to chose. They want all people who chose not to
> >> >> vaccinate
> >> >> their children to burn in hell and some want to watch!
> >> >
> >> > Hm. Lollipop's lying again. AFAIK, I'm the only person who came within
> >> > a football pitch of saying that, and my comment was not made with
> >> > reference to parents who do not vaccinate their kids; what I said was:
> >> >
> >> > "And part of the reason they do that [shy away from having their kids
> >> > vaccinated] is that there are anti-vaccination
> >> > zealots out there who deliberately exaggerate the risks of vaccination,
> >> >
> >> > who deliberately and blatantly lie about vaccination, about the
> >> > ingredients in vaccination, about the risks of vaccination. Even when
> >> > proven wrong in a public forum, some continue to do so for reasons
> >> > known only to themselves.
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > These people have caused needless deaths throughout the world; they
> >> > have blood on their hands, and I could wish I believed in hell for the
> >> > pleasure of watching them burn there."
> >> >
> >> > Hyperbole, of course, but not directed at parents. Simply at liars.
> >> >
> >> > Cathy
> >>
> >> We will see WHO is lying.
> >
> > We already have. Or did you find someone who did actually "want all
> > people who chose (sic) not to vaccinate their children to burn in
> > hell"?
>
> YES, I found where you would find pleasure in watching them.(sic)


What did that '(sic)' refer to? Is this yet another use of English you
are unfamiliar with?


>
>  You certainly haven't posted it here.


But indeed I have. Did you fail to read for comprehension again?

However, as I already showed by posting it (do try to keep up), it was
not aimed at parents who don't vaccinate their kids. Indeed, as you
posted I said some months ago, "The parents who are deceived by this
[anti-vac] crap are acting in good faith and should be pitied."

Were you in error, or was that another of your lies?


Cathy

<snip yet more pointless reposting. If anyone desperately wants to read
it (LOL) see La Lollicrap's post>

I would just like to point out in the middle of your 'bitching' at each
other, that if you had bothered to spell Lisa Blakemore-Brown's name
correctly in your search engine you may have come up with some
interesting reading, and find that her research on vaccine damage is
not something she has just decided off the top of her head !!

my google search has 68,000 returns

maybe this would be of interest ... looks like scientific research to
me !

http://www.independent-media.tv/item.cfm?fmedia_id=10472&fcategory_desc=Under%20Reported

lynndb wrote:

> maybe this would be of interest ... looks like scientific research to
> me !


Yet it looks like a media report to me. How can you say that an article
about a disgruntled psychologist who says "As an example of the
increase in health problems, she tells how a colleague "last week
mentioned that out of 16 children on a school trip involving his child,
15 had asthma." should be taken seriously as an example of scientific
research?.

She makes assertions that have been proved wrong time and again in the
peer-reviewed literature. She herself appears nowhere on pubmed as a
published scientist, and the article mentioned, when you look it up at
the journal, makes only passing mention of thimerosal; it  is about
mercury exposure in general, and says that fish is the major culprit.
It says nothing about a connection between autism and vaccination.

Blakemore-Brown apparently 'blames the vaccines for the widespread
problems in recent years where "children are arriving at school unable
to use a knife and fork, pay attention or understand their social
worlds, highly sensitised to all aspects of the real world."'

Funny; there've always been kids at school like that. Luckily, they get
attention and treatment these days, though.

Strange that she doesn't come up with any evidence other than anecdote
and opinion. Or mention that all of the large-scale epidemiological
studies have proven that she's talking rubbish.

This article is not science; it doesn't even come close. Come up with a
decent study that shows a correlation between vaccination and autism.
Oh, sorry; none of them do.

Cathy


>
> http://www.independent-media.tv/item.cfm?fmedia_id=10472&fcategory_desc=Under%20Reported

lynndb wrote:


> maybe this would be of interest ... looks like scientific research to
> me !
> 
> http://www.independent-media.tv/item.cfm?fmedia_id=10472&fcategory_desc=Under%20Reported
> 


Not to me it does. It's a newsitem, not a scientific research paper. You 
have obviously not seen many researchpapers.
Some remarks on the piece:

quote: " Lisa Blakemore-Brown, is a Psychologist in the UK, who believes 
there is a definite link..."

So she believes there is a link, it doesn't say she has evidence or 
research to back it up.

quote: "Mercury-based Thimerosal, is a preservative developed in the 
1930s by Eli Lilly, which has been routinely used ever since in vaccines 
as well as many other products. It contains 49.5% ethyl mercury..."

That number sounds familiar. It's been discussed in MHA before.
First of all, 49.5% of what? Sound ominous doesn't it, people might 
think that nearly 50% of a vaccine shot is mercury. Throwing out numbers 
without any context is a sign of crackpottery, certainly not of science.

quote: "She explains why the autism epidemic did not occur sooner. "Over 
the course of the last century, individuals were given single vaccines 
with single amounts of mercury," Blakely reports, "but with the 
introduction of triple vaccines the amount of mercury contained within 
the preservative was multiplied and the cumulative effects are only just 
now being discovered by the public," she adds."

Let me apply some logic here. She claims that the mercury has a 
cumulative effect, but somehow if you give it in individual doses it 
does not accumulate since single vaccines as used before did not cause 
autism. Sounds pretty selfcontradictory to me.

quote: " The constant reference to allergic effects and immune system 
interference echo Blakemore's own findings that early vaccines seemed to 
trigger various allergies and intolerances in some children. She 
determined during the mid to late 1990's, "that it was these medically 
vulnerable and allergic individuals who were more likely to have reacted 
to the MMR - which contains no Thiomersal."

Is she saying here that she finds the same effects in vaccines that 
contain no thimerosal as she does in the ones that do? My my.


quote: "Unfortunately, she reports, "because of Red Herring arguments 
and denial of what is known, we have yet to fully explore in a 
scientific way, why so many children reacted to vaccines."

And here we have it, she admits herself there isn't any science she is 
basing her claims on, since, and I quote: "we have *yet* to fully 
explore in a scientific way, why..." (emphasis mine).
That is not stopping her from presenting her hypothesis as fact.
She also says 'denial of what is known". I'd say we know things from 
scientific research, but in the same sentence she says that the research 
has not been done.

All in all, the article is typical baseless fearmongering, definately 
not science.

And I spelled "Blakemore-Brown" correctly in Pubmed - I got nothing.
Google scholar gives me one hit, which takes me to info on her book.
No scientific research whatsoever. Why am I not surprised.

lynndb wrote:


> I would just like to point out in the middle of your 'bitching' at each
> other, that if you had bothered to spell Lisa Blakemore-Brown's name
> correctly in your search engine you may have come up with some
> interesting reading, and find that her research on vaccine damage is
> not something she has just decided off the top of her head !!
> 
> my google search has 68,000 returns
> 

Try google scholar and Pubmed. Those give scientific research results. 
Let's see if you can get just one piece of scientific research by Lisa 
Blakemore-Brown out of them.

