I shall be taking my old PC to the Netherlands, to use in the MIL's 
house when we're there on holiday. It's got a standard UK PSU with earth 
connection. Trouble is, sockets in NL don't have earth connections, 
except in places like the kitchen and garage. I'll be using the PC in an 
upstairs bedroom.

I don't want to rewire the room, so do I (a) just plug it in as it is 
(different plug, of course) and have no earth connection, or (b) go to 
the local components shop and fit a local PSU?

I asked this question in a PC ng and got replies like "Does 'earth' mean 
'ground'?" and 'Fit an adapter' and such, falling into the chocolate 
teapot range of usefulness. Not a single answer relating to the question 
though.

Here's hoping for some sense here!
-- 
Peter

Ying tong iddle-i po!

On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 16:39:48 GMT,it is alleged that Peter Twydell
 spake thusly in uk.d-i-y:


>I shall be taking my old PC to the Netherlands, to use in the MIL's 
>house when we're there on holiday. It's got a standard UK PSU with earth 
>connection. Trouble is, sockets in NL don't have earth connections, 
>except in places like the kitchen and garage. I'll be using the PC in an 
>upstairs bedroom.
>
>I don't want to rewire the room, so do I (a) just plug it in as it is 
>(different plug, of course) and have no earth connection, or (b) go to 
>the local components shop and fit a local PSU?
>
>I asked this question in a PC ng and got replies like "Does 'earth' mean 
>'ground'?" and 'Fit an adapter' and such, falling into the chocolate 
>teapot range of usefulness. Not a single answer relating to the question 
>though.
>
>Here's hoping for some sense here!



PCs MUST be earthed, a 'local' psu is likely to be identical to the
"UK' model (if it's CE marked, it's legal to use anywhere in europe).

Even in the great (previously) Unearthed States of America, PCs have
three prong plugs, (causing much consternation when confronted with
old 2 prong outlets, but that's OT).

The fact of the matter is they WILL work with no earth but will become
hazardous to your health and sanity. Not only do they become unstable,
but the filters will cause leakage to the unearthed case. This tends
to float the case at around 100-125 volts to ground(earth) causing you
to go 'hmm what's this vibration feeling here...owwww'.

Guess what happened to me a few months ago (broken earth pin on the
inlet socket).

A temporary expedient would be to do the 'adapter' thing, with a
flying lead for the earth and clamp it to the earthed pipework
somewhere. 

All modern outlets in .nl should be earthed. I would seriously suggest
that 'rewiring the bedroom' might actually be a very healthy idea.

-- 
We are just an advanced breed of monkeys on a minor planet of a very
average star. But we can understand the Universe. That makes us something
very special.
                         - Stephen Hawking

On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 16:39:48 GMT, Peter Twydell
 wrote:


>I shall be taking my old PC to the Netherlands, to use in the MIL's 
>house when we're there on holiday. It's got a standard UK PSU with earth 
>connection. Trouble is, sockets in NL don't have earth connections, 
>except in places like the kitchen and garage. I'll be using the PC in an 
>upstairs bedroom.
>
>I don't want to rewire the room, so do I (a) just plug it in as it is 
>(different plug, of course) and have no earth connection, or (b) go to 
>the local components shop and fit a local PSU?
>
>I asked this question in a PC ng and got replies like "Does 'earth' mean 
>'ground'?" and 'Fit an adapter' and such, falling into the chocolate 
>teapot range of usefulness. Not a single answer relating to the question 
>though.
>

It would certainly help to use some form of RCD adaptor, just to give
you a bit of protection.
Perhaps fit an RCD plug to the PC, then make an adaptor consisting of
a trailing 13A socket connected to a NL-type (Schuko?) plug.