JohnDoe wrote:

> lynndb wrote:
>
> > maybe this would be of interest ... looks like scientific research to
> > me !
> >
> > http://www.independent-media.tv/item.cfm?fmedia_id=10472&fcategory_desc=Under%20Reported
> >
>
> Not to me it does. It's a newsitem, not a scientific research paper. You
> have obviously not seen many researchpapers.
> Some remarks on the piece:
>
> quote: " Lisa Blakemore-Brown, is a Psychologist in the UK, who believes
> there is a definite link..."
>
> So she believes there is a link, it doesn't say she has evidence or
> research to back it up.
>
> quote: "Mercury-based Thimerosal, is a preservative developed in the
> 1930s by Eli Lilly, which has been routinely used ever since in vaccines
> as well as many other products. It contains 49.5% ethyl mercury..."
>
> That number sounds familiar. It's been discussed in MHA before.
> First of all, 49.5% of what? Sound ominous doesn't it, people might
> think that nearly 50% of a vaccine shot is mercury. Throwing out numbers
> without any context is a sign of crackpottery, certainly not of science.
>
> quote: "She explains why the autism epidemic did not occur sooner. "Over
> the course of the last century, individuals were given single vaccines
> with single amounts of mercury," Blakely reports, "but with the
> introduction of triple vaccines the amount of mercury contained within
> the preservative was multiplied and the cumulative effects are only just
> now being discovered by the public," she adds."
>
> Let me apply some logic here. She claims that the mercury has a
> cumulative effect, but somehow if you give it in individual doses it
> does not accumulate since single vaccines as used before did not cause
> autism. Sounds pretty selfcontradictory to me.
>
> quote: " The constant reference to allergic effects and immune system
> interference echo Blakemore's own findings that early vaccines seemed to
> trigger various allergies and intolerances in some children. She
> determined during the mid to late 1990's, "that it was these medically
> vulnerable and allergic individuals who were more likely to have reacted
> to the MMR - which contains no Thiomersal."
>
> Is she saying here that she finds the same effects in vaccines that
> contain no thimerosal as she does in the ones that do? My my.
>
>
> quote: "Unfortunately, she reports, "because of Red Herring arguments
> and denial of what is known, we have yet to fully explore in a
> scientific way, why so many children reacted to vaccines."
>
> And here we have it, she admits herself there isn't any science she is
> basing her claims on, since, and I quote: "we have *yet* to fully
> explore in a scientific way, why..." (emphasis mine).
> That is not stopping her from presenting her hypothesis as fact.
> She also says 'denial of what is known". I'd say we know things from
> scientific research, but in the same sentence she says that the research
> has not been done.
>
> All in all, the article is typical baseless fearmongering, definately
> not science.
>
> And I spelled "Blakemore-Brown" correctly in Pubmed - I got nothing.
> Google scholar gives me one hit, which takes me to info on her book.
> No scientific research whatsoever. Why am I not surprised.


You can bet your life she's earning a good deal of publicity from
morning talkshows and such magnificent bastions of scientific integrity
as "The Daily Telegaph" and "The Daily Mail" (the latter publication
having been almost entirely responsible for the hysteria that followed
Andrew "paid by the lawyers" Wakefield's inital publication.

Sheesh.

Cathy

"cathyb"  wrote in message 
news:1129101954.792631.97820@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

>
>
> <snip yet more pointless reposting. If anyone desperately wants to read
> it (LOL) see La Lollicrap's post>
>


It's not pointless to Lollipop, I've concluded. Her delusion that her act of 
snipping our comments makes them go away actually gets projected onto us and 
she feels we are making her valuable contributions go away as well by 
snipping. She cannot understand the concept of snipping for brevity or 
clarity . . . every act of snipping, hers or ours, is seen as a hostile act, 
a little skirmish in her little war. Snipping, in fact, has so much MEANING 
for her, that lately she has taken to repeatedly responding to posts with 
ONLY what you call "pointless reposting," the emphatic (but unmarked) 
snipping meant to have conveyed volumes. Her delusions are getting worse. 
She seems to be slipping down and down lately. Sad that.

--Rich

"lynndb"  wrote in message 
news:1129113987.048234.172730@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

> maybe this would be of interest ... looks like scientific research to
> me !
>
> http://www.independent-media.tv/item.cfm?fmedia_id=10472&fcategory_desc=Under%20Reported
>


If that looks like scientific research to you, you have little experience 
looking at scientific research. It is not. You miss the point of my comment 
as well.

Parents of autististic children are misdirecting their efforts and 
attention. To do the best possible for their children, they should be 
searching for ways to maximise the potential and functioning of those 
children, rather than casting themselves as victims and seeking to afix 
blame. Vaccines were targeted because the anti-vac movement, the 
class-action shysters, and greedy parents found strength in numbers. Once 
that coalition got rolling, the truth that vaccines are unrelated to autism 
was irrelevant to them; to accept the truth that the cause of autism is 
still unknown would render the alliance moot.
-- 


--Rich

Recommended websites:

 http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
 http://www.acahf.org.au
 http://www.quackwatch.org/
 http://www.skeptic.com/
 http://www.csicop.org/

LadyLollipop wrote:

> "Mark Probert"  wrote in message 
> news:QxW2f.20457$Ge5.13803@fe10.lga...
> 
>>LadyLollipop wrote:
>>
>>>"Mark Probert"  wrote in message 
>>>news:wfP2f.2584$Hm3.826@fe09.lga...
>>>
>>>
>>>>LadyLollipop wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>"Mark Probert"  wrote in message 
>>>>>news:TVz2f.10063$dl2.4396@fe08.lga...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>LadyLollipop wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>"HCN"  wrote
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>><snip diversion>
>>>>>>
>>>>>><snip diversion, lie  + insult>


Jan CANNOT handle the truth!

It is not a diversion to point out that this physician is following in 
Wakefield's slime which caused a massive epidemic in Great Britain. Only 
a child hater would think otherwise.




>>>>>>>>"john"  wrote in message 
>>>>>>>>news:1128843744.707247.10080@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>I'm being driven out says second expert to link autism and jabs
>>>>>>>>>By Daniel Foggo
>>>>>>>>>(Filed: 02/10/2005)
>>>>>>>>>http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/10/02/naut02.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/10/02/ixhome.html
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
> 

LadyLollipop wrote:

> .
> 
>>LadyLollipop wrote:
>>
>>>"cathyb"  wrote in message 
>>>news:1129026621.348906.299650@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>>
>>>
>>>>lynndb wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>Do you not think that sometimes we are only given the information that
>>>>>certain people want us to hear ?? It is curious that the government
>>>>>have a huge fund for vaccine damage considering many think it doesnt
>>>>>happen !
>>>>
>>>>No-one thinks vaccine damage doesn't happen. The chances of it
>>>>happening are vanishingly small, however, compared to the damage that
>>>>would occur to many should we lose the herd immunity we have acquired
>>>>to many diseases thanks to vaccination.
>>>>
>>>>However, this particular vaccine damage has been shown not to happen in
>>>>many, huge studies.
>>>>
>>>>No-one stopped the original study from being published, and it was
>>>>publicised massively. Which is more than can be said for the facts that
>>>>emerged: that the study was carried out on fewer than ten children,
>>>>that Wakefield was working at that time with lawyers of parents who
>>>>were suing vaccine manufacturers, and that the conclusions of the study
>>>>were repudiated by the other authors and the journal that published it.
>>>>
>>>>And even the fact that none of the massive epidemiological studies that
>>>>have been carried out to find a link between the vaccine and autism
>>>>have found none has received as much publicity as that original
>>>>massively flawed study.
>>>>
>>>>So, in this case, no I don't think that 'sometimes we are only given
>>>>the information that certain people want us to hear'.
>>>>
>>>>Cathy
>>>
>>>
>>>That's a bunch of BS!
>>>
>>>http://www.altcorp.com/DentalInformation/fdahypocracy.htm
>>>
>>>http://www.altcorp.com/DentalInformation/autismhg.htm
>>>
>>>http://www.altcorp.com/DentalInformation/asdexperts.htm



There was no BS until you posted Haley's profit driven sites.