-- 
Frank Erskine
Sunderland

It happens that Chip formulated :

> On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 16:39:48 GMT,it is alleged that Peter Twydell
>  spake thusly in uk.d-i-y:
>
>> I shall be taking my old PC to the Netherlands, to use in the MIL's 
>> house when we're there on holiday. It's got a standard UK PSU with earth 
>> connection. Trouble is, sockets in NL don't have earth connections, 
>> except in places like the kitchen and garage. I'll be using the PC in an 
>> upstairs bedroom.
>> 
>> I don't want to rewire the room, so do I (a) just plug it in as it is 
>> (different plug, of course) and have no earth connection, or (b) go to 
>> the local components shop and fit a local PSU?
>> 
>> I asked this question in a PC ng and got replies like "Does 'earth' mean 
>> 'ground'?" and 'Fit an adapter' and such, falling into the chocolate 
>> teapot range of usefulness. Not a single answer relating to the question 
>> though.
>> 
>> Here's hoping for some sense here!
>
>
> PCs MUST be earthed, a 'local' psu is likely to be identical to the
> "UK' model (if it's CE marked, it's legal to use anywhere in europe).
>
> Even in the great (previously) Unearthed States of America, PCs have
> three prong plugs, (causing much consternation when confronted with
> old 2 prong outlets, but that's OT).
>
> The fact of the matter is they WILL work with no earth but will become
> hazardous to your health and sanity. Not only do they become unstable,
> but the filters will cause leakage to the unearthed case. This tends
> to float the case at around 100-125 volts to ground(earth) causing you
> to go 'hmm what's this vibration feeling here...owwww'.
>
> Guess what happened to me a few months ago (broken earth pin on the
> inlet socket).
>
> A temporary expedient would be to do the 'adapter' thing, with a
> flying lead for the earth and clamp it to the earthed pipework
> somewhere. 
>
> All modern outlets in .nl should be earthed. I would seriously suggest
> that 'rewiring the bedroom' might actually be a very healthy idea.


I concur with the above.

The lack of an earth can cause instability due to the lack of filtering 
and it can cause the PC to generate more radio interference. The 
'tingle' you feel might also be quite substantial were you to also be 
in contact with earthed metalwork at the time.

-- 

Regards,
        Harry (M1BYT) (L)
http://www.ukradioamateur.org

In article ,
	Peter Twydell  writes:

>I shall be taking my old PC to the Netherlands, to use in the MIL's 
>house when we're there on holiday. It's got a standard UK PSU with earth 
>connection. Trouble is, sockets in NL don't have earth connections, 
>except in places like the kitchen and garage. I'll be using the PC in an 
>upstairs bedroom.


Holland often doesn't provide earthed outlets in earth-free
areas of the home. You can't get an electric shock from the
PC because there is no earthed metalwork nearby for the
current to pass through you. Contrary to what you might
imagine from some of the responses, the dutch are not rapidly
dying of electrocution as a result. This is a scheme which
is recognised in our wiring regs, but not permitted in the UK
except in special circumstances which I can't remember (and
I don't have the regs on me to look it up).


>I don't want to rewire the room, so do I (a) just plug it in as it is 
>(different plug, of course) and have no earth connection, or (b) go to 
>the local components shop and fit a local PSU?


You'll find dutch PC's have exactly the same PSU's as UK PC's.
You just plug it in. There shouldn't be any earthed metalwork
in the room, but you might like to just cast your eye around
and keep the PC away from any that you notice.


>I asked this question in a PC ng and got replies like "Does 'earth' mean 
>'ground'?" and 'Fit an adapter' and such, falling into the chocolate 
>teapot range of usefulness. Not a single answer relating to the question 
>though.


Well, this is really an international wiring query rather than
anything specifically relating to PC's.