Mark Probert wrote:

> LadyLollipop wrote:
> 
>> "Mark Probert"  wrote in message 
>> news:NcP2f.2582$Hm3.1820@fe09.lga...
>>
>>> lynndb wrote:
>>>
>>>> Do you not think that sometimes we are only given the information that
>>>> certain people want us to hear ?? It is curious that the government
>>>> have a huge fund for vaccine damage considering many think it doesnt
>>>> happen !
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> No sequitur. However, several large epidemiological studies on 
>>> various populations have shown that there is no link. The findings 
>>> have been replicated and duplicated, which is one of the hallmarks of 
>>> scientific accuracy.
> 
> 
> That's nice. Where is the follow-up showing that humans are affected in 
> the same way?
> 
> There is none.


And, there is no answer from Jan....


> 
> 
> 
>>    http://www.flu.org.cn/news/2004986362.htm
>>       Thimerosal,New study reopens debate on vaccinations
>>       Published: Sep ,8,2004 16:21 PM
>>       By ###
>>       Special to The Wall Street Journal & Medicalnewstoday
>>
>>
>>
>> By Tara Parker-Pope
>> The Wall Street Journal
>>
>> Just a few months after the nation's top medical adviser rejected a link
>> between vaccines and autism, a mouse study has reignited the debate and
>> raised new fears among parents considering vaccinations and flu shots for
>> their kids.
>>
>>
>> For years, a cadre of parents and physicians have contended that 
>> thimerosal,
>> an ethyl-mercury compound that has been one of the most widely used 
>> vaccine
>> preservatives, is partly responsible for an apparent rise in autism in
>> recent decades. But broad population studies haven't supported the 
>> claim. In
>> May, a major report from the Institute of Medicine's Immunization Safety
>> Review Committee rejected a link between autism and vaccines.
>>
>>
>>
>> But today, a congressional committee will review a June study from 
>> Columbia
>> University, which found that a preservative used in vaccines can cause
>> autism-like symptoms in a specific strain of mice. The research raises
>> questions about whether some people might be genetically vulnerable to 
>> the
>> effects of thimerosal.
>>
>>
>>
>> The study also raises questions about a new push by the Centers for 
>> Disease
>> Control and Prevention to add flu shots to the immunization schedule for
>> school-age kids. The vast majority of flu shots given still contain the
>> preservative.
>>
>>
>>
>> In the study, researchers administered thimerosal to four strains of 
>> young
>> mice. Three of the mice strains were unaffected by thimerosal, but the
>> fourth developed problems consistent with autism such as delayed growth,
>> social withdrawal and brain abnormalities. The mice were known to have a
>> genetic susceptibility to mercury.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thimerosal, found in childhood vaccines, can increase the risk of
>> autism-like damage in mice
>>
>>
>>
>> A new study indicates that postnatal exposure to thimerosal, a mercury
>> preservative commonly used in a number of childhood vaccines, can lead to
>> the development of autism-like damage in autoimmune disease susceptible
>> mice. This animal model, the first to show that the administration of
>> low-dose ethylmercury can lead to behavioral and neurological changes 
>> in the
>> developing brain, reinforces previous studies showing that a genetic
>> predisposition affects risk in combination with certain environmental
>> triggers. The study was conducted by researchers at the Jerome L. and 
>> Dawn
>> Greene
>>
>> Infectious Disease Laboratory at the Mailman School of Public Health,
>> Columbia University. Over the past 20 years, there has been a striking
>> increase--at least ten-fold since 1985--in the number of children 
>> diagnosed
>> with autism spectrum disorders. Genetic factors alone cannot account for
>> this rise in prevalence. Researchers at the Mailman School, led by Dr. 
>> Mady
>> Hornig, created an animal model to explore the relationship between
>> thimerosal (ethylmercury) and autism, hypothesizing that the 
>> combination of
>> genetic susceptibility and environmental exposure to mercury in childhood
>> vaccines may cause neurotoxicity.
>>
>> Cumulative mercury burden through other sources, including in utero
>> exposures to mercury in fish or vaccines, may also lead to damage in
>> susceptible hosts. Timing and quantity of thimerosal dosing for the mouse
>> model were developed using the U.S. immunization schedule for 
>> children, with
>> doses calculated for mice based on 10th percentile weight of U.S. boys at
>> age two, four, six, and twelve months.
>>
>> The researchers found the subset of autoimmune disease susceptible 
>> mice with
>> thimerosal exposure to express many important aspects of the 
>> behavioral and
>> neuropathologic features of autism spectrum disorders, including:
>>
>> Abnormal response to novel environments;
>>
>> Behavioral impoverishment (limited range of behaviors and decreased
>> exploration of environment); Significant abnormalities in brain
>> architecture, affecting areas subserving emotion and cognition; Increased
>> brain size.
>>
>> These findings have relevance for identification of autism cases 
>> relating to
>> environmental factors; design of treatment strategies; and development of
>> rational immunization programs. The use of thimerosal in vaccines has 
>> been
>> reduced over the past few years, although it is still present in some
>> influenza vaccines. Identifying the connection between genetic
>> susceptibility and an environmental trigger for autism--in this case
>> thimerosal exposure--is important because it may promote discovery of
>> effective interventions for and limit exposure in a specific population,
>> stated the lead author Dr. Mady Hornig. Because the developing brain 
>> can be
>> exposed to toxins that are long gone by the time symptoms appear, clues
>> gathered in these animal models can then be evaluated through prospective
>> human birth cohorts--providing a powerful to tool to dissect the 
>> interaction
>> between genes and the environment over time.
>>
>> Citation source: Molecular Psychiatry 2004 Volume 9, advance on line
>> publication doi:10.1038/sj.mp.4001529
>>
>> For further information on this work, please contact Mady Hornig, MD,
>> Columbia University, Mailman School of Public Health, Greene Infectious
>> Disease Laboratory, 722 W 168th St, New York, New York 10032, United 
>> States
>> of America, phone: 212-342-9036; FAX: 949-824-1229; e-mail:
>> mh2092@columbia.edu
>>
>> ARTICLE: "Neurotoxic effects of postnatal thimerosal are mouse
>> strain-dependent"
>>
>> M Hornig, D Chian, W. I. Lipkin
>>
>> Greene Infectious Disease Laboratory, Mailman School of Public Health,
>> Columbia University, 722 W 168th St, New York, New York 10032
>>

LadyLollipop wrote:

> "Mark Probert"  wrote in message 
> news:oCW2f.20460$Ge5.3883@fe10.lga...
> 
>>LadyLollipop wrote:
>>
>>>"Mark Probert"  wrote in message 
>>>news:bTP2f.2605$Hm3.1735@fe09.lga...
>>>
>>>
>>>>HCN wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>What an *idiot* can see through easily, poor Mark.


More snipping by Jan, more restoring of what Jan cannot handle...

If that were so, you would have 20/20 vision.

The facts are:

Google Scholar:

Your search - Lisa Blackmore-Brown - did not match any articles.

Your search - Blackmore-Brown - did not match any articles.

PublicMed:

The following term was not found and ignored: Blackmore-Brown.

http://www.highbeam.com/ref/ref_search.asp?M=Y&more=1

No results found for Blackmore-Brown..

Jan does not like facts.



> 
> 
>>><snip>
>>>
>>>>>"lynndb"  wrote in message 
>>>>>news:1129017905.882231.290970@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>I think if you took the time to speak with many parents of children
>>>>>>with learning disabilities, who have spent years fighting the 'system'
>>>>>>we have in place to educate a 'normal' child, you may find that Lisa
>>>>>>has changed things beyond expectation for their children, giving them
>>>>>>hope and the help they need for a happier future.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>Many of her cases have involved children who were happy healthy
>>>>>>children the day before they were vaccinated, then turned into children
>>>>>>who could no longer speak or function as they had previously ... could
>>>>>>this be purely coincidence !!!. Im sure that the vaccine does not
>>>>>>affect each and everyone of us that decides to have it, but children
>>>>>>that are suseptable to a reaction can be affected, why should we put
>>>>>>our childrens lives at risk in this way ?, all that is being asked is
>>>>>>that fair research is done, and that it is accepted that it can be
>>>>>>damaging. It should be every parents right to know the truth and have
>>>>>>the choice to make a balanced decision as to what we subject our
>>>>>>children to.
>>>>>>
>>>>>
> 

LadyLollipop wrote:

> .
> 
>>LadyLollipop wrote:
>>
>>>"HCN"  wrote in message 
>>>news:VaKdnQ6X0b3OW9beRVn-gQ@comcast.com...
>>>
>>>
>>>>"lynndb"  wrote in message 
>>>>news:1129017905.882231.290970@f14g2000cwb.googlegroups.com...
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I think if you took the time to speak with many parents of children
>>>>>with learning disabilities, who have spent years fighting the 'system'
>>>>>we have in place to educate a 'normal' child, you may find that Lisa
>>>>>has changed things beyond expectation for their children, giving them
>>>>>hope and the help they need for a happier future.
>>>>>
>>>>>Many of her cases have involved children who were happy healthy
>>>>>children the day before they were vaccinated, then turned into children
>>>>>who could no longer speak or function as they had previously ... could
>>>>>this be purely coincidence !!!. Im sure that the vaccine does not
>>>>>affect each and everyone of us that decides to have it, but children
>>>>>that are suseptable to a reaction can be affected, why should we put
>>>>>our childrens lives at risk in this way ?, all that is being asked is
>>>>>that fair research is done, and that it is accepted that it can be
>>>>>damaging. It should be every parents right to know the truth and have
>>>>>the choice to make a balanced decision as to what we subject our
>>>>>children to.
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>One major caveat:  Ms. Blackmore-Brown is a psychologist.  This means she 
>>>>is not a medical doctor and if she is "diagnosing" some kind of "vaccine 
>>>>damage" due to thimerosal she is going beyond her training.  If she is in 
>>>>fact trying to play "doctor" then she should be disciplined (and a quick 
>>>>Google search finds that this is not the first time that she has been 
>>>>checked out).
>>>>
>>>>I have heard of speech therapists who have actually tried to "diagnose" 
>>>>medical problems or have tried to refer children to chiropractors, 
>>>>cranial sacral therapists or even to recommend supplements.  This is also 
>>>>OUTside their boundaries, and can bring their licensing board upon them 
>>>>(especially if they have a relationship with any of the outside 
>>>>providers).
>>>>
>>>>Do you have any papers written by this person?  Do you have any journal 
>>>>references on this "research" you speak of (forget Wakefield or anything 
>>>>written in "Medical Hypothesis"... the former because his "research was 
>>>>bought and paid for by lawyers, and the latter requires you to look up 
>>>>the definition of the word "hypothesis").
>>>
>>>
>>>That *excuse* won't work.
>>>
>>>One even a parent can quickly see that AFTER a child gets their 
>>>vaccination, and can NOT speak correctly, they KNOW what caused it!!! 
>>>This is NOT a coincidence!!!!!!!!
>>>
>>>Save you speech for an idiot.


That is why I answer you.



>>>
>>>Many of her cases have involved children who were happy healthy
>>>
>>>
>>>>>children the day before they were vaccinated, then turned into children
>>>>>who could no longer speak or function as they had previously ... could
>>>>>this be purely coincidence !!!. Im sure that the vaccine does not
>>>>>affect each and everyone of us that decides to have it, but children
>>>>>that are suseptable to a reaction can be affected, why should we put
>>>>>our childrens lives at risk in this way ?, all that is being asked is
>>>>>that fair research is done, and that it is accepted that it can be
>>>>>damaging. It should be every parents right to know the truth and have
>>>>>the choice to make a balanced decision as to what we subject our
>>>>>children to.
>>>
>>>
> 

LadyLollipop wrote:


> I think NOT.


true.

lynndb wrote:

> maybe this would be of interest ... looks like scientific research to
> me !
> 
> http://www.independent-media.tv/item.cfm?fmedia_id=10472&fcategory_desc=Under%20Reported
> 



If this opinion article looks like scientific research, please see an 
aphthalmologist.

Blakemore-Brown is an UNPUBLISHED psychologist with no scientific 
credentials that I can find.

Pringle writes pure anti-vac liar crap.

JohnDoe wrote:

> lynndb wrote:
> 
>> maybe this would be of interest ... looks like scientific research to
>> me !
>>
>> http://www.independent-media.tv/item.cfm?fmedia_id=10472&fcategory_desc=Under%20Reported 
>>
>>
> 
> Not to me it does. It's a newsitem, not a scientific research paper.


I would not raise anything Pringle writes to the level of a newsitem. 
Check out her continuous stream of anti-vac lies.


  You

> have obviously not seen many researchpapers.
> Some remarks on the piece:
> 
> quote: " Lisa Blakemore-Brown, is a Psychologist in the UK, who believes 
> there is a definite link..."
> 
> So she believes there is a link, it doesn't say she has evidence or 
> research to back it up.
> 
> quote: "Mercury-based Thimerosal, is a preservative developed in the 
> 1930s by Eli Lilly, which has been routinely used ever since in vaccines 
> as well as many other products. It contains 49.5% ethyl mercury..."
> 
> That number sounds familiar. It's been discussed in MHA before.
> First of all, 49.5% of what? Sound ominous doesn't it, people might 
> think that nearly 50% of a vaccine shot is mercury. Throwing out numbers 
> without any context is a sign of crackpottery, certainly not of science.
> 
> quote: "She explains why the autism epidemic did not occur sooner. "Over 
> the course of the last century, individuals were given single vaccines 
> with single amounts of mercury," Blakely reports, "but with the 
> introduction of triple vaccines the amount of mercury contained within 
> the preservative was multiplied and the cumulative effects are only just 
> now being discovered by the public," she adds."
> 
> Let me apply some logic here. She claims that the mercury has a 
> cumulative effect, but somehow if you give it in individual doses it 
> does not accumulate since single vaccines as used before did not cause 
> autism. Sounds pretty selfcontradictory to me.
> 
> quote: " The constant reference to allergic effects and immune system 
> interference echo Blakemore's own findings that early vaccines seemed to 
> trigger various allergies and intolerances in some children. She 
> determined during the mid to late 1990's, "that it was these medically 
> vulnerable and allergic individuals who were more likely to have reacted 
> to the MMR - which contains no Thiomersal."
> 
> Is she saying here that she finds the same effects in vaccines that 
> contain no thimerosal as she does in the ones that do? My my.
> 
> 
> quote: "Unfortunately, she reports, "because of Red Herring arguments 
> and denial of what is known, we have yet to fully explore in a 
> scientific way, why so many children reacted to vaccines."
> 
> And here we have it, she admits herself there isn't any science she is 
> basing her claims on, since, and I quote: "we have *yet* to fully 
> explore in a scientific way, why..." (emphasis mine).
> That is not stopping her from presenting her hypothesis as fact.
> She also says 'denial of what is known". I'd say we know things from 
> scientific research, but in the same sentence she says that the research 
> has not been done.
> 
> All in all, the article is typical baseless fearmongering, definately 
> not science.
> 
> And I spelled "Blakemore-Brown" correctly in Pubmed - I got nothing.
> Google scholar gives me one hit, which takes me to info on her book.
> No scientific research whatsoever. Why am I not surprised.