-- 
Andrew Gabriel

"Harry Bloomfield"  verbally sodomised 
in news:mn.8c5d7d5974a60d73.8412@tiscali.co.uk: 


> It happens that Chip formulated :
>> On Sat, 17 Sep 2005 16:39:48 GMT,it is alleged that Peter Twydell
>>  spake thusly in uk.d-i-y:
>>
>>> I shall be taking my old PC to the Netherlands, to use in the MIL's 
>>> house when we're there on holiday. It's got a standard UK PSU with
>>> earth connection. Trouble is, sockets in NL don't have earth
>>> connections, except in places like the kitchen and garage. I'll be
>>> using the PC in an upstairs bedroom.
>>> 
>>> I don't want to rewire the room, so do I (a) just plug it in as it is 
>>> (different plug, of course) and have no earth connection, or (b) go to
>>> the local components shop and fit a local PSU?
>>> 
>>> I asked this question in a PC ng and got replies like "Does 'earth'
>>> mean 'ground'?" and 'Fit an adapter' and such, falling into the
>>> chocolate teapot range of usefulness. Not a single answer relating to
>>> the question though.
>>> 
>>> Here's hoping for some sense here!
>>
>>
>> PCs MUST be earthed, a 'local' psu is likely to be identical to the
>> "UK' model (if it's CE marked, it's legal to use anywhere in europe).
>>
>> Even in the great (previously) Unearthed States of America, PCs have
>> three prong plugs, (causing much consternation when confronted with
>> old 2 prong outlets, but that's OT).
>>
>> The fact of the matter is they WILL work with no earth but will become
>> hazardous to your health and sanity. Not only do they become unstable,
>> but the filters will cause leakage to the unearthed case. This tends
>> to float the case at around 100-125 volts to ground(earth) causing you
>> to go 'hmm what's this vibration feeling here...owwww'.
>>
>> Guess what happened to me a few months ago (broken earth pin on the
>> inlet socket).
>>
>> A temporary expedient would be to do the 'adapter' thing, with a
>> flying lead for the earth and clamp it to the earthed pipework
>> somewhere. 
>>
>> All modern outlets in .nl should be earthed. I would seriously suggest
>> that 'rewiring the bedroom' might actually be a very healthy idea.
> 
> I concur with the above.
> 

I conquer with a conker.


> The lack of an earth can cause instability 


No shit!

 



-- 
Phil Kyle  
Uno
Dos
Tres
Cuatro
CINCO!!!!!!

"Be very aware that my willingness 
to continue to criticise your sig 
is infinite." -- Neil Barker

On 17 Sep 2005 18:15:24 GMT, andrew@cucumber.demon.co.uk (Andrew
Gabriel) scrawled:


>Holland often doesn't provide earthed outlets in earth-free
>areas of the home. You can't get an electric shock from the
>PC because there is no earthed metalwork nearby for the
>current to pass through you. 


Er........ Tell you what, just to prove that theory do me a favour, go
and stick your fingers on a live phase cable in the back of a socket,
but don't touch anything metallic. Does it hurt, are you dead?


>Contrary to what you might
>imagine from some of the responses, the dutch are not rapidly
>dying of electrocution as a result. 


More through luck I think.


>This is a scheme which
>is recognised in our wiring regs, but not permitted in the UK
>except in special circumstances which I can't remember (and
>I don't have the regs on me to look it up).
>

Recognised as what, bad practice?
-- 
Stuart @ SJW Electrical

Please Reply to group

Lurch wrote:

> On 17 Sep 2005 18:15:24 GMT, andrew@cucumber.demon.co.uk (Andrew
> Gabriel) scrawled:
> 
> 
>>Holland often doesn't provide earthed outlets in earth-free
>>areas of the home. You can't get an electric shock from the
>>PC because there is no earthed metalwork nearby for the
>>current to pass through you. 
> 
> 
> Er........ Tell you what, just to prove that theory do me a favour, go
> and stick your fingers on a live phase cable in the back of a socket,
> but don't touch anything metallic. Does it hurt, are you dead?


If you're not a valid path to earth, it won't hurt a bit. Same reason
birds don't die when they land on the bare wires. An electric shock is
caused by your body being an easier path than the wires the electricity
would normally pass though. A body in isolation provides no such path.