lynndb wrote:

> I would just like to point out in the middle of your 'bitching' at each
> other, that if you had bothered to spell Lisa Blakemore-Brown's name
> correctly in your search engine you may have come up with some
> interesting reading, and find that her research on vaccine damage is
> not something she has just decided off the top of her head !!
> 
> my google search has 68,000 returns


Did you get $0.05 each?

Try Google Scholar under "MORE" and see what you get. I cut and pasted 
her name, and posted the results verbatim.  I redid it:

[BOOK] Reweaving the autistic tapestry: autism, Asperger's syndrome, and 
ADHD
L Blakemore-Brown - 2002 - print.google.com
.... Reweaving the Autistic Tapestry Autism, Asperger Syndrome and ADHD Lisa
Blakemore-Brown Jessica Kingsley Publishers London and Philadelphia 
1111111111! ...
Cited by 2 - Web Search - jkp.com - Library Search

[CITATION] Instuctional Strategies For Secondary School Physical 
Education. Dubuque: Wm. C
JM Harrison, CL Blakemore - 1992 - Brown Publishers
Cited by 2 - Web Search


The first is a book citation, the second is not her.

Back to school to learn about searching....

"lynndb"  wrote in message 
news:1129113712.813136.148450@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

>I would just like to point out in the middle of your 'bitching' at each
> other, that if you had bothered to spell Lisa Blakemore-Brown's name
> correctly in your search engine you may have come up with some
> interesting reading, and find that her research on vaccine damage is
> not something she has just decided off the top of her head !!
>
> my google search has 68,000 returns
>


I used google and came up with:
http://www.bps.org.uk/media-centre/press-releases/releases$/disciplinary-matters$/findings-of-disciplinary-hearing-lisa-blakemore-brown.cfm 
.... so it is not the first time she has gone out of bounds of her training, 
except this time there is more evidence to make it stick.

Oh, and:
http://www.kevinleitch.co.uk/wp/index.php?p=287

And you still have not given verifiable evidence that she has done research 
or has any expertise outside of being a PSYCHOLOGIST... this is not the same 
as a pediatrician, neurologist, toxicologist or a number of other MEDICAL 
professions that can actually properly diagnose whether or not a child has 
been affected by a chemical substance.  Something like these Canadian 
doctors:
http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/168/2/201  (found by using 
www.pubmed.gov ... you should try it for research, it is quite handy.  It is 
an index of thousands of journals from all over the world)

On 12 Oct 2005 00:25:54 -0700, "cathyb" 
wrote:


>> YES, I found where you would find pleasure in watching them.(sic)
>
>What did that '(sic)' refer to? Is this yet another use of English you
>are unfamiliar with?


Oh, Cathy. And I was having many laughs watching Jan use "sic" in a
completely inappropriate way. Do a search for her and "sic" if you
want some laughs. I think that Jan thinks that "sic" is the same as
"sick". She likes to imitate what other people do and this is just one
example of trying to imitate but falling flat on her face.

Aloha,

Rich
 
-------------------------------------------------
-------------------------------------------------

Best defense to logic is ignorance

cathyb wrote:


> Hm. Lollipop's lying again. AFAIK, I'm the only person who came within
> a football pitch of saying that, and my comment was not made with
> reference to parents who do not vaccinate their kids; what I said was:
> 
> "And part of the reason they do that [shy away from having their kids
> vaccinated] is that there are anti-vaccination
> zealots out there who deliberately exaggerate the risks of vaccination,
> 
> who deliberately and blatantly lie about vaccination, about the
> ingredients in vaccination, about the risks of vaccination. Even when
> proven wrong in a public forum, some continue to do so for reasons
> known only to themselves.
> 
> These people have caused needless deaths throughout the world; they
> have blood on their hands, and I could wish I believed in hell for the
> pleasure of watching them burn there."
> 
> Hyperbole, of course, but not directed at parents. Simply at liars.
> 
> Cathy
> 
> <snip Lollicrap>
> 


Well put. I would forego the burning in hell for 4 to 7 in the pokey.

LadyLollipop wrote:

> "cathyb"  wrote in message 
> news:1129092869.539873.180300@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> 
>>LadyLollipop wrote:
>>
>>>"JohnDoe"  wrote in message
>>>news:434bac9b$0$12671$ba620dc5@text.nova.planet.nl...
>>>
>>>>lynndb wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>I am not anti-vac !!, both my children had the MMR jabs. I also
>>>>>understand that a widespread epidemic could potentially be tragic. Im
>>>>>just shocked at how blinkered some people have become, why try to
>>>>>strike someone off when they devote their entire lives to changing
>>>>>others lives for the better, and its all well and good going along 
>>>>>with
>>>>>the research we are given to read, but surely when you actually see
>>>>>children who are damaged by vaccine, each and everyone of us would 
>>>>>want
>>>>>to start asking questions and find out why !!
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I for one did not claim you were anti-vac. I just noted that despite 
>>>>your
>>>>claim that it seems you only get to hear one side, you obviously got
>>>>information from both sides, therefor falsifying that claim. And the
>>>>immensily flawed study claiming a link between vaccines and autism got
>>>>way, way more attention then followup studies which showed why the
>>>>original study was flawed and that found no link at all.
>>>>
>>>>And yes, surely when you actually see children who *seem to be* (!!)
>>>>damaged by vaccines you start to ask questions. And these questions 
>>>>were
>>>>asked, matters were researched and it turns out that as far as autism 
>>>>is
>>>>concerned, there is zero evidence to be found that vaccines cause 
>>>>autism.
>>>>The evidence we have clearly shows that if we actually want to find a
>>>>cause for autism, we should stop wasting valuable time and money into
>>>>looking at vaccines as a cause. Any further waste of sparse resources 
>>>>on
>>>>research in that direction will distract from finding the real cause of
>>>>autism and is therefor damaging to all people suffering from autism.
>>>
>>>There is a group here who are *organized medicine* members, their ONLY 
>>>aim
>>>is to protect *organized medicine*, they also do NOT think people should
>>>have the right to chose. They want all people who chose not to vaccinate
>>>their children to burn in hell and some want to watch!
>>
>>Hm. Lollipop's lying again. AFAIK, I'm the only person who came within
>>a football pitch of saying that, and my comment was not made with
>>reference to parents who do not vaccinate their kids; what I said was:
>>
>>"And part of the reason they do that [shy away from having their kids
>>vaccinated] is that there are anti-vaccination
>>zealots out there who deliberately exaggerate the risks of vaccination,
>>
>>who deliberately and blatantly lie about vaccination, about the
>>ingredients in vaccination, about the risks of vaccination. Even when
>>proven wrong in a public forum, some continue to do so for reasons
>>known only to themselves.
>>
>>
>>These people have caused needless deaths throughout the world; they
>>have blood on their hands, and I could wish I believed in hell for the
>>pleasure of watching them burn there."
>>
>>Hyperbole, of course, but not directed at parents. Simply at liars.
>>
>>Cathy
> 
> 
> We will see WHO is lying.
> 
> Subject: Parents Have The Right To Decide Whether Or Not To Vaccinate
> 
> cathyb"  wrote in message
> 
> news:1118237028.923181.272300@o13g2000cwo.googlegroups.com...
> 
> 
> 
>>LadyLollipop wrote:
>>
>>>"cathyb"  wrote in message
>>>news:1118190431.570827.73570@g49g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> 
> 
>>>>LadyLollipop wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>"cathyb"  wrote in message
>>>>>news:1118158536.382523.76980@g44g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> 
> 
> 
>>>>>>LadyLollipop wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Let's get this straight.
> 
> 
> 
>>>>>>>No one is giving any advice on whether or not to vaccinate.
> 
> 
> 
>>>>>>>Each parent has the right to make their own informed decision.
> 
> 
> 
>>>>>>>If that decision differs from yours, it is not fair to say, they 
>>>>>>>have
>>>>>>>blood on their hands.
> 
> 
> 
>>>>>>>That is totally unfair and unkind.
> 
> 
> 
>>>>>>>There ARE risks. One never knows which child will be at risk.
> 
> 
> 
>>>>>>>There are guidelines, which very few, (if any doctors) inform
>>>>>>>parents.
> 
> 
> 
>>>>>><snip>
> 
> 
> 
>>>>>>LadyLollipop wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>>Let's get this straight.
> 
> 
> 
>>>>>>>No one is giving any advice on whether or not to vaccinate.
> 
> 
> 
>>>>>>>Each parent has the right to make their own informed decision.
> 
> 
> 
>>>>>>>If that decision differs from yours, it is not fair to say, they 
>>>>>>>have
>>>>>>>blood on their hands.
> 
> 
> 
>>>>>>>That is totally unfair and unkind.
> 
> 
> 
>>>>>>>There ARE risks. One never knows which child will be at risk.
> 
> 
> 
>>>>>>>There are guidelines, which very few, (if any doctors) inform
>>>>>>>parents.
> 
> 
> 
>>>>>><snip>
> 
> 
> 
>>>>>Why are you snipping the guidelines?
> 
> 
> 
>>>>>>The people who have blood on their hands are the anti-vaccination
>>>>>>zealots who have lied and exaggerated about the risks of
>>>>>>vaccination,
>>>>>>leading people not to vaccinate their kids.
> 
> 
> 
>>>>>And that would be??????
> 
> 
> 
>>>No answer??


You want an answer? I'll give you one:

Jan Drew.

Rich wrote:

> "cathyb"  wrote in message 
> news:1129101954.792631.97820@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> 
>>
>><snip yet more pointless reposting. If anyone desperately wants to read
>>it (LOL) see La Lollicrap's post>
>>
> 
> It's not pointless to Lollipop, I've concluded. Her delusion that her act of 
> snipping our comments makes them go away actually gets projected onto us and 
> she feels we are making her valuable contributions go away as well by 
> snipping. She cannot understand the concept of snipping for brevity or 
> clarity . . . every act of snipping, hers or ours, is seen as a hostile act, 
> a little skirmish in her little war. Snipping, in fact, has so much MEANING 
> for her, that lately she has taken to repeatedly responding to posts with 
> ONLY what you call "pointless reposting," the emphatic (but unmarked) 
> snipping meant to have conveyed volumes. Her delusions are getting worse. 
> She seems to be slipping down and down lately. Sad that.


Axis I: Ostrich Syndrome

Axis II: Obsessive Compulsive Snipping Disorder

Axis III: Thre Monkeys Disorder.

Rich wrote:

> "Peter Bowditch"  wrote in message 
> news:n3eok19rv6s2hnrt8rrjv53pa5lshmnu8p@4ax.com...
> 
>>"lynndb"  wrote:
>>
>>
>>>I think if you took the time to speak with many parents of children
>>>with learning disabilities, who have spent years fighting the 'system'
>>>we have in place to educate a 'normal' child, you may find that Lisa
>>>has changed things beyond expectation for their children, giving them
>>>hope and the help they need for a happier future.
>>>
>>>Many of her cases have involved children who were happy healthy
>>>children the day before they were vaccinated, then turned into children
>>>who could no longer speak or function as they had previously
>>
>>None of her cases "have involved children who were happy healthy
>>children the day before they were vaccinated, then turned into
>>children who could no longer speak or function as they had
>>previously". She is lying.
>>
>>
>>>... could
>>>this be purely coincidence !!!. Im sure that the vaccine does not
>>>affect each and everyone of us that decides to have it, but children
>>>that are suseptable to a reaction can be affected, why should we put
>>>our childrens lives at risk in this way ?, all that is being asked is
>>>that fair research is done, and that it is accepted that it can be
>>>damaging. It should be every parents right to know the truth and have
>>>the choice to make a balanced decision as to what we subject our
>>>children to.
>>
>>The research has been done. There is no link between vaccination and
>>autism. Only liars and the deluded continue to believe that there is.
> 
> 
> Liars, the deluded, and the greedy who still hope to sue the deep-pocket 
> pharmaceutical companies. Some parents just can't let go until they find a 
> place to hang the "blame"!


Let's distinguish those two groups, i.e. the liars and the parents who 
are in denial and need someone to blame. The latter group is a victim of 
the first. I have written on this before.

HCN wrote:

> "Mark Probert"  wrote in message 
> news:bTP2f.2605$Hm3.1735@fe09.lga...
> 
>>HCN wrote:
> 
> ...>> Do you have any papers written by this person?
> 
>>Google Scholar:
>>
>>Your search - Lisa Blackmore-Brown - did not match any articles.
>>
>>Your search - Blackmore-Brown - did not match any articles.
>>
>>PublicMed:
>>
>>The following term was not found and ignored: Blackmore-Brown.
>>
>>http://www.highbeam.com/ref/ref_search.asp?M=Y&more=1
>>
>>No results found for Blackmore-Brown..
>>
> 
> 
> (I kind of assumed that would be the results.  I guessed that the "research" 
> touted was a bunch of hot air.... much like many use Buttar's testimony to a 
> bunch of gullible polititians as "proof" his cream works).


When I see an altie claiming research, my suspicions are automatically 
raised. In the years I have checked out these "research" claims, I have 
found that they fit into several categories:

1) There was no research in the true sense of the term.

2) There was research, but the writer is misstating the results. 
Sometimes the misstatment is clearly intentional, other times it is not.

3) The claim is a pure fabrication.

4) Someone is mistaking opinions for research.



>>Do you have any journal
>>
>>>references on this "research" you speak of (forget Wakefield or anything 
>>>written in "Medical Hypothesis"... the former because his "research was 
>>>bought and paid for by lawyers, and the latter requires you to look up 
>>>the definition of the word "hypothesis"). 
> 
> 
> 

Mark Probert  wrote:


>Rich wrote:
>> "Peter Bowditch"  wrote in message 
>> news:n3eok19rv6s2hnrt8rrjv53pa5lshmnu8p@4ax.com...
>> 
>>>"lynndb"  wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>I think if you took the time to speak with many parents of children
>>>>with learning disabilities, who have spent years fighting the 'system'
>>>>we have in place to educate a 'normal' child, you may find that Lisa
>>>>has changed things beyond expectation for their children, giving them
>>>>hope and the help they need for a happier future.
>>>>
>>>>Many of her cases have involved children who were happy healthy
>>>>children the day before they were vaccinated, then turned into children
>>>>who could no longer speak or function as they had previously
>>>
>>>None of her cases "have involved children who were happy healthy
>>>children the day before they were vaccinated, then turned into
>>>children who could no longer speak or function as they had
>>>previously". She is lying.
>>>
>>>
>>>>... could
>>>>this be purely coincidence !!!. Im sure that the vaccine does not
>>>>affect each and everyone of us that decides to have it, but children
>>>>that are suseptable to a reaction can be affected, why should we put
>>>>our childrens lives at risk in this way ?, all that is being asked is
>>>>that fair research is done, and that it is accepted that it can be
>>>>damaging. It should be every parents right to know the truth and have
>>>>the choice to make a balanced decision as to what we subject our
>>>>children to.
>>>
>>>The research has been done. There is no link between vaccination and
>>>autism. Only liars and the deluded continue to believe that there is.
>> 
>> 
>> Liars, the deluded, and the greedy who still hope to sue the deep-pocket 
>> pharmaceutical companies. Some parents just can't let go until they find a 
>> place to hang the "blame"!
>
>Let's distinguish those two groups, i.e. the liars and the parents who 
>are in denial and need someone to blame. The latter group is a victim of 
>the first. I have written on this before.


I've always tried to make the point that blame (and that special place
in Hell) belongs with the deliberate liars, not the people that they
deceive who know no better. When I used the word "deluded" I was not
suggesting a mental disorder - I was referring to people acting under
the influence of false or misunderstood information.

I feel the same way about multi-level marketing. The criminals are the
people who promote impossible dreams, not the victims who believe the
lies. Note that one of the charges made in the current court case
against me is that I referred to the victims of MLM as "victims".
-- 
Peter Bowditch aa #2243
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au
Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

NO ONE has to determine if child has  been affected by a chemical substance.

EVEN a parent can tell What happened to their child, when THEY START LOSING 
THEIR SPEECH

Soon AFTER they get their vaccination!!!!!

KISS




"HCN"  wrote in message 
news:zoqdneR0huh9h9DeRVn-pA@comcast.com...

>
> "lynndb"  wrote in message 
> news:1129113712.813136.148450@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>I would just like to point out in the middle of your 'bitching' at each
>> other, that if you had bothered to spell Lisa Blakemore-Brown's name
>> correctly in your search engine you may have come up with some
>> interesting reading, and find that her research on vaccine damage is
>> not something she has just decided off the top of her head !!
>>
>> my google search has 68,000 returns
>>
>
> I used google and came up with:
> http://www.bps.org.uk/media-centre/press-releases/releases$/disciplinary-matters$/findings-of-disciplinary-hearing-lisa-blakemore-brown.cfm 
> ... so it is not the first time she has gone out of bounds of her 
> training, except this time there is more evidence to make it stick.
>
> Oh, and:
> http://www.kevinleitch.co.uk/wp/index.php?p=287
>
> And you still have not given verifiable evidence that she has done 
> research or has any expertise outside of being a PSYCHOLOGIST... this is 
> not the same as a pediatrician, neurologist, toxicologist or a number of 
> other MEDICAL professions that can actually properly diagnose whether or 
> not a child has been affected by a chemical substance.  Something like 
> these Canadian doctors:
> http://www.cmaj.ca/cgi/content/full/168/2/201  (found by using 
> www.pubmed.gov ... you should try it for research, it is quite handy.  It 
> is an index of thousands of journals from all over the world)
> 

"lynndb"  wrote in message 
news:1129113987.048234.172730@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...

> maybe this would be of interest ... looks like scientific research to
> me !
>
> http://www.independent-media.tv/item.cfm?fmedia_id=10472&fcategory_desc=Under%20Reported
>

THEY WILL DENY IT!!

IT DOES NOT FIT INTO THEIR BELIEF SYSTEM!!

<GASP> IT MIGHT PROVE *ORGANIZED MEDICINE* TO BE WRONG!

THEY COULD CARE LESS ABOUT KIDS!!!!!!!

"Mark Probert"  wrote in message 
news:GLf3f.21744$Ge5.5454@fe10.lga...

> HCN wrote:
>> "Mark Probert"  wrote in message 
>> news:bTP2f.2605$Hm3.1735@fe09.lga...
>>
>>>HCN wrote:
>>
>> ...>> Do you have any papers written by this person?
>>
>>>Google Scholar:
>>>
>>>Your search - Lisa Blackmore-Brown - did not match any articles.
>>>
>>>Your search - Blackmore-Brown - did not match any articles.
>>>
>>>PublicMed:
>>>
>>>The following term was not found and ignored: Blackmore-Brown.
>>>
>>>http://www.highbeam.com/ref/ref_search.asp?M=Y&more=1
>>>
>>>No results found for Blackmore-Brown..
>>>
>>
>>
>> (I kind of assumed that would be the results.  I guessed that the 
>> "research" touted was a bunch of hot air.... much like many use Buttar's 
>> testimony to a bunch of gullible polititians as "proof" his cream works).
>
> When I see an altie claiming research, my suspicions are automatically 
> raised. In the years I have checked out these "research" claims, I have 
> found that they fit into several categories:
>
> 1) There was no research in the true sense of the term.
>
> 2) There was research, but the writer is misstating the results. Sometimes 
> the misstatment is clearly intentional, other times it is not.
>
> 3) The claim is a pure fabrication.
>
> 4) Someone is mistaking opinions for research.