(Same reason an isolating transformer works).

H

On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 17:44:29 +0100, Hamie 
scrawled:


>>>Holland often doesn't provide earthed outlets in earth-free
>>>areas of the home. You can't get an electric shock from the
>>>PC because there is no earthed metalwork nearby for the
>>>current to pass through you. 
>> 
>> 
>> Er........ Tell you what, just to prove that theory do me a favour, go
>> and stick your fingers on a live phase cable in the back of a socket,
>> but don't touch anything metallic. Does it hurt, are you dead?
>
>If you're not a valid path to earth, it won't hurt a bit. Same reason
>birds don't die when they land on the bare wires. An electric shock is
>caused by your body being an easier path than the wires the electricity
>would normally pass though. A body in isolation provides no such path.
>

Well, wrong again. The reason birds don't die after landing on power
lines is that they are not touching the erth, therefore not forming a
path to earth, which is correct. What isn't vorrect is the fact that
you will not get a shock by not touching metal. You provide a path to
earth by being stood on earth, or on a floor in a house, or in loads
of places really.


>(Same reason an isolating transformer works).


If you're saying that every single outlet in a NL home is provided by
power from its own individual isolating transformer then theoretically
this works as you say above. It doesn't work if there is more than one
fault on seperate circuits as it's not the earth potential, it's the
relative potential across 2 fault paths that does the electrocuting.
It's just that because of the way we have UK earths set up it's
generally the earth that has the highest differential potential from
the live conductors.

Still misleading and potentially dangerous information no matter what
variation of made up we go on.
-- 
Stuart @ SJW Electrical

Please Reply to group

In an earlier contribution to this discussion,
Lurch   wrote:


>>
> Well, wrong again. The reason birds don't die after landing on power
> lines is that they are not touching the erth, therefore not forming a
> path to earth, which is correct. What isn't correct is the fact that
> you will not get a shock by not touching metal. You provide a path to
> earth by being stood on earth, or on a floor in a house, or in loads
> of places really.
>


So the OP will be ok as long as he can levitate? <g>
-- 
Cheers,
Set Square
______
Please reply to newsgroup. Reply address is invalid.

In article ,
	Lurch  writes:

> On 17 Sep 2005 18:15:24 GMT, andrew@cucumber.demon.co.uk (Andrew
> Gabriel) scrawled:
> 
>>Holland often doesn't provide earthed outlets in earth-free
>>areas of the home. You can't get an electric shock from the
>>PC because there is no earthed metalwork nearby for the
>>current to pass through you. 
> 
> Er........ Tell you what, just to prove that theory do me a favour, go
> and stick your fingers on a live phase cable in the back of a socket,
> but don't touch anything metallic. Does it hurt, are you dead?

No.

>>Contrary to what you might
>>imagine from some of the responses, the dutch are not rapidly
>>dying of electrocution as a result. 
> 
> More through luck I think.
> 
>>This is a scheme which
>>is recognised in our wiring regs, but not permitted in the UK
>>except in special circumstances which I can't remember (and
>>I don't have the regs on me to look it up).
>
> Recognised as what, bad practice?


413-04 "Protection by non-conducting location".
It's not permitted in the UK except in special situations,
but some other countries do use it. I don't know what the
dutch regs say, but the IEE regs forbid the use of earthed
socket outlets in such locations.

-- 
Andrew Gabriel

In article , Lurch
<URL:mailto:usenet@sjwelectrical.co.uk> wrote:


> Er........ Tell you what, just to prove that theory do me a favour, go
> and stick your fingers on a live phase cable in the back of a socket,
> but don't touch anything metallic. Does it hurt, are you dead?



No, for the same reason that birds can sit on a live cable without harm. As
you are aware, it the mils that kills. No earth, no flow, no danger.

-- 
AJL

On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 13:28:29 +0100, "Andy Luckman (AJL Electronics)"
 wrote:


>In article , Lurch
><URL:mailto:usenet@sjwelectrical.co.uk> wrote:
>
>> Er........ Tell you what, just to prove that theory do me a favour, go
>> and stick your fingers on a live phase cable in the back of a socket,
>> but don't touch anything metallic. Does it hurt, are you dead?
>
>
>No, for the same reason that birds can sit on a live cable without harm. As
>you are aware, it the mils that kills. No earth, no flow, no danger.


Just btw, it doesn't need many mils to kill and earth paths have a funny habit
of being where you don't expect them to be.

In message , Peter Twydell 
 writes

>I shall be taking my old PC to the Netherlands, to use in the MIL's 
>house when we're there on holiday. It's got a standard UK PSU with 
>earth connection. Trouble is, sockets in NL don't have earth 
>connections, except in places like the kitchen and garage. I'll be 
>using the PC in an upstairs bedroom.
>
>I don't want to rewire the room, so do I (a) just plug it in as it is 
>(different plug, of course) and have no earth connection, or (b) go to 
>the local components shop and fit a local PSU?
>
>I asked this question in a PC ng and got replies like "Does 'earth' 
>mean 'ground'?" and 'Fit an adapter' and such, falling into the 
>chocolate teapot range of usefulness. Not a single answer relating to 
>the question though.
>
>Here's hoping for some sense here!



Thanks for all the suggestions.

I think what I'll do is replace the existing socket with an earthed one 
and run an earth wire. This might be clamped to the iron radiator in the 
room or possibly go to the earthed socket by the CH boiler the other 
side of the wall. The wall is probably soft anyway, so making a small 
hole won't be a problem.
When I mentioned rewiring the room, I was thinking in terms of running a 
wire through the conduit, which might be tricky as I've no idea of the 
route. It will be possible to use narrow trunking on the surface, 
though.
-- 
Peter

Ying tong iddle-i po!

On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 13:28:29 +0100, "Andy Luckman (AJL Electronics)"
 scrawled:


>> Er........ Tell you what, just to prove that theory do me a favour, go
>> and stick your fingers on a live phase cable in the back of a socket,
>> but don't touch anything metallic. Does it hurt, are you dead?
>
>
>No, for the same reason that birds can sit on a live cable without harm. As
>you are aware, it the mils that kills. No earth, no flow, no danger.


And you've just done that have you, stuck your finger on a live cable
in the back of a socket?
-- 
Stuart @ SJW Electrical

Please Reply to group

On 21 Sep,  
     Lurch  wrote:


> On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 13:28:29 +0100, "Andy Luckman (AJL Electronics)"
>  scrawled:
> 
> >> Er........ Tell you what, just to prove that theory do me a favour, go
> >> and stick your fingers on a live phase cable in the back of a socket,
> >> but don't touch anything metallic. Does it hurt, are you dead?
> >
> >
> > No, for the same reason that birds can sit on a live cable without harm.
> > As you are aware, it the mils that kills. No earth, no flow, no danger.
> 
> And you've just done that have you, stuck your finger on a live cable in
> the back of a socket?


I recently started disconnecting part of an unused circuit to old external
lighting. After I had removed parts, and touched the live conductor, I
realised I'd reset the MCB feeding the circuit. I never felt a thing when I
touched the live conductor. I was wearing rubber soled shoes, and was up a
stepladder with plastic feet. I'm glad I hadn't touched the adjacent garage
door (which I had never got round to earthing with edn 15 regs). Up the
ladder was (at the time) an earth free environment. I'm not going to try it
again though.

-- 
  B Thumbs
  Change lycos to yahoo to reply

In article <4DAE1672BC%brian13434@lycos.co.uk>,
	 writes:

>> 
>> And you've just done that have you, stuck your finger on a live cable in
>> the back of a socket?


I've done it with a lightswitch, accidentally. 
Felt only very slight tingling -- probably only a milliamp
flowing as it was barely on the edge of being perceptable.

I've done it deliberately when changing a CU with live tails
(not something I would ever suggest anyone try, but along the
lines of "do as I say, and not as I do", something I've done
a few times). When I believe I have got myself well isolated,
I check it by brushing the _back_ of my hand against a live
conductor to make sure there's no current path through me.
The danger in handling live tails is not so much directly
from electrocution as it is from flash burns if you should
happen to accidentally short out the meter tails. The
resulting arc could generate the best part of a megawatt of
heat a few inches in front of your face, with the resultant
molten and vapourised metals blasted outwards from it too.
Such a short circuit could be triggered by a reflex reaction 
to an electric shock, so being pre-prepared not to get an
electric shock is just as important as well protecting
yourself from possible flash burns (exposed skin covered,
at least eye and preferably full face protection).

-- 
Andrew Gabriel

On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 23:57:58 +0100,  scrawled:


>On 21 Sep,  
>     Lurch  wrote:
>
>> On Wed, 21 Sep 2005 13:28:29 +0100, "Andy Luckman (AJL Electronics)"
>>  scrawled:
>> 
>> >> Er........ Tell you what, just to prove that theory do me a favour, go
>> >> and stick your fingers on a live phase cable in the back of a socket,
>> >> but don't touch anything metallic. Does it hurt, are you dead?
>> >
>> >
>> > No, for the same reason that birds can sit on a live cable without harm.
>> > As you are aware, it the mils that kills. No earth, no flow, no danger.
>> 
>> And you've just done that have you, stuck your finger on a live cable in
>> the back of a socket?
>
>I recently started disconnecting part of an unused circuit to old external
>lighting. After I had removed parts, and touched the live conductor, I
>realised I'd reset the MCB feeding the circuit. I never felt a thing when I
>touched the live conductor. I was wearing rubber soled shoes, and was up a
>stepladder with plastic feet. I'm glad I hadn't touched the adjacent garage
>door (which I had never got round to earthing with edn 15 regs). Up the
>ladder was (at the time) an earth free environment. I'm not going to try it
>again though.


But the point I'm trying to make is that you can't just go round
touching phase conductors willy nilly and not get shocks only whilst
touching an earthed object.

I've lost interest now anyway.
-- 
Stuart @ SJW Electrical

Please Reply to group

Andrew Gabriel wrote:

> The danger in handling live tails is not so much directly
> from electrocution as it is from flash burns if you should
> happen to accidentally short out the meter tails. ...


The man who changed my eletcricity meter took great care to bend the 
live tail well out of the way.

I don't know why he didn't just pull the service fuse though, I do.


> (exposed skin covered,
> at least eye and preferably full face protection).


None of that.

And I've just realised he used red and black tape, not brown and blue.

Owain

The PC probably has a Class 1 power supply and the earth provides back
up in the (unlikely) event that the "basic" (as defined in EN60950)
insulation in the PSU should fail.

Earth leakage due to EMC filtering Y-caps and the like will be quite
low - maximum permitted under EN60950 is 3.5mA - well below the trip
level of an RCD.

No piece of home/office equipment should be relying on the earth
connection to make it safe under normal operating conditions.

regards
Charlie

On Thu, 22 Sep 2005 12:42:36 +0100, Owain
 wrote:


>Andrew Gabriel wrote:
>> The danger in handling live tails is not so much directly
>> from electrocution as it is from flash burns if you should
>> happen to accidentally short out the meter tails. ...
>
>The man who changed my eletcricity meter took great care to bend the 
>live tail well out of the way.
>
>I don't know why he didn't just pull the service fuse though, I do.
>
>> (exposed skin covered,
>> at least eye and preferably full face protection).
>
>None of that.
>
>And I've just realised he used red and black tape, not brown and blue.
>

Just a few minutes ago I had a wander around Homebase (looking for a
bell-push), and noticed that all their T+E cable is still in the old
colours :-)

-- 
Frank Erskine