I think we got confirmation that it is #4 ... seeing her post an article 
from an unbiased author touting someone's OPINION as "research"... despite 
being pointed out several times to places where actual research can be found 
(scholar.google.com and www.pubmed.gov)




>
>
>>>Do you have any journal
>>>
>>>>references on this "research" you speak of (forget Wakefield or anything 
>>>>written in "Medical Hypothesis"... the former because his "research was 
>>>>bought and paid for by lawyers, and the latter requires you to look up 
>>>>the definition of the word "hypothesis").
>>
>> 

Mark Probert  wrote:


>HCN wrote:
>> "Mark Probert"  wrote in message 
>> news:bTP2f.2605$Hm3.1735@fe09.lga...
>> 
>>>HCN wrote:
>> 
>> ...>> Do you have any papers written by this person?
>> 
>>>Google Scholar:
>>>
>>>Your search - Lisa Blackmore-Brown - did not match any articles.
>>>
>>>Your search - Blackmore-Brown - did not match any articles.
>>>
>>>PublicMed:
>>>
>>>The following term was not found and ignored: Blackmore-Brown.
>>>
>>>http://www.highbeam.com/ref/ref_search.asp?M=Y&more=1
>>>
>>>No results found for Blackmore-Brown..
>>>
>> 
>> 
>> (I kind of assumed that would be the results.  I guessed that the "research" 
>> touted was a bunch of hot air.... much like many use Buttar's testimony to a 
>> bunch of gullible polititians as "proof" his cream works).
>
>When I see an altie claiming research, my suspicions are automatically 
>raised. In the years I have checked out these "research" claims, I have 
>found that they fit into several categories:
>
>1) There was no research in the true sense of the term.
>
>2) There was research, but the writer is misstating the results. 
>Sometimes the misstatment is clearly intentional, other times it is not.
>
>3) The claim is a pure fabrication.
>
>4) Someone is mistaking opinions for research.


Here's something I wrote a while back:

Alternative medicine "research" (30/4/2005

Every so often someone points me towards some publication supporting
some form of medical quackery and makes a lot of noise about how well
referenced the article or paper is. One of the things which almost
always amazes me when this happens is how the author of the paper
seems to think that nobody will ever check that the cited publications
even exist, let alone that the referenced articles actually support
the position of the writer. Almost universally, the citations fall
into one or more of the following categories:

Ancient works, sometimes more than a century old, which predate much
of modern medicine

Preliminary findings which have subsequently been shown to be either
erroneous or dead ends

Research which refutes what the citer claims it supports

Publication so far in the past that family doctors or general
practitioners are unlikely to have access to the relevant journal
issues to check the relevance of the work

Letters to the editors of journals, rather than peer-reviewed articles
Papers in non-peer-reviewed journals edited by proponents of doubtful
treatments

Newspaper articles

Papers in foreign language publications which may not have an English
edition

Outright fabrications, where sometimes the journal does not even exist

The use of non-standard abbreviations for journal names, making it
difficult to search library catalogues

Research which is irrelevant to, or barely tangential upon, the matter
under discussion.
-- 
Peter Bowditch aa #2243
The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au
Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au
To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com

"Peter Bowditch"  wrote in message 
news:2dfrk1dleu0flhg53b7sud57s469op3grm@4ax.com...

> Mark Probert  wrote:
>

....>>1) There was no research in the true sense of the term.

>>
>>2) There was research, but the writer is misstating the results.
>>Sometimes the misstatment is clearly intentional, other times it is not.
>>
>>3) The claim is a pure fabrication.
>>
>>4) Someone is mistaking opinions for research.
>
> Here's something I wrote a while back:
>
> Alternative medicine "research" (30/4/2005
>
> Every so often someone points me towards some publication supporting
> some form of medical quackery and makes a lot of noise about how well
> referenced the article or paper is. One of the things which almost
> always amazes me when this happens is how the author of the paper
> seems to think that nobody will ever check that the cited publications
> even exist, let alone that the referenced articles actually support
> the position of the writer. Almost universally, the citations fall
> into one or more of the following categories:
>
> Ancient works, sometimes more than a century old, which predate much
> of modern medicine
>
> Preliminary findings which have subsequently been shown to be either
> erroneous or dead ends
>
> Research which refutes what the citer claims it supports
>
> Publication so far in the past that family doctors or general
> practitioners are unlikely to have access to the relevant journal
> issues to check the relevance of the work
>
> Letters to the editors of journals, rather than peer-reviewed articles
> Papers in non-peer-reviewed journals edited by proponents of doubtful
> treatments
>
> Newspaper articles
>
> Papers in foreign language publications which may not have an English
> edition
>
> Outright fabrications, where sometimes the journal does not even exist
>
> The use of non-standard abbreviations for journal names, making it
> difficult to search library catalogues
>
> Research which is irrelevant to, or barely tangential upon, the matter
> under discussion.


The deceptions are also noted in this essay, which one of the other things 
they do is misrepresent what was actually in the paper in the first place 
assuming no one would actually go to the trouble of reading the actual 
reference:
http://www.pathguy.com/antiimmu.htm





> -- 
> Peter Bowditch aa #2243
> The Millenium Project http://www.ratbags.com/rsoles
> Australian Council Against Health Fraud http://www.acahf.org.au
> Australian Skeptics http://www.skeptics.com.au
> To email me use my first name only at ratbags.com 

"Mark Probert"  wrote in message 
news:Psf3f.21737$Ge5.16893@fe10.lga...

> Rich wrote:
>> "cathyb"  wrote in message 
>> news:1129101954.792631.97820@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
>>
>>>
>>><snip yet more pointless reposting. If anyone desperately wants to read
>>>it (LOL) see La Lollicrap's post>
>>>
>>
>> It's not pointless to Lollipop, I've concluded. Her delusion that her act 
>> of snipping our comments makes them go away actually gets projected onto 
>> us and she feels we are making her valuable contributions go away as well 
>> by snipping. She cannot understand the concept of snipping for brevity or 
>> clarity . . . every act of snipping, hers or ours, is seen as a hostile 
>> act, a little skirmish in her little war. Snipping, in fact, has so much 
>> MEANING for her, that lately she has taken to repeatedly responding to 
>> posts with ONLY what you call "pointless reposting," the emphatic (but 
>> unmarked) snipping meant to have conveyed volumes. Her delusions are 
>> getting worse. She seems to be slipping down and down lately. Sad that.
>
> Axis I: Ostrich Syndrome
>
> Axis II: Obsessive Compulsive Snipping Disorder
>
> Axis III: Thre Monkeys Disorder.
>


LOL!   ;o)  Rich

"lynndb"  wrote in message 
news:1128954010.588052.312910@z14g2000cwz.googlegroups.com...

>
>
> I am shocked at peoples response with obvious lack of knowledge, do you
> think that someone with so many years of profesional and first hand
> experience would 'bandy' false off the top of your head type scare
> mongering?

Yes.
> .......... I don't think so. These conclusions have been
> drawn from years and years of research, hard work and having the
> passion and drive to change something that could potentially 'touch' us
> all.


Wrong. Drawn from years and years of not understanding how science and 
medicine work.

Jeff


> Lynn
> 

LadyLollipop wrote:

> "lynndb"  wrote in message 
> news:1129113987.048234.172730@g14g2000cwa.googlegroups.com...
> 
>>maybe this would be of interest ... looks like scientific research to
>>me !
>>
>>http://www.independent-media.tv/item.cfm?fmedia_id=10472&fcategory_desc=Under%20Reported
>>
> 
> THEY WILL DENY IT!!


Yes, we denied that it is scientific research. Strangely, the reason why 
we denied that, is because it is not scientific research. Imagine that.


> IT DOES NOT FIT INTO THEIR BELIEF SYSTEM!!


No, it does not fit into the definition of scientific research.


> <GASP> IT MIGHT PROVE *ORGANIZED MEDICINE* TO BE WRONG!


Speaking of definitions, can you defnie *ORGANIZED MEDICINE*??? I hope 
that this does not cause a brain aneurysm.


> THEY COULD CARE LESS ABOUT KIDS!!!!!!! 


WRONG, thimerosal breath. It is because we care so deeply about children 
that we advocate for facts, not unsupported opinions.




